Mini 727 - Mafia in Standardville - Game Over

[Darox]

Right then, let's cause some havoc. Reading.

Unvote

[Darox]

Right. Time for that havoc I promised.

First things first.

I am a paranoid gun owner. For those of you that do not know, this means any role that targets me gets shot. I am claiming now because I believe the negative effect of killing cops and doctors outweighs the chances of me being targeted for a night kill and killing scum.

Secondly,

Vote: Lynx The Antithesis

I really don't dig the way he reacted to the charter L-2 thing. It seems he keeps shifting his position with every other post.

I'm not a huge fan of the Artem L-2 vote from charter

, but I do find it interesting that Artem didn't vote. There's no reason not to vote. I think Artem is being careful not to draw the same attention he received from his first vote.

Changes to

I'm not voting Charter because

I don't find his vote suspicious.

I think it fufilled it's intended purpose by evoking a response. On the otherhand, you FOSed him. You've expressed some suspicion of the move so thats why I asked why you didn't vote for him.

So do you think it's scummy only because of the WIFOM? Do you think that charter is not an opportunistic scum pouncing on an easy target then?

Then changes to

Artem,

I would put someone at L-2 just to see what happens.

Mostly, as a means of pressure to see how the wagonee would react.

And then comes full circle to

However,

the part most of us find scummy is the fact that charter placed the L-2 directly after Panzer stated it was scummy to do so. This is a direct challenge to it and entirely WIFOM

(why would I place the vote if I knew it was scummy? What scum would be so boisterous?)

More interestingly though, is his defence and reassuring of BSG, but then sudden turnaround and denouncement of his actions.

BSG shouldn't be worried about the wagon on himself because the wagon is largely from the random voting. I think to say that's he's not worried because a scum partner's on his wagon is a stretch. I wouldn't be worried about it either because there's no basis for the wagon. There's little he can do to defend it. All he can do is continue to scum hunt which he is currently attempting to do.

I'm sure BSG is a big girl and can handle herself, so why do you feel compelled to hold her hand through it here?

And just for everyone's info as Master Ruck has stated, I first said BSG has nothing to worry about because most of the votes on her were random. So don't jump to the conclusion that BSG is a calm townie because I may have instilled some sense of safety in her without hearing from her first. Fault on me cause it defeats any purpose of gauging her reaction from the wagon.

The biggest problem I have here is BSG

did

speak up before you leapt to her aid, but you seem to be eager to state that there is no point in trying to read about her reactions because you 'ruined' them. It seems like a good way to absolve your previous actions as well as turn down any inquiring looks into BSG's play.

Oh yes, hi Lowell, hi Charter.

[Darox]

First, the claim. I'm not going to debate how likely the mod is to include a PGO because thats just playing with mod WIFOM and I already know the answer.
As for why I claimed right now, it's because of the negative factor of killing any and all town powerroles that target me, which I wanted to avoid. Even if there is only one other power role out there it still gives equal probability of being targeted by town or scum, and in the likely event there is more the chance of killing town powers increases. The small chance of taking a scum with me isn't worth that in my opinion.

And now, back to current events.

Xdaamno, it seems there's a bit of a discrepancy between your vote and subsequent post.

The original attack on Artem was obvious BS, but I'm surprised Artem needed me to point that out for him.

After a re-read

, it's a good lynch right now.

Vote: Artem

Saved by a rule that I hate... I'm not going to complain.

I didn't know that was a hammer.

Let me re-read

to see how the hell we got to L-1 on page 5.

I'm wondering how you could have missed an important detail like L-1 when you said you had reread the thread and then came back saying you didn't realize and said you needed a reread. It's hardly enough to get me on any Xdaamno wagon, but it strikes me as odd.

And now for the juicier meat.

Second, you're completely misreading the entire charter vote business. I didn't like the vote

PURELY

for the WIFOM aspect. Simply because Panzer right before said it was scummy to do so. Charter's vote was a direct challenge to Panzer's statement. I didn't find scummy the vote itself because I believe it was used more for pressure purposes rather than any other means. But the way it was brought into WIFOM territory was my major grief.

So you didn't like charters vote, but you did like the vote, and you would do it yourself, but you don't like the WIFOM. It seems you're holding a very contrary position here and playing both sides of the field.
But answer this. If panzer hadn't said what he did, would charters vote still be in 'WIFOM territory'?

Onwards...

Also, with BSG, I did say first that BSG has nothing to worry about because most of the votes were random. I said this after Artem questioned why BSG wasn't focusing on the wagon on her.

I said it largely because the reaction that BSG could have given had already passed.

