Mini 771 - Mafia in Ludd: Game Over

[Incognito]

Incog, given your particularly juicy piece of information pertaining to Yos2, why do you abstain from actually taking some kind of stance on him?

Just because my vote isn't on him doesn't mean I haven't taken a stance. If I pointed out that kind of information, I think it's a pretty good assumption that I'm probably not buying the claim, but I want to hear his excuse anyway before lending my vote to the wagon.

I guess Incog is right; she's probably scum; town Ether generally knows better then this.

Vote:Ether

Where did I ever say that Ether was scum? I've pretty clearly stated that I think Ether's town. Also why did you ignore my 186?

=======================

Page 9 Votecount

camn (1/7): Korts,
charter (0/7):
DizzyIzzyB13 (1/7): Incognito,
Ether (1/7): Yosarian2
Green Crayons (0/7):
Incognito (0/7):
Korts (0/7):
OhGodMyLife (0/7):
Patrick (1/7): Xdaamno
skitzer (0/7):
Xdaamno (2/7): Green Crayons, Patrick
Yosarian2 (4/7): OhGodMyLife, camn, charter, Ether

Not voting (2/12):

skitzer, DizzyIzzyB13,

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Countdown To Deadline
============================

[Korts]

unvote

First, I don't think the point made there by Korts was valid at all -- it seemed pretty obvious to me that camn's first post was a joke so to me the vote lacked a lot of luster.

And did you consider my point on camn any more serious than camn's initial randomvote reason?

The stuff he wrote about Ether just gave me a (deep breath) "I'm poss-scum who doesn't quite know what to say yet so I'll ask a silly question that I probably already know the answer to in an effort to make myself seem active" vibe.

This interpretation is the most forced you can possibly get. my orignal question was something like "do you consider Incog confirming late scummy?" (I'm on a train without access, so I have no way to dig up the original), and while yes, I suspected there was an answer to that, you dismiss the fact that there was not much else in the way of discussion at that point.

I'm getting a scummy read off Incognito based purely on things up to page 4. I will get back to this after page 5.

unvote, vote Dizzy
You just said you that it's untrue that you aren't scumhunting, then in the next sentence say you haven't added anything. Instead of adding something, you just come back with that post (which just seems like an "I'm here" post and don't ask anyone questions or nothing). I also looked back at your posts, you haven't asked anyone any probing questions or nothing (I guess that falls under not scumhunting) but you've talked about skitzer not confirming at length. Why is skitzer's confirmation time more interesting than questioning people?

This is page 4 - you think not scumhunting yet is unusual? She hardly talked about it "at length", anyway, and that wouldn't be a scum tell if so - it was the very start of the game, so it's not unnatural to talk about things like that.

I don't like Xdaamno's defense of Izzy, especially because charter had a very good point--Izzy, in 90, denies the accusation of lack of scumhunting, but admits to having done close to nothing to form her opinions. Also, page arguments are lame, especially considering the amount of text this game has already generated by this point.

Re: Korts' post 78 - this explanation is fair, but I think you're spending too much time on your meta fishing trip with GC and I worry that you might be trying to hide behind it.

I am not planning on doing any more meta research on GC, his reply satisfied me.

This is what I have right now, I know, stepping on it.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I do not like this miller claim one bit. Yos is a skilled enough player to be able to avoid suspicion if he wants to, without needing to claim at this point. It makes no sense to me.

[Xdaamno]

I think claiming miller day one

in your very first post

is the right move to make as miller. If you don't, you're better off just being pro town and hoping you don't get investigated.

That's dumb, though. It dosn't make any difference if you claim "in your first post" or if you claim a little later in the day at all, so long as you claim before the first night.

I was going to wait until the game stalled, or I had a chance to get a good reaction, or something, but screw it; I can never resists a good streight line like that. Still, dosn't matter; there is absolutly no difference between claiming miller "in the first post" or doing it some other time before the end of the day. And "hoping I don't get investigated" would be a stupid move for me.

Yeah, I agree with GC. I don't think Yos truly believes there is "absolutely no difference" between claiming now and claiming earlier, or even claiming later today. Your insistence that this would be a stupid scum move also seems a little off, because of the WIFOM.

[Incognito]

Incognito in Post 86: I almost feel that DizzyIzzy time is currently being taken up because he's still be hounded on for his vote on me. It almost seems like you are picking on him.

