Family Guy Mafia - Game Over

[elvis_knits]

HI

[elvis_knits]

vote Greasy spot

for still having a nibbler avatar. Behind the times, sir!

[elvis_knits]

I know what it means. Another word for a... "working" woman?

[elvis_knits]

I think so... Nice shot mafia with adel-mod? I think you NKed me.

I don't feel right voting anyone who loves survivor, so

unvote greasy spot; vote hybris

[elvis_knits]

I don't think charter really has a post restriction. Faking it is probably just a joke.

[elvis_knits]

On closer examination, looks like just KMD with it, and Tom style restriction...Or one of them, anyway. Charter's quote made me think what I said before.

I wonder what he meant when he said you're wrong.

[elvis_knits]

I guess, it's just that I can't see KMD being other than Tom and I can't see KMD knowing what role Charter has.

[elvis_knits]

Let's just try to adhere to this:

Non post restricted people should neither be acting like they have post restrictions or acting like characters. It will only manage to end badly.

[elvis_knits]

One more question. If it is fake, where you attempting to make a soft claim to reference later?

This question seems loaded.

[elvis_knits]

Soft claims are scummy. Nobody's going to be like "oh yeah I'm scum and I was faking a PR and trying to set up a soft claim."

Or did you mean breadcrumb?

[elvis_knits]

Most important things I see going on: llama is interrogating zilla. zilla doesn't like being questioned. Hybris answers questions for zilla (when llama asked why zilla was voting PP, Hybris answered for her).

I don't mind llama asking questions. That's good. I wonder why he's not voting zilla since he seems to have a problem with her, but w/e.

I don't like Hybris jumping into the situation to answer questions for zilla. This is why: hybris already came into the game moaning about it being unserious but not doing anything to change things. Then she shows she is following along with llama/zilla argument, and even helps by reposting zilla's reasons -- but she never adds any opinions of her own. It's a pattern of unhelpfulness, and of no attempt at scum hunting.

[elvis_knits]

I don't understand how one can play this game without using WIFOM to some extent. Not all WIFOM is created equal. For example, scum may make some sacrifices in order to appear more town. However, if the sacrifices are too great, it may be valid to say scum would not go so far just to establish a more townish image. I think that this entire game is WIFOM. We have to recognize that using WIFOM is often not going to lead us anywhere, but at times, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. (As long as we take speculation as speculation, not as fact, of course!)

So I have no problem with Kmd's WIFOM.

I think that flavor analysis is not useful and may send the town on the wrong track, but I don't necessarily see it as scummy. It's one of a few ways to pull us out of the random voting stage. However, I don't like Zilla's attempt to clear Kmd just for (allegedly) being Tom Tucker. Based on the last game, I believe that FCC scum could be absolutely anyone. Pretty much every character in Family Guy has problems, so you could come up with an FCC "we sympathize with your plight, now come join our cause" letter (based on the last game) for about any character. Even if it doesn't follow the format of the last game, I still think it is a valid assumption that the FCC should be anyone. We cannot and should not attempt to condemn or clear any player based on their role name alone. The fact that Zilla is doing something like this so early in the game worries me. It seems like he is trying to lead the town in the wrong direction logic-wise. Also, the fact that he retracted it immediately is also suspicious. Sounds like he's trying to put that statement out there, but also not look entirely responsible for it.

I also want to know what tajo means by the "security of Kmd." So far this is the only post he's made that seems like it could be relevant, but he didn't really explain enough. I want to hear more from him and the other players who have been lurking/lurking in plain sight before I cast a real vote.

Unvote

LEt's not get too crazy with WIFOM. Sometimes I do use it in my own head (scum wouldn't do "x"), but I don't think it should be used as the main reason for voting a person, or even speculated on in the game too much. It's just too easy for scum to manipulate the town if they know we're open to too much WIFOM. And it leads to long distracting arguments that bore people and cause them to flake.

KMD's statement was something like "If I was scum I'd be voting zilla." I would much prefer he say why he thinks the people voting zilla are scummy or why the reasons to vote her are bad. Because that would be more rooted in argument than WIFOM.

[elvis_knits]

I retracted it. You can't keep holding me for saying something I'm not pushing. I was misinformed, and pushing forward that I'm scum because I once said Tom can't be FCC is stupid. Furthermore, it's not even that scummy to begin with, I'm just trying to draw conclusions. Can't someone draw the wrong conclusion about something? I mean, seriously. I ADMIT I WAS WRONG. If you can point out how in the hell my actions are scummy in that regard, go ahead.

A:"It's raining."
B:"No, it's just overcast."
A:"Oh, you're right. Sorry."
C:"OH MY GOD, YOU'RE SCUM!"

Trying to stop a discussion of your scummy statements by retracting them is really the scummiest thing I've seen you do.

You can't retract scummy statements. Well, I guess you can, but that doesn't stop them from being scummy when you said them.

Speculating that certain role can't be scum is inherintley flawed and makes me wonder if you have ulterior motives for wanting KMD cleared.

Can you tell me why you thought KMD role would make him town? Because I need to hear a good explanation, not a retraction.

[elvis_knits]

Yeah, I don't see why you're voting Mana_ku either. You don't give a reason in this post:

Oy, where to start?

First off, I've set the record straight, and I annul ANY assertion that I ever made that Tom must be non-FCC. STRIKE IT FROM THE RECORD. Is that so hard to do?

Nest, KMD's actualy playing more town than most of town, I feel. Maybe you people play an entirely new league and my intuition on players is totally off, but if there's anyone I feel is town at this point, it's KMD. If he's scum, he's doing a better job of blending than most.

On the question answering, it saved nobody of anything. What convoluted logic is that that I could have answered "Why do you suspect Puta?" in a way that would incriminate either of us?

Honestly, I'm seeing better candidates finally, but I hate to take off my vote on someone who I suspected who subsequently went into hiding. I hate that scum can stay silent and their transgressions are forgotten.

Unvote: Puta Puta
Vote: Mana_Ku

for horrible logic.

It just looks like you're backing down because people are questioning you and you want to make it all go away so you switch your vote.

[elvis_knits]

Zilla self-voting and saying she won't post again, and then posting less than an hour later to unvote herself... is worrying to me. Self-destructing people are sometimes town and sometimes scum -- I've seen it go both ways. But the fact that she says she probably won't post again and then posts less than an hour later to unvote herself? That seems manipulative to me. Like she never meant to try to lynch herself. And the "this is probably my last post" was just a ploy.

Hybris is still scummy but zilla more.

unvote; vote zilla

[elvis_knits]

I've seen scum do it... just like this...

[elvis_knits]

If I needed an excuse to vote you, I could have done it a long time ago instead of trying to get info out of you. If I'm bloodthirsty, then why are you voting hybris? You're just going to the next largest wagon, and not thinking of any of your own reasons for doing so. That way you can blame it on KMD if things go bad with hybris -- he put forth the reasoning, not you.

[elvis_knits]

I understand what Charter means.

Wolf made a statement advising Hybris that answering questions for others is bad, especially if you are town. Which is the sort of thing you would say to a player THAT YOU THINK IS TOWN.

If you think the player is scum, you wouldn't be advising them how to play better as town (since you don't think they're town). If you think the player is scum, you assume they did whatever because they are scum, not because they made an error in play. You don't advise scummy players how to look more townish.

I agree with Charter. This is a tell that wolframn thinks hybris is town, and he is voting for someone he thinks is town.

unvote, vote wolframnhart

[elvis_knits]

So you would vote someone for being scum and then advise them how they should play if they're town?

[elvis_knits]

So, I still think wolframn made a scum tell when he said "don't do "x," expecially if you're town." It's the kind of statement that seeps in if you're scum. It's the kind of thing that I try to avoid saying if I'm scum because it does tip your hand if anyone notices it.

I also am glad that zilla is contributing more, although I still have a problem with the self vote and "I'm not going to post again" statement, followed WITHIN THE HOUR with another post and an unvote. It's too manipulative.

And I agree with llama that Internet is almost purposely unhelpful.

[elvis_knits]

EK, you are making no sense with that. Wolf said that town shouldn't do something, and that makes whoever it was (Hybris?) scummy because town shouldn't be doing whatever it was. How is that implying any knowledge of that person being town?

KMD: let's look at wolf's post again, so neither of us mistakenly paraphrases anything.

Ok read up and I think it has been a interesting day 1 that is for sure.

With regards to the Zilla wagon, I can say while i don't like her huge bolded posting appeals to emotion, even if she was frustrated, that the posts don't help the town at all if she is town. They are gaudie and pointless, a regular sized bold to emphasis a point is ok now and then, but huge lettering? Give it a rest.

Hybris, to answer a question directed to another player is never a good thing, especially if you are town. By answering a question for someone, even if it is just quoting what they said, you are effectively stopping another players scum hunting and depriving the rest of the players whatever answer the questioned player would have responded with, so in other words you can either effectively save a scum player that was questioned, or make a town player that was questioned become scrutinized because you are defending them without cause or being asked to. The fact that you lurked after that and have done nothing to contribute to the game thus far makes you highly suspect in my books, enough to warrant a

vote Hybris

.

This entire part is treating Hybris like he knows she's a misguided townie and wants to help her play better so people don't find her scummy:

Hybris, to answer a question directed to another player is never a good thing, especially if you are town. By answering a question for someone, even if it is just quoting what they said, you are effectively stopping another players scum hunting and depriving the rest of the players whatever answer the questioned player would have responded with, so in other words you can either effectively save a scum player that was questioned, or make a town player that was questioned become scrutinized because you are defending them without cause or being asked to.

That whole portion is wolf giving advice to Hybris about how she can look less scummy. Nowhere does it say or imply that she has scummy motivations for her actions. In fact it sounds to me like he assumes she is town.

[elvis_knits]

Has anybody looked at Xtoxm's posts in isolation? A lot of one-liners. A lot of short posts. Very general. Not one semi-large case. I seem to remember much more in the Family Guy mini.

A lot of short posts is what I expect from xtoxm... he's sorta famous for double, triple, quad posting himself with one liners. He doesn't strike me as scummy this game. But more info is always good, so it would be good if he talked a bit more.

I've gotta read the last few pages to catch up on everything else.

[elvis_knits]

Hybris, to answer a question directed to another player is never a good thing, especially if you are town. By answering a question for someone, even if it is just quoting what they said, you are effectively stopping another players scum hunting and depriving the rest of the players whatever answer the questioned player would have responded with, so in other words you can either effectively save a scum player that was questioned, or make a town player that was questioned become scrutinized because you are defending them without cause or being asked to.

That whole portion is wolf giving advice to Hybris about how she can look less scummy. Nowhere does it say or imply that she has scummy motivations for her actions. In fact it sounds to me like he assumes she is town.

I'm still seeing it the same way. Answering for another player isn't good. I agree with that. Answering for another player

IF

you are town, just as bad. If you want to argue that Wolf is seeing more bad play than scummy actions, that's fine. If you are going to try to tell me that Wolf claimed to KNOW that Hybris is town, and then voted Hybris, I'll tell you it's craplogic.

I think that wolf is saying there that Hybris's actions are more townie bad play than scummy. Which implies that he thinks she's town. And you don't vote for someone you think is town. Wolf is trying to advise her how to play better as a townie, and then voting her for being scum.

I can see your point that town sometimes make a statement like the supposed "tell" ("especially if you're town"). I think that scum would say something like that as a slip more often than a town would say that as an accident. That's why it's a "tell." Tells aren't 100%, but it's something scum do more often than town.

But even if I concede the "tell" to you, and agree that wolf could have made that mistake as town, it doesn't explain why wolf made that whole paragraph trying to help hybris play better as a townie, and then voted her for being scum.

[elvis_knits]

Reading Puta in isolation is really bad...

He hops around a few wagons in the voting stage, then when forbiddan votes him, makes this post:

forbid OMGUS,

Which is pretty strongly worded WHEN YOU DON'T VOTE THE PERSON. That's the thing that bothers me. Puta seems like he doesn't care about changing his vote or being a wagon-whore, yet doesn't vote forbiddan even though he makes the OMGUS reference with the "you gonna get raped" bear.

Then he throws a FOS at hybris. For someone who came into the game voting up a storm, Puta is not using his vote effectively at all -- not backing up his suspicions with votes.

Then there's fighting with forbiddan. Thi post really caught my eye:

1. HE
2. you can read my mind? that i am deliberately using this as a way not to contribute?
3. we all know your safe claim is a drunk dude when in reality u r mafia

at least build a stronger case against me, okay? kthnxbai.

Safe claim? Do mafia have safe claims in this game? How does Puta know that? It's not exactly standard. I think we discussed this in the last FG mini too.

In addition... Puta is still not voting forbiddan! Puta plainly calls forbiddan mafia, yet isn't voting forbiddan. WHY? It's possible forbiddan is a buddy... but there are other reasons Puta might not vote her. 1)Puta doesn't actually think forbiddan is mafia or 2)Puta is scared of getting in more trouble by voting forbiddan. Any way you slice it, not voting someone you openly call scum... is a scummy thing to do.

Nobody seems willing to go with me on wolframn, so I will vote for Puta. Now that I've reread him, I think it's he might even be scummier and the case against him better.

unvote: wolf; Vote: Puta Puta

[elvis_knits]

OMG I just figured out who Puta Puta is.

[elvis_knits]

I don't think it's gimbo. xtoxm... PP also lives in England, if I recall...

Also:

@Zilla - Why did you feel the need to vote for and unvote TI in your last post without giving any real reasons for the vote?

I agree that was weird. It's the kind of thing you might just delete if you're not going to actually vote for TI, or say something about him without voting him if you're just going to unvote. What's up with that?

[elvis_knits]

:cookie for tajo:

[elvis_knits]

I know. It's over now.

I see no reason why PP should have been so hesitant to vote people after the initial bandwagon hoping. And why ANYONE would call someone outright scum without voting them? Doesn't make much sense unless you're scum.

[elvis_knits]

A lot of short posts is what I expect from xtoxm... he's sorta famous for double, triple, quad posting himself with one liners. He doesn't strike me as scummy this game. But more info is always good, so it would be good if he talked a bit more.

True, but has he double, triple, quad posted himself in this game, or just posted single one liners most of the time?

I'd vote Xtoxm if no one wants to lynch Hybris yet. I'm suspicious of both.

Do you dislike anything he has said/done, or just the fact that he's posting one-liners? I think a combination of both would be more telling.

[elvis_knits]

Zilla throws temper tantrum when she's very far from lynch.

Zilla self-votes and says she won't be posting any more, then unvotes less than an hour later.

Zilla dislikes Charter's case on wolframn, calls it scummy, then votes wolframn.

In addition to charter, attacking me and xtoxm with vague or nonexistent reasons. We were the ones on her wagon. Coincidence?

[elvis_knits]

Elvis: I've laid out why I suspect you long ago, you've generally been behind Charter every step of the way, even before his poor logic on Wolframn, you've been building poor cases, and you've been skewing information. You also apparently deleted that post... ?

Where? All I remember is you saying "I suspect elvis again."

As far as I can tell, you're just OMGUS'ing everyone on your wagon.

[elvis_knits]

Catching up...

[elvis_knits]

TM is definitely acting anti-town. Although, having played with him before, and lynched him as town (BM's recently completed Mystery Mafia), I can't say that anti-town manner actually means he's anti-town.

I notice llama is advocating TM or TI lynch for similar reasons. TM's anti-townness is more blatant and characteristic of his play in general, while TI is more unhelpful, and uncharacteristic of my sense of his general playstyle. Which makes me think TI would be a better lynch if it's between those two. Although TM is not a bad lynch either. Because you don't want to set a precedent in games where you allow anti-town behavior because of a meta, or whatever -- because that severely decreases your chances of finding scum when you excuse outright scumminess. Then you start to lynch people for being too-townie, and all manner of dumb things and you lose the game.

So I could go along with either of these lynches, but would still rather lynch PP or Zilla.

[elvis_knits]

Also, not a fan of this post:

I don't really see the case on TM, but then again I guess that is the point. He hasn't posted at all [exageration] and when he does post its usually something quiet scummy. So, that is the case I believe. and I can support a lynch on someone with a case like that (since he hasnt posted at all)

unvote, vote: TonyMontana

He says how he doesn't see the case, then outlines the case and says TM is quite scummy, then votes the guy. I'm not seeing where CC doesn't see the case. I think he sees it pretty well...

Something about it seems manufactured.

[elvis_knits]

Furthermore, I'm going to say that Hybris appears linked to Tony. If Tony flips scum, I'd be onto Hybris next because he's softly defending Tony.

I didn't notice much of a link.

[elvis_knits]

I'm again getting the bad vibes from Llama, the "acting town" feeling.

I find this similar to the "too townie" fallacy. I've personally never seen scum who are that great that they're just too townish, and you have to lynch them for being un-scummy. When you take an active role in the town it just increases the chance you screw up sooner or later. So I have no problem with llama being vocal, and I think you objection to him "controlling" the town is not really an issue. I don't think he's controlling the town. He's stating his opinions forcefully, and that's a good thing. If he's town it's good, and if he's scum it's good because it increases our chances of catching him.

I don't think you've really said you find llama "too townie" but your arguments seem similar to me. Unless you can point to something scummy he's said or done that is scummy, I find your pursuit of him scummy. Scum don't want a vocal townie running the show and building a concensus. They want to divide and manipulate and flip our standards for judging scum (so that we lynch people for being too townie and dismiss obv scum as being too obvious to be scum).

[elvis_knits]

But how do you know when someone is

acting

town as opposed to

being

town? The argument has the same problems for me that "too townie" does.

Unless you can show where you a person is not being genuine in their behavior/feelings, then the whole argument is just wrong.

[elvis_knits]

I have to catch up as I wasn't here much over the holiday...

[elvis_knits]

Coming off as controlling is scummy simply because it's the best position to be in when you are scum. If you're calling the shots, town's going to lynch itself stupid while you slide by.

I disagree. Town usually turns on whoever is pushing the mislynches. It's natural to suspect the guy who is steering the town when the town is losing bad.

[elvis_knits]

I guess I am going to vote

Hybris

Not really a reasson. I am probley going to change but I am really tired and have to go to school.

And scumdar goes off the charts.

I haven't been a fan of TI this game... his lurking and unhelpfulness has seemed out of character. But this comment is one I agree with.

[elvis_knits]

unvote:vote TheInternet

don't know how much I'll be on before deadline, second best lynch today now that it was "clearlier" explained pour moi.

CC pretty scummy. Non contributor, jumps on bandwagon without explaining reasons, yet alludes to other people's reasons (failing to take responsibility), says he won't be around ot discuss or change vote. All of those things alone are a little scummy, but taken as a whole... really bad.

[elvis_knits]

More statements that set off scumdar:

I'll also hammer myself, to avoid no-lynch.

But I am inclined to believe at least one of you really pro-town duds out there is scum (i.e. Porochaz, Zilla, etc..among others)

I generally base of my scumhunting on how people answer my accusations.

TI: I haven't seen you do a lot of accusing or interrogating, so how are you judging anything? If that's the way you scum hunt, it looks like you haven't been doing it.

So I guess the lynch is between TM and TI... I see a case on both, though I think the TI one is stronger just because I've seen TM act like this and be town, and I've seen TI be more helpful when he was town. I'm still pretty suspicious of zilla, pp, wolf, and now CC also. But since it's close to deadline:

unvote, vote TheInternet

[elvis_knits]

I'll be honest. I don't really like either of the TI or TM wagons. TI is a better lynch than TM, but I'd prefer other people to them. Porochaz, Xtoxm, CC, EK to name a few.

I agree on CC... the others, not so much.

[elvis_knits]

I think TI is the way to go. TM not bad either, but I'm more sure on TI.

[elvis_knits]

It sucks that he's not here to claim, but lurking around deadline is scummy, so I'm not moving my vote.

