US Election 08 Mafia(Someone has won, has America lost?)

[Nikelaos]

Confirming

[Nikelaos]

Vote Idiotking

Wouldn't want to deal with any idiots in this game, especially the king of them.

[Nikelaos]

unvote

I don't like the bandwagon on Natirasha forming at this point in time. Though he seems pretty useless to the town, that SK claim was probably just a joke. As has been mentioned I feel he could be an easy vig target later on, and it's best not to waste our lynch on someone just because we think he's a useless player. It also gives scum an easy wagon to jump on without gaining too much suspicion, and if he's town it'll put us in an easily avoidable hole.

I'll hold off my vote until further discussion.

[Nikelaos]

It addition, I feel the jester possibility should be a non-factor in this decision. It's highly unlikely that there will be one, and jester wins really shouldn't be a part of any real mafia game. I know that sounds contrary to my opinion as to how to deal with Nat, but it's just my two cents on the topic.

[Nikelaos]

In addition, if you get lynched for claiming SK, you won't survive to the Day 3 game that you enjoy so much, so why do it?

[Nikelaos]

Lynching SK < Lynching scum. Sure, in a game with no vig then you

do

eventually have to lynch the SK if you don't get lucky and have the scum kill it. However, as a D1 play where we do not know if there is a vig in existence, an SK lynch should be put on the back burner in favor of a scum lynch.

Essentially, scum lynch is optimal play each day. SK lynch is suboptimal but still useful.

If we knew for sure that we would be lynching scum, then yes, it would be preferable to lynch scum over the SK, but this would only be valid if we knew each player's alignment. In this case, we have no evidence that Nat is the SK aside from what's probably a joke claim; he could just as easily be town or scum. More likely, actually, when you consider the fact that there is generally only one SK and multiple scum and town. Add this to the rather obvious fact that we have no evidence that whoever else we lynch will be scum, especially D1. This argument is kind of invalid.

However, I still cannot support a Nat lynch right now with this little evidence. If we are unlucky and he flips town we will not get any information regarding the alignments of the players who voted (or did not vote) for him. Lynching him on principle is a simple, effective argument for scum who voted for him. Lynching someone else will give us information regarding alignments of those who did or did not vote for him, whether or not he is scum. In addition, putting pressure on Nat is seemingly useless. He does not take the pressure votes too seriously and any mistakes he makes can be chalked up to his erratic behavior. If we focus our pressure elsewhere we can gain more information from other players who have gotten a free ride so far thanks to Nat's poor play.

At least for now, we should direct our attention to those who we want to hear more from. I'm going to

vote: Badguy

right now. Unless I've missed something, he's only posted once since the day began and it was a joke vote on page four, when serious discussion had begun to take place. In any case I'd like to hear more from him.

[Nikelaos]

Badguy's nameclaim was a bit suspicious, so I'll keep my vote on him, for now at least.

FOS: Vi

for blatantly dodging any suspicions on him. I know we have little evidence to go on right now, and most suspicions have little weight, but when someone questions you and you say that it's "little cause for concern," it just sounds a bit scummy.

[Nikelaos]

Alright, I may have jumped the gun a tad but really, it doesn't give away much information. A mass name claim would give us something to talk about and I can't see it being bad for the town unless people take their names to seriously. Some were for it, some where on the fence and some(you and Yosarian2) were against it.

Opinions on the name claim were hardly neutral; there was a definite leaning against it from my perspective, and there were very few supporters. But ignoring that, why would we want to talk about the name claim if we weren't supposed to take it seriously? It would be wasted discussion if the names are meaningless. Your argument is contradictory and a bit suspicious, truthfully.

[Nikelaos]

Alright, here's more from me

Here's an idea to test Nat: Since Vi is acting suspicious (per my and Nikelaos' reasons), we lynch Vi D1. If it turns out that Vi was a townie, either/both the cop and the vig investigate/kill Nat. Either way, we lynch a suspicious player and find out how trustworthy the second most suspicious player is. Then we can bandwagon Badguy.

