Mini 771 - Mafia in Ludd: Game Over

[Incognito]

Hmmmmmmm........ Ether's spreading lies

(scummy)

but at the same time she's being witty/clever

(townish)

. I'M TORN!

I'll just

vote: Patrick

. He has never been scum in any game I've been in, we've been in 5+ games together, so I'd say he's due.

[Incognito]

Ah, so Ether's vote is serious. Well, allow me to dispel your fears then. Going through my sent messages, I actually confirmed with vollkan on Sunday, March 29th at 8 P.M. EST while I was away on my trip to Canada. You can see that I even opened the thread to my Newbie Game shortly thereafter. Anything else, miss?

[Incognito]

Your link weakens my point, but doesn't entirely counteract it--your access was still more limited than that of the rest of the cast.

... the natural inclination of the human brain to recognize patterns even where none exist.

This. ^^^

Perhaps we should take a poll and find out who

else

had limited access this weekend. The fact that you know I had limited access makes this seem like a valid argument to you when in fact it's not.

Green Crayons, why did you completely ignore Ether's assertion that her vote was serious and proceed to place a joke vote without commenting on anything else?

[Incognito]

Mmmm. Despite the fact that camn referenced her meta-history with charter in her first post (which might make one believe that the vote was slightly more serious than first votes tend to come), the general feel of the vote definitely gave me the impression that her opening post was made in jest. camn's 33 only served to reaffirm this viewpoint for me and all additional posts made by her about the charter-subject seemed to be written by her at the request of other people. That's the way I read it at least, so I don't completely understand the camn-hate.

---

Green Crayons, "joke vote", "random vote", "arbitrary vote", "opening vote"... it's all synonymous to me. Apologies for the ego-bruising but yeah, that's how I do.

Bad logic behind her vote.

vote: Yos

.

End of the list.

You're seriously expecting logic behind an opening vote? Like for

serious

?

---

Unvote

, Since we seem to be taking things seriously now.

Yeah, I'm taking this slightly out of context but this still strikes me as odd. What did you make of the page 1 discussion put forth by Ether? You continued to joke around about the topic of "mith's minions" and "bacon". Was Ether's vote and reasons behind her vote on me not serious enough for you? Why was an unvote not warranted at that time?

---

There's something about Korts's 23 that I really dislike. I can't quite put my finger around it otherwise I'd elaborate further, but I'll try and do so if it comes to me.

[Incognito]

Green Crayons, according to you, the logic you used to base your vote on Yosarian2 was the fact that he was on the end of the [player] list. You then added that because he still hadn't posted within the thread since you placed your vote, this gave you more reason to consider your vote logically valid. The issue I have with this is unless you're a

psychic

(ha ha I crack myself up)

you couldn't have possibly known that Yosarian2 wasn't gonna post after you placed your vote on him. The fact that you've now twice reaffirmed this fact (that Yosarian2 had yet to make a post) makes me feel like you're using after-the-fact justification to show why your vote is more logically sound and therefore better than camn's.

In response to the second half of your response, can you point to the camn-posts that made you feel like she was becoming "defensive"? I got the feeling that she was annoyed by you, maybe that she even

disliked

you, but not that she became defensive. I'm curious as to why your read of her actions differs from mine.

One person being serious does not mean the game is taking a turn for the serious.

Errr... but wasn't it Green Crayons's argument against camn that made you think that the game was turning for the serious? That seems like a single person to me. Like Ether also seems like a single person to me. Do you have a habit of unvoting when the game leaves random and becomes serious?

[Incognito]

You are my favorite again.
Xylthixm is out.

<3

[Incognito]

DizzyIzzy: I see your point now about the "random" stage, I guess, and how it wasn't just based on GC's argument against camn. As for the second part about unvoting, I don't think with a game this size and especially with the skill level of this group of players you need to worry about something crazy happening like an accidental lynch if you left an unattended vote out there.

I think it's interesting you think she was annoyed with me because I was asking her to explain herself. Do you think that was an appropriate reaction in a mafia game - to dislike people who ask you questions?

Possibly.

I think it's all about tone. If a person feels like you're being rude or condescending, he or she might be more likely to dislike you, not be cooperative with you, and not provide you with the answer you're looking for, which I think can happen independent of the alignment of the person answering the question. It's probably all about context -- camn's word choice ("combative") in post 30 made me think she wasn't being defensive but just put off by the tone you were using to question her.

@charter:

In 26, she never said she was seriously pushing for your lynch as if you were scum with her vote -- just that in her experience you tend to appear scummy as town. Basically, I took 26 to be a continuation of the joke she began in her opening post that continued because Korts questioned and voted her for the meta-backed joke vote she made on page 1.

---

Hmmm... where's OGML?

[Incognito]

Hi, Brian.

Incog's post 34 is defending camn almost too blatantly.

No.

She defended herself prior to that post. I was giving my interpretation of the events; ya know, sharing my thoughts. It's good to do that sometimes.

It seems to me that Incog is trying to undermine a valid point made by Korts in 23 with nothing more than bad vibes.

First, I don't think the point made there by Korts was valid at all -- it seemed pretty obvious to me that camn's first post was a joke so to me the vote lacked a lot of luster. Second, why do you assume that those "bad vibes" only related to what he said about camn? Basically, it's hard for me to articulate in a meaningful way what it is I found wrong about Korts's opening post. The stuff he wrote about Ether just gave me a (deep breath) "I'm poss-scum who doesn't quite know what to say yet so I'll ask a silly question that I probably already know the answer to in an effort to make myself seem active" vibe. That's a mouthful and is largely speculative so I'd rather wait to see more from Korts before acting on it or elaborating on it. Third, what Patrick said -- my meta on you suggests that you tend to be a gut player when town so why would vibes bring you cause for concern?

OGML: For having such a self-described "detailed" first post, why the lack of any (direct) reason given for the Patrick vote?

This is a valid question. For a moment there, I thought the post was gonna conclude with a Korts-vote or even a charter-vote so I was a bit surprised to see a Pat-vote instead.

I'm already pretty sure Ether and Green Crayons are town.

I agree on Ether; GC, eh, not so much.

---

DizzyIzzy isn't scum hunting.

Unvote
Vote: DizzyIzzyB13

[Incognito]

Untrue. I just

yet

to have anything concrete to add. I have

yet

to get a sense of how people are playing in this game. So far, I've

yet

to really agree with any of the accusations of scumminess and I've found the particular attacks to be less that scummy. Sorry if the fact that I have

yet

to form firm enough opinions on the game makes me seem scummy.

That's a lot of "yets".

Would you agree or disagree with me when I say that >70% of your posts have been in response to things directed at you and not many have seemed to take the initiative to figure people out? If so, I'd call that not scum hunting.

@Xdaamno's 93:

Does it bother you that I too called out DizzyIzzy for not scum hunting by page 4? What's the difference between my calling her out for this and charter's?

Well why didn't you just say so in the first place? As for agreeing with Patrick re: my stance on "vibes," see above.

Because at the time, I knew

something

felt off about it but I couldn't put my finger on what it was that did. Since you commented on it in your opening post, I thought about what it was I thought was off about it and mentioned it. I still feel like there's even more to it than that but yeah.

(It also kinda serves a secondary function of determining who's actually

reading

my posts, which is kinda cool.)

[Incognito]

While I think both are leaning town, I think Dizzy is more firmly in the town camp than Ether at this point. So stick that in your pipe. (<3)

wut

[Incognito]

I haven't read through the text walls yet but I have two questions which have been left outstanding by none other than the text wallers!:

@Xdaamno's 93:

Does it bother you that I too called out DizzyIzzy for not scum hunting by page 4? What's the difference between my calling her out for this and charter's?

While I think both are leaning town, I think Dizzy is more firmly in the town camp than Ether at this point. So stick that in your pipe. (<3)

wut

(The second one was 'txt tlk' for the word "what?", as in elaborate on these reads, plz.)

[Incognito]

Reading through recent stuff as best as I could, I don't find Xdaamno's "lack of an unvote despite finding Patrick's reaction to his vote town-ish" to be that bad. I know that there have been times where I've had a vote on someone that I didn't necessarily think was doing much anymore, and I didn't bother to remove it simply because I couldn't find anyone else or anything else interesting enough to move it to, so I'd leave it where it is for the time being because I think having a vote in a certain location is usually better than having it remaining in the "Not Voting" column. I'd like to see Xdaamno's thoughts about other people.

Did we ever get a response to this:

As I said above, I'll now try and explain why I thought this post was town. The "this is just the way I post" defense is something I think I see quite a lot. It completely misses the point, but I can just put myself in the shoes of a town player being confused at why they are being attacked. I feel a scum player would not react in this way, because defensiveness would typically be a more dominant emotion than confusion is such a situation, IMO.

Can you explain how I missed the point? You say my phrases might indicate a scum alignment, I tell you it indicates nothing, what did I miss? I know that aren't trying to get me to change the way I post.

Also, what's your take on GC?

I saw it quoted along the bottom of 131, but I didn't see any kind of reply to it. I'm interested in the bolded blue portion in particular.

It's weird actually -- I just get the feeling that Xdaamno wasn't really reading the thread that closely (if at all) up until he entered the massive argument with Green Crayons. The fact that he

a)

missed my question about my Dizzy-vote,

b)

missed Patrick's question about his issue with his questioning of OGML, and

c)

the two posts he called people out for (Patrick's 85 in Xdaamno's 88 and charter's 92 in Xdaamno's 93) were two of the most recent posts made when Xdaamno finally decided to begin posting again following his initial post all strongly suggest this.

@Xdaamno:

Have you read any portion of the thread prior to when you entered this argument with GC? Any thoughts on that stuff?

---

I'll make a separate post about other things if I feel the need to right now. I don't want to get too lengthy at this time.

[Incognito]

Other stuff:

-~- DizzyIzzy's Korts-read scares the shit out of me.
-~- camn, Ether, and to a lesser extent charter seem townish. (camn and Ether are meta-reads; charter's more of a "having certain intangibles" read).
-~- I really, really, really wanna add Patrick here but it worries me that he didn't give me those instant town vibes that I'm used to receiving from him in past games we've played. I'm wondering if that's because he's been out of action for awhile or if he's just scum for once.
-~- It sucks that most everyone else seems to be in the "to be determined" bin.

Mod:

Could you prod skitzer if you haven't already?

[Incognito]

@Xdaamno:

Have you read any portion of the thread prior to when you entered this argument with GC? Any thoughts on that stuff?

Yes, of course. If I notice anything interesting, you'll be the first to know.

Errr. Okay. And the answer to the GC question is?

Other stuff:

-~- DizzyIzzy's Korts-read scares the shit out of me.

How so?

Your read of him just differs from mine. The fact that you found something "pro-town" about him disturbs me. I have him down as neutral leaning scummy.

[Incognito]

Did we ever get a response to this:

Also, what's your take on GC?

[Incognito]

If you think he's town and if you're town, why would you want people to choose sides on your back-and-forths?:

Actually, you know, I would be fine if you just read a few of our back-and-forth points before you took sides, because I honestly believe I have defeated each and every argument he has presented.

[Incognito]

^^^ @Xdaamno, obv.

[Incognito]

I'll have more later specifically directed at skitzer, but Yos2, how do your thoughts currently match what you mentioned in the Miller-claiming MD thread, specifically in this post:

(shrug) The one time I was a miller, I didn't claim miller, although I breadcrumbed it heavily, on the theory that if I claimed miller town would probably waste a lynch on me, whereas if I didn't, scum might kill me and/or cop might not investigate me; basically, the goal of my play that game was to try and play in such a way so that the cop wouldn't investigate me.

Do you still feel the same way? If not, why?

[Incognito]

Incog, given your particularly juicy piece of information pertaining to Yos2, why do you abstain from actually taking some kind of stance on him?

Just because my vote isn't on him doesn't mean I haven't taken a stance. If I pointed out that kind of information, I think it's a pretty good assumption that I'm probably not buying the claim, but I want to hear his excuse anyway before lending my vote to the wagon.

I guess Incog is right; she's probably scum; town Ether generally knows better then this.

Vote:Ether

Where did I ever say that Ether was scum? I've pretty clearly stated that I think Ether's town. Also why did you ignore my 186?

