Unbalanced mafia games

This forum is for discussion related to the game.

Would you consider playing in a mafia game that was unbalanced but was not wieghted in either scum or towns direction?

Poll ended at Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:08 am

Yes
13
42%
No
5
16%
Depends on theme
13
42%
 
Total votes: 31

User avatar
roffman
roffman
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
roffman
Goon
Goon
Posts: 853
Joined: November 11, 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Unbalanced mafia games

Post Post #0 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:08 am

Post by roffman »

I'm currently creating a themed mafia game where, do to it's nature, balance is nearly impossible to achieve. This is not to say the game is wieghted to scum or town, merely that a sequence of choices could resut in day 2/3 endgaming and the game is more about experimenting a new design area and scum hunting than powerroles.

I'm just wondering a few things about the viability of running this game, namely whether it will get enough interest to even bother to post in the queue. The game won't be ready for running for probably a few weeks, but if people are even vaguely interested and would consider playing in it, could you just vote yes here just so I can gauge whether or not it will work, or whether or not to run it as a mini or a normal.

On a related issue, if I do start the game, should I post it in the theme queues and state it is not balanced, or should I start a seperate sign up area for it? Any information regarding this would be appreciated.
Town - 3/5
Mafia - 1/4
Other - 1/1
User avatar
JDodge
JDodge
Accept it
User avatar
User avatar
JDodge
Accept it
Accept it
Posts: 5926
Joined: May 6, 2005
Location: Atop my cloud
Contact:

Post Post #1 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:23 am

Post by JDodge »

If it's not weighted in either the scum or town direction, then it is by definition "balanced".

You're looking for "swingy", which is down the hall and to the left.
stream

ffxiv/speedrunning sometimes/other things?
User avatar
roffman
roffman
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
roffman
Goon
Goon
Posts: 853
Joined: November 11, 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post Post #2 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:44 am

Post by roffman »

Ok then, it's a very swingy game. Is there an accepted etiquette for running one of those?
Town - 3/5
Mafia - 1/4
Other - 1/1
User avatar
Elmo
Elmo
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Elmo
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 3047
Joined: September 7, 2007
Location: happy

Post Post #3 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:58 am

Post by Elmo »

I personally don't mind playing swingy (or indeed, unbalanced) games as long as I know about it up front. I generally assume that the mod thinks a setup is balanced and non-swingy unless they say otherwise, so I think you should explicitly notify players and make sure they understand what's going on when they're signing up. I don't know of any established etiquette, though.
Succinctness is pro-town.

Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford
User avatar
Gamma
Gamma
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Gamma
Goon
Goon
Posts: 332
Joined: January 4, 2008
Location: Benched, along with patience and reason

Post Post #4 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:08 am

Post by Gamma »

Open game, I guess.
V/LA until I get a new computer
User avatar
Jahudo
Jahudo
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Jahudo
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 4150
Joined: June 30, 2008
Location: Cleveland, OH

Post Post #5 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:09 am

Post by Jahudo »

roffman wrote:...merely that a sequence of choices could resut in day 2/3 endgaming and the game is more about experimenting a new design area and scum hunting than powerroles.
Not sure what the "new design area" pertains to, but I don't like the idea of day 2 endgame. It sounds too soon to end because A) the day could be over fast (~10 pages) and not much of a game would have taken place or B) the day could stretch to 30+ pages and you'd feel cheated if you spent alot of time analyzing the game.
CarnCarn
CarnCarn
Mafia Scum
CarnCarn
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1153
Joined: September 27, 2008

Post Post #6 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:22 am

Post by CarnCarn »

Jahudo wrote:
roffman wrote:...merely that a sequence of choices could resut in day 2/3 endgaming and the game is more about experimenting a new design area and scum hunting than powerroles.
Not sure what the "new design area" pertains to, but I don't like the idea of day 2 endgame. It sounds too soon to end because A) the day could be over fast (~10 pages) and not much of a game would have taken place or B) the day could stretch to 30+ pages and you'd feel cheated if you spent alot of time analyzing the game.
Small open games (read: ~7 players) can start out at LyLo-1, leading to Day 2/3 endgaming. However, people signing up such games usually know this (or can deduce this) beforehand.

This doesn't sound like an open game, though, and it sounds like the mod doesn't want to make it an open game because of certain mechanics that probably need to stay hidden. In which case, I agree with your points.
User avatar
Fiasco
Fiasco
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Fiasco
Goon
Goon
Posts: 834
Joined: September 21, 2005

Post Post #7 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:32 am

Post by Fiasco »

I think it would be a good thing if mafia games were less anticlimactic, with more deaths and revelations at the end instead of a half-hearted discussion between the replacements for the replacements for the replacements for the game's least controversial players.
"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken." - Oliver Cromwell
User avatar
mith
mith
Godfather
User avatar
User avatar
mith
Godfather
Godfather
Posts: 9267
Joined: March 27, 2002
Location: McKinney, TX
Happy Scumday!
Contact:

Post Post #8 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:47 am

Post by mith »

Swingy games are perfectly acceptable, though as has been suggested it might be a good idea to advertise it as such, so the players know what they're getting into.

