Mini 708 - Cheat Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Jahudo]

Hello. I'm off to read.

[Jahudo]

I'm all read up but I have questions about the trading/cheating mechanics so I don't know what to make of the recent talk about answer #7, etc.

Firstly: I don't like miller claim's at the start of day 1, I don't think it's in the same league as claiming PGO, and the only thing it does is make me pay more attention to the behavior of that person (which in itself makes me wonder why scum would put themselves in the spotlight immediately).

Secondly: Based on the game's actions so far I think Sirdan looks scummier than Nat. Here's some PbPa:

Sirdan 200:

A) Sirdan lightly FoS armix but I don’t really see the need of bolding it in that case if it’s not a strong feeling.
B) He then makes a big point out of Animorph not reading the facts about what Nat and DH had claimed, when in reality Sirdan hadn’t read those facts either in post 98.

Sirdan 98:

A) He doesn’t explain why he’s voting for someone.
B) He also misread because DH had preveiously posted to clarify that he was indeed a miller (and already wondering 2 millers), not that he thought but didn't know he was a miller. Sirdan simply misread like he claimed Ani did.
*To be fair, Dattebayo, Axelrod and Malthusis also misread DH in the exact same way, but they didn't make a case about misreading and the latter 2 could have been influenced more by Datte and Sirdan who were first to post this falsehood.

Sirdan 216:

A) Sirdan makes a good point: Animorph didn’t role claim, he only character claimed. Class Clown doesn’t tell us much and character claims aren’t even scummy IMO.
B) The fact that Sirdan understands that Animorph’s claim doesn’t have role information makes his day 1 eagerness to pressure look scummy.

Sirdan 253:

A) Sirdan says a counter answer claim to Animorph would get ani in trouble, but doesn’t ani’s role imply he has wrong answers? I think this is called the "No True Scotsman" scumtell, because you are eliminating a way for Ani to be townie according to his role.

Sirdan 286:

A) How were Nat and Xtoxm close?
B) Post 5 point is incorrect because Nat said he didn’t set alerts day 1 and then said he set alerts day 3. No contradiction there.
C) I agree his vote on DH could be seen as opportunistic because he didn’t state his reason for voting or say anything else in that post. His reason for lynching animorph does not look opportunistic to me, he gives a better reason than the jester claim but I’ll let Nat defend this if he wants.
D)

48 - thought ani claimed miller, ' I think it's town it sounds like a scum gambit i'd employ' what?
61 - 'i never said that '
65 - now he says 'the claim is true but I think he's scum'

I think you’re misinterpreting these, but maybe Nat will eventually defend it instead of dismissing your case.

Vote: Sirdanilot

[Jahudo]

Other things I want to bring up:

Re: Nat's Day 1 hammer: Given the sequence of events I can understand not knowing it was a hammer. It doesn't look like a tell since the vote count was incorrect.

Re: GW's Day 2 hammer: I would think that town and scum in Ani's situation would act the same way; ie: picking at anything and hoping it would stick. It doesn't look out of character so was that the final straw that forced the hammer?

Re: DGB's 284: I don't know what to make of the idea that people start out with 2 answers as standard. I would think that an Armix-town would only give a confirmed correct answer to someone he thought was town, so I agree that the other #7 is probably fake.

@Nat's 289:

StrangerCoug is not in the game so why did he trade? How do you not know who you cheated off of last night? And please explain which numbers you traded/cheated each time so we can follow this fake #7.

@Malt's 289:

Would an explanation (partial or full) help the town here? How much to catch scum?

@Sirdan's 298:

Would an explanation (partial or full) help the town here? How much to catch scum?

And I have a few suspicions after Sirdanilot but they are not strong enough for a vote:

Nat 74

Nat Says ani’s not scummy enough for a vote yet but he does ahead and votes, so he's contradicting himself.

Malthusis 108

A) Malthusis misread here because DH had previously posted to clarify that he was a miller too, not that he thought he was a miller. (Datte had the same misread in post 96, as did Sirdan in 98, and Axel in 99)
B) Also his opinion on powers seems conflicted. He thinks powers are tailor made to certain roles but he also thinks that is not the case for millers. He doesn’t explain this discrepancy.

Axelrod 118

Axel is practically role-fishing here by looking for the best townies to cheat off of or get killed by scum.

[Jahudo]

I am I Class Clown.

I had 1 and 6, B and D respectivly.

