Mini 679 - BSG: The Basestar (Game Over!)

[forbiddanlight]

Confirming my replace in. I'll read the thread with the intent of actual analysis when my head isn't about to explode. Likely tomorrow.

[forbiddanlight]

Confirming my replace in. I'll read the thread with the intent of actual analysis when my head isn't about to explode. Likely tomorrow.

I know I've been posting elsewhere but I need to be...less sick so I can get in the groove of this game. I'm already there in all my other games, it's just trying to keep myself sane before I jump headfirst into this one. I'm beginning to feel better so hopefully tomorrow or Friday I'll do a quick reread+conclusions.

[forbiddanlight]

As of end of page 3, I'd have to say I'm not liking King Enigma's reactions to the people voting him. Oddly enough however, his attackers feel weird as well, specifically Elmo. Her attack feels lackluster and attempting to push a lynch for the wrong reasons. KE's reactions however are very...over defensive for such a minor offense. Then again, I get like that myself. Continuing my read, currently finding Elmo and KE noteworthy.

End of Page 4. Tar, I honestly think you call IIoA too quickly. However, I do agree that not taking a stance is incredibly scummy, even this early. You can at least have suspicions, even if you aren't voting. KE also loses more points for some convoluted WIFOM about how he is town and voting town makes you suspect. LOL WUT? Honestly, at this point I'd vote him, also for sidestepping tar's question. Timeater also sidestepped Tar's question by attacking the way Tar was attacking him. They both are worthy of FoS'.

FoS Timeater

FoS KingEnigma

Also

I don't know about this. I really doubt that anyone would be dumb enough to defend their scumbuddy so early in the game.

Too scummy is rarely a true tell. Well, except in my case and a few other players on this site. Those players aren't playing far as I can tell, so you really can't use too scummy to clear someone.

Honestly Tim, fark is right. Tar asked YOU, not everyone. To be fair, he SHOULD have asked everyone though.

Anyway I guess I better get down to the dirty business of attacking Farkshinsoup and defending myself!

We call this OMGUS unless you have a good case, but let me finish this post...and the rest of the post is basically deflection. Tim, you are higher than KE now on scumminess.

KE, use names. Don't describe people by actions. I can also argue against two out of your three points of what makes someone suspect.

KE, your Tim case sucks. Write a real one. You are catching up to Tim now for scumminess. Oh, Elmo hasn't said much more objectionable since page 3, so I'm not as worried about her.

Fark, don't evade. You just accused Tim of this. Don't be a hypocrite, even if it was deflection. You have nothing to hide as town, so go with it. And then address concerns. A few notches up on scumminess here.

Tim, post 116. IIRC, you still haven't answered the questions yourself. Quit the hypocrisy.

IAUN gets townie points. Good pointing out of the hypocrisy.

Post 120. Null at best, possibly slightly scummy, but I end up getting people in dilemmas with this. Essentially, you conformed to look townie by answering without providing reasoning for either your initial obstinance or your switch besides someone asked. No townie points here.

Whats this mean, you basically will follow votes and join a wagon if the critical suspicion mass on KE reaches its teetering point? I dont like that. Please clarify if thats not what you meant. Also, I dont see how this information, as you claim, is disingenuous. Can you point out how I am not being sincere here? [/qote]

Strawman. It's obvious he means he's still thinking about it, not that he's waiting for bandwagon. More scum points for you Tim.

Anyway, on another note - I'm witholding my vote until I hear from more people, especially Tar. And why does it feel like Fark and I are the only ones talking?

Once again afraid of a stance? If you suspect someone, vote. Not voting won't summon people to talk.

MacCavity: I might have missed it. Where is this tim/Elmo link that Fark is pushing?

Elmo, maybe I'm biased since you voted my predecessor, but there is a LOT of fodder for scumhunting. Why the lurker vote? At least read.

Tim. I agree with your vote. I disagree with your reasons and preface. You are jumping for the anyone but you lynch. And not backing up your votes very well. Slight scum tell.

KE: The repetition of x vs. x makes me feel that's a null tell for fark. I'd prefer to have a better meta read on him for that however.

Tim: This is weird. I thought you were going to push him hard. But what's more puzzling is that his response wasn't that elucidating. I would either think possible bus attempt. Especially given the weak reason for revoting Fark before he's even posted anything else after you "LEt him off for good behavior"

Very good PBPA by Tar. I agree with it.

Tim: why is it weak and contrived? Counter PBPA him. We aren't going to take your word for it. Furthermore, why do you have to be asked? Even if they are time consuming they are a part of mafia. Do it on your own or it looks like you are trying to look townie.

Iam: Precisely my thoughts, actually. Tim/KE is a very plausible pair given that interaction. Also, I know you asked Tar, but personally, your play is different than it was in that ongoing where you were scum. You aren't leading anyone, you are actaully asking balanced questions to scum hunt.

In the end, my suspects are:

Vote Timeater

FoS KingEnigma

And...least certain but still suspect,

IGMEOY: Fark

Sorry about the wall of text, I needed to organize my thoughts.

[forbiddanlight]

He later clarified some of those comments, but I still think that effort to link them was there.

As a side note, I don't have a ton of time right now, so my posts will probably be short-ish.

Slight notch up on scumminess for fark. That's a very good point against him. His links feel rather contrived and I'm kicking myself for not seeing it in the first place.

[forbiddanlight]

Also - forbiddanlight (yay, you are in a game with me!), pardon my playing Captain Obvious here, but I am under the impression that unvoting is a useful thing.

I actually just noticed this. I was like "WAIT A SEC" when I read the latest vote count and realized I forgot to unvote.

Unvote, Vote Timeater

.

1) I fail to see how I "fell for one of the oldest tricks in the book", especially since you have failed to explain.

He thinks he trapped you with Fong's Gambit I think. But he kinda missed the fact that FONG'S GAMBIT DOESN'T WORK.

At least, that's MY perception of the situation.

[forbiddanlight]

Hey forbiddan [sic]... when you quote people, could you please say who said the original quote? Sometimes I have no idea what you're talking about.

*sigh*. I suppose. I'll do this starting here.

[forbiddanlight]

@Forbiddanlight: What's Fong's gambit (I can probably infer what it is, but more specifically, where did it come from?)?

Well, essentially, IIRC, it was an IRC game where a user named Fong voted themself, and later declared that whoever jumped on them was scum looking for a quicklynch. The MS wiki describes it better.

[forbiddanlight]

Look, I think timeater is the lynch whether he's active or not. I honestly think it would not be conducive to try to switch bandwagons with only four days left. I'm also pretty sure that tim is scum.

[forbiddanlight]

^ kill plz

lol wut?

You know, people generally have REASONS for saying things.

[forbiddanlight]

Oh good, a vig target presents itself assuming there is a vig.

If you are town, you have no reason to be so recaltricient with information. I'm half tempted to vote you now but I'd rather see a lynch rather than have to try to convince everyone to switch to you and jeopardize that deadline lynch.

So,

HoS Elmo

[forbiddanlight]

The contrived OMGUS makes me feel happy, though.

Because the OMGUS shield is a guard against suspicion for genuinely scummy behavior since WHEN?

[forbiddanlight]

I don't think you actually believe it's scummy.

No, I think it's quite scummy. I ALWAYS call out people who can't be bothered to give a reason for doing anything. It's just I also doubt I'll get the support I need for it in time. If we DO get a deadline extension, I'm switching to you.

[forbiddanlight]

I understand what you said.

I don't believe you.

Well that's fine, since you are scum and all .

