Open 120 - Rebels in the Palace - Game Over! before 756

[Qanqan]

Vote: Shinnen_no_Me

for having a name I don't understand D:

[Qanqan]

So this setup confuses me a bit...

would the rebels be Vanilla townies.... Guards be traitors... king be Mafia Godfather..

unvote; vote: afatchic

for pretending to not understand how the game works (obv scum playing dumb)

[Qanqan]

I don't get why anyone would want to break a setup, I think it's stupid... where's the fun in it?

[Qanqan]

I don't get why anyone would want to break a setup, I think it's stupid... where's the fun in it?

Its lots of fun.

Unvote, Vote Qanqan

Lets get a few more of these and see where it takes us...

Omg, OMGUS

[Qanqan]

Sorry all. Had a competition I had to be at over the weekend and couldn't get online. And I have a concert this afternoon.

For my random/jokevote,

vote: Empking.

Come on, guys, it's in his freaking name!

Will try to post more tonight.

I can't believe I didn't see that -_-

and the whole "poor scum" and "sigh, what are we going to do" (and then immediately saying that random lynching is the best) just strikes me as out of place.

I don't really see how this is out of place. Sounds a little reaching to say that it is :P

[Qanqan]

Scumtell? Why, why would random lynching be a scumtell? It gives the town the highest chances of winning. And, there's a general rule in mafiascum: play to win. And if an option would be giving you the highest chances of winning, wouldn't be taking that option the best course of action? In fact, many setups have been broken under that reasoning (like a single mafia versus one-shot vigilantes setup).

But who is to decide which player should get lynched? To me it sounds like 'random voting' entails mindless bandwagoning, which is exactly what scum would want...

It's true that discussion can lead us to a win as well, but it doesn't give us higher chances of winning.

While discussing, like in many other games, there's a higher chance that townies screw up and end up being lynched, as well as a higher chance that mafia gets to blend perfectly, meaning less chance of getting lynched.

After all of this, you still think that random lynching is scumtell?

I'm sorry, what? The basis of this game is the more discussion, the higher the chance of weeding out scum contradicting themselves. I'm not that experienced at this game, but encouraging others to do random votes rather than intelligent votes based on others scumminess just sounds painfully anti-town.

So I'm going to have to go ahead and

Vote: Shinnen_no_Me

[Qanqan]

Shin could still be a guard, but it is doubtful he is the 'king' due to attitude and also, if he was, and pursuing this course (for whatever reason),

I don't think the 3 guards would necessarily stand by and watch or "hope it all blows over" due to the emotional WIFOM/mindgame.

At any rate, I don't see much purpose in talking about shin until we get a replacement and see their response, etc.

Can you elaborate on this.

Also

unvote

, and no random lynch thanks.

[Qanqan]

To all people complaining about "breaking setups", please do not play in open setups if this is an issue for you. It's half the point. Play in a mini normal (or mini theme) instead if you want less knowledge about the setup, which in turn leads to it being less likely to being discussed and less likely to be broken if the potential exists.

Wish I knew this before >.<

...yeah

Trumpet of Doom, could you post the full maths behind those statistics so that I can make sure they aren't made up please

[Qanqan]

I'm talking about post 170, not 168.

[Qanqan]

eh, I'm sticking to Emp's past rolls

Vote: Lynx the Antithesis

Since stopping what we're doing midstream would be bad.

[Qanqan]

Vote: orangepenguin

heh, this bandwaggoning is fun :S

[Qanqan]

So are we random lynching or discussion lynching?

[Qanqan]

We have 9 players left, 2 are inactive/being replaced (although numberfourteen did vote on random lynch so I don't know why he is listed but at any rate) so technically that lives us with 7 players left in terms of 'voting'. If those 2 are town/rebels, then the remaining 7 will be 4 scum, 3 town; lylo with a majority of 5 to lynch. I.e. a misplaced townie vote (although, guards shouldn't have been able to confirm other guards so they shouldn't know and it be just as random luck if they do hope on a wagon) could lead to our loss.