[sidetopic]Fiasco: Perhaps we should try balancing a game where the win conditions are "The Mafia win if they are a third of the town" and "The Town wins if there is only one Mafia remaining".[/sidetopic]
User avatar
Fiasco
Fiasco
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Fiasco
Goon
Goon
Posts: 834
Joined: September 21, 2005

Post Post #9 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:34 am

Post by Fiasco »

[sidetopic]I love that idea. A standard 12 player setup with only the win condition changed wouldn't be too far off balance, I think.[/sidetopic]
"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken." - Oliver Cromwell
User avatar
Xdaamno
Xdaamno
I love you
User avatar
User avatar
Xdaamno
I love you
I love you
Posts: 3354
Joined: April 10, 2007
Location: 0, 0, 0

Post Post #10 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:50 am

Post by Xdaamno »

Swinginess is bad. It's not unacceptable, but it's a good idea to avoid it.
"This should be an absolute car crash, but let's try it." - CDB
"did you get ces to look disgusted by their offer? i thought that might work" - Patrick
Cracking Idea Mafia
User avatar
Mr. Flay
Mr. Flay
Metatron
User avatar
User avatar
Mr. Flay
Metatron
Metatron
Posts: 24969
Joined: March 12, 2004
Location: Gormenghast
Contact:

Post Post #11 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:15 pm

Post by Mr. Flay »

How many players, roffman? D3 endgame is acceptable with 7 players, not so much with 17.
Retired as of October 2014.
User avatar
Yosarian2
Yosarian2
(shrug)
User avatar
User avatar
Yosarian2
(shrug)
(shrug)
Posts: 16394
Joined: March 28, 2005
Location: New Jersey

Post Post #12 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:50 pm

Post by Yosarian2 »

Well, note he said a day 2 or 3 engame was "possible"; if you have a game with a lot of scum groups, or a lot of potential nightkills, or whatever, early endgames are often possible, and that's not necessarally a bad thing.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
User avatar
Adel
Adel
Crystalline Logick
User avatar
User avatar
Adel
Crystalline Logick
Crystalline Logick
Posts: 6743
Joined: May 23, 2007
Location: Central Oregon / High Desert

Post Post #13 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:04 pm

Post by Adel »

The distaste of players for random outcomes seems to be directly proportional to the amount of time they have committed to the game.
From an abstract game design POV, the best kind of swingy starts out high, and decreases with time. Limited-shot power role abilities is one way to add that quality to your game.
User avatar
JDodge
JDodge
Accept it
User avatar
User avatar
JDodge
Accept it
Accept it
Posts: 5926
Joined: May 6, 2005
Location: Atop my cloud
Contact:

Post Post #14 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 2:46 pm

Post by JDodge »

Xdaamno wrote:Swinginess is bad. It's not unacceptable, but it's a good idea to avoid it.
Setup design is an abstract. It is impossible to call any one quality of it "bad".
stream

ffxiv/speedrunning sometimes/other things?
User avatar
Claus
Claus
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
Claus
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 1734
Joined: June 1, 2007
Location: Tsukuba
Contact:

Post Post #15 (ISO) » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:36 pm

Post by Claus »

Jahudo wrote:A) the day could be over fast (~10 pages)
??? 10 pages is not a fast day! :-/


While I agree with Adel - swingness is worse if you spend more time into the game - if the game lasts for long enough that you start to care about it that much, it is not swingy anymore (or at least its swingness potential did not come to realize itself).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVVmAG0RXmo
User avatar
Xdaamno
Xdaamno
I love you
User avatar
User avatar
Xdaamno
I love you
I love you
Posts: 3354
Joined: April 10, 2007
Location: 0, 0, 0

Post Post #16 (ISO) » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:54 am

Post by Xdaamno »

JDodge wrote:
Xdaamno wrote:Swinginess is bad. It's not unacceptable, but it's a good idea to avoid it.
Setup design is an abstract. It is impossible to call any one quality of it "bad".
I'm using the word "bad" in the same sense as it would be used to describe the cop-doc combo.

I'm also using the word swinginess not to mean 'powerful roles' in general, but as in the amount that the game is likely to disbalance itself as it goes on, generally due to pseudo-random factors. For example, having all the town being vanilla except from one extremely powerful role is swingy, because that role could be killed pseudo-randomly leaving the game much less balanced from that point on.
"This should be an absolute car crash, but let's try it." - CDB
"did you get ces to look disgusted by their offer? i thought that might work" - Patrick
Cracking Idea Mafia
User avatar
PokerFace
PokerFace
Too Useful
User avatar
User avatar
PokerFace
Too Useful
Too Useful
Posts: 6231
Joined: July 20, 2007
Location: Ohio, USA
Contact:

Post Post #17 (ISO) » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:09 am

Post by PokerFace »

I like swingy games. Don't like unbalanced games too much unless its a bastard mod game where that would be expected.