[forbiddanlight]

What smacks of scuminess about it?

You're not allowed to attack me without much explanation, remember. So clearly there needs to be much explanation coming from you. Wink

Hi, strawmanning TOO? Wow, you seem to be on a roll Elmo. See, he actually cited your behavior with being rather willing to attack but unwilling to explain as a scummy behavior. That is an explanation. In contrast, you said "needs to die" and FoS'd Tarhalindur with no explanation at all. And would not provide one when asked. Are you even TRYING?

[forbiddanlight]

I placed my case. It's strong enough for D1, and OVERLY strong for a D1 lynch. Of course, you actually have been pretty good at exceeding tim's scuminess. Seriously, how do you act like that and NOT expect fire?

[forbiddanlight]

"Oh, I don't feel like being helpful today"

Posting stuff like that is worse than posting for the sake of posting, because you are being BLATENTLY anti town. And while town can act in anti town ways, I honestly cannot think of any reason for any townie to act as unhelpful as you have been. I mean, it's almost like you are trying to seem too scummy to be true, and thus avoid a lynch. I'm not buying it.

[forbiddanlight]

Then why post? Or at least post something saying you are out of it and plan to return to full awesome tomorrow.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, quite. I'd understand a degree of confusion, but I really don't follow why you'd think I'm scum because of it.

Because it's anti town and blatantly so. And it feels like you are trying to push a WIFOM for it later.

[forbiddanlight]

Are you usually anti-town when you're scum?

Doesn't matter. are YOU usually anti town when you are scum? And that doesn't even matter since it's WIFOM.

At worst, Elmo is being deliberately obscure and tight-lipped. To suggest that this behaviour is worthy of a policy lynch, regardless of his alignment, is a scumtell, IMO.

Maybe so, but most of the points against Elmo are salient, whether you think so or not. I'm willing to chance it.

Unvote, Vote Elmo

[forbiddanlight]

I still wanna lynch elmo, but if deadline approaches (since it got extended), I'll accept a Flask of Pestilence lynch.

[forbiddanlight]

* A strawman in 121. He's not strawmanning, he even said "please clarify if that's not what you meant". I had a similar reaction to his, but discarded it after some thought.

O rly? It sounded more like a rhetorical please clarify. It's obvious what he's trying to push there.

* Bad reasons for a vote. I am guessing this is 146 instead of 154. To a limited extent, I can see what you mean about "anyone but me", but I think that attitude is null (and it logically should be). He admits in the same post that it's a lazy-but-safe vote, so I have even less of a problem with it, I could easily see a townie doing the same thing.

Why should it be? Scum have far more reasons not to die than townies. It sucks to be lynched as a townie, but you can still win and your lynch at least gives info that might help town. Anyone but me is a HORRIBLE way to play town. And just because someone admits they did something scummy you let them off? Please clarify if that's not what you meant.

Tar's PBPA of Tim is a better case than what I can bring up, to be perfectly honest. But my observations are more sound than you seem to be giving them credit for. As far as I can tell, you are just dismissing every scumtell in the book because you think Tim is town and want to OMGUS me.

Though to be fair you've moved to Tar for what appears to be more weak reasoning.

* I didn't show why then because I didn't understand how it could be contradictory, and he'd provide detail if he cared.

Except you still explain things when you do them or it's scummy.

* Like I already said, I think anyone pushing "OMG SO ANTI-TOWN MUST LYNCH" from a few hours of bored posting is far more likely to be scum looking for an easy lynch than genuinely suspicious. If I wanted to not do anything, I'd just lurk. I could maaaybe see her OMGUS-ing, but I think the way you jumped on it is awful.

Lol wut? So we shouldn't lynch anti town people? Um...except for the fact that scum can act anti town to push their own agenda, sure! GREAT IDEA! LET'S MAKE THIS THE NEW META!

* That's a difference of stated opinion, not misrepresentation. I thought my vote being on her was a major factor in her attitude towards me. That's OMGUS.

When did you...oh yeah, CDB. I actually didn't realize you were voting me when I started attacking you for your blatant scumminess. You see, the thing about OMGUS is...it doesn't apply when the target that you are attacking happens to be voting you but acting scummier than...something scummy...yeah...

* I'd like you to justify the idea that I wouldn't have played like that if I were town. It seems quite probable to me.

I personally think the burden of proof is on you. I've never played with you, so I have to use baseline scumtells. Guess what, you are filling them.

Essentially, fine with a Flask, Elmo, or KE lynch.

[forbiddanlight]

forbiddanlight: Starting with CDB, there's not much to comment on. His early vote for fark seems a little off for a player of CDB's experience, but again, it's early. He then flakes away, which he does very often, so not real read on that.

Enter forbiddalight. I'm not really wild about her suspicions; it seems like most of her points are borrowed from someone else, and her suspicions roughly follow most of the popular currents at the time. I think Incognito might have a metagame note to add about forbiddanlight also.

Only as scum. Not sure how I correlate with that :S.

What sticks out the most to me, though, is her recent attack on Elmo. I remember looking at this from outside the game and thinking she was scum, and it looks no better this time round. It just looks really contrived to me - isn't forbiddanlight experienced enough to know that protown players often have very good reasons for holding back their reasoning? Her use of the term "strawman" for one of Elmo's posts looks like an attempt to make her argument stronger by using something from the wiki; I thought it was fairly obvious that Elmo's post was said in a light hearted way due to the smiley in it. I just have a hard time seeing this attack from FB as genuine, and notice she switches over to Elmo immediately after Tarhalindur voted Elmo. Again, this attack on Elmo almost looks pulled out of a scum textbook. Really not liking her play so far.

How is it contrived again? And I have never seen good reasoning for holding back suspicions and reasoning for suspicions. Only scum need to hide such things since they usually lack it. And the explanation she did provide left a lot to be desired for "reasons to be secret"

Because it totally wasn't a strawman right? So, let me get this straight...calling people out on logical fallacies that they are engaging in is now scummy because it's too "by the book"? What the hell?.

Honestly, I am not going to assume anything game related is light hearted unless it's blatently obvious. That was far from it.

And I wanted to lynch Elmo before deadline. Tar voted her, so I thought MAYBE I could get a bandwagon going on her before deadline, because I honestly think she's going to become increasingly scummy while you all give her the burden of competency. Another wiki thing for you to look up.

As for borrowed points, well excuse me if by replacing in at Page 9, I find that most of the points on the scummiest person at the time (you) have been exhausted.

Also, while I agree that your post is helpful, it feels too much like a save my ass post. It works today, but I'll be on you and Elmo tomorrow. For now, I'm going to

Unvote, Vote King Enigma

Your reasoning is backwards. I don't believe he's dropped any scumtells, which is a pre-requisite for believing he's town. I'm not giving your observations as much credit as you do because I disagree with you. Sidenote, I'm fairly sure you have no business calling my attack on you OMGUS, given I killplz'd you before you attacked me.

Fair enough. It still fails.

Intentional or not, this is a strawman; my point was the disparity between the strength of what I did and you/Tar's stated bloodlust. I think anyone pushing something relatively minor that hard is more likely to be scum looking for an easy lynch than town genuinely trying to find scum. Or would you say what I did was an extremely strong tell?

Being intentionally unhelpful would seem that way to me. You can claim that no scum in their right mind would attempt that, but look at all the support you've garnered. It is a rather high implication that you are at least non town if you don't feel like helping the town, at least to me.

I remain curious as to what scumtells I'm supposed to have dropped other than being bored, or indeed (really) any explanation of why what I did was scummy beyond you thinking it's anti-town.