=======================

Page 9 Votecount

camn (1/7): Korts,
charter (0/7):
DizzyIzzyB13 (1/7): Incognito,
Ether (1/7): Yosarian2
Green Crayons (0/7):
Incognito (0/7):
Korts (0/7):
OhGodMyLife (0/7):
Patrick (1/7): Xdaamno
skitzer (0/7):
Xdaamno (2/7): Green Crayons, Patrick
Yosarian2 (4/7): OhGodMyLife, camn, charter, Ether

Not voting (2/12):

skitzer, DizzyIzzyB13,

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Countdown To Deadline
============================

[Incognito]

Incognito in Post 86: I almost feel that DizzyIzzy time is currently being taken up because he's still be hounded on for his vote on me. It almost seems like you are picking on him.

On the DizzyIzzy case: It doesn't make sense to me. People are attacking her for not scumhunting when she's been busy answering questions.

First things first, DizzyIzzy is a

she

(I see you got the right in the second quote)

.

Second, yeah, you didn't know? I'm the big bad town bully. /sarcasm

I don't think fielding questions and/or attacks should

exempt

someone from making an attempt to do some actual scum-hunting. I personally have been asked questions in this game, fielded attacks in this game, and have still made an effort to try and figure people out in this game, and I've done similar in past games too. All of this is simply a part of playing the game of Mafia -- if she's not doing so, I think it's perfectly fair for me to assume that she might be scum for not doing so. Also, your interpretation of events doesn't factor in the fact that DizzyIzzy herself mentioned that her typical method of scum-hunting is to wait around for the right moment to ask the key question. She compared this to some blunderbus and sniper rifle technique. I haven't done the meta-analysis to determine if what she's saying is factual, but it surprises me that you're accusing me of bullying her for not asking questions when she herself pretty much openly admitted to not doing so

and

suggested that this is her typical method of scum-hunting. Please rationalize this.


On to Korts...

First, I don't think the point made there by Korts was valid at all -- it seemed pretty obvious to me that camn's first post was a joke so to me the vote lacked a lot of luster.

And did you consider my point on camn any more serious than camn's initial randomvote reason?

Yes.

Are you now suggesting that it wasn't?

The stuff he wrote about Ether just gave me a (deep breath) "I'm poss-scum who doesn't quite know what to say yet so I'll ask a silly question that I probably already know the answer to in an effort to make myself seem active" vibe.

This interpretation is the most forced you can possibly get. my orignal question was something like "do you consider Incog confirming late scummy?" (I'm on a train without access, so I have no way to dig up the original), and while yes, I suspected there was an answer to that, you dismiss the fact that there was not much else in the way of discussion at that point.

Since you're on a train, I'll do the legwork for you:

I don't see why being late to confirm would be any kind of scumtell. You're saying that you really think the opposite, Ether?

The above quote came after Ether made a total of 4 posts following her serious page 1 vote on me.

- The first post very clearly mentioned that her vote was serious.
- The second post very clearly explained her issue with me.
- The third post very clearly seemed like an attempt to garner some support from camn.
- And the fourth post very clearly stated that she doesn't bother with joke-votes.

So tell me, which of the four posts made you think that Ether wasn't serious about her vote on me?

I'm getting a scummy read off Incognito based purely on things up to page 4. I will get back to this after page 5.

I really look forward to this.

[Incognito]

GC, your take on 186?

[Incognito]

I agree that Yosarian didn't do much before the claim, but why do you guys think this is more likely to come from scum than a real miller?

Partially because of 186 and partially because this is Yosarian2 we're talking about. If this was some brand spanking new MS player, I might be thinking exactly along the same lines as you. If Yosarian2 was town I think he'd know better than this, and the fact that he commented on everyone else's reaction post except mine which points out an obvious inconsistency between what he said here and what he mentioned in a completely unbiased forum of discussion in MD makes me think he might be scum who realized he botched up his claim.

I'm wonder when the last time Yosarian2 was a miller because comparing what Yos2 said here:

Note I did the same thing last time I was a miller.

...to what he said in the MD thread (date stamp of the post is

February 1st of this year

for everyone's reference):

(shrug) The one time I was a miller, I didn't claim miller

...either Yosarian2 has been Miller once again in the past two (2) months, or he's lying somewhere.

@OGML:

Incog-meta 101

- Your game Mini 594 - Satin Doll Showdown. Erg0 claimed Miller when it was blazingly obvious that obvcop scotmany12 had investigated him. Note that I didn't vote Erg0 until we prolonged the day and gained more information from it.

The day's still young here, we're only a week in, and deadlines are set for three weeks. I think we can get plenty more out of this, and I'd like to keep my vote off Yos2 at this point to use for other purposes and to keep the discussion going. If you want to use this as a scum-tell against me, I really don't care.

[Incognito]

Yosarian2, as GC implied, I think the scenario for where you claimed Miller in the Marathon Day game that you linked to was certainly much more warranted than the scenario that we have here. If you really are town here, I think your claim is extremely sloppy and very poorly thought out, and I strongly suggest you shape up your play in a major way otherwise you almost certainly will get mislynched.

It worked in the marathon game, plus I believe the meta has shifted, to a point where a miller claiming miller is a much more viable option then it would have been in the 2006 meta, in the game I was talking about in that thread.

In what way do you believe the meta has shifted specifically? If you're telling the truth about being a miller, I personally think the more appropriate action would have been the one you suggested within the MD thread, so I'm curious as to why you feel otherwise.

Plus, I didn't have this horrible little "best manipulater" paranoia-inducing tag attached to my name back then, so I wasn't anywhere near as likely to draw random cop investigations as I am now.

This seems plausible. I remember you mentioning something in MD about how you get mislynched more often now because of the scummy you received.

As for your Ether-read:

Actually, she

did

comment on your Miller claim:

I'mma

unvote; vote: Yosarian2

. Filtering his posts, there's just not a lot there.

And I hate the claim.

(I don't think Incognito is scum. The Patrick/Yosarian connection is too blatant for my tastes as well.)

In fact, in the post where you actually went ahead and placed your vote on her, you acknowledged this and used it as

reason

to switch your vote to her:

Hmm. Surprising,

Ether was the one person I didn't think would vote for me on a knee jerk reaction just because I'm a miller.

I guess Incog is right; she's probably scum; town Ether generally knows better then this.

Vote:Ether

And now in your most recent post, you use the fact that

she didn't comment on your claim

as one of the reasons to give her a 60% scum read? Which is it exactly: because she used your claim as part of her reason to vote you or because she didn't comment on it? Those two reasons are on completely opposite ends of the spectrum.

Separate post for other stuff as this one's getting long.

[Incognito]

skitzer:

If you want actual replies to stuff, can you please format your posts differently? There's no way I'm going back to each of those posts to see what it is you're talking about just by you giving the post numbers. Unless of course, that's your intention in the first place...

OGML:

My linking to

one

town game where I handled a miller claim in a similar manner to here was enough for you to automatically write me off as town? Why?

camn in Post 112: This may sound weird, but I want to ask for a reason for your unvote. "You rule" just doesn't cut it for me.

GC was, and is, acting INCREDIBLY town. In my experience. . scum don't drop atom bombs on people day 1.

camn, this would be the case with your average, run-of-the-mill scum player, sure. But GC is actually fairly competent as scum (see Mini 692 - Boost Mafia) and could almost certainly drop atom bombs on people even on Day 1. I'd be extremely careful with drinking this type of wine.

[Incognito]

Catching up.

DizzyIzzy's 250 actually makes me feel even better about my vote. Her position on Yosarian2 seems extremely wishy-washy to me despite the fact that he's apparently "clearly ahead of anyone else in the suspect pool". Judging by her interpretation of his actions, I certainly wouldn't have been able to determine that she found him scummy from her post -- she seemed to lean town on him as she mentioned that she is "less likely to vote for him" since he's making sense. Her reasoning for suspecting Ether is terrible; I can't see how a person asking for a top three list from another person could be interpreted as "scum looking for consensus targets to bandwagon" when Ether has seemed to make it quite clear that she finds DizzyIzzy in particular scummy. Why would an Ether-scum ask for a top three from

someone who she considers scummy

in order to obtain a "consensus target"? That makes absolutely no sense.

I'd also like to note that her top two suspects just so happen to be the two people who are receiving the most attention at this time, and I don't think you can genuinely find both Ether and Yosarian2 at the same level of scumminess with one another considering the fact that the two of them have seemed to take opposing positions on one another. I'd think you either support one or the other or support neither of the two. The whole post looks really contrived to me.

Hm. That makes me feel better about your alignment.

What is it about DizzyIzzy's 250 that you found to

like

? I find it extremely odd that you had absolutely no comment on her critique of top three's and her using that to suspect Ether when I know from personal experience playing with you that you often ask

your own

top suspects to produce top three's in order to get a feel for where their suspicions lie and to see if their suspicions make sense and go in line with your own thinking. And you should definitely know that Ether has done this in past games as town as well. Explain please.

In response to your 260, the only time I've dealt with a claimed Miller who actually turned out to be a Miller was in Mini 635 - WOMAFIA. Lord Gurgi claimed Douchebag (Miller) in his opening post. Despite the fact that I had LG checked off as likely town for the remainder of the game, I found myself paranoid with him remaining alive closer and closer to end-game. I just think true Miller claims do more harm than good for the town since they allow scum to capitalize on the psychological WIFOM games that are inherent in townie paranoia. Perhaps I was a bit presumptuous when I said "if Yosarian2 was town I think he'd know better than this" since, now that I think about it and now that we've gotten answers from him, I do agree that claiming Miller as scum in the manner he did would probably be worse play for him as scum than as town, but I do hold by the belief that if he's telling the truth, his choice and the manner in which he claimed is terrible.

If I am scum, and I run up a townie[...]

Scum slip or a hypothetical?


I don't care for the top three Xdaamno <-> GC debate. It looks like a theory argument rather than something that can be used to gauge alignments. I will note however that even if Xdaamno dislikes top three's and prefers to state his suspicions in his posts using full reasoning, I still feel like I have absolutely no clue as to who he finds scummy at the moment, which does bother me.

[Incognito]

Yos2 & Patrick: Like I said above, I just think Miller claims bring about a lot of unnecessary townie paranoia. This is especially true considering the fact that the current meta with a lot of mods seems to instill a lot of Cop-hate anyway. WOMAFIA was a good example of this.

[Incognito]

Missed a part...

A much better reason to suspect Ether is the post she made voting Yosarian, and I'm surprised that you don't seem bothered by that at all.

I just don't see what was wrong with Ether's vote. The post in general struck me as very town-ish (making it a point to mention that she can't even see you or me as scum with Yosarian2 the way OGML suggested while voting Yos2), and I really don't interpret it as scum being opportunistic the way other people have seemed to.

You feel really off to me, Patrick. Are you scum here?

OGML:

OGML:

My linking to

one

town game where I handled a miller claim in a similar manner to here was enough for you to automatically write me off as town? Why?

Answer, plz?

[Incognito]

You saw that post as

townish

? I don't see how making those observations would be less likely to come from scum, especially if Yos2 is town, which I think he is. That whole post seems like a pretty easy one for a scum to make, actually.

Yes, I did. It made plenty of sense to me from a town perspective, especially if she genuinely thought Yosarian2 was scum due to the contradiction I pointed out from the MD thread. I'd like for her to defend herself though since that's not my territory to do so.

Your problem is that you're looking at it from the persopective that "Izzy suspects these people" not "Izzy finds these people the most suspicious". There's a difference. I don't support the lynch either of them right now. Just because they're the most suspicious people in the game, doesn't mean I necessarily think they're scum. I don't particularly believe anyone is supicious enough to be worth a vote yet. That should tell you enough to go on.

I don't see the difference between those two statements. My vote is on you right now but that doesn't necessarily mean I want you lynched right at this moment either. My vote is my indicator that I find your behavior suspicious and worthy of further attention. I assumed your top three meant similar, otherwise I can't see why you'd even produce one in the first place even if someone asked you to provide one. You'd just say "nobody's really suspicious enough to me at this time for me to be able to produce a top three".

You say "they're the most suspicious people in the game"... are you saying this from your own perspective or the town collective's perspective?

Silly, arbitrary and generally unhelpful except maybe to scum who are looking for something like I poosted from a person who has yet to form solid opinions of the game.

So do you think Ether hasn't formed solid opinions of the game yet? Also, do you honestly think a hypo-Ether-scum could logically demand a top three from a hypo-you-town, a person she "suspects", and then once she receives that top three, automatically use your top three to drive her own "suspicions"?

Can you also link to a recently completed game where you've been town? I can't seem to find any.