Armix and Sirdan confirmed that 1 of these had been right, and Nat said both were right. But apparently, I just found out that Electra used those answers and got them wrong. What gives?

[Jahudo]

A) Oh wow, that's such a scum tell. I bolded a light FoS. Sorry scumteam. Should I claim now?

Any reason why your acting more like Ythill than sirdan from Innocence Falls?

B) Huh? How did I misread this? Isn't this exactly what I meant? That DH claimed miller?

Point withdrawn. I missed one of the double negatives in the following quote:

I think he was surprised that there were two millers, he

wasn't unsure that he was a miller himself

, but I'll let DH explain that himself.

I thought you said he wasn't sure about his miller status when he actually was. A few people did want him to confirm miller after he already did and these people weren't reading close enough.

I didn't think of that his role implied he had most answers wrong. Anyway, he did have two right answers so how would that have cleared him?

I am now saying that they are lies. Electra used those answers and they didn't work.

He didn't say anything about which day he was talking about.

Since you can set alerts at any time throughout the day or on any day, he can tell the truth in post 5 but also set alerts later on and not be lying.

@Jahudo: Which post are you quoting? 298 or 290? 299 was Nat's post and I can't really tell which one you are referring to.

Post 290.

[Jahudo]

@Jahudo: please tell me how you "know" that the answers Electra used "didn't work." I mean, besides the fact that you may not have gained any abilities last Night. Anything else?

I got a list of the answers Electra submitted last night and another list of the answers she had right. She submitted 1 as B and 6 as D but neither showed up on the list of answers correct.

The only other explanation I can think of is she was RB'ed from sending in answers, because I don't what she submitted Day 1 vs. Day 2 and if she got any of these right answers from Day 2. The only info I have is from iLord, nothing from Electra who's MIA.

What interests me the most at the moment is trying to figure out the discrepancy between two answers that has been reported. DGB traded for an answer and got one, and then cheated off someone and saw another, yes? But the person DBG traded with, Xtoxm, is now dead and conveniently can't tell us where he got

his

answer from.

This is important and I think Nat can clear some things up by telling us which answers she received from / sent to who. I don't think armix would send along a lie to DBG, so it's Nat's line that looks scummy.

I don't believe this has been asked yet: @Master Ruck (formerly Electra): did you start with the answer to question #7 in your PM or did Electra trade for it?

I replaced Electra. Master Ruck replaced Dattebayo.

[Jahudo]

EBYOP: I don't

know

what she submitted Day 1 vs Day 2

[Jahudo]

Annoyingly, Jahudo said a couple of points I had noticed as well so I don't really have anything else to add on sird

You can still say your points if you agree anywhere or have a slightly different take. But for clarification, you're agreeing with me about sirdanilot?

armlx stood out at one point for me near the end of ani's lynching. Specifically the fact that he would have been the hammer had electra not unvoted 4 minutes before. At this point, some users were waiting for ani to answer claim yet he had not done so at this point. had electra not unvoted, ani would have been lynched and we'd be left in the dark and never know those answers.

Armix was already night killed and flipped town so I don't know what conclusions you're drawing here.

it seems like he's trying to make two correct answers look wrong and prevent town from getting powers.

Thinking about it more, the answers should be right. The two confirmed town having 1 or 2 of these answers (armix and animorph) make me think that something happened on my side to prevent the answers from going through.

No. Saying that he won't set alerts means to me that he won't set alerts. But this is a matter of interpretation.

I had a different interpretation but if either of us is going to change opinion it should be from Nat explaining himself here.

---

Natirasha should talk about this too:

I know animorpherv1 has more answers. Mostly because he said he cheated off of me last night.

I just got it randomly, I don't remember asking to cheat off you.

I don't believe ani 100% in that but I don't see what animorph-town would get from lying about this.

[Jahudo]

Guess what jahudo, you can't know if your answers where right or wrong. Before you call me a pot calling the kettle black (or how did it go), yes I said that 1B is right, but that's just what I

think

it is. Sorry for that.

Yeah I was reading things wrong in my role pm.

I saw this from the rules:

I will confirm that the player has been lynched...after which your answer sheets will be immediately updated.

And thought that an updated answer sheet would tell us correct answers. Obviously I haven't been through that stage so all I saw was the list of original correct answers off my role PM and the list Electra submitted last night.

There's also this:

In fact, one might say I only need three questions. It has not removed my miller status, sadly, but I did gain a power last night.

