Mini 734 - GrimMafia - OVER

[Beyond_Birthday]

Vote Zachrules

YOU SCREWED ME UP! HOW COULD YOU NOT BE SCUM IN THE GAME I MET YOU IN!!! YOU JERK!

...*everyone stares*

It's a legit reason.

*zer0ph34r whispers something under breath*

I HEARD THAT!!
*Takes zer0's wrist and slices them wide*

Prick. And no, that won't kill you. My eyes can tell me the when.

[Beyond_Birthday]

@Ecto: IF your vote wasn't random, then what was it?

Vote zer0ph34r

for not bleeding out.

[Beyond_Birthday]

"Bleeding out"? WTF does that even mean, Beyond_Birthday?

I cut your wrists in the pre voting game. How do you not pay attention?

@Ecto:...
That actually makes sense.

Unvote

Big fat meaningless FoS: Your post and vote seems unwarranted given that he has explained, rather logically, why he voted Zach.

[Beyond_Birthday]

EBWOP

"Bleeding out"? WTF does that even mean, Beyond_Birthday?

I cut your wrists in the pre voting game. How do you not pay attention?

@Ecto:...
That actually makes sense.

Unvote

Big fat meaningless FoS Spring: Your post and vote seems unwarranted given that he has explained, rather logically, why he voted Zach.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Oh, I see. And, Beyond_Birthday, I remember the wrist slitting, but is that some type of term I've never heard of or were you just trying to make me mad or what?

Read up on my name. I treat this game half like role playing. *Beyond_Birthday is a Serial Killer who knows the time of death of everyone except himself... does he commit the crimes himself or has fate condemned the victims to die no matter what?

Anyway:
Spring, your vote seems delayed or behind. Granted your later posts, it does not appear to be that way. So, I am suspicious of you.

[Beyond_Birthday]

After a rather good vote at the beginning, I am not liking your random vote on zwet, Ecto. I kind of expect better play.

Further, Zer0, stop being cute with your posts and actually contribute. There is plenty to comment on.

And Nuwen, why would you further explain and clarify a question if your question is answered? Do you have a reason to pursue it further that you are not giving?

Skillit, it is passed the RVS and you haven't explained why you are random voting. I understand voting arbitrarily in the event you missed the start of day and don't have time to read, but explaining that would have been far less suspicious. Just commentary, as I am sure this is the case.

[Beyond_Birthday]

How is my response questionable? I like thinking you're an evil wizard...

Ecto: Overreaction much?

Beyond-Birthday: You're trying to control the action and convince the world that you're the most involved by prodding people. I don't see any reason why we can't still post cute stuff.

This is no excuse, but when your current game is going 30 something pages on day friggin 2, you kind of want things to be up to the same pace every where. Sorry.

@Peraudua: Kind of a moot point. It isn't going to lead anywhere, in my opinion. Still, I don't see what the big deal is about rv late, as long as you clarify that it isn't serious and then make a hasty effort to catch up as to not leave things at random and unattended. That is my problem with the post, but again: moot point.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Anyway, this line in Sipylus's post is bugging me:

...in terms of wheat to chaff I'm off to a rocking start - along with JereIC, Nuwen, PerArdua and Zachrulez...

I don't understand how you're identifying these people. If it's for the large amount of wheat, then why aren't Beyond_Birthday or Springlullaby included? Why are you, since you said you didn't have any content posts?

Now, I am not familiar with the whole terminology of "wheat" in terms of chaff=useless matter, but are you saying that spring and I are posting worthless posts or useful? Just curious because I have no idea how to react to this or otherwise approach this conversation. (ie, your question and conversation resulting from ~)

Why, I think speedlynch on page two is the best that could happen to town, yes/no?

What is so detrimental about speedlynch?

I am sure scum would not folly by saying that a short day is good for town. (Short days are scum favorable by at least 70%.)

However, a speedlynch on day 1, page 2, could have a theoretical benefit via vote analysis.

Result of this thought train: I don't like the ambiguous interpretation of this post, and mildly raises my suspicions. It immediately read scum, but upon further thought, looks town. See, a scum player can manipulate the situation of a speed lynch pending on their position at the time (for, against, part of the wagon, etc.). Not much, maybe only 1% of a percentage point, still, slight increase in suspicion.

Note: Interestingly, zach, Pablo, and JereIC have all immediately discounted the theoretical. True, I agree, this is very suspicious, but just curious as to the amount of thought you three have placed in reacting. I must say that I feel Spring is trying to get as many reactions as possible from her posts at this point, but there is a strong possibility that she is scum.

Yes, suspicion is raised by 2-3%, discreditting my earlier assumption of only 1% increase.

Ecto's unvote strikes me as convenient. Hm... not scummy, just noting that it feels convenient. Who else posted...

Oh yes, Sis. Sis' assement of the posts does recount my earlier attack on Zer0 for his null posts. I like this. I also agree with his general assessment. However, I need my above question to JereIC answered in order to actually follow where the conversation will head.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Questions addressed at the populace in general, requesting replies:

How many players do you think are not aware of the fact that a reasonable amount of discussion per day is propitious to town?

So far, I think four have already discounted your speedlynch question. I personally said that short days favor scum, indicating that the opposite is true for town. I am not everyone else, and thus, I have no idea how many people in this game would think a short day is protown.

How scummy would a speedlynch in a normal setup be?

Given 7 people necessary to lynch, it would be about 3/7 scummy, or less. As a result, the behavior of generating and following through with a speedlynch is about 4/7 anti town, but not scummy. In none mathematical thought, however, the idea of a speedlynch would be fairly scummy. (This, however, changes as day goes on. Sometimes a speedlynch is resulted from obvious scum later on. Early in a game, a miscue by a player is usually venial.)

How is scummy activity not good news?

It makes for finding scum easier. However, a townie who acts scummy give scum a cover. It depends on the actual alignment of the player who is participating in what town would consider to be "scummy behavior."

Are you truly unfamiliar with this line of argument?

The style or argument? No. This exact line, yes. Your general questions seem to be leading into game theory and don't seem to be an obvious help to town. However, I will trust your play for the moment, and review it when it yields (or fails to yields, as the case may be) results.

[Beyond_Birthday]

JereIC, wanna answer my questions?

Not really. Those questions are a distraction from what we should be discussing - who's scum or not. But, briefly:

How many players do you think are not aware of the fact that a reasonable amount of discussion per day is propitious to town?

Not many.

How scummy would a speedlynch in a normal setup be?

Not very. The speedlynches I've seen always depend more on townies being reckless rather than scum instigating it.

How is scummy activity not good news?

Scummy activity is good news - but as I said, speedlynches are more about recklessness than scumminess, so speedlynches aren't good news.

Are you truly unfamiliar with this line of argument?

I am familiar with it. From my experience, it's not a very good line of argument.

Now, briefly, can you tell me why you want to discuss speedlynches?

I don't particularly want to discuss speedlynch, I just want to see how people respond to the questions.

But what has motivated me to ask in the first place is my not liking your unvote of me and your subsequent reply when I called you on it.

As I see it, there was in reality very low danger of my getting speedlynched on page 2. And I think that had it happened, it would have been a pretty good thing because, in the specific frame of this game, I was not nearly scummy enough to warrant a lynch at the time of your unvote.

This make me think that your justification of your unvote, namely wanting to avoid a speedlynch, is pretty bunk. And kinda the worse possible answer you could have found in a sea of possibility.

Admittedly, your questions to the populace worked for me. I like this results as, while failing to conclude someone is scum, it has brought out good conversation with a pretty strong reference. Kudos.

At Ecto: I don't quite get what your point is either. At first, I thought you were trying to demonstrate a contradiction of some sort, so you may need to break it down or make it more obvious.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Active Lurking can be defined as participating in a game by being irrelevant or being a distraction or detriment to conversation. Some people do it no matter what, but that kind of behavior is positively annoying.

It is a prime example being antitown, which is, sadly, not necessarily an indication of scumminess.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I think that I have already categorized Zer0 into the useless column until he does something scummy so I can shift him somewhere else. Honestly, I probably missed your point because I assumed you were pointing out something else.

Put simply: I wasn't thinking that your quotes would indicate anything close to your actual point, sorry to waste your time for being stupid.

[Beyond_Birthday]

That is, as far as page 6 cases go, very strong Zach. *Zach loses percentages points.*

Additionally, I have to agree that Zero has been claiming some sort of question has been asked, but no such question has been manifested nor has zero clarified on what the question is or, more importantly, where it is.

I am thinking, however, that Zero doesn't necessarily connect to Spring... Yes, Spring has garnered a bit of notable suspicion, however, Zero, probably unwittingly but he may have planned this, seems to show a bit distancing in voting Spring and leaving it there for an extended period of time. It is both subtle and a strangely strong move to demonstrate that, by vote analysis, he was voting scum. (This statement assumes that both Spring and Zero are scum together, and I present this so the reader is capable of following my understanding on the possibility of Zero+Spring scum.)

I could be underestimating Zero (or Spring if scum had time to talk pre game) but by demonstrated play, I don't believe Zero would think to keep his vote on Spring for the purpose of late game distancing (on the assumption that Spring would be lynched before him. This would also work if Spring lived to late game.)

In either case, I do agree that Zero has been unhelpful and arguably scummy. Since my vote isn't on anybody and this would put Zero at L-4-5 (I'm not sure), I am comfortable voting him given the case by Zach. (Best so far, which I can conclude could work with my theory on Spring, who will need further investigation for me to clear her off strange play. [Spring, your gambit does work for me, but your early play leaves a bit to be desired. However, you are still in the gray and more helpful than Zero's active lurking.])

Vote Zer0ph34r

[Beyond_Birthday]

Beyond_Birthday and PerArdua, you can't honestly think a scoring system or 'points' or any rubbish like that will actually work… do you?

First of all acknowledging that the "7for7" idea is a logical fallacy, I haven't lost with it yet. (Of course, I would say I am probably far more objective than most people, and how can you possibly have an objective rating system without numbers?)

Further: Yes... Yes, I do. I realize that this may be the game to beat me, but I feel that this is the best way for me to play and approach the game. Just need to remember that sometimes, numbers lie. (Too townie is a logical fallacy, but not too scummy isn't.)

[Beyond_Birthday]

Beyond, you think I planned Spring to be suspicious? How would I do that?

First: It is a stretch. I suppose I have failed to explain my way of posting in this game.

In all of my post, you get my full thought process up that point. This is a result of not using any notes at all. Additionally, it is easier to follow up on previous thoughts by being able to look at exactly what I thought at point X. (Versus a page full of notes, and using time tables, whatever.)

As for the stretch: It is a note on my exceptionally complex formula to come up with your percent of being scum. These numbers, for everyone, is always unusually HIGH. The reason for this is because I take every possible motivation and scale it, posting the more interesting ones for later reference. If a series of "stretches" forms a pattern, it is worth noting. If it is not followed by a matching occurrence (ie, scum/town flip, or another stretch theory that matches the same MO or works with it to increase probability) it works together to generate a case.

As for my vote: I see no issue in voting people. While, yes, I would be okay with a Zero lynched, I am more concerned with his reaction under pressure. (Saying a vote is a pressure vote instantly nullifies the pressure. In mind of the accused, pressure vote=/=intent to lynch and thus loses pressure.)

I will return to you later.

I'm not liking Beyond_Birthday either, I think his post sounds very self-conscientious.

I don't notice it, but upon reread, you may have a point. I accept this as legitimate criticism.

Back to Zer0 now:

Alright, two things;

1: I will consider changing my vote since people obviously have a problem with me casting a random vote.

2: Everyone keeps saying that I just keep posting useless info as a way to look like I am being helpful. I'm not! I just find it odd that NO ONE has yet to answer my damn question, they just keep saying that I'm posting useless info, and maybe it is, but why can't ANYONE answer it?! 1 Person just answer and it will be done with!

This is called wasting my time. Repeat the damn question. I am not going to go look for it, and if what Ecto said is true (next post), then your entire point two is null. And as for the random vote, let me explain this to you:
The townie's (town aligned's) job is NOT to look protown or not look scummy or avoid making controversial arguments. The town's job is to be USEFUL. To HELP in finding scum. Having everyone look for this ghost question and to post generic, unrelated, or otherwise pointless posts. THIS is the primary reason people might vote you. (Though, other reasons have been given.)

I have asked and re-asked it many times. WHAT INFO CAN WE GO ON TO LYNCH SOMEONE [at the time].

Ecto, I will not get replaced because all mafia games are like this, I just always have to say the same exact thing and people find me scummy or suspicious or whatever for it.

And I do have opinions of people, Sipylus, just no real reason to lynch anyone.

We, at that point, do not lynch people for being scummy. You basically vote people for being stupid. (ie, lacking logic.) When someone votes for person A (the stupid) with crappy reasoning/no reasoning, someone will attack this person B. With the discussion of person A and Person B, either:

Someone will look scummy by going out of their way to protect person A or B.

Someone else will look scummy.

Sides are formed and person A or B is lynched, giving info for day 2, or etc.

Your posts at that point seem to avoid this trend, which is a scummy (albeit, weak supported to prove) tactic. (Avoiding pulling to a side/avoiding to attack or defend a player/other similar basis.) On day 1, however, this looks very scummy because there are no revealed/confirmed alignments, which prevents us, the town, from making stronger and more definite arguments. (Note, if players play poorly or just happen to follow the wrong guy, then day 2 could be a mislynch. Since no mafia game (I should think) would end on day 3, however, the odds of lynching scum are high. Additionally, the same tactics used on day 1 apply, just with more to go on.

How the hell did you get through your first games here, then?

They do not filter out bad player, Pablo. They just instruct, which may or may not be ignored by the amateurs.

[Beyond_Birthday]

BB, in #121 and #123, you classified zero's actions as anti-town, but not scummy. What exactly caused you to change to a vote in #127, after reading zach's case?

Zach pointed out (and led to the thought process of ~) Scum wouldn't try and validate their votes or would do so using specious if not untrue reasoning. Hence, I decided he was scummy enough to warrant my vote. Additionally, it is only a matter of time before an overload of scumminess reaches a high enough percentage that I vote him. So his two posts between them don't help his case. I also assumed that, given my vote, would cause pressure and lead to, hopefully, a defense or more active play. However, this failed, which gives post event reasons for my vote, validating it to remain on Zero.


"I can see your point, but the thing is that I can also see scum trying to dismiss all the content thus far, as Zero has done, in order to avoid being forced to contribute and potentially reveal scumlinks. Then, when the player gets called out for this behavior, they get flustered and start bumbling, as zero seems to be doing. And then, when they can't seem to get the suspicion to stop, just slip off the radar and hope that suspicion goes away, at least for a while. Also, what do you think about the Meta difference? "
~Wolfblitzer

Agreed.

Sorry that i have been such a tool, this legislative session is particularly crazy with the budget and everything and ive just been comin up short on time, be back with a presence on saturday

I beg your pardon, but "legislation?" Are you in congress or is this supposed to indicate something else?

[Beyond_Birthday]

Sorry for my absence, but damn. People sure did seem to talk about me a lot. Apparently it seems I am the first to go. (For the third time now.) People obviously don't like my playing style, but I don't care. People keep lynching me, they are one step closer to losing.

I claim to be a Townie. Not that it matters because none of you will believe me, anyway. But you asked. I have "thunked" about it and decided to change my vote.

Unvote. Vote: zwetschenwasser

People want a reason for my vote? Okay, how about the mere fact that I don't like this guy for making people hate me.

Everyone seems to find my scummy or at the very least suspicious. Every game I have been in so far, my fellow players have made the same mistake; lynching me; a Townie, on day 1. If you guys wanna be the third group of fools to do it, by all means, go right ahead. People may not LIKE my methods of playing, but too bad, I'm not changing it because I LOOK scummy, because so far, I never have been scum. Have any of you thought to yourselves, "Well, he's acting like he did in his other games, so maybe when he acts differently, he's scum?" If not, do so.

Maybe I am a bit cold to this, but pleas to emotion are always null in my numbers. My vote remains. Also, the townie claim means that, if he isn't scum, it isn't a danger of hitting a power role. Still...

No, can't do it. I am trying to see this coming from ONLY townie or scum, but I can't really figure either one to me likely to do it. Frustrated townie and amateur scum (both categories in which I would place him) seem obvious. However...