On the DizzyIzzy case: It doesn't make sense to me. People are attacking her for not scumhunting when she's been busy answering questions.

First things first, DizzyIzzy is a

she

(I see you got the right in the second quote)

.

Second, yeah, you didn't know? I'm the big bad town bully. /sarcasm

I don't think fielding questions and/or attacks should

exempt

someone from making an attempt to do some actual scum-hunting. I personally have been asked questions in this game, fielded attacks in this game, and have still made an effort to try and figure people out in this game, and I've done similar in past games too. All of this is simply a part of playing the game of Mafia -- if she's not doing so, I think it's perfectly fair for me to assume that she might be scum for not doing so. Also, your interpretation of events doesn't factor in the fact that DizzyIzzy herself mentioned that her typical method of scum-hunting is to wait around for the right moment to ask the key question. She compared this to some blunderbus and sniper rifle technique. I haven't done the meta-analysis to determine if what she's saying is factual, but it surprises me that you're accusing me of bullying her for not asking questions when she herself pretty much openly admitted to not doing so

and

suggested that this is her typical method of scum-hunting. Please rationalize this.


On to Korts...

First, I don't think the point made there by Korts was valid at all -- it seemed pretty obvious to me that camn's first post was a joke so to me the vote lacked a lot of luster.

And did you consider my point on camn any more serious than camn's initial randomvote reason?

Yes.

Are you now suggesting that it wasn't?

The stuff he wrote about Ether just gave me a (deep breath) "I'm poss-scum who doesn't quite know what to say yet so I'll ask a silly question that I probably already know the answer to in an effort to make myself seem active" vibe.

This interpretation is the most forced you can possibly get. my orignal question was something like "do you consider Incog confirming late scummy?" (I'm on a train without access, so I have no way to dig up the original), and while yes, I suspected there was an answer to that, you dismiss the fact that there was not much else in the way of discussion at that point.

Since you're on a train, I'll do the legwork for you:

I don't see why being late to confirm would be any kind of scumtell. You're saying that you really think the opposite, Ether?

The above quote came after Ether made a total of 4 posts following her serious page 1 vote on me.

- The first post very clearly mentioned that her vote was serious.
- The second post very clearly explained her issue with me.
- The third post very clearly seemed like an attempt to garner some support from camn.
- And the fourth post very clearly stated that she doesn't bother with joke-votes.

So tell me, which of the four posts made you think that Ether wasn't serious about her vote on me?

I'm getting a scummy read off Incognito based purely on things up to page 4. I will get back to this after page 5.

I really look forward to this.

[Green Crayons]

Your insistence that this would be a stupid scum move also seems a little off, because of the WIFOM.

Question: If you were to evaluate Yos' action in a vaccum void of all WIFOM, would you find that action to be innately scummy, innately miller-town or neither?

[OhGodMyLife]

Did anybody read my play? Its actually a PBPA of Yos up to the miller claim, dressed up in AWESOME.

[Green Crayons]

Did anybody read my play? Its actually a PBPA of Yos up to the miller claim, dressed up in AWESOME.

I'll begin by joining the growing chorus of people who find Green Crayons to be strikingly town.

And devilishly handsome

.

Didn't escape

my

notice!

My initial response is that OGML's issue with Yos' claim had more legitimacy to it than camn who seemed to be pulling a "policy lynch" excuse for her vote (whereas OGML explained why this was more than a "lynch the miller" - more of a "lynch this specific claimed miller whose previous play and timing are highly suspect" - vote), and Ether who used OGML's reasoning as a rubber stamp for her vote. Ether's 192 just really doesn't sit well with me; it's like she isn't trying. Or that she's trying not to try. Or something.

charter's assertions in 197 are bogus.

I see where OGML is coming from in terms of his suspicions, but I seriously can't see scum-Yos pulling this stupid fake claim out of his ass on page eight. I've thought it over and the only way that this would be a gutsy but potentially excellent gambit - assuming that it would work - is if he's NK immune (thus his throw away comment to the vig targetting him). That's seriously the only potential scenario where such a fake claim could have

any

tangible payoff whatsoever. I just really don't know why else he would be a scum claiming miller at this point in time.

That said, if Yos does die at some point and turns town, camn and Ether will have some extra suspicion marks beneath their name.
If Yos does die at some point and turns scum, charter will be accompanied with some new suspicion marks. But Ether's vote/Yos' OMGUS would still sit uncomfortable with me in such a situation. I just really don't like Ether's 192 for some reason.