Which sounds like he knows exactly how many he has right and which. I don't know what to make of his idea now.

[Jahudo]

No, it sounds like Nat is saying that there are only three question in which he has absolutely no answer. As in, they are blank.

Ok that makes sense.

Now back to this:

I cheated off of DGB's test the first day, so I saw his answer for #7, which matches the answer given to me by Nat when I traded answers with him.

a question to malthy: did you lie to me that first day? I traded your answer to DGB

I believe malthusis's claim more than Nat's at the moment.

I would put in more right now, but the fact that only half the people here are talking makes me want to wait to see what they have to say first.

I could wait to see what answer Nat's replacement has about this first.

unvote

because someone is lying

[Jahudo]

We still don't know if anyone else traded with Xtomx so Nat's replacement should say which answers he gave X.

I cheated off X night 1 if that helps.

@Jahudo: are you now saying that the Mod. did NOT give you a list of what the "correct" answers were? You just made a mistake about that?

I got confused because I thought the answers in my role PM were ones I started out with + ones I got through taking the test.

[Jahudo]

I have no idea what Nat did during the nights, but I can confirm what Nat's answers marked (Well, my answers) are.

You should try and get that from Nat.
The important piece of information seems to be: What Nat traded to Xtoxm and where did he get those answers?

[Jahudo]

Nat. already claimed he traded your answer to DGB, didn't he? So why is finding your answer on DGB's test suspicious? I think that's what I'm missing.

I think Nat traded some answers to DBG but not the answer in question (#7). DBG got that one from Xtoxm. Right?

[Jahudo]

I cheated off of DGB's test the first day, so I saw his answer for #7, which matches the answer given to me by Nat when I traded answers with him.

This?

A) Nat knew he gave you and Xtoxm a wrong answer
B) Nat got that answer from somebody else
C) Dattebayo had a wrong answer down for whatever reason (unlikely IMO)
D) DGB is lying about the second answer (unlikely IMO)

Huh how did you know?

Is that "how do you know that number 7 (of the two #7's DGB got) is a lie?" or "how do you know its confirmed" or something?

[Jahudo]

@UROE: What do you think about the two millers situation?

Who do you know about Nat. trading answers with?

UROE: If Nat cheated off anyone you can get that info from the mod. That's how I got Electra's cheat off Xtoxm.

But the only people who can tell you what Nat traded is Nat or the other living people he traded with (malt and DGB).

If Axelrod doesn't know what Nat and Mana_Ku traded, and nobody knows what Xtoxm or animorph traded with Nat, then process of elimination might leave some holes.

Maybe PM Nat and hope he's still trolling around sometimes.

[Jahudo]

5 - Miller claim, claiming not to set alerts (although she did). Do I need to say more.

I still don't understand how that's a scum tell on Nat since one sets alerts at the start of each day, unless you think she did set alerts on Day 1?

[Jahudo]

For the record, did anyone cheat off Nat day 1? Was it successful?

[Jahudo]

I swear someone said they had (I haven't re-read lately) but I didn't cheat off Nat.

Is this what you were thinking?

I know animorpherv1 has more answers. Mostly because he said he cheated off of me last night.

I just got it randomly, I don't remember asking to cheat off you.

This is my take on sirdan's PBPA on Nat...

• 5 - Unless you can prove that Nat set alerts on Day 1, this is not a lie. He never unconditionally said he'd leave alerts off the entire game.
  
  31 - not a tell. fluff post only.
  
  41/48/61/65 - I think he means to say "Ani's character claim (Class Clown) looks true but is not entirely town-oriented. It could be scum alignment just as easy, which is a gambit to pull." I understood that from his original post, not his explanation.
  
  74 - this is contradictory. I'm inferring that he doesn't have confidence in a animorph wagon but that feeling is outweighed by not wanting pressure on himself. This could be town or scum I guess.
  
  85 - not a tell. fluff post only.
  
  94/102 - IIOA. He's talking setup but not scumhunting. Slight scum tell.
  
  106 - not a tell. animorph misread the game and nat corrected him.
  
  134 - not a tell. fluff post only.
  
  148 - I agree. He didn't express suspicion before voting. This could be a huge scum tell if the post count wasn't incorrect. Maybe Nat knew what he was doing and knew he could use it to defend himself, maybe not.
  
  150/152/154/156/ - If this was face to face we might know if he was acting, but I can't tell from that.
  