I had rather there not be a hammer until we get some more opinions, but as I said, I don't buy pleas to emotion. I am leaving my vote where it is.

[Beyond_Birthday]

[Insert long and intelligent analysis here]

Brilliant. If Zero is scum, you are the obvious scum partner. Therefore, Zero is not scum, and you are scum. (This is tongue in cheek, do not take seriously. But seriously, bravo, and I agree with your logic.)

Unvote

Now, moving on to the next point:

Actually, your initial play and the questions relating to them, Spring, are a bit scummy in my book. Your questions have offered you a bit of defense, but JereIC, I feel, has a better point in your unwillingness to lynch him. It could either be:

A) you do not want to lynch a townie.

OR

B) You do not want to lynch a scum partner. However, this is severely lacking. I think if you were both scum, then you would rather bus him off, by your current logic.

As a result, I am working off of Zero is stupid townie (this and Nuwen's argument), and as a result, I think that your defense "[JereIC's] argument would apply if Zero is scum" is false. I think that

Vote Springlullaby

is a better place for my vote.

(As for Ecto, I don't think his aggression was scummy, so I agree with you to that end, Nuwen.)

[Beyond_Birthday]

Spring has allowed a certain amount of chaos then cleared it up later in an out-of-the-box revelation. However, one might view that Spring's primary motivation for this would be to make opinions and votes while keeping a real intention and suspicion from actually being seen. In a way, she is under the radar while being perfectly active.

As JereIC points out, Spring is attempting to hold off the lynch for Zero despite being all for the lycnh. Why? For favoritism of more discussion. However, this reason doesn't hold any water. While I now disaagree with a Zero lynch due to Nuwen's post, I think that allowing him to be lynched would have revealed more and led to better discussion day 2 for more accurate hunting. So, concluding that likely: Zer0 is town aligned; then I can logically percieve the idea that Spring, as scum, did not want to be associated with the lynching vote.

Sorry if this wasn't clear, as I posted in a very weary state...

[Beyond_Birthday]

Nuwen: I actually think that Zero's meta can be somewhat useful
Spring: Stop contradicting yourself, and what does Skillit have to do with anything?
Zach: Answer the damn question. You're just making yourself look like a question dodger.

Nuwen's flowery post is clearly just a "he's a noob" assertion (another reason why I hate reads and prefer concise arguments). I dislike BB's quick agreement with the "flawless logic". It seems like an attempt to distance yourself from Zero's lynch. Spring, you were almost nonexistent at the beginning of the game, and now you're trying to distance yourself from a Zero lynch. It seems that since everyone is assuming that scum will bus their scum buddies to death, you can fly under the radar by supporting him instead. Nuwen, your latest post is flawed, for the reason outlined in my last sentence. Zach: see above. You're dodging questions with BS reasons.

The ones in question, from towniest to scummiest:

BB
Nuwen
Spring
Zach

It isn't quite mere distancing, would it? I unvoted him, you know. I have two scum picks today, and they are Zero and Spring. Zero's fallen through, and while some may disagree, I think that her logic makes sense. However, I think most will agree that Spring looks very scummy, so while Zero doesn't get a free pass for the game, I do think that looking at him later is better at the moment. See how he comes up.

BB, just making sure I understand your argument: Spring is scummy because she tried to stop Zero's lynch. She did this, even though he's a townie, because she knew that his lynch would make evidence against other scum. Am I missing or messing up anything? Also, what in particular in Nuwen's post convinced you?

No, you got it down for the most part. A few other points were in there, but that is some of your argument, and his attack on you. I felt you were sensible, and Spring was irrational. Since scum must fabricate facts...*vote Spring*

I am one of (I think) one votes on Spring, but her reactions already bother me, so my vote remains for the moment. (Also, I would reason that scum would find that not lynching quickly on an easy and convincing wagon is better to scum in the long one than the temporary +1 from lynching a townie. )

@Ecto: I think that using an assumption makes for pressure votes (which is what my vote on Spring is, just gussied up. *yes, I think it served its purpose, but will remain for a bit more*)

Unfortunately, I get to see Zero's post...
Maybe... and I am being easily swayed between pretty arguments and stupid posts, Zero and Nuwen are scum together and Nuwen is desperate to save him... *slams head on desk* I'm going to have to reread, I just know it...

*Grabs Zero's wrist* STOP MAKING THIS DIFFICULT!!! *Beats his arm to the point the bones break.*

As a side note, I like's Zach's recent posts... and I will have to reread...

*Sighs* I hate rereading...

I will leave my vote on Spring until I see a reason to affirm it or switch it back.

*Makes a cup of sugar cubes, adding a little coffee to make a nice, black molasses.*

[Beyond_Birthday]

Spring has allowed a certain amount of chaos then cleared it up later in an out-of-the-box revelation. However, one might view that Spring's primary motivation for this would be to make opinions and votes while keeping a real intention and suspicion from actually being seen. In a way, she is under the radar while being perfectly active.

As JereIC points out, Spring is attempting to hold off the lynch for Zero despite being all for the lycnh. Why? For favoritism of more discussion. However, this reason doesn't hold any water. While I now disaagree with a Zero lynch due to Nuwen's post, I think that allowing him to be lynched would have revealed more and led to better discussion day 2 for more accurate hunting. So, concluding that likely: Zer0 is town aligned; then I can logically percieve the idea that Spring, as scum, did not want to be associated with the lynching vote.

Sorry if this wasn't clear, as I posted in a very weary state...

1. This is a bad circular argument. 2. Here you propose to justify your vote on by an assumption of Zero's alignment, which you again propose 3. to justify based on conjucture as to the motivation of my actions coming from scum.

Numbers are mine:
1. Oh? I was completely unaware.
2. I justify my vote on the basis that you didn't want to lynch Zero, regardless of his alignment, solely on the basis of discussing more today. Well, you proposed the argument that a speedlynch is good for town as it provides a ton of information. However, a regular lynch with decent discussion must be the iceberg to sink us! What was so important it couldn't have waited? The only person who has any right in claiming that their lack of a hammer vote on Zero are people who DID NOT think he was scummy. (I am pretty sure that is Nuwen, and that's about it.)
3. Of course my vote is based on the conjecture that you're scum. If you were not scum, I wouldn't vote you.

I also don't like your first paragraph, 1.it is in my opinion saying very much of nothing. 2. Tell me, don't you think that "one might view that Spring's primary motivation for this would be to make opinions and votes while keeping a real intention and suspicion from actually being seen." can be said about anyone a propos anything?

1. I am not saying anything. I am saying that you are trying to offer opinion and lead town to your way of thinking while at the same time appearing as someone who has played little part in the actual decisions of town.
2. No, the motivation of a player, particularly the town aligned, should be self evident. I [we the town] are not here for personal preservation, but are here to play to the best of our ability to scumhunt and demonstrate a useful opinion so that if/when we die, the remaining town can make a more educated guess on who is scum and better trust/distrust arguments offered by the deceased players. Does this mean look scummy and throw our lives away? No. But is does mean that scum hunt>looking protown.

In addition, after rereading a bit, I think you have been strawmanning JereIC (or at least, been excessive in forcing him to explain himself.) Either you are setting him up, or you are scum with him.

I dunno, might be reading too far into JereIC there, but it doesn't help make you look any better.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I have reread the entire game. These are my notes from the reread. I may (this is accidental) have repeated myself a few times. I am sorry. This is also a warning, this post is 7 pages long. Enjoy. (And after reread, I feel a need to apologize for my piss poor play all game.))

Zer0ph34r-Most anti-town and least helpful. Not sure how scummy.
Skillit -Here - I have no read.
Zachrulez - Slightly town
Sipylus-I have no read.
springlullaby - I feel obligated to apologize. Spring looks very town upon reread, and I have no idea where my minor suspicions were coming from.
zwetschenwasser -I am feeling he is scummy. Might make a case later in post.
Ectomancer - Mostly town.
Wolfblitzer -Per seemed pretty unreadable. However, Wolf looks VERY town.
JereIC
Pablo Molinero - No read yet.
Nuwen-If Zero is scum, I feel Nuwen could be scum partner.
Beyond_Birthday -Very strong up till page 5, and I have no idea what happened then.

Notes: I don’t think Zero and Spring connect in any fashion. Also, I voted Zero because he reached a point where it felt like scum just trying to act stupid so that a town aligned person, rather than mafia, would pull the amateur card. (Quite frankly, I am left unconvinced of the whole thing, and I don’t find an appeal to emotion to be telling of noob town. I think it is a better characteristic of a novice in general.)

When posting my number theory, I was still under the impression that Spring looked scummy. Upon reread, this doesn’t hold true. (A reread in some games is proving to be really good. Especially in one, like this, that looks really convoluted.)
In post 132, Zero asks how he planned for Spring to be suspicious. I really don’t think he did, per se, but I do know that I walked right into reading too far into it.
@Zwet:

I did ask you a freaking question and you're just voting for me because you don't like me, not because you think I'm scum.

Actually, at this point, you have to admit that Zero is just not reading anymore. Ecto posted FOUR POSTS before this that Zero asked a question to sip, NOT Zwet, but instead of correcting himself by this point, he is continuing to reiterate the same thing.

Also, while I feel that Spring is town (and I strongly disagree with this sentiment on me in the following post), I would like to note that it wasn’t until

@ Ectomancer: I see now. I was thrown off by you saying 'I think you missed etc.', kinda unusual to see people interpreting other people to such a degree.

I'm still not liking JereIC, has actually contributed nothing now that the game is under way bar from a vague question about what I think of Zero. I'm not liking Beyond_Birthday either, I think his post sounds very self-conscientious. I'm kind ambivalent concerning Zero, could be awkward town or awkward scum at this point.

So Zero, what do you think of the game so far?

That anyone commented that they felt that I have said, essentially nothing. As a result, I am more suspicious of EVERYONE who failed, before this post, to argue against others, for example, Zwet, to acknowledge this “fact” and then said that it was true. Zwet, I use as an example, who said that I gave reasons for my post. I would use Per for saying I have 6 content post out of 6 (at the time he made that list), however, she isn’t around. I am pretty wary of these people right now.

(Also, Spring. I am cautious if only for at the time, I didn’t really get what was going on in this game too much due to a lack of attention. In hindsight, I was a bit of an idiot, and I think I made several miscues. One was, and this is NOT for appeasement, my suspicion of you. As a note:

Unvote

)

In the midst of rereading, I found this:

I'm sorry to hear that, PerArdua.

My top suspects right now are Zero and spring. As other people have mentioned, Zero hasn't contributed much but posted to appear like he was. His insistence that his question may be a distraction tactic too - let's talk about what there is to talk about, not who's scum or not.

Spring really hasn't contributed much either. I'm beginning to think that she was trying to speedlynch Ectomancer with her "random" vote, and originally thought up the whole "speedlynches are good for town" argument to try to explain that. When the bandwagon swung around to her, she used it instead to try to knock us off-topic. On the other hand, she's right about Beyond_Birthday's posts - their tone is self-conscious, like he's constantly evaluating his own behavior.

By my counting, this is the fifth vote on Zero. I think he's scum, and I think we're going to be able to use the fact that he's scum to implicate other players.

Vote: Zer0ph34r

Alright, just a question, let’s suppose that Zero IS scum. At this point (on page 11/12, where we are now), who would his mafianess implicate? Myself, Spring, or Nuwen? (Only included because she is the primary defense for Zero at the moment.) Or someone else entirely? What if Zero flips town? Any leads then?

I'm sorry to hear that, PerArdua.

My top suspects right now are Zero and spring. As other people have mentioned, Zero hasn't contributed much but posted to appear like he was. His insistence that his question may be a distraction tactic too - let's talk about what there is to talk about, not who's scum or not.

Spring really hasn't contributed much either.

I'm beginning to think that she was trying to speedlynch Ectomancer with her "random" vote, and originally thought up the whole "speedlynches are good for town" argument to try to explain that. When the bandwagon swung around to her, she used it instead to try to knock us off-topic. On the other hand, she's right about Beyond_Birthday's posts - their tone is self-conscious, like he's constantly evaluating his own behavior.

By my counting, this is the fifth vote on Zero. I think he's scum, and I think we're going to be able to use the fact that he's scum to implicate other players.

Vote: Zer0ph34r

BTW, part in bold is a really crappy argument.

Spring: This has been bugging me: Why is the part about me, which you mentioned first, bolded as part of the “really crappy argument?”


Note: I love Wolfblitzer at the moment. His intro posts were really protown. Plus, in hindsight, I feel that Zero’s anti town behavior and the meta (which I finally stopped being lazy and actually read) indicates that Zero isn’t such an amateur that he deserves a by for playing this badly. I am nullifying my opinion on agreeing with Nuwen’s argument. I think I just liked the pretty words...
O.o

JereIC's #138 in regards to Spring feels like craplogic IMO. What makes you believe that spring was attempting to speedlynch Ecto? And what makes you think the "quicklynches are good for the town" piece was created ahead of time?

It's not really deductive logic, and I apologize for not making that clearer. I'm making up lots of theories when I read what other folks have to say and seeing which ones help explain their behavior. In this case, I thought it was odd that Spring had a argument about how speedlynches are good for town, and it occurred to me that she had been third on a wagon against Ectomancer, so maybe she had thought up the theory when she was on that wagon to try to get herself out of trouble afterward.

JereIC has hit a nerve with a few people, but looking at his most recent posts, something stood out: he says that using Zero as scum, "I think we'll be able to use that to implicate other players as scum" (or something like that). It's full of confidence, but if he's wrong, we'll have nothing to go off of to make said implications. Now, unless he's bussing on day one to set up lynches later (seems very unlikely), it dosen't seem to me that scum would make that assumption. ...did that make sense to anyone?

Honestly, the only person I think he can implicate now is Spring. Mostly thinking of how he voted for her at the random stage, how she hasn't found him acting weird, and how she seems to be helping him out now. If he's scum, I think all that indicates she's scum too. If not, she still may be scum, but we can have a lot more fruitful day tomorrow.

I don’t like what you are suggesting here, which is that Spring IS scum if he is and might be if he isn’t. Mostly because you are insinuating guilt no matter which way he falls, which should be self evident. Saying this seems to serve the sole purpose of setting Spring up for tomorrow...

Upon rereading Nuwen’s post, I have decided that it sums up to this: (as Ecto said in 186), “too scummy to be scum defense,” which appears to be used to modify an existing newbie defense.

After rereading my own, and others, attacks on Zero, I feel as though we, the town, have been trying to get him to participate all day. Zero has constantly and blatantly refused to apply or acknowledge the help and assistance we have given him. Furthermore, there are several points in this game where I, at the very least, feel he has just not read the full extent of people’s posts and has been all around unhelpful where as the town Zero, which Wolfblitzer has pointed out, has at least attempted to scum hunt, if not poorly. This entire play by Zero has become the epitome of useless and antitown play. I don’t know how else to put it, but Zero seems to not be a helpless individual who is unable to scum hunt, but one who is actively avoiding it all together.

Vote Zerophear

To pull a spring:
Your evaluation of Zero’s play thus far. Can you manage to see a town with Zero’s experience acting this way?
This is in response to the Spring and jere back and fourth, which tells me very little of Jere.or Spring in my reread.

Also note:

I'm not getting why you are voting me Beyond, please explain better.

I was stupid? Quite frankly, the only odd thing about you is that I don’t see much of you on Zero, so would you like to clarify by answering my above questions, that would be fantastic.

[Insert long and intelligent analysis here]

Brilliant. If Zero is scum, you are the obvious scum partner. Therefore, Zero is not scum, and you are scum. (This is tongue in cheek, do not take seriously. But seriously, bravo, and I agree with your logic.)

This is precisely why I think he's just an inexperienced townie - prior to my post, there was no attempt by Zero's hypothetical scumbuddy to redirect the wagon. While I realize that my post could be interpreted as the aforementioned redirect,

I

know that it isn't, and that constant allows me to poke and prod for reactions.

Remember

: The only thing a townie knows for certain on day 1 is that he or she is a townie.

I need to reread the thread again and closeread Sping/Jere's exchanges before commenting.

