Why did newbie games end?

[the worst]

I'm not a mod on the mafia side so really just talking through what I've seen as a user.

Newbie games used to be amazing, when forums were more popular and there was a fair bit of interest. They started to dry up, the queues got slower, and I rrally suspect a lot more newbies ended up flaking out because it just seemed like games weren't firing. The last kinda like, 6 months or year of the newbie queue was much less of a vibe and it didn't feel as fit for purpose anymore.

There's totally still a place for games for new players! They still pop up & seem popular. Thing is, I think the best way to enjoy a community like this is to find your people here - invite folks you like playing with to games, seek out other players who seem to be around your experience level, stuff like that. Newbie games did do part of this for us, but nothing compares to forming connections with players from your generation organically.

Ythan's point is salient. Social games are hard by nature, because they're about connecting with people socially. Mafia adds fuel to the fire, because trying to stop you from successfully connecting with others is a really viable strategy for maintaining control over a game. It's worth remembering that sometimes it's nothing to do with you, and nothing to do with toxicity - it could be a tactic. It could also be a misunderstanding or lack of awareness of your style! It's so hard to point to just one thing.

Some older players will, forever, look down on less experienced players. I do think most of us are decent, or at least that the majority are kind. It occurs to me as I type this that I'm not that friendly or approachable in games anymore - it's not elitism or coldness, I've just come to manifest a more independent persona because I think it helps me enjoy the game more. Maybe that's what happens with experience, like, confidence and familiarity moreso than elitism. It can be socially exhausting to try and connect with every single player, so sometimes I just kinda go "OK noted" and leave them in a box for later. Sometimes I won't know how to read people and don't sense an in-road to get a read on them so I'll just ignore them and lazily wagon them & try to solve them later. This stuff is really idiosyncratic, I guess, and players who've played for a long time develop idiosyncrasies.

Some other neat tricks that can help:
- if someone isn't engaging with you, try talking to them about something they're pursuing actively (e.g. their weird vote, their favourite pet read, what their take is on a player they seem to be struggling with, etc.).
- real time interactions!! they're amazing. for real. if someone is right there and you talk to them they'll often feel compelled to try and talk back. shorter posts & a more conversational tone can help with this.
- if someone is particularly egregiously blocking you out, vote them or call them out!! that can be a great move for both advancing the game, and for helping you to work through a perceived slight



tl;dr- newbie games died a fairly natural death fmpov (and it's really unfortunate). sometimes people are cold in mafia games. this can be tactical malice, or it can be a personality quirk. in my experience it's rarely due to disdain or elitism. if it is, those people stink. sometimes changing your perspective or calling them to change theirs can help with personality disconnect.

[the worst]

Seems like the consensus is that new players have to conform to make the community accept them. Can’t say that’s going to be the best policy if you want to gain a newer player base at any point in the future.

And I disagree wholeheartedly that these actions aren’t due to elitism. But we are all allowed to have our opinions. Mine just happens to be coming from first hand experiences over the past month.

Sorry to be blunt, but I don't think this is a charitable interpretation of my post. Conformity isn't great, but part of getting into the flow of playing mafia is finding that sweet spot where your style gels with the people you're playing with.

That's true for all communities, and sometimes different game by game. It's just part of the challenge of playing social games I think.

[the worst]

All the suggestions here seem to be what new players can do to help themselves be more accepted and comfortable instead of looking at how the current players treat new players in these games.

I think this is a valid impression to have, though the degree of reach out and acceptance of new players can vary a lot depending on the player list.

I'm always happy to run a newbie setup if someone requests it, and as a mod will indicate the game is expected to be newbie friendly. I think as more time goes by since the Newbie Queue existed members may not remember the expectations for newbie friendliness.

This is true too (and sorry if my previous response was a bit short). There's definitely a middle ground between newbie-friendliness and finding ways to meet people in the middle.

I really can't stress enough that part of mafia is learning ways to work through these disconnects though.

[the worst]

Yes but you’re putting the onus entirely on new players with your perspective. It shouldn’t be our job to capitulate to more seasoned players and their unfair treatment because it’s a social game. I’m happy to meet in the middle of the other side were willing but in my limited experience here, that’s not likely to happen. The reliance on meta is crippling.

I can't overstate how toxic I find elitism. Just, like, in any social situation it's very hard to change other people's behaviours. Learning tactics for relating to each other is part of the process, and (perhaps annoyingly sometimes) learning is a big part of being a newbie.

Sorry if my response comes across as implying that this is a "you problem" or anything like that. I was more coming from a perspective of "this is why the newbie queue died, and here are some possible ways to work around that". I do think it's really vital that folks meet each other half way.

When I'm more settled I'd also run some newbie-friendlier games.

All the suggestions here seem to be what new players can do to help themselves be more accepted and comfortable instead of looking at how the current players treat new players in these games.

easier to change yourself than others

this is the one-sentence version of what I wanted to say but I think it's more nuanced than that

[the worst]

The reliance on meta is crippling.

“Meta” (which is used incorrectly most of the time because people like having very low sample size of games played together and call that meta) is an unfortunate side effect of mafia games in general and people tend to rely on it because having something to reference when reading someone is easier than just trying to read someone blindly. It’s like taking an exam with or without notes. So you will never see people not relying on meta, not just in this site, but in any site.

+1, preach. meta is antithetical to having fun.

I don't really think reintroducing a newbie game to play in would resolve the problems you listed out. But hope you find a game you can enjoy

you know, perhaps ironically, i think running newbie games outside the newbie queue is a better way to address this than the newbie queue. i think it's a more conscious effort to /in to a newbie-friendly open game than it used to be to /in to the newbie queue. maybe this is a me thing.