  168 - This could be a scum tell. He said he wanted to scumhunt and he was given an extended twilight, but he does nothing with it.
  
  190 - Theory talk but we had to say something to armix I guess.
  
  223 - Alot of people voted animorph over the jester thing. I don't see how Nat looks any different. Also, your post was overflowing with loose ends about animorph and armix so I can understand someone else not responding to a question the first time its asked in that manner.
  
  250 - not a scum tell.
  
  255 - Yeah, animorph said he didn't cheat so I guess we trust him over Nat here. Ani said he got them randomly though and I don't know how he could do that? Does this mean Nat is lying or Ani was confused?
  
  262 - personality tell if anything.
  
  285 - sarcasm is not a scum tell

I think only posts 74, 94/102, 148, 168, and 255 might be scumtells.
@Everyone: Does anyone have any suspicions to add or subtract from my list?

[Jahudo]

Fluff post = tell

Post 31 was in the random voting stage but I don't see what purpose he had of saying it as scum or town.

how could that be town

The way I saw it, post 74 did look scummy and I pointed it out when I first showed up. But I'm also considering that this guy had a thin skin and avoids pressure in all his games. I'll need to meta it.

no. contradiction with 74 where he said the game didn't interest him.

Did he play with you and Axel before? Does interesting in post 85 mean he doesn't want to play with you or he is looking forward to it?

to me it's more that he's trying to say that the speculation is 'obvious'. it isn't

Another thing about post 102 is that he is responding to an Axel quote but he doesn't actually answer Axel's question. Axel asked "what about this setup leads to multiple millers?" but Nat answers "It's obvious that our powers are to not be millers". It feels to me that Nat had been thinking about this power idea for a while and wanted to tell it to us. It is certainly there to make us believe his claim.

this is slight setup speculation but w/e

Do you mean he's speculating that whoever talked about there being a death miller also thinks this is a bastard-mod game? If so I see your point.

Even if he didn't know that he was hammering, so mindlessly voting him to put him at l-1 and then saying 'damn I hammered him' is scummy enough in itself. how can you not see that.

If the vote count had been accurate and Nat still did that I would say lynch him, end of story.

I have no idea.

Post 168 is scummy because he said he wanted the chance to scumhunt and 168 was his chance to do so, but he said nothing in that post. At twilight only town want to scumhunt, while scum want to night kill.

Post 223 - You brought that up but I don't understand why Nat looks scummy but malthusis doesn't?

Post 255 - Do you think Animorph was A) Telling the truth or B) Confused at the question. If A, then Nat is scum and we should lynch him now. And explain how A is true because Ani confused me with this post so I think B.

285 - way to dismiss what he said and just look at the 'sarcasm' brackets.

I'll look for this too in the meta and see if he uses sarcasm as scum. It was late in the game for jokes but it just sounded to me like he couldn't handle a little suspicion.

[Jahudo]

My vote is staying on Jahudo for now, but I'll do a brief reread soon and see if anything changes.

Was the vote for me creating a distraction, for misreading the game mechanics, or something else?

I'm sticking with my Jahudo vote as he's done nothing as far as I can see to make me think I was wrong

I don't know what type of suspicion this is. Was this just looking town in general or does this also refer to the distraction?

[Jahudo]

Does this sound like mutual bus'ing?

I don't think Ruck is scum. I'd put UROE or Sirdan as scum but not Ruck at the moment.

[Jahudo]

Nat says that he

said

he cheated off him n1, but

did

he cheat off him? Ani only said that he

hasn't asked

to cheat off Nat, not that he

hasn't done it

. And "I just got it randomly" what is that supposed to mean. Maybe that he randomly picked someone to cheat off of, but does that even matter?

That's what I'm trying to figure out but I don't know what Animorph meant by "I got them randomly" either. Since Ani is town maybe he did ask the mod to pick a target at random, or maybe random cheating is in his role ability as Class Clown.

I know animorpherv1 has more answers.

Mostly because he said he cheated off of me last night.

What do you make of this second line? I can't find Animorph saying that in thread so I think Nat is claiming to have talked with Animorph in PMs.

I just got it randomly, I don't remember asking to cheat off you.

And that's how Ani responds. He doesn't mention outside of game conversations, but he doesn't call Nat a liar either.

So I think Nat is either lying or Ani didn't provide everything he knew at L-1. He didn't explain what random cheating was or if Nat had talked to him in PMs which sounds like something you'd want to give if you're asking people not to lynch you.