Upon rereading the incidence, BSG had already proven calm before I had stated the defense really. Despite what I earlier said about my defense nullifying her reaction, I see now that her reaction was gauged already. She proved a calm, scum hunting town. Which is what any townie should do when their is no basis for a wagon on themselves and they have nothing to defend.

Now this is pretty much a textbook turnaround. First comment on BSG, you defend her and explain her calm response. In the second comment, you denouce your actions and state her calm response was false because you muddied it with your defence. In this third comment, you go back to her being a calm townie completely unsullied by your defence and even counter your previous statement that it ruined reactions by stating 'the time for a reaction had already passed', which begs the question of why you ever issued the second comment. You've done so many 180's that I'm surprised you can still see straight. And it doesn't explain why you felt compelled to defend her in the first place.

[Darox]

And now, back to your favourite show, 'Darox goes to town'.

@Lowell- I also have begun to think Darox's claim is genuine- but I dont believe he's sharing everything about it with us.

I realize my

main concern about Darox is not necessarily something that needs be addressed day one.

My

next scummiest

suspect is Xdaamno, for his unsatisfying explanations for the hammer-that-wasnt and also for what I wrote about it 123.

I would be willing to lynch Darox

or Xadaamno.

Wait, what?!

According to this, I am the person you find suspicious above all, and you would be willing to lynch me, but the reasons for this are "not something that needs to be addressed". Are you joking or something? I really shouldn't have to point out why saying "I think this guy should be lynched, I'll tell you why after we lynch him" is wrong.

The more I looked at these exchanges the more evasive they seemed to me. It's like you can't give a straight answer, or provide any insight into anyone you're ACTUALLY gunning for.

After Darox

, I find this behavior the most suspicious in the game.

I think we should hear about these mysterious concerns. After all, they seem to be so convincing that they still trump your documented thoughts on Xdaamno, so they must be impressive.

Lynx has led the attack on xdaamno

This is something I have to disagree with. Looking at his first post on Xdaamno...

The quick hammer by Xdaamno was extremely Scummy.

FOS:Xdaamno

Definitely want some answers on this vote. However, I am keeping in mind the fact that Xdaamno hasn't really been involved in the game. I think carelessness could be the major cause of his vote. He hasn't seemed to pay much attention to the game. Certainly doesn't excuse a vote of such magnitude though.

Sure, he calls him "extremely scummy" but also gives him several outs with the remarks about carelessness and really looks like lynx is keeping with his tradition of sticking a foot in both camps.
He further pushes the confused angle in his next post as well with this.

You haven't been paying to much attention to this game have you?

Really, I would say the first person to apply pressure to Xdaamno is charter for this post.

120- SCUM, explain Xdaamo

And he continues it as well as in his follow up posts, from #152 onwards.
It's only after this that Lynx finally picks a side and goes on to vote Xdaamno in #171.

Speaking of my good friend Lynx, lets take a look at his replies to what I said in the previous episode of 'Darox goes to town'.

his one was a fault on my part all led by the second reponse on the issue "denouncing" the first. In the second comment I adressed the whole BSG thing because I felt people were giving her too much credit as a townie because of her reaction to the wagon.I misplaced the fact that her emotions had already been displayed before I gave the earlier defense. Upon reread, I saw that her status as a rational townie under the wagon had been established already before my statement. Therefore I corrected my stance in the second comment. The second response comes from wrongly placed chronology of what happened earlier. Once I looked over it again, the proper order of the events were more clear.

The problem here is you're acting like a pendulum. You keep swinging from one extreme to another, while on average you're sitting squarely in the middle.

In the time between your initial defence and subsequent denouncement, one person (Artifex) stated that based on BSG's post which followed yours that she appeared to be a calm townie. Another (Lowell) came to the same conclusion, based on posts prior to your defence.
I'm sceptical about how much rereading you did, because this hardly shows that BSG's status as a rational townie had been established, much less that it had been established before your defence. The thing is, despite the fact your second comment disowning your defence completely ignored BSG's prior statements and the way it handwaved away anything that may have made BSG look town, it did have one correct point in that by defending her you did meddle in the way she reacted.

Which is why I was so incredulous when you suddenly turned around and disowned the entire comment and even disputed the reasons you had for issuing the comment in the first place. If as you claim you had read up on the events, what prompted you to take this stance? It really looks like you're just switching your position back and forth until you find something you hope I'll find acceptable.


Onwards.

I would only put someone at L-2 for the pressure aspect. And yes if Panzer had not said what he said it would not have been WIFOM whatsoever. The only scummy aspect of the vote was the WIFOM which I've stated numerous times already. The vote itself wasn't nearly as bad as the WIFOM that got mixed with it.

This is quite worrying. If Panzer had not said what he said the WIFOM would still be very real. It would have made it less confrontational, but in no way does it transform it from WIFOM-free to WIFOM-tastic.

Can you please explain to me in your own words why you think Panzer's comments make charters vote suspicious, in more detail than "It adds WIFOM", if you would be so kind.

Moving along, this set of posts really struck me as odd.

Incorrect wording on my part. I'll give you that. How about why do you think he's

scummy enough

to place your vote on him?

Asking Xdaamno for reasons behind his vote, fair enough, but...

I do imply such a declaration at this stage of the game.

For me, pressure votes are utilized more effectively earlier in the game. And to point out it's use for pressure basically nullifies its use for said pressure.

Basing votes purely off vibes is pretty impractical.

Also, didn't you say that while he was pressing you his questions came off scummy. Does that not make him somewhat scummy to you?

You're practically taking away any Value from your vote at this point.

The Value capitalization was a typo really. In regards to that sentence,

I feel your later explanation of the vote has taken away a large part of the usefullness of it in the first place

(largely the pressure business which was taken away by admitting that fact.

This really screamed out at me. First you ask him why he voted, and when he responds 50% pressure 50% vibes, you attack him for explaining that his vote was partly for pressure, on the basis that explaining a pressure vote kills it's value. Yes, it does, but

you asked him to explain it

. Come on, really?

Rolling on.
@Everyone who finds both Xdaamno & artem suspicious and also thinks that Xdaamno's vote was a failed hammer not a misjudged pressure vote: How does that work exactly?



And now, a word from our sponsors.

[Darox]

I'd actually prefer a Panzer lynch to a Xdaamno lynch, but first I'd like you to answer something.

Before your post asking for a Panzer lynch, you seemed quite set on a Xdaamno lynch. What made you change your mind and try to shift the wagon? It's obvious you think Panzer is scum based on your posts both before and after your question, but what made you decide to try and shift the wagon now?

[Darox]

I'd prefer Lynx, but if it came down to Panzer vs Xdaamno, I'd much rather Panzer because I'm inclined to believe that the Artem failed hammer was supposed to be a pressure vote and most of his following posting looks like the result of frustration more than anything else, while alternately Panzer's actions seem more genuinely scummy.

(Saying L-2 is scummy, sticking to charter/artem buddy situation when it doesn't make any sense, "Defended yourself sufficiently", etc)

I tend to be more sceptical of how scummy things said while frustrated are compared to things said while not under pressure.

On that note

Unvote, Vote Panzerjager

[Darox]

Darox - I also dont agree with the theory that responses made while frustrated arent as relevant to responses made under pressure. Players get frustrated because of the pressure- I find this sort of thing just as telling because they're related to each other.

Maybe you should try reading my posts properly rather than skimming them then assuming I'm wrong.

[Darox]

I promise you I did read your post. You say Xdaamno's posts following the whole Artem pressure vote thing you are marking down to frustration rather than scummy behavior, right?

I tend to be more sceptical of how scummy things said while frustrated are compared to

things said while

not

under pressure.

I'm saying I dont agree with this statement. So what didnt I get?

Darox - I also dont agree with the theory that responses made while frustrated arent as relevant to

responses made under pressure.

Players get frustrated because of the pressure- I find this sort of thing just as telling because they're related to each other.

Pay close attention to the things I highlighted.

[Darox]

I don't mind the fact that Charter has called Artem town, paired Dan and Panzer, and any other calls he has made. That could just be a ballsy town attitude that Charter has. I actually even agree with Artem as town now.

What I do mind is that Charter helped create the Xdaamno wagon who he was so sure was scum, then he shifted the wagon to Panzer rather abruptly, and finally he completely changed his mind about Xdaamno right before he was about to be deadline lynched. This move only makes me think he was trying to extricate from being a member of a townie mislynch.

Vote:Charter

Vote: Lynx the Antithesis

You're doing it wrong. Please show me where charter suddenly turned back against Xdaamno, cause as far as I can see, you just made that up.

[Darox]

You worded it wrong.
You said he started the wagon on Xdaamno, then shifted to Panzer, then changed his opinion on Xdaamno again. That would mean his opinion flipped scum/notscum/scum, which didn't happen.

Your idea that he was trying to distance himself from a townie mislynch doesn't make sense as he actively tried to debunk the wagon ahead of time and shift it onto someone else. If he had said "Oh I'm not sure about it" and then shut his mouth (

Especially if he didn't remove his vote)

then you would have a point there, but as it stands you don't.