Maybe Jere is mafia, but as I just said above, I can't see Zero as town-amateur. I can't. I like your analysis. It makes sense as I read it, but I still see Zero as scum upon my reread. Sorry.
However, I still agree with your assessment of Ecto, but I don’t think his aggressiveness is scummy. I just find it to be someone anxious to play, which is null in my book.

Side note:

2. I already explained why his points are scummy.

2. Well that's great. Would you care to point out the exact posts or quotes, or do you want me to struggle to look through and find these explanations, so that when I fumble with trying to find them, you can find me scummy too?

2. Yes, I expect you to struggle and find them, it's your job. I will tell you if I think you to be scummy when you have done so.

Spring, I find your unwillingness to repeat your counterargument (or at least point out which posts) to be very antitown and unhelpful.

BB, just making sure I understand your argument: Spring is scummy because she tried to stop Zero's lynch. She did this, even though he's a townie, because she knew that his lynch would make evidence against other scum. Am I missing or messing up anything? Also, what in particular in Nuwen's post convinced you?

Mostly that it made me realize that a plea to emotion *can* come from a townie. I think other's suggested it, but none caught my attention.

This is actually simpler than your argument, but since I no longer feel Spring is scum, upon a reread, I have to admit that I disagree with your argument. However, I still feel Spring’s refusal to point out her counter points against you, Jere, is annoying and unhelpful...
(That is my only problem with her at the moment.)

Post 249 response:
I’m an idiot, and I felt, when reading their arguments and rereading from about page 7 that they made a bit more sense. Rereading from the start, I slowly realized you have some reasoning behind your play that is self apparent, and I am getting town vibes from you. As a side note, I also get the point Zach was claiming, but still wonder about your attack on JereIC, in the sense, that I agree with your statements on reread. Zach is similar to Jere only Zach makes a hell of a lot of sense by contrast.

MaHeroWhatever: You first say that I'm not posting content, and then you say all I'm doing is gloating over Zero? I firmly believe that Zero is bluffing through his emotional appeal, and that Nuwen and You are doing nothing but repeating the same one-liner argument that I don't think applies here. You call the meta thing a card, but it makes sense to me that a player would be more emotional in a game where he's scum than in a game that he's not. Zero's last post was, indeed, exactly what he wrote in the last sentence. I don't enjoy MF's disregard for all my points of accusation and dismissal of them as not containing content and acting purely scummy.

You know, all game, I thought you were really scummy Zwet. Until this post. Essentially: QFT

First off, I was hoping to wait for Nuwen’s response to my question about his speedlynch argument, but it’s not necessary now as I’m not that suspicious of him anymore.

Anyway, BB’s arguments against Spring are craplogic. The main thing is his justification for his vote on Spring. In post 241, he says his argument is that she delayed Zero’s lynch, and assumes that Zero is a townie. Delaying a lynch of a townie is not particularly scummy imho. I really don’t see scum trying to delay any lynch except that of their buddies. As MaFoHero said about zwet’s 184, the real scum tell is when they stay on the lynch and gloat when it’s close to succeeding. But what really bugs me is that this argument works just as well against the other people who posted but didn’t vote for Zero. It could even work for BB and me, as we’ve jumped the bandwagon – that’s going to stop the bandwagon a lot better than just posting. Without any reason to distinguish Spring from the rest of us, his argument doesn’t hold any water.

Add to that the self-consciousness that Spring and MaFoHero pointed out and his early support of the Zero bandwagon, and I’m willing to vote for him.

Vote: Beyond_Birthday

I’m not up for a Zwet lynch yet, but I also haven’t read all of his posts that closely. I’ll try to do that tonight and post something in the morning.

I am not going to deny they were craplogic. It was, almost, crap logic. However, I have found that Spring is (I think) the player who is most likely to be town aligned. I have completely misread her play in this game... I really have.

As I said before, a lot of people are assuming a lot things in this game. I believe Birthday is trying to say that Spring is aware that Zero is town and is slowing down the wagon in order to appear town if Zero flips town. Hate it because #1 - It assumes the alignment of one player based upon another player with no effort towards confirming the alignment of said player. #2 - It ignores the ability of a town member to actually make a good judgment call based upon the action in the game. #3 - There are a few players this logic could be applied towards.
That being said, I've seen worse tangles of logic.

As far as self-consciousness goes, I've seen it a lot in newbie games, somewhat less in Mini's with the more experienced players. It eventually wears off. The question is whether it should have already worn off of Birthday. 6 months is a long time even if this is his first Mafia game experience.

#1-3 is pretty much all the points I have made in my crappy play over the past five pages.

First of all, I am not selfconcious in my posts. Maybe I come off that way, but I'm actually not... In fact, as I mentioned before in this post, I don't even preview them. But, whatever, I don't care about that. Perceive my posts as self-evaluating if you want, it doesn't matter in the long run. And speaking of long runs...

IT FINALLY F*CKING OVER!!

[Beyond_Birthday]

Actually more like: Wow, I have played horribly sense page 5, here is some better commentary.
*Not a promise, but an actual attempt at playing better. This game=terribly played*

[Beyond_Birthday]

You start your post by calling me scummy, and change your mind over the course of your post to "I thought you were scummy, but now I don't so much." Please explain your contradiction. Ecto, do you need any more answers from me, or is there some other reason why you're voting for me?

First off, my last post since**

Anyway, Zwet:

I did this initially as a pbpa until about post 75, where I then realized my thoughts about a few players, most notably Spring, were wrong. At that point, and early on, I thought that you were scum. However, at the point I read some post by yours (I think I quote it), I got major town vibes from you. Maybe it is your play style that threw me off initially, I dunno. Point is that by the time I

finished

the complete reread, you looked town.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Only a couple of points about BB's post I want to ask about so far. I should be able to read it more in-depth tomorrow.

Also, while I feel that Spring is town (and I strongly disagree with this sentiment on me in the following post), I would like to note that it wasn’t until

@ Ectomancer: I see now. I was thrown off by you saying 'I think you missed etc.', kinda unusual to see people interpreting other people to such a degree.

I'm still not liking JereIC, has actually contributed nothing now that the game is under way bar from a vague question about what I think of Zero. I'm not liking Beyond_Birthday either, I think his post sounds very self-conscientious. I'm kind ambivalent concerning Zero, could be awkward town or awkward scum at this point.

So Zero, what do you think of the game so far?

That anyone commented that they felt that I have said, essentially nothing. As a result, I am more suspicious of EVERYONE who failed, before this post, to argue against others, for example, Zwet, to acknowledge this “fact” and then said that it was true. Zwet, I use as an example, who said that I gave reasons for my post. I would use Per for saying I have 6 content post out of 6 (at the time he made that list), however, she isn’t around. I am pretty wary of these people right now.

I cannot make heads or tails of this paragraph. It's like a couple of important verbs are missing or something.

Well, I believe that someone who replaced in and someone else mentioned that my posts were self conscious. I am far too lazy to recall who, because it isn't all that important until later (should I make it to a "later" day). It isn't at you, but I really can't explain it any better unless I look up a specific case, but I am too lazy to do that right now.

Alright, just a question, let’s suppose that Zero IS scum. At this point (on page 11/12, where we are now), who would his mafianess implicate? Myself, Spring, or Nuwen? (Only included because she is the primary defense for Zero at the moment.) Or someone else entirely? What if Zero flips town? Any leads then?

I stand by my basic argument - if Zero is scum, then it's very likely Spring is too. The case against her alone is fairly weak though, and I don't I could vote for her today based on the evidence so far.

Also, I support the arguments against him and the weakness of his defense (and the defense of others on his behalf), and would argue it's more likely than not that he's scum. The only reason I'm voting for you and not him now is because your vote for Spring was incredibly scummy.

If Zero gets lynched and is town, Zwet looks more suspect for his early participation in the bandwagon.

You answered my question. YAY!

I don’t like what you are suggesting here, which is that Spring IS scum if he is and might be if he isn’t. Mostly because you are insinuating guilt no matter which way he falls, which should be self evident. Saying this seems to serve the sole purpose of setting Spring up for tomorrow...

I don't follow what you don't like about this. As you said, it's self-evident that everyone might be scum until they are proven otherwise (cop, death, etc.). The case against her would be weak if Zero was town, and she wouldn't be my first choice to vote for on Day 2, but she still might be scum. All I was doing was stating the obvious.

Yes, but it just reads as scummy to me. Not a big deal, just a notice in case you start to look scummy later. (Although, in isolation, the post seems scummy because it appears that you offer a person no out.) Further, it doesn't read as "Well, you wouldn't be confirmed, so you could still be scummy." Though, I see your point and that it is possible you intended your statement to mean this.

Thanks? I guess? Ecto, sorry I didn't notice.

BB, I just don't understand why, even though you're saying that I'm town, you put that I looked scummy in your overview of players that is typically supposed to be a resume of the points you're quoting below. Did you not notice you contradicted yourself?

It isn't contradiction per se; I am attempting to show that while, at first (as others have said), you come off as scummy, you do eventually look town aligned.

*IS Ignoring the nothing post ^*

[Beyond_Birthday]

Sorry Zwet, talking about Zero's before yours Kinda simultaneous posting I suppose.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Wait...wait....
My brain hurts...Zero, what the hell are you saying?

[Beyond_Birthday]

Zero:

First of all:

Why do you keep saying you'll be of more help tomorrow? Why can you not help now? Are you going to offer any answer to this?

Second: Why do you know for "100% certainty" that Zwet is scum? Proof? Your role? Anything?

[Beyond_Birthday]

I'm not certain that you have taken into account the whole situation with your theory. If JereIC flipping town is such an indicator of Spring's alignment, why would Spring have NK'd JereIC instead of someone else? I understand the old "He was creating WIFOM" argument, but with the attention it would garner, I think that hitting someone else, then going after JereIC as a lynch target today would have gained him one more day (and night) without this type of pressure. What reason do you think that Spring would have had for killing him last night? JereIC too much for him to handle during daytime discussion? Something Jere said rang too close to home for scum? He thinks Jere breadcrumbed a role?

I thought the WIFOM situation it created would be reason enough. I'm sure either scum predicted that this conversation would take place; it's equally possible that Jere did nothing remarkable at all, except act as a target for spring, and his kill is supposed to flag the unremarkable. Those two pieces of WIFOM alone make the kill worthwhile.

Following both rationale, I don't quite see scum needing to create this wifom now, is possibly Ecto's point. I could see the wifom argument as being legitimate AFTER Spring is in trouble and attracting attention because then it could be conceivable to pull the "Poor pitiful me, scum is framing me" argument, but I don't see the argument in creating this much wifom early on.

However, we cannot discount your point Nuwen, so I too have a question:

If Spring scum, then who else is scum?

[Beyond_Birthday]

What accusations? All he said is that Zach didn't vote. BB is reluctant because of that noob town switch. It was too hasty and seemed contrived.

With this post, you show you obviously don't feel the need to read people's posts. Not really scummy, just a notice that bothered me.

Oops. I thought I did vote spring on page fourteen. I must have deleted it.

Vote: Spring

. I'd like Zach to explain exactly why my post makes him think I pushed for a NK, using quotes from yesterday. I never showed much interest in Spring yesterday, and I don't think I implied yesterday that I was going after the spring case today. I simply noticed the arguments presented against spring, and now that significant incriminating evidence has been provided, I have good grounds to find him scummy.

Why are you not citing specific cases from yesterday? How is JereIC's alignment give you damning evidence on Spring? I see you forming some kind of case against Spring here, and yet, you are accusing her of being scum based on interactions (without explaining how they conclude: "If Jere town, spring scum") between jere and spring without showing where (or which posts) demonstrate that Spring is likely to be the inverse alignment of Jere.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I don't like how Nuwen igored that part of Jere's case on her was the Jere flip-flop. I thought it should point against Spring's towniness because:

1) Spring had an argument with Jere and thought him scum yesterday
2) Spring probably thought that if Jere died and flipped town he would be incriminated
3) If a cop investigated Jere and got an innocent Spring would be in a big pit
4) Solution: take out Jere fast and try to convince the town that it was a Mafia framejob today
5) Get mad at everyone by saying that cases against him would be WIFOM.

1. True.
2. Assumes Spring is scum, so I will treat "Spring is mafia/scum" as a given. Thus, I suppose that to a mild point, town Jere might incriminate spring.
3. Cop would out himself for an innocent? This seems rather stupid. A cop dying=/= the gain of a "proven" innocent. (Sanity of cop is also assumed, so you're starting to reach.) Also, wouldn't it be easier to attempt and find cop and kill him before he reveals Jere is town. (Now, this assumes that Cop won't out himself with only one result.) Also, this plan of trying to find cop works far better because cop may investigate Spring, which is undefended in your theory. Sounds a bit like specious reasoning...
4. ...a gambit by mafia this early is an assumption also based on specious reasoning. Also, this hasn't happened.
5. This hasn't happened either.

Vote Zwet

im here.

vote: beyond_birthday

not gonna lie, pretty pissed that despite a few smarter people going hes town you morons you guys still lynched z3r0ph34r.

lets get the scum this time, hmm?

Just acknowledging the vote on me since there is nothing to defend against.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I thought Zero much more scummy than Spring, and I never said Spring was scum yesterday, because I didn't know anything about JereIC's alignment.

Where do you conclude scum spring would night kill JereIC? Further, how do you conclude that their alignments are inverse? Granted, it isn't the worst theory, but neither looks super scummy or super town. (I know this from rereading.) So, I don't really see how their alignment gives too much information.

I also didn't see anything like this claim suggested in Nuwen's summary of your posts. I may reread your posts to check later (don't feel like it now), but this attack of yours seems a little forced and unsupported.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I find Zwet's post attacking Spring is pointless. I am unsurprised to find a nonchalant Spring, and Nuwen and Zach are at least still sane.

Conclusion: No change in thoughts or play. Enjoy.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Bon Mardi gras à tout le monde!

[Beyond_Birthday]

I see no defense, zwet.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Hm... I still have no change of position. Just checking in. (Also, how can Spring have a real defense to a joke case based on wifom and conjecture?)

[Beyond_Birthday]

Good luck Ecto!

Anyway, I think people need to give opinions on Zwet, etc.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Self hammer...?

I did not see that one coming. Wonder how he'll flip, and to be honest, I don't think town zwet necessarily makes scum spring. I mean, his case is still ridiculous even if Zwet is town... but... I dunno. I'll just leave it to tomorrow.

[Beyond_Birthday]

*Avoids Mod's cereal killings*

Okay, Nuwen's dead, which sucks for the sole reason that I could almost taste the town aligned-ness coming off of him. What bothers me is that when I smell the corpse, can't tell...is he townie? Seriously, I don't see his role on the front or death scene? Maybe my inexperience is talking but I honestly don't know what Nuwen's role is... anyone know what comes up blank? (the three other bodies have a title, Nuwen doesn't. I feel bothered now.)

As for Setael:

I like his attack on Pablo as it contains that ever elusive creature of logic. What bothers me is Pablo's response... I'll muse on this and see if Pablo gains initiative to post a defense; side note: Yeah, I know my "turn around" looks bad, but I played a really bad game here cause I had four games at a time. It isn't an excuse, but it is also the reason I can't think to really vote Pablo yet. I did the same thing. So, to pablo, I extend the benefit of the doubt that maybe you really were lazy, but I'm going to need a demonstration that your actually going to participate in this game now.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Beyond - what do you mean you've done the same? Are you talking about being lazy? Do you agree that his play can be explained away as laziness?

You mentioned my turn around. Up to that point, I was starting a fourth game and let two of my games fall down and focused entirely on the other two. Then, I was called out, reread this game (Giving it the attention it deserved) and had my "turn around" as you call it. I think that while your points on Pablo do stand that he may have a reasonable excuse, laziness, and we should at least give him the benefit of the doubt and give him the chance to post meaningful content or explain his play. Otherwise, your points stand (and they might even after he stops being lazy) and we lynch him.

As for Spring:

I agree, but I think the Mod was joking... I hope...

Mod, please replace players and do not mod kill them.

Big fat meaningless FoS at Spring: While it doesn't clear Setael, I am curious as to why you think that a complete absence transfers into that player equalling scum. He could be scum with a partner doing all the work, sure, but I don't see your logical follow through at all.

