Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[biancospino]

Can anyone tell me what the typical Day length is on a Normal game?

Also am I the only person who hates mafia day-talk?

10-14 days.

Curious about anti day-talk arguments.

10-14 might actually be a bit high of an estimate, at least 7-days Days are not uncommon for minis.
To be a bit more quantitative, assuming that I've not messed up the count:

• Among all non-ongoing Mini Normals that ended in 2022 or later:
  • 10 had 10-days D1, and 7-days for other Days*
    
  • 6 had 7-days Days
    
  • 6 had 10-days Days
    
  • 4 had 10-days D1, and 8-days for other Days
    
  • 2 had 14-days D1, and 10-days for other Days
    
  • 2 had 14-days Days
  * one of those games actually also had 5-days Days in XLo. Curiously, another one of those games were the only one in this time period with 1-day Nights, instead of the far more common 2-days
  
  
  For those games as a whole, the D1 deadline was 238h24m on average, and the D2 deadline was 201h36m (around 8 days and a half) on average.
  
  
• Among all non-ongoing Large Normals that ended in 2021 or later (there are a lot less of those, so I've picked a larger time period):
  • 4 had 10-days Days
    
  • 2 had 11-days Days
    
  • 2 had 14-days D1, and 10-days for other Days
    
  • 1 game each had 7,12,13,14-days Days
    
  • 1 game had 10-days D1 and 8-days for other Days
    
  • 1 game had 12-days D1, then 10-days for the next days, and 8-days Days since when <=10 players remained
  For those games as a whole, the D1 deadline was ~270h52m on average (a bit over 11 days), and the D2 deadline was ~250h17m (around 10 days and a half) on average.

[biancospino]

what happens if 2 lazy traitors are the last scum players alive? would they both be endgamed, or would 1 be endgamed while the other joins the scum PT?

I don't think Traitors are allowed to join the scum PT in a Normal game, so it'd be the former.

uuh... about that, viewtopic.php?t=90861
Turns out a lazy Traitor that gain access to the PT when they're the last wolf standing is normal apparently.

Still, in the 2 lazy Traitor case, I still think they're both endgamed, since when the Traitor endgame ability would trigger the lazy modifier would not have any effect (since there would still be 2 scum left)

[biancospino]

How intricate can we get?

Quite I bit I presume. Having one Informed knowing that another Informed knows X is actually a thing I did in a normal, so it can surely be done.

The wiki poses no explicit limitation on the sort of info that could be passed, so I deduct there is none explicitly

[biancospino]

All flavor should be public; flavor is not allowed in Role PMs

[biancospino]

thus making it so at best they'd have to wait two Nights to commit a NK

You can actually already accomplish this by making all scum, e.g., compulsive odd-nights Visitors (with multitasking off) to allow to kill only on even nights; or using a combination of night specific/nonconsecutive to get whatever schedule you want

[biancospino]

I really want Vain to be normal, I always wanted to have something like a Vain Vigilante for instance.

Tbf you already can do pretty much that specific role; combined Vigilante (loyal Vigilante) (loyal Bodyguard)

Which is to say that Vain can essentially already faked in normals for Town only, with the roundabout construct "combined [role] (loyal Vig) (loyal Bodyguard)", except this is quite ugly and gives the townie a gunsmith guilty that probably shouldn't have

[biancospino]

Great, give me a list of roles people want to consider normal and then I will unilaterally add them or not!

As a complement/antithesis to Thaumaturge, maybe add Logician (it doesn't have a wiki page yet, but it checks if the tatget is either Mafia or a PR [but not both])?

Isn't it actually the same then? Would return positive on (Vanilla Mafia) and on (PR Town), which is the same as 1164

[biancospino]

Oh. Right, didn't think about SKs.

---

Any chance that roles/modifiers that can pierce, or protect against, blocks be normalized?

Strong-Willed -- (modifier) modified ability can't be roleblocked or protected from
Epicurean -- all non-killing ability targeting you can't fail
Willbooster -- your target's actions can't be blocked

There is precedent, as Strongman is essentially the result of putting a strong-willed modifier on the factional kill

[biancospino]

Instead of separating abilities into "roles" and "modifiers" on the wiki, can we separate into "active roles", "passive roles", and "modifiers"?

btw there is some strangeness about what exactly is Ninja.

Ninja appears to be used as both a modifier and a role and those should not have the same name imho. For instance, in a, say, (Town ninja Cop), ninja is clearly a modifier, but in a (Mafia Cop Ninja) the Ninja is clearly a passive role -- unless it is allowable to interpret it as a modifier applied to the

factional action

which would open a whole can of worm that I'm not sure feels Normal (as it would leave the door open for such things like a (complex Mafioso) or even silliness like (combined Alien Mafioso) etc.).

As such, I think for logical consistency there should be either two different names for role!Ninja and modifier!Ninja, or modifers should be allowed to modify factional actions. The latter would be more interesting, idk how normal it would be thou

[biancospino]

Random thing, though.
Should

Role Guard

be Normal?
It's the equivalent to Security Guard for Role Watcher.
And the latter two are both Normal.

nth RG, just to complete the symmetry Voyeur:Watcher:RoleWatcher~Visionary:SecurityGuard:X

[biancospino]

(Also Silent has the somewhat undesiderable problem that one could have a (loud silent X), which sounds silly. I do like stealthy)

[biancospino]

Hm...

I could inform a Townie or two that two rival Scum members know each other (roles and alignments).

At that point why not just have that as a public info instead, which you are allowed to do. Would greatly simplify matters by removing the need to inform scum that town is informed

[biancospino]

Expanding on what T3 said, is it possible to make a Modifier that lets a PR target target more than one player at a time?

I want a Fruit Vendor that can target 3 players and give them each random fruit at night. Don't judge me.

OR, a PR that can Follow Player A and Motion Detect Player B.

Can already do that I think:
multitasking FV FV FV
multitasking Follower MD
(but the fruits can't be random, randomness isn't normal)

Unless you want to impose that A and B

must

be different; or unless you want to force the PR to use all parts of the role, which however you can mostly emulate by adding a bunch of compulsive modifiers

[biancospino]

But, leaning into that, can one have a day/night x Informed that receives one of several

preprepared

infos conditionally on events that happened before x (and that possibly reference such events)?

Like, say, "Night 1 Informed (If X is still alive, 'X is a VT'. Otherwise, 'Y is a VT')"