[Jahudo]

To be honest, look at post 74. He suspects animorpher. Since animorpher was a newbie I don't think that he would find someone who is voting him pro-town. Not pro-town enough to pm.

True and the only reason I can think of Nat PM'ing Ani is as Nat-scum trying to trick him with wrong answers.

Look at post 105, he suspects nat for claiming death miller (which he didn't, but that doesn't matter). He takes that back in 107, but look at 111; when he takes it back about DH, he doesn't unvote him. So for some reason he still suspects DH enough, and it would be only logical to extend that to Natirasha. Remember I am just following ani's logic here.

107 Ani still "knows" that DH claimed death miller so in his confused mind the case is still against DH but not Nat with this point.
111 Ani drops the case against DH but says

I am sorry, however, you don't seem to be posting much. I'd like to see some more activity from you.

So the case on now about lurking I guess? But this looks more like self-preservation than voting confidence. Anyway, it's irrelevant to Nat tells.

If you can point me to even a single day 1 post where ani said nat was pro town, we should immediately unvote nat. But you probably can't. That's why I still think Nat is scum and we should lynch him.

I can't and with deadline 5 days away I'll go ahead and

Vote: UnofficialRulerOfEveryone

[Jahudo]

DGB, who is your top suspect? You've mentioned that occam's razor points to Nat as lying about that #7 answer and you've wondered why "the miller is still alive?" but you haven't voted for him or directly said you think Nat was scum. You also haven't presented any other case so what do you think about the cases being discussed?

[Jahudo]

Mod: That second Sirdanilot voting UROE should be me.

Also, UROE is getting replaced?

[Jahudo]

I thought he was just busy. And I thought you were against setup speculating with ani's class clown role.

[Jahudo]

This about sird, I really don't like him.

What about him? Is it something about his actions today?

Dattebayo seemed pretty scummy to me,

sirdanilot - Pretty scummy, not much reason to re-read though, I think s/he has had some pro-town posts and ideas, but not sure about the total of all of his/her posts.

Axelrod - My top pick for scum, I will re-read him soon.

Can you go into detail about your thoughts here? Are they primarily gut or can you point to specific areas of their play in this game?

Also I know Nat claimed and talked about his trading and cheating, but since you're at L-1 is there anything you want to confirm, deny, or add to the claim?

[Jahudo]

Dattebayo was a lurker, never really helped the town...

I looked through his posts and he actually posted more often than Nat and had shorter periods of inactivity than Nat who was missing for 5 days at one point.

Sird is gut, and the fact that s/he hasn't been totally consistent in thoughts.

Where? Did I mention them in my case or did I miss something?

[Jahudo]

What?

Why?

I mean, what about sirdan is inconsistent? Did I bring it up in post 318 or is it something I've missed when reading into him?

[Jahudo]

Mod: Can you prod GhostWriter? It's been 8 days since his last post.

[Jahudo]

Ruck: Is that a power you had from the start or was it gained through test answers?

[Jahudo]

It is probably a good day to massclaim just to be safe. If there are 2 scum left (I think so), then they only need a mislynch here and a successful NK without getting vigged to win the game.

I don't think it is impossible to think that DGB bussed her partner, because I think it's possible, but we shouldn't rush into something that could be a trap.

[Jahudo]

The 3 mafia 1 SK setup is common enough for a 12 player game that I’m assuming that’s what we’re looking at. Having 3 mafia players in day 3 of a 12 player game would make them confidant enough to buss a player and still feel like they have the upper hand, but I still want to look at the 2 people that did not vote for UROE:

GhostWriter

Considering my stance on the miller claim (I believe it, for the most part)

Why did you wait until day 3 to believe the miller claim?

I've already said that I believe the miller claim, for the most part. This is because I feel that it's most helpful to the town for claim miller, if you know that you are one, early on. I've never been a supporter of the "lynch all millers" ideal, but I that doesn't make me completely exclude them if there's a strong enough case on them.

Why did you not believe Der Hammer’s miller claim from the start and vote for him on day 1? Why did you not comment on Nat’s claim and instead only refer to him on peripheral issues like his speculation on gained powers, or his speculation on character claims? What was your opinion of Nat then and how did it change through day 3?

Master Ruck

I'll post my thoughts on Nat/UROE soon as well. Not right now, though, as another game I'm in is almost at deadline.