[Incognito]

GC, your take on 186?

[Patrick]

Wow. I too want Yosarian to respond to Incognito's quote from Mafia Discussion, but I'm having real trouble seeing why he'd fakeclaim like that as scum. I think he'd be clever enough to realise as scum that he'd pull considerable suspicion despite his defence of "why would I do this as scum?". About the only benefit I could see would be to try and explain away a potential guilty on him later by getting the claim out early, but that seems like a tiny benefit compared to the suspicion he's picked up. The speed of the attacks/suspicion doesn't sit well with me. I'm most surprised by Ether and Incognito actually, who tend to follow my lines of thought most of the time. I agree that Yosarian didn't do much before the claim, but why do you guys think this is more likely to come from scum than a real miller?

OGML's conclusion in 189/190 seems pretty counter-intuitive if he's suggesting what I think he is. I also don't like Kort's catchup so far.

[OhGodMyLife]

OGML's conclusion in 189/190 seems pretty counter-intuitive if he's suggesting what I think he is.

What, you mean suggesting that you're scum with Yosarian?

What exactly doesn't sit well with you about Incognito's stated suspicions. His seem the most well founded out of anything, since he brought in a quote from MD which would seem to indicate that this is, in fact, NOT how Yosarian would play town miller. The only thing that doesn't sit well about Incog for me is the fact that he still hasn't voted Yos.

[OhGodMyLife]

GC (and others), you're WIFOMing yourself by saying that this isn't a move scum-yos would make because of the heat it inevitably draws.

Lets go through possible thought processes for Yosarian2 here for a second.

Yosarian2 as town miller - *follows the MD prescribed Town Miller strategy, approved by Yosarian2, conveniently researched and presented by Incogntio here in the thread*

Yosarian2 as scum - *gets paranoid about how often he draws investigations on a regular basis, combined with what even he could probably tell was sub par play, and a higher than average player caliber surrounding him, decides claiming miller and banking on the WIFOM-o-licious

why would Yosarian2 scum claim miller

reaction to get him out of a lynch.*

Also, I really don't see why everyone is assuming the presence of a vig in the setup, or at the least assuming the vig can't be one of the people who are apparently snookered by the seemingly illogical scum move of claiming miller here.

[OhGodMyLife]

Finally, re: charter's ultra strange defending-Yosarian-by-way-of-attacking-my-vote-but-still-voting-Yos move, see Green Crayons' response for an explanation of why my vote is not in fact a policy vote.

[Patrick]

I have a thought on the MD post, but want him to explain himself.

What exactly doesn't sit well with you about Incognito's stated suspicions. His seem the most well founded out of anything, since he brought in a quote from MD which would seem to indicate that this is, in fact, NOT how Yosarian would play town miller. The only thing that doesn't sit well about Incog for me is the fact that he still hasn't voted Yos.

It's more surprise than suspicion of him actually. Why are you bothered by the fact he hasn't voted?

[Green Crayons]

Incog: I'm awaiting a Yos response before I make any final judgments on that front - but from a kneejerk reaction it looks less than stellar, for obvious reasons. I am glad you found that, though because I would like an explanation.

[OhGodMyLife]

Given the obvious disparity between Yos' stated position in MD and his course of action here, Incog seems to have brought forward by far the strongest basis for a vote out of anyone here, and yet he's the one who refrains. I guess I need a refresher course on the old Incognito Meta, but this seems overcautious.

[camn]

Yosarian2 as scum - *gets paranoid about how often he draws investigations on a regular basis, combined with what even he could probably tell was sub par play, and a higher than average player caliber surrounding him, decides claiming miller and banking on the WIFOM-o-licious

why would Yosarian2 scum claim miller

reaction to get him out of a lynch.*

This x 100.
Plus, Yosarian thinking "I have played 100s of games, yawn.... I wonder if I can pull this off? If I can, then I win, and = legend."

[Incognito]

I agree that Yosarian didn't do much before the claim, but why do you guys think this is more likely to come from scum than a real miller?

Partially because of 186 and partially because this is Yosarian2 we're talking about. If this was some brand spanking new MS player, I might be thinking exactly along the same lines as you. If Yosarian2 was town I think he'd know better than this, and the fact that he commented on everyone else's reaction post except mine which points out an obvious inconsistency between what he said here and what he mentioned in a completely unbiased forum of discussion in MD makes me think he might be scum who realized he botched up his claim.