[Incognito]

I had like five other questions in my 288 that Izzy pretty much ignored. Nice.

X ignoring the last bit of Incog's 279 does not surprise me.

I noted this too, and he's been pretty consistent with his "ignorance" all game. Despite what he said, I really do get the feeling that he's not reading the thread, which is awful no matter his alignment. I'll need to do a meta-read of him to see if his self-described "always being lynched for looking scummy as town" matches up with his play here.


camn:

If I am scum, and I run up a townie[...]

Scum slip or a hypothetical?

I took this out of context, but I did want a response about this. It reminded me very closely of something you did in a previous game where you were scum.

Yos2's find on OGML is pretty good. I definitely second the call for a response from him on why his reaction to claimed Millers differs so drastically between the two games. I'm also not crazy about the fact that he's once again ignored my question about why he checked me off as town so quickly after I linked to only one previous game where I was town.

And we need a shitload of posts from a lot of people.

Korts, skitzer, charter, Ether:

let's pick up the pace here.

[Incognito]

DizzyIzzy's last few posts have been solid. I'm beginning to feel much better about her alignment actually lol. I'm beginning to think that this style of play of her's is more a function of her playstyle rather than scummy behavior. I also looked through some of her recently completed games as scum, and I noticed slight differences in them when compared to here. That said

unvote

.

Looking at Korts's posting history shows that he's actively posting elsewhere on the forums and isn't doing anything here. I've noticed a few people mention his name, and I mentioned having issues with him also so I think a

vote: Korts

is certainly warranted.

I did some digging through Xdaamno's recently completed games and noticed some interesting things there too. I'll try and make a post about it hopefully sometime tomorrow or on Monday while commenting on some of the more recent stuff too. It's my mom's birthday today and Easter tomorrow so I might be a bit busy.

[Incognito]

Xdaamno: I did indeed feel like your playstyle was very different. How did you determine that I would feel that way before I ever even said anything about it?

[Incognito]

Well, the only recently completed games I found of yours were town games really. I only found one recently completed game where you were scum but you replaced into that one really late. So if you're town in this particular game and you recognize that I'll find a very different playstyle here when compared to your past games that would mean you've made a conscious effort to change your pro-town play for whatever reason you've decided to. Or you could just be scum here and could be pre-emptively trying to shout that your playstyle changed since you yourself realize that your play as town and as scum is so dissimilar. That's why I asked.

OGML: I'm not ignoring your post -- I'll have comments about it by Monday.

[Incognito]

Double cross-post for the win.

[Incognito]

I try not to factor in Marathon-style play since I think it's dissimilar from the play required in regular games.

[Incognito]

OGML, you're right, I didn't comment on it, but I never used it as a point against you either. I basically just ignored it as one of the points in his case since again, I don't think it's valid. I remember Yosarian2 did the same thing where he compared my play in SPQR and dahill1's play in SPQR to our play in the meets we went to too, and...... well we both know how SPQR ended lol. So I'd say Yosarian2 trying to compare your play here to your RL play is either a null-tell or a slight town-tell and not worthy of commenting on. If other people began to use that point against you, I'd have brought it up. As it stands, it was only Yos2 who did.

[Incognito]

Mod:

I'm voting Korts

.

And after his last few posts, I feel awesome about it. More later.

[Incognito]

Three-part post coming up.

(

Part 1 of 3 - Response to OGML's super-massive post

)

I do admit that Yos2's 225 did bother me a bit. I can certainly see where OGML is coming from when he says it seems like Yos2 was appealing to my authority since, if he was attempting to push a case on someone (in this case Ether) as town, I'd expect him to address

everyone in the game

as to why he believes Ether is scum citing meta-examples or what-have-you that support his ideas for why he believes Ether's play differs here from her typical town play. Instead, he decided to focus on garnering

my

opinions on Ether and didn't seem entirely concerned with addressing anyone else with his Ether-case. It was also interesting that at the time of his post, I think I made it fairly clear that I was leaning against Yos2's claim, so his bringing up of Ether's meta and attempting to get my opinions on it could have been Yos's way of redirecting my attention onto someone other than him.

Does it change your opinions on anything going on?

I don't think so. I'm leaning towards believing the claim at this point. I'm not crazy about Yos2's play so far, but I'm leaning towards believing that Yos2's opinions on millers have changed since he made the post in MD and that maybe he's telling the truth here and is indeed a miller.

Part 2 is next...

[Incognito]

(

Part 2 of 3 - Xdaamno's (town) meta

)

I mainly looked through two recently completed games of Xdaamno's to get a general feel of what he plays like as town. I couldn't find any recently completed scum games of his outside of the games he played during Marathon Day and one where he replaced in really late.

Mini 725 - Mafia in Happiville

- I don't think you need to look through too much of this game to notice the differences between his style of play here and there. In 725, he seemed much more assertive, more aggressive, he actively scum-hunted, and seemed to address all or most of the concerns that came up towards him. In our voll-mod game here, I think the difference is quite dramatic: the only thing I really know about Xdaamno is that he thinks GC is town, he thought Patrick was scummy but then he thought he was town-ish, and... that's about it.

Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville

- This was the other game I looked into where he was town and was D1 lynched as town. Interestingly, I think his play in this particular game matches much more closely with the type of play we've been seeing here. He seemed more "on the sidelines" and distanced from everything and less likely to pay attention to what was going on or address points that were made against him.

Conclusions? Meh, it seems like there's two different Xdaamno's out there: One where he actually seems fairly competent and the other where he seems completely clueless and scummy.

I suppose you mean me?

I try not to post unless I have something useful to be doing, because it's actually an effort for me to not look scummy. I get lynched all the time.

In Mini 725, I certainly received a completely different feeling about your play than you led on in this quote. In fact, in that game you were NK-ed during Night 2. You mentioned a few posts back that you know that your playstyle has changed. Did you make a conscious effort to change your style of play into one that appears more scummy/non-contributive? Why did you seem to exhibit two completely different styles of play in these two games when they appeared to be running at the same time and where, in each case, you were aligned on the side of the town?

[Incognito]

(

Part 3 of 3 - Catching up to the recent

)

However, I still only see town vibes coming from her, so I don't understand all of the Dizzy hate except that it might be coming from opportunistic scumbags.

Who specifically do you think might be an opportunistic scumbag?

Dizzy-hate equated to me, Ether, and charter for the most part and you recently labeled me as "obvtown", Ether you had down as "leaning town", so I'm assuming that leaves charter?

Incog, nice way to avoid realposting. Please answer my questions.

No.

I'm curious as to why you want

me

specifically to respond to your questions when you previously mentioned that you were receiving a scummy vibe off of me. Now you want me to bring forth the points

I

find notable? Why would you trust the opinion of someone you consider scummy? I don't think you're being sincere here, and I think you're beginning to look a lot like lazy scum.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

DizzyIzzy, since you don't seem to believe in pressure votes and the like, I'm assuming you'd be willing to carry your Korts-vote to a lynch? Correct me if I'm wrong.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

I'm still waiting on these "issues" that both Korts and skitzer supposedly had about my play. Or does it take the both of you this long to manufacture suspicion?

[Incognito]

@skitzer:

Your statement that "lurky doesn't always necessarily mean scummy" would be correct if the person in question was generally known to have a lurky playstyle regardless of his or her alignment. I have never played in a game with Korts before but as far as I know, I wouldn't consider Korts to be a generally lurky type of player regardless of his alignment. If this was MafiaSSK or killa seven then yeah, I might wanna probe a little deeper but with Korts I'd expect more than this.

Korts has pretty much confirmed this by mentioning that he takes pride in remaining active.

Incognito: It's been so long, I don't remember any issues about you from me other than your opinion on Izzy.

For suspicions, Incognito's attack of Dizzy which started the whole case is probably

my biggest suspicion.

So then who

do

you find scummy? Also, what do you think of Korts's and charter's votes on DizzyIzzy?

I have made

two

posts in short succession saying that I wanted these questions answered by everyone--what makes you think I only want you to do so?

Because I wasn't the only one to not answer your questions but yet I was the only one who you called out about it. Also, you even went so far as to say I was "avoiding realposting" which is a blatant misrep and exaggeration considering the fact that I've been "realposting" through the entirety of the game. Your comment here:

A question: why is Incog considered so pro-town? Is it a build-up of a constant series of helpful scumhunting posts?

...leads me to believe you yourself recognize this and were just tossing dirt on me for your own convenience.

P.S. If you're so far behind in your reading, why do you feel so comfortable placing your vote on DizzyIzzy? Wouldn't you want to catch up first and then decide where to place your vote after gathering more information about the players and the game in general instead of being so reactionary?

@Patrick:

Those positive charter-vibes are going downhill. His initial play didn't seem too dissimilar from SPQR to me, but his more recent play has been more bothersome.

@Xdaamno:

I never said anything about you replacing out anywhere...

[Incognito]

I find it strange that Xdaamno is here looking for scum-tells but keeps questioning the dude he thinks is town.

[Incognito]

GC:

I realize that I've been making comments about Xdaamno implying that I find him scummy, but I haven't been switching my vote to him and therefore haven't been putting my money where my mouth is. I've just largely been biting my tongue on him because I keep getting this nagging feeling that if he ends up being lynched today, he's gonna somehow flip town. His play in the second game I linked to just gives me that feeling. If I had a scum game to compare to, I'd feel much better about my read of him.

Having said that, I should note that I probably wouldn't be completely averse to his lynch if the consensus believes he should be today's lynch. Right now, Korts is looking much scummier to me though.

camn:

Why would scum be more likely to soft-claim than town?

I feel comfortable because and her push on my wagon, by analysis of her reasoning, seems more policy-based than anything--why didn't she vote me while I wasn't posting?

I don't know her reasons for this, but I know my reasons were because your absence seemed more like a site-wide thing at first as your posting rate seemed to be slowing across the board. Then when I checked your posting history again and then began noticing you online more, I felt like you were just strategically lurking in this particular game, and I followed suit with a vote.

And I am reactionary by nature, it is a good way for me to scumhunt--unless I misunderstand the meaning of the word?

By reactionary, I was implying that to me your vote looked more OMGUS-driven rather than me getting the feeling that you genuinely felt like she was scummy. The fact that you kept and

keep

implying that you're behind on so many pages, you seemed to imply that reactions to Yosarian2's claim might be helpful to discern alignments, but then you didn't go out and try to read up on those reactions or the many pages you missed but instead decided to place your vote on DizzyIzzy gives me the feeling that you're being insincere about what you've been stating in the thread. Unless, of course, you feel like DizzyIzzy's reaction to Yosarian2's claim was the scummiest. Feel free to let me know if that's the case.

I'll look up your meta tommorow, going to bed now.

He's town.

So are you, dear. So are you.

[Incognito]

camn, eh, I have to say I disagree. I don't think a scum necessarily wants to be seen as a PR -- a scum just wants to be seen as town in general or just fly under the radar if possible. Soft-claiming (especially when the person is under little to no pressure) tends to do the opposite of that by bringing the person into the spotlight.

I've just largely been biting my tongue on him because I keep getting this nagging feeling that if he ends up being lynched today, he's gonna somehow flip town.

But if we lynch him tomorrow he will turn up scum?

A scum is a scum is a scum no matter the day, yes. I was just trying to emphasize the point that I think a Korts-lynch is more likely to hit scum than an Xdaamno-lynch.

[Incognito]

Xdaamno's self-vote makes me feel even more than ever that he's likely town. I do

not

support this wagon.

[Incognito]

camn, I've always looked at self-voting closer to L-1 as a town-tell. To me, it indicates a sign of frustration, and I

generally

view frustration as a town-tell as well. I mainly apply this "self-voting closer to L-1" rule of thumb to Newbie players in particular but with Xdaamno's playstyle, I could certainly see myself applying it to him also.

I think self-

hammering

is generally an action that I'd think is more likely to come from scum players than town players but in my experience, I can't recall a single instance where a player who self-voted closer to L-1 happened to be a scum player. You're completely welcome to provide me with examples that display otherwise. I just think that the self-vote coupled with the info I found when looking up Xdaamno's past games leads me to believe that Xdaamno is likely town here.

[Incognito]

I disagree. I looked up previous discussion on self-voting (to see general MS thoughts on the matter) and I think this is an obvious emotional ploy, per Seol: "...the appeal to emotion self-vote which should always, always lead to lynch (ie, the correct approach to an appeal to emotion is to deny)." The fact that he's acting super wounded that I'm calling him scum (which, as a defense, makes absolutely no sense) coupled with the self-vote, he looks like a scumbag trying out a pity plea.