Why didn’t you follow through with this?

If Nat is truly the miller, which I believe, then waiting for any kind of cop scan on him before claiming will bring suspicion to everyone instantly by saying that the claim seems too convenient.

Sure Nat may have said something that makes him suspicious, but so does everyone at one point so I believe his claim and that he's town.

Why did you feel the need to add the sentence I bolded here? Sirdan only asked you if you though claiming miller day 1 was a good strategy. Why did you preemptively give Nat the benefit of the doubt and think he was town?

I'm feeling a bit iffy on Nat/UROE so I'm gonna do a read on them next

What did you mean by iffy? Why didn’t you expand on this any?

[Jahudo]

Everyone: Massclaim today or not?

Last night, I received the ability to pick the locks on student lockers.

Why did you choose Axelrod?

Gained through answers. It was a one-shot so I don't have it anymore, but I scanned DGB and he turned up as a bad kid. Bold red lettering, so I'm gonna count that as scum.

What was the flavor like in your "scan" or did you not get any flavor?

I earned a power too but it wasn't powerful at all so I am hesitant to believe these other powers.

[Jahudo]

@DGB: How did you manage to pick the lock?

[Jahudo]

@Master Ruck: Why did you target DGB? Particularly why did you target someone who was on UROE's lynch wagon?

@GhostWriter: Did you have alerts on anyone last night?

[Jahudo]

I wanted to know if the power I used last night was necessary.

The power I gained allowed me to bypass an alert to get an answer from somebody and I choose you because I figured you'd have an alert on me. I said my power wasn't that powerful because all it does is give me another unconfirmed answer when I already have a power.

I guess this power only makes sense if it's possible to get an additional power, but I don't know if any of this is going to help us find scum.

I asked DGB about picking the lock because my power came from an item too. This makes me think that they are real claims but not indicative of an alignment.

That, in no way, resembles picking a lock. That's cutting a lock. The two aren't really related.

Agreed but maybe she has an explanation.

[Jahudo]

We need to hear from Sirdan.

I wouldn't mind a full claim from DGB but Sirdan should post at least once first.

if she were telling the truth, then the scum team would be Master Ruck and myself (me because of her "result" and him because of lying about her), and we would have just put everything on the line to get DGB lynched today, which might possibly win the game, I suppose - except if there is a vig. in the town, or a Doc, or a RBer, or anything to prevent a successful kill tonight.

That does sound risky, but why do you think there is a vig? I think the Psychopath flip tells us there was a 2nd killing faction that chose not to kill ever so do you still think it's possible to have 3 nk forces in a mini game?

[Jahudo]

That's possible, but I want to explore more scenarios before I feel comfortable with DGB at L-1.

[Jahudo]

I don't mind claiming, I'm the Poor Little Rich Girl.

Is that a power role?

[Jahudo]

the sk or psychopath (what's the difference?)

Typically a Psychopath is linked to a Psychiatrist on the town side. That might provide us with a confirmed townie who doesn't have a PR anymore since the psychopath is dead. So I think a Psy might as well claim unless they have a good earned power from answering questions.

[Jahudo]

Like I said I believe both claims that they received power roles through correct answers because the flavor of getting an item matches my experience. I don't think anyone had previously let this flavor info loose in the thread. I also feel that this game wouldn't mess with sanities for an earned power. So that means one is lying and we either have Ruck/Axel as scum or DGB/??? as scum.

If we don’t lynch scum today and we don’t have a vig/RB/doc to kill scum or stop the scum kill tonight then we lose the game.

DGB:

DGB only mentions Nat when she disbelieves his miller claim and sticks to that as her reason for voting and lynching him. She comes out with this stance early on but like most people she voted for DH day 1. Then she forgot about her miller attack and went after animorph day 2. Then she returns to her miller lynch day 3 before any votes appeared on Nat:

I got Xtomx's answers directly from him. Those may be tainted. He exchanged with people. Some of which may be the Miller's scumbuddies.

Axelrod:

First impression is that the "two miller" thing is some bad juju. I'm pretty sure I've never seen that before and I think it highly likely at least one of them is full of it.

It sounds like he's willing to lynch the second one if the first one comes up town.

But Der Hammer also said (late) that he misread his PM and he wasn't actually a miller. So the "two miller" issue may, in fact, be a non-issue. This doesn't mean there aren't other reasons to vote Natirasha. Beginning of day review is in order.

