No percentages for me?Incognito wrote:I'll just vote: Patrick. He has never been scum in any game I've been in, we've been in 5+ games together, so I'd say he's due.
The plot thickens.Ether wrote:You should also help me lynch Incognito. That vote was serious.
Not inherently. This one doesn't feel like the bad kind to me.Green Crayons, referring to omgus votes wrote:b) Hey, those aren't scummy at all!
This surprises me; last time we played together I remember you using just vibes semi-often to express suspicion of people. Do you feel vibes aren't legitimate (especially this early)? For the record, I can see where he's coming from there; Kort's interpretation didn't seem the most natural to me either and something about the immediate vote seems marginally off.OMGL wrote:It seems to me that Incog is trying to undermine a valid point made by Korts in 23 with nothing more than bad vibes.
Not sure I get this, as of post 45 I haven't posted at all because I went to bed and now I'm at work. Why did you prefer to vote me over others who've been less "interactive" then me? Reading on I see Ether agreed with this. Strange.OGML wrote:I'd love for you to elucidate on this. As of post 45, the only vibe I'm getting from Patrick is that he's been unusually non-interactive.
Not sure why you put in "a while ago", this game was invitational 10, pretty recent. OGML was replaced quite early, but during his stay in the game alot of his suspicions were quite vague with a fair amount of vibes or gut type stuff. Sure, I guess it's possible he's had a drastic change of philosophy since then and now hates vibes, but it seems unlikely, and I don't see why you felt the need to cut across this at all. Why wouldn't it mean anything? What are you arguing?Xdaamno wrote:This post is scummy. You seem to be thinking up points of attack, rather than noticing something that actually piques your interest. Most people wouldn't assume a "semi-often" mild behaviour in a game you played awile ago with someone actually meant anything (plus, I personally don't store meta information in this way, instead I just remember what that person was like, as if we knew each other in real life.)
This is just the way I post. It's not gonna change.Xdaamno wrote:Phrases like "for the record", "didn't seem the most natural to me" and "seems marginally off" also fit with this hypothesis; he's not being honest in his attacks.
You weren't merely making an observation, you used that to paint me scummy, and this response feels like a sidestep.Xdaamno wrote:Yeah, wasn't asking you to change. I was just making an observation.
This feels planted. What's your vote based on? I still want you to explain why you didn't like my questioning of OGML.Xdaamno wrote:Fairly town reaction, I think...
This isn't entirely true, since you've expressed agreement with some of GC's attack on camn. I don't think you responded to Ether's question about this - what's your read of camn?Izzy wrote:Untrue. I just yet to have anything concrete to add. I have yet to get a sense of how people are playing in this game. So far, I've yet to really agree with any of the accusations of scumminess and I've found the particular attacks to be less that scummy. Sorry if the fact that I have yet to form firm enough opinions on the game makes me seem scummy.
See, this is exactly what I think you might have been doing. I don't understand this defence at all, and it sounds circular itself. Why would we start by assuming your alignment then work backwards? I think your actions might indicate that you're scum who made a bad attack on me and kinda played both sides (saying town reaction but leaving a vote on in case there's some support), and I think that because it currently makes more sense to me than the version you've given. Please clarify this defence.Xdaamno wrote:Pre-emptive: Thinking I am 'jumping ship' is circular logic; if I am lying and I am scum then I might want to jump ship, but if I am truthful in my arguments and I am town, I would have no motivation to do so. If I was town and felt I was losing the argument, jumping ship would not be a scum tell because I would be town.
Can you explain how I missed the point? You say my phrases might indicate a scum alignment, I tell you it indicates nothing, what did I miss? I know that aren't trying to get me to change the way I post. Also, what's your take on GC?Xdaamno wrote:As I said above, I'll now try and explain why I thought this post was town. The "this is just the way I post" defense is something I think I see quite a lot. It completely misses the point, but I can just put myself in the shoes of a town player being confused at why they are being attacked. I feel a scum player would not react in this way, because defensiveness would typically be a more dominant emotion than confusion is such a situation, IMO.
I'd be interested to know what makes you lean town on Izzy. I got a kind of vague town vibe from her last post, but her play in general is hardly inspiring. Do share.Green Crayons wrote:While I think both are leaning town, I think Dizzy is more firmly in the town camp than Ether at this point. So stick that in your pipe.