[Beyond_Birthday]

EBWOP: That is sipylus(sp?) not setael. Sorry.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I wouldn't upset the moderator if I were you...

And we were in night for two weeks? I'll be honest; I didn't notice. Honestly, once a game goes to night, I do a night action instantly (if any needs to be done), and then I forget about it until I get prodded or the mod goes: HEY! DAY STARTED! YAY!

I still think the Mod "Cereal" killing was a joke and should be taken lightly.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Thanks Mod.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Alright, no matter the outcome, I'm not counting this game in my stats on account of townsuck and mod failure.

Vote Beyond_Birthday

For "not wanting to anger the mod". Only scum would care about not ending a game that sucks so much.

*assumes this is a joke since I still like Spring at the moment.*

Also, see my scum loss below? That was from the most anti mafia game I've ever played in which I was mafia. I think its about to finish up, but it was really complete bs, still, I don't quit. I really don't...

@Looker: I'm feeling Pablo.


However, the idea Zach presented of Setael/Ecto + Spring was interesting. Just, Spring's play looks like frustrated townie more than anything, and Ecto never struck me as scummy. But if one is scum, I can kind of see the other being, more so with Spring scum. I don't think Setael scum necessarily indicates Spring scum. I dunno, need more time to think on this.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Okay Zach, so if Setael is after a mislynch, how does that incriminate Spring? Or, are you arguing Spring with Setael? If so, how would you clear yourself with Spring's mafia association (I use this as, since your voting her, I assume you think Spring is mafia.)?

[Beyond_Birthday]

Okay Zach, so if Setael is after a mislynch, how does that incriminate Spring? Or, are you arguing Spring with Setael? If so, how would you clear yourself with Spring's mafia association (I use this as, since your voting her, I assume you think Spring is mafia.)?

I'm more convinced that Spring is scum than I am Setael. I think there's a good chance they are scum together though.

I can't clear myself, that's the point. That's why I suspect them.

I'm less interested in clearing myself than I am lynching scum.

Flawless. Zach isn't scum.

So, this moves on to his case on Spring which isn't bad:

Unvote (was I voting? Too lazy to look); Vote Springlullaby

I am going to look into Spring's play day 1, yesterday, and going to contemplate on Spring's play today. I like Zach very much right now, his percent just got cut in half actually.

Before my next post:

We're in "mylo" Mislynch and lose.

Lylo=lynch OR lose. ... unless you mean it is lynch and lose, which isn't necessarily true.

I personally think both these phrases are stupid, but I see it often enough to know to what it is referring.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Okay reread, gonna unvote: (and I skim, in depth reading isn't my thing.)

unvote

Alright, upon rereading:

Day 1: I dunno. She looks really town, but I can almost see scum playing this way. Hm... her confortability around the beginning looks very town, but it could be scum confidence that town wouldn't dare lynch anyone, and if they did, as per her argument, I, among others, would probably hang the offenders. So, hm... I see this as very "either way," but I get an overall vague town read.

Day 2: Her deflection of a rather weak, pathetic argument from Zwetchenwasser could truly go either way, but the play overall needs to be chalked up to town play there. I mean, look at it. She even keeps her focus on Nuwen "associating her name with [Ectomancer's]." It looks like very strong town play or superb scum play.

Day 3: I think this is a frustrated...whatever she is. I could see scum or town acting this way, and her comment (while voting me for a rather ridiculous reason) could be cover up for her OR genuine town play. (I read tones and such, but this could be a façade, I must admit.)

Although I feel her play today has been absolute crap, her record stands by her side, hence my unvote.

Still, I like Zach response. So, I'm going to be assuming scum out of...

Madame-fobs-hero
Looker
Setael
Wolfblitzer
Pablo Molinero

I'm king of thinking Wolf or Pablo is scum, but *if* I were to assume Spring is correct in her theory that unreplaced lurkers are scum, then that would leave:
Hero, Looker, and Setael as scum.

Among them, Setael has looked fairly protown (ie, Ecto has looked fairly protown) and leaves me no real reason to suspect him. Hero struck me funny, but for what reason, I can't recall. May have been an oddity and not scummy. I need to reread him and is formers. As for Looker: I don't think today's has been awkward or scummy in my view.

Which means: Maybe there is only one active mafia member and one or both of the lurkers are mafia with him (with only one kill, I'm guessing no serial killer). I can almost imagine the mafia member thinking he could win easily with two lurkers because they won't attract attention, but this is most definitely farfetched.

End of subject is:

I need opinions on these ideas. ITS HOW I FUNCTION, TOWN! HELP ME HELP YOU!! <--- is making fun of the town that seems pretty dead until replacements replace in.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Beyond_Birthday

What do you think of Spring's sudden desire to lurker hunt given that the fact that the dangerous situation that the town is in may not immediately have been known?

Keep in mind here that if she is scum, and Sipylus/Looker is innocent, (and she is aware of this.) it would be a potentially winning play.

Okay, okay: Granted. I would agree with you, however, ONLY if spring had voted for one of the lurkers and kept it there. She is, instead, voting me which forces me to think she is playing irrationally irregardless of her role.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Hm...

*Shakes head*
I'm having a hard time reading your slammed paragraph Pablo, but I think I get the jist of what you're saying. So, can someone make a case on Spring (eg, Pablo or Zachrulez) because I analyzed her play and came up town. Both of you are suggesting she's scum, but not providing cases. (Zach, this less applies to you, but I mention you in particular because you haven't really tried swaying me from my position. If you think you have scum, I'd like to be swayed if you're town. You're hesitance makes it seem like you're not so sure, and if this is the case, which I think your vote on Pablo indicates, I'd like you to say so.)

...
I just realize that my note to Zach is the same size as my point...
weird...
*Sighs*
Okay, it's time for this:

Mod: Spring may need a prod and probably a replacement considering her attitude in leaving the game.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Maybe you could share this town analysis of Spring with us BB?

Congratulations! You can't read!

Okay reread, gonna unvote: (and I skim, in depth reading isn't my thing.)

unvote

Alright, upon rereading:

Day 1: I dunno. She looks really town, but I can almost see scum playing this way. Hm... her confortability around the beginning looks very town, but it could be scum confidence that town wouldn't dare lynch anyone, and if they did, as per her argument, I, among others, would probably hang the offenders. So, hm... I see this as very "either way," but I get an overall vague town read.

Day 2: Her deflection of a rather weak, pathetic argument from Zwetchenwasser could truly go either way, but the play overall needs to be chalked up to town play there. I mean, look at it. She even keeps her focus on Nuwen "associating her name with [Ectomancer's]." It looks like very strong town play or superb scum play.

Day 3: I think this is a frustrated...whatever she is. I could see scum or town acting this way, and her comment (while voting me for a rather ridiculous reason) could be cover up for her OR genuine town play. (I read tones and such, but this could be a façade, I must admit.)

Although I feel her play today has been absolute crap, her record stands by her side, hence my unvote.

Still, I like Zach response. So, I'm going to be assuming scum out of...

Madame-fobs-hero
Looker
Setael
Wolfblitzer
Pablo Molinero

I'm king of thinking Wolf or Pablo is scum, but *if* I were to assume Spring is correct in her theory that unreplaced lurkers are scum, then that would leave:
Hero, Looker, and Setael as scum.

Among them, Setael has looked fairly protown (ie, Ecto has looked fairly protown) and leaves me no real reason to suspect him. Hero struck me funny, but for what reason, I can't recall. May have been an oddity and not scummy. I need to reread him and is formers. As for Looker: I don't think today's has been awkward or scummy in my view.

Which means: Maybe there is only one active mafia member and one or both of the lurkers are mafia with him (with only one kill, I'm guessing no serial killer). I can almost imagine the mafia member thinking he could win easily with two lurkers because they won't attract attention, but this is most definitely farfetched.

End of subject is:

I need opinions on these ideas. ITS HOW I FUNCTION, TOWN! HELP ME HELP YOU!! <--- is making fun of the town that seems pretty dead until replacements replace in.

(Welcome replacements.)

[Beyond_Birthday]

Ok, that post you quoted is great and all, except that I don't see where you say she reads town... I see a lot of "could go either ways."

I had read that post... but if you had strongly asserted a town read on Spring, I wouldn't have asked you that question. (This analysis does not indicate a town read to me.)

I understand. Essentially, I have this to say:
I *can* understand Spring as town. However, I'm saying her play isn't exclusively town. I feel that coming up to it, her play today can be indicative of either alignment HOWEVER, I get generally town from her play. Looking at Vi's reasoning of Spring being strongly likely to be scum:
Vi, I know your throwing out your analysis of Spring's play, but what made you think she was scum? Just the convenience of the play or something actually rang a scumbell for you?

Vi's read: I am a psychopath. Thanks for noticing. *Takes knife which has been suspiciously absent for a while, cut's Vi's wrist and drinks the blood.* Mmm...sweet....

On the argument: *taps knife against lap.* Okay, I'll bite. The argument is good. The connection between Zach and myself is...well... *thinks* I don't know. I mean, it is flawed. I am not mafia. However, other than this, it reads like the Pablo argument did to me. I can see it. It is conceivable. It makes sense. Here's what doesn't make sense:

Springlullaby: Meh, either way.

Zach: Having read the post, I can see zach scum playing this way. After seeing his response, he makes it seem like he's suggesting that between the two of us, one of us has a good possibility to be town. Well, I know I'm town, but ignoring this, let's pretend I have a chance of being scum:

If we were both scum, Zach attacks me (his last post has done that): Either of us are lynched, the other is VERY likely to be town. Thus, two scum should do this. I don't like this play, and for Zach, this looks bad. Nope, don't like this at all.

If one is town, Zach attacks me:
If Zach were town: Well.... I know this isn't possible assuming one is one. Still, if Zach were town, I don't see how he would make the statement "At least one of us is town." It has more scum benefit to say that, but it could be town-aligned error. I don't like this at all.

If I am town: Then, Zach is trying to use the if we were both scum idea to secure a mislynch in the next lylo (tomorrow) assuming he is lynched today. If I am lynched today, mafia wins. Therefore, Zach could be making this play with that subtle statement to try and secure victory.

If we are both town:
Then his statement looks scummy, and although there is little benefit to town saying this, I guess it is town saying this.


Oddly, I feel that Zach is less concerned about the lylo situation and more concerned about getting who he wants lynched, lynched.

If I assume Zach is scum: I really don't see Spring is scum.

Since I know neither alignment but think that Spring, though recently ambiguous, is town, I think Zach is scum(my).

ZachRulez
Madame-fobs-hero (Vi)
Looker
Setael
Wolfblitzer
Pablo Molinero

He's back onf my list of potential/possible scum. Also, notice Spring's absence on this list? It has been (since my last post of it), and I think that I will wait for mfh, now VI's, response before I decide who should be on the next copy.

If vi is town, it is very likely Setael is town. If vi is scum, Setael still has an okay chance of being town.

Still don't really have a scum team formed. I've entered my fourth game of mafia (simul.), so I will give this a skim a bit later and form a scum team. I'll give vi and setael's Townie reads a look and try and find scum from the remainder. I'll also try and really delve into Spring's play and see if I can find something indicative of her alignment, but I didn't find anything the last two times, so we'll see.

PS: Zach, how is my inquiry rolefishing? You said that, after someone proposed Zach/spring that Spring looked scummy without clearing yourself and thus I wanted to know why you would be clear if Spring is scum. Not role fishing. Your answer was adequate, but this read of my intent is not.

[Beyond_Birthday]

It's alright talking cow. (your name is confusing to spell)

@Zach: If I were close minded, I would let that sole response defend you. I still think the possibility both of us are town exists EXCEPT, that your response to Vi (where you inserted the idea that one of the people he was attacking is probably town) is stupid. Your statement, as I said, doesn't make any sense to me.

Also, I feel quite strongly that your role is probably inverse to Spring. Since we are in a mislynch and lose situation, we can't lynch one then the other. And that would assume that its true. Just because your play reflects that, I cannot be totally certain you and spring are not both townies or both scum. I don't know.

I do know that you seem to be coming off really....badly lately. Its like I give you a pass to say: He looks very town (from giving the flawless town answer) and you've successfully dashed it in the next post.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Ebwop: Next FEW posts.

[Beyond_Birthday]

....
Assuming that was an actual day kill, you know who I think the scum team is. Later, if there is a later.

*stands here, waiting to be blown apart in the snow like Rorshach by Dr. Manhattan.*

[Beyond_Birthday]

....
Assuming that was an actual day kill, you know who I think the scum team is. Later, if there is a later.

*stands here, waiting to be blown apart in the snow like Rorshach by Dr. Manhattan.*

still catching up, just wanted to make a note here:

Vi "daykills" anyone who calls him/her(I'm still not sure with all the avatar switching. What is your current avi, anyway?) VI, because VI is village idiot.

*goes back to catching up*

Ah, in that case, excuse the capitalizing error. (However, I feel relatively certain day vig is, as the sole "odd role," allowed in normal games, so I was like: Well, I can sign up elsewhere, I 'spose.)

On the Vi analysis: Would you say that you conclude that Spring is fairly ambiguous in play but roughly pro town? (This is my read of her from earlier, though not as detailed as yours.)

At Zach: *hm...*

At people who appear to actually be playing at the moment:

Okay, we're in a mislynch and lose situation. Would it be better to nolynch?
I'm considering that we're at a point where 3/8 people are probably mafia. Therefore, about half the town is mafia. I'm thinking tomorrow, assuming only one kill, 3/7 is slightly better odds and holds the same consequences for mislynch as we have today. From my perspective, this makes sense, and I understand that mafia theory on the site typically claims no lynching is a bad move for town, but mathematically, I think it can only help. (Unless mafia decide to no kill, but I doubt they gain anything from a no lynch.)

I'll make a case tomorrow, just felt like posting this right now.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Okay, we're in a mislynch and lose situation. Would it be better to nolynch?
I'm considering that we're at a point where 3/8 people are probably mafia. Therefore, about half the town is mafia. I'm thinking tomorrow, assuming only one kill, 3/7 is slightly better odds and holds the same consequences for mislynch as we have today. From my perspective, this makes sense, and I understand that mafia theory on the site typically claims no lynching is a bad move for town, but mathematically, I think it can only help. (Unless mafia decide to no kill, but I doubt they gain anything from a no lynch.)

I hadn't actually thought about the possibility of a no lynch.

I don't really see how it's going to help us though. The way I see it, no lynching is only going to further dilute the town's voting power and increase the scum's influence on getting a mislynch.

The whole argument of narrowing the field is kinda ridiculous anyway as the scum are likely going to kill the person that town considers least likely to be scum anyway.

So... I think I'd prefer that there be a lynch, even if it's me.

Hm, I see Vi (and your's, quoted) point. Okay, just wondering why this was unsuggested other than standard mafia theory.

Moving on:
Looker: What the hell? There have been several theories on scum and you post a one liner about one point that took up maybe 1/1000th of the content?

*head desk* If the lurkers are mafia, I honestly think that I will shoot my foot. (Not because I believe they are not mafia, but because that if lurkers (except one/two) are mafia, the town is biting its head off in our current predicament.

[Beyond_Birthday]

From the looks of Beyond's play today he spent the beginning of the day suspicious of Pablo, but not suspicious enough to vote. I guess the feeling is that Pablo's been lazy through the game like him.

He jumps around on suspicions a bit. Seeming to think Spring is scummy enough for a vote one second, and then not scum the next. This leads to an interesting situation where Beyond responds to my 530 by voting for Spring, then doing an analysis of Spring and unvoting her. (Shouldn't you have done the analysis FIRST?)

Something similar to this happened on day 1, where Beyond started by going after Zero, changing his vote to Spring, and then doing his turnaround and once again voting for Zero.

I am finding it strange how beyond constantly finds himself aimed at Spring, but when the time comes to actually back up a case, back to the popular bandwagon. On day 1 this was Zero. On day 3, with the strength, size and veracity of Vi's case against me, he suddenly decides to adapt to the replacement and find me scummy despite the fact that he practically declared me town earlier.

At this point, I'm feeling a Pablo/Beyond team quite strongly... and I wouldn't be surprised if someone weird that I haven't seriously suspected was scum with them.