I could bust out a PBPA on you, but that will have to wait til tonight. I have to leave very shortly. I'll pull out everything you've done then. Who knows, maybe it will change my opinion. I was mostly posting in the moment since you seriously were pinging my scumdar.

[forbiddanlight]

This backing away whilst throwing in a little swipe doesn't look too good. If you really find myself and Elmo scummy, I don't really see why you're leaving it for later; and it's not like you appear satisfied by either of our responses. I also don't like your characterisation of my post as a "save my ass post". I did post some defences because I feel the attacks on Timeater are largely overblown, and because I'm trying to discern who's genuinely suspicious of him and who's making hay, and my post contains a whole load of analysis and opinions on other players. I don't see anything wrong with that.

There isn't. It just saves your ass . And I'm worried about deadline more than anything. I'm kinda constrained in what I can push given that, and you know this.

Yes, I definitely don't think it was a strawman. I think he asks the serious question of what smacks of scumminess about his attacks without explanation. I saw the second line as slightly more flippant but still don't see anything particularly wrong with it.

Then you are blind and I really can't help you. If you are scum (which I believe you are), good job living today.

This is incorrect. It's not uncommon for protown players to hold back their reasoning. The two main reasons for that are (1) Accusations without stated reasons often generate better reactions, and some people find it fun to do, and (2) It often helps to hold back on what exactly you find scummy about a player so that you can observe them a while longer to see if their behaviour continues or whether it was just an anomaly. Stating reasons too early can sometimes alert scum to what behaviour they need to change.

But even that change in behavior can show a lot about who's scum or not. It's all WIFOM. Elmo's reasons didn't fall under any of these anyway, except MAYBE reaction baiting, and the reactions I saw to it personally didn't strike me as scummy.

Why wait until tomorrow? If you truly feel like one of Elmo and me are your top two suspicions, you'd be pushing for our lynch at this instant. And are you that confident that you'll even be around tomorrow?

Because I'm busy as hell for most of the rest of this day, and trying to switch lynches at deadline when no one is listening to you doesn't work.

Touching on my meta experience with forbiddanlight: I spoke with her directly after WOMAFIA where she was scum and I was town, and I remember her mentioning that she generally likes drawing scum roles better than town roles because she feels more assertive and self-assured with her suspicions. forbiddanlight-town, on the other hand, is slightly more wishy washy and unsure of herself. My general feeling about her in this particular BSG game is that her play here better matches her scum meta as opposed to her town meta, for whatever that's worth. I could draw from other examples of her town play if necessary, but I think the in-thread evidence in this particular game is telling enough on its own.

Cite those PMs. I most assuredly did NOT say that. What I said is I'm a better more townie player as scum than I am as town. Please, tell me how you extrapolated these ridiculous concepts?

In fact, post 306 very strongly reminds me of a similar post forbiddanlight made here in WOMAFIA that addressed a defense ThAdmiral-town made against a case that I made against him in which she responded to his defense before I ever even got a chance to. I'm pretty sure Elmo's post 304 was directed at Tarhalindur, so I'm not exactly sure why forbiddanlight felt the need to step in and respond to it before he got a chance to. I'm not exactly sure what this suggests about forbiddanlight's possible relationship with Tarhalindur in this game though.

Actually, null tell for me. I always respond to questions not directed at me when I feel the need to. Second, I actually thought that WAS directed to me, IIRC, so it still is a crap tell.

I could bust out a PBPA on you, but that will have to wait til tonight. I have to leave very shortly. I'll pull out everything you've done then. Who knows, maybe it will change my opinion. I was mostly posting in the moment since you seriously were pinging my scumdar.

I need to step away from this game before I get pissed off more than I already am. I'll try to provide this as soon as possible, but I'm going to try to avoid looking at this tonight since I'm getting REALLY pissed at the BS attacks directed at me.

Yes forbiddanlight mentioned voting for me, but it was after it was popular, and seemed safe, might i add.

Yeah, since my first post. Bullshit.

Its taking advantage of the situation and everyone knows it. This is the reason I don't say "I'm voting this way, but i'm cool with the following people: Blahblahblahalh and blah" because quite frankly I'm voting for someone and EVERYONE else is okay, if they are scum. When you give someone a name that you are "okay" with then you are giving scum a safe name. thanks for bringing my name up.

I don't like AtE as a tell, but seriously? This is all that, and you aren't even TRYING to defend yourself. People have GOOD points against you. Defend them.

[forbiddanlight]

According to the thread's title, our deadline falls on the 4th of November. Even if today is a complete loss for you like you claim that still leaves you with Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday to try and convince people that one of us is the correct lynch. I don't buy your explanation for why you're not pushing our lynches, especially coupled with the fact that according to the mod's vote count, there is still not one completely developed wagon on anyone at this time.

I meant the ingame day.

How could you possibly think that was directed to you when the very top of the post specifically indicates a switch in a vote to Tarhalindur?

My knack for not paying attention.

I guess we'll have to disagree on the first part. Second part doesn't really convince me that you actually believe I'm scum.

Pretty sure you are, but I like the info you are putting out to be honest. Whether scum or town, what you produced will give you a day since I really can't be around enough to push your case strongly. And hopefully you'll keep this up so we have things to analyze once you flip.

I actually deleted those PMs so perhaps you did say what you said above. However, I know that I had performed my own research after reading your PM's to me, and what I typed out here is pretty much my own personal interpretation of how your play looks to me both as town and as scum, which still fits with exactly what you're claiming your own meta looks like (looking more town as scum and looking more scummy as town). So no, I don't think what I've written out here is as ridiculous as you're claiming it is.

But, you still basically twisted that supposed meta to say something it doesn't.

This is becoming a theoretical debate, and not one that's terribly important. Whether or not you like it, that kind of tactic is frequently used by protown players. Elmo's reasons could have been any of baiting, having fun, boredom or any mixture of those.

Or she could be scum. Love how you left that out.

What do you think of MacavityLock, btw?

Fence on him. I'm not really sure what to think and I should probably reread him. To be fair, I did kinda tunnel as I continued reading everything before I replaced in. Your predecessor was really scummy.

Maybe Tar and FL are both scum, but different factions, I don't know. I don't think I want to step into the minefield of drawing anything solid from "Tar is strongly attacking/defending ___, they must/must not be scum together". I would be very skittish about following that reasoning.

As you should. Trust connection on an incredibly loose basis at best.

The key thing here is that Tar/FL's behaviour is deeply unnatural. I was baiting, but I was careful to select something that's fairly obviously null. That's why I reacted the way I did; you can see it pretty easily in retrospect, as Rishi did. (Both of the Flask pair probably know me well enough to figure it out instantly.)

Unnatural my ass. Have you EVER read a game I'm in?

There is a lack of discussion of "FL pushing ProbTown Timeater's lynch for crappy reasons". I

Tim is prob town now? Since when?

. Also, FL is obviously backing off Flask because she was only on there for the soft, popular target that was Timeater. Mumbling something about being busy is a crap excuse to avoid failing hard at justifying her stance in the manner that Tar will shortly exemplify. No, really, kill please.

Because I am a slave to mafiascum

I really do think that lynching anyone other than Tar, FL or maybe MacavityLock (I need to read him in depth) is a weak lynch, unless someone wants to make a better case or I've overlooked something. I could settle for it to avoid a no lynch, but I demand that we kill actual suspicious people today, please.

k

Unvote, Vote Elmo

(wait, I was already doing that :S)

[forbiddanlight]

No, you were voting KingEnigma because he's an easier lynch than me or Flask. =)

I was? kk. But you see, you exhorted me to vote someone who was more genuinely scummy, and your force of will was too great to ignore.