I thought you were mildly supporting his reasons for voting me, have I somehow misread that?Ether wrote:(For the record, Patrick's starting to feel better now, though I don't get why he interpretted my 76 as support.
Yes, your agreement raised an eyebrow. It just seemed pretty early to be saying that.Ether wrote:That is what I was doing. Heh--looking back at your 85 I think I misread your interpretation. I'm not sure what you were getting at with "strange," looking closer. I agreed with OGML and didn't vote you for it.
Xdaamno wrote:Perhaps the vote is obsolete. I haven't done the mental legwork to decide if I think it is or not. Therefore, the 'expected value' of pressure from this vote is still above 0 (and would be even if we all believed otherwise, because we could all potentially be wrong.) If there is no negative to keeping my vote here, I'm drawing a net positive and so it's not worth removing.
Both the above gave me that impression - it should be clear that a vote on someone where you've said that you don't really suspect them and that you're leaving it there for pressure doesn't cause any pressure at all, hence my comment of you making up reasons. In this case I could see it as just a pride thing where you're town.Xdaamno wrote:You're blatantly ignoring what I have said. I showed why the vote could have some kind of purpose, and said I wanted you to either show me the benifet of removing it, or show why it cannot possibly have any value. You have failed to do either. Yes, the vote is probably useless. However, that small chance of being useful (by some strange mechanic) in and of itself makes the vote useful.
I said this already, it was very early in the game. Like, 35 hours in, and I'm pretty sure I've played games with you where I've started more slowly than that. What was unusual to you about this time?Ether wrote:Patrick, what was weird about my agreement?
I have talked about this, even though I didn't provide any reasoning in that post. I think the reasons he gave for voting me where shoddy, which isn't necessarily scummy, but he's avoided any response to that despite being asked multiple times - why do that if he thinks the reasoning's good? He didn't try to get reactions from me after that, in fact he basically acted as though I was invisible. Now, the fact that he's kept his vote on me didn't and doesn't make alot of sense to me; I see my vote as an indicator of my thoughts and it seems counter-intuitive to leave it on someone in the way he did, but after looking at all his responses, I think he believes what he's saying. Soskitzer wrote:Patrick in Post 122: Could you give us a little reasoning? I don't have an opinion on the Xdaamno case, so even quoting something of his that pertains to your vote would help me understand.
It's more surprise than suspicion of him actually. Why are you bothered by the fact he hasn't voted?OGML wrote:What exactly doesn't sit well with you about Incognito's stated suspicions. His seem the most well founded out of anything, since he brought in a quote from MD which would seem to indicate that this is, in fact, NOT how Yosarian would play town miller. The only thing that doesn't sit well about Incog for me is the fact that he still hasn't voted Yos.
He'd know better than what? I haven't thought a great deal about miller strategy up to now, and if pushed I think I'd probably not claim as a miller and hope to be nightkilled or not investigated by a cop, but it's a fairly debated subject. I spose I'm just not really seeing why this would be such awful horrible play coming from town. On the other hand, I keep coming back to why he'd be doing this as scum: that seems more like horrible play to me. If he did this as scum in the hope that he'd actually come out looking better or at least not worse from it, he'd have to be showing pretty appalling judgement, I think. Anyone can make a bad play, but it doesn't seem likely to me.Incognito wrote:Partially because of 186 and partially because this is Yosarian2 we're talking about. If this was some brand spanking new MS player, I might be thinking exactly along the same lines as you. If Yosarian2 was town I think he'd know better than this, and the fact that he commented on everyone else's reaction post except mine which points out an obvious inconsistency between what he said here and what he mentioned in a completely unbiased forum of discussion in MD makes me think he might be scum who realized he botched up his claim.
A vote on someone who is voting you isn't automatically OMGUS, and this acronym by itself doesn't really say anything. Please read the cases against Xdaamno and comment in a slightly less vague way.skitzer wrote:Patrick in Post 174: So it sounds like Xdaamno started that bandwagon on you, and then you voted him and now unvoted him. It looks like OMGUS followed by quick removal; however, I do not feel that is what you meant.
It's more of a gut thing, or I'd probably have said something more at the time. I like that her thoughts on charter seem to be running similar to mine, and I agree with her read of Yosarian's responses. I certainly didn't agree with everything she said in the post. The whole top three thing hasn't particularly interested me either: I think it's largely taste whether someone likes to give lists or not, and I don't think Ether asking for one says anything about her alignment. A much better reason to suspect Ether is the post she made voting Yosarian, and I'm surprised that you don't seem bothered by that at all. As for your issues with her post, I don't find them especially compelling, though I'd rather let her defend herself from those first.Incognito wrote:What is it about DizzyIzzy's 250 that you found to like?
I still don't get why the choice and the manner in which he claimed is terrible. Is there some special reason why a miller claim should come right at the start of day 1 instead of half way through it? Or something else that's terrible? If he wanted to get reactions with his claim, I'd say it worked.Incognito wrote:I do agree that claiming Miller as scum in the manner he did would probably be worse play for him as scum than as town, but I do hold by the belief that if he's telling the truth, his choice and the manner in which he claimed is terrible.
I wondered if you were suggesting that Yos2 and I are scum together and that he claimed miller to take heat off me. I still think it's counter-intuitive even if you weren't suggesting the latter part, but there we are.OGML wrote:What exactly did you think I was suggesting. I already ventured a guess as to what it was, but got no response one way or the other to that.
Yos's meta is correct in that Ether hates being scum and tends to lurk more when she has a scum role. I haven't spoken to her much recently but I know she's been online, so I have to wonder what her preoccupation is, or even if there is one at all. Her early play looks protown to me but I wouldn't rule out that she's scum who's frozen up after making a mistake.Izzy wrote:A look at Ether's posting history and her absense from scum chat, plus the fact that her last post in this thread was this:... would incdicate that Yos's meta-analysis is flawed anyway. Ether appears to be MIA at the moment.Ether wrote:I've slipped behind, and I've only skimmed the last few pages. I'm a bit preoccupied right now--don't expect a proper post until Friday evening at the earliest.
Except that what you are saying is pretty ambiguous. Like your comments on camn for example, it's pretty unclear to me whether you're calling out something scummy, something a tiny bit scummy, or just chiding her for perceived bad play, or something else. And on the miller claim, which is probably the biggest event in the game, I feel like you're in a position to go either way. I'm not saying every post someone makes has to have some bottom line conclusion, but it seems like they're having to be forced out of you. I've only looked at one forum game of yours so far, and it did seem different as you've claimed; I didn't have much trouble discerning your suspicions there.Xdaamno wrote:I'll try and contribute more, but that in no way invalidates what I'm saying.
So now you've laid out two different options, which do you agree with?camn wrote:Because insisting on a fact something with no reason at all, and no evidence at all, is generally looked at as illogical....and they have enough respect for you that they equate illogical with scummy?
I personally have no insight at all into the setup of this game. I am thinking LESS THAN 6 scum.... but that's about the extent of it.
Although, on the other hand.. maybe you have role-based knowledge of the setup, and them wanting your reasons is actually them rolefishing?
I don't recall asking about the setup, more just why you don't believe his claim and why you think the timing of his claim doesn't make sense for a protown player. I don't like this post.OGML wrote:Before I get into anything else, does anyone here other than Yosarian or Patrick want to venture a guess as to why the two of them continuing to hammer at wanting a reason for me not believing a miller IN THIS SETUP is terribly scummy?
Don't give me this bull. You said something that wasn't true, of course I'm going to point it out.OGML wrote:Why am I not surprised that when I specifically ask for the opinions of people not named Yosarian2 and Patrick they're among the first three to respond?
Yos claimed miller out of nowhere. It's surely your responsibility to decide for yourself what was notable about the reactions. How many pages behind are you? Your first post back implies only a couple of pages, but then on this page you're acting like you don't have a chance of catching up unless people link you to highlights.Korts wrote:Actually, I won't read everything if I don't need to. What was the context or apropos to Yos' miller claim, and what were the relevant reactions? Has there been anything else notable?
Actually I do think scum are more likely to lurk than town, and that alot of people don't appreciate that. I've found it to be especially true in games with fairly strict deadlines. A small part of me wonders if you typed that last sentence to see if you could excuse away your own lurking. Have you got any opinions yet on those cases you said you'd read up on? Why are you so passive?skitzer wrote:Am I incorrect in deducting that the case on Korts is mostly in his playstyle? It's lurky, but aren't we in agreement that lurky doesn't necessarily mean scummy?
I'd hardly call it proof, since you could easily be lying. Without wishing to sound harsh, nine pages doesn't seem like that much to read up on.Korts wrote:Instead of giving me all this flak for not catching up, you could have given me a few pointers. If the fact that I started with a page of backlog and ended up with nine while constantly reading up is not enough proof that I'm not capable at this point of reading everything, then I don't know what is.
There's been some places where his reads have seemed weird to me, which is notable because we tend to think along similar lines, but my feeling is that he's playing more like his town meta rather than the more low key scum version I saw in SPQR. The way he unvoted Izzy when she seemed to be picking up more flak seemed town to me as well, though I realise that depends on your view of how valid the case against Izzy is. I'm leaning town on him. I would, however, like Incognito to try and articulate his charter town vibes if he still has them, because I'm getting the opposite feeling, especially after his last.Korts wrote:A question: why is Incog considered so pro-town? Is it a build-up of a constant series of helpful scumhunting posts?
I think it's clear that Izzy had talked about her suspicions at that point (she'd recently voted Korts, for example), so "your plan is to just sit and do nothing until you see a connection" seems overblown.charter wrote:Ok... So your plan is to just sit and do nothing until you see a connection? What day do you think this is going to happen on? Why should we let you coast through until this point?Izzy wrote:Yes, you can. If, that is, you're not just looking to latch onto the first thing that vaguely doesn't sit right and call scum. Scum aren't the only people who act scummy. The art is sifting between occasional lapses by townies and discerning patterns of scumminess. I don't see patterns emerging yet, just confusion emerging from narrow focus and general theory discussion that does not necessarily add to the data from which opinions can be formed.
If this refers to what I think it does, I don't think there was a self vote involved. We probably shouldn't talk about it too much though.GC wrote:An incredibly recent game comes to mind about a scumbag showing really awesome frustration that looked really town and convinced the town to not lynch the guy because, in part, he was town-looking with that frustration. Being frustrated isn't a town tell by any stretch of the imagination.
I attacked your reasons for voting Yos, GC indicated agreement with not liking your vote.charter wrote:Where did anyone attack my reasons for voting Yos? I'd still lynch him in a heartbeat if he gets to six votes.
I don't know. If you're scum and he's town, maybe you're just trying to chip away at his credibility so you can keep the net for suspicion wider for later. Maybe you thought you could get a little pressure on him. Maybe you just wanted to add more content to your post and didn't realise you'd get flak for that attack. I'm sure there's other possibilities. I'm more concerned about why your attack doesn't make much sense from a protown perspective, and your recent exchange with Incognito hasn't changed my mind.charter wrote:Why on earth would I pick now to all of a sudden be suspicious of someone unless I actually thought they did something suspicious? Why would I pick Incog who's so "obvtown" to all you sheep?
I don't see how the two claims clash. Why would it be a nutso setup if both are true? This is a curious sort of dilemna you're making here.camn wrote:I mean really... what kind of nutso setup are we looking at if both those claims are true?
Is it likely?
Is it possible?
Does it make sense?
Are these even "pro-town" roles, in that they help us?
Maybe we should lynch them all?
Do you mean no scum players under suspicion right now? Otherwise this doesn't make much sense.Xdaamno, on Incognito wrote:Your relaxed attitude lately makes me think that if you are scum, there's probably no town players under suspiscion right now.
I did give an explicit reason for my vote, and it wasn't your "interacting rather than lag behind". Actually, even having recently come off you, I want you to explain why you're not reading the posts of someone you apparently suspect.Korts wrote:As of my scumlist: I still think charter is scum based on that claim, and he has been fairly scummy for a while; Xdaamno is scummy, but I'm not convinced of his guilt now; and the people who are pushing my wagon based on the fact that I decided to interact rather than lag behind--Izzy, Patrick I assume (although I don't see any explicit reason for his vote), and Ether I assume (her apparent case on me never got produced).
