Ultimate Videogame Topic 3: The Next Generation

This forum is specifically for discussing non-Mafia games
(board, card, video, we're not picky)
.
Playing
such games should happen in the Mish Mash forum, of course.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3131 (isolation #0) » Tue Sep 20, 2022 6:23 pm

Post by Somnus »

In post 3125, Ythan wrote:I wanna make Doom wads anyone ever done that?
I briefly messed around with Ultimate Doom Builder a while back. Would not recommend unless you want to dedicate a significant amount of time learning not only how the program works, but what makes a good Doom map. And that's just the beginning. If you want to make a playable 32-map WAD, especially with no prior map-making experience, say goodbye to all of your other hobbies and accept that this is going to be your life for the next couple years. I very quickly decided it wasn't worth it. YMMV though.
In post 3129, Ythan wrote:Doom level e3m9 is very cool.
Yes, Warrens is fantastic, and having it come right after Mt. Erebus is nice. Two fantastic maps in a row. Most of the secret missions from the official/licensed IWADs are pretty "meh", but Warrens is one of the rare great ones.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3133 (isolation #1) » Tue Sep 20, 2022 7:03 pm

Post by Somnus »

I've recently been teaching myself how to do all the maps from Doom 1 and 2 from pistol starts on Ultra Violence. I can't see myself bothering to learn all of the TNT: Evilution or Plutonia Experiment maps from pistol start. A little more time than I'm willing to invest.

Just went and did Warrens for the hell of it though from scratch. It's an easy enough map to do from a clean start since it has literally every weapon in it (including the BFG) and 2 invulnerability spheres. Up until the Cyberdemon, the only other tipoff that it isn't the exact same map is that they use different music tracks.

As far as I can recall, the secret entrance to Warrens from Mt. Erebus is the only instance of a mandatory rocket jump in the official classic Doom games. There's a pretty sick one in Map 29 of Doom 2 (The Living End) that you'd realistically only see in speedruns, and plenty of strafe-running, but the aforementioned rocket jump is the only mandatory one I can think of.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3135 (isolation #2) » Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:41 pm

Post by Somnus »

Forgot that you can technically strafe-run to the aforementioned exit. I’m kind of just ok at strafe-running though and always just rocket jumped into it after grabbing one of the invulnerability spheres. I still play Doom keyboard-only like a weirdo.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3138 (isolation #3) » Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:57 pm

Post by Somnus »

Yeah, Ultimate Doom is basically the defacto version of Doom 1. Thy Flesh Consumed is significantly harder. I've never 100%'ed E4M1 because there's barely any ammo and it requires taking out 4 Barons at the end if you activate the NIN secret. The only health in the map is 9 tiny health bonus potions.

As hard as E4M2 is, it's an easier map to 100%. Episode 4 is interesting but has some problems. There's 2 untaggable secrets in E4M3 and 1 in E4M7 (you can get them with no-clipping turned on though). E4M6 is just a nightmare in general. A lot of Romero's maps go a little overkill on damaging floors.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3143 (isolation #4) » Wed Sep 21, 2022 9:58 pm

Post by Somnus »

Ways to tell if the map you're playing was designed by John Romero: half the floor is lava or poisonous slime.

If you can do E4M6, you can do any map in Ultimate Doom (the final 2 maps of Episode 4 are two of the easiest in the episode for some reason), and more or less any map in Doom 2. There's going to be a learning curve to Doom 2 though because of some additions that aren't in the first game.

While Doom 1 is a lot of small rooms and corridors for close combat, Doom 2 has a lot of out in the open maps (in the style of Mt. Erebus). This gives you a lot more room to work with, but you're also going to be pelted by a lot more nonsense, face a higher monster count per map, and have a lot of secrets/routes to memorize. Doom 2 is harder than the first game (minus the 4th episode), and in my opinion, the highs are higher and the lows are lower. Most of Doom 1 is pretty consistent. There's very few really bad maps. I'd say 1/3 of the maps in Doom 2 are incredible, 1/3 are good enough/enjoyable, and 1/3 should have been scrapped during the planning stages.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3145 (isolation #5) » Thu Sep 22, 2022 4:48 pm

Post by Somnus »

It can, but it's not always a good thing. The pistol and the chaingun (and I believe the plasma rifle) will hit with 100% accuracy on the first two rounds fired (as long as your aim isn't way off). After that, holding down the fire button will give you less accurate results. So the proper way to use the chain gun is to fire it in short bursts (just a few bullets at a time). Hold the fire button for a couple shots, release, quickly hold it again, etc.