[Darox]

One common variant of Hider is that he dies if he hides behind mafia.

I'm assuming this is the case.

[Darox]

Ow.

I believe Charters claim.

Yeah.

Nothings really changed my previously stated opinion on this game.

[Darox]

And the hider ability is pretty dangerous because if you hide behind either scum or a targeted individual you die. So that means there's around a thirty percent chance you will die tonight(pending around two scum and one target) So depending on your claim being true, if you die we'd be dealt a serious blow tonight. Say we mislynched and you were caught by scum, We'd lose three townies. Are you required to use your night action?

Why are you suggesting that the hider should not try to clear townies?
Why are you suggesting the hider should not try to avoid the night kill?
What makes you think there are two scum?

If I wasn't voting you already this would be enough for me to vote you now.

I think Darox should be looked into. He's come every couple of pages or so and just repeated his suspicions on me. He hasn't really expressed opinions or thoughts on any other players besides me. Tunneling like this isn't helpful to the town. He hasn't even really pushed for my lynch hard. He's only really just layed his vote on me and then just gone quiet. The only time he's really looked at somebody else was Panzer and that was simply for the deadline.

I'm sorry to inform you that saying "He hasn't expressed as many suspicions about other people" doesn't invalidate the suspicions levelled at you. And using buzzwords doesn't give you a get out of jail free card.

As for 'hasn't even really pushed hard', do you want me to go and quote the walls of texts? I'll even make them extra bold font so you can't miss them.

And of course, you're alternating between "He's tunnelling and only pushing me hard, ignoring everyone else" and "He's not really pushing anyone hard, he's just laying low"

Everyone's just given him a free pass with his claim. It's basically granted him amnesty until end game. Artem brings up a valid point about these investigation-immune claims .

Vote:Darox

Speaking of these investigation immune claims Artem is talking about. It doesn't make much sense for charter. His ability clears townies. He's actively hurting the scum team every time he successfully hides behind a new person and confirms their innocence.
It's confusing, because Artem as town should know that charter as scum would be hurting his team by confirming Artem.

I don't think Lowell's scum. Just a lurker really.

Really? That's interesting, because a little further on...

[Darox] doesn't seem like an active townie to me. When you just answer your prod to just say you have nothing new to say is scummy to me. It just looks to me that he's lurking.

What is the difference you perceive between me and Lowell that has caused such a drastic split in opinion?

Lynx, basically every reason you gave is not really true. He's given suspicions and opinions on others. He made a case against you yesterday.

I'm actually inclined to believe he's a PGO. I'm a Hider which is a very uncommon role and PGO is a fairly uncommon role. I wouldn't be suprised to see others.

I figured you'd be the first to speak out in his defense. The only reason you'd be more inclined to believe him is if your claim is really true. His vote has been on me for the entire game basically. He has pointed out things about others, but I feel like he's kept his suspicios very narrow. I know he made a case against me yesterday considering that all of you on my wagon have jumped on based on it.

Again, focusing on you doesn't discount what I've said. There is no minimum requirement saying that I must post suspicions of X number of people before any of my points become valid.

[Darox]

Maybe it's my "fence sitting" nature and cautiousness that you've classified me as, but I just felt it a huge risk to the town to lose two townies through simple chance. But now we know towards end game if Charter's still alive he has to use his night action. Which means he will doom the town's chances as we proceed further along. His chance of choosing town goes down, chance of choosing scum goes up, and scum chance of picking him goes up. This is why I considered it so detrimental to the town.

This is nothing but scaremongering. "He might die" is the worst excuse I've heard for not using a hider ability in anything but an endgame situation.

There is no good reason why charter should not use his ability at every opportunity.

Artem the difference between Lowell and Darox to me is that I think there is a reason behind Darox's lurky play. While Lowell I think is just plain inactive(And if scum want to use this style to secure a win, then fine it's just a game, but you're not playing it for the fun value of it). Darox I think is deliberately lurking soley because he believes his claim has secured him. The only thing for him to avoid is being killed is by lynch since his alleged role prevents any night action. Therefore, all he has to do is avoid drawing to much attention and cruise right along to end game. Hence, why I belive he hasn't been actively scum hunting and pursuing all leads.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. You think I'm lurking and cruising through trying to go under the radar, not scum hunting and staying low?
And you continue to think this despite acknowledging my controversial claim as well as the fact I'm the primary mover behind your wagon?

Please clarify for me, because it seems like your trying to discredit me for reasons that clash with what has actually occurred.

[Darox]

Primary mover? Haha. Far from it. On Day 2 you layed your vote on me with my Charter vote. You were looking for any little thing to get your vote right back on me. After that you don't even come back until the prod adding completely nothing to your case(not pushing the wagon whatsoever). Panzer's the one who got the ball rolling. Tubby jumped on saying he agrees with "Panzer's" case, not Darox's. Then, Charter jumps on which just looks like a pressure vote. So in reality, your reasons were used by Panzer, but Panzer's the one who got the wagon going. You just sat back obviously by your lack of anything to say.

You're absolutely right, I haven't said anything against you.

[Darox]

Charter, right now I would probably say Dancho, but it's not a strong feeling at the moment.

[Darox]

There is 0 good reason why we should lynch charter today.

If you feel otherwise, please try your best to correct me, because I assure you that you are wrong.

[Darox]

There is 0 good reasons why we should lynch charter today.

If you feel otherwise, please try your best to correct me, because I assure you that you are wrong.

[Darox]

Darox why are you so sure about Charter being town?

I'm not. But there is still 0 good reasons to lynch him today.

[Darox]

"If I'm scum"?

Come on, really?
That's bullcrap.

Vote pending final words.

[Darox]

Hey Panzer, active lurking implies I'm talking but not saying anything.

Maybe you should try revising your statement.

Also, that was serious derailment Ruck.
Panzer was about to be lynched, and because of you, he isn't currently hanging.

[Darox]

As others have said, Artem speaks truth. I also go for Lowell to be X just because I'm being slightly cautious with Darox and his PGO claim. If Darox is scum, then no prob as Charter hiding behind him would prove this and end all. However, if Darox is town and a PGO, then we have a problem. Charter would hide behind him, then get shot by Darox as a result. Scum know he is town, so they would let him live and when Charter shows up as a dead hider, we all instantly move to lynch Darox when it is actually a big mistake.

I actually think he would survive, since he ignores all night actions targeted against him when he hides behind town.

If someone targets me, they get automatically targeted for a kill.
Since charter ignores night actions, he shouldn't be harmed.

[Darox]

Who'd you hide behind charter?

[Darox]

Vote: Danchaofan

I think you slipped up there in your last post.

[Darox]

Freeko should claim his targets first, then have Ruck claim.

Anyway, about Danchaofan.

How is that buddying?

I'm not saying you're buddying, I'm just saying you're scumbuddies with Panzer.

Because if you say I'm buddies with pz, I'm buddies with pz. QED?

This is simple stuff, and I don't think anyone could accidentally misinterpret this. I think he's doing this on purpose to avoid the actual point.

Just saying "why the lies?" counts as saying nothing against Xdaamo.

voting before re-reading, attempted quick hammer are the unmentioned things that I felt were add worthy at the time of vote, other things also convinced me he was scum.

This is very vague generic stuff that anyone could throw together in two seconds. It hardly looks sturdy to me. What are the 'other things'?

Saying 'charter did something more than me' isn't a defense of your actions.

You're either a hypocrite, ergo scummy or not scummy thus what I did isn't scummy either.

The difference between Charters actions and yours (Talking about positions on Xd and Panzer) is Charter did something about it and provided reasons. Trying to shrug off the accusation of back-pedalling by accusing charter of it too is not only again trying to distract from you and the points against you, but also really not applicable because what Charter did and what you did really aren't in the same league.

I'm not saying you're suspicious because you didn't change your vote. I said you were backpedaling by saying you were less suspicious of Xdaamo and distancing from Panzer by saying you were more suspicious of him. Your post there was a pretty clear cut case of scumbuddy distancing.

So if someone behaves a bit more town I can't be less suspicious of them? If someone began to act scummy I can't say I'm more suspicious?

Appeal to ridicule, etc.

All in all, I'd be happy with a Danchaofan lynch.

[Darox]

If anyone targeted me, they would be targeted for death.

However, Charters ability grants him immunity to night actions directed at him, so he should be safe from my ability.

[Darox]

I think that's a bad idea.

[Darox]

Man, I had a harder time with that fake claim than I showed.

Every time I thought about this game I had to remind myself that I was A: Not Scum B: Not really a PGO.
Night 2 I actually didn't send an action for a long time simply because I forgot I was a doctor.

It was a lot of fun though, and definitely made the outcome more interesting.
I was a little wary when charter announced his plan though, I thought that was going to hurt my little untouchable thing I had going and bring him down with it.

I do feel I could have directed my protections a lot better N1 and 2 though, fatchic and artem were obv protects, but for some reason I decided to ignore that.

Apart from that, good game.