War in Heaven II - Spirit of Vengeance (Over!)

[Hoopla]

/hello

[Hoopla]

Good luck everyone!

So, I'm not super familiar with what the most sensible play is when it comes to hurting and healing, but from what I've read of the previous versions of these games, it's possible scum accrue extra damage/powers over time. I think it's in our interest to play this game in a relatively quick fashion.

Hurt: DrippingGoofball

Hi!

[Hoopla]

Kinetic, do you think scum will be generating 'rage points' this game also? In the last mini that was run, they received one every Sunday. Reading through, there was a point where they had stored at least 6 between them I believe.

If scum aren't in danger, or under pressure, their best strategy would be to let them accumulate until later in the game where they will be more decisive. As much as 'quick' days will be bad, we can't allow gaps of more than two weeks in between kills, I'd say.

[Hoopla]

Sorry for the fourth post but I think this is also important:
1. Town lost last time because town's HP were already low for random hurtings. I dont agree with random hurting but I also dont agree with long days (more rage points). We have to find a balance.
2. So I propose we do a mass healing of everyone to take them to one more point of their current HP before we start hurting. This could be beneficial someday.
3. We also could manage to have a fake votecount instead of having people hurting and/or healing. Like a normal game when someone is majority fake voted we could mass hurting him and "lynch" him.

These are actually good points - I endorse them all. A mass heal would slightly negate the value of rage points. The fake voting works well too.

[Hoopla]

I don't understand the healing of players that haven't taken damage yet. Somebody explain?

HP caps at 1 above your starting amount. Bumping everyone's HP up by 1 slightly minimises the effectiveness of scum rage points, which makes sense.

[Hoopla]

You are, again, trying to take advantage of future indecisive players. Don't you know how difficult it is to gain a consensus,

especially with 5-7 scum counter-acting us?

Stop trying to stall the game. If someone doesn't have an input, we carry on and kill off the scummy player without them. We don't have all day to wait for sporadically active players to weigh in.

ABR, I think you're being particularly harsh considering how early we are in game. Discussing our options and the possibilities of the game isn't a bad thing - infact we'd probably stupid not too. I think most of us don't really know what to expect yet, or the ideal approach - don't create arguments just for the sake of it.

The last game only had 3 scum, and they happened to win convincingly, I don't think 5-7 is a reasonable figure.

[Hoopla]

The last game had 7 players, and the one before that had 12. 3 scumbags is a standard number for a 12 player setup. This game has 20 players, so 4-6 should be on the mark.

Ah, you're right there. Sorry about that. I think 4-5 seems about right - 6 still would feel too high.

[Hoopla]

Kinetic why did you heal ABR? Heal someone else, plz.

Even though it won't do anything, I think it still counts - if so, then there is a 24 hour recharge wait.

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, will you vote Kinetic?

Its important to me that you bring up any hang-ups, hesitations, or objections with us, so we can figure this whole thing out - and move away from setup discussion towards scumhunting Kinetic and his buddies.

No - and I don't really like where you're going with this. It feels like you're pushing something just for the sake of pushing it. Half our cast are to join us - I don't want to bind myself to a vote over set-up discussion.

Can you summarise why exactly Kinetic is scum? I think it's perfectly valid to question a set-up and consider other options early in the game. This game is signifigantly larger than before. There is a chance that rage points (if applicable) are distributed in a different way.

[Hoopla]

ABR: Thanks for your summary - you put together a case weightier than expected, but I think you're exaggerating what to me looks merely like a strategy disagreement.

I'm more inclined to put my vote on roflcopter. The go in and hurt 'em straight away tactic isn't going to work if everyone plays that way - we're just weakening ourselves unnecessarily. I also want to echo Nuwen's sentiments in

116

, in regards to conclusive claims. It kind of irks me and provides a get out clause if nobody probes, or follows them up.

Vote: roflcopter

[Hoopla]

right, hoopla dies right after kinetic

i love how i always make the scum squirm right away

Do you normally jump on anyone that questions the crap you post, or am I the special case?

[Hoopla]

Acyually, whats wrong with making definitve statements?

We know that town has no additional info

. There are some actions that tell you that someone is more prob town or more prob scum. Or gut. I usually play like that.

This is the point completely. Unless people are fishing for reactions, claiming definitives is something only scum can truthfully do.

[Hoopla]

Acyually, whats wrong with making definitve statements?

We know that town has no additional info

. There are some actions that tell you that someone is more prob town or more prob scum. Or gut. I usually play like that.

This is the point completely. Unless people are fishing for reactions, claiming definitives is something only scum can truthfully do.

No. Ive done this as town a million of times and it has worked.

The idea is to start clearing people from your point of view and pressuring the people you simple dont like.

I would probably consider myself a gut player too - but a fundamental part of mafia is the ability to quantify your gut into plausible arguments, and persuade others. 'Hurrrrr durrrrr, ur scum !!!!1' type posts that merely offer a definitive statement backed up by nothing are only good for slandering smear campaigns.

As for the part I've bolded - I think that's a dangerous way to approach an early game scenario when there is

no

information available - it's the first step toward tunnel-vision.

[Hoopla]

I suggest to avoid the general lowering of health, we use a system where someone needs to gain the pledged support of at least one other player (committing to hurting them if you do) before doing any hurting. Something like this:

Call intent to hurt *Name*

Then someone else needs to post

I'm with you, *Name!*

I don't think this is any more ideal - I see no reason why a large scum team wouldn't pair off and cycle through proposals/agreements until they've placed a player in kill range. This is a vapid effort to organize hurt actions; it doesn't actually benefit the town. In fact, it gives scum

more

room to throw out hurt actions because they'll be inherently buddied with another player. "Well, confirmed town x agreed with my hurt..."

This is the thing though- we're not trying to stop people killing! If scum want to pair up together, and kill off innocents, that's pretty blatant. The point of that proposal is to stop people wasting their hurting on people that no-one else suspects, and ensure a degree of consolidation- if you want to hurt someone, you have to convince at least one other player to support you.

The biggest drag on the game will be healing- if one side are attacking a player, but his supporters are healing him, then nothing happens, whilst the rage points build up.

This is why the fake voting system is justified - we can come to a majority lynch and hurt them in bulk. This is a safe, effective way of killing and doesn't allow a rage dump later in the game.

Mindless hurting on theory disagreement, or even scumminess in general isn't going to work. There's obviously two schools of thought here - but one is going to destroy the town and make us easy to be picked off if we conform with it. Stop hurting and start voting.

[Hoopla]

ABR: Thanks for your summary - you put together a case weightier than expected, but I think you're exaggerating what to me looks merely like a strategy disagreement.

I'm more inclined to put my vote on roflcopter. The go in and hurt 'em straight away tactic isn't going to work if everyone plays that way - we're just weakening ourselves unnecessarily. I also want to echo Nuwen's sentiments in

116

, in regards to conclusive claims. It kind of irks me and provides a get out clause if nobody probes, or follows them up.

Vote: roflcopter

Shows the reasoning ability to know that just hurting people is a bad thing, even votes roflcopter for it... but her first non-confirmation post.

Good luck everyone!

So, I'm not super familiar with what the most sensible play is when it comes to hurting and healing, but from what I've read of the previous versions of these games, it's possible scum accrue extra damage/powers over time. I think it's in our interest to play this game in a relatively quick fashion.

Hurt: DrippingGoofball

Hi!

Scummy hypocrite much.

I was wondering when someone would bring that up. This was the second post into the game, some time before the theory debate. I acknowledge I was wrong to do so, without thinking it through.

[Hoopla]

That's my M.O.

Check out Friends and Enemies

where I prevented a mason getting killed night 1, and got two scum lynched up until my own unfortunate demise. All this by outing my own mason partner and threatening the town to reveal the third if they didn't lynch who I wanted (scum).

Or Final Fantasy Mafia,

where I fake-counter-claimed a daycop fakeclaim by a vanilla townie. I successfully got this townie lynched before he could get another vanilla townie lynched, and then get himself lynched because the person he claimed was scum, was in fact town. I went on to kill the real scum day 2.

Or again, in Fire Emblem Mafia

, where I manipulated a player that had the ability to give a 1-shot vig into giving it to me, because I wanted the scum to kill me that night so I could activate my ability as a death motivator. I also got 2 of the scum this way (by figuring out how the scum would react to my pulling of the strings).

Point being,

I play a complicated game

. Mafia is a game of manipulation after all.

Where are the games where these gambits have backfired? The point being, if you're capable of such manipulation and desire to run the game yourself

as town

- when you have the same information as us, what are you capable of doing as scum? You seem to think that people should blindly trust you because you have higher plans, when the reality is, playing an unnecessarily complicated games will just cast doubt in the town's mind.

You don't need to lie, or have second agendas as town. You're just muddying the water, which although you may think is genius because it gets reactions and reads or whatever - but trying to run the game

on D1

when you're nowhere even close to having pure intentions is ridiculously anti-town.

Unvote, Vote: ABR

- The town would be better off without you, sorry.


Can you link me to your last few scum games as well?

[Hoopla]

Mafia is a game of discussion. Its only a game of manipulation if you're scum.

How many times have you been successfully manipulative as scum? How many times have you been unsuccessfully manipulative as town?

You play your game, I play mine. Unless you can show how my actions are bad for the town in

this

game, you have nothing on me.

You're avoiding these questions. If you're going to showcase your previous games to illustrate how your play can help the town - you need to show the times where you've fucked the town over with bad play.

Also, can you link me to your most recent games as scum please.

[Hoopla]

Really don't like this. Its scummy and manipulative.

ABR; in this post q21 accuses your play as scummy, which draws this response from you;

Check out Friends and Enemies

where I prevented a mason getting killed night 1, and got two scum lynched up until my own unfortunate demise. All this by outing my own mason partner and threatening the town to reveal the third if they didn't lynch who I wanted (scum).

Or Final Fantasy Mafia,

where I fake-counter-claimed a daycop fakeclaim by a vanilla townie. I successfully got this townie lynched before he could get another vanilla townie lynched, and then get himself lynched because the person he claimed was scum, was in fact town. I went on to kill the real scum day 2.

Or again, in Fire Emblem Mafia

, where I manipulated a player that had the ability to give a 1-shot vig into giving it to me, because I wanted the scum to kill me that night so I could activate my ability as a death motivator. I also got 2 of the scum this way (by figuring out how the scum would react to my pulling of the strings).

Point being,

I play a complicated game

. Mafia is a game of manipulation after all.

You link us to three town games where your erratic play helped catch scum - and although you don't explicitly state it flat out, you're using your town meta to justify anything that can be construed as scummy.

--

Then, in the games you just linked me -

as scum

you make similar references to your playstyle, using that as an excuse for dominating, and otherwise anti-town play. Here is an example;

Plus, I always play by leading the town:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 765#631765

Source

--

Here's my conclusion - stop trying to lead the town and make it look pro-town when it isn't. Unnecessary manipulation is something only scum need to worry about. You seem to be using deliberate erratic/anti-town tactics and then justifying it by your meta. It's an ugly circle that is time-consuming and frustrating to get the core of. Your playstyle isn't helpful.

[Hoopla]

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
In all scenarios PEOPLE HURTING WHOEVER THINK THEY ARE SCUM are blatantly antitown since they are giving scum (if they are not) the free pass of being aggressive and random hurting that WE KNOW its detrimental to town in the long game
THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN IF WE USED THE VOTING SYSYEM

WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
In all scenarios PEOPLE HURTING WHOEVER THINK THEY ARE SCUM are blatantly antitown since they are giving scum (if they are not) the free pass of being aggressive and random hurting that WE KNOW its detrimental to town in the long game
THIS WOULD NOT HAPPEN IF WE USED THE VOTING SYSYEM

Spread the word!

[Hoopla]

I'll heal, we need to stop hurting until we select a kill.

Heal: Kinetic

[Hoopla]

Hurt: Xyl

He's relegated to posting one-liners in an attempt to look townier.

What sort of rubbish excuse to hurt is that? Particularly considering your posting style.

I'm up for hurting rofl or ABR - even though the town is clearly operating on three different strategies. If I gather no support for these candidates I also endorse lurker hurting. Xyl isn't the best choice first up.

[Hoopla]

Whoa, I miss one night and I come back and have hurts on me? ABR, rofl; what exactly is your case on me other than wanting quick kills?

ABR; no, I'm not going to hurt you back and spread even more damage. I think scum has been very clever so far in the way they've managed to divide the town. But it's got to the point where there are that many anti-town strategies out there that we're just going to continue to self-combust if we continue to hurt without thinking.

I don't want to hurt a new target, so give me a moment to reread on the current candidates.

[Hoopla]

Okay, so we have WaltWishbone, zwet, roflcopter, myself, Shinnen and Xyl currently with damage.

--

To start with I read up on Shinnen first in isolation, then the 'cases' in context and it looks like a load of rubbish to me. I think out of the current candidates he's possibly the best choice to keep alive - I think he's been very earnest so far.

Xyl has been a little erratic but I can kind of see a method behind his strategy and I view his intentions as pure, at the moment. I think there are better lynch choices in this pool.

zwet has been useless, and although I haven't played in any games with him, from what I gather he's usually a good kill to go to when in doubt. I have no interest in researching his meta, but if he dies I will be okay with that.

WaltWishbone - possibly scum, I got an odd feeling reading back through his posts. I'm not going to say there isn't any content, because that's a lie, but there is a large sense of 'padding' and agree posts which subtlely deviates from committing to his own thoughts. I'd like him dead within the first few lynches.

roflcopter is definitively my first choice here - and I would have bit the bullet and probed elsewhere if there wasn't hurt on him already. The fact it's coming from somewhere I deem a likely honest source is also another incentive for me. I dislike the 'everyone hurt if you think they're scumlolO!L!O!!!' strategy - and in particular the attempts to separate the town and control it with his own militia.

q21 also makes a neat catch here;

Hurt: Rofl

for creating groups of "sure-protown-buddies", very scummy.

With an divine glow, Shinnen unsheathes her

longsword

, with the speed of a lighting, and swiftly yet precisely strikes the fallen Rofl's back, leaving a trial of fire as the edge cuts both the air and the flesh of the heathen.

hurt: hoopla

with a giant flaming angel

sword

of justice

It would appear we have two seraphim, we'll need to wait for the next official hurt count to be sure. If it is the case I'm going to be all for killing Shinnen and if she comes up town rolfcopter is next. I don't see two town seraphim.

Two Seraphims, although possible in a larger group I would consider unlikely. The only part I disagree with q21 is about killing Shinnen first - I'd rather attack roflcopter.

As far as other players go, I get a decent town feeling on q21 and Nuwen, and I'm still unsure whether ABR is scummy or just anti-town.

I'm ready to start hurting now though;

Hurt: roflcopter

-

suck it

[Hoopla]

Hoopla's latest post is still scummy. I made a large, nice analysis post back a few pages detailing why you are scum. go check it out. Shinnen is not a Seraphim unless Flay missed Hoopla's damage.

I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to those that elected to hurt me, as they just seemed to jump on with little no to reason. Thanks for trying to answer for them though.

[Hoopla]

Shinnen, before you die, if you're town, tell me who you think is guilty.

[Hoopla]

I'm kind of having a thought, and although I haven't thought it out fully, would it be in our benefit for the previous player killed to decide the next kill if they flip town (if scum continue hunting)? In a game where it's very difficult to confirm town, scum have the luxury of knowing it will be tough to get caught outside traditional scum-hunting techniques. This means the opportunity for scum-manipulation is greater, and I think in conjunction with some confused townies, they've managed divide the town quite easily.

We can eliminate this facet if dying townies select kills, as we know their intentions are pure. Although they could be wrong, we know they don't have a second agenda. I guess whether this tactic is viable or not depends on how strong you believe the scum influence is.

[Hoopla]

That's the most retarded thing I've ever read in a mafia game.

Can you explain why?

[Hoopla]

That's the most retarded thing I've ever read in a mafia game.

Can you explain why?

Because being town and being misguided or stupid are not mutually exclusive.

Sure, but mislynches aren't always based on misguided/stupid townies. Although not quantifiable, scum influence makes up some percentage of mislynches, along with the other factors you've mentioned. In a game with rare opportunities to confirm town, and considering how divided and hapless we've been at working together on D1 - it makes me think that scum influence is higher than a normal game where this ploy would fail.

You could be eliminating one facet that causes mislynches - scum manipulation. Stupidity and misguidedness are still prevelent - but that's also prevelent with scum influence in a majority situation.

[Hoopla]

Roflcopter - I admit I was wrong on my read of Shinnen, but I think you're being unnecessarily harsh. I don't know how to defend the 'case' you've posted against me, as it's largely you finding random quotes and assigning motives to fit my words. You could do that with anyone - it's an blatant smear campaign based on gut or however you determine suspicion, which I'm sure you deem as excellent play because you got lucky on D1.

I think the only things that look bad on my behalf was my opinion that Shinnen looked town. I think there were far better lynch candidates on D1.

[Hoopla]

What do you have to say about post 283 and 237?

Do you think my playstyle is anti-town and still wish to kill me for it?

In

237

, I criticise your playstyle as being possibly destructive considering you rely on manipulation and seem to have a craving for leadership and control. I stand by my comments here. If you're town it's possible you're capable of exploiting scum using your tactics, but the fact you rely on control and manipulation is dangerous for the town if you are scum.

283

is something I definitively still standby. The point I was illustrating in this post was that your leading the town approach isn't an indication of your alignment - which was suggested by some (you included).

Like I've said in my post addressing roflcopter, I admit I was wrong on Shinnen - but I still think your playstyle is anti-town, and I know you're going to parade around like the egocentric town hero because you hit scum D1. I don't like that you're using being right on D1 to justify your playstyle.

As far as wanting you killed, I don't know any more - because of my views on Shinnen it would have seemed like an unnecessary bus so I think some town cred is there. I still don't approve of your trying to dictate kills.

--

Who are your new suspects?

What do you think of DGB?

I have no idea how to read DGB - she seems anti-town to me, but I'm sure someone will be there to correct me saying the best way to play her is to let her fuck up herself and maybe take a couple of scum with her. Inconclusive.

I want to read up on WaltWishbone, purely due to him being in the spotlight, although I haven't seen anything there. Yourself and roflcopter consumed most of my energy on D1, which now seems not worth pursuing. I had a funny feeling from Juls and Viq later toward the end of D1, but due to me being wrong on Shinnen, it's altered my views a little.

[Hoopla]

and I know you're going to parade around like the egocentric town hero because you hit scum D1.

I have not done this

Maybe I interpretted wrong, but this...

What do you have to say about post 283 and 237?

Do you think my playstyle is anti-town and still wish to kill me for it?

...sounded a little bit like a 'haha, told you so' type post. Particularly the second question - the only reason you'd ask that is because you've got your safety net of being on the scum lynch using your tactics.

[Hoopla]

Now prepare to get damaged at 5:17.

What if I don't?

[Hoopla]

I don't know how to stop my lynch, particularly when hurt comes from players not even trying - but I'll be dead quite soon, so I'm going to try and post some final thoughts in the hope my words mean something when I'm gone. Don't finish me just yet!

[Hoopla]

Okay, so this game I think I spent way too much focusing on the wrong players, which I think backfired when I incorrectly considered Shinnen town. Although it makes little difference, I am just a Cherub so losing me won't be too costly for the town.

ABR has been jumping back and forth in my head - I think his interaction with Kinetic early on was interesting and should be analysed once one of them is dead. I don't know why, but the whole exchange seemed a little iffy, a little contrived. I hope the town doesn't let ABR dictate too much, because if he's scum I believe he's manipulative enough to screw us over. But to be honest, I don't know if he's scum.

I believe Nuwen is playing well and seems the towniest out of everyone, and although I regret to say, roflcopter seems mostly cleared. I don't endorse explicitly following anything he lays out though.

--

This post...

giving her scum buddies an excellent opportunity to pick up some early scumhunting points and possibly place themselves in a position to lead the town.

This seems to be the case with q21. Why do people think he's pro-town again?

...kind of got me thinking, and after briefly skimming q21's posts, I think he does fit that description. This one is mainly a hunch though.

Poptajo irks me a little - he spent his early game providing the role of concerned townie. I think it was a clever way to evade committing to active scumhunting or splid opinions, when town strategy was up in the air. He periodically updates his scumlist, but I think he slips under the radar a little. I don't know - I just get a bad vibe.

DGB and Xyl, I have no idea how to read. Xyl seems more town than DGB though.