I'm wonder when the last time Yosarian2 was a miller because comparing what Yos2 said here:

Note I did the same thing last time I was a miller.

...to what he said in the MD thread (date stamp of the post is

February 1st of this year

for everyone's reference):

(shrug) The one time I was a miller, I didn't claim miller

...either Yosarian2 has been Miller once again in the past two (2) months, or he's lying somewhere.

@OGML:

Incog-meta 101

- Your game Mini 594 - Satin Doll Showdown. Erg0 claimed Miller when it was blazingly obvious that obvcop scotmany12 had investigated him. Note that I didn't vote Erg0 until we prolonged the day and gained more information from it.

The day's still young here, we're only a week in, and deadlines are set for three weeks. I think we can get plenty more out of this, and I'd like to keep my vote off Yos2 at this point to use for other purposes and to keep the discussion going. If you want to use this as a scum-tell against me, I really don't care.

[OhGodMyLife]

@OGML:

Incog-meta 101

- Your game Mini 594 - Satin Doll Showdown. Erg0 claimed Miller when it was blazingly obvious that obvcop scotmany12 had investigated him. Note that I didn't vote Erg0 until we prolonged the day and gained more information from it.

The day's still young here, we're only a week in, and deadlines are set for three weeks. I think we can get plenty more out of this, and I'd like to keep my vote off Yos2 at this point to use for other purposes and to keep the discussion going. If you want to use this as a scum-tell against me, I really don't care.

I'm of the opinion that once a scum is caught, as the case would seem to be with Yosarian2, further discussion on the day will only be fraught with WIFOM. Its everything that happens

before

it becomes clear one of the scum is going down in flames that really matters. I'm also not one to drag out a day just because "there's X days left til deadline, we still have time for more discussion."

But thanks for clearing things up, it helps to know that you're town.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Can we get a vote count, please?

[Xdaamno]

Your insistence that this would be a stupid scum move also seems a little off, because of the WIFOM.

Question: If you were to evaluate Yos' action in a vaccum void of all WIFOM, would you find that action to be innately scummy, innately miller-town or neither?

That particular action would be nulled, because I was pointing out the WIFOM. The point I made immediately before that would not be. Plus, there's always a possibility he was running some kind of gambit, so I was trying to probe a little further.

[Yosarian2]

I disagree with Yos that the placement of his claim within the day has absolutely no impact on our perception of his claim. The very fact that it has impacted my perception proves that this is false.

Oh, sure it has an impact; i was just saying that OGML's rule ("miller MUST claim start of day 1, or NEVER CLAIM AT ALL!!!11!") is foolish, since as far as preventing a wasted cop investigaton goes, it dosn't matter when during day 1 the miller claims.

That said, I think the reasons for Yos revealing miller status are lame and short-sighted (and a bit self-centered).

(shrug) I've come to the conclusion that claiming miller day 1 is generally a good idea, since a miller claim really dosn't do much harm to the town, while an unclaimed miller is a huge threat to the town; if a cop outs himself on day 2 in order to get a townie lynched, the odds of the town winning go way down.

[Yosarian2]

Where did I ever say that Ether was scum? I've pretty clearly stated that I think Ether's town. Also why did you ignore my 186?

Ah, I missed that; I just made a couple of quick posts 5:30 this morning in the few minutes I have before work.

ANyway, that game I was talking about in that thread happened a long time ago.

[Yosarian2]

(shrug) The one time I was a miller, I didn't claim miller

...either Yosarian2 has been Miller once again in the past two (2) months, or he's lying somewhere.

Oh, yeah, it was a marathon day game; I played the miller role pretty much the exact same way I've played here, and it helped the town win. Here, let me find it:

viewtopic.php?t=11047&postdays=0&postor ... &&start=25

[Green Crayons]

X: What?

I don't understand your response. Evaluated in a vaccum which is to be void of WIFOM, you think Yos' action of claiming miller on page 8 without enormous amounts of suspicion directed towards him is null because of WIFOM?

Do you see where I'm becoming confused? I want to know if you think the action in and of itself is scummy/townie/neither, not how Yos is (potentially) abusing our perception of that action through the use of WIFOM.


Preview shows Yos responses. Want to read links provided before commenting.