Well then I'd feel really bad for poor alphachick, poor Iceforge, poor lordofthelefthand, poor Xtoxm (sorry Xtoxm x_x), poor krazyness, and even poor Incognito (yeah, I was still learning the ropes to this game, heh) if we ever ended up in a game with Seol. We'd have all been toast, and we'd have all been dead, decaying townies.

An incredibly recent game comes to mind about a scumbag showing really awesome frustration that looked really town and convinced the town to not lynch the guy because, in part, he was town-looking with that frustration. Being frustrated isn't a town tell by any stretch of the imagination.

If you're talking about the game I telepathically,

psychically

predict you're talking about, I'd love to make comment here but...

@Xdaamno:

no matter what happens, I think you owe it to everyone to produce that long analysis you mentioned above. A number of us have been asking for

something

of that sort for quite some time now.

[Incognito]

Korts, your self-vote was a completely different situation. You placed yourself at L-1 on page 1 and had absolutely nothing to be frustrated or emotional about -- like you said, it was a gambit. Comparing that self-vote to one that is more "appeal to emotion"-al is like comparing Bentley's to Daewoo's.

[Incognito]

Having said that, I should note that I probably wouldn't be completely averse to his lynch if the consensus believes he should be today's lynch. Right now, Korts is looking much scummier to me though.

FOS. Seems like you're trying to encourage Xdaamos lynch without getting your hands dirty.

Errrr... my intention there should be clear: I believe a Korts-lynch is more likely to hit scum than an Xdaamno-lynch, but I

believed

that Xdaamno had been behaving in such a way that I could have easily seen myself lending my vote to his wagon if people preferred his lynch instead. Given the new information that I received from Xdaamno's self-vote though, I've obviously revised this position and wouldn't support his lynch today at all, but I can't see how you could interpret that as me lending support to his lynch without getting my hands dirty -- I'd have placed my vote on his wagon, and I've been busy questioning him about a lot of his actions all day, which means that if he were lynched and did happen to flip town, I'd be at blame just like anyone else who might have ended up on his wagon.

Further, the only way I could possibly get "my hands dirty" is if Xdaamno is indeed town. Do you

know

him to be town here?

Xdaamno's self-vote makes me feel even more than ever that he's likely town. I do not support this wagon.

FOS. If him self voting enforces your belief that he is town, then I think you must be scum trying to gain town cred when Xdaamo flips town. There's absolutely no reason why a self vote should get you town cred. I think I've just convinced myself I think it more likely that Xdaamo is trying to gain sympathy.

"When" Xdaamno flips town? Don't you mean "if"? You're making it seem like it was

just

the self-vote that made me think he was more likely to be town. I had also already mentioned that I thought his play was similar to one of the past town games I looked into.

Also, did you even look at those previous self-voting games I've linked to? I've taken this exact same position in multiple games where I've been town and have found it to be a fairly successful town-tell. I don't think his frustration looks manufactured, I

do

think his frustration looks genuine and townish, and so I don't want to lynch him today. Do you think my reasoning for thinking him town looks contrived?

I add Incog to my list of Dizzy and Yos to give you the scumteam.

Sorry, but I'm obvtown.

Charter's on, like...

everyone's

peripherals. It's creepy.

I'm counting at least 6 people who seem willing to lynch him (OGML, you, Patrick, Yosarian2 seemed to voice some recent concern, camn probably would, and I'd be completely willing to lynch him too especially after this last post of his).

[Incognito]

I'm down with this.

unvote
vote: charter

Hey, charter: while you're at it, do you wanna explain why you said the following in one game where you were town:

I think Xtoxm is town, I don't like Yos or dahill's votes for him either. I'd vote for dahill again if I could.

I don't understand why everyone always blows up when someone self-votes. I don't even remember the last time I saw scum do it when it wasn't a hammer to end the day short

.

...but have now decided to give me flak for it here?

[Incognito]

charter, I'm not going to get into a typing contest with you. The point is if you previously held a certain belief as town that you "don't even remember the last time you saw scum do it when it wasn't a hammer to end the day short" then you

should

technically see where I'm coming from and should NOT use that as reason to be suspicious of me. You gave me two FoS's, placed me into your top three, and have now come out on a full-on assault trying to attack me since I still believe in something that you

yourself

believed in as town at least at one point during your Mafia-playing days. The MOST I'd expect you to do with me is maybe a hand-slap or to point out an example of a time where the same logic I used to derive my town feelings for Xdaamno might have proved wrong since you saw something different in your own experience but you didn't do that -- instead you used that as reason to bring me into your top three when you previously had absolutely NO suspicions of me! The fact that you used that as reason to be suspicious of me AND went so far as to accuse me of being scum who is trying to gain town cred when you previously held those same EXACT beliefs at one point or another just proves that your case is phony.

[Incognito]

Any breadcrumbs, charter?

=======================

Page 24 Votecount

camn (0/7):
charter (5/7): OhGodMyLife, Patrick, Incognito, Korts, Yosarian2
DizzyIzzyB13 (1/7): charter
Ether (0/7):
Green Crayons (0/7):
Incognito (0/7):
Korts (2/7): DizzyIzzyB13, Ether
OhGodMyLife (0/7):
Patrick (1/7): Xdaamno
skitzer (0/7):
Xdaamno (2/7): Green Crayons, camn,
Yosarian2 (0/7):

Not voting (3/12):

skitzer,

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Countdown To Deadline
============================

[Incognito]

Aren't you usually a breadcrumbing kind of guy?

[Incognito]

unvote

for now.

[Incognito]

vote: Korts

[Incognito]

Ether's

sooooo

cool when she's town.

[Incognito]

I think it's unlikely that charter is a cult recruiter -- vollkan's opening flavor seems to suggest that this set-up might be purely Mafia vs. Town:

Welcome to the town of Ludd, population 12. Ludd was formed in the 1960s by a small group of countercultural environmentalists and has since blossomed into a peaceful, if somewhat smelly, hippy commune. Recent reports suggest, however,

that the mafia

have set their sights upon Ludd, as an inconspicious base for future operations.

Unfortunately for the residents of Ludd, Earth Week has just begun. Showing their superior level of commitment to the empty symbolism of Earth Hour, the Luddites have decided that for the remainder of the following week (or longer if they so desire) they will stay together in a single room using absolutely no electricity. Many dark nights are ahead...

the mafia

are getting excited.

I know the last time I was in a

voll-mod Mini Normal

, his flavor also seemed to suggest that the game would be purely Mafia vs. Town, and the game pretty much ended up playing out that way as well.

It'd be awesome if vollkan could answer charter's question since it might provide a bit more clarity about charter's claimed role, though I'm doubting he will.

@Xdaamno:

I, too, would like further clarification about your "read" of me since I, like Patrick, don't think what you've mentioned makes much sense. It seems to make more sense if you say "there's probably no

mafia

players under suspicion right now". Further, why are you only pulling out two quotes that I made recently to use for your read of me? Wouldn't general vibes throughout the thread or overall behavior be more useful to determine an alignment?

[Incognito]

Thunderstorms in my area keep cutting off my 'net, so I can't really say much at this time.

I, too, would like to know how we can easily see if Korts is telling the truth like charter mentioned.

Yosarian2, why would a scum be unlikely to fake the role of Bodyguard?

[Incognito]

Is it bad that I don't particularly feel inclined to remove my vote even in the absence of a counterclaim? You've got a scummy-acting person in Korts who was pushed to a claim by three people who seem town-ish (DizzyIzzy less so but that's besides the point, Patrick's been looking much better lately) and one person who I know is town (me), and he comes forward and claims a protective role. If that doesn't smell like scum fake-claiming, then I don't know what does.

Hmm. Incognito, is Camn scum?

No, I think she's town.

[Incognito]

13: Each day will have an automatic deadline of three (3) weeks. Under

no

circumstances will I extend the deadline.

At deadline, the player with the most votes will be lynched. In the case of a tie, whichever of the tied players received the LAST vote shall be the lynchee.

unvote
vote: xdaamno

unfortunately

[Incognito]

skitzer, do you typically go whole days without voting anyone?

[Incognito]

Korts, who did you "protect" last night?

[Incognito]

Why not OGML? Seemed pretty obvious that he was soft-claiming an investigative role.

[Incognito]

Still not really liking Korts, but I don't think he should be today's lynch.

I agree with the Yosarian2-hate; it does seem rather unlikely that we would have a Miller in this game when we now have seen that both a Gunsmith

and

a Tracker died last night. His play in general doesn't really strike me as town-ish either -- I particularly didn't like

the post

where he placed his vote on charter: to me it looked like he was defending

me

from charter's attack and case and using his defense of me as reason to place his vote down on him where he even concluded that I'm "obvtown and charter is obvscum". I just can't think of a time where I've built a case against someone and placed a vote down on him or her by largely basing my vote on a defense of someone whose alignment I wasn't 100% sure of as town. I have, however, done this as scum.

Having said all that though, I'm finding myself more and more bothered by

Ether's

play. I know I said that I thought she was town-ish yesterday, but I think I largely based my feelings of her play on her early attack on me (Ether has a tendency to early blitz attack players she respects when she's town). The rest of her play, however, doesn't really look all that dissimilar from the play I recognized from Newbie 530 where Ether was scum.

-~- Her voting pattern has been extremely flippant (she went from 1. me to 2. Izzy to 3. Yosarian2 to 4. Korts to 5. charter to 6. Korts again and then finally to 7. Izzy at deadline). Compare this to games where she's been town, and you'll notice the difference (she usually has a tendency to stick to her guns as town). Even her switch off Korts near deadline really bothered me as well -- I know from past games that Ether would almost certainly maintain a vote even in the face of a power role claim (she did so against a Glork jailkeeper claim in Mini 594).

-~- I didn't like how when she initially placed her vote on DizzyIzzy early in Day 1, she didn't really make an attempt to try and figure her out by prodding and probing at her with questions -- she just seemed to leave her vote there and allowed me to do all the questioning. Again, I'd expect an Ether-town to take at least

some

interest in figuring out if her top suspect is really truly scum.

-~- There's also been the issue with her inactivity. I could see an Ether-town having activity issues but in a game like this where she has a lot of familiarity with the players, I would think she'd keep her interest level up and remain engaged with the game. Instead, she had that huge period of inactivity after her Yos2 vote, and she didn't make an effort to pop in around deadline.

-~- Lastly, given the two power role flips from last night, I've been thinking of a more sinister interpretation of Ether's Yos2 vote. What if Ether and Yos2 really

are

scum together and Ether felt compelled to lend her vote to the wagon since she thought Yosarian2 would almost certainly be lynched for his claim yesterday? She might have felt like she absolutely needed to have her vote on the wagon to gain some pro-town cred, and she might have recognized what OGML was hinting at when he seemed to be soft-claiming.

In short, I agree with the Yosarian2 wagon, but I'd also like to push in an opposite direction as well.

Vote: Ether
Major FoS: Yosarian2

P.S. This is all coming from someone who's had a lot of experience playing with Ether (including FtF games). This really really really does

not

feel like Ether-town.

[Incognito]

GC: Gunsmiths are investigative roles that have the ability to check players for guns. Here's the Wiki article.

[Incognito]

Hmm, I get vibes for a Yos-Incognito scumteam, trying to delay Yos' lynch. I know Yos recently posted in a mafia discussion thread that stalling for time before being lynched is very useful for scum, which makes it more likely. IGMEOY.

Is this solely because I didn't immediately lend my vote to the growing Yosarian2-wagon or is your suspicion of this pairing based on anything else in the game? Please elaborate on this.

Also, what do you think of my case against Ether?

I'm scratching my head, trying to figure out what it was about OGML's role that Yos' claim would have rubbed him the wrong way.

Just to expand on this because I realize my answer may have been incomplete: From a modding perspective, Millers are typically thrown into games to "nerf" the power of the Cop by incorporating a role that appears as a "guilty" investigation into an otherwise pro-town role. This is done so that the game remains more about thinking and less about following the night game. Vigilantes or Cops are typically thrown in to games to "nerf" the power of a Gunsmith again by incorporating pro-town roles that will come up as seemingly guilty to a Gunsmith's investigation again to make the game less about investigations and more about thinking. To throw a Miller into a game that we now know had two investigative roles that can't

possibly

be "nerfed" by a Miller investigation seems rather inelegant and unlikely. This is why OGML expressed so much dislike the claim.