--

I think there needs to be more emphasis on hurting the lurkers, or at least threatening them - particularly if some of the more active players die. Anyway, sorry for playing badly and wasting a lynch, but if anyone has questions for me before I go, let me have them!

[Hoopla]

Also, I'm capable of using a hurt/heal now, if people think I should use it.

[Hoopla]

This post...[/color]

giving her scum buddies an excellent opportunity to pick up some early scumhunting points and possibly place themselves in a position to lead the town.

This seems to be the case with q21. Why do people think he's pro-town again?

...kind of got me thinking, and after briefly skimming q21's posts, I think he does fit that description. This one is mainly a hunch though.

I said this when ABR first made that post. If your looking at me for bussing Shinnen in order to "pick up some early scumhunting points" go read the thread again.

I'm not going to bother when I'm just about to die - I was more putting it out there for others to look at.

And I'm okay with healing roflcopter;

Heal: roflcopter

[Hoopla]

What about if we let Hoopla survive a couple of aeons more?
Hoopla, I asked for a short opinion of every player here.
Another scummy target we could start hurting?

Okay sure - there are some I had little opinion of, or would be making summaries based on gut, but I'll go through the rest of the players.

Drench

- lurker, no opinion, I'm pro lurker lynching.

Juls

- I don't know really, I find it odd he ABR as his puppet-master, I hardly think he's been the model townie. At least sign your rights away to Nuwen or even rofl.

Kinetic

- I actually have read a couple of Kinetic's games before. It was last year some time - I forget how it came up. Anyway, there was a game where we brutally attacked from the opening post as town (by another townie), and ended up being lynched. I kind of got the same feeling from ABR's exchange with Kinetic. Although, I'm yet to read any of his scum games, so it could be a response/playstyle prevelent in both roles. I think he's worth keeping around for a while - his posts have been seemingly helpful.

Seraphim

- Early on, I remember he was being targetted for active lurking as scum. Reading through his posts he did seem to fit that model well. I think q21and tajo are better options though.

Tenchi

- You're in this game? Hurt it.

The Fonz

- Unsure, seems protown, I'm not sure if he's a bussy player as scum, and I don't have time for meta-checks. I'll leave this as unsure.

ViQleS

- Unsure/possibly scummy - this isn't coming from any indepth reading, more just influence from what I've seen others posting.

WLC

- Cybele seemed earnest before being replaced, so my opinion of this slot is skewed by that.

WaltWishbone

- I don't know why he's being pressured this much - was it his stance on Shinnen? I'm guilty of the same thing, so I think it could be an honest mistake also. Nuetral.

zwet

- I've heard about this guy, he's usually a post-whore right that doesn't offer anything insightful? Seems to be keeping to form. Okay with it dying.

[Hoopla]

Xyl can we have a hurt count please?

I'm at 8/9 I believe.

[Hoopla]

I'm at 8/9 I believe.

You know, I hate people who attack me because of my playstyle, and then later in the game, when they're about to be lynched, say they don't know what to think of me. Even if its the truth it sounds like a god damned lie.

I'm sorry if I've been harsh on you.

Hammer please.

It's okay. I just don't think it's beneficial for town when lies and manipulation is something scum

need

to do to survive. Although it gives you reads on people, I think your playstyle muddies the water for everyone else and just makes it difficult for you to confirm yourself without leading multiple scum lynches.

[Hoopla]

Good luck town - I know you can do it!

[Hoopla]

Hoopla is still at 1 HP by my count.

Does Juls' hurt not count?

[Hoopla]

[Hoopla]

Seriously, this game was lost because of players like rofl and ABR not letting the town fucking think.

This, I was actually quite surprised when they both flipped town. When the town wants to play as individuals and let ego run the show, the scum just have to sit back and laugh while the town fractures.

I played badly getting killed so early, but I don't think the town had that many redeeming plays. 15 mislynches in a row? Come on.

[Hoopla]

That was a really great set-up Flay, I think balance is hard to determine, because you have to safely assume town is less likely to play closer to optimum strategy, with many unsure ideas and logic flying about. I think heals really were underused, and the fact the town couldn't agree on one system or strategy (before it was too late) really cost us. I wish I didn't die so early in the game.

FWIW, when I was following along dead, I really thought Xyl and ABR were scum. I think DGB played well - I didn't see that coming at all.