I'd take a lynch of either Pablo or Beyond today. (Still feeling slightly better about a Pablo lynch, mainly because knowing I'm town and presuming Setael is as well, I have to wonder why Pablo wouldn't have been run up by scum yet...)

Other recent observations: Beyond seems to feel that I'm the top scum candidate (564) as per his most recent list that I'm on the top of, but apparently not strongly enough to risk pushing my lynch over proposing a no lynch. (582) (Does he know I'll flip town?)

When that idea doesn't fly, he starts pushing the theory that MAYBE the lurkers are scum. (588)

I see a lot of digesting of what is posted from Beyond, and then a general regurgitation of the most recently posted thoughts and Beyond tends to try to adapt to what is the fashionable topic of discussion at the particular point in time.

*Shrugs* I agreed with your point on Spring. I voted her and decided to follow it up afterward because I know at one point I suspected Spring and then later recanted, I did another analysis. See later for the dilemma I have.

Wrong. Being at the top of my list is meaningless.

What idea?

Well, if the lurkers arn't scum, I'm forced to conclude that some people, who I felt relatively certain are town, are very likely to be scum.

Your last statement: To be fair, this may or may not be a fair ascertainment of my play, but this is not how I literally process things.

Okay, my dilemma:

Archeon - Springlullaby: I can say that I have long term suspicion of Spring where I will be legitimately certain she is scum, but when I express this (see day 1) it comes out as non sense or barely coherent. Then, I reread, and find her play to be amiable. I guess the issue is that her play has been so "town/scum" that I cannot read her, and thus, have an issue pursuing her as a lynch.
Beyond Birthday: The serial killer. I just know this, you know?
Vi: Eh, Skillit and hero did nothing to really sway me either way. Vi looks town to me, and his cases have been strong and relatively free from bias. I disagree with his conclusion that I'm scum, but he has several good points against Zach. Also, his agreement with Setael with Pablo (and Pablo's reaction to disappear) makes the two of them seem mildly tied, but each presenting a valid opinion.
Pablo Molinero: Setael's case is very convincing and this is probably who I'm going to vote.
Hasdqfas: Per, no idea. Wolf came in like a slightly pro town player. Has has made no posts.
Zachrulez: Oh so much. I can see Zach as very skilled scum who is suddenly flustered (mildly) by Vi's attack. Zach's target was Springlullaby, which, given his thoughts, made her seem a sensible enough lynch for the day. However, his latest posts make it seem that he is primarily interested in having someone lynched other than him. I have a vague feeling that Zach/spring is scum, but not both together.
Looker: Ugh... I dunno on sips or looker. I just don't know.
Seteal: Hm... Ecto seemed really town, but I can somewhat see Seteal as scum if Spring were scum, but overall, I kind of doubt it.

So:
Spring/Zach (Dilemma 1)
Pablo (Pseudo Dilemma)
Third scum is...
Setael, Vi, looker, has: So either 1/2 lurkers or 1/2 "town" people. (Dilemma 2)

THe good news is that after doing this list:

Vote Pablo

He seems like best bet for scum as he looks definitive (as one of the scum as I've outlined.)
I think I slightly suspect Zach more than Spring, but I wouldn't have any idea who the third would be.

[Beyond_Birthday]

BB - you tied me to Vi AND Spring in that post without backing it up. I have a problem with this since I have reason to suspect both of them. So if one of them come up scum (which I actually find likely), after your last post you could then point fingers squarely at me without ever giving a reason. Please be more specific so I can tell you why you're wrong. What makes you suspect a Vi/me and a Spring/me scumpair? Please answer this without parroting others' arguments. I happen to think zach has a point about a lot of your posts.

I don't.

Setael, I'm not saying your scum or tied to either. I said that you were mildly tied because you and Vi, on your opening posts, attacked Pablo.

On Spring, well, look at Ectomancer and Springlullaby's behavior at the start of day one. They bickered a bit but seemed kind of chummy. So, if Spring is scum, the suspicion of Ecto, thus you, is slightly elevated. It doesn't make you scum as mafia are likely to buddy up with anyone.

Man, I'm tied to BB/Zach by Vi, Spring/Zach by BB, and Spring/BB by Zach as a buddy. Anyone see something wrong with this? In my experience, people agreeing is never, ever a good thing. Either epic bussing is happening (very unlikely at presumed LyLo), or ya'll are wrong. Think about it.

----

Well, for one, I've been moving from Dayton to Columbus to Cincinnati in the past week. (Like, moving, moving, not just driving to and from). Would it be better if I just popped in with a "sorry busy week, lol" and went away? As for when I'm not moving about the state, "Hiding" isn't really an apt word for my behavior, methinks, more frustration and apathy with all the fukkin' replacements and never really getting "into" the game, so I never established any momentum.

(Thanks for your 562, Vi, so I know who the hell is who and who was on the wagons)

As for your other question Setael question about Zach, I'm finding him scummy from both Vi's (high protown player sofar) arguments and his recent "I'd like a lynch, even if it's me" noble-bullshit attitude WHEN WE'RE AT LYLO. No logical town would say that seriously, so I'm highly suspecting that it's just an act.

Vote: zachrulez

Beyond's recent behavior does nothing to inspire confidence (how the hell am I potential buddies to these two, Vi??) in that Zach expresses his desire for a Pablo or BB lynch and BB is quite quickly on the Pablo train. Cause and effect.

All wifom aside:

I'm still good voting Pablo.

He thinks that town thinking together (along the same lines) is bad. Well, I think that town has decided on a common denominator. We all have an inkling that Pablo is scum, and the cases against him are not flimsy. While he may have been moving, his lurking, for whatever ever reason, the comment on town agreeing (when in lylo, 5/8 need to agree), it looks like he is trying to divide the town. So, my vote today is to have Pablo hang. (Unless someone convinces me otherwise.)

Side note:

Setael...wtf? When did I tie you to Vi? I said you too made similar cases on Pablo, otherwise, you two really arn't connected otherwise.

[Beyond_Birthday]

EBWOP: Crosspost:

Hm... at the point Vi bolded,

I think with the part of the post I was concerned about (which basically said town consensus was bad when I read it) negates the bussing statement because it ignores the possibility of all town voting Pablo. Still, that makes a broad assumptiong and isn't necessarily true. Hm.. still requires thought. Maybe Vi is right:

No one vote Pablo yet, at least until Cow catches up.

[Beyond_Birthday]

He thinks that town thinking together (along the same lines) is bad.

And how do you know that it is town "thinking together" instead of mafia stringing a couple of townies along? So YES, I want people to be stingy with their trust. I just finished a game where the town insisted on coming to a consensus at LyLo instead of thinking individually for themselves. Obviously, scum walked away with the easy win. And instead of twisting one point of mine, how bout you stop ignoring the others: what about Zach's recent "there has to be a lynch, I don't care even if it's me" and your sudden focus on me (eager to clear your name/divert focus?)

Setael, you talk about my alignment after the lynch. Does that mean you aren't aware of our presumed LyLo, or do you not think we are at LyLo?

*Head slams desk* To be honest, my last post had this giant rambling thing about how I was angry about a relatively town post, and then I wifomed myself about how if you were Zach's partner and it came off (even to myself immediately after writing it) as incoherent and needing more of a basis. Therefore, I read your post with the assumption your scum. Your refute is strong though which means...

I have no idea who scum is.

Let me get this straight:

BB can see Zach, Pablo, or [random lurker] as scum, but at the moment, lacks any kind of strong suspect due to the great wavering of play (town versus scum) of half the players and another 1/4th is lurking. Ergo, I don't have a f*cking clue who scum is anymore. I reread, and this game seems to be one giant passive play.

Zach: Pablo, BB, and um.... ???? are possible scum.

Vi thought Pablo, BB, and Zach are likely scum, but is voting Looker as also potential scum.

Setael: Thinks Pablo is scum

Pablo thinks Zach/(and?) BB are scum and .... ???.

Looker: NO idea who Looker suspects.

has: Reading. We need some fresh outlook because I am able to conclude one thing: I am confused.

Archeon: GET IN THE GAME! I ALMOST FORGOT YOU EXISTED!

Until activity picks up (and everyone remembers its lylo), I don't think we're going to be able to win this. Anyone have thoughts on a scum team? I feel a connection or vote analysis is potentially useful.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I don't understand the above post. Pablo is still playing poorly.

Also,

Setael: Granted, but you just said it yourself: you two both presented Pablo cases with your opening case. You are reacting rather strangely since I simply acknowledged the fact you two are tied for making the same opening move. It doesn't really amount to anything anyway. By this point, I don't think you (or Vi with any strength) are scum, and least of all, tied together.

@Looker's 625:

I think the six not involved in this post should definitely feel insulted as, for Looker, scum seems to equal intellect. Thus...zach is the most intelligent.

Fakevote Looker (for insulting me)

Setael: Do you have more of a case on Looker or is the point of your post that there is such a lack, you can't even form one? What about the person who looker replaced? Anything?

[Beyond_Birthday]

So he's trying too hard or he's insane? What does that even mean? Do you think it's scummy to try too hard or is that something townies do? What about insane? Once again you're avoiding actually stating your suspicions. Why? Still lazy? Give us a solid opinion for once.

BB: evidently you and I differ in our interpretation of "tied". To me it means "possible scum buddies". What does it mean to you? Just that they agree on one point or one person's alignment? Wouldn't you say most everyone in this game is tied in some way then? How do you decide which ones to mention?

I explained my vote. I'd like to hear from a few others about archon, looker and pablo's recent play, none of which seem very town.

No, tied for me means its defintion: connected. Mildly tied, therefore, means that a weak link does exist between two people. Not quite buddying up, but having the same thought process on their opening post makes the two of you look tied. However, Vi didn't say: "Oh look, Setael's post is amazing! I'm just going to regurgitate everything he says and vote Pablo!" Instead, he actually made his own case, thus tied. This may or may not be scummy, and since then, you two have done nothing that make you look tied, and your predecessors (both of your ~, to clarify) didn't look tied. It doesn't say anything about alignment at the weak level you two were associated with each other because both of your cases are independently pro town in their presentation.

Also, I don't pick which ones to mention, I just make notes and post them. (Responses to questions and my notes=my posts. Thus, early day one posts are just horsing around and teasing until game gets started. This game was different in that I was lazy...my bad.)

Well, dunno if you wanted my opinion or not:

Looker: Stupid. Not sure if scummy, but stupid.

Pablo's recent play: ... I don't know.... could be desperate scum trying to sever ties to others and viciously attack those that look like popular town targets OR trying to insure that when lynched and flipped scum, Zach and I look connected as Vi (and I think Zach and I did to each other) are also lynched, thus a mislynch occurs and mafia win anyway. I have a great deal of trouble reading Pablo since I can admittedly understand the laziness of his play, but then again, I ceased to be lazy on day 1 (when called out on it). Now, however, we are in lylo, and until the situation came to his proximate death did he care to actually play the game.

Archon: Spring is really either way for me, slight town vibe (And I MEAN "slight"). However, Archon hasn't put any effort into this game yet, so I'm not sure yet.

No one has anything to say about my post? Okay...

As for my whole deal with looker;

I see no scuminess. Looker seems to just be in it for the fun. if he were scum, he probably would not be playing this way, and would be just a bit more cautious (I'm sure I spelt it wrong). I just see a level of noobness I have never seen before.

"Cautious" is spelled correctly. Ironically, "spelt" isn't a word.

I have nothing to say about your post, but it does look like effort...just not enough to really note. Also, I got your joke, it's still stupid AND:

"Bussing" is a reference to a moral story where someone will throw another person under a bus if he is large enough to stop the run away bus from hitting a group of people. (The idea is that it is immoral to "bus" someone, but moral to sacrifice one's self in order to save the people."
In Mafia:
Bussing is the generally mafiaoso tactic of encouraging the lynch of a fellow mafia member in order to look more town and possibly eliminate a troublesome partner (someone who is really scummy OR someone who the mafia team would be willing to sacrifice to make it to end game, etc.).

Vi: I knew you were voting Looker, but your follow up is interesting.

Zach: logical follow through, I suppose, but still rather interesting. I can't wait to see Archon's response. That will possibly decide who I vote. With each post, my interest in Pablo is heavily wavering. I'm kind of losing faith in that vote...

meh:

Unvote

For now... I'll vote someone after I see looker/archon respond.

[Beyond_Birthday]

3. what am I supposed to respond to? there really isn't much content for me, once I boil it down.

If I missed something, or yada yada yada, just ask me.

Nothing. I haven't really gleaned much content from you, so my post (to you) was mostly just informing you on things. Plus, I think Zach voted you, care to respond to that? It was right next to the Vi post you quoted..., so I doubt you missed it.

I'm not going to write looker off as a noob quite so easily. Even if he is a noob, nothing I have seen points to noob town over noob scum. Plus, there is far too much resistance to even pressuring him and with 3 scum still alive, it makes sense that it would be tough to get a wagon rolling if it's on scum.

As far as Setael, I voted her because I was replacing in and she had no votes on her and wasn't voting anyone.

Bluff. Pick two random names, throwem in the sea and see what ripples they make. i'm tellin u, zach, i could have just as easily did the same process with anyone else that wasn't voting or had no votes on them. it's more of a "hey i'm here" vote than anything else, certainly not a "100% scum" vote. appreciate your honesty, though

Check your facts. I voted Pablo my very first post, and stayed on him until I switched to you. Want to come up with another reason, since your first one is bunk?

P.S. I probably won't be able to check the thread for the rest of the weekend.

I have no talent for reading "newb scum" versus "newb town." So, if you care to point out things Looker has done that indicates scum anything (particularly something an amateur scum is more likely to do), be my guest.

@Has: Just to respond to the point of where you are:
I didn't think I came off as town/scum. I was kind of half playing this game since I was totally consumed by another game, hence my restart. The fact you thought I came up as town up that point was a huge shocker to be honest. (Response to Has on his analysis of pages 11-16)

Just be sure to take some notes of questions you wanna ask, I'll be glad to answer them (as best I can).

[Beyond_Birthday]

Yeah, I saw zach's post. I reallt don't have any comments. it's not that I have no counter-reasonings, I just don't feel he is a threat to me. its one vote so far. if more people voted for me, I would then start to retort.

You can ask me questions though. I'm always happy to answer them

I don't like cute.

*Smiles*
Lets Carve a "B" in that heart of yours...
*pulls out favorite knife*

Seriously, you can't say: "Oh yeah, I know he voted me, and even though its lylo, I have no reason to try and counter him. But, yeah, I like...have counter reasons, but, you know, whatever."

Look, its lylo. Mathematically, that means there are 5 townies. Unless 1 or 2 of the three mafia see a bus as REALLY necessary to their victory, they will be hesistant to vote a partner off of weak reasoning. IF you were town aligned, you would realize that it is essential you correct ANYONE'S attack on you, no matter how weak, because we will need ALL of the townie votes to get a player lynched (assuming we do lynch scum and scum never vote partners. Obviously, toward the end of a wagon, I'd imagine, scum would vote for the one about to die).

Using this line of reasoning, I

Vote Archon

[Beyond_Birthday]

You say I'm either calculating, or newb. I ask you to take a look at this, and see if it dosen't ping newb readings. viewtopic.php?p=1527463#1527463

continue to read my posts. I assure you they are not that of a calculating scum.

I assure you, townspeople, I am not scum.

That's an ongoing game that you're not dead in.

Which means... what exactly?

I encourage you to look at my usual MO, and then compare it to what I am doing now.

That's against the rules....to refer to an ongoing game regardless of your living/dead status...

Also, since you are alive, it's meaningless.
I'm with Zach on this one... just because of my above reasoning... (Still, as I mentioned before in attacking Archon, we need town concensus, so, assuming you attacking Looker are town, we need to resolve this and decide (assuming one *is* scum) who between our two prime suspects is more likely to be mafia. Also, Vi needs to weigh in, and I would love it if one of you (archon or Looker) would actually defend yourself.

[Beyond_Birthday]

You can do anything at Zombo.com.

The world is yours at Zombo.com.

Seems to me that B_B is overlooking a first naive, skittish player for another. Hypocritical and smacks of protecting someone. Your line of:

I have no talent for reading "newb scum" versus "newb town." So, if you care to point out things Looker has done that indicates scum anything (particularly something an amateur scum is more likely to do), be my guest.

really, really looks like you're playing the "indifferent" card to someone that shouldn't get that benefit.