I'll start out by saying I don't endorse this post at all. I only made one post regarding Vi, and it was only to declare minor suspicions. As has been stated already, zwet's posts, especially this one, have been particularly scummy. Directing the town like this is extremely suspicious, especially considering how ridiculous his plans are. Why we would want both the vig and cop to target Nat? I have no idea. I certainly never wanted to lynch Vi, in fact it was pretty clear I was focusing on Badguy, who I still think we should pressure, but if we lynch zwet and he flips scum, we can give him some more lenience on D2. I won't switch my vote to zwet right now, he's already (apparently) got six votes on him. I fully support a zwet lynch if it comes down to that, but I'm not going to hop on the wagon immediately. I also feel Badguy may have jumped on zwet to take the pressure off of himself, so I'm going to keep my vote on him.

[Nikelaos]

I'm not sure what to say about zwet's claim that hasn't already been said. It's a bit unbelievable, but I don't think we should lynch him. I'll

unvote: Badguy

for looking pro-town recently, but I'm still not so sure on him.

Going back a ways...

(shrug) Either I know why it is happening, or I don't, and either way I don't see any advantage to me saying so today, one way or the other. Do you disagree?

I personally think it does matter if you know what's happening. If your votes actually do count but just aren't shown on the vote count, it's definitely possible someone could lynch a player accidentally when they think the players going to be L-1. If not and your role's more complicated, then I guess it doesn't matter if you say or not, but it's best to at least try to tell us if your votes officially count or not. But, assuming everyone's careful, it shouldn't make a difference, so if telling your role would hurt the town, I guess there's no point in doing it.

[Nikelaos]

Nikelaos:
Still would like to know you think suspicious, but also, what specifically did Badguy do to seem protown to you?

Badguy wrote:
Finally zwetschenwasser, can you please give me a more detailed reason to why you are voting for Vi? Could you also tell me how a cop would go about leaving us "breadcrumbs" to Nat's innocence if he was to investigate him tonight without getting killed the following night?

Since you completely changed your mind and you now think Vi is pro town, tell me who now this is scum besides Nat.

zwetschenwasser wrote:
Also, my cop posts were mainly intended to misdirect mafia into thinking that I wasn't the cop, and stay alive at least for Night 1. And I was bandwagoning into the vig idea proposed earlier at the same time, to give my opinion a less random vibe. I can only hope you believe me and give me a doc protect, cuz I'm gonna need it if you don't kill me.

What reason did scum have to think you were a cop?

In particular I felt this post to have a town vibe, enough for me to unvote a vote I made based off of a weak argument regarding his nameclaim. His subsequent defense of zwet based on his nameclaim shows that he clearly gives too much weight to names in this game, but it's consistent and I don't find it all that scummy. It could still be, but there isn't enough information for me to accuse him.

As for who I think is suspicious, I don't suspect anyone very strongly right now. Max's assumption of two scum factions is suspicious, but not the most unreasonable thing in the world. I feel charter is town judging by this post:

Doh, I am a fool. Zwet, in your role PM, what kind of election do you want? Don't quote it or do something to get yourself modkilled

He probably asked zwet this to confirm him based off of his own role PM. There are no guarantees, but I think he is town because of this, and thus your attacks on him are a bit suspicious, but in the end they really don't mean too much. Add the consensus regarding zwet (and his claim) and those are my opinions right now.

I don't mind a wagon building on Max too much, but I'm not going to vote for him right now.

[Nikelaos]

Post 152 unjustified bandwagon attack on Vi

It was just a FOS, I wouldn't call it a "bandwagon attack"

Post 343 is very neutral/pro-town read on everyone but mentions he "wouldn't mind a Max wagon building" and then would support it with his vote. Again, I don't like this. Make a case against Max and vote him if you find him scummy, the way you do that and his and others' responses to your case will give us more information about likely scum. But stating your readiness to join a wagon if it should pop up but not offering to justify or start one is scummy.

I guess I should have clarified, when I said support, I didn't mean with my vote, I more meant I wouldn't oppose it sorry for the confusion.