Is able to retract his first statement because DH wasn't actually a miller, so now Nat can be. Also promises to come up with a Nat case.

I'm apologizing for slacking on this game, I've been very distracted recently. Of course, three other people have yet to post at all.

Doesn't come up with a Nat case.

I think that looking at Nat. is a good place to start the day.

Day 3 says Nat is a good place to investigate but this is another empty promise like the previous two.

The early Miller claim is a slight plus, just because it's a gambitty thing to do as scum right out of the block, but Nat. kind of went downhill from there.

Finally willing to vote for UROE but doesn't provide concrete reasons. He was much more willing to vote DH based on "how he claimed" but a Nat lynch took a long time with alot of indecisiveness.

If DGB is the busser, she initiated the day 3 suspicion on Nat and pushed for his lynch fairly hard, even creating that #7 trail to link to Nat. If Axel is the busser he is showing a hesitancy to investigate him. Both, however, believed that Nat looked bad early on but they easily sidetracked onto DH and Ani lynches first.

[Jahudo]

@DGB: Did you receive a role name for your acquired power?

I find it strange that the same role comes in two very different forms, especially when his power feels like he made it up based on all the flavour we have been given when determining the roles of others at death.

You have a point there. The flavor of opening a locker had been used on lynches to determine role and alignment:

"What am I going to do? They didn't find anythng in his locker - only a violin, bows, and sheets of music? I can't say that he's a bad kid! I can't say anything. What am I going to do?"

[Jahudo]

@DGB: Did you receive a role name for your acquired power?

I did. Thief.

Why would a rich girl need to be a thief? Check and mate.

Okay, maybe that's too much speculating. Here's some more:

Last night, I received the ability to pick the locks on student lockers. I rummaged through Axelrod's locker, and found a firearm, a bag of weed, $1000, a nudie calendar and no textbooks.

The thief claim holds up with using bolt cutters to break into people's lockers. I see that connection.

But you never officially said that your power confirmed Axelrod was scum. So does it? If not, it's flavor cop which could have a draw-back if Axel is pro-town but has an excuse for the gun and weed.

@Axel: can you confirm if you are a pro-town aligned drug-dealing card-carrying member of the NRA? (or something town that fits this locker description?)

[Jahudo]

However, the name of the Mafia seems to be "Druggie" so the weed is pretty damning.

I just realized that UROE wasn't a druggie by character name. His character was the fat kid. Now I understand the connection.

[Jahudo]

Jahudo, what do you think of GW?

I don't think Ruck would get a paranoid/insane power off playing the game well, so where would GW scum fit into Ruck and Axel scum with DGB town scenario?

[Jahudo]

I think some rereads discussing interaction with Natirasha are in order before the hammer vote is placed.

Sirdan, how are your reads coming along?

And the way we have to earn investigations over time, guarantees that we have no powers early on, but acquire them in end game.

You think we all started out as vanilla? Also, how do we know that you're not the insane one?

[Jahudo]

Mod: Can you prod sirdanilot?

[Jahudo]

They both suspected the miller claims but they took a long time to finally push a case on Nat. It looks like they were both hypocritical in pushing DH hard and opportunistically forgetting about the miller in favor of an animorph wagon.

[Jahudo]

One other point I would like to add. If I did have an insane cop scan like DGB would like to make us believe, then that would mean he is, in fact, town. He's been at L-1 for a while now and unless something stops the scum kill tonight, a mislynch ends the game. Where, then, is the opportunistic scum hammer to make all this happen?

Both scum would have to already be on the wagon. If you aren't insane and DGB is town, then you are scum. If DGB is town and sane, then Axel is town. If both those are true, then both scum are already on the wagon.

[Jahudo]

They both suspected the miller claims but they took a long time to finally push a case on Nat. It looks like they were both hypocritical in pushing DH hard and opportunistically forgetting about the miller in favor of an animorph wagon.

Who are you talking about here?

In post 487 I put a few quotes together that showed DGB and Axel disbelieving the miller claims but forgetting about Nat once DH flipped town, then rediscovering him day 3. They both seem fake to an extent.

And yeah, If DGB is town and sane then Axel is scum.

[Jahudo]

GW and Axel: Which answers are guesses?

[Jahudo]

11=C (GhostWriter)
12=B (Axelrod)

These two mostly.

[Jahudo]

11=C (GhostWriter)
12=B (Axelrod)

These two mostly.