[forbiddanlight]

At the time, I was checking on Tim's status on the boards and could see that he'd dropped off. I was fairly certain that the mod, if requested by us, would replace him and extend the deadline. But Forbidden seemed to be exhorting us to get on with the lynch no matter what. I would vote her as a 2nd choice.

Problem with that is I didn't check his activity. I actually figured he was active lurking because he didn't want to deal with everything levied at him.

certainly nothing that I think compares to the evidence against Tar/FB.

What evidence? The BS case about how we jumped on Elmo? yeah..right.

[forbiddanlight]

Fortunately your approval of the case isn't required for us to lynch you.

The town's is. And if they lynched me based on such a weak case, I'm going to have to say town deserves to lose. No offense.

You didn't have to check his activity levels, because I mentioned it in thread. Since we were all discussing whether to lynch Tim in his absence, and you clearly engaged in that debate, it seems strange that you would now claim that you didn't have any knowledge of his activity levels on the board.

Just because I participate in a debate doesn't mean I pay attention, odd as that sounds.

[forbiddanlight]

So, to be clear, you never read my post 252 and had no knowledge that Tim hadn't posted anywhere on the site?

Pretty much.

Hi all, sorry I kinda vanished on you (my sister was supposed to handle all my emails and stuff like this...-_-...). I've been hospitalized for the past two weeks. Food poisoning... blood transfusions and dialysis = not fun. go town!

I'm not sure how to react to this. But I do feel sorry for you tim...I hope you feel better. It could be WIFOM, but I'm actually leaning a little bit more townie on Flask :S.

[forbiddanlight]

@forbiddanlight in particular: I'm pretty sure my hammer gambit that I pulled in WOMAFIA on Lord Gurgi is relatively comparable to this, and you didn't use that as a reason to pull away from your LG "suspicions". You look like you're just begging for reasons to not have to make a contrived case against us.

Nice try. I was scum there and I wanted that LG lynch. I'm just not really sure about much anymore in this game and my focus is elsewhere.

[forbiddanlight]

So when do you plan on focusing here? Our deadline's not on New Year's Day, ya know.

I'm focusing on elmo, and am about to do other things for the night. So, essentially, this means that another day dies without me able to do anything. It MIGHT be possible I have time to do something before deadline, but as I said earlier, it's unlikely given how busy I've been. Part of the problem is I have to do a lot in other games too. Another part is that I have a lot of rl stuff to do. It's not looking good for today (game), but tomorrow (game), should be a lot better for me to get real good stuff going on people.

[forbiddanlight]

Please actually see how much original typing was involved in that before you make such accusations, Elmo.

Second, deadline is why I voted KE, because if you remember, it was relatively close at that time so I thought, and he was my second suspect until you pulled your "trap". Also, someone else clarified that there is always a lynch at deadline AFTER I had voted, so I need not worry about that and I can pursue you. Essentially, it boils down to I don't believe you were trapping anyone but instead looking for an easy lynch on people who "took the bait". Somehow, you got people to believe this, which is amazing in and of itself. I'm sticking with you and I will produce that analysis provided I can get a solid two hours of time to type. Which is very difficult, and I hate trying to type something, have to stop it, and return to it because my stream of consciousness changes.


FoP, I have suspicions of you, but I don't feel I'm in a strong enough position with them to not back off even with WIFOM and all. I'd be in a stronger position if I had more time to do this. These really are like 5 minute posts I'm making, maybe in a couple games, and then I have to go do something else. I haven't had a good solid block of time for awhile because a lot is going on right now.

[forbiddanlight]

What does this mean?

Real life night. k thx.

Reaction-baiting, specifically your reaction is clearly what he meant here. Why just dismiss this?

Because in my experience "reaction baiting" is bullshit you use to get out of being scummy.

Oh, by the way, all this anti townness I've been exhibiting has TOTALLY been a trap to try to find out who's going to jump on me for it. Obviously, FoP and Elmo are scum for how they reacted. Obviously. [/sarcasm]

[forbiddanlight]

Then why didn't you say that you felt reaction-baiting was BS, instead of "the reactions I saw to it personally didn't strike me as scummy."?

Because they didn't. The statements aren't mutually exclusive. I also tend to run stream of consciousness and while I was thinking about it initially when I started getting on Elmo after "reaction baiting" was cited, I kinda lost it in my defense. I recalled it again when you asked me.

[forbiddanlight]

K, I'm a cylon affiliated with the cylons. Do you want a name? I have no idea if I'm town, scum ,or what, just that I don't know anyone elses alignment, and I couldn't really glean much from the wiki. I have no abilities. Thanks.

[forbiddanlight]

And I'm pretty sure forgetting who you are voting is a scumtell.

Since when?

What agenda was Elmo pushing by saying things like "I don't feel like being helpful today"? There's a lot of waffle, but at the core of it, she's still basically saying of Elmo's behaviour "it's scummy because it JUST IS!"

Um...did you miss the point where I state that claimed gambits like that are bullshit?

As I've already said, I came down pretty much entirely on Elmo's side in their debate.

Glad to see you claiming idiot

Anyway, as for the name claim, I'm D'Anna Biers. I apologize for my lackluster performance this game, I didn't realize I was this close to burnout. I hope you all actually bother to look beyond your obvious idiocy and find scum in the next day. I'll attempt to find time to get my thoughts on people out before I die, and I'd appreciate it if you all actually took advantage of the fact that as long as someone has the most votes they'll get lynched, and kindly NOT hammer me before deadline. Course, I really don't know what to expect from a town that ignores the scum in front of them.

[forbiddanlight]

I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I!!!

That's a very good question. Scientists are anticipating your death so they may autopsy you and find out .

But, that was uncalled for, and I apologize for it. My computer froze like 5 times while I tried to type that post and I was ticked off.

Since townies started having more reason to care about who gets lynched than scum (ie. since ALWAYS).

I care, but in the end I was voting KE for deadline lynch purposes before I was aware we needn't worry about that.

How does that answer the question? You attacked Elmo before he said anything about a gambit, because he was "being BLATENTLY anti-town", and have explained that this is scummy because "scum can act anti town to push their own agenda". I want to know what agenda you think Elmo was pushing.

Ah, before gambits? Easily enough, getting away with not contributing to the town.

[forbiddanlight]

Interesting. FL, what do you think of Tar's claim?

I know Tar has to be amazing at fakeclaiming after all the games he's run with mafia/SK/etc. falseclaim...but I think what he has claimed draws unnecessary attention to himself and he KNEW he'd be asked about it. Which means he'd be forced into a situation like this where he has to claim, which would essentially make him an NK target. For now, I believe it, but I don't know how Tar scum would play. I do assume that it doesn't involve claiming D1 though.

[forbiddanlight]

I dislike something about post 399 very much.

Is it snowing in hell? I

AGREE

with you. I was actually about to mention that post. AwesomePants goes from mostly lurking to these one liner half stances that don't even show where he's thinking at all.

Tarhalindur and forbiddanlight: Please state or paraphrase every piece of information in your role PM. Don't get modkilled. Tar goes first.

Alright, this is fine. Also, deadline is approaching but it would appear that we need two replacements. We are likely to get another extension as per the rules.

[forbiddanlight]

#


# I need to metagame FL. Games to read: Open 81, Mini 635, Open 92 (again), Mini 630, Mini 628, Open 83, Mini 626. I am just being lazy and putting this here instead of bookmarking it or something.