[Incognito]

Good. I was about to retype my explanation because I thought

that

additional explanation sucked as well lol. I just always feel like my thoughts sound better in my head as opposed to when I try to translate them into text.

[Incognito]

Ether, I know what you're trying to do here. You're seriously trying to get me to reveal the secret behind the AIM logs that Patrick and I have on your typical play and that's

not

gonna happen. You know as well as I do that you're scum here, so you may as well fold now.

no, I don't support offing a claimed martyr when there are obvious nighttime applications from it, even with a better grip than I have here. I learned my lesson on that.

When did you learn your lesson on this?

(Having said that, the deaths of two investigative roles makes a Kortslynch a lot more tempting to me. There's something else I'm thinking on this note, but I'm holding off.)

How long do you plan to hold off on this?

The last sentence of the fourth point is stupid because I'd voted before OGML softclaimed, and specifically hinted later that I wouldn't take other power roles into account. Admittedly, there's not much else that endears me to Yosarian's play.

Fair enough. But if you're scum like I think you are, you might have picked up on what OGML was getting at

before

he ever even softclaimed (that whole informed minority thing) especially if Yosarian2 is your fake-claiming buddy. Because of that, I think my point still has at least some truth to it and isn't stupid at all.

I can't passionately defend myself against the middle two points--I never really took to this game.

You seemed pretty into the game when we first started as you claimed that your vote on me was serious and you began gunning for my lynch. Why would that suddenly change?

I'd say fair enough to the other points you refuted but the main issues I have with your play still stand -- I just don't see that strong scum hunting prowess and that "go for the kill" type of attitude that I'm used to seeing from you. You began well with your attack against me but then you just fizzled, and I'm not gonna let you get away with this.

@Korts:

vollkan's modded two other self-created games to my understanding:

1)

Mini 554 - Vollville

2)

Mini 610 - Ace Attorney

In Vollville there were multiple investigative roles but no real red herrings thrown in there and in Ace Attorney it looks like there was a Godmother with no Cop. I haven't really looked at the specifics of that Godmother though (might have been immune to NKs instead of investigations since there was a 2-shot vig).

[Incognito]

Xdaamno, your reasoning doesn't make much sense though. You said that

Yosarian2

posted something in MD about stalling for time before being lynched as scum, so why would Yosarian2's self-proposed feelings about good scum play carry over into my own if I was scum with him? Wouldn't you be more interested in my thoughts of good scum play instead?

Also, what do you think of my case against Ether?

This?

[Incognito]

Patrick: I too am bothered by skitzer. An additional point against him is how he spent a large percentage of his time yesterday denouncing the issues against DizzyIzzy and giving flak to the people who brought them forward but then ended the day with his vote on her wagon anyway by seeming to "tailor" a case against her. I think it's rather odd for him to originally not see what people were getting at with her but then seeming to magically see the light right at deadline when he was pressured to finally place a vote.

[Incognito]

Yos2:

I know I said that I thought she was town-ish yesterday, but I think I largely based my feelings of her play on her early attack on me (Ether has a tendency to early blitz attack players she respects when she's town). The rest of her play, however, doesn't really look all that dissimilar from the play I recognized from Newbie 530 where Ether was scum.

Can you respond to this also:

I particularly didn't like

the post

where he placed his vote on charter: to me it looked like he was defending

me

from charter's attack and case and using his defense of me as reason to place his vote down on him where he even concluded that I'm "obvtown and charter is obvscum". I just can't think of a time where I've built a case against someone and placed a vote down on him or her by largely basing my vote on a defense of someone whose alignment I wasn't 100% sure of as town. I have, however, done this as scum.

Do you think the point I've made there is valid? Do you often find yourself voting for another player in defense of another player as town? A sort of "chainsaw defense" except where in this case the person you were defending is town?

[Incognito]

My vote ain't movin', but I am curious to see where Ether's going with her Korts line of questioning. I do agree that an OGML-softclaiming-investigative-role protect should trump a charter-essentially-confirmed-vanilla-town protect any day.

[Incognito]

I'm not really getting much out of the past few posts probably because they've been about set-up spec.

Well, your claim would be convenient for scum in that it's not actually confirmable, it's not likely to be counterclaimed if you're lying because bodyguards aren't very common, and it's not a role claim the town was likely to lynch on day 1.

This was exactly my line of thinking yesterday when I maintained my vote on Korts so it strongly surprised me when you seemed to feel otherwise. I see Patrick touched on this also. Looking back, I see you were mainly thinking of things from a Cop/Miller perspective, but I just find it weird that if you're telling the truth about your role, a player of your caliber wouldn't have considered that perhaps we may be dealing with a screwy type of set-up that simply has no Cop even with the presence of a Miller. Your insistence on there being one yesterday just strikes me as off.

[Incognito]

I never really took to this game.

You sound like you are already dead, or being replaced, neither of which I saw proof of.

What are your thoughts on Ether's *alignment*?

[Incognito]

Just pointing out that Ether is now at L-1.

Ether:

Please claim.

[Incognito]

Actually

unvote

to prevent a self-hammer. She should still claim though.

[Incognito]

Yos2: Nope, I haven't. However if she really is scum here she might be tempted to in order to halt discussion. I'd rather eliminate the risk by keeping her at L-2 and asking for the claim from here than at L-1. I don't know what her philosophy is on self-hammering scum because she has rarely drawn a scum role, but I could see her (or anyone else) supporting it for strategic purposes.

[Incognito]

[Incognito]

Yes. That makes sense, doesn't it? If there are two nightkills, I think at least one of them would have been on Yosarian2.

But why would this implicate Yosarian2 as scum? The idea was that since Yosarian2 didn't die last night, the second kill seemed more likely to be an SK kill as opposed to a vig kill since it's thought that a vig would have just killed Yosarian2, the claimed Miller, last night. I think the only way you could be genuinely suspicious of Yosarian2 for the reasons of him not dying last night is if you think

he

is the potential SK. Do you believe that to be the case? If so, why?

I haven't seen anything out of the ordinary, but I don't use meta, which is seeming what a lot of her case is. I can understand it though; her meta seems to be heavily convincing.

Why so wishy-washy?

[Incognito]

Why so wishy-washy?

I wasn't the one who thought it was convincing

Oh?

I took the "her meta seems to be heavily convincing" that you mentioned in your 785 to mean that you too were being swayed by it even though you don't usually factor in meta when trying to develop reads.

[Incognito]

So... like Ether, can you

do

something already? This game's stalling out.

Don't rub it in. ¬_¬

This is a "god dammit Sophie I will force myself to care about this game somehow" post; I'm aware of prod rules and don't want to be replaced. I don't expect to sleep for a while, sadly.

I take it this is a Vanilla claim?

[Incognito]

Your first paragraph I have no problems with. I'm not going to lie and defend myself artificially like many town players would. Those are valid points.

I'm surprised you don't have a problem with the first paragraph and think all of the points are valid. Yosarian2 mentioned that one of his issues with you is your vote on him

today

despite the fact that you didn't find him scummy yesterday. How is that point valid when you seemed to vote for him due to the information we learned from our now dead townies, which is new information that you didn't have available to you yesterday?

[Incognito]

Yeah, this is getting ridiculous.

vote: Ether

[Incognito]

Mod:

Prod charter, Korts, (Ether, skitzer) please?

[Incognito]

No it was L-1. :P

[Incognito]

Korts, did you protect charter again last night?

[Incognito]

Mmm.. if this is a two mafia group set-up like I think it might be (two mafiates per group), we might not only need to lynch correctly but also make sure to lynch the scum of the Mafia group that Ether was

not

a part of in order to still have some kind of a chance. It

could

still be a one mafia group and one SK set-up and the "Red Mafia" thing might be thrown in there as a red herring, but I'm thinking the two mafia group thing is looking more and more likely.

[Incognito]

It also makes sense with the skitzer kill. I personally would have never thought skitzer was town. Also, charter, have you never read Mountainous Multiball? That set-up has 8 Vanilla townies and 2 mafia groups of 2 scum each (Goons) for a total of 12 players. With the ability to cross-kill, 4 mafiates in a mini game isn't all that impossible, I think.

I'm just noting that if I'm correct in my speculation, Xdaamno is exactly the person of the remaining players I would most expect to be Ether's buddy. Therefore, I'm highly leery of any kind of Xdaamno lynch today even though I do think he might be scum.

[Incognito]

I'll answer after Patrick claims.

[Incognito]

Actually, I'd like to request that I claim after GC. Is that OK with everyone?

[Incognito]

OK, I'm a

watcher

.

-~- Night 1 watched OhGodMyLife -> he was targeted by Ether.
-~- Night 2 watched charter -> he was targeted by Korts.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

So now for my huge mindspill.

First of all, to answer GC's question, the reason I suspect two mafia groups is for a number of reasons:

• Two kills per night. The kill choices have been interesting also: Yosarian2 and skitzer were two people who I would have suspected to be scum. If the win condition for the mafia is something like "You win when all threats to your existence are eliminated" then the mafia would have a vested interest to try and kill off the opposing scum team as well as getting rid of the town also. Last night's kills look like an attempt by both (possible) scum teams to kill each other off as we approach endgame.
  
• vollkan's opening flavor suggests Mafia versus Town.
  
• Ether-power role-Mafia Roleblocking scum sending in the NK choice during Night 1. Why on Earth would a scum group of say, 3, send a Mafia Roleblocker out to submit the kill unless the other 2 scum buddies were under serious scrutiny, and they feared they might be tracked or roleblocked otherwise? To me, Ether sending the kill only makes sense if she was part of a scum team of 2, and her buddy was under intense scrutiny. I'm speculating that she had the ability to both submit kills and roleblock people during the night at the same time.

There are other reasons that I believe this to be the case but for now, I think the above-mentioned reasons are compelling enough.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Now, about Korts, since I watched charter last night and did indeed see Korts target charter, this suggests a few possibilities:

1)

Korts is telling the truth about his role and is indeed a Bodyguard (I can't see a Bodyguard as a scum role, btw).

2)

Korts is not telling the truth about his role and is actually some kind of scum PR (maybe another Mafia RB or a Mafia Doctor or some other Mafia PR that has the ability to target people during the night) that allowed me to see him target charter

without killing him

.

3)

Korts can

not

be an SK.

The thing about possibility 2 is Korts would have or should have had no way of knowing that there was a Watcher in this set-up (especially with the other dead investigative town roles), so why would he, as scum, still feel the need to send a choice to target charter if he didn't have some kind of fear of being caught by a pro-town investigative role? Also, if I'm right about the game having two separate mafia groups, a hypothetical Korts-scum who happened to be, say, a Mafia Doctor would be taking a

huge risk

by forgoing protecting his scum buddy just to be seen as targeting charter when again he'd have no way of knowing there was another pro-town investigative role that could find him out. Therefore, I'm really leaning towards believing that Korts is indeed a Bodyguard. If anyone else can see some other possibility, feel free to blurt it out.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Now, why do I suspect Xdaamno as being Ether's scum buddy if I'm right about the set-up?

- Their interactions with one another have been kinda sketchy (I could pull up examples if necessary).
- If either one of Patrick or GC were scum with Ether, they were both under so little scrutiny during D1 that either one of them could have easily submitted the kill without fearing being tracked or roleblocked in order to preserve their Mafia RB power role scum buddy.
- Xdaamno, on the other hand, was being hounded by everyone and their mother (Happy Mother's Day, btw! ), so he'd be a really poor choice to have submit the kill as opposed to Ether who was largely being written off by most as town.

There are probably other things that I can write down here but this is getting kinda long, I might be forgetting them, so I'll write them down if they come to me. I have to go out soon with my mom for Mother's Day anyway.

If all of my speculation is correct and if charter's also actually town, this would mean that the remaining mafiates would have to be {Patrick, Green Crayons, and Xdaamno}. Could I see Patrick and Green Crayons as scum together? Possibly, but I'd have to reread closely from the very beginning to determine that.

But yeah, those are my thoughts (for the most part) at this time.

Discuss. (Sorry for the verbosity.)

[Incognito]

Not the reaction I expected.

If you look back at my interactions with Ether during Day 1, it should be blindingly obvious that I'm telling the truth about my role. I went from calling the chick obvtown to gunning for her lynch at the start of Day 2 (I'm the one who started the bandwagon on her when people, LIKE YOU for example, wanted to lynch Yosarian2 instead). There are other minor breadcrumbs that I can point out but if you plan on lynching me because you think my claim doesn't make sense, then you're really stupid considering the other types of roles we've seen come out of this game. Your set-up speculation would have lynched Yosarian2-miller town yesterday so don't you dare tell me my claim is bs.