Who have I protected?

And more importantly: How am I playing the "indifferent" card? I will never IC a amateur game if I can avoid it because everytime I see a complete novice play this game, I chalk almost every bad, newbie idea they have up to "scummy." So, I gave up on reading this. I used to spend time deciding, but I don't really know. However, if you have a magical crash course on the difference in newb town versus newb scum behavior, I am very open to being enlightened.

Also, if we need to get this exactly right: How about you start telling us your opinion who is the exactly right lynch?

I endorse the above statement by Setael.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I think I need to put a gun to my head and blow my brains out. I decided (shortly after joining this game) to lurk for the first five pages so I could avoid the Random voting stage, but I feel like, as this game reaches page 30, we have suddenly reentered the realm where nonsense and stupidity run rampant, where votes exist, but just seem to be cast on a whim of emotion without logic or reasons....

I need to shoot myself.

On subject:
Pablo: Could you rephrase your post? It is the only one that seems to vaguely contain content, but I don't really understand what it says.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Give me reasons that you're voting for Arch that are NOT seen in Looker (who showed off his stupid first and got your "I have no talent for reading "newb scum" versus "newb town." " reaction). Use bullet points if you want to make it simple. Hell, something plz.

Yeah, I saw zach's post. I reallt don't have any comments. it's not that I have no counter-reasonings, I just don't feel he is a threat to me. its one vote so far. if more people voted for me, I would then start to retort.

You can ask me questions though. I'm always happy to answer them

I don't like cute.

*Smiles*
Lets Carve a "B" in that heart of yours...
*pulls out favorite knife*

Seriously, you can't say: "Oh yeah, I know he voted me, and even though its lylo, I have no reason to try and counter him. But, yeah, I like...have counter reasons, but, you know, whatever."

Look, its lylo. Mathematically, that means there are 5 townies. Unless 1 or 2 of the three mafia see a bus as REALLY necessary to their victory, they will be hesistant to vote a partner off of weak reasoning. IF you were town aligned, you would realize that it is essential you correct ANYONE'S attack on you, no matter how weak, because we will need ALL of the townie votes to get a player lynched (assuming we do lynch scum and scum never vote partners. Obviously, toward the end of a wagon, I'd imagine, scum would vote for the one about to die).

Using this line of reasoning, I

Vote Archon

Above=Reason Why voting for Archon over lurker as both have been theorized scum.

I think I need to put a gun to my head and blow my brains out. I decided (shortly after joining this game) to lurk for the first five pages so I could avoid the Random voting stage, but I feel like, as this game reaches page 30, we have suddenly reentered the realm where nonsense and stupidity run rampant, where votes exist, but just seem to be cast on a whim of emotion without logic or reasons....

I need to shoot myself.

Perhaps you should if your brain can't take it. Irrationality is the highest form of logic.

Daystab: Looker

<--Blantantly stolen from Vi.

I want this ability.

Has: I've read a 28+ page game in a day cause the guys were in a 3 person lylo. You should be able to rush through the game and get a feel for the remaining characters. Just dedicate an hour or two to it, it isn't that hard... (I was town that game, obviously we won...stupid mountainous multi-ball...)

[Beyond_Birthday]

question: would you prefer it if I attempted to fully catch up and continue hurting my head while reading this game and keep getting behind or pretty much "play from here forward" and go back when I need to look at something?

I'd prefer you kept reading while keeping your focus off dead people.
Srsly, I didn't want to read the thread either but I got it done in two days by ignoring the dead people until it became relevant not to.

I don't read the first post until I catch up fully because it helps my read better.

Let me put things into perspective.

Which of these, as Town, is more important?

A) The quality of your reread
B) Posting anything of relevance

while two people are being run up to L-1 at LyLo

C) Voting with the popular wagon (as of this five minutes) against someone you've expressed

no opinion of

in your reread walls - to L-1 - at LyLo - on the grounds of one sarcastic post

You're stalling. It's obvious. Unless my opinion of your play is terribly off, you're better than this.

So

Confirm Vote: hasdgfas

(L-4), etc.

Hm... does that mean that whoever has didn't vote for is more likely to be scum? (ie, Looker is more likely to be scum than Archon is has is scum.)

Otherwise, I don't see much point in stalling, unless, of course, has is trying not to say something today. But, that would insinuate that the game wouldn't end if we mislynch. (I'm concluding that if has is scum, whoever hasd voted for isn't scum.)

[Beyond_Birthday]

I think I get that. You believe that was Archon telling us he was scum, and trying to hide it behind a joke so that we wouldn't actually act on it?

Yes. I mean, I'm not sure how many people agree with me about "Scum try to tell us they're scum" and it's hard to explain, but it makes sense to me.

I highly disagree. I consider it a null tell and I know for a fact that I claim SK in almost every game. (jokingly) as a reference to my name.

This doesn't change my opinion on Archon, but I think your reading too much into that statement.

[Beyond_Birthday]

^
Why did you not ask the much more important question by Vi?

The reason I ask about s.lullaby is because Archon happens to be replacing her. Does that influence your decision to wallop Archon?

(not a defense of Archon; I want to see your thoughts)

[Beyond_Birthday]

Scum can make cases on each other for some wonderful WIFOM when they flip scum. Plus, trying to distract from his own case to throw it onto a scumbuddy is a wonderful way to seem town later.

You're giving scum-me far too much credit, why not the most simple answer of just one of us being scum? I have not seen a whole lot of strategic bussing in my time. We're playing by probabilities here: what is most likely to happen, since we can't be 100% sure of anything. You got unfounded speculation in your answer and that's it.

Just because it's rare doesn't mean we should assume that scum wouldn't strategically bus each other. Lets take a game where all three (or the two remaining) scum are "caught" by town as the top 2/3 suspects. The scum could then make vicious attacks against each other and attempt to win by being the lead crusader for the other's lynch. This possibility cannot be discounted.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Actually, looking through Archon's other games, I've kind of lost track of where he went from mentally challenged to mentally challenged scum.

I have looked at Looker's play, and consequently Looker's meta, and his actions don't look too far off what the norm is for him.

Yet the same provision wasn't made for Archon?

Archon's play on the other hand is extremely risky if newb town, and downright calculating as scum. Taking in those two possibilities, what do you think the lynch -1 vote was?

I can tell you the answer I got from process of elimination...

Ok... I lied. I decided to give your case another look, and actually checked his posts to verify the things you pointed out...

Wow...

This doesn't bode well to me for some reason.

Okay, sideshow's over; I'm going back to my original ideas.

1- Springlullaby - now Archon

2- Beyond Birthday

3- Skillit- madam.fobs.hero- now Vi

4- Pablo Molinero

5- PerArdua-WolfBlitzer- now Hasdgfas

6- Zachrulez

7- Sipylus-replaced by Looker

8- Ectomancer -replaced by Setael

Vote: Pablo Molinero

(L-4)

This bothers me for two reasons:

1. You make all attacks against Zach and then resume voting Pablo without renewing reason. Your logic progresses:
Hm... I thought Zac was scum.
I reviewed his recent actions to be scummy. Zac looks like scum.
I think Pablo could be Zac's partner.
Vote Pablo.

What the hell? That's kind of a round about turning point.

Also: Okay, Vi has claimed to have read other Archon games and meta defensed, right?
Looker, I know, always plays in this annoying as hell fashion.

Therefore: I will do a quick meta check on both players. Based on Vi's progression, I might vote Zac. Vi is his possible partner based on the illogical follow through of Vi's post. (Sounds like distancing with a threat to vote tomorrow. If there is no tomorrow though, then he just needs to frame Pablo for win?* Working idea.)

Now going to meta check Archon to verify. Looker *is* verified.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Did it occur to you that if Beyond is scum and I am not, that one of the things he may be trying to do is play up this perceived link between us that you seem to keep seeing? There isn't much I can do about him echoing my play other than voting him, and I'm not quite that suspicious of him compared to other players at the moment.

So you're trying to convince me that B_B is buddying to you like crazy, yet you're not that suspicious of him?

Also, keep in mind that I unvoted pablo at your urging, since Archon's lynch -1 vote seemed to freak you out so much. (Perhaps he's YOUR scumbuddy...)

Good point, minus the side comment. I would have expected scum to just pretend they didn't see anything. It's weak, but enough to allow me to pass by for this five minutes.

Next on

Vi's Carousel of Death!

is...

Unvote: Zachrulez
Vote: Beyond_Birthday

(L-4)

...the mysterious creepy guy who nobody has any opinion on! Last seen pushing the people who are already under pressure (weakly), and vaguely expressing opinions on who is scum here.

Looker: NO idea who Looker suspects.

has: Reading. We need some fresh outlook because I am able to conclude one thing: I am confused.

Archeon: GET IN THE GAME! I ALMOST FORGOT YOU EXISTED!

I see bias.

B_B, why should we let you live? *holds microphone close*

Obviously because voting me is the losing move for town by 3=3.

Other than that:
You don't have a case against me. I mean...really, how am I supposed to say, "Oh look, you're wrong" when you just attack me and ask me to defend myself against an unreasoned vote. Also, it isn't my fault no one's had an opinion on me. I post mostly frequently. My play is, honestly, a little all over the place, but I have tried my best to keep the town's intentions at heart and haven't done anything to the contrary, or you would have used it to bite my head off.

Now, I could vote you for attacking 3 different people in your past three post. For voting Pablo, and then seeing my post, making up a reason to vote Zach, and then from there, attacking me because I seem like a threat to you? I dunno, this is how I perceive your play on this page (31). Erego, I should vote you for lynch. However, since this is all a straight reaction, I think an OMGUS-esque vote isn't called for...yet. (I like Zac's theory on Archon+Vi Scum team. It was different. Zac, you're confusing me on if your town or not. Stop it.)

Instead, big, fat OMGUS FoS Vi. FYI, I don't think it is OMGUS, but since someone might accuse the FOS as being such, I'll tag it on there anyway.

@ Has post: Yeah... now that your caught up, care to be useful again?

@Vi: You haven't...really...never mind. And instead of procrastinating, going to go metahunting now.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Confirmed: Archon's always an idiot.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Great response, B_B. "I'm Town, I've been following along with everyone else for the sake of the Town, and you have no case" is extremely compelling. [/sarcasm]

In that case, let me lay out why I think you're scummy.

Your posts are, for the most part, unnecessary. I think if I removed your posts from the game, nothing of value would be lost - I would be able to understand what other people were saying just as well. You get really into the theoretical argument D1, but you don't bother with voting or doing anything other than playing Discussion Orderly. You say that you have no issue with voting people (149), but that's one thing you do noticeably seldom - and when you do, it just happens to be joining other votes.

As you explain below, the above is probably why Beyond has managed to escape mention from me for the most part up till now. It's a symptom of trying to stay under the radar.

Now notice the similarities between these posts.

Zach 126 - B_B 127
Zach 139 - B_B 149 (notice the same wording at the beginning of the post, and how they both suggest the wagon is not worth pushing)
B_B 197 - Zach 199
Both just happened to push Zer0 at the same times
Both just happened to push s.lullaby at the same times
Both just happened to go back to Zer0 at similar times (with B_B's wording re: Zer0's scumminess changing in midpost from useless to sinister)

Not that you talk about each other much. You credited him with your reasons for the Zer0 wagon twice, and then mentioned him in these places--
"As a side note, I like's Zach's recent posts..." - 242
"Zachrulez - Slightly town" - 282 (no explanation given)
"I wouldn't upset the moderator if I were you... " - 509
"However, the idea Zach presented of Setael/Ecto + Spring was interesting." - 526
"Flawless. Zach isn't scum. " - 538

--and Zach mentions you even less--

"364: Points out BB's reluctance to the Zero wagon." - 381
--ha, not really.
Notice that all of this is before D3, during which you were basically the only people playing anyway, and even then it's not like you said much to each other, let alone express suspicion of each other (until I replaced in).

There's also my original gripe about you--

Anyway, B_B has a rather sizeable train of conveniently dead people pointing to him, given the vote/death analysis. One interesting thing I noticed is that every time B_B takes offense to something Zach says, within two posts Zach is back to Extremely Good-Looking Town. Similarly, if you look at basically any time in D1 when B_B and Zachrulez posted near each other, it's about the same subjects and usually takes the same positions (Zer0 is worth voting, not backing down from Zer0, JereIC's case on springlullaby is solid, Zer0 is getting everyone's attention again, etc.) This isn't buddying, this is collaboration.

(...)

Miscellaneous: The arguing at the start of D3 looks cheesy to me. Seriously, throwing your votes around at LyLo without solid suspicions? You people are either bolder than I ever would be or know that nothing bad will come of it. Plus the whole modkill discussion bites (bited... bit... ugh, conjugating irregular vulgarities). I'd wager at most two of B_B, Zach, and springlullaby are scum based on this by itself, but not all three.

You agreed with this assessment of your play, and only now started to suggest Zach-scum. This sauce is weak, and Zach 565 drove it home.

On top of all of the above, did you notice that 752 was a basic agreement with you for going back to your original theories, and that Beyond basically threw an assertion out there that he'd vote me based on meta checks of Archon and Looker.

Once you change your vote to him. He turns from agreeing to you to becoming suspicious of you. Suddenly, I'm looking town again.

Holy shit, can someone's suspicious just happen to change so much simply in reaction to one's own desire for survival?

I see a lot of digesting of what is posted from Beyond, and then a general regurgitation of the most recently posted thoughts and Beyond tends to try to adapt to what is the fashionable topic of discussion at the particular point in time.

So why isn't Zach terribly interested in voting B_B again?

Fuck it.

Unvote, Vote: Beyond_Birthday

@Vi: By the same logic, you should be voting Zach... as we are "copying" each other in collaboration, neh?

@Zac: Convenient you'd follow Vi the moment he's taken his attention off of you.

Vote Zachrulez

You basically admit that you've had similar thoughts and then wind up voting me mostly because Vi thinks it is bad (scummy?) of you to not do so with your published thoughts.

@ Has post: Yeah... now that your caught up, care to be useful again?

Are you calling what I've done since then not useful? Sure, they might not be walls, but I don't think they're useless posts.

Obviously because voting me is the losing move for town by 3=3.

So you're

sure

that there are three scum then? hmmm.

BB: 1/4th rule states that in 12 players, 3 scum is very likely.

In fact, all of BB's post 766 seems really scummy to me. He's playing WAY too cautiously.
"I would vote for you but someone might call it OMGUS" just screams overcautious scum to me.

Saying that I'm not voting into an OMGUS trap isn't overcautious. Ignoring the issue is overcautious

Zac, you're confusing me on if your town or not. Stop it.

what's this supposed to be then?

Zac looks really scummy for 2-3 of his posts and then really town the next few. He's confusing the hell out of me.

I'm also not a big fan of Zach's vote here in 771 after Vi called him out on not voting for BB. Compliant scum?

I agree. See my earlier reaction

@ Post 775:

Therefore, if Zac and I am scum, Looker is scum. However, I disagree with BB scum = Looker scum from a third person point of view.

And since I know I am town, and from your logic, I think Zac scum=Looker scum. Therefore: It's time to lynch Zac.

I also think that if Zach is scum, Vi is likely scum based on his numerous cases that can, collectively, conclude Zach is scum, and then he votes someone else. I'm the flavor of the day! (Woo hoo)

[Beyond_Birthday]

I don't have a defense Vi. I can honestly say that something similar happened in a game that just closed. I was town, and attacked this way, and I can admit that your description of my play is kind of accurate, but I don't really have a formal defense aside from this meta, which may or may not be worthless. Sorry.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Or, because you just so cleverly forgot this (its cute) I'M TOWN!

Sheesh, honestly, you just don't make sense Vi. How many times must I tell you that I'm town before you get it! And if your theory says Looker's scum, maybe we should lynch Looker. I think Looker's scum with Zac, I think Archon or Looker is scum, and although Looker has meta showing he always plays this way, that doesn't exclude him from being a suspect or excuse his behavior. It's true, he's always an idiot, but I think he's probably a scummy idiot based on connections.