So in, for example, maps in Doom 2 where there are enemies far away on rooftops, you can take them down with 100% shooting accuracy with stuff like the pistol or chaingun by doing quick bursts instead of just holding down the fire button continuously.

I'm playing through Ultimate Doom tonight start to finish. Somehow missed one item in E1M6 and couldn't find it even after circling the whole map twice, so just moved on. I know it was some miniscule health or armor bonus, but I can't find it. Other than that, I 100%'ed all of Episode 1 so far. On to Episode 2. There's a handful of maps in E2, E3, and E4 where I don't remember how to get all the secrets.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3147 (isolation #6) » Thu Sep 22, 2022 5:00 pm

Post by Somnus »

Yeah I thought for sure it was in the maze somewhere. Couldn't find it in there. Then checked the room with the yellow doors, then went back to the trap room where you get the red key. I have no clue lol.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3151 (isolation #7) » Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:14 am

Post by Somnus »

Is this from a custom WAD? I don’t think there’s anything like that in the official games. There’s very few switches or doors I can think of in Doom/Doom 2 that require shooting to open them, but they can be opened with any weapon (including the fist/chainsaw).

And I’m guessing since you mentioned the super shotgun, Doom 1 isn’t in the equation here.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3153 (isolation #8) » Mon Sep 26, 2022 1:31 pm

Post by Somnus »

I suppose it could in theory, but I don’t think there’s a way to differentiate between what weapon is hitting the switch to open it. And I think you’d have a hard time building a map in a way that only splash damage specifically from that one weapon would be able to reach doors/switches.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3154 (isolation #9) » Mon Sep 26, 2022 2:21 pm

Post by Somnus »

Kinda funny. There’s a map in TNT:Evilution that I really like (might be map 15?) where there’s like a pain elemental and a cacodemon stuck behind a wall at the outer border of the map, and they’re built to be deaf. They’re only triggered to emerge and engage with you via sight...but they can’t see you.

The only way to truly 100% the map is to hit something near that wall with like the rocket launcher and hope that the splash damage hits them to trigger them. It’s hard to do and luck dependent, so 100% in competitive speed runs of the map don’t require you to technically get EVERY kill.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3157 (isolation #10) » Mon Sep 26, 2022 3:59 pm

Post by Somnus »

I’ve now done that with episodes 1-3, some of E4, and about 2/3 of Doom 2. I learned how to 100% E4M1 (Hell Beneath) last night. All these years, it barely seemed possible. Pretty satisfying to have it down now.

I haven’t played TNT in quite a while, but I’m going to load it up and see if it’s the map I think it is.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3160 (isolation #11) » Mon Sep 26, 2022 4:49 pm

Post by Somnus »

Ok. As far as the official Doom IWADs (Doom/Ultimate Doom, Doom 2: Hell on Earth, Final Doom: The Plutonia Experiment, and Final Doom: TNT Evilution), these are the maps I know of where 100% is either impossible to obtain, extremely luck dependent, or cannot be obtained by conventional means. It's possible that there's a few more, but I'm not nearly as well versed in the two Final Doom IWADs as I am in Doom and Doom 2. I'll put the detailed explanations of why in spoilers.

Ultimate Doom:
E1M8: Phobos Anomaly
E4M3: Sever the Wicked
E4M7: And Hell Followed

Doom 2:
15: Industrial Zone
27: Monster Condo

The Plutonia Experiment:
11: Hunted

TNT Evilution:
15: Dead Zone

Spoiler:
Phobos Anomaly: Because the final room "kills" the player, obtaining all the kills in this room is quite difficult to do. Normally, 63% kills is considered the normal "maximum" in competitive Doom, even though more than that can be obtained by quickly getting some kills in the final room.