[Incognito]

Well, here's more things that I've mentioned in-thread that should help alleviate fears:

In response to your 260, the only time I've dealt with a claimed Miller who actually turned out to be a Miller was in Mini 635 - WOMAFIA. Lord Gurgi claimed Douchebag (Miller) in his opening post. Despite the fact that I had LG checked off as likely town for the remainder of the game, I found myself paranoid with him remaining alive closer and closer to end-game. I just think true Miller claims do more harm than good for the town since they allow scum to capitalize on the psychological WIFOM games that are inherent in townie paranoia. Perhaps I was a bit presumptuous when I said "if Yosarian2 was town I think he'd know better than this" since, now that I think about it and now that we've gotten answers from him, I do agree that claiming Miller as scum in the manner he did would probably be worse play for him as scum than as town, but I do hold by the belief that if he's telling the truth, his choice and the manner in which he claimed is terrible.

Yos2 & Patrick: Like I said above, I just think Miller claims bring about a lot of unnecessary townie paranoia. This is especially true considering the fact that the current meta with a lot of mods seems to instill a lot of Cop-hate anyway. WOMAFIA was a good example of this.

In Post 284 in particular, I was letting Yosarian2 know that 1) I was having a hard time believing his claim and 2) if he was telling the truth about his claim, I didn't think it was smart of him to claim since I didn't think a COP was in this set-up. I said this because I had implied knowledge as a Watcher. All of this was before OGML and camn ever flipped investigative, btw. In fact, if you look at my reactions to Yos2's claim, you should see that it makes a lot of sense considering what you now know to be my role. Again, this was all before the two investigative flips.

Day 1 quotes towards Ether

I'll look up your meta tommorow, going to bed now.

He's town.

So are you, dear. So are you.

Ether's

sooooo

cool when she's town.

Day 2, I completely flip-flopped and went after her in my post #719 in the face of a mounting Yosarian2 wagon.

Partial Breadcrumbs

Why not OGML? Seemed pretty obvious that he was soft-claiming an investigative role.

This quote was in response to Korts claiming that he protected you during Night 1. I mentioned that it would have made more sense to me for him to have protected OGML since it was obvious OGML was soft-claiming. In effect, I was also hinting at who I watched that night.

Korts, did you protect charter again last night?

Again, knowledge that I already had if Korts is indeed telling the truth about his role but the above was also another partial breadcrumb.

Also, I was very anti-Korts during Day 1, and he, too, was anti-me during Day 1 as well.

So there ya go.

[Incognito]

All of the claim types weirded me out too and made me extremely doubtful, but I think the set-up was created to break a number of meta-conventions. Multiple investigative roles, Millers with no Cops, possible multiple mafia groups, and if Korts is telling the truth - strange protective roles. I don't think a massclaim would have broken the set-up: if OGML, camn, and me all claimed, do you honestly think the town would have bought a three investigative role set-up? We probably would have just lynched the scummiest-seeming of us three citing "counterclaim" as reasoning. Yosarian2 as a Miller would have certainly been insta-lynched given this too since nobody would believe a Miller could exist with our types of investigative roles.

So yeah, I'm not the one who made the set-up, but I've kept an open-mind about it all game since it seemed like things just simply couldn't be taken for granted.

[Incognito]

Also

@charter and anyone else who doesn't believe my claim:

I have never not ONCE in any of my scum games on MS fake-claimed a power role. Even in SPQR - Mini 720 where Glork, dahill1, and I speculated that the set-up was either at or near all-vanilla, we chose to claim Vanilla since we felt it was the safest option. Your response might be "well, that doesn't mean you couldn't do it here", but I'm just pointing this out anyway. I think it would be EXTREMELY risky for me as scum to claim power now given the number of PRs that have already flipped and that have already been claimed. I think a scum would almost certainly claim Vanilla in this situation with the thought that the town probably wouldn't buy another power role claim.

Also, charter, if Korts and I were scum, I would have had NO INCENTIVE to share my thoughts about how I felt the set-up might have two separate scum groups. I could have easily kept pushing a one mafia group/one SK ideology and pushed for an Xdaamno lynch today for an easy scum win. You might shout "WIFOM!!!!" but no, it's really not.

Incog: In light of all of this, who would you like to see lynched today as of this moment?

Well, I think the set-up looks something like this at this stage of the game:

- 3 Town
- 2 members of Mafia group whatever (let's say "Blue")
- 1 member of the Red Mafia

I

think

based on Xdaamno's and Ether's interactions and based on the fact that Ether submitted the kill during N1 that Xdaamno is very likely the other member of the Red Mafia. So from my perspective, I think I want to lynch one of the members of the Blue Mafia since lynching a Red Mafiate would lead to an automatic Red Mafia win. If I'm correct about everything, this would mean that you and Patrick are Blue Mafiates so a lynch on either one of you would be fine. The shitty thing is I don't think I or any other member of the town can control the town's destiny and guarantee a town win. It seems like things could be really close.

[Incognito]

So from my perspective, I think I want to lynch one of the members of the Blue Mafia since lynching a Red Mafiate would lead to an automatic

Red

Blue Mafia win.

Sorry, fixed.

[Incognito]

You seemed pretty sold on me being town before -- why did that change just because of my claim?

[Incognito]

I've wanted Korts dead since Day 1. I can't see how you could possibly see this as me fake-claiming as his buddy in an effort to clear him as town. Also, it really wouldn't have been that difficult for a hypo-me-scum to claim Vanilla and help a Korts-hyposcum buddy push an Xdaamno lynch when GC and charter have both made it clear already that they think Xdaamno is scum.

[Incognito]

You seemed pretty sold on me being town before -- why did that change just because of my claim?

I think he was quite clear - it is unlikely to have such a "wack" setup with such a good mod.

Out of everything that's been talked about, this is the only thing you feel the need to comment on?

@Patrick:

as of right now, you're the only other person (aside from Korts who only commented on it when I brought all of my speculation to the forefront) who also proposed that we may be dealing with a two mafia team set-up. charter made it seem like it just dawned on him when I brought it up, Xdaamno seems completely oblivious to everything as usual, and GC seems to be suggesting otherwise.

This. ^^^

[Incognito]

If he's scum, he might have gotten nervous thinking I had some kind of result on him and might have made up some crazy fake-claim in anticipation of my result. Didn't work, obv.

[Incognito]

Okay. If I was scum fake-claiming Watcher, I could have chosen to tailor a result on someone to make him or her seem guilty. If I was scum and Korts was my buddy, I probably would have just claimed Vanilla thinking that the town would continue believing his Bodyguard claim. I mean seriously, it should be BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS that I'm a pro-town player who is NOT lying about my role.

Wasn't it you who came up with the idea that camn had to be town in BSG because it would be stupid for her as scum to claim a role that already appeared in the game (Jailkeeper)? Why does that same frame of thought not fit here with me and my role for you? Wasn't it you who defended Yosarian2 for having a weird Miller claim? The more you keep pushing this idea that I could be scum because of my claim, the more justified I feel for thinking you're scum.

[Incognito]

Okay. If I was scum fake-claiming Watcher, I could have chosen to tailor a result on someone to make him or her seem guilty.

k, frustration is coming through the keyboard. I probably wouldn't have been able to get away with this considering the kill choices and considering my thoughts about each of the players who died. But yeah.

[Incognito]

Such empty posting. Things are scummy or crap logic because I, Green Crayons, said so! No evidence to support his positions -- just a bunch of empty text.

GC's Response to my multiple scum group theory: Well, 12 player games shouldn't have more than one scum group because I, GC, said so!

Evidence that supports the idea that 12 player games CAN HAVE MORE THAN ONE SCUM GROUP

:

The numerous mountainous multiball set-ups that have been run in Little Italy that have all been 12 player games.

- Open 137 (currently running)
- Open 72
- Open 61

All three of these games had the following set-up:

- 8 Vanilla Townies
- 2 Mafia Goons (Group A)
- 2 Mafia Goons (Group B)

If you think our set-up is stacked against town, then what are your thoughts on these MOUNTAINOUS set-ups that have had two of them run to completion one of which actually ended with a town win? Why is it so unreasonable to believe that the set-up we're dealing with might be similar to these types of set-ups when our mod has even HINTED at evidence in the group scum name of "Red mafia"? Why should we ignore the fact that our very own vollkan-mod has used opening flavor in the past to DICTATE what kind of set-up the town should expect?

Seriously, have a look at vollkan-mod's opening flavor for "Mafia in Vollville - Mini 554" where vollkan explicitly writes in the opening the following lines that pretty much hinted to the town what type of set-up it could be looking at:

For centuries, the citizens of the tiny town of Vollville have lived in peace – untroubled by the recent endemic of

mafia killings

that seemed to be plaguing the rest of the world. After all, what would a powerful criminal organisation have to gain by infiltrating and massacring a village of just 13 people?

The apparent immunity of Vollville has, regrettably, ended forever. This morning, the body of the town’s beloved and dashing Mayor Vollkan was found strangled in his bed. Carved into his forehead were the words:

“Mafia has arrived.”

The remaining 12 citizens of Vollville have gathered to determine the identities of those responsible. Nobody has entered the village; nobody has left. The guilty must be among the 12.

The town in that game actually HAD to deal with two deaths per night and actually DID at one point use the opening flavor to help them determine that it probably was unlikely that the other killer was an SK. Patrick was in that very game as the vigilante who partly used the opening flavor in his own defense to vouch for his own towniness since people were fearful that he was an SK. Is it a bad assumption for me to think that vollkan may have done the same thing with our game? How can you possibly call my argument that the opening flavor seems to suggest mafia vs. town a "contrived argument" when I have evidence from past experience with vollkan that suggests that he's the type of mod to do so?

I can't figure out why scum would send out a role blocker to make a kill in lieu of role blocking. On N1. It doesn't make sense. Incog's "reasoning" is totally crap - mafia wouldn't waste a resource (roleblocking) fearing that one of their three people might be investigated when they could have simply blocked the person who had soft claimed an investigative role and used their kill to target anyone else they thought might have been a backup investigative role! Incog's reasoning is completely out of whack and makes me think that his "results" are complete BS.

Where did I say that the scum didn't roleblock that night? In that very quote that you pulled up of mine, I suggested that Ether PROBABLY had the ability to both kill AND roleblock in a single night, so she could have easily been sent to make the NK and AT THE SAME TIME roleblock another person of her choosing. It's much better for scum to completely get rid of the investigative threat that they're so worried about than to just roleblock him and aim for other people who they simply THOUGHT could be potential investigators. Why waste your time killing the people you think could be investigators when you pretty much have a sure thing in the person who soft-claimed?

Also, please point out where my playstyle up until this point has been "reactionary". Because if I remember correctly, I'm the one who led the charge against an Ether-scum on Day 2 in the face of a growing Yosarian2 wagon. Please tell me why I as mafia scum would feel so compelled to bus my Roleblocker scum buddy when I probably could have very easily pushed a Yosarian2 lynch given the "evidence" that was available from the Gunsmith and Tracker investigative role flips during Night 1. And if you're thinking I'm an SK, please tell me why I completely flip-flopped on Ether after just a single night when on the previous day I made it quite clear that I thought she was obvtown. Last time I checked, SKs didn't come equipped with Watcher abilities -- or is that your next bogus argument? That I'm somehow an SK with a Watcher ability?

You yourself gave absolutely no hint that you thought Ether was scum until Day 2 when I presented my case against her so for you to now suggest that it should have been blindingly obvious to everyone that she's scum since everyone knows her scum meta is complete fabrication. In fact, just to quote where you actually placed your vote down on her:

Yeah. I'm fairly certain that Ether is scum. This notion is only cemented by the fact that people who know/play with Ether are also saying that they see Ether as scum.

By the way, I think this was a major trip up: "I can't passionately defend myself against the middle two points--

I never really took to this game

." I know that she was looking forward to this game to some extent. And I don't think that she's lying about her lack of interest in this game. But the number one reason why she would become disinterested would be because she is scum. After all, she finds scum to be absolutely no fun (middle of post). And she most certainly does not invest much effort while scum (top of post).

Followed shortly thereafter by, "I don't know what causes that reaction, though I'm pretty sure thick familiarity is a negative, if anything." Pretty funny. Thick familiarity is a negative when you're scum.