Well, the problem with Mini 628 is I replaced out D1 in that. The others are fine. Um...you could also read Mini 657, Mini 663, Mushroom Kingdom Mafia, um...trying to think of others...nyeh, there's a list in my wiki.

Sorry for not posting in a while, I've been trying to work this all out. Barring a Number 3 counter-claim, I have reason to believe that forbiddan is telling the truth. I do not know if she is scum or not, but I expect that the role name is real. For now however, the pushing back of our deadline allows me to unvote. I would also like the full info claim from forbiddan.

Are you paying attention? I gave it for the most part. The name and my (lack of) abilities. Or did I miss something?

[forbiddanlight]

Now that I'm quoting it, I see that I missed that Elmo wanted Tar to go first. I'd prefer for forbiddan to, but whatever.

Ah, now I remember that ^-^. Waiting on tar.

[forbiddanlight]

I tried to snoop into things I should have been (the identities of the final five cylons). Humans and myself have a mutual distrust. There may be some that support me, but I stand apart from efforts to be in line with humans.

That's what I got from it anyway.

[forbiddanlight]

Question: Does your flavor mention anything about "boxing" or the Resurrection Hub?

Nope. But apparently I don't recall much.

[forbiddanlight]

It means, she's on nobodies side but her own.

Well, as for the game all I know is I'm affiliated with the cylons, which could mean anything :S.

[forbiddanlight]

Didn't they box your model, then you started some crazy civil war?

I have no thematic knowledge. Truth be told, I just wanted to attempt to play a game with Tar .

[forbiddanlight]

That's a good point. Um...I'll attempt to get a reread done and up by monday, but I'm not sure where I'll fall, especially since I'm biased now :S.

[forbiddanlight]

Why FL, and none of the other non-nameclaims??
Why does Tar demand a nameclaim here, and here only?

I was the lynch candidate and that was my L- two days to deadline claim.

I realize I shouldn't answer for him but that basically is common knowledge.

[forbiddanlight]

Ah, thank you.
It is hard for me to try and keep track of the temporal events when jumping in... especially with these changing deadlines.

Understandable. I figured that might have been your trouble.

[forbiddanlight]

I'd like to hear the other cylons give their model numbers, and names.

I take it I've done this already?

Also, I don't think this will lead us to scum for flavor reasons (good games rarely give flavor hints, or if they do they are balanced by scum fakeclaims)

[forbiddanlight]

I don't like KoC's assumptions. You aren't playing mafia, you are playing "outguess the mod", I think. Not sure what to make of Grimmy's claim but I think I have an idea.

[forbiddanlight]

Forbiddanlight: The big concerns I have here are: 1) that D'Anna was boxed for the majority of season 4, and I cannot tell if the flavor here indicates that D'Anna was somehow unboxed, and 2) D'Anna, flavorwise, might be neutral (different agenda).

I really don't know. What I've been trying to do though is just play as if I'm town. If I get more information, so be it.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm a Centurion allied to Natalies/D'Anna (forbiddan)'s faction.

Was anyone else given this much information about their alignment?

Yo, forbiddanlight. To the extent you can, comment on this? It didn't sound like you *had* a faction. You just claimed you were affiliated with "the cylons", right? I don't understand how KoC can genuinely have this information if you don't have something comparable.

KoC is very definitely the odd one out at present.

o o

Sorry, missed this. I only know I'm a cylon affiliated with the cylons. I have NO idea what all this info KoC is getting, and I do admit it's odd now that I think on it. I really don't have much info.

[forbiddanlight]

I think camn has a good point at the moment.

Unvote, Vote No Lynch

[forbiddanlight]

I'm actually not sure if they are the same person or if they are interpreting their roles too far. I wouldn't think it likely there is a copy, but I think those two are distinct roles, even if storywise they are the same person.

Kinda like Magic The Gathering, where a couple legendary creatures have two forms (i.e. Kamahl, Pit Fighter and Kamahl, Fist of Krosa (or something like that))

[forbiddanlight]

/me sighs.

I'm gonna catch hell if I'm wrong, but between the choices, I actually lean towards an

Unvote, Vote farkshinsoup

. Not that I find any of the candidates particularly good, but it's been hard to read people this game for some reason :S.

[forbiddanlight]

FL, why are you voting Fark?

I reiterate, this wagon sucks.

character of roleclaims. Grimmy's felt more real than fark's. If we have to choose between them, I prefer fark. Mac was getting scanned.

As for KoC's result...I don't think he's lying...just a feeling, to be honest.

Unvote, vote MacavityLock

[forbiddanlight]

Voted based purely on feelings is pro-town and made of win! > >

Well, I'm assuming there is a justification for the feeling that I'm too lazy to find. And I think that KoC really has no reason to lie about Macavity. Even downing a town jailkeep isn't worth one out of potentially three scum. (though there could be scum factions I guess :S?)

Also, do NOT clear KoC even if Mac flips scum. Bussing, scum factions, there are several reasons KoC could be scum even if he's telling the truth.

[forbiddanlight]

...ok. Anyway, Macavity was scum. Realize this doesn't preclude KoC from bussing, but for now it's in his favor. It's late right now for me, but I think I may have to reassess Macavity's connections to others. Hopefully I will post on it tomorrow or Wednesday.

[forbiddanlight]

You still think KoC might have been bussing Macavity? What benefit could he possibly receive from doing so? The idea of No Lynch was even floated around for awhile which could have easily been an option for him to choose rather than losing his "potential" scum buddy during Day 1 but instead he helped us lynched scum. I highly doubt this was the work of a bus on KoC's part.

Well, is the benefit not what you just said?

But no, I don't honestly believe it's indicative of bussing. I'm exhorting for alertness, not trying to paint KoC red no matter what.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm sorry I haven't been giving this game as much as I've been meaning to. I know I've been posting in other games, but those are mostly off the hip posts and I was hoping to do a more detailed one here seeing connections to maccavity. This week has been frenetic however and I haven't had as much chance as I'd like to get a good reread in. I don't think I'll get it tonight either, but possibly tomorrow evening, I thnk. It all depends on how my schedule goes. Sorry .

[forbiddanlight]

I know I never got that read done, but I've been kinda keeping up, and this:

and are coming under fire, you're just trying to take anyone, for anything, as long as you live another night.

sums up my thoughts on the Rishi issue.

Vote Rishi

. (Maybe I did take on too many games finally, lol)

[forbiddanlight]

I apologize for not posting for so long. I haven't found much to comment on since it appears to me Rishi is just digging deeper and everyone is calling him out on it before I can. I'll try to do better with this.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm still around, but there's so little to comment on. I think Rishi just needs to be lynched.

[forbiddanlight]

Um...wow. Two no kill nights? I'm kinda wondering if there is some WIFOM this time about a roleblock. Regardless, I guess we ask again who got roleblocked?

[forbiddanlight]

Well, as I announced during twilight yesterday, I blocked andersonw. So, yeah, WIFOM for sure. What does everyone think about a mass claim at this point?

I want to hear Kison's result first. As well as anyone else who thinks they have relevant results before we all just throw our roles out there.

[forbiddanlight]

Where is FL?

First post of the day. There's not much to comment on. I really have no idea what to do in this situation.

[forbiddanlight]

I also could question Kison's sanity, based on his character claim.

That would make you scum, you realize, right?