[elvis_knits]

vote Nitro Styles

since maybe people will listen to the reasoning today.


Also:

vote Tony Montana

Didnt say the internet was wrong just TM was more right.

How can you get more scummy than TI? He was scum.

fos prozac

[elvis_knits]

I'm

greased up deaf guy

, townie.

[elvis_knits]

You think the two biggest wagons on day one were aimed at scum?

Probability = low.

[elvis_knits]

Apparently some people arent quite used to my playstyle when I gain confidence.

Do you think that TM is a good lynch today?

I think automatically dismissing it (because of his role-claim and because it's 'unlikely' that both the IT & TM bandwagons could have been legit) is suspicious. The safest place for a Scum to hide is onboard the impending bandwagon of a fellow Scummate. If the Scum were unlucky enough to have two of their members stuck on bandwagons, then it makes sense to 'spread out' and hid in the wagon.

In other words, the fact that Bandwagon #1 yielded positive results does not invalidate Bandwagon #2. The initial reasons for suspicion still exist, just as they did yesterday.

Now, is the probability lower? Yes. But dismissing it entirely is foolhardy, and premature.

Given the low probability, TM doesn't seem like the most important person to discuss at the moment.

[elvis_knits]

I think thats because CC wasn't being as outright scummy and as such was not distracting everybody. TM and TI were disrupting, CC was only lurking, if I remember correctly. That might not be the case though, if anybody has anything I'm forgetting, feel free to speak up.

Also, I think CC never has any original thoughts. Look at his last post. He just summarizes the general consensus without even stating any strong feelings. I often see scum that will go with the flow of the game thinking that will not upset anyone and they can coast by. But it makes me suspicious if you don't have any original thoughts and/or strong feelings. Shows you aren't trying to find scum and you don't really care who dies.

[elvis_knits]

I just like his avatar.

[elvis_knits]

oh and I'd just like to point out, that Charter's case still amounts to "especially if you're town" in case you had all forgotten.

It's also about how wolf/NS/you tried to push the wagon off TI and onto TM. There was a lot of suspect interraction between wolf and TI, and TI was scum. I think llama put some quotes up about it in case you didn't get to that part yet.

[elvis_knits]

Bonnie was in the first game too and she was scum there. Makes me think she wouldn't be scum again, but I guess that's WIFOM.

Um, Ive seen searching masons before. I've been in a game before where a "child" could be born. Raj's freaktown... I was able to choose someone if I had alcohol and a certain amount of items and have "sexy time" with them. In that game, the child would have 50/50 chance of being your allignment, if the father's allignment was different. And the three of you would sort of be a mason trio with no guarantee of allignment. I think farside was in that game. And we know she likes babies. I think the role makes sense. Allignment is not for sure though.

[elvis_knits]

unvote

I want to move my vote to someone who pushed TM wagon over TI... I meant to do some research but haven't had the time. From memory, thinking BA, Poro... I'm sure there are others to think about too.

[elvis_knits]

Sorry I've been really busy with family and such... I will look back through the recent happenings...

[elvis_knits]

Vote count:
ZONEACE 2 vote: (charter, BlakAdder)
Porochaz 1 vote: (Kmd4390)
TonyMontana 2 vote: (forbiddanlight, Acid Flux)
charter 3 vote: (ZONEACE, Porochaz, CoheedCambria09)
tubby 1 vote: (LlamaFluff)
Hybris 1 vote: (RestFermata)
BlakAdder 1 vote: (Zilla)

That's the last VC...

I don't think charter is scum. I'm not so keen on zone being scum after that claim. TM is fail since I didn't think his behavior yesterday was out of character, and also, I think the odds of both our top vote getters from yesterday being scum is not likely (not enough for me to be looking hard at him a tthis point).

BA appeals to me most for how he favored TM over TI yesterday.

Pororchaz also an option since I think he was somewhat the same as BA (pushing TM over TI). Although I just don't buy into the truth or dare BS that KMD was talking about.

vote Blakadder

oh and MErry Christmas!

[elvis_knits]

Sorry I've had like no time for my games this week with the holiday and car crashes and such...

I do want to respond to kmd's case. I don't plan to ignore it, but the post of his is hella long and I can't do it now.

In the interest of moving this town toward lynch, I'm going to:

unvote BA; vote tubby

His participation is pretty much active lurking... not much content. This is the part that is fishiest to me, and I think others have mentioned it but I'll throw my two cents in.

ok finally caught up,, sheesh that took for ever!!!

i here is what i think,

TI wagon badd i think he has actually been helpful granted not here alot but i have notice that everyone in this game goes missing for a few pages then eventually comes back

TM not really helping much, that diddn't show up when i read him in isolation but when i read the thread through it showed,

zilla has been all over the place,,so i really don't have a good read ,, so i will call zilla a person of interest not really a suspect but not really a help either

vote TM

for not being very helpful at all

Defense of TI, vote on TM over TI. To me, TM and TI had similar problems, being unhelpful to town. I chose to vote TI because I have seen him be helpful in other games, and not here. The inconsistency in his game made me think he was scum. How a person read TI and found him helpful, I don't know. So it's not so much that he found TM unhelpful , which I I agree TM was not too helpful. But finding TI helpful doesn't make any sense.

[elvis_knits]

I could go for hybris lynch since I didn't like her early yesterday. This is what I wrote about her back in the day:

I don't like Hybris jumping into the situation to answer questions for zilla. This is why: hybris already came into the game moaning about it being unserious but not doing anything to change things. Then she shows she is following along with llama/zilla argument, and even helps by reposting zilla's reasons -- but she never adds any opinions of her own. It's a pattern of unhelpfulness, and of no attempt at scum hunting.

This is a sort of gut/behavioral tell kind of thing that I go on early game. But since I don't think charter is scum, I think hybris is the best alternative.

[elvis_knits]

unvote; vote hybris

I think that's 7 on hybris -- L-2.

[elvis_knits]

First off its nice to hear a case more then "I think Llama is the SK" and "meta", oh wait, thats all the case against me.

Did someone call you SK? I don't remember that. Comments like that can be very suspicious, depending who said it when. Like usually a mafia player will call someone an SK, because they know who is in the mafia, so they're not really looking for that. Or sometimes an SK will call someone else the SK, trying to throw suspicion off htem (when it actually tips people off). Making a distinction between types of scum is usually a tell. (Unless there's a good reason, like a buddy relationship, town usually don't distinguish between type of scum).

Also, I agree, RF's investigation was TM and he came up town.

[elvis_knits]

Don't forget my EK case.

Oh, should I respond to it? I don't even remember what was in it.

[elvis_knits]

Ok, building a case with a post restriction is hard, so I'm going to go without it again. I feel like the restriction is forcing me to not say as much as I'd normally like to. I don't agree with the cases on Zone, Charter, Nitro, or TM. I'm getting a scummy read off of EK. Here's my case:

I don't think charter really has a post restriction. Faking it is probably just a joke.

On closer examination, looks like just KMD with it, and Tom style restriction...Or one of them, anyway. Charter's quote made me think what I said before.

I wonder what he meant when he said you're wrong.

I guess, it's just that I can't see KMD being other than Tom and I can't see KMD knowing what role Charter has.

Let's just try to adhere to this:

Non post restricted people should neither be acting like they have post restrictions or acting like characters. It will only manage to end badly.

These are consecutive posts. Nothing between them. Nothing taken out of any of them. EK is discussing the post restriction(s) and nothing else. Why is this scummy? It does nothing as far as scum hunting (why I do always get the typo of scum "hinting"?) and is a way to still participate. Scum jump on things like this all the time. It's just like in a newbie game where a theory discussion comes up, and a scum IC jumps all over it to look like a key contributor when they are actually doing nothing for the town. That's what I'm reminded of with all of this post restriction discussion. Not that it's bad to discuss at first, but some scum hunting around that time would be nice.

Please look at the time stamp on those posts. They were all made on the same day, within the same hour. Within about 20 minutes. We were all chatting, posting back and forth, trying to figure out the posting restriction stuff. In theory, I agree with you that "not sucm hunting" is a scum tell, but to say that I wasn't scum hunting because I made four posts in a row, within twenty minutes of each other, that only speculated on PR's... that doesn't mean anything. That is not evidence that I wasn't scum hunting.

Also, speculating on posting restrictions is indeed scum hunting if you're trying to figure out if someone is faking it. Because a faker is usually scum.

SO... I wasn't just blindly arguing theory with no implications to the game or scum hunting. I was trying to figure out if people were faking post restrictions.

One more question. If it is fake, where you attempting to make a soft claim to reference later?

This question seems loaded.

Now this is still about the post restriction, but is starting to go somewhere. Except why not elaborate on the question being loaded? Why not call Blak scummy for it? Just a one liner accusation isn't going to get much attention. But again, you are posting, so you aren't lurking.

This is stupid, KMD. I was trying to get BA to talk because I thought his question was scummy, but possibly only because of phrasing, so I was trying to draw him out, see what he really meant. And usually the more someone talks, the more you can judge if they're scum. I was hoping BA would dig himself a hole if he's scum.

And why are you throwing in the lurking thing? Do you think I am lurking? Why are you just throwing that in there like you've proved I'm lurking?

Soft claims are scummy. Nobody's going to be like "oh yeah I'm scum and I was faking a PR and trying to set up a soft claim."

Or did you mean breadcrumb?

Ok, so here is a follow-up to the accusation. The question at the end bothers me though. Two reasons. One, it's a picky detail about his word choice. Two, it gives him a backdoor answer to your accusation. I'm starting to see a possibility at an EK-Blak scumpair.

I do see where my attack on BA was soft, so I will give you that. But I didn't feel super-strong about it, and mostly wanted to give him a chance to talk more in hopes that he would give me something more concrete. I wasn't in rabid-dog mode, I agree. But why are you automatically assuming we're both scum and I was bussing him? Did anyone attack BA over this point? Not that I remember. Which would make it REALLY easy for me to just not attack BA if we were scum buddies. There would be no reason for me to call him out on this.