On the flip side, if they're anti-town, thats 5 town, 2 scum.

Either way, I don't think we should suddenly drop our random lynching. It just opens us up for more manipulation.

Vote: Zachrulez

[Qanqan]

Too many numbers.. mind going numb...

Tell me about it

[Qanqan]

[quote"TonyMontana"](5/8 * 4/7)
20/56 = 36% chance of us screwing ourselves [/high school dropout]
To
What if we agree on someone not being king? To try to help our odds alittle?[/quote]

Do you mean, randomly choose one person not to vote for in the hopes they aren't king, so we have a better chance of hitting the king? I'm really hoping not...

[Qanqan]

omg noo, my first broken quote tag

[Qanqan]

Ok, who do you think isn't king?

[Qanqan]

Umm... Yeah, Zwet wasn't being serious in 302/304.

I would say who I think is suspicious, but I don't really know, all this random lynching has left nothing but a little bit of WIFOM. If I had to guess though, I would say hohum, since he has voted and is still voting Emp for reasons that don't really seem completely fair/relevant/constructive/valid (or something) in a mafia game.

I am feeling some pro-town vibe from Corvuus, like everyone else is I'm guessing.

Empking doesn't seem that scummy to me, and I heard somewhere that he appears scummy when he is town, but appears less scummy when he's scum... (which is just confusing)... So maybe a nulltell.

I'm not sure how to read everyone else, either. It's all nully to me.

[Qanqan]

I love it how people take me seriously when I joke around and say I'm joking when I'm being serious. 302/04 were jokes,

but now it looks like Tony is trying to look like Empking with the random rolls. Empking looks like town now, btw, for being the one who rolled the random schtuff.

Yeah, I find this weird myself. One minute he is drilling us how we should have used analysis and not done random voting and blah blah etc, then in less than 24 hours, he is trying to get another random roll bandwagon going...

and I'm not sure if TonyMontana was serious about the Zwet thing...

[Qanqan]

Yeah I generally run by the rule that someone that makes contradictions and inconsistencies is scum... so...

vote: TonyMontana

[Qanqan]

lucky for us, qangan isn't a player.

[Qanqan]

Yeah I generally run by the rule that someone that makes contradictions and inconsistencies is scum... so...

vote: TonyMontana

I'm sorry this vote is

very

scummy.

Do you and/or Corvuus genuinely think TonyMontana's behaviour is interpretable as making him more likely to be a guard or king? Firstly if he were guard/king his only motivation in doing that would be to clear Empking, who is his king. I've played with him before though and I know he's not that stupid. Oh, that and his claim it was satire is perfectly credible and consistent with his earlier criticism of our dice-roll method of lynching.

Anyhow

Vote: Qanqan

for poorly reasoned and opportunistic wagon hop using cliched "he's contradicting himself (not proven) therefore he's scum!" excuse.

Firstly, what does Corvuus have to do with me?

Secondly, yes, I do think it makes him more likely to be a guard/the king, hence the vote. His posts, though few, have already been contradictory:

295/297/299: He is telling us how we all need to use analysis, rather than random voting to play this game, and goes so far as to 'deem the strategy a failure'.
308/309: Suddenly, in the space of less than a day, he is trying to pull for another set of random lynches like Empking did,

which is a contradiction

of his prior opinions that the random voting strategy is a complete failure. Not even a reason as to why he had changed his mind, he just did.
324: Then, he does some rather scrappy backtracking with the good old 'it was just a joke' card. If it was a joke, why defend the random rolling thing in 315. The whole satire backtracking yadda is again,

another contradiction

to 308/309/315.

Saying the satire was perfectly credible and consistent, I don't believe that. It honestly didn't sound like satire, and if it was, well, would have been nice to say that rather than waiting another whole day to kindly point out that it was. (Even a [/satire] would have been helpful)

And as far as reasoning goes, I don't see how Empking has anything to do with this. The reason I vote for contradictors is that in general, most contradictors are mafia contradicting themselves because they are trying to get a quicklynch/mislynch/easy lynch in whichever way they can, and in attempts to manipulate town with so called logic, they contradict themselves.

[Qanqan]

You are both voting for TonyMontana, as I said. That's a bit of an obvious link there.

In hindsight, probably a bad move to vote directly after Corvuus, as it did look sus, but what did you want me to do? wait for 20 fluff posts after Corvuus's post, and then vote? I was already going to vote for TM and just because I found him suspicious, independantly to Corvuus (though it might not look it) doesn't mean I'm therefore his scumbuddy, or anything like that.

Taking account of the setup, why is the way TonyMontana has acted (apparently in a contradictory manner) more likely to make him scum?

Because it's a scumtell (sorry, should have explained my point better before), scum will contradict themselves more often than town, because scum often try to mould different opinions on different situations to try and get town lynched. And, in their attempt to get town lynched, throwing around different stances to help their cause, they contradict themselves. Town, on the other hand, don't do this (or at least not as often), since as they aren't aiming for a quick/mis/easy-lynch, they don't lie about particular stances they have, so they wont accidentally contradict it later.

Do you think zwet is the king and he is a guard? If not how would he benefit from proposing the plan in the first place, even if he later backed off it as "satire"?

Don't see how this is relevant, a bit of a red herring, since I never said anything about Zwet.

Irrelevant to the game but that does kind of defeat the point of satire.

Not being humorous also defeats the point of satire, as Empking pointed out. Hence, how was anyone supposed to know that it was satire.

So which of these (quicklynch/mislynch/easy lynch) were you proposing Tony was aiming for?

Well, in the long run, enough mislynched to win, and condsidering how the last random lynching worked out, both quicklynches and easylynches as well (an easy quickmislynch, I guess).

[Qanqan]

n hindsight, probably a bad move to vote directly after Corvuus, as it did look sus, but what did you want me to do? wait for 20 fluff posts after Corvuus's post, and then vote? I was already going to vote for TM and just because I found him suspicious, independantly to Corvuus (though it might not look it) doesn't mean I'm therefore his scumbuddy, or anything like that.

The funny thing is I never said anything about Corvuus being scummy- if you remember I called him my most townie earlier, then said:

I'm sorry this vote is

very

scummy.

Do you and/or Corvuus genuinely think TonyMontana's behaviour is interpretable as making him more likely to be a guard or king? Firstly if he were guard/king his only motivation in doing that would be to clear Empking, who is his king. I've played with him before though and I know he's not that stupid. Oh, that and his claim it was satire is perfectly credible and consistent with his earlier criticism of our dice-roll method of lynching.

Anyhow

Vote: Qanqan

for poorly reasoned and opportunistic wagon hop using cliched "he's contradicting himself (not proven) therefore he's scum!" excuse.

I never said Corvuus was scummy, I said you were scummy for the way you jumped onto the bandwagon. I did however, ask both you and Corvuus questions about your case on TonyMontana. That was the only "link" I drew between you.

Ok, I misinterpereted your vagueness, does this make me any scummier? How is anything of what you just said relevant?

Because it's a scumtell (sorry, should have explained my point better before), scum will contradict themselves more often than town, because scum often try to mould different opinions on different situations to try and get town lynched. And, in their attempt to get town lynched, throwing around different stances to help their cause, they contradict themselves. Town, on the other hand, don't do this (or at least not as often), since as they aren't aiming for a quick/mis/easy-lynch, they don't lie about particular stances they have, so they wont accidentally contradict it later.

This is true, in general. However in this specific game, in this specific instance, TonyMontana, if indeed he did contradict himself, did not do so in order to get a mis-lynch but rather to actually protect zwet. He did not say anyone was scummy, he simply made a series of dice rolls and used it to argue zwet couldn't be the king. Now how does that fit in with your musings on what scum

generally

do?

Nice strawmen, but I'm not talking about his rolls which were supposedly to protect Zwet (those are your words, by the way), and this crap about TM not saying anyone was scummy (Where the hell did that come from? You're putting words in my mouth now, and just making things up).

Don't see how this is relevant, a bit of a red herring, since I never said anything about Zwet.

No, but you should have done, seeing as your case against TonyMontana is actually contingent on his relationship with zwet.

No, it isn't.

My case is about TonyMontana trying to get random lynches going, which was contradictiory to his prior motives in the posts before that.

You and your logical fallacies.

Satire doesn't need to be funny

How else are you supposed to know it's satire then?

Well, in the long run, enough mislynched to win, and condsidering how the last random lynching worked out, both quicklynches and easylynches as well (an easy quickmislynch, I guess).

And who are you suggesting he was trying to get mislynched?

Umm, rebels...

[Qanqan]

I am curious about your hyper-sensitivity to being linked with Corvuus.

And I'm curious why you just ignored my questions.

Unfortunately these all boil down to exactly the same reason-

you think he was being disingenuous in that random roll plan, and genuinely did want to clear zwet (I made a mistake in saying it was Empking earlier).

No

(and in fact those dice weren't fixed, so he actually had no way of knowing who the dice would land on anyway)

Which is why I haven't been saying it was to clear Zwet, as it wouldn't make sense.

what I'm asking you is- even if he did backtrack and claim "satire" when his plans were foiled, what were his plans to begin with?

To get another random lynch like Empking did. Maybe there is a reason why in Empkings random lynch, everyone jumped to get lynching, but for Tony's, no one wants to go ahead and lynch (which would possibly suggest that the king is one of the first few to be lynched in his roll (Corv, Trumpet, TM)).

He certainly wasn't going for a mislynch, like you claimed, because his intention was to

clear

someone, not put them up for the chopping block.

I'm starting to get a little suspicios of you, ortolan, to be honest. Quite a lot of these arguments you have given are riddled with logical fallicies, and whenever you get a hole in your argument, you ignore it and attack in another angle in the hopes I wouldn't notice. They all sound a bit like scumtactics to me. And, considering I'm relatively new to mafia (on this forum, at least), you would have probably guessed I wouldn't have the knoledge and experience to pick up on them, thus making me an easy target. So,

Fos: ortolan

(No, this isn't omgus)

[Qanqan]

Oh, also, I didn't ignore any of your previous questions that I'm aware of. Which are you talking about?

Beginning of 356.

Tony's rolls weren't for random lynching and he never said they were. They were to determine who the king was. Again, it only really makes sense as satire.

He never said they weren't, and that's how they looked to me. There is more than one way to read people, you know.

You need to be specific here. Rather than just saying "I do believe you are spouting logical fallacies holes in your arguments" and "I assure you, this isn't OMGUS" you need to provide some justification as to why these statements are true.

I pointed out the fallicies as I was going along, with justification. You constalntly put in your interperetations of how I had supposedly interpereted the situation and tried to pass them off as mine, in the hopes I would attack them.

sorry, "I do believe you are spouting logical fallacies

and have

holes in your arguments".

Wow, that's a little hypocritical. You can't tell me I need to back my claims that you are using logical fallicies (which I had done to a reasonable extent) and then make the claims yourself with no justification (and no, 'it was humour' is not a valid excuse).

[Qanqan]

Um you just told me to read my own post. Thanks for that. Let's hope you actually had some, any legitimate reason for accusing me of dodging your questions and it wasn't just more mud-slinging, but I'm having my doubts at this point.

Gee Ort, you would hate to get too hyper... I meant 351

If you acknowledge your reason is subjective then that's simply poor justification for voting him.

Well sure, everyones scumdar is going to be subjective, otherwise everyone would always come to the same comclusion. You're voting me right now, but others aren't, which would make your reason for voting me subjective too, no?

Sorry I don't even understand this passage.

I pointed out some of your logical fallicies in my other posts. If you want to see my justification, go read them.

[Qanqan]

Corvuus is the king, Qanqan is a guard.

And you are the tooth fairy, and Zwet is a unicorn.

[Qanqan]

Will defend myself tomorrow...