I got my answer to #12 from Xtoxm. This was further "confirmed" by a trade with Nat. - for whatever that's worth.

It has also come to my attention that Xtoxm may have lied about some of his answers, despite being town. That's neither here nor there at this point.

Are you saying you have a different answer? If so, can you say where you got it from?

#11 and 12 are answers I started with. I also got a number #12 from Xtoxm night 1 and his answer was B too. I think some of his answers were wrong too.

[Jahudo]

you also said that the power was an item yet you failed to say what the item was. What was it?

A mirror.

So seeing as you started with those answers, can you confirm if they are right, and if not then what do you have?

I'll wait until GW gives an answer.

[Jahudo]

Was #11 a mistake or did you have an answer to that one?

[Jahudo]

Jahudo what is your answer 12?

D

I started the game knowing the answers to 9, 10, 11, and 12.

[Jahudo]

I still don't feel confidant with one lynch over the others since this is basically mylo and I don't know if we have anything to survive night.

Ghost, you are aware that submitting a wrong answer is a minus point, right?

Oops, I didn't know that either but it's right there in the rules. Each night Electra/I inserted answers to all 15 questions. I must've been lucky to get a power but now it makes sense that my power is a bottom rung of a series of powers.

Maybe Jahudo can tell me the answer to 11 as well so we have a 2 vs 1?

A

Then we have 12. Jahudo has another answer for this one than Axelrod. This means that either Jahudo/Electra is lying -> scum or, again, it's possible the answers you get at the start are wrong.

Axel already told us he got that answer from Xtoxm and Nat. I can confirm that Xtoxm used that answer for #12 because Electra/I cheated off X.

I know what X put down night 1 (answers to #2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 12 and 14) if Axel wants to compare but I believe he cheated/traded with X.

I was told that I could not cheat off of someone and use a power together. Did anyone else find that same thing out?

Yes, that's how it worked for me.

And I have a gut feeling that the test cannot be solved using preexisting myths.

[Jahudo]

DGB, you could not possibly have checked anyone with your ability, since you attempted to cheat off of me last night. Since I can place alerts on everyone, I caught you attempting to cheat off of me, thus canceling out your claim of using an ability last night. The only one lying is you.

I think that settles the dispute over whose claim we believe. Unless someone wants to discuss anything else, I'll hammer DGB.

[Jahudo]

The only flaw in my logic I can see myself is that mruck is an insane cop. There is little to nothing we can do to minimize the risk. We'll just have to take it I guess.

It feels unlikely because earned powers are supposed to reward the person for playing the game and gathering answers, right? I could see a person obtaining a negative role if they guessed too many wrong answers, but Master Ruck was aware of the point system so that's an unlikely way for him to have a negative power.

The rest of your logic looks right. DGB or GW has to be scum because you can't use a power and cheat on the same night, so either DGB didn't investigate Axel or GW didn't have his alert set off.

I think there's a possibility that DGB-scum could be trying to bus Axel when she gave her claim. Here is a theory I'm working on, feel free to tear it apart

Her reason for checking Axel sounded very empty. She said "no one stood out to her and that the mafia was doing a good job blending in", which goes against her post 415 where she wondered if Master Ruck and I were mutually bussing. Compiled with how I distracted the town with my misinterpretation of the game rules when we should have been pressuring Nat, there is no posted reason why DGB would investigate Axel over myself or Ruck.

Her forgetting to vote Axel in the same post she claimed, or the dozen or so posts after that, makes me think she wanted to distance from Axel enough to make him look town if she died.

If she tried to bus him and was successful then her power role would be the most valuable night kill target and questions might arise when she lived another day. But since Ruck claimed first and her wagon gained early momentum so she knew it was safer to distance Axel and let him kill Ruck tonight who would be the most valuable power role.

[Jahudo]

I'm gonna hammer in 12 hours unless someone needs more time or questions answered.

[Jahudo]

No, I think it's the best call for today. If DGB flips scum I'll bet she was distancing from Axel who did the best thing and bus right back.

[Jahudo]

Bah. Go town.

[Jahudo]

If DGB flips scum I'll bet she was distancing from Axel who did the best thing and bus right back.

I saw right through you DGB!, or maybe you weren't really trying to distance but just mess with people's heads like normal

I'm still not sure how all these game mechanics worked but it was fun. I like how night powers kept getting exponentially better each night. Maybe if you No Lynched another night you'd get the power: Mod tells you who is confirmed scum