Most important things I see going on: llama is interrogating zilla. zilla doesn't like being questioned. Hybris answers questions for zilla (when llama asked why zilla was voting PP, Hybris answered for her).

I don't mind llama asking questions. That's good. I wonder why he's not voting zilla since he seems to have a problem with her, but w/e.

I don't like Hybris jumping into the situation to answer questions for zilla. This is why: hybris already came into the game moaning about it being unserious but not doing anything to change things. Then she shows she is following along with llama/zilla argument, and even helps by reposting zilla's reasons -- but she never adds any opinions of her own. It's a pattern of unhelpfulness, and of no attempt at scum hunting.

So in this one post, you go after 3 different people. You ask why Llama isn't voting Zilla. You follow the crowd in attacking Hybris for answering a question directed at Zilla. And you go after Zilla for not adding opinions. So after Blak, who you never voted, nor did you continue or dismiss the case, you have now mentioned 4 suspects. But no vote on any of them? Waiting to see what case sticks?

Please pay attention. I was already voting Hybris, and I saw no reason to change my vote. I still didn't like her behavior. BA, I felt was scummy but inconclusive, so I didn't change to him.

Basically this whole point is wrong because I was voting Hybris, and I wasn't "waiting to see what case stuck."

LEt's not get too crazy with WIFOM. Sometimes I do use it in my own head (scum wouldn't do "x"), but I don't think it should be used as the main reason for voting a person, or even speculated on in the game too much. It's just too easy for scum to manipulate the town if they know we're open to too much WIFOM. And it leads to long distracting arguments that bore people and cause them to flake.

KMD's statement was something like "If I was scum I'd be voting zilla." I would much prefer he say why he thinks the people voting zilla are scummy or why the reasons to vote her are bad. Because that would be more rooted in argument than WIFOM.

This is a lot like the PR discussion. It's just a post about why we shouldn't use too much WIFOM. That's a very general stance that one will likely keep in any game, regardless of alignment. Again, adds nothing to the game. (For the record, I see nothing wrong with WIFOM which I may have said already.)

This quote does have some general theory/philosophy, but AS IT APPLIES TO THE GAME. It's not just for fun. It's used as a way to explain why I don't like the statement you made about "If I was scum I'd be voting zilla." I'm not sitting on the sidelines making Dr. Mafia comments. I'm explaining my POV.

Trying to stop a discussion of your scummy statements by retracting them is really the scummiest thing I've seen you do.

You can't retract scummy statements. Well, I guess you can, but that doesn't stop them from being scummy when you said them.

Speculating that certain role can't be scum is inherintley flawed and makes me wonder if you have ulterior motives for wanting KMD cleared.

Can you tell me why you thought KMD role would make him town? Because I need to hear a good explanation, not a retraction.

I cut out the Zilla quote for purposes of length. This is in response to Zilla though. All this suspicion on her, YET STILL NO VOTE. Why, at this point, haven't you voted outside of joke votes? Plenty of suspects, but no votes. Not even an FoS. Is it because you don't want to draw attention to yourself?

I don't normally use FOS's. I just don't. Take a look at my games if you don't believe me. I don't think I FOSes anyone this game.

Also, I was still asking zilla questions, so that's why I didn't vote her, but I did vote her the next real-time day. See the next quoted post by me:

Zilla self-voting and saying she won't post again, and then posting less than an hour later to unvote herself... is worrying to me. Self-destructing people are sometimes town and sometimes scum -- I've seen it go both ways. But the fact that she says she probably won't post again and then posts less than an hour later to unvote herself? That seems manipulative to me. Like she never meant to try to lynch herself. And the "this is probably my last post" was just a ploy.

Hybris is still scummy but zilla more.

unvote; vote zilla

Finally a Zilla vote after she starts to look like an easy enough target, and an easy enough lynch.

Finally? Finally??? It was the next real-life day, and two posts later. You're totally stretching this.

I've seen scum do it... just like this...

I thought WIFOM was bad...?

What's your point?

If I needed an excuse to vote you, I could have done it a long time ago instead of trying to get info out of you. If I'm bloodthirsty, then why are you voting hybris? You're just going to the next largest wagon, and not thinking of any of your own reasons for doing so. That way you can blame it on KMD if things go bad with hybris -- he put forth the reasoning, not you.

Ok, let's look at what is going on here. EK is getting attacked for voting Zilla. For looking for excuses to vote Zilla more specifically. Still continues attacking Zilla, but with more sniping than anything. Keep this in mind.

Why do you call my reasons, an "excuse"? You're framing my actions in a way that is completely unsopported. It's totally the way you are choosing to read me, but not based on anything.

I understand what Charter means.

Wolf made a statement advising Hybris that answering questions for others is bad, especially if you are town. Which is the sort of thing you would say to a player THAT YOU THINK IS TOWN.

If you think the player is scum, you wouldn't be advising them how to play better as town (since you don't think they're town). If you think the player is scum, you assume they did whatever because they are scum, not because they made an error in play. You don't advise scummy players how to look more townish.

I agree with Charter. This is a tell that wolframn

thinks

hybris is town, and he is voting for someone he thinks is town.

unvote, vote wolframnhart

Did you keep it in mind? This is the NEXT post EK makes. Immediately after taking heat for the Zilla vote, EK jumps on probably the worst wagon I have ever seen. Why? Zilla's wagon was drying up, and EK needed somewhere else to go. So she jumps on this bad case.

Also, the bolded. That's not agreeing with Charter. Charter called it a slip because Wolf "knew" Hybris to be town. Not that he "thought" Hybris was town, and voted him anyway. You try to all out agree with Charter, but end up saying something completely different. This is just a bad vote.

This was a significant enough tell for me to change my vote. I had nothing to do with the zilla vote, and there's no reason for you to think it does. You're just CHOOSING to read me that way. I didn't abandon my feelings about zilla, but I went after something that I found very scummy in someone else. Why is that bad?

I did agree with Charter that wolf was scummy, but in a slightly different way, and that is what I was explaining. I think the only reason you think I am scummy, and the reason you are choosing to read me the way you are reading me is because you don't buy into this "tell." You fundamentally disagreed with my read of this "tell" and I think that is the root of your entire elvis-hate.

So, I still think wolframn made a scum tell when he said "don't do "x," expecially if you're town." It's the kind of statement that seeps in if you're scum. It's the kind of thing that I try to avoid saying if I'm scum because it does tip your hand if anyone notices it.

I also am glad that zilla is contributing more, although I still have a problem with the self vote and "I'm not going to post again" statement, followed WITHIN THE HOUR with another post and an unvote. It's too manipulative.

And I agree with llama that Internet is almost purposely unhelpful.

Backing up the Wolf vote. Backing down from Zilla, but still showing some suspicion so you can go back to it later. And now calling TI unhelpful, but not elaborating or specifically calling him scummy.

I won't quote them because this is getting too long, but go back and check for it if you need to. There are 3 consecutive posts from EK defending her Wolf vote. The very next post, she unvotes and votes Puta. It's the same as her Zilla vote. Start taking heat, and switch to another easy target.

This really is getting too long and too stupid. I don't know why you don't like that I back up my votes by continuing to attack a player while I vote them. And I don't understand why you thin kit's scummy for me to back up a vote on one player and then switch to another player in the next post. Doesn't everyone play like that? What else does a person do? Make a transition post where they say "I think my feeling are about to change, so I want to wanr you all ahead of time so you don't think it's too abrupt." Is that what other people do? If so, that's not how I play. I pick out who I think is scummy, question them/vote them, pursue until game is deadlocked/standstill or someone does something scummier. what is the problem?

Zilla throws temper tantrum when she's very far from lynch.

Zilla self-votes and says she won't be posting any more, then unvotes less than an hour later.

Zilla dislikes Charter's case on wolframn, calls it scummy, then votes wolframn.

In addition to charter, attacking me and xtoxm with vague or nonexistent reasons. We were the ones on her wagon. Coincidence?

Still attacking Zilla, yet never revoted Zilla. It seems as though EK's top choice for a lynch is Zilla. But EK isn't voting Zilla. Why? There are easier town targets out there.

Again... you are choosing to read me that way. This is all your skewed interpretation, and it's unsupported.

TM is definitely acting anti-town. Although, having played with him before, and lynched him as town (BM's recently completed Mystery Mafia), I can't say that anti-town manner actually means he's anti-town.

I notice llama is advocating TM or TI lynch for similar reasons. TM's anti-townness is more blatant and characteristic of his play in general, while TI is more unhelpful, and uncharacteristic of my sense of his general playstyle.

Which makes me think TI would be a better lynch if it's between those two.

Although TM is not a bad lynch either. Because you don't want to set a precedent in games where you allow anti-town behavior because of a meta, or whatever -- because that severely decreases your chances of finding scum when you excuse outright scumminess. Then you start to lynch people for being too-townie, and all manner of dumb things and you lose the game.

So I could go along with either of these lynches, but would still rather lynch PP or Zilla.

Manages to take the top 2 wagons here and say that both look scummy, but DOESN'T VOTE EITHER. I can see still trying to push Puta or Zilla until we are closer to the deadline. That's fine. What bothers me is that EK calls BOTH TI and TM scummy, and says she could go with a lynch on either. That's not taking a stance on one over the other until one wagon picks up more steam. It sets up a vote on whichever is needed at deadline.

Sorry, but they DID both look scummy. Can you tell me I'm wrong? No, because I am right. They both looked scummy. But please read my bolded statement... I thought TI was scummier. I was one of the people who advocated a TI lynch over TM and never voted TM. So... suck it.

Also, not a fan of this post:

I don't really see the case on TM, but then again I guess that is the point. He hasn't posted at all [exageration] and when he does post its usually something quiet scummy. So, that is the case I believe. and I can support a lynch on someone with a case like that (since he hasnt posted at all)

unvote, vote: TonyMontana

He says how he doesn't see the case, then outlines the case and says TM is quite scummy, then votes the guy. I'm not seeing where CC doesn't see the case. I think he sees it pretty well...

Something about it seems manufactured.

Same thing she did to Blak, Llama, and Hybris. Suspicions without elaborating or voting.

Later, finally does vote TI. I definitely think he was bussed by a buddy or two.

You're making no sense on this one. My point on CC was clear, I didn't need to elaborate. I didn't vote him because we needed to try to build a consensus at that point, not keep dividing our votes over so many different people. I wasn't about to start putting single votes on a guy who has no chance of being lynched. That's anti-town when you're facing a deadline.

And please look at the vote counts around the time when I voted TI, and the vote counts at the end of the day. I remember thinking at one point that TM would be lynched, but I really thought TI was scummier so I stuck to it. It would have been so much easier for me to vote TM and save TI if he was my buddy. They were very close. It really doesn't even make sense for me to have bussed TI like that.

[quote="KMD"

Also, I think CC never has any original thoughts. Look at his last post. He just summarizes the general consensus without even stating any strong feelings. I often see scum that will go with the flow of the game thinking that will not upset anyone and they can coast by. But it makes me suspicious if you don't have any original thoughts and/or strong feelings. Shows you aren't trying to find scum and you don't really care who dies.

Seriously, why haven't you voted him? And why did you vote NS? You said "maybe people will listen to the reasoning today." Is that still because of the "slip" that Charter "caught"?[/quote]

I can only vote one person at a time. Please get a life.

It's also about how wolf/NS/you tried to push the wagon off TI and onto TM. There was a lot of suspect interraction between wolf and TI, and TI was scum. I think llama put some quotes up about it in case you didn't get to that part yet.

Why not mention this when you voted?

It wasn't my point. It was llama's point...

Pororchaz also an option since I think he was somewhat the same as BA (pushing TM over TI). Although I just don't buy into the truth or dare BS that KMD was talking about.

vote Blakadder

oh and MErry Christmas!

So you chose Blak over Porochaz just because I am voting Porochaz? Any other reasons why Blak and not Poro?

We were scrambling looking for a lynch. I mentioned sme of the top vote-getters that I had some feeling about, trying to look for a consensus. I mentioned prozac because I have some bad feelings on him only because he was pushing TM so hard over TI.

Short version bulleted case:
-post restriction discussion (destracting and looks like an attempt to appear to be contributing)
-active lurking
-one-liner accusation at Blak
-too much attention to detail on "breadcrumb" vs. "softclaim"
-possible connection to Blak (admittedly very weak, especially after the Day 2 vote)
-4 suspects early, yet no vote
-Votes an easy target in Zilla
-contradicts anti-WIFOM stance with a WIFOM statement.
-the Wolf vote
-acknowledges Llama's point on TI without adding much of an opinion outside of saying he is "unhelpful"
-backs down from Wolf vote after taking heat. Switches to Puta, another easy target.
-constant attacks on Zilla without revoting. Instead, stays on Wolf or Puta.
-lack of stance as soon as TM vs. TI comes up.
-small snipes at CC
-NS vote. Seems to stem from Wolf's "slip", but later mentions a TI connection.
-No apparent reason for picking Blak over Poro after considering both as options

I think I have enough here to do this.

Unvote

Vote elvis_knits

So worth dropping the restriction for the day.

I'v ebeen working on this sutpid post for the last hour. I've answered all of it. I should write you a bullet pointed reaction, but too tired. But I really think almost all of this is a skewed reading of me because you don't agree with me on the wolf "tell" so you're looking for ways to find me scummy.

[elvis_knits]

CC I have no clue on, but given that the rest of the list is either proven town or I have them as town, I would not be too surprised if he was town as well.

This is a perfect example of LF off logic in this game. I can see where he comes from but I think that not because a confirmed town is in a group of players that means every player of the list is town also. Also, Fluff, no comments of my post?

It was basically - "Why is he alive?" which I really dont know how to respond to

Aren't a lot of the attacks on llama that he has been wrong about calling who is scum? Which makes the mafia not need to kill him.

Also, KMD, you're right I need to vote someone. I've been busy answering your questions, and haven't been compelled by the main vote-getters. I should be voting though. But I don't think llama is scum, and I don't think charter is scum. I used to think zoneace was scum, but his claim sounded legit, and the wagon disbanded yesterday on him. Why would people unvote him yesterday and then restart his wagon today? I'm not really understanding that. There are some voting patterns that I have a theory as to why they happen, but who people pull off a lynch and then restart it the next day, I don't have a theory on. Unless scum pulled off the lynch since zone basically is vanilla, and they were looking to lynch someone with a power role, or atleast force a power role to claim? But then why return to zone today? I don't know. Any other ideas?

There are still people swirling in my head from days past, BA, CC, but I need to look at them again before I vote, because I hardly remember what I was thinking.

[elvis_knits]

I'm gonna look at the TM vs. TI wagons and how they built to give us a sense of who was pushing TM over TI.

The height of the TM wagon:

Vote count:

Hybris 1 vote: (kloud1516)
Zilla 1 vote: (populartajo)
wolframnhart 1 vote: (charter)
charter 2 vote: (Hybris, Zilla)
Puta Puta 2 vote: (Xtoxm, Elivs knits)
Xtoxm 1 vote: (BlakAdder)
TonyMontana 8 votes: (RestFermata, LlamaFluff, CoheedCambria09, Knight of Cydonia, forbiddanlight, Puta Puta, wolframnhart, Porochaz)
Porochaz 1 vote: (Kmd4390)

Not voting:


TonyMontana
pacman281292
The Internet

In the next two vote counts, we see the TM and TI wagons tied, and we see tubby choose to vote TM over TI.

Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: 58

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

vote count:

Hybris 1 vote: (Spolium)
Zilla 1 vote: (populartajo)
Puta Puta 1 vote: (Xtoxm)
Xtoxm 3 vote: (BlakAdder, Zilla, Kmd4390)
TonyMontana 5 votes: (RestFermata, Knight of Cydonia, forbiddanlight, Nitro Styles, Porochaz)
The Internet 5 votes: (LlamaFluff, charter, CoheedCambria09, TonyMontana, Elivs knits)

Not voting:

Hybris
pacman281292
The Internet
tubby

vote count:

Hybris 1 vote: (Spolium)
Zilla 1 vote: (populartajo)
charter 1 vote: (Zilla)
Puta Puta 1 vote: (Xtoxm)
Xtoxm 1 vote: (BlakAdder)
TonyMontana 6 votes: (RestFermata, Knight of Cydonia, forbiddanlight, tubby, Nitro Styles, Porochaz)
Porochaz 1 vote: (Kmd4390)
The Internet 5 votes: (LlamaFluff, charter, CoheedCambria09, TonyMontana, Elivs knits)

Not voting:

Hybris
pacman281292
The Internet

Notice the difference between these next two vote counts. The only difference is BA throwing his vote on TM wagon. Last ditch effort to avoid TI lynch?

vote count:

Hybris 1 vote: (bigbaldguy31)
Zilla 1 vote: (populartajo)
Puta Puta 1 vote: (Xtoxm)
Xtoxm 1 vote: (BlakAdder)
TonyMontana 6 votes: (RestFermata, forbiddanlight, Nitro Styles, Porochaz, tubby, The Internet)
The Internet 8 votes: (LlamaFluff, charter, CoheedCambria09, TonyMontana, Elivs knits, Zilla, Kmd4390, Knight of Cydonia)

Not voting:

Hybris
Acid Flux

vote count:

Hybris 1 vote: (bigbaldguy31)
Zilla 1 vote: (populartajo)
Puta Puta 1 vote: (Xtoxm)
TonyMontana 7 votes: (RestFermata, forbiddanlight, Nitro Styles, Porochaz, tubby, The Internet, BlakAdder)
The Internet 8 votes: (LlamaFluff, charter, CoheedCambria09, TonyMontana, Elivs knits, Zilla, Kmd4390, Knight of Cydonia)

Not voting:

Hybris
Acid Flux

Some conclusions/intersting things to note:

RF and FL started the wagon on TM and both were town. But there is probably some scum in the rest of the wagon: NS, Prozac, tubby, TI (duh), BA.

Llama, charter, early voters on TI. IMO, this makes them look townish. I would expect a buss to come later. Zilla (first incarnation) and KOC were town. I even think it makes CC look more townish, although I have had some criticisms of him in the past.

Actually, I don't think I can definitively say that anyone on the TI lynch is very likely to be bussing since a TM lynch was very possible the whole way through, and it would have been stupid to push your buddy over to a lynch by one vote when you could just lynch another guy. I'm not saying there can't be scum on the TI wagon. It's just that the timing of the wagon and the closeness of the TM wagon would have made it much easier for scum to vote TM over TI.

So I think tubby and BA are scummiest from the TM wagon, and I also think some of the people who weren't choosing between the two people are scummy.

People not on either wagon: Hybris (town), AF, bigbaldguy(which I think now is zilla 2.0?), tajo, xtoxm(town).

I could definitely see a scum not wanting to buss TI, but not having the balls either to place a late vote on TM. So they just stay off either wagon.

My question to AF and tajo is: Why didn't you choose between the TM and TI wagons? The wagons were close and you could have effected the outcome. Didn't you care which of them were lynched? Did you have any read on either?

(Can't ask zilla this question because it was before she replaced bigbaldguy/kloud).

[elvis_knits]

EK, remember that when nobody expects you to bus, that's the best time to do it. It helps later to "clear" yourself. Don't be so quick to say TI voters were town.

Anything is possible. I just think it's much more likely they're town because TM lynch was always possible, so why buss your buddy to the point of lynch when you don't have to? And on day 1? It's possible that's the exact reason why a scum WOULD buss TI... to throw us off. But, really, percentages are against it because the wagons were so close it would have been so much easier to swing the wagon away from TI. It would have been SO much more tempting to vote TM.

Also, I'd support a Blak lynch.

He is one of my top suspects at this point, but I want to discuss all the possible people I mentioned from my analysis.

[elvis_knits]

Well, maybe I have to think on this some more, but I am not seeing what zilla could be claiming. Which is okay, I guess. Except she seemed to be agreeing with my analysis of the TM/TI wagons, and following the wagons to scum hunt. Which makes no sense if she thinks TM is not cleared as town. And why she didn't notice this piece of info earlier, I don't know.

I don't know what the llama wagon is all about.

AF, you are right that you had only just replaced into the game, and I didn't realize that. So, the fact that you weren't voting at the end of day one is not a positive or negative against you, IMO.

My question to AF and tajo is: Why didn't you choose between the TM and TI wagons? The wagons were close and you could have effected the outcome. Didn't you care which of them were lynched? Did you have any read on either?

I had both of them pegged as town and the inevitable but decent mislynch D1.

tajo, I still think you should want to make some distinction between the two, and have some say over who is lynched if it's between the two.

BA still scummier. Where is BA?

vote:Blakadder

BA, BA, come out and play!

[elvis_knits]

Llama, did you ever answer this?

First off its nice to hear a case more then "I think Llama is the SK" and "meta", oh wait, thats all the case against me.

Did someone call you SK?

[elvis_knits]

Interesting catch, Elvis. Im interested in Llama's answer to this.
I dont get what you are trying to say about the TM/TI dilemma. Could you rephrase it?

I am just interested why you didn't vote either of them.

I guess you already answered me, saying you thought they were both town. Which is a valid answer.

But did you think they were EQUALLY townish? You didn't think one was slightly more town than the other?

Staying off both wagons just makes you look like you didn't care who was lynched. Which is not pro-town.

[elvis_knits]

Interesting catch, Elvis. Im interested in Llama's answer to this.
I dont get what you are trying to say about the TM/TI dilemma. Could you rephrase it?

I am just interested why you didn't vote either of them.

I guess you already answered me, saying you thought they were both town. Which is a valid answer.

But did you think they were EQUALLY townish? You didn't think one was slightly more town than the other?

Staying off both wagons just makes you look like you didn't care who was lynched. Which is not pro-town.

Equally townish no. TBH, I thought at the moment that if any of them was scum, TM would had more probs of being scum. TI just felt weak townie to me.
Its not that I didnt care who was lynched. Its just that I dont usually play D1s if Im not generally interested. It also helps me survive through D3, D4, endgame where analysis is more precise.
Also I think that TI coming up scum doesnt add up to the idea of not caring who would be lynched. Scum would either be in the TM late votes or (less prob) in early TI voters.

So who on the TI wagon do you think is most likely to be scum?

Elvis, just interested, what were your thoughts of the TI/TM dilemma?

I thought TM was prob town, and then RF died and confirmed TM town. Now zilla is throwing a wrench into the works. I don't know what she is doing.

[elvis_knits]

LlamaFluff: -3 (This was pro-town on Day 1, but Day 2 has been a mess, he's pushed on two people who have claimed, then backed off. At best, he's got a broken scumdar and too much impetus. At worst, he's keniving scum playing outside of his group.

Actually, that seems to fit with self-aligned. Make that a -5, since we know self-aligned is in this game

)

Here is one of the times, I thought there was another but I didnt find it on a skim.

I'm always suspicious of people who seem able to tell SK from mafia. Most town will just lump them together as scum. When a person is able to make a distinction, it makes me think they have extra info (ie, they're scum).

[elvis_knits]

I consider scum= all types of scum. So mafia, SK's.

[elvis_knits]

We need to start calling these people: zilla1 and zilla2, KOC1 and KOC2. Are there any other reincarnated people?

[elvis_knits]

I just want to remember who forced LF to claim, since I never agreed with the wagon.

LlamaFluff 5 votes: (Kmd4390, ZONEACE, Porochaz, tajo, Zilla)

[elvis_knits]

We "forced" llama to claim? really now? That's a mighty bit of an over statement.

You force someone to claim by voting them close to a lynch. It's not an overstatement; it's the truth.

I just want to keep track of things I don't agree with, and see who overlaps.

For instance, prozac is showing up on a lot of my lists.

[elvis_knits]

Wagons I don't like: TM, LF.

[elvis_knits]

He's showing up on a lot of your lists and you only have two?

There's also charter, but I didn't think anyone would care about that one.

I don't think prozac and me have agreed on one vote this whole game. And he's getting no attention, even though he was on TM instead of TI (which should at least get him SOME scrutiny).

Prozac: what do you think of BA?

[elvis_knits]

Please give thoughts on BA.

[elvis_knits]

I helped lynch two scum. I argued TI over TM. I consistently questioned BA and said I found him scummy.

Please try again.

[elvis_knits]

Also... I had previous thought RF investigated TM. Her breadcrumb strongly suggests he was investigated innocent. But zilla saying she doubts that, and her being bus driver suggests she targetted RF N1. I have to check the wiki what a bus driver does... I think it changes the target of the player she targetted. Amirite?

[elvis_knits]

Okay, so zilla busdriver

The Bus Driver is a pro-town role who may choose to switch two players each night. Thus, any night choice performed on a switched player will affect the other player targeted by the Bus Driver. The Bus Driver's night choices are only valid for that same night.

For example, the Bus Driver switches John and Jack. That same night, a roleblocker targets John and a Goon targets Jack. It will be Jack to be roleblocked and John to be killed. The next night, those players will no longer be switched (unless the Bus Driver targets them again).

Given the randomness of his ability, the Bus Driver can end up either helping or harming the Town.

And zilla said this about RF investigating TM:

...

I too am scared that Llama might have been busing TI. I expect better logic from Llama than all this WIFOM he's been spitting out.

It's like he thinks that everyone who is town MUST have been on the TI wagon and everyone who is scum MUST have been on the TM wagon.

Personally I know that's not true.

...

She investigated somebody on TM's wagon.

Happy now?

So I think this means zilla switched TM with someone else on the TM wagon. So RF thought she was investigating TM, but actually got an innocent result on the other player, and zilla was trying to breadcrumb this.

I'm not usually a logic person, so somebody please think about this.

[elvis_knits]

Also, tubby is either awesome or scum. He had been gone for a while (was he VLA?), comes in after prod and hammers without giving any reasoning. Which suggests to me he didn't read anything, and voted/hammered blindly.

So either he has humungous balls or is scum and thought hammering his buddy would make him look town and he wouldn't have to pretend to actually have reasons for hammering.

[elvis_knits]

Because this sort of posting makes me feel not so good.

wow this is getting interesting now

[elvis_knits]

SO had you read the thread or no? Your sig says VLA for two weeks so did you have the time to read?

[elvis_knits]

As for llama's case... all of AF's votes seem weak/bad votes. Also that he hasn't had any real cases on the people he has voted. Also that he has just tried to bandwagon. Generally it seems like he doesn't care too much about this game or who dies in it... which is not pro-town.

Later, as far as voting to speed things up, I've already explained this.
I'm not used to Days that last 720 hours. That's ten time longer than how I usually play. So, was I getting impatient? Absolutely.

I would expect you to be more involved, more vocal, more quick-to-act if you're used to shorter games. Instead you've done basically nothing. So this explanation holds no water for me.

And since I don't seem to have the 'forum cred' to sway anyone to my line of thinking as far as a suspect, I can either throw away a vote, or join a bandwagon.

kmd already pointed out... this is stupid. "People don't know me and they won't believe me so I choose not to think for myself and just join other bandwagons." That's completely lame.

Then you OMGUS llama. (nevermind that he's the vig... but it's completely omgus).

All I can offer at this point is that my role has revealed that there may be some type of alignment conversion ability existing in the game.

Hmmmm... I call shenanigans because you said this:

To be honest, since my role has provided nothing useful whatsover

Allignment conversion ability? Like a cult? Is that what you mean? If that's true, and your role has info about it, then why would you say your role provides nothing useful. That makes no sense. I think you are faking.

unvote tubby; vote acid flux

Three days until deadline guys...

[elvis_knits]

The part I left out changes nothing for me. You first say your role is useless, then make scummy soft claims about possible cults.

If you were really a role that can detect allignment changes, then the information is useful, even if you have detected no changes. Sounds like you are claiming to have gotten the equivalent of all innocent results. How could that be useless?

And I'm not even that keen to believe there is a cult in the game since nobody has died and been revealed cult. Also, we've been having as many as three kills a night. Add a cult into the mix, and that sounds a little crazy.

[elvis_knits]

I guess I could believe that there is a role that investigated for cults, and there isn't a cult. Like a red-herring type of thing.

But the way AF made his role sound unimportant and useless, and then soft-claims something potentially very important, makes me think this is shenanigans.

[elvis_knits]

Freekin dead!:

The Internet - Francis Griffin – god worshiper (aka FCC mafia framer) – beaten to death day 1

Zilla - Meg Griffin - Townie - Killed Night one with exploding pants

Knight of Cydonia - Joe Swanson - Daddy - Shot Night 1

Xtoxm - Death – Time to kill (aka role blocker) - Beaten to death Night 1

Hybris - Diane Simmons - Townie- Trappled to death Day 2

ForbindenLight - Brian Griffin – Alcoholic (Aka JOAT) - shot in the head night 2
RestFermata-Stewie Griffin – Baby genius (aka Cop) - beaten and sucked dry by vampire kittens night 2

BlakAdder - Chris Griffin – Follower - beaten to death day 3

Zilla - Lois Griffin - Taxi service (aka Bus Driver)
Porochaz - Mort Goldman – Nerd (aka Doctor)
KOC - The Evil Monkey – Pointer (aka tracker)

Maybe I am stupid, but I thought that Chris Griffin being "follower" was just a scum name for goon in this game since the other scum name that we have killed was "god worshipper (aka FCC mafia framer)."

Although I guess "follower" does have a cult implication, and he isn't called "Follower (aka FCC mafia goon)," but just "follower" which makes it ambiguous.

Now that I think about it, it does seem possible that the FCC is some combination of mafia and cult, with the possibility to do both. I don't know if the night actions really add up for that though. I think the flavor suggests a FCC kill each night. So if the FCC can recruit, they are able to do both on the same night, or they haven't recruited. But since Chris was follower, that means they did recruit him. So they have to be able to do both on the same night.

I'm also confused why anyone would want to recruit BA who looked clearly scummy all game.

I also, think AF's claim has various problems. I think that the way he made his role sound useless, then lays this bombshell on us about a cult, is scummy. I also think his lack of results is scummy. Easiest way to fake results is to have them on dead guys and others that can't be verified.

I will

unvote

though because it does seem plausable for a cult to exist.

[elvis_knits]

For ease of reference: the kills and who probably did them according to the flavor and ones llama claims. It looks like "shot" is the FCC mafia. "Beaten" is llama. "Odd flavor" is probably an SK.

Freekin dead!:

The Internet - Francis Griffin – god worshiper (aka FCC mafia framer) – beaten to death day 1

The lynch

Zilla - Meg Griffin - Townie - Killed Night one with exploding pants

- Odd flavor kill

Knight of Cydonia - Joe Swanson - Daddy - Shot Night 1

- FCC kill

Xtoxm - Death – Time to kill (aka role blocker) - Beaten to death Night 1

- Vig kill - llama

Hybris - Diane Simmons - Townie- Trappled to death Day 2

The lynch

ForbindenLight - Brian Griffin – Alcoholic (Aka JOAT) - shot in the head night 2

- FCC kill

RestFermata-Stewie Griffin – Baby genius (aka Cop) - beaten and sucked dry by vampire kittens night 2

Vig kill + Odd flavor kill

BlakAdder - Chris Griffin – Follower - beaten to death day 3

The lynch

Zilla - Lois Griffin - Taxi service (aka Bus Driver) - via treadmill

- Odd flavor kill

Porochaz - Mort Goldman – Nerd (aka Doctor) - beaten

- Vig kill llama

KOC - The Evil Monkey – Pointer (aka tracker)

- shot - FCC kill

It looks as if FCC kill has gone through each night. So if they are able to recruit, then they can do it at the same time as putting in a kill.

[elvis_knits]

Did AF try to say BA was recruited night two when we only had two kills? Because that is obv BS since it seems pretty clear two kills were targetted on RF.

[elvis_knits]

In other words, I have no way of knowing whether or not my role had any effect at all. And just FYI, EK, only one of the three players I used the ability on are dead. ZONEACE & Charter are still alive and in the game.

I didn't say they were all dead, but that the people you targetted are dead or unable to verify you. Unless one of them can confirm that they used to be mafia and got unrecruited by you. Also, now that they're town they would be able to tell us who else was on their scum team. Which would sort of break the game, ya know?

Seriously. How would this work? AF unrecruits someone, they turn town and then promise not to tell who is on their scum team? Unless the recruits are not told who is on their scum team, like a blind traitor. Except that makes it sort of hard to help the scum team when you don't even know who is on it.

I'm having trouble understanding how this would work logistically.

[elvis_knits]

I think AF should claim his character. It may help, as it may make some sense with his claimed role, or make no sense.

[elvis_knits]

I heard "I've gotta go look up a family guy character that might make sense as an unrecruiter."

[elvis_knits]

Be back in a bit to answer most recent questions. Transiting from work to home.

Mmmmm.

Jinx

Buy me a coke.

[elvis_knits]

I heard "I've gotta go look up a family guy character that might make sense as an unrecruiter."

If that's the case, then whoever has that character can counter claim and we just caught scum.

Yes, which is why I think a character claim would help here.

But it's possible he will claim a character that nobody else has... through luck or because it's a little-known character. I don't think there are safe claims since TI didn't use one (BA didn't have a chance).

But I think we will be able to tell a lot from the claim... if the flavor makes any sense for that character to be an unrecruiter.

[elvis_knits]

FWIW, I am not Cleveland.

What is the reasoning that makes Cleveland an unrecruiter?

[elvis_knits]

I'm still trying to decide if there really is a cult in this game. I realize that saying I don't think there is a cult makes me look like I'm in the cult... but I sorta don't think there's a cult. I think that "follower" was just the name for a mafia goon in this game.

I think farside might have forgotten to write something after "follower" since virtually every other role seems to have an AKA explaining what the role is, like "alcoholic (AKA JOAT)." The other scum roles, "god worshiper (aka FCC mafia framer)" "Giggity with the girls (aka FCC role blocker)" They all explain what the role does. So either farside forgot to write "(AKA FCC mafia goon)" or she didn't put it because she didn't put an AKA for townie either. I guess because a townie is a townie.

So anyway, I think there are plausable explanations for Chris being Follower, and it doesn't have to mean there is a cult. And AF could have just had a bastardmod role.

Am I stooopid?

[elvis_knits]

If there is a cult in this game it should be over and they should have won by now if there aren't any of them dead.

Yeah. That too.

[elvis_knits]

This just in: Kmd was dead on about Tajo!

In other news, Llama is pretty surely town, and TM is probably not FCC. But could TM be SK? We'll have the story for you after the game!

Also, recent developments on earlier stories indicate that we may be in LYLO. If not, we are definitely nearing it.

I think one of charter and zone is scum. Despite what I have thought most of the game, I am leaning charter=scum.

[elvis_knits]

Kmd, also, I think you were on to something with EK before. You're a reporter or something, llama is vig, zone is scum/cult, so that leaves TM and EK. I still believe that TM is likely what he says he is, so that leaves EK. However, I think EK is the SK.

Interesting you haven't even said you think I'm scum until I reverse myself on you.

Also, if I were scum, what makes me more likely SK than mafia?

[elvis_knits]

Also, massclaim sounds good.

Should we agree on an order, or popcorn? I think KMD, charter, and me are the only ones not to claim yet.

I want charter to claim first.

[elvis_knits]

Really? I don't think I've given any opinion on you since day one. What makes you more likely to be SK is that you've pushed for scum to be lynched and I believe everyone else's claims. SK is free to hunt scum without worry. However, you've been very careful not to start arguements with anyone or do ANYTHING all game to draw even a little bit of attention to yourself. No one has ever defended you or anything. You've pretty much skated by all game fine with whoever gets lynched every day.

You've basically described successful town play. Why that should make me SK, I have no idea. Seriously? I've lynched too much scum? That's what makes me SK?

---

I am Bertram Griffin, long-lost son. I’m a deputy, but I didn’t know that until RF died. When RF died and was revealed as the cop, I was notified of being the deputy. I then got one investigation each night. I also was allowed to retrieve one of RF’s investigations, so I got her N1 target, TM, and the result was not guilty. This is why I was so sure TM was innocent after RF died. This is also why I was interested in zilla2 and her role of bus driver, because I believe RF may have been targeted on the night that I retrieved the investigation on TM. I have been trying to figure out the what went on with the choices that night, and if we can be sure about TM. Nobody else has really been picking up on it though.

Other choices:
N3: Prozac – not guilty
N4: Zoneace – not guilty

This post was meant as sort of a breadcrumb for my last result:

I think one of charter and zone is scum. Despite what I have thought most of the game, I am leaning charter=scum.

[elvis_knits]

This isn't even a real family guy character.

O rly?

[elvis_knits]

Kmd I really think is town too, no shot at FCC really, small SK but negligable at this point in the game.

I don't understand why you are discounting KMD. Looking back at his isolation, d1 he pushed hybris hard (town), xtoxm(town), Prozac(town) from a ridiculous game of truth or dare, and charter (who I think is scum). But I don't think he ever even vote charter. Which makes it very likely KMD could have been bussing charter.

I'd support the following lynches in this order:
Porochaz, Xtoxm, Hybris, TI.

I still don't like the way the TM wagon is going.

This is a perfect cover-your-ass post. He includes TI as a supported lynch, but only after THREE other townie. Looking at kmd's posts as a whole, he does seem against the TM wagon pretty decidedly, but not really FOR the TI wagon. He half-heartedly questions TI, and pushes many others as better lynches than TI. Given the rigorous nature of kmd's play, his questions to TI seem like softballs.

Also, with the truth or dare game, KMD came to the conclusion that Prozac was scum and tajo was town.

T/D was unfortunately before my time on SA, but I've seen how it works. Pretty sure Porochaz is scum.

No, that doesn't make you scum. I actually am pretty sure you are town.

Also this subtle defense of tajo:

Suspects:
CoheedCambria09
charter
Puta Puta
populartajo
Zilla

Maybes:
xtoxm
hybris

Town:
Forbiddanlight
RestFermata
Llama

Why Tajo? I haven't really seen a case on him.

And here's where kmd votes TI at almost the last possible minute:

Ok, the Xtoxm lynch isn't going to happen today. Nobody is jumping on, and Zilla just switched. Deadline is today, so I'll do what I said I would.

Vote The Internet

Then D2, kmd pushes these lynches: tubby(town), hybris(town), llama(town).

D3, KMD comments on BA, agreeing he's scummy, but again, less scummy than other players we now know are town (llama). kmd doesn't vote BA until after making llama claim. tajo also voted BA, actually hammered. BA may have been seen as a lost cause at that time by his scum team.

D4, kmd goes after tajo, but at a time when we were looking elsewhere (AF). Personally, when I want to buss a buddy without lynching him, I make a case while the town is ripping into someone else. That way the town doesn't agree with you and lynch your buddy, but you get on record as having "no ties." But kmd can't even really say that since he called tajo town from his T/D game on D1.

Overall, kmd has consistently pushed town people as his first choice lynches, and only gotten onto scum lynches when he had to. IT reeks of bussing. Also he has made questionable logical leaps in the game, the T/D game was fail, and so was kmd suggesting we could guess who the scum are from farside's flavor. Both those suggestions are very horrible and distracting.

We don't even know if his PR is real or fake since he has "decided" to break it every day and lose his night actions (which he says is a chance to question one player at night). Since he has broken the PR evey night, he hasn't been able to question anyone.

KMD COULD HAVE EASILY CONFIRMED HIS ROLE, AT ANY TIME, YET HE HAS NOT.

Why would a person do that? His role is easily confirmable, but he has chosen not to. It would be SO SO SO easy for him to be making all of this up. He fakes a PR, "breaks" the PR, and since he has broken the supposed PR, cannot confirm his role. Perfect scum claim.

[elvis_knits]

I don't know if I should vote you or kmd first.

[elvis_knits]

Basically I think kmd and charter are both scum, probably one fcc, one sk.

The obvious plan today is lynch one of kmd or charter, and I investigate the other to be sure.

Although, not sure where llama should shoot. If he kills me or my target, there's no point in me doing the investigation.

[elvis_knits]

Reposting the paragraph that should give us a town win:

Actually, what if we lynch Charter and Llama shoots ZONE. 3 of Me, EK, Llama, TM make endgame depending on the kill from either FCC or SK. If we are still playing tomorrow, I'd consider EK obvscum at that point. I'm going to bold this paragraph because I think it gives us a town win.

Multiple problems, including:

Why in hell does shooting zone help us? He's confirmed town.

[elvis_knits]

Suggesting we vig a confirmed innocent is scummy, kmd.

[elvis_knits]

KMD, you could have defended yourself while keeping your PR, then you could have confirmed your role at night by talking to someone. You were keeping your PR today, until I point out that you could confirm your role. Then you broke it. That is like saying "I LIED ABOUT HAVING A PR. I LIED ABOUT WHAT MY NIGHT ACTION WAS. I AM SCUM."

I think charter is SK because he says he's bulletproof. I think KMD is fcc by default.

[elvis_knits]

All I'm saying is, if you're not town, you cannot win if there's a lynch of someone not town today.

And if we lynch nobody, we have 3 kills (vig, sk, fcc) at night. I don't know what the math is, but it seems like that would PROBABLY be bad for town. Unless we want to rely on scum cross killing each other.

[elvis_knits]

Although I hate to let kmd live, I think we have to lynch charter today since he's bulletproof SK.

I can investigate kmd, or llama can vig kmd. I don't care which. kmd has proven his PR is a lie, his role is a lie. I has proven he is scum today by dropping his PR.

[elvis_knits]

WTF?

Both of you are scum. You each made a slip that is a nail in the coffin today.

KMD's was breaking his PR, which admits it was fake all along, which makes him lying scumbag.

Charter's mistake was saying there's "3 town and 3 scum left." Anyone claiming to know a specific number of scum, is ALWAYS SCUM. Nobody else knows the specific number of scum. Actually... for him to say three means he knows there's 2 FCC left (+ the SK). Which makes him FCC. And bulletproof?

He's must be Godfather FCC

.

[elvis_knits]

Charter, we now know you are FCC and you are not the last (since you said 3 scum left).

WHo is your buddy? KMD or someone else?

[elvis_knits]

OH MY GOD.
Come on people, just no lynch and send this on to night. Don't be afraid of claiming anti town, I have and I'm still (somehow) alive.

Since TM hasn't been posting, makes me think TM is scum too since you need three to pull it off.

[elvis_knits]

I'm trying to WIFOM decide if charter is the GF or not. IF you were GF and bulletproof, would you claim it since "bulletproof" is a believable town role, or would you pretend you were killable and draw the kill, hoping both you and your buddy survive?

[elvis_knits]

The TM investigation was almost assuredly screwed up by the busdriver role. Effectively, there is no investigation on TM.

[elvis_knits]

The TM investigation was almost assuredly screwed up by the busdriver role. Effectively, there is no investigation on TM.

Either way, if you are town, one of ZONE/TM is the last scum after Charter from my PoV.

If we count you as scum, which it seems we both are.

lol

I guess you're the SK? If so, we should kill you, because that cuts down on our nightkills tonight. Because if we lynch FCC, there will still be another FCC out there to make the kill.

Although I don't like that charter can't be NKed. I guess we just lynch him tomorrow. Unless, there was a WIFOM-type thing, and he can be NKed, and his buddy is the bulletproof GF. Which would screw the pooch.

[elvis_knits]

OMG kmd, stop making it sound pro-town to kill me. If my investigation on zone failed because he's GF, then my death proves nothing, gives no info. The only way I can be useful to the town is if I can make another investigation.

To the town: don't listen to the scum plans floated by charter and kmd. I have explained how they both outed themselves today. They are both scum. Same team, different team? I think KMD is the SK. Pretty sure charter is FCC.

Someone on the town has to start thinking of a good plan because I suck at logic and endgame plans, and plans in general. But I do know we shouldn't be doing a plan made by charterscum or kmdscum.

[elvis_knits]

what the fuck is going on?

kmd and charter are scum. Charter is fcc with some else being his buddy, though prob not kmd. Which makes kmd the SK.

[elvis_knits]

Wait, you think that I would claim scum if I was scum?

WIFOM INFINITY!!!!1111111111

Yeah I could believe you claiming SK if you knew there were enough scum to force a no-lynch (plus you've got somehting funky going on with your bulletproof WIFOM misidrection). Which you gave away that you knew. You said you knew there were 3 scum left. SK and 2FCC. Only way to know 2 FCC is if you ARE FCC. And I don't believe your crap about saying 3 scum because that's the worst case scenario. You didn't mention that caveat when you originally posted it. You anly mention that now, hours after I pointed out your mistake.

[elvis_knits]

I would agree to it if you could tell me how killing me would help.

[elvis_knits]

I agree with lynching KMD today, Charter tomorrow.

[elvis_knits]

Actually, if Llama is scum by now, we have the most retarded vig ever.

This is the type of statement I see scum make endgame when they are looking for ways to unconfirm people. Like "Oh maybe llama is scum and our vig was too retarded to vig him and of the many nights that he had the chance!!!111"

kmd and charter are so clearly scum.

I'm not clear on the plan yet, but if vigging me is the way to win, I will agree. I think llama was saying that letting me have another investigation would still leave us with questions, but I don't see how killing me gives less questions.

[elvis_knits]

Also, killing you confirms your claim as either true or false.

As would lynching anyone else. Killing ANYONE tells you if their claim is true or flase.

[elvis_knits]

KMD, what are you talking about, saying "I stalled"?

[elvis_knits]

Also, killing you confirms your claim as either true or false.

As would lynching anyone else. Killing ANYONE tells you if their claim is true or flase.

Yours brings more info because you claimed results with it.

Except for the GF problem. If we are able to lynch/kill a GF, then we can be sure my results aren't tainted.

KMD, what are you talking about, saying "I stalled"?

I voted you as soon as I saw he was pushing the no lynch for an anti-town faction victory. You just yelled "SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM"

If there's 3 scum, then they can push a no-lynch if they choose. But 3 town cannot lynch, and they can't stop a no-lynch. So WTF could I have done that would make any difference?

Why was voting me pro-town at that point?

Also, why choose me? Why didn't you vote him? Why was I scummier than charter who claimed scum?

[elvis_knits]

I think we should agree to follow Llama. He's 99% confirmed to me, and he's a good player.

Please, kiss his ass more.

[elvis_knits]

At least one of EK or you is scum. I think it's you banking on us not calling you on your 'lynch one of me or EK' plan.

Notice how his plan has become: lynch one of elvis or charter.

[elvis_knits]

It has to be EK or Charter I think...

[elvis_knits]

Oh, I assumed by "it has to be EK or charter" you meant the lynch for today, which should be the SK. This is what I was thinking was shifting, your choice for lynch today.

[elvis_knits]

vote charter

Llama, do what you have to do. I will investigate and hope I live to tell.

[elvis_knits]

vote: no lynch

[elvis_knits]

Well, I have to retire now, because I am never going do better than this.

:happy dance:

The last few days were very fun for me... all the chat-type posting with charter and kmd. I think all the WIFOM posting with charter helped me confuse the issue enough to get llama to kill kmd, which was key. And I had just about convinced myself that kmd was scum as well as charter which I decided was GF because of the bulletproof thing.

I had also forgotten that I was NK immune until last night. Although the fact that llama didn't target me turned out to be really important.

[elvis_knits]

well damn... I had EK right going into night (even about being NK immune), but had kmd as the last scum and not ZA.

By the way, I really really really hated being a vig... like really hated so much I actually debated just not sending in any kills after a little.

Did you change to kmd because charter flipped GF?

[elvis_knits]

LOL @ Charter tunneling on a "slip" he "caught" his scumbuddy on!!!

Wolf still was legitimately scummy damn it!

I agree!

[elvis_knits]

Oh sure, nk immune as well. well, fun. I had no chance of winning.

If you had ever tried to kill me another night, you would have known I was NK immune and then gone for the lynch the last day. I really expected to have to give "results" and try to avoid a lynch the last day. I was like "LOL WTF?" when I got on and TM voted no lynch. Then when you got on and voted no lynch I was like "LOL WTF?" times two.

[elvis_knits]

Also, EK being NK immune really screwed us.

I know there's been a lot of debate about giving this power to SK's. I of course think it's a wonderful idea

But seriously, if you had ever tried to kill me before you would have known about my power, and just gotten me lynched the last day instead. I was just lucky you had never tried to kill me.

[elvis_knits]

You know what was really interesting is that almost every role was a power role and most of them had no effect on the game. No investigation roles gave any results. No protection roles saved anyone. All the kills went throught (by my count).

[elvis_knits]

I think we did an excellent job of not doubling up on the scum kills (although I think I doubled up on kills a few times with llama).

[elvis_knits]

I really thought prozac was scum too.

[elvis_knits]

Good game to you too. I actually didn't think you were scum most of the game. I also thought zone was town. I only caught tajo at the end there when I was rereading the thread desperately trying to find FCC to kill.

And thanks to farside! Very fun game... as always!!

[elvis_knits]

Hey, what would have happened if llama tried to shoot me, and kmd lived. Would we have still no-lynched?

[elvis_knits]

You're prob right. kmd hated me all game.

[elvis_knits]

Oh, EK, why did you kill me twice? What set you off on me?

Oh yeah, well the first time it was because you were suspicious of me. Then when you replaced back in, I was like "oh great." But I wasn't going ot kill you again necessarily. Except you were hinting at a power role that knew something about RF's night action. Since I was planning to claim deputy, I was afraid you really were a deputy, or knew somehting that would screw up my claim.