See: I'm currently chalking up possible scum teams:

I can loosely see a Zach, Looker, Vi. Vi hasn't strongly attacked Looker or Zach the way he focuses on Pablo and myself. However, Vi has certainly noted the Looker Zach connection, but what's the harm? He lynches one other townie, and its over, so who cares. (Assumes no doc, RB, etc).

Archon being scum wouldn't surprise me too much just because Spring wasn't ambiguous, but I must admit: Spring's attack that only Scum would want people to not be mod killed is ridiculous. Hypothetically, if I was scum, then I would want at least one townie modkilled, right? So, yeah: with that, it looks scummy more than town.

Pablo: Ehh... I'm not going to say I don't see it. He's been fairly scummy, and even though he "turned a new leaf" later in the game, I did the same thing and won't crucify him for that reason alone. Since being called out on it, I definitely think he's been, more or less, pro town.


Has: Potential scum? I dunno. Well... I'd say not. Just...something about Wolf' temp play scream obvs town and Has has given me 0% scum vibes.

Setael: Hm... same as Has, more or less. I can't really come up with any substance indicating him as scum.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Ebwop: Actually, if Has is scum, then Setael is scum. The opposite is also, probably, true.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Not scummy of you to forgot I AM town, but scummy of you to forget the possibility. Taken out of context, that phrase means something else entirely.

Actually, I will grant you that even in context it was slightly convoluted, but I pray this clarification helps.

[Beyond_Birthday]

FOS: Archon & Vi

Alright, due to this little exchange (and my role pm), I'm startin to get suspicious. I think this crap is staged.

If your role pm indicates someone IS scum, and not the fact that your "town" now might be a good time to share it with the rest of us.

@Vi:
Your basically saying that despite the fact you think you have a better case against Zach, you're going to lynch me to get to it? This just supports my theory that you're scum with Zach and Looker.

[Beyond_Birthday]

True, but he makes the most sense as your partner, so it is still association. And I didn't melt, I have no defense for my style of play. If you can't read it, our problem, but I can't really change the past now, can I?

I also don't understand how the body count "points" to me. And if it did, would scum really do this to themselves or to frame others?

[Beyond_Birthday]

Re: the vote count - The three people voting you at the last vote count were B_B, Zach, and hascow. You can talk to them.

Being an idiot outside of real life has no serious or permanent consequences,

MAFIA IS NOT JUST A GAME
IT'S A WAY OF LIFE
FAILURE IS UNACCEPTABLE

...okay, not really. But being helpful would be, y'know, helpful for the play-to-win types in the audience.

Yeah, Vi, I'm not so sure of your vote fishing. Seems... fishy.

Anything less vague you want to say about it?

And the reasoning behind this is...?

You quoted the reasoning.
The only thing more I can give you is that if scum CAN quickhammer for a mislynch today, they

should

. That's why putting people at L-1 at LyLo is a powerful (and terribly risky) investigative tool that should only be used accidentally.

*personality shift*
Would you like to vote Beyond_Birthday? You get a lollipop if you do *smile, smile*

Something about, what I hope was in jest, method of trying to get people to vote me scream scum aiming for mislynch. Interestingly enough, I think the "If scum can get a mislynch today, they should" comment was right from your mouth too...

[Beyond_Birthday]

Hey P. Molinero. If B_B flips scum, Looker gets autolynched. What's keeping you from switching?

The above, as P. Molinero pointed out, has is that Vi hasn't done anything to prove I'm scummy.

Vi: Hm...okay, that didn't work, let's try you!
[period of time]
This didn't work, so YOU'RE SCUM!
[another period of time]
Okay, okay, fine. That means YOUR SCUM!
[another period of time]
Okay, none of those worked, SO BB'S OBVIOUS SCUM! Can anyone find a reason that he isn't scum?

Okay, the key issue with his argument is that he didn't ask or consider the opposite question: Can anyone find a reason BB ISN'T town?

Well? What am I supposed to do if my play style is inherently scummy or if my general actions are considered "cautious?"

I didn't hammer looker because I'm not so certain he's scum. ANd even if I was, reckless all out assault play at lylo will NOT secure victory. As a town, we must be calm and logical. Vi, on the other hand, doesn't even care anymore. If he's town aligned, he's playing recklessly and and without even the slightest concern for the town. I, on the other hand, currently think Vi is scum. Whether in jest or not, Vi is kind of close to just buying votes from Looker and making deals with Pablo that, when I flip town, will never be fulfilled cause Vi will win.

So far, Vi has just attacked people relentlessly, and his lack of case against me is pathetic. The other person here who I would think to actual find issue with this, Zach, has recently posted like a lapdog to Vi, thus making him an exceptionally likely scum partner to Vi.

I'm sorry, I missed the part where Pablo tells us who he thinks the scum are.

Are there reasons for suspecting Vi? Are there reasons to believe Beyond is NOT scum?

Why do you refuse to consider Vi-scum a possibility?

Why do you refuse to consider BB is town? Do you realize that just because you can't find something that blantantly screams "I'm TOWN" in a person's play style that it doesn't necessarily condemn them to being scum, or are you so naive that you're actually going to follow Vi to your (death if your town, or victory if your scum.) Based on my opinion that you do, in fact, have a brain, I'd say the latter is far more likely. That, and you know my scum meta doesn't match my play here. You're mafia in my book too.

[Beyond_Birthday]

As a town, we must be calm and logical.

logical, sure. calm, really? Why do you feel town needs to be calm? I'd say non-calm town are the best because it throws scum off their game.

That, and you know my scum meta doesn't match my play here.

Like Vi said, if you say this, you know your scum meta, therefore can play another way when scum, therefore, it's no longer just your scum meta.

In theory, this is true. But then, that would be to say, all meta is irrelevant. However, he didn't say this. He said:

That, and you know my scum meta doesn't match my play here.

The moment you say this is the moment it loses all credibility~

Which gives me the feeling of: "Your not allowed to defend yourself that way."
Well why the hell not? If no one ELSE has done anything in my defense, I have to do the one thing that can defend me in this case and provide that as relevant information. I maybe a mere townie, but at lylo, even I cannot be lynched. Day 1, venial mislynch. Lylo, it is to lose. To say that a defense is any less valid JUST BECAUSE I brought it up is the dumbest most irrational idea a town aligned individual could conceive.

Had someone else presented my meta as a defense, then I could see how my clinging to it (not that I have aside from the fact play style is play style and should be considered thus irrlevent) is fairly scummy, but this is false. No one else thought of this. Zach, who played a very recent game with me=scum, should realize I don't play this way. Sure, it was "different," but even so, look at my town meta and see that the play style you accuse me for happened in that game too. If town, Vi is truly a simple minded fool. However, I think he's scum who manipulating the town into mislynching just ONE more time so he can coast to an easy victory.

@ Zach: your entire case is BS.

Also: ...Fuck...you do realize you could have lost us the game if your wrong.

On the other hand, the potential scum team I had lined up for Looker, Zach and Vi, is now completely unreasonable...

*Headdesk*

I just wanna know who scum is at this point. I guess we'll know whenever grimmy returns.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Actually, since it looks like Vi is coaching Zach, I'd assume Pablo is the other scum? It is also possible for Vi Pablo and has...

And then the other possibility is Looker is scum. Which, while I hope is true, I realize would result in town loss because then I would most likely be lynched. I suppose I conclude that town can't win from my perspective.

Fuck, I have to add my first town loss...damn...(And the mafia loss hit me pretty hard to...>.<)

[Beyond_Birthday]

Hrm. Things are not looking so hot for you, Beyond. Time to reread.

Things do not...

Hm... what really bothers me is the color yellow for Werewolves. Isn't it traditionally red for mafia (Werewolves) and yellow for third party? Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but ... here's what bothers me. If the werewolf were third party, that would leave a 3 person mafia team, who should have won. That means 2 anti town groups OR Grimmy's different with colors. *sigh* I might be reading too much into it. Either way, I think we can safely assume lylo again. (For the first time?)

Zach: Well, I didn't know what Looker would flip. I figured if he was scum, you might respond like: "I don't think so" or a similar statment (I know that "think so" is too obvious) that would indicate you were scum. The opposite might be true, to a lesser degree. I made that thinking "If Looker IS scum, I need to set up a kind of trap." I really doubted it would work,, and it didn't, but that's the reason for it.

Archon: Case?
And posting-lack of=/=Scum.

1. Except for my theory about the color yellow. It is NOT an opposite to red, so it doesn't make much sense without two scum teams. Or...Grimmy is REALLY FUCKING WEIRD.

However, he used the typical "blue" for town, I'd assume the "real" mafia is red... so either SK OR second mafia or second anti town group... Again, I may be reading too much into this, but it is my first reaction to something like this after reading other games.

[Beyond_Birthday]

However, he used the typical "blue" for town, I'd assume the "real" mafia is red... so either SK OR second mafia or second anti town group... Again, I may be reading too much into this, but it is my first reaction to something like this after reading other games.

This fails hard.

So the towns gather together and decides that our dear mayor Grimmy needs to die. However, since this is not a viable option at this time, they decide to turn their agressions on Looker.

and it is a good thing too, because at the sun was setting on the horizon, Looker appeared to be getting more agressive...angrier....and hairier?

The villagers quickly react in time to put this WEREWOLF down with a bunch of silver utensils they had lying around the main hall.

Somewhere, a howl of anger is heard, and the villagers know that this may be their worst night yet.

Looker- Werewolf- was lynched day 3

We have now enetered the Night phase, and all players with night actions should PM me as soon as possible to get the next day started. Day will begin next thursday at Noon, est.

grimmy

So did the real mafia HOWL in response to Looker getting lynched?

A HOWL! ONE! SINGULAR! Two mafia teams=2 people each, right? Unless its a sk lover with a town aligned lover or something... So, given this line of thought, what do you think?

1. I didn't miss that Looker was scum, I have no idea why you think that I did.

2. You didn't clear me, because the reasoning behind it is flawed. The way you're talking about my innocence like it's a certainty is really bothering me, because at this point, the only people I can see knowing for a fact that I'm innocent are scum.

...and here you flip back to super townie looking zach. I must admit, you're starting to piss me off.

Archon scum? Hm... I think the odds of Archon+Looker scum group are remarkably low. And I believe you agreed. (I'd have to check my facts. Will do later.) If you did, that means you agreed with my theory about two scum groups when I said it, and you just blundered by still suspecting Archon despite Looker flipping scum. That, or you think Looker isn't scum.

I will come back to this tomorrow, consider the logic, and I'll find the progression.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I thought Archon was scum yesterday, and it never depended on Looker's flip. Why do you think the odds of Archon + Looker scum are low?

I'd also like to know who you think the scum are please.

Ah. In that case, either Vi or myself said it. If me, I guess I'm just really hoping that it isn't true. Furthermore Zach, do you think anyone is more likely to be scum with Looker? Also, of the people lynched, if you DON'T think that there are two scum groups, do you think two person scum team OR an anti miller? If so, who is the likely anti-miller?

I just think in 12 people... hm... well, to me it seems virtually impossible, hence, I subscribed to the two man scum team. (I mentally eliminated two mafia groups (not cult or other anti town group), sk, and Vig reason for our existence since there hasn't been a two kill night.

What do you think?

[Beyond_Birthday]

And then the other possibility is Looker is scum. Which, while I hope is true, I realize would result in town loss because then I would most likely be lynched. I suppose I conclude that town can't win from my perspective.

Fuck, I have to add my first town loss...damn...(And the mafia loss hit me pretty hard to...>.<)

If it's *that* bad, why the hell would you say that instead of going out and trying to prevent that first town-loss?

I would imagine it has something to do with the fact I posted the above quoted AFTER Zach hammered. How the hell would I prevent the potential mishammer then!?

Because he's done nothing so far but throw out far fetched theories to (?) save himself, no scuhunting or deflection of attention. I'm not going to tell him what to do, but it's uncharacteristic to a player that seemed quite competent earlier. He defended looker on a double standard (voting for you instead) and pleaded to emotion near the end of yesterday.

Oh thanks. This really motivates me to help. Also, you fail to connect how scum would act in this particular manner. If scum were in *another* lylo situation, wouldn't it just be really likely that I, as scum, would do something to prove my innocence? Just saying that your failing at your follow through.

Archon: No, I always subscribe to considering crazy theories. Anyway, I am ready to move on to something much more interesting.

Looker (sipylus)
Trying to be objective:

Post 0: Meaningless
Post 1: JereIC, Nuwen, perAurdua (Hasdqfas), and Zachrulez are mentioned for posting littel content. Ectomancer (Saetal) is also mentioned for posting "content."
Looker:
Post 3: Attacks Setael and Zach as a possible scum team after asking my opinion and not receiving the answer he wanted.
Post 8: Uses a Vi-related reason to unvote.
Post 9: Votes Has
Post 10: Kind of gets angry at Vi for... ??? Unvotes.
Post 11: Spends most of his time mildly attacking Vi and defending himself frantically. Really scattered. Blames setael for making him do work to research Zach, which is odd generally because he wanted to attack Zach earlier. I am sad I didn't hammer this guy with how scummy he had been acting.

Anyway, his post generally get less coherent as the day went on. I think, however, a few points are interesting.

Just to be objective: Looker really never mentions much negatively about me. He also buddies up to me in Post 2 and 3 by asking my opinion on Setael and then changing his mind after getting my opinion. I know that he is buddying up to town here, but I can't prove it. Sorry.

However, here are some other people who send up flags:

Zachrules: Inversely to me, Looker constantly attacks Zach to the point of near harrassment. It is possible he was trying to make Zach look right as rain when he died. Archon even set that tone when the day started, and if I were a gambler (instead of a serial killer *name*), I'd bet Zachrules and Archon are scum with the deceased Looker. This assumes that Looker is their partner and despite tradition, the yellow color=mafia/werewolves as the name suggest. I guess I'm too by the book; it just bothers me.

Setael: Similar to Zach, Looker makes reference to Setael being a potential mafia member but fails to ever pin him down. This is interesting because it indicates one of three things:

One. Looker is scum with Setael and someone else. He skims the thread and finds something Ecto did as scummy. It may have been that since Sipylus mentioned Ecto for "content" on day 1 that Looker thought it would be necessary that, in taking over Sipylus' role, he continue this attack. This is a scum, I don't wanna read the game mind set, but ultimately tells us little about Setael.

Two. Including the above or NOT, Looker thought it best to to attack one of his own, Setael in this case, and a town aligned player, Zachrules. The theory that, Looker being as he is, attacked both of his own team mates, but I don't think Looker is that insane.

Three. Looker perceived Setael as being the towniest player and thought that if he were to create a statement pairing Setael and Zachrulez as scum in his "mind," that people might think Zach is town by association. In fact, when brought up, I felt the accusation was mildly ridiculous, as did a few others, and he asked my opinion, connecting me to both players as well. Since Looker is scum, it would make sense that he and his partner were getting involved with two town aligned players. Who that partner is is a little bit of a mystery, unless, of course, my theory is correct and that is to say Zach is scum.

Zach could be scum with the most unfortunate partners of all time, and it makes sense. I will admit that the Vi points in my direction, but Vi thought we were scum together for a reason, yet voted Looker. My bet is that Vi considered the above scenario (number 3), and that the common denominator between the four of us is that Looker started it, and was, therefore, the most likely scum. Combine this with Looker's general motive, and I think we can figure out how Vi might have considered the next few plays. I am assuming a bit on Vi since he can't/didn't mention it, but it makes sense to me.

Also:

Here, I'll put it in question form so it's harder to blow off. Why did you hammer before anyone had a chance to check the thread? Why did you not ask for a claim? Why did you not wait for looker even to check the thread and respond to being -1? What was the rush? And why did you ask vie's
permission like that?

I believe a townie in that situation (lylo; player that hasn't claimed or even talked much recently is at -1) would be more cautious and not nearly so impatient to hammer. You voted as though you knew he was scum and there was no chance you were wrong to be hammering. Maybe I'm sounding like a broken record but I think you saw no possibility of saving your wolf buddy so you hammered to gain town points.

What say you?

Well in this situation, this townie saw the fact that Looker was twice placed at lynch -1 and wasn't quick hammered, and ended up eventually seeing things from Vi's point of view about Looker unavoidably being scum if either me or Beyond Birthday were scum. (And Beyond Birthday was unwilling to hammer.)