Maybe ALL of us are either Fleet-aligned, or Cylon-aligned, and whoever kills the other first wins. In which case there are 4 more cylons for us to kill

True, but I would think the cylon mafia know each other, and I certainly don't know anyone.

[forbiddanlight]

I like the plan as it stands to reblock anderson and see if the scum continue no killing. I think this is the most logical action.

I'll vote no lynch when Kison does his reading.

[forbiddanlight]

I did my really slight breadcrumb in post 186, if that helps (actually I'll give it away: it's in the first word of post 186. does that help anyone?).

Helo?

If we mislynch me, then the scum could still get a NK in, but if they just NK me with a no lynch, then the parity remains the same.

I'm hoping she meant NK fark, not you.

Just wondering, what is the point of a scum-cop?

Two scum groups, possibility of SK, or perhaps it's a role cop and Kison is lying. Or a gunsmith looking for vigs/cops

And you probably know this already, but there's still the possibility that scum intentionally didn't NK. (which is still a lot of WIFOM)

The thing is, Kison would assumably investigate you at some point, thereby removing the need to depend on the roleblock results. The WIFOM disappears.

[forbiddanlight]

Could someone explain why this is obvious? And does it require thematic knowledge or do I just fail at picking up breadcrumbs?

[forbiddanlight]

Karl Agathon, AKA "Helo" is married to Sharon Agathon, which is the role name that Grimmy claimed. So, that crumb needs flavour knowledge. Grimmy's "I am absolutely certain that anderson is town" crumbs, on the other hand, do not.

True, though I was leaning cop, which would be weird with Kison around.

Alright, understandable. In which case, where should we turn now?

[forbiddanlight]

Um...yeah...wow

Unvote, Vote Grimmy

[forbiddanlight]

I can see a 1 scum mason, 1 town mason gig.

This is my thought. We never DID get the mason thing confirmed.

Waiting for AndersonW to state whether or not mod confirmation exists as well as Grimmy to explain what the frak he is doing.

This

[forbiddanlight]

And check it... now we know there are at least 3 factions. the Cylon Mafia. The Cylons. and the Fleet. I don't know if the cylons want us humans dead or not.... but I wouldn't put it past them!

It pretty much specifically says we win when threats to our team no longer exist (paraphrase).

So, I dunno?

And I'd like an explanation from Grimmy too.

[forbiddanlight]

Um...wow...camn seems to have practically self destructed with that last. None of that makes sense. "Oops, I lied" seems to translate to "Oh wait, I claimed human before I realized not all cylons were scum".

Actually, I'd like a check on that if at all possible. But anyway, I think I'll

Vote camn

. That puts her at L-2.

[forbiddanlight]

I think it was a one-shot ability, but if it is not, whoever made the shot had to be town, because they took out one of the scum with the shot. So whoever commanded this action, if this is a one-shot ability, then this proves you are a townie, and you should reveal that you did this so we can narrow down the list of potential scum.

HUUUUUUH!?

fark wasn't scum


I'm happy with my vote.

Also:

andersonw- clear via Grimmy mason claim
Grimmy- too scummy to be scum

To the first, they weren't confirmed masons, and said they were, IIRC

To the second, WIFOM

iamausername- caught my lie Smile
Kison- too outrageous a claim to be fake.

These two are also WIFOM.

Essentially, most of your list is based on very flimsy things. I never liked people trying to "clear" townies without an investigation anyway.

[forbiddanlight]

I think the way forward probably involves lynching forbiddanlight. I want to look back and see if either of the scum showed any knowledge of things she referenced when claiming; if they did, then there's no persuasive reason to keep her alive, I think.

Why are we lynching me again? I mean, if it's a CL situation, I'm fine with it. Good of the town and all that, but if we can still lose by lynching unconfirmeds all day, I'm not down with it and would like to consider others.

I also think we trust camn too easily.

Incidentally, I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a naive gunsmith. I don't even think there is such a thing, since sanity applies to cops, and generally speaking there is something like a specific notice in the role PM, or some flavour hint. Can someone more familiar with the flavour tell me about these visions?

I merely imply sanity is not guaranteed, whether it is or not.

I think the first one. I think Forbidden wasn't paying attention. She thought that, with Fark dead, Kison was fair game. Lucky us.

Wait, what? So, why are we assuming I'm scum again? I honestly see no real reason why I'm being called scum, yet it's being reinforced :S. Um, yeah, this isn't at all scummy from camn, no.

[forbiddanlight]

Hey, FL, who do you think we should lynch? #1, #2, #3?

Obviously I want to lynch who I'm voting for.

Number two would probably be andersonw or Grimmy, and upon anderson's last post, Grimmy

Number 3...hrn...I can't really see anyone suspicious enough to merit this. Probably myself, Kison, or you since we are probably the least confirmed.

[forbiddanlight]

Yes - you're assuming a lot of people to be clear for vague reasoning still (too scummy to be scum? Too outrageous a claim?*)

THANK YOU! I only said that earlier

For ignoring my questions in Post 912.

Quote them. I likely missed them.

I see no good reason to assume that Kison is town.

Thank you again

KoC is not clear. KoC is clear unless he pulled an insane gambit, which means he is not clear. I am paranoid about confirming people, as Patrick will confirm. He in no way deserves to be in the same category as e.g. Camn. This is not to say I think he played badly, or is scum, but it is very important to be ultra-careful about confirming people.

And this is basically how you should play. You are resoundingly in agreement with me on theory.

I do think that camn, Grimmy, Iam, anderson, and Flask are town. I am still of the opinion that the way forward involves less claim analysis and more scumhunting. In that vein, let's wagon vote forbiddanlight again.

Whatever. When camn flips scum because hopefully you DO kill her eventually, I'll reserve the I told you so.

And before you say "DEFEND YOURSELF ZOMG", give me something to defend. You appear to be attempting a CL situation. I'm unconfirmed. So go for it.

all the lynches you want to line up are claimed pro-town roles, or yet-to-claim players. D'Anna, for instance, would be fairly likely to be a pro-town leader of some kind, since she took over when Natalie died. Leoben... well, I'm really unsure about that, since Leoben could be screwing with Kara, for instance. But since there are "good" and "bad" Leobens in the series, I wouldn't lynch on that alone yet. And saying "if no-one dies, we lynch Elmo

Most of this, but I quibble with you assuming flavor will reflect scum, and even if it does you assume there isn't any ability to fakeclaim. Either way, the lynch order camn is trying to set up I think is to distract us. I like my vote.

because the standard response is to switch your brain off and lynch everyone un'confirm'ed.

HEEEY!!! Look what's happening, eh?

Ok, so I have two unreasoned votes on me, the best I can find is that I'm unconfirmed. Can we please get to lynching camn?

[forbiddanlight]

This is an interesting post.
It was the first post of the day, which is scumtell #17 in the camn book of scumtells.
It also has you asking who Fark blocked, even though he had already told us his intentions. I think you were surprised that Kison lived though the night.

No, I more didn't care much about the game, and that was noteworthy. Further, standard scumtells rarely are.

You should be giving ME something to defend. All you ever said was " None of that makes sense."
How doesn't it make sense?
I have an innocent verdict.
I Have claimed a pro-town power role.

Yet you want to lynch me. Why?
How can I clear things up for you?

Let's see, you lied. Not only that, but you lied in a way that could have been harmful to the town. Further, you are clearing people left and right for thin reasons, and voting for even thinner. Kison has also gotten innocents on everyone thus far. I don't trust him, to be honest. Or rather, I don't trust his role. Claiming a power role does not make you above suspicion either. But, essentially, I doubt you can clear things up. Quite simply, you are scum.