So,

vote: Ether

.
I'm still super-happy with a X lynch in the days to come.
I'm warming up to the notion of a Yos lynch.
Skit is looking like lurker scum, regardless if he's lurking the whole site over.

What's that that Green Crayons said? "PEOPLE WHO KNOW/PLAY WITH ETHER ARE ALSO SAYING THAT THEY SEE ETHER AS SCUM." He doesn't say he believes this; he says PEOPLE (namely ME, since I put forward my case against Ether at that time) say that they see Ether as scum. So why present your case against me now as if it was a sure thing that everyone in the whole game knew she was scum?

Yeah, I'm pretty damn sure you're scum who's trying to win the game today with an Xdaamno, Red Mafia lynch after these last few posts. You can eat this:

vote: Green Crayons

[Incognito]

Right. I'm not responding to all of that because it simply won't be pretty.

I just would like everyone to toss the following thoughts around in their own minds:

-~- Why would someone who kept such an open-mind about Yosarian2's miller claim now become so closed-minded to not even consider that

a)

hey, maybe this Incog guy who I thought was obvtown all game might be onto something about the set-up and

b)

hey, maybe this Incog guy who I thought was obvtown might be telling the truth about his role?

-~- Why would someone who claims that he's not even certain that I'm scum attack me so fiercely for putting forth the ideas that I have?

-~- Green Crayons has claimed that my Watcher claim and my second partial breadcrumb only helps clear Korts. He's also insisted that charter is all but confirmed town. He's ALSO insisted that this set-up very likely has 3 scum; 1 SK in it. So he's made his feelings clear about Xdaamno, he's stated that he's not really sure which type of scum I am (SK or mafia scum), and who does that leave exactly? Patrick? Why has Green Crayons not even touched on his feelings about Patrick exactly? Have a look at the difference in tone between Green Crayons' response to Patrick's suggestion that this might be a dual mafia group set-up and his tone when attacking me. Does that not tell you anything?

-~- Ether submitted the kill during Night 1, period. I know some of you are doubting my Watcher claim, but this is the information that I'm giving you because it's the truth. I hope that my actions all game are enough to help suggest that I am indeed a pro-town Watcher even without the breadcrumbing and other hints at my role. From a balance perspective, that also suggests that this set-up has two mafia groups in it. If we were dealing with a 3 mafia scum group, most mods wouldn't even allow a Mafia RB to both submit a kill and roleblock at the same time. That's something that's typically only allowed for when mafia groups have only two people. Naming Ether's scum group the Red Mafia also lends support to this theory. The deaths of Yosarian2, a claimed miller, who was under a lot of scrutiny and skitzer, a person who most would agree looked fairly scummy, also help support this idea. To ignore all of this simply because it's conventional for Mini Normal set-ups to have one mafia group is downright stupid, and I won't be a part of it.

If anyone has any questions for me or would like for me to respond to anything Green Crayons has mentioned, I'll gladly do so. But right now, I'd like to hear some more thoughts from others.

[Incognito]

Incog's claim really doesn't mean anything if you think he's in a three person group with Ether (Xdaamo is included because he's prolly scum) because then he could have just bussed Ether day two, knowing she could never make it long. His Korts result means nothing because Korts said that's what he did first. The watcher in here is just too good for town.

Well then talk to vollkan about it because he put it in this set-up. If I get lynched because of my claim, I'm going to have a GREAT time during post-game giving you and anyone else who voted me some shit for trying to out-guess the mod and failing miserably.

Seriously, what incentive would I as scum to bus Ether, a MAFIA ROLEBLOCKER, during Day 2? She caught some flak during Day 1 but after she came back and began posting again pretty much everyone who was giving her flak (Yosarian2, camn, Patrick, etc) began calling her town again. I started attacking her during Day 2 just a few days into the start of it after making my voice perfectly clear during Day 1 that I thought she was obvtown. Yosarian2 would have been a rather easy lynch for me to push given the two investigative role flips, and I would have realized that doing so would have put the game in LYLO right now. So not only do you think I bussed my scum power role partner during Day 2 when she wasn't under any pressure, you also think that I was retarded enough to fakeclaim Watcher when I already would have known that I would receive flak for claiming a role that probably wouldn't be believed by anyone because of the two investigative role flips.

Just stop and think for a bit and tell me if any of the above makes any damn sense. If it does, then vote for me and see if I give a shit. Your set-up speculation would have already lynched Yos2, a claimed Miller, so yeah

LET'S ALL BE STUPID AND NOT LEARN FROM THE FIRST TIME THAT OUR MOD MAY HAVE MADE SOME SCREWY SET-UP THAT MIGHT FUCK WITH OUR MINDS.

[Incognito]

Whenever someone is on the lynch of scum, and accuses someone else on the lynch of bussing, it makes me wary of the acuser. You need to come up with other reasons than 'suspected bussing' if you want anyone else to listen to you. I think subjective is fine for your own opinions, but then you need to dig up/invent objective points for others to go on.

That's awesome.

[Incognito]

Yes, I can see that but what do you expect me to do? Lie about my role and claim Vanilla just so I don't have to put up with this?

Now I know how Elmo felt in my game when I put in two Cops in a set-up and nobody believed him.

[Incognito]

Thank you, Patrick, for bringing some sense into this thread. Much appreciated. Still not sure if you're scum though whereas GC is almost certainly scum.

Mod:

prod Xdaamno, please?

[Incognito]

Incog, since we've pretty much established that Yos' miller role was a red herring, why discount the possibility that Ether's "red mafia" role is a red herring as well?

Yeah, I did consider this. The issue I have with this hypothesis is it doesn't explain why

Ether

submitted the kill during Night 1. If I consider the possible scenarios for possible three-person scum teams (excluding you and charter in each of the groups), I get the following: Ether/Xdaamno/Patrick, Ether/Xdaamno/GC, Ether/Patrick/GC.

In each case, there's at least one person who was under the radar enough or considered town enough during Day 1 to have submitted the kill without fear of being tracked or roleblocked during Night 1. So why would one of the possible scum teams mentioned above still allow their Mafia Roleblocker to submit the kill? It doesn't really make much sense unless we're dealing with a set-up that has only two scum in it and maybe an SK. In that case though, I'd somewhat expect an SK to be prepping for some kind of vig claim or something of the sort but the kills during Night 1 and Night 2 and our mass-claim today don't really lend much support to that idea either unless the SK decided to claim Vanilla (not unlikely but still).

So yeah, these are the main reasons I think we're dealing with a two scum team set-up instead of the "Red" in "Red Mafia" being thrown in as a red herring.

Thank you, Patrick, for bringing some sense into this thread. Much appreciated. Still not sure if you're scum though whereas GC is almost certainly scum.

Mod:

prod Xdaamno, please?

That prod was unnecessary.

You were gone for three days without leaving any indication that you were on V/LA. It's a perfectly necessary prod to make.

Mafia sucks here because of the meta that you have to have no life to play it.

Ha. I have quite a busy life, and I still make time to post at least once a day. What's your excuse?

I, too, would like to know where your suspicions lie, what your thoughts are about the set-up, and what your thoughts are about everything that's been discussed the past few pages.

[Incognito]

Can everyone share their thoughts as to why they think camn was killed during Night 1?

[Incognito]

Can everyone share their thoughts as to why they think camn was killed during Night 1?

Actually, nevermind. That question might do more harm than good.

[Incognito]

bump?

[Incognito]

bump?

Neat. Who are your top suspects?

[Incognito]

No, to answer your question seriously, I still think we're dealing with two separate scum groups, and I still am leaning towards thinking the final scums are GC, Patrick, and Xdaamno. I can still see Xdaamno as Red Mafia since I think the connections between Xdaamno and Ether are there, and I really can't see GC or Patrick as scum with Xdaamno due to all of their interactions during Day 1 [remember back to the huge GC <-> Xdaamno scuffle that pretty much clogged up Day 1, GC's subsequent pushes on following days to get Xdaamno lynched, and Patrick's involvement with the GC <-> Xdaamno squabble which pretty much kicked off the whole thing in the first place (Xdaamno's vote on Patrick, Xdaamno's "pretty town reaction" thing directed at Patrick, and Patrick's subsequent Xdaamno-hate)].

I still think what I mentioned previously about Korts' claim holds true as well:

2)

Korts is not telling the truth about his role and is actually some kind of scum PR (maybe another Mafia RB or a Mafia Doctor or some other Mafia PR that has the ability to target people during the night) that allowed me to see him target charter

without killing him

.

The thing about possibility 2 is Korts would have or should have had no way of knowing that there was a Watcher in this set-up (especially with the other dead investigative town roles), so why would he, as scum, still feel the need to send a choice to target charter if he didn't have some kind of fear of being caught by a pro-town investigative role? Also, if I'm right about the game having two separate mafia groups, a hypothetical Korts-scum who happened to be, say, a Mafia Doctor would be taking a

huge risk

by forgoing protecting his scum buddy just to be seen as targeting charter when again he'd have no way of knowing there was another pro-town investigative role that could find him out. Therefore, I'm really leaning towards believing that Korts is indeed a Bodyguard. If anyone else can see some other possibility, feel free to blurt it out.

And I see no reason to disbelieve that charter's Masonizer role is actually a scum one.

---

@Patrick:

Your rebuttal to the above was the following:

If Korts is scum and Incognito is town, then Korts must have some kind of secondary ability which he targetted charter with.

Mafia Doctor is possible: in that case Korts might protect charter not for fear of a watcher, but for fear of charter being nightkilled (since that would probably send Korts to the gallows the next day).

Korts being a mafia watcher is just about the only other thing that comes to mind as a possibility here; I could see why a watcher would choose to keep an eye on charter though I'm not sure it would be best play.

If charter did happen to get night-killed last night, why couldn't a Korts-scum simply claim that he was roleblocked or something like that? Do you really think a scum Doctor would protect a practically confirmed townie from an NK just to protect himself when there are other ways to explain away a possible charter-death?

[Incognito]

Cross-posted.

Ah, I suppose my point wasn't too obvious in retrospect: that "bump" makes you look very town to me. I want to know who you suspect so that I can start building a proper case myself.

Why do you think that's very town of me, and why would you need my help for you to build a proper case?

[Incognito]

And I see no reason to disbelieve that charter's Masonizer role is actually a

scum

town

one.

Fixed.

Also

@Patrick:

if you do believe that we're dealing with two scum groups here, don't you think a Korts-scum would have had some indication during Day 1 that he might have been opposed by a separate mafia-scum faction? Do you think a Korts-scum would claim Bodyguard of all roles while having that kind of knowledge?

[Incognito]

thinking the final scums are GC, Patrick, and Xdaamno.

and I really can't see GC or Patrick as scum with Xdaamno due to all of their interactions during Day 1

clarify please?

Two separate scum groups.

GC, Patrick = Blue Mafia (my coined name for the other scum faction).
Xdaamno = Red Mafia (with Ether)

[Incognito]

You also bobbed over the other possibly I gave. Having told us at the start of the day that you think the setup is a strange one designed to break meta conventions, why do you seem to hold such a close minded position?

If you're talking about the Mafia Watcher, I can't really see that as a possibility. I think if Korts is scum with an ability that actually allows me to see him target people, he would be more likely to claim a role that mirrors the effects of a Bodyguard (i.e. a protective role like a Mafia Doctor) so that his claim maintains a level of seamlessness. It's not that I don't believe a Mafia Watcher can exist in this set-up.

Your post seems to imply you don't think a scum would claim bodyguard, why?

I could see a scum claiming bodyguard if we were dealing with a set-up that has one scum team but not so much if we're really dealing with two scum teams. I think a Korts-scum claiming a pro-town protective role would make himself a more attractive target for an NK, which doesn't seem like a smart move to make if a person is in a two-man scum team.

Incog, what was the purpose of wanting to get thoughts on camn's death?

I think I know why she was killed, and I was curious to see if anyone would follow a similar thought process that I did to arrive at my idea for as to why she was killed. I'd expect a scum who ACTUALLY knows the reason for why she was killed to make up some reason that didn't match the ACTUAL reason they killed her for, which might turn out to be a really weird and convoluted explanation and might shed some additional light on alignments. I decided against it because I didn't want to add any additional WIFOM into an already tight situation.

Am really leaning towards Xdaamo lynch. Clearly scum. Must reread the last bit though.