I don't know. I certainly don't think she was acting like Caffscum in the first part of day 1; she seemed pro-active and the tone of her posts was different to the when I've played with her and she was scum. The Yosvote still makes me twitch, though her return post sounded genuine. Since then she has seemed very disinterested in the game, which is bothersome because it's not exactly boring, and that does remind me of her disinterest in hunting scum in newbie 530. Looking back, the mention of a cult around the charter-vote seems weird as well because of how incredibly rare they are, especially in a mini normal game. I think she's a decent scum candidate and I want to see some more substance from her today. I don't want it to slide, especially given that a couple of people seem to have ignored the case made by Incognito entirely.GC wrote:1. Ether acts like Ether-Scum.
2. Ether gets called out on it.
3. Ether goes "Oh, yeah. I guess. I'll fix that, though, don't worry."
4. Ether continues to act like Ether-Scum.
It seemed like a pretty thin contribution, but fair enough I guess if you were just dropping in. I'd only checked the time stamp to see if it was a quick before work post. I don't feel his attitude towards you is inconsistent, because we're dealing with significant new information today that makes your claim look worse. By that token, it seems like you could be calling alot of us inconsistent today, although I do get your argument about how it was an easy vote.Yosarian2 wrote:As for Xdaamno; I'm not sure what you mean by "he's capable of better at this point"; I'm pretty sure Xdaamno is scum here, and there's nothing "better" then that. He was attacked yesterday for not voting, and it looks like he was told by his scumbuddies last night "Hey, make sure you vote someone today", and so he did. His vote for me today seems complety inconsitant with his attitude towards me yesterday, and it just really feels like a scum move.
See, I don't think this is a safe assumption. Vollkan's first post kind of implies just a town v mafia game, and in his last mini normal, I actually used that to help me figure out the setup. What worries is me is that postgame one or two people made comments about how players shouldn't be able to figure out the setup based on what the mod writes, so I could see him taking that on board. I also think SK is more likely than vig; it seems like we'd have a huge amount of power with a tracker, gunsmith, vig and masoniser, even if Korts is scum.Yosarian2 wrote:Out of 9 town
This seems like the opposite of what you said on day 1 about scum claiming bodyguard. Am I missing something?Yosarian2 wrote:Well, your claim would be convenient for scum in that it's not actually confirmable, it's not likely to be counterclaimed if you're lying because bodyguards aren't very common, and it's not a role claim the town was likely to lynch on day 1.
To clarify, do you feel his claim is more or less suspicious than yesterday, or about the same?skitzer wrote:This is tricky. The miller is just WIFOMy if there isn't a cop, so it's not really anything towards balance. If anything, a copless miller detriments the town.
Not sure what the second part has to do with first. You're saying he looks more suspicious because he wasn't nightkilled or something?skitzer wrote:I guess more suspcious: any vig (or SK trying to look like a vig) would have killed him.
Much as I think Ether is probably scum, this seems very manufactured to me. Do you really feel townies are never complacent? The thing that bothers me is that I don't think I've ever seen Ether react so apathetically to this much pressure as town. I've seen her do it as scum though.Xdaamno wrote:Lots of linguistic cliches in her last few posts, such as this one. I think that's a very strong scum tell because townies are never complacent. So, yes, an Ether wagon looks very good to me.
Yes it would. Seriously, you think that nobody would have suggested the possibility of two mafias existing if you hadn't? I know the first thing that came into my head when Ether flipped red mafia was that it greatly increases the chance of two mafias, and I'd be surprised if I was the only one. Xdaamno's interactions with Ether obviously mark him out as a good candidate to be a scumbuddy of hers, so yes, I would have found it extremely suspect if you and Korts had started heavily pushing a Xdaamno lynch without making a very concrete case as to why he should be our best play today.Incognito wrote:Also, it really wouldn't have been that difficult for a hypo-me-scum to claim Vanilla and help a Korts-hyposcum buddy push an Xdaamno lynch when GC and charter have both made it clear already that they think Xdaamno is scum.