You on the other hand, have not been incredibly helpful to the town. If you ARE telling the truth, you are vanilla, and "have no abilities" which makes a mislynch of YOU less costly than a mislynch of ME.

But, we need to lynch scum. So, sorry. If I knew for a fact you were a mislynch, I wouldn't be voting you, now would I?

[forbiddanlight]

the fact is, what I did worked.
I avoided name claiming.
I avoided being night killed
I definitely think I stopped at least 1, if not 2 night kills.

You said you block/protected Kison all three nights, right? While there might have been attempts on his life, who's to say A)Scum didn't withhold or B)Fark didn't do all the work til he died? Further, the other two are rather null if you are scum.

I think you guys need to make up your mind on ME pretty soon. If you think I am scum, then lynch me. If NOT, lets get on with winning this game, OK?

Nice little subtle reinforcement there.

I think the GOOD play for a Doc is to fake-claim, and protect the Cop. Add on a thematic twist that would make you a CLEAR target, and I choose fake-claim.

Once again, why should theme MATTER!? A well designed theme game will not be broken by mass name claim.

Because Forbiddan-scum makes sense to me in light of the events of the game

You still never explained this. Saying so doesn't make it so. ESPECIALLY when asked directly why you think I'm scum, this is a slippery answer.

[forbiddanlight]

forbiddanlight, I'd like to hear your reasons on why camn was harming the town by lying (not "preventing something better from happening", but "harming").

iamausername investigated camn and found her to be lying. Even if what she says was true, she's left us very little recourse.

Just had a thought. Maybe macavitylock was lying about being a jailkeeper.

Possible. In fact, probable since he WAS mafia. But that doesn't necessarily mean camn

is

one.

[forbiddanlight]

How did I hurt the town? By wasting investigations? Did Kison hurt the town too? He was also investigated...

Except you do understand that by lying we can't trust your claim, and our only real recourse is to lynch you, or watch you win as the last scum. i.e., you didn't get night killed, good job. Too bad you'll be lynched if the town has half a brain.

[forbiddanlight]

EBWOP: This is with the premise you are telling the truth now, which I heartily disbelieve.

[forbiddanlight]

Do you believe I am the character I say I am?

I don't know. All I know is I doubt you are the role you claimed.

And I can't really help it if you refuse to accept my answers. Fulfilling

your

goals is not necessarily fulfilling the

town's

goals.

Being lynched now is better than being NK'd Night 1

False premise. Pro tip. you wouldn't have been.

Better than Kison/Tar getting NK'd night 1

Protip, also doubtful if you were what you say you were and did what you said you did.

So, even your stated goals would have been achieved telling the truth at the juncture where we were just claiming CYLON or HUMAN. Also:

In my PM it tells me that I remember my whole life of being Human, and that I have no place with the cylon. I am not confused as to what I am, but claiming Human is more indicative of my true alignment than claiming cylon. I thought I was human my entire life, I am married to a human (the one I have spent the game protecting), and my loyalty is to the Colonial Fleet.

This sounds like scrambling. Like "Ok, well, yanno what, I

didn't really

lie, I just kinda...went with thematic truth, not my actual role.

[forbiddanlight]

In fact, your "protips" seem to be saying that if I had claimed cylon, all the good things that happened STILL would have happened.
That doesn't look harmful!

Um, now you are just plan changing the issue. You said you lied about being human. I said NOT LYING would have been good.

still no answer, huh? A lot of speculation as to what might have happened.... But you can't point out how it was "harmful".

Mostly the fact is if you are telling the truth about your role after lying, you wasted it, and without lying could have lived longer provided the town isn't dumb enough to let you slide. I'm not sure how to precisely get this across.

[forbiddanlight]

I'd like to order two player-by-players with fries to go, please. Esp from FL.

No. I have a reason for this too. Because I have several theories I do NOT want to release yet, because they'll potentially free camn by way of distraction. I don't trust camn, and I don't want to distract the town with my other ideas which will let camn live on.

I mean, if a majority demands it, I'll have no recourse, but I honestly think right NOW a player by player would be harmful, at least from me.

[forbiddanlight]

FL, you are waffling. PBPA. Nao.

No. I gave my reasons.

Unless you meant a PBPA of camn. In which case that's fine, sorry I misunderstood.

I want an FL PBPA as well. I'm thinking either camn or FL for when I get back from holiday (see sig), but I'm not going to drop a vote and leave it for that length of time.

Meaning? I mean, the first part.

[forbiddanlight]

how would a player by player from you be harmful?

Distraction from the scum in front of us.

[forbiddanlight]

My vote is 100% not moving from you until you at the very least do a player-by-player. It doesn't have to be pages, but it does have to express a clear opinion on everyone based on reasons that you cannot easily back away from later. Precisely because, tactically speaking, it is going to be so much of a pain in the ass for you to do so as scum.

Your translation is wrong. Actually, doing a PBPA would faciliate me getting people other than myself lynched. WIFOM, I know. I will do a point by point on camn soon, and if she DOES by some miracle flip town, I will follow up with a Player by player. Or you could lynch me today and figure out what to do tomorrow.

Even vaguely assuming, for whatever bizarre reason, that we would go rushing off accusing someone else and totally forgetting about camn, there is basically no way to assert that camn is the best lynch today if you have not examined all the possible options. And given that we haven't had a great deal of analysis out of you since early day 1, I think now would be a good time to act in the town's interest with some of that. I stress that if you are actually town, now is definitely the time to try and assert you pro-town credentials by trying to act as townish as possible.

I am though. Because the other things I do have will seem too subjective. I've not been exclusively looking at camn, it just appears that way. I also don't think the people that I could build a respectable case on are actually scum.

I find it HIGHLY unlikely that you would make a case on someone that you judged to be weaker than the one on camn that other people would follow. You've already claimed, so there is no way to spill role-based info you don't want public.

No, actually, I've judged these cases to be stronger. I just don't think they lead to scum.

Last and not least, there are good tactical reasons to not lynch camn today. If Kison is legit + sane, scum are pretty much going to be forced to kill her at some point. So if you are town, I would advise you to look elsewhere. So it is most definitely in your interest to do a player-by-player, in my opinion.

Too bad.

Further, Kison's sanity is far from guaranteed, given his results, as well as the fact he SHOULD have been roleblocked if camn were telling the truth.

[forbiddanlight]

As scum, why would I claim that I had roleblocked the guy who cleared me?
All WIFOM aside, why choose HIM? It would be, maybe, the worst idea ever...

Well, you lied once. Who's to say you actually did.

[forbiddanlight]

So basically what you're saying is that you have a stronger case on, say, Person X, but you don't think it leads to scum?

Stronger cases are more likely to lead to scum. That's pretty much what strong/weak means. The more and better quality evidence against someone, the more likely they are guilty. So you cannot possibly have a stronger case on person X and still think camn is more likely to be scum.

This is farcical.

I trust my gut over my logic. Sorry ^-^.

Um... Maybe you misunderstand my question. It is an observable fact that I claim to have blocked Kison.
Why would I make that claim as scum?

To say that.

And sarcasm is simply tiresome. Lets get back to logic and discussion, please.

Ironic you should say that.

If claiming cylon was so NEUTRAL, so SAFE.... then, if I were scum, why would I have avoided it?

I'd say to say that. I'm getting tired of using that but really all your "If I were scum..." statements are begging to be called out on WIFOM.

[forbiddanlight]

ForbiddanLight: Why not just post a brief pbp? The distraction argument really doesn't hold much weight.