I'd join depending on the theme and my current level of time I could devote to the game.
When I joined this site, I was a software tester for mobile business applications and the song PokerFace was not yet written by Lady Gaga
Now I test lottery and gambling software as my job. It's funny how my life has turned out. Somewhere a Time Traveler is laughing madly
User avatar
JDodge
JDodge
Accept it
User avatar
User avatar
JDodge
Accept it
Accept it
Posts: 5926
Joined: May 6, 2005
Location: Atop my cloud
Contact:

Post Post #18 (ISO) » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:24 pm

Post by JDodge »

Xdaamno wrote:
JDodge wrote:
Xdaamno wrote:Swinginess is bad. It's not unacceptable, but it's a good idea to avoid it.
Setup design is an abstract. It is impossible to call any one quality of it "bad".
I'm using the word "bad" in the same sense as it would be used to describe the cop-doc combo.

I'm also using the word swinginess not to mean 'powerful roles' in general, but as in the amount that the game is likely to disbalance itself as it goes on, generally due to pseudo-random factors. For example, having all the town being vanilla except from one extremely powerful role is swingy, because that role could be killed pseudo-randomly leaving the game much less balanced from that point on.
How is bad any less relative there?
stream

ffxiv/speedrunning sometimes/other things?
User avatar
Xylthixlm
Xylthixlm
!xmafia win
User avatar
User avatar
Xylthixlm
!xmafia win
!xmafia win
Posts: 5414
Joined: July 12, 2006

Post Post #19 (ISO) » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:07 pm

Post by Xylthixlm »

Yosarian2 wrote:Well, note he said a day 2 or 3 engame was "possible"; if you have a game with a lot of scum groups, or a lot of potential nightkills, or whatever, early endgames are often possible, and that's not necessarally a bad thing.
On the other hand, if you start day 2 of a mini with over half the players dead, you might have screwed up your setup design a bit.
#mafia@irc.globalgamers.net

"Xyl was completely berserk" -dramonic
"Xyl's ruthless policy lynching won the game." -Vi
User avatar
Adel
Adel
Crystalline Logick
User avatar
User avatar
Adel
Crystalline Logick
Crystalline Logick
Posts: 6743
Joined: May 23, 2007
Location: Central Oregon / High Desert

Post Post #20 (ISO) » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:12 pm

Post by Adel »

User avatar
CF Riot
CF Riot
Mafia Scum
User avatar
User avatar
CF Riot
Mafia Scum
Mafia Scum
Posts: 2444
Joined: June 5, 2008
Location: Oklahoma

Post Post #21 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:37 am

Post by CF Riot »

Fiasco wrote:I think it would be a good thing if mafia games were less anticlimactic, with more deaths and revelations at the end
What do you think of roles that increase in power with time? Give a role who is allowed to:
  • Track one person each night if at least 1 townie is dead.
    Roleblock one person each night if at least 4 townies are dead.
    Kill or protect one person each night if at least 7 townies are dead.
Add the disclaimer that only 1 ability may be used in a single night. It would be better suited for large games, and the actual numbers would need to vary depending on the total number of players and how many killing roles you had. It helps balance itself in that the power of the role increases as the town becomes weaker, but does not increase in the event that a mafia or 3rd party is lynched/killed. Therefore if the town is doing really well, their power doesn't increase as quickly. You could also reword the role to "if at least (X) townies are
lynched
," to further this dynamic.
User avatar
shaft.ed
shaft.ed
dem.agogue
User avatar
User avatar
shaft.ed
dem.agogue
dem.agogue
Posts: 4998
Joined: August 15, 2007
Location: St. Louis

Post Post #22 (ISO) » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:23 am

Post by shaft.ed »

But there was ressurection.
User avatar
roffman
roffman
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
roffman
Goon
Goon
Posts: 853
Joined: November 11, 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Post Post #23 (ISO) » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:30 am

Post by roffman »

Been in transit for a couple of days and want to clarify some things. The game i'm planning scales to as many players as you need, the main thing i was concerned about is stacking of power roles night actions. For example, in a 12 person setup, it is possible for scum to get 4 kills in night one, and 4 other random people dieing. This would only occur if 10 of the 11 people made a mis-target, including the scum, so i considered it highly unlikely.
Town - 3/5
Mafia - 1/4
Other - 1/1
User avatar
Vel-Rahn Koon
Vel-Rahn Koon
Virginia's Trump
User avatar
User avatar
Vel-Rahn Koon
Virginia's Trump
Virginia's Trump
Posts: 6189
Joined: March 1, 2007
Location: Catawba College

Post Post #24 (ISO) » Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:45 am

Post by Vel-Rahn Koon »

That sounds really excessive, but then it could be fun. It would have to be a day start to give the town some sort of chance, because opening the game and saying "ok, you 10 are dead, you other 4, you've got 6 weeks to lynch the last scum" is just...well...retarded.

I think you have to tell everyone in advance that it has the potential for this kind of swinginess.
The Newbie Queue ALWAYS needs ICs and Mods!


Are you willing to help out? Check the Queue title to see what roles we need filled!
Post Reply

Return to “Mafia Discussion”