I don't see this as especially relevant; it only takes one person to bring up the possibility, and I think you could have guessed that I would have even if nobody else did. I think the hypothetical you put forward would be alot more risky than you've acknowledged.Incognito wrote:@Patrick: as of right now, you're the only other person (aside from Korts who only commented on it when I brought all of my speculation to the forefront) who also proposed that we may be dealing with a two mafia team set-up. charter made it seem like it just dawned on him when I brought it up, Xdaamno seems completely oblivious to everything as usual, and GC seems to be suggesting otherwise.
I'm not sure Korts was as well thought of as you're suggesting here, but yeah, this is obviously plausible.Incognito wrote: If I was scum and Korts was my buddy, I probably would have just claimed Vanilla thinking that the town would continue believing his Bodyguard claim.
I don't remember; I know I was a little suspicious of the claim because she hadn't counterclaimed when a scum claimed her role. I don't remember putting forward that she had to be town, but it's possible; I can't be bothered to trawl through a load of chat logs now. Why are the situations different? The obvious one would be that Kison was about 99% certain scum in that game and there was only one remaining. As I've also said twice now, I have trouble with the idea of there being 3 investigative roles in this game, especially when we have other powers claimed as well. What do you find so shocking about that? I'm sure you remember that in vollkan's first game we caught our first scum largely because none of us believed that a mini would contain 3 investigative roles. The circumstances of your claim and his claim in that game are obviously different, but that's what bothers me, as I think you know.Incognito wrote:Wasn't it you who came up with the idea that camn had to be town in BSG because it would be stupid for her as scum to claim a role that already appeared in the game (Jailkeeper)? Why does that same frame of thought not fit here with me and my role for you?
Not every game contains a protective role. The only previous vollkan game I've played in didn't, so it doesn't seem like a safe assumption.GC wrote:I have no reason to think that we don't have at least a single doctor-esque role out there.
I can see scum choosing to claim bodyguard on day 1, it's less likely to draw a counterclaim and if he fears another scum faction, it's also less likely to draw a nightkill. But mainly it's because I think we likely have 2-1-3 and if he's town I'm struggling to think of a two person team I believe in.GC wrote:Outside of his actual claim and apart from my D1 squabble with him, he never really registered on my scumdar again - yet another reason why I am inclined to believe him. I actually don't understand you persistent suspicions of Korts, so I'm all ears as to why he's still not confirmed for you.
No, that's bullshit. You're not being asked anything unreasonable, you've largely avoided posting substance all game. The most you post is when you come under heavy attack, and even then you seem to defend yourself more than you look for scum.Xdaamno wrote:This is annoying, and made me consider replacing out. Mafia sucks here because of the meta that you have to have no life to play it.
It pretty much has to be, since everyone in the game except you has expressed suspicion of you.Xdaamno wrote:The mutual suspiscion on me in the last few posts is, objectively, from my point of view, scum-driven and has gone unnoticed because of a tired, bloodthirsty town.
I imagine that's practically the only thing he could try if that situation arose, but he'd still likely be in big trouble/probably lynched. If people believe it's mafia/SK setup, nobody would buy into another scum roleblocker even existing. Another one could exist if we're in a 2 mafia setup, but it hardly strikes me as a situation he'd want to be in, especially after people disliked OMGL's death on night 1. If you think there are a multitude of other ways he could explain away a charter death then feel free to list them. I think it would be met by heavy skeptsism.Incognito wrote:If charter did happen to get night-killed last night, why couldn't a Korts-scum simply claim that he was roleblocked or something like that? Do you really think a scum Doctor would protect a practically confirmed townie from an NK just to protect himself when there are other ways to explain away a possible charter-death?
Yes, if we've got two mafia groups I think both groups would have at least suspected another one out there, or at the least an SK out there. And as I said when I replied to GC, I could see scum claiming bodyguard pretty easily. It's a weak role, not too likely to pull a nightkill (certainly less likely than a doc claim) and it's unlikely to pull a counterclaim because it's a rare role. Your post seems to imply you don't think a scum would claim bodyguard, why?Incognito wrote:Also @Patrick: if you do believe that we're dealing with two scum groups here, don't you think a Korts-scum would have had some indication during Day 1 that he might have been opposed by a separate mafia-scum faction? Do you think a Korts-scum would claim Bodyguard of all roles while having that kind of knowledge?