Sever the Wicked: In the first version of Doom 2, Map 25 (Bloodfalls), which was Shawn Green's first map he designed, has 0 secrets. In later versions, it has 2 secrets. Infamously one of the secrets in that map is an empty room on Ultra Violence and Nightmare (on lower difficulties, it contains a BFG). Once again, we have a Shawn Green map with some hilarious broken secrets. Likely due to a poor copy and paste job while designing the map, 18 stairs in a row are tagged as secrets, plus the room at the top with the megacharge. These can be obtained normally, but it's hilariously dumb. However, right before these, there are two torches that are tagged as secrets. You would have to literally step inside the torches to tag these two secrets, so they can only be obtained with the idclip code.

And Hell Followed: There are two secrets at the same location that involve an invulnerability sphere. The door that opens to the invulnerability sphere is too thin for the player to tag, and the ledge to the invulnerability sphere is too high up to stand on. Both of these must either be tagged via the idclip code, or by using the Cyberdemon's rockets to boost you onto the ledge. The door itself 100% requires idclip to tag.

Industrial Zone: The speedrunner, Zero Master, found a way to obtain this secret only a few years ago. One of Doom's creators and map designers, John Romero, even tweeted about it when it was discovered. There's a portal on a ledge that's too thin for the player to normally stand on and tag the secret. There's a hilariously dumb way to tag it by luring a pain elemental all the way to the portal, and having him spawn a Lost Soul "into" the player. This pushes the player ever so slightly backwards, just enough to tag the secret. This secret is not considered necessary for 100% speedruns, as until a few years ago, it was deemed impossible to trigger without the idclip code. Even now, it requires a painfully slow method of luring the Pain Elemental all the way to the portal.

Monster Condo: There's a secret that's only obtainable in the first 30 seconds of the map. After that, a wall closes over the area and it cannot be obtained. This is by design though. As long as the player is aware of it, it can be obtained normally. You just have to get to it as soon as the map begins. However, there is another broken teleporter secret in this map that isn't considered necessary in 100% speedruns. It IS possible to tag this secret with a very precise wall-running technique, but it is quite difficult to do.

Hunted: There's two exits at the end of the map. The one on the left just ends the map normally. The one on the right brings you into a room with a damaging floor and 4 Arch Viles. Much like the end of Phobos Anomaly, this map ends with the player "dying" or close to it. It's nearly impossible to kill the final 4 Arch Viles, even with a BFG shot. These 4 kills are not considered necessary for 100% completion, as they are EXTREMELY unlikely to obtain before the map ends.

Dead Zone: The Cacodemon and Pain Elemental behind the outer wall cannot be accessed normally. I believe something was SUPPOSED to trigger this wall to lower, but it never does. The only way to get them to come out is by hitting any floating enemy ABOVE their location with the rocket launcher and hoping that the splash damage hits them, forcing them to emerge. However, this is tricky to do, requires a fair bit of luck, and these two kills are not currently deemed necessary for 100% completion in competitive play.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3162 (isolation #12) » Mon Sep 26, 2022 5:05 pm

Post by Somnus »

Sure thing. Helped me too to have everything listed now that I’m trying to learn 100% for everything.
User avatar
Somnus
Somnus
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
Somnus
Goon
Goon
Posts: 763
Joined: January 3, 2022

Post Post #3168 (isolation #13) » Mon Oct 03, 2022 11:37 pm

Post by Somnus »

Ah nice nice. I did that last week and then have been working on Episode 4 separately. I can now 100% all of E4 (except for 4 secrets that require the idclip code to tag since they're broken). I still need to pick a day to string it all together in one deathless playthrough. Should only take me a few hours some night this week.

In the meantime, I moved on to learning to 100% the remaining maps of Doom 2 that I'm not all that confident in at the moment. I kinda skipped over 15 (Industrial Zone) for the time being, because I need to practice that wonky broken secret that is technically possible to get through some pretty ridiculous means. I've only got a few maps left and then I'll have to string together a 100% deathless playthrough of that as well in the next week or two.

And then back to trying to learn all of Doom 1 and Doom 2's maps 100% from pistol starts.

And then learn Tnt: Evilution and then Plutonia Experiment.

And then there's some really iconic custom-made WADs that are kind of mandatory to play through at some point. I'm going to be playing Doom for the next 5 years at this rate.

Not that they're new to me by any stretch, but man, most of the Doom 2 Hell maps are really underwhelming.

Return to “The Arcade”