I'm wanting to do my vote dance soon.

How about you investigate me? Then again, we really aren't sure how trustworthy the results are, and further I disbelieve them relating to camn.

as for a pbp, whether you buy the distraction argument or not is up to you. I think that in this situation it would be better for town if I didn't push my other thoughts at this time. And I'm the one who would be doing the work of a pbp, so no.

[forbiddanlight]

p.s. This is another good reason not to lynch camn today. If the scum want to kill anyone, they have to confirm Kison. If they want to ever kill Kison, they have to kill camn. This is a nice little catch-22.

Provided she's telling the truth. You assume this too easily.

Well, if you do want to believe that we could always no lynch/no kill to oblivion. Sound fun?

[forbiddanlight]

I don't follow, either of those.

You assume camn is telling the truth, and the scum would have to go through her to kill Kison...unless she's the scum herself. I suppose I didn't think this one all the way though, but still, a scum kill far from clears Kison anyway.

The second was a sarcastic comment about your idealist assumption that neither Kison nor camn are lying, so I say we should no lynch to oblivion. Or til Kison has examined everyone. That might work too.

[forbiddanlight]

Then what do you propose? Do you have any kind of plan past your incredible tunnel vision on me?

I release that PBPA. Which will show that logic trumps gut.

Or you could all lynch me. Luckily the START of this game went so well you can afford it.

[forbiddanlight]

forbiddan, what are your thoughts on Andersonw?

Who? Wait, he's playing this game? I was totally unaware of this. Since, yanno, I haven't seen a post from him in ages. And I can't really think of anything remarkable he's said thus far anyway. And there is the fact he lied about being confirmed masons. But no, he actually wasn't my second pick for scum .

[forbiddanlight]

who is your second pick?

classified info.

[forbiddanlight]

Huh, didn't think about that. Well, there's no real need to hammer me. Lynches always happen at deadline. I'm sure I'll come up with something if we don't lynch you, camn. I kinna wanna support no lynch to see what will happen.

[forbiddanlight]

My current sketch is to lynch FL, then no lynch continuously with camn protecting Kison, until either Kison has claimed results on everyone or there is a nightkill. How does that sound?

Well, congratulations on raising the odds of you being scum considerably.

Before I go further, does anyone ELSE realize what is wrong with Elmo's statement?

[forbiddanlight]

that he is assuming you are town?
In reality, we just win, cuz you are scum?

NO U.

Yes, the fact that he says lynch me ASSUMING I AM TOWN! This doesn't ping anyone's scumdar?

[forbiddanlight]

We're not lynching camn. Does this mean you will be coming up with something?

No. We should lynch camn.

[forbiddanlight]

You are SO not helping your case.

Should I have to? The game won't end with my death because I'm not scum. I'm not really worried about losing, because we do have such an advantage. BUt I would like you to die so we can win quicker.

[forbiddanlight]

and why is FL so dead set against making a pbpa?

Because I have a stronger case on someone else and don't want to release it since I don't trust it. My intuition screams camn. I trust it over my logic.

I wish you would suddenly start helping. But I am town, and your inability to consider that as a possibility makes you pretty useless.
So, no. You don't HAVE to.. but it would be nice.

Yeah, it would be nice if I brought up a stronger case on someone else, wouldn't it?

[forbiddanlight]

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me. How, exactly, do you measure which case is 'stronger', if not by which one you believe in more?

Clearly, I understand the strength of your desire to see camn lynched, but if you have that much of a case on someone else, you should really post it.

Stronger doesn't mean strong. But what I mean by strength is strength of logic, not strength of feeling. I don't believe the case but I can see where it would make sense. I'm arguing with myself basically. And also, it's not so much my other case is epically strong, though I think it has enough merit to be distracting, it's just that logically it's stronger than the very little I have on camn. I just trust my gut more. I'll probably end up posting it anyway soon.

Why lynch FL first? Why not go with no lynching from the start?

Well, I've been saying that myself, but apparently no one wants to listen.

[forbiddanlight]

Why don't you vote no-lynch then?

Because you are a preferable lynch. If it REALLY looks like you won't be lynched, I'll probably do so.

If you do indeed have a strong case on someone, I would like to see it. It might move my vote, if it was compelling.
Plus, if you are either lynched or nightkilled, the town would certainly be well-served by having your thoughts available, regardless of your alignment.

as I said, stronger doesn't mean strong.

Further, the idea of me being nightkilled is laughable at best.

[forbiddanlight]

Of course, it could be that you are mad at me.

Let me state first that what someone does in a mafia game STAYS in that mafia game, and while I will use emotional appeals, I don't let my emotions color my perception of the person. i.e., no matter how I act to you in a mafia game, I'm not "mad" at you or anything. It's just a game, and postgame I'll probably be all "Yeah, um, I didn't mean to sound so mean to you camn" or something, regardless of what you flip.

SO the question is, would scum, possibly the FINAL scum, behave as you have been behaving?

I'd say don't put anything past me, but this conclusion is fair.

But what would scum do right now?
If we are both town, I think they lurk today. Let us kill each other.

That's a big if, IMO. Though, you do have me thinking. There is a slight possibility of this. I'm beginning to lean more towards no lynch.

So lets talk for a moment.. given you and I are town... who is the scum?
I would think anderson.. but I might just have a grudge.
Flask? Elmo?

Elmo would be, if it isn't you. Not just because of that last thing I pointed out. That's admittedly weak, but there is a bit more. Actually, between you and Elmo, I could almost postulate 4 scum. The way Elmo has acted towards you feels SUPER buddyish. And not of the town aligned variety.

because say I get lynched, or I get nightkilled... either way, I am revealed as town. If you ARE scum.. you know that will happen.. and you know you would look bad because of it.

To argue against myself, Iam would look bad as well, just not as bad as I do. And if you did get lynched/NK'd I'd start scrambling to get a PBPA done to see if I could shield myself.

[forbiddanlight]

To argue against myself, Iam would look bad as well, just not as bad as I do. And if you did get lynched/NK'd I'd start scrambling to get a PBPA done to see if I could shield myself.

EBWOP: That is, if you were town.

[forbiddanlight]

In summary, there's no reason to lynch Camn now.

So, why lynch me? Would it not make more sense to no lynch? But, I finally understand why you don't want camn dead.

I don't like it, but

Unvote, vote No Lynch

[forbiddanlight]

WEll, if you are just gonna lynch me, whatever then. If camn isn't, it's Elmo. I'm sure if you bother to reread him you'll find a good case.

[forbiddanlight]

A bit late for that, isn't it? I don't believe in twilight info dumps. Shouldn't have hammered so fast.

[forbiddanlight]

To be fair, you all did NOT have a perfect town performance. Granted, my behavior wasn't the greatest, but you had enough of a lock on the game so you could have left me alive and continued the camn/Kison thing ad inifinitum, and OFFICIALLY never lynched a townie. Otherwise though, town did well. I say that seperate from myself since I really didn't do much. I could see the town getting a scummy for this, at least the PRs.

[forbiddanlight]

And Forbiddan... My apologies for lynching you. I thought you were scum up until the end... But i think I was biased by thematic knowledge.

Well, to be fair, I was wrong about you (AND Elmo, geez), in addition to playing super anti town. But you still could have let me live at that point ! It was NEARLY perfect

But, part of my apparent disinterest was the fact we hit a collusive lockdown situation. Those are boring for vanillas, so I stopped caring. I apologize to des and the town for that, since I probably should have given my all til the end :S. Either way, good game, so...yeah.