Or, let me see:

I am town. I was unwilling to hammer because, well, let's face it. Only two things are 20-20 in this game, mafia vision and hindsight. I have neither, and I needed to think about what was happening and the case against Looker. While I can now look back and speculate on Vi's thought and potential clarity, I never had this thought process yesterday. However, you hammered knowing you could use this case to get me lynched today. The fact remains:

Lylo-1 scum, -1 townie=lylo.

You did what you had to do to ensure that today you would get a townie, me, lynched. Well, I won't allow it. Your scum partner is probably on my wagon already, isn't he? That's why you can't make the third vote on me, which would probably be the scummiest of them.

Vote Zachrulez

[Beyond_Birthday]

Also yeah... are you trying to say it's scummy that I'm actually not casting the 3rd vote because I know how scummy it would be... but now if I cast the 3rd vote on you, that will be scummy?

Ummm... yeah, I'm seeing a lot of bussing accusations against me, and very little effort to actually build a substantial case against me.

You and Setael are both guilty of this. You've started the day under the presumption that I bussed Looker and am scum trying to win town points, and you're basically making cases that are crappy in reality because they are really nothing more than a house of cards built on a preconceived conclusion.

I didn't presume this. It makes sense. I don't really know about Setael either, but I can't find, from my perspective, anything to pin on him aside from your (noted) accusation, but since I have the same feeling, well...I can't be objective on that point.

Zach: How is nolynching the best play? You just kind of bandwagoned that idea in a scummy way...

A question to pose to the town that *just* came to me (and rightly annoys the fuck out of me that I thoguht of this, making our lives harder): After finishing another game, there were only 2 mafia in a 12 person game, since the town only had a doc. We seem rather underpowered as a town, since everyone that have died so far has been vanilla, so... *sigh*... is there a possibility there is actually only 2 scum?

I suppose this is possible, but if that is true, would that mean we should take the time to lynch someone and risk it? I disagree with a nolynch personally since I see no help from it by using Vi's logic from yesterday. So, I am sticking with my vote...until I find a better person to vote... sometimes Zach seems like an obvious scum and then, as you noted about a few of his posts, he seems like obvious town. I'm thinking he's scum, but whatever.

Also: My opinion on colors isn't weird. I've never seen yellow as anything but neutral. It just bothers me. Could be my Aspergers based need for "rules" and "standards" biting me in the ass.

Nevermind with the scum count that was nagging at my mind. It wouldn't matter. The best play would still be to No Lynch today.

Well, actually, it it were a 2 man scum team from the start, and yellow=mafia, then we should lynch today. As that would mean only one scum. You could be right Pablo... I didn't think of it cause I don't have the experience, but if your correct, we should lynch someone today. To mimic the semi scummy statement by Zach, even if its me, lynching would be best if we really believed there was only one scum left.

However. Since I think Zach is scum, and his action makes the most sense under the assumption that there is a 3 man scum team, I am opposed to the two man mafia theory. I also fail to see how letting the mafia kill again is a good idea. (Or wolves, what the fuck ever.)

Any other ideas? Or is the town really dead set on a no lynch?

[Beyond_Birthday]

Scum list:

I am suggesting Zach and, since I believe in an initial 3 man scum team, Archon. Archon's defense of zach makes little sense and is just a blatant misconception on Archon's part. Also, Zach threw it off so quickly, he almost seemed paranoid about anyone clearing him. His reaction indicates, however, more that he's scum looking for townie brownies than Archon is necessarily scum. So, I would advocate lynching Zach first.

Also: I'm not inherently opposed to nolynch, but I think that we'll lose someone who isn't suspect and all be pointing fingers at each other. But, maybe you're right Pablo. I don't see any issues in your logic, so I'd be willing to follow, I suppose.

[Beyond_Birthday]

BB, let me explain for the umpteenth time;

I understand the misconception, but it doesn't excuse your actions, just gives one possible explanation. The other is you thought the town is stupid and you're scum, but whatever. Nice try/be more attentive town.

I'm glad someone recognized my point against nolynch. (Borrowed from Vi, as I had that same stupid idea yesterday.)

Pablo''s comment about "losing him" was "stupid for town to say," but his general recent play has reflected well on his possible role. Given that Killa 7 infinite lurks, I suppose some leniency could be given to others... if only slight...

But I will worry about that, hopefully, tomorrow. Right now, I'm forced on Zachrulez. Setael's case adds confidence to my own thoughts. Also, as Pablo pointed, he entertained the idea of nolynch. I feel fairly certain he instantly agreed with Vi yesterday on this, could have been appeal to authority? (Much more legitimate than appeal to emotion argument against me since EVERYONE uses appeal to emotion. It is almost alignment blind.)

Archon's post on having Pablo reread him:
What do you expect him to accomplish? I dunno why any one of any alignment would make this post... it has zero motivation, does nothing, makes you look scummy. Well, I suppose this just another reason to keep you in my Zach+Archon scum theory...

Hm... I don't trust Has too terribly much either. About as much as Archon, but Zachrulez is my common denominator...

Essentially, I'm trying to figure this out: Zach, Archon, Has, Pablo, and Satael.

If recent play holds true

Zach, Archon, Has.

If I picked one/two scum:
Zach

If I picked his partner, both of the others seem feasible.

If I picked one/one scum:
Archon/Zach

So, the likely scum pair is Zach/Archon in the remaining players. OR! Zach or Archon is the lone partner of the wolf. Since zach suggested this, I am slightly more suspicious of Zach. Archon doesn't hold any notable connection to Looker, in my mind, but I could be wrong.

I really hope pablo's reread is insightful, but I'm still leaning heavily on Zach.

Fixed the quote bracket. Vote count to follow
Grimmy

[Beyond_Birthday]

EBWOP: Archon, not BB, wrote.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Naturally, I disagree with a few point with Has, but I can agree with a majority of your statements about Zach, Has.

Also, I oft theorize about the setup. It may not be the most protown thing to do, but if I think I can delve into the setup, I will. I admit that my attempts to, occasionally, "outguess" the mod, might get annoying.

If you don't think we're both scum, why in the hell are you voting for one of us and then changing your mind?

Shouldn't you be trying to figure out which one of us is more likely to be town, and lynching the person you really think is more likely to be scum.

By the way, this doesn't qualify as reasoning me better.

"BB, however, is trying to confuse the town with all this setup speculation and such. I'm happy lynching either one of them, but right now, Zach seems like a better choice."

That's just you guessing, and your weak points are making excuses for changing your vote.

I submit that you don't really care about which one of us is REALLY more likely to be scum, I submit that you just want a particular lynch because it furthers your win condition.

I think you can say whoops in your mind now.

This post actually just hit me as scum trying to throw off the town for one mislynch.

Pablo, when you have time, any insight on Has' attack against Zach?

Has, do you think Zach and I could be scum together? I only ask because you're okay with etiher without commenting on a possible scum relationship. Since this idea is coming from someone who doesn't (shouldn't?) know any possible scum relation, it seems odd to not note an inverse (direct?) relation to our potential duel scumminess.

[Beyond_Birthday]

@BB

:

So right now, I could see Zach or BB as scum, but not together(if we started with three).

My bad, noted.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I see a few possibilities here:

1) zach and archon are scum. Archon has gotten quiet since getting called out for "clearing" zach and I can definitely see this possibility

2) beyond and hasd are the last 2 scums and they'd much rather get a mislynch today (zach is the current target) rather than no lynch.

3) a combination I'm not seeing (i.e. Pablo is fooling us all and his partner is any of the above). I'm not certain of anything enough to be willing to lynch today. Any way I slice it, I'd rather no lynch today and improve our odds for tomorrow.

vote: no lynch

You do realize that if you weren't scum, then having a no lynch does nothing but get you killed by your own theory.

Unvote; Vote Satael

[Beyond_Birthday]

EBWOP: For those who don't follow, I am voting Satael cause that post indicates that Satael has no fear for his own life despite the fact that, if he isn't scum, he is the one who would die, and would leave us in a worse position than we're in now. Since he is completely sold that we'll be better off, I think he is scum.

[Beyond_Birthday]

EBWOP: For those who don't follow, I am voting Satael cause that post indicates that Satael has no fear for his own life despite the fact that, if he isn't scum, he is the one who would die, and would leave us in a worse position than we're in now. Since he is completely sold that we'll be better off, I think he is scum.

First of all, Setael with an "e". Also, her. And she.

Second, I see your point but it's weak. Sure, the player that is the lowest on most people's scum lists might be NK'd if we no lynch. But there's also the chance that the 2 remaining scum are a combination no one has thought of. Let's say, just to prove that your point is weak, that pablo and I were the last 2 scum. We no lynch and neither of us dies (because we're scum) and one of the 4 that are higher on people's scum lists is NK'd. Voila. Our odds of mislynching goes way down.

There's another possibility, too. Pablo and I are both town but aren't NK'd because the scum want to WIFOM the town into thinking we are. In that case, once again, one of the 4 higher on people's scum lists would be lynched and ONCE AGAIN we're better off.

We don't know what the scum will do, which makes no lynch still the smartest choice.

Hm... well defended...just your post is odd and I strongly disagree with your vote to no lynch logic.

Also, I agree with pablo on the no lynch, obviously. However, it is crystal clear to me that lynching me is a bad idea.

Have you forgotten that scum do not, necessarily, buddy up to scum. Maybe Looker buddies up to town as scum. We need a meta check to see which idea Looker typically goes by.

[Beyond_Birthday]

An even better question for archon: And nothing to say about hasd?

...indeed. I'm going to see if I can find a looker-mafia game. See who he buddies up to in a quick meta check. I apologize for not having time to do this sooner.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Looker's first vote (unexplained of course) of the game... is for his partner, who had virtually no suspicion on him at the time. He doesn't buddy up to Hohum and the game ended shortly. The only obvious conclusion I can ascertain from this is that he doesn't buddy up to anyone for any particular reason. Had he voted Caboose, he could have justified it and had a much better chance of winning. (He won anyway due to deadline.)

This conclusion only has this one game as reference, but from his town games (must I go into them...shudder*) are about as good as Zero the Hero. My thought process is that we can't use "he buddied up to X" or "He didn't say anything about Y" or etc arguments to justify our attacking others. His play shows no signs of this, and in fact, he voted his partner in the above game without any reason, so if he found my play townie from some twisted, backward logic he has going for him.

I conclude: No idea. Ask him after this games over.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Obvious:

Zach
Archon
Has(?)
Pablo/Setael (Just because I am town and I know lynching me is losing.)
BB

[Beyond_Birthday]

@beyond - I'd certainly like an explanation for your scumlist as well. If I'm back to lowest why didn't you unvote? And if your only reason for voting me is my support of a no lynch, why didn't you vote zach for the same reason since he's higher on your scum list?

To be honest: I didn't unvote?

And no one agreed with my opinion. It was minor and I can see a town member making that same error when posting too quickly.

Unvote

*Checks* I really didn't...I thought I did in post 965, but humans are prone to mistakes like that.

[Beyond_Birthday]

I highly doubt the town will win with a nolynch.

Hm... Zach, since nothing is being adressed to me, but despite the contexts obvious point it is meant for Set, I'm going to answer your question on Pablo.

For me, Pablo's uber lurky play most of the game was exceptionally scummy. While he isn't cleared, and is less, hm... shall we say... stable? in terms of looking town than Set, I feel his play and response to pressure is fairly pro-town. I just don't quite like his argument for lynch.

Set's play, on the other hand, leaves me a bit less reassured than Ecto's, so his scumminess has slightly increased over the past two days, but only so much so as to be noticable. Given Has' lurking, Archon's randomness, and you, I probably wouldn't lynch Pablo or Set at the moment.
Hm...
Should we take a "vote" on who's willing to nolynch/lynch? Maybe the arguments are equal and we should put this topic aside so we can focus on finding the remaing scum.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Well obviously, Setael, myself, and Archon are willing to no lynch.

I think you should hammer no lynch.

I don't understand at all with how uncertain you seem to be on everyone and the fact that everyone is pretty much a suspect for you (Casting aside how scummy I find that in and of itself.) how you can possibly oppose a no lynch.

Having one of us eliminated as a suspect certainly helps your uncertainty, and I don't see how you can justify lynching in a situation where we lose if we get it wrong, especially with the fact that eliminating a suspect in the face of all the uncertainty you seem to be experiencing can do nothing but help your scumhunting.

I just don't get why you're so adamantly against no lynching.

uncertainty? First, I made the argument you're presenting now yesterday.

Second, I'm fairly convinced your scum. I'm uncertain on Has who hasn't said anything worth noting (for the most part), and no lynching won't change that. If Pablo or Setael dies, yes we know their alignment, but we generally gain nothing in terms of those who actually have suspicion. If Mafia do, by some miracle, kill you, myself, Has or Archon, in spite of the overwhelming evidence against us, then we're in a total wifom situation where everyone alive might suspect the two "most townie" and enter a false townie situation, or they'll kill someone convenient for another player to ensure mislynch.

We're at a critical point in this game, and a no lynch is, at least from my perspective, the wrong play.

[Beyond_Birthday]

Or posting something game relevant Archon. God forbid you do something like that...

[Beyond_Birthday]

I thought about voting Zach or maybe arch or beyond or even hasd. So I'm sticking with no lynch.

Setael, do you really think any of them would die tonight if we voted no lynch? That just means mafia, unless your mafia (and/or Pablo?) pick off one of you two, and now the choice is harder left entirely up to bickering, overaggressive hands. (I think Zach and I are almost equally aggressive, has is very passive, but something to bicker over, much like Archon who is more annoying than aggressive.)

So, that just leaves -1 person to safety net us from oblivion.
If, by the way, Pablo is scum, and you die, then while this is no long your problem anymore, that means Pablo, who has enough influence over the town, could definitely get a mislynch by attacking any of us, and it is almost guaranteed his scum partner and just one other townie would join. This is, mathematically, a terrible idea.

(The above also applies if Pablo is killed, names chosen in the above manner to make a point to Setael.)

Right now, we're perfect because given every scenario, I don't think scum have a particular advantage. Let's assume scum versus town ratio were "2 people" are Pablo and Setael and "4 people" is everyone else.
Hypothetically, if:
2 people Scum
4 people ???

This is the only worrisome scenario. If this is the case, a no lynch would be best since after:

2 people scum
3 people ???

There is a slightly higher chance the town will think something is up and attack these two people.

If:
2 people 1 scum
4 people ????
Then, that means we have at least 1 town aligned infuential "townie" person. No lynch is a sub-optimal play?

If:
2 people Town
4 people 2 scum

Then obviously no lynching is a terrible play.

Gotta go though, so post more later.

[Beyond_Birthday]

First off:
Grimmy: funny.

Second: since my opinion hasn't been refuted, I must ask:

Zach, how do you defend your vote to nolynch still?

Also, I personally prefer a Zach lynch, so I'm not going to be voting Archon. I suppose I see your point, but I feel Archon is more unhelpful than scummy...

(And attacking Archon is like attacking pudding, so whatever.)

[Beyond_Birthday]

unvote; Vote Archon

I agree with Pablo that he is the crux of the matter, and since he makes the most sense as scum with Zach, and I suspect Zach, see my vote. I just hope I haven't screwed this up. Sorry in advance.

[Beyond_Birthday]

unvote; vote archon

Ebwop

[Beyond_Birthday]

"rational" town's the key there. I'm a psychopath, a mass murder, the cause of the infamous LABB murder case. You really have to ask why I would consider that?

Look, Grimmy's weird, not psycho. I TOLD you when that guy flipped YELLOW that he wasn't the mafia group, which meant some sort of SK+mafia or two scum groups.

Isn't that obvious? Based on the day now, I think my two scum group theory is now proven correct, which means the make up of the town is 1 scum, 1 scum, 1 town.


I know I am town, which means you two are scum of different teams. I'm not voting with either of you, so my logical option is to vote nolynch and enter game theory...but I'm only 62% sure there are two scum groups...

so...

who wants to convince me there town?

[Beyond_Birthday]

...

Are you trying to get me to think YOU'RE the town with me? Cause, you're not doing a very good job.

[Beyond_Birthday]

*Shrugs* Oh well. I figured Pablo deserved the win over Has, which is the primary reason I decided to kill has.