[Qanqan]

So what am I getting voted for again?

[Qanqan]

Ok, I find it rediculous that ortolan is forcing this connection with me and Corvuus. Yes, I said he looked town, but so did Trumpet of Doom in 306, so did you. So why am I scum for my comment, and not you?

And those scumtactics of saying there was a link between me and corvuus, and then when I assumed you means because we were scumbuddies, you jump on me about therefore being his scumbuddy for interpereting it this way, that's rediculous. and so, I was ask again since you have avoided this question 3 times now;

You are both voting for TonyMontana, as I said. That's a bit of an obvious link there

How does me misinterpereting this vagueness make me scummy?

Also, how is 'Firstly, what does Corvuus have to do with me? ' an

extreme

reaction to being associated with Corvuus, as you said. What is so extreme about it?

[Qanqan]

Could you quote me where in 436 you showed me

how

your vague comment supposedly proves that I am scum, or at least explain, rather than just saying 'that it does because it happened'.

And you aren't answering one of my questions.

[Qanqan]

They weren't over defensive at all, just because ort says they were, doesn't mean they are. He is purposefully blowing this out of proportion to get me lynched.

[Qanqan]

Could you quote me where in 436 you showed me

how

your vague comment supposedly proves that I am scum, or at least explain, rather than just saying 'that it does because it happened'.

Could you quote me where in 436 you showed me

how

your vague comment supposedly proves that I am scum, or at least explain, rather than just saying 'that it does because it happened'.

Could you quote me where in 436 you showed me

how

your vague comment supposedly proves that I am scum, or at least explain, rather than just saying 'that it does because it happened'.

Could you quote me where in 436 you showed me

how

your vague comment supposedly proves that I am scum, or at least explain, rather than just saying 'that it does because it happened'.

Could you quote me where in 436 you showed me

how

your vague comment supposedly proves that I am scum, or at least explain, rather than just saying 'that it does because it happened'.

(I'm hoping if I say it five times, maybe you will actually answer it)

[Qanqan]

You are both voting for TonyMontana, as I said. That's a bit of an obvious link there

that vague comment

[Qanqan]

You are both voting for TonyMontana, as I said. That's a bit of an obvious link there

that vague comment

The fact you were both voting for TonyMontana was technically a connection. So that's another reason why saying "omgosh what do I have to do with Corvuus" was scummy.

Holy crap. You didn't answer the question again. The fact that your statement '

You are both voting for TonyMontana, as I said. That's a bit of an obvious link there

' was very vague, my misrepresentation of it doesn't make me scummy, it was just a misrepresentation, and as my misrepresentation is a large part of your case against me, and you have refused to answer it 7 times now:

351
354
356 (all you had to do was look around for the question, rather than just play dumb)
419
456 (you ignored it, and attempted to answer my second question so that I wouldn't notice you skipping the first)
464 (despite me trying to get you to answer my question 5 times, you pretend not to know which I am reffering to)
467 (You don't answer the question, just do a good old strawman)

I am assuming you are dodging it, because you know that there is holes in your agrument and you're trying to drag me around so that I'll forget.

-------

If you want a list of who i think is most likely to be either guard or king, I'll give it to you in order of scummiest to least scummy.

1 You, for this reason, and all your logical fallicies (if you guys want to see them, just read his offensives, you will see puts words in my mouth and plain makes things up)
2 Veerus(aka TonyMontana) for mindlessly trying to bring us to LYLO
3 Zwet, for lurking and making so many forced town comments
4 Trumpet of Doom, also lurking, but I can't get a good read on him.
5 Empking, for not bandwaggoning and basically sounding pro-town, so I would say he's town.

My theory on ort is that hes either guard or king, trying to look town by posting walls of text on a game where there is little activity, knowing people wont be bothered to read and analyse it too deeply, and just assume/hope that he's right. He tried to bring us into lylo with Corvuus, but unfortunately for him he turned up as a guard. Now he is trying to get me lynched, using flimsy logic, to get back into LYLO.

So

vote: ortolan