Have you completely discounted the two scum team possibility? If so, why?

[Incognito]

If you're talking about the Mafia Watcher, I can't really see that as a possibility. I think if Korts is scum with an ability that actually allows me to see him target people, he would be more likely to claim a role that mirrors the effects of a Bodyguard (i.e. a protective role like a Mafia Doctor) so that his claim maintains a level of seamlessness. It's not that I don't believe a Mafia Watcher can exist in this set-up.

I don't follow. Nobody would claim mafia doctor. If you're saying a mafia watcher would claim something that kind of mirrors their ability, I think a protective role does fairly well. Both watchers and protective roles target people who they think are likely nightkill targets.

No, I was saying that if Korts is scum, I think the possibility that makes the most sense is him being a Mafia Doctor since he would basically be claiming a pro-town role that mirrors his ability. A Bodyguard does just that since it

a)

targets people

and

b)

protects them from death. If Korts was a Mafia Watcher scum, I can't see why he wouldn't just claim my role. A pro-town Watcher doesn't have the ability to do b, which would make his hypothetical fake-claim of Bodyguard less seamless if his target did happen to die. Therefore, I think this is less likely by far.

[Incognito]

(Sung to "Locomotion")

This is booooring
When will you vote and stuff?
Come on, baby
Let's get posting!

Am I alone here
In this game, this game now?
Come on, baby
Let's get posting!

[Incognito]

This video's funny.

[Incognito]

Green Crayons is acting like he just had an epiphany when this is something I've been talking about all this time (yay! I'm voting him already!).

And Patrick looks like mafia-scum who feels trapped by role claims/obv-townies.

How about we lynch one of GC or Patrick and call it a day?

[Incognito]

Green Crayons: Up until Post 929, you seemed completely closed to the idea of a two-scum group set-up. That's why I said what I said.

[Incognito]

Mod:

Prod our resident social butterfly Xdaamno please?

[Incognito]

The fact that each of those pairings has something odd has actually led me to consider it just being one mafiate and an SK left: in that case I would think Xdaamno is mafia and GC is the serial killer. My issue there is the balance of the game seems pretty ridiculous. I know Yos was a miller and that's a slight disadvantage, but it still seems like we have so much power in that scenario, and vollkan's previous game was much more balanced. GC and Xdaamno are both scum in most plausible scenarios I can think of so I'm thinking one of them should be lynched, with GC looking like the safer bet in case we do have 8-2-2 and Xdaamno is red.

This is an interesting point. I could maybe, maybe, maybe see this kind of scenario. I think the three investigative roles is also more of a disadvantage than an advantage also though so perhaps that's what vollkan was going for here. Multiple red herrings designed to either cause mislynches or force people to lynch others NOT based on role claims but rather actual scummy behavior.

Anywho, I'm still cool with a Green Crayons lynch.

[Incognito]

The fact that each of those pairings has something odd has actually led me to consider it just being one mafiate and an SK left: in that case I would think Xdaamno is mafia and GC is the serial killer. My issue there is the balance of the game seems pretty ridiculous. I know Yos was a miller and that's a slight disadvantage, but it still seems like we have so much power in that scenario, and vollkan's previous game was much more balanced. GC and Xdaamno are both scum in most plausible scenarios I can think of so I'm thinking one of them should be lynched, with GC looking like the safer bet in case we do have 8-2-2 and Xdaamno is red.

This is an interesting point. I could maybe, maybe, maybe see this kind of scenario. I think the three investigative roles is also more of a disadvantage than an advantage also though so perhaps that's what vollkan was going for here. Multiple red herrings designed to either cause mislynches or force people to lynch others NOT based on role claims but rather actual scummy behavior.

Anywho, I'm still cool with a Green Crayons lynch.

I'm still not so sure on a GC lynch, because I could easily see his emotion being genuine. Could you be persuaded to go Patrick today?

Patrick seems townier to me than Green Crayons. Green Crayons also has an uncanny ability to fake emotion as scum. Therefore, no, I want a GC lynch today. Also curious to see your response to Patrick's question.

[Incognito]

Also, what happened to this:

Green Crayons looks scummy to me. I have a feeling his pathetic insults at me are not because he is an angry person, but because he is trying to replace any suspiscion I have of him with an emotion.

Incog: In light of all of this, who would you like to see lynched today as of this moment?

Fairly scummy quote, but not representative of my feelings I think.

[Incognito]

I like how Incog's specific argument for lynching me is that I get emotionally invested in games. He doesn't go as far to investigate if I invest myself fully just as scum or if it's irrespective of alignment, but that's okay because a full comprehension isn't necessary when you claim another player to be "townier" for nebulous reasons.

Well, no, I know you get emotionally invested in games no matter your alignment, but I was trying to show Xdaamno that you being emotionally invested isn't actually a town-tell for you since you do it no matter your alignment (he was using your level of emotional investment to as a town-tell for you when it's not -- you've done similar as scum). Besides, I have other reasons for thinking you're scum (mostly, it's due to the stances that you've taken today along with other issues that I've had with your play over the course of the game -- and wow, your clearing of Korts as town because this game

just makes sense!

with a protective role doesn't seem to make sense to me given the other stances you've taken regarding set-up spec today).

Those nebulous reasons for finding Patrick townier than you have to do with my experience playing games with Patrick -- Patrick just feels more relaxed here than I would expect him to feel as scum, which actually gives me some pause about his alignment.

Never mind the fact that Patrick

shouldn't

seem townier to Incog because his horrifically bad assumption of the game setup would make Patrick and me Blue Scum together.

Post 956 is a possibility.

[Incognito]

Green Crayons: Yeah, you did mention in your post 866 that you could see the game having 2 mafia:1 SK:9 town, but I was under the impression that you saw this as the least likely possibility, and even under that scenario you still kept pushing the idea that I was somehow either an SK or a mafia-scum just because of my claim. You also inflated your SK case against me by trying to make it seem like Ether was even more obvscum than she actually was, and you seemed to suggest that her "obvscum-ness" allowed me to

know

that she was scum even if I was an SK here, which allowed me to prepare a Watcher claim since Yesterday. I can't see a you-town logically believing all of this. I

can

however see a you-scum forcing this opinion onto everyone to try and gain the win right here, right now. Further, if we take a trip down memory lane, you'd soon realize that Ether was far from being obvscum, which makes this assertion of yours even more ridiculous:

People's thoughts about Ether near end of D1

Yosarian2

Anyway, Ether's last post is giving me a better vibe; the whole thing feels honest to me.

Ether: Are you scum?

Especally the part when she admitted she lurked in order to avoid dealing with the attack on her; I was pretty sure that was what she was doing, and the fact she admitted it actually makes me feel a little better about her.

Yosarian2 begins experiencing a change of heart about Ether's alignment.

camn

And @ Ether.. Charter is not on my radar right now...... In fact, neither are you.

UNVOTE

Unvotes her. Pretty clear change of heart if you ask me.

You (Green Crayons)

This is a recovery mode post; I won't really feel comfortable until I'm interacting again.

Then I'm assuming you won't be slipping back into the shadows once again?

You didn't actually state that you had a change of heart about her but you didn't mention any issues with her for the rest of the Day either. Patrick's treatment of Ether was similar in this regard.

And then in the beginning of Day 2, nobody really focused on Ether until I put forth my case against her.

-> Korts focuses on Xdaamno and then Yosarian2.
-> Xdaamno focuses on Korts and then Yosarian2.
-> You focus on Xdaamno.
-> Patrick focuses on Korts.
-> charter focuses on Yosarian2.
-> Ether makes a post probing at Korts.
-> My case against Ether and

now

people start reacting to it.

So really, I can't see a you-town logically arguing that I could somehow be either an SK or a mafia-scum here since

1)

Ether's obvscum-ness wasn't soooooooo transparent that a me-SK would be able to pick up on it, push for her lynch while preparing a Watcher claim, and then come forward Today with my claim and

2)

if I was mafia-scum, I would have had no reason to bus Ether, my hypo-Mafia RB scum mate during Day 2 when she was under little pressure. I've played with you in two separate games and read through one or two of your other games, and you seem intelligent enough to not logically believe any of the ideas you've pushed Today unless you're scum and are trying to push these ideas for your own scum-pushed agenda.

[Incognito]

Patrick, why aren't you voting yet?

[Incognito]

charter, you really think GC looks town here? Like

seriously?

[Incognito]

Actually, here's what baffles me about you, charter: your last post seems to indicate that you're leaning towards believing that me and Korts are town and that Xdaamno and Patrick could be scum of some sort. If GC was town, wouldn't you expect him to have been quick-lynched by now if you believe all of this?

[Incognito]

A little less than 3 days to deadline, guys. Let's get voting.

[Incognito]

Well done, Patrick. >=( Did you feel any remorse when you killed me?

I enjoyed this game while I was alive. I thought some of the scariest moments of the game for me were when Yosarian2 claimed Miller -- given the fact that OGML seemed to be soft-claiming investigative and then of course knowing MY own role to be investigative, I found myself thinking that Yosarian2 could be scum fake-claiming Miller after he attempted to outguess the mod wrongly. It was a real tight-rope though; I didn't want to make it obvious that I was investigative, so I tried to oppose him using other routes (like the MD discussion thread). Then I began thinking that maybe this set-up is just screwier than I thought. Little did I know it would only get screwier and screwier.

Watching OGML during N1 was an obvious choice for me -- the soft-claim seemed town-ish and at that time, I was actually thinking that the set-up might closely resemble the Vollville set-up in that I thought that OGML was a tracker, and I of course knew I was a watcher and there was a tracker/watcher combo in that game too. I was surprised to see both camn AND OGML flip investigative. On Day 2, I was even more worried that my quick flip on Ether would make it extremely obvious that I was investigative of some kind, so I kind of expected to get NK-ed come Night 2. I was quite surprised when that didn't happen after all.

By the way, I really WAS buying Ether as town during Day 1. The blitz on me and the fact that a few of her thoughts seemed to be mirroring mine made me think that, and I didn't bother questioning my read even in the face of new evidence (dumb of me at the time, I know). During Day 2, I was actually half-expecting Ether to COUNTERCLAIM Korts with some kind of protective role, and I began reasoning with myself that maybe Ether is some kind of Quack Doctor (because she seemed fixated on Korts during Day 2) and maybe THAT's how I watched Ether target OGML during Night 1 for his death!!! The set-up looked so screwy from my perspective that I was half-expecting anything and even

that

didn't seem too far-fetched haha.

I think this set-up is EXTREMELY swingy. I don't see the average town doing anywhere NEARLY as well as this town did here (and yes I'm saying this even though we lost). I think the average town would have totally lynched Yos2 for claiming Miller the way he did, they probably would have lynched me or one of the other investigatives because of the "no doubles" meta (let alone TRIPLES), and would have just self-destructed in the long run. And a worst case scenario of allowing the town only one mislynch just doesn't seem very fair to me. Cross-kills must have been scary for the mafia and SK too. Either scum faction could have easily lost very early on if lynched or NK-ed, especially given the amount of town power. And I don't think the SK ever stood a chance of winning this game even with the Undertaker ability. Otherwise, good modding, vollkan.

[Incognito]

Sorry guys! I know I suck at looking town. I'll enjoy watching this game afterwards, but I regret actually joining it.

GC, I know I can come across as an asshole sometimes, but you've taken it way to far and it's hurting my enjoyment of the game. I hope I don't have to play with you again.

Vote: Xdaamno

Before somebody hammers, I want to do a long analysis. I'll start making notes.

I meant this, which saved me from being lynched.

Yeah, that and your high post-count were like the only things that made me lean town-ish on you at certain points of the game. Sometimes I figure if a person can post more than

me

of all people in a game, that person might be town, heh. It would have been a close call for me deciding between Patrick and Xdaamno if I was there instead of Korts. Xdaamno made sense as Ether's partner due to interactions but not as much sense to me looking at individual play. Patrick played a good game, but I always did have slight lingering suspicion of him because his play here did look different than I'm used to. It was just never enough suspicion to actually push a lynch for though until maybe endgame, and I don't know if I would have made the correct decision.

[Incognito]

Oh and ftr, I couldn't self-watch. I also asked vollkan that if I watched a hypo-bodyguard and he protected someone who was targeted for a kill, would I learn who targeted that person for the kill even though they didn't target Korts directly and he said no to that too. =(

[Incognito]

Vollkan, out of curiosity, was there any reason you chose to put in a Bodyguard as opposed to some other protective role?