Mini 679 - BSG: The Basestar (Game Over!)

[forbiddanlight]

This backing away whilst throwing in a little swipe doesn't look too good. If you really find myself and Elmo scummy, I don't really see why you're leaving it for later; and it's not like you appear satisfied by either of our responses. I also don't like your characterisation of my post as a "save my ass post". I did post some defences because I feel the attacks on Timeater are largely overblown, and because I'm trying to discern who's genuinely suspicious of him and who's making hay, and my post contains a whole load of analysis and opinions on other players. I don't see anything wrong with that.

There isn't. It just saves your ass . And I'm worried about deadline more than anything. I'm kinda constrained in what I can push given that, and you know this.

Yes, I definitely don't think it was a strawman. I think he asks the serious question of what smacks of scumminess about his attacks without explanation. I saw the second line as slightly more flippant but still don't see anything particularly wrong with it.

Then you are blind and I really can't help you. If you are scum (which I believe you are), good job living today.

This is incorrect. It's not uncommon for protown players to hold back their reasoning. The two main reasons for that are (1) Accusations without stated reasons often generate better reactions, and some people find it fun to do, and (2) It often helps to hold back on what exactly you find scummy about a player so that you can observe them a while longer to see if their behaviour continues or whether it was just an anomaly. Stating reasons too early can sometimes alert scum to what behaviour they need to change.

But even that change in behavior can show a lot about who's scum or not. It's all WIFOM. Elmo's reasons didn't fall under any of these anyway, except MAYBE reaction baiting, and the reactions I saw to it personally didn't strike me as scummy.

Why wait until tomorrow? If you truly feel like one of Elmo and me are your top two suspicions, you'd be pushing for our lynch at this instant. And are you that confident that you'll even be around tomorrow?

Because I'm busy as hell for most of the rest of this day, and trying to switch lynches at deadline when no one is listening to you doesn't work.

Touching on my meta experience with forbiddanlight: I spoke with her directly after WOMAFIA where she was scum and I was town, and I remember her mentioning that she generally likes drawing scum roles better than town roles because she feels more assertive and self-assured with her suspicions. forbiddanlight-town, on the other hand, is slightly more wishy washy and unsure of herself. My general feeling about her in this particular BSG game is that her play here better matches her scum meta as opposed to her town meta, for whatever that's worth. I could draw from other examples of her town play if necessary, but I think the in-thread evidence in this particular game is telling enough on its own.

Cite those PMs. I most assuredly did NOT say that. What I said is I'm a better more townie player as scum than I am as town. Please, tell me how you extrapolated these ridiculous concepts?

In fact, post 306 very strongly reminds me of a similar post forbiddanlight made here in WOMAFIA that addressed a defense ThAdmiral-town made against a case that I made against him in which she responded to his defense before I ever even got a chance to. I'm pretty sure Elmo's post 304 was directed at Tarhalindur, so I'm not exactly sure why forbiddanlight felt the need to step in and respond to it before he got a chance to. I'm not exactly sure what this suggests about forbiddanlight's possible relationship with Tarhalindur in this game though.

Actually, null tell for me. I always respond to questions not directed at me when I feel the need to. Second, I actually thought that WAS directed to me, IIRC, so it still is a crap tell.

I could bust out a PBPA on you, but that will have to wait til tonight. I have to leave very shortly. I'll pull out everything you've done then. Who knows, maybe it will change my opinion. I was mostly posting in the moment since you seriously were pinging my scumdar.

I need to step away from this game before I get pissed off more than I already am. I'll try to provide this as soon as possible, but I'm going to try to avoid looking at this tonight since I'm getting REALLY pissed at the BS attacks directed at me.

Yes forbiddanlight mentioned voting for me, but it was after it was popular, and seemed safe, might i add.

Yeah, since my first post. Bullshit.

Its taking advantage of the situation and everyone knows it. This is the reason I don't say "I'm voting this way, but i'm cool with the following people: Blahblahblahalh and blah" because quite frankly I'm voting for someone and EVERYONE else is okay, if they are scum. When you give someone a name that you are "okay" with then you are giving scum a safe name. thanks for bringing my name up.

I don't like AtE as a tell, but seriously? This is all that, and you aren't even TRYING to defend yourself. People have GOOD points against you. Defend them.

[Flask of Pestilence]

There isn't. It just saves your ass . And I'm worried about deadline more than anything. I'm kinda constrained in what I can push given that, and you know this.

We've got a week left, that's enough time to lynch anyone if the case is good. What you actually meant to say here is that you've backed away from this position once it's started to be seen as suspicious, but you're leaving the option open to come back later if it suits.

Then you are blind and I really can't help you. If you are scum (which I believe you are), good job living today.

I guess we'll have to disagree on the first part. Second part doesn't really convince me that you actually believe I'm scum.

This is incorrect. It's not uncommon for protown players to hold back their reasoning. The two main reasons for that are (1) Accusations without stated reasons often generate better reactions, and some people find it fun to do, and (2) It often helps to hold back on what exactly you find scummy about a player so that you can observe them a while longer to see if their behaviour continues or whether it was just an anomaly. Stating reasons too early can sometimes alert scum to what behaviour they need to change.

But even that change in behavior can show a lot about who's scum or not. It's all WIFOM. Elmo's reasons didn't fall under any of these anyway, except MAYBE reaction baiting, and the reactions I saw to it personally didn't strike me as scummy.

This is becoming a theoretical debate, and not one that's terribly important. Whether or not you like it, that kind of tactic is frequently used by protown players. Elmo's reasons could have been any of baiting, having fun, boredom or any mixture of those.

(Patrick)

[Flask of Pestilence]

Because I'm busy as hell for most of the rest of this day, and trying to switch lynches at deadline when no one is listening to you doesn't work.

According to the thread's title, our deadline falls on the 4th of November. Even if today is a complete loss for you like you claim that still leaves you with Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday to try and convince people that one of us is the correct lynch. I don't buy your explanation for why you're not pushing our lynches, especially coupled with the fact that according to the mod's vote count, there is still not one completely developed wagon on anyone at this time.

What do you think of MacavityLock, btw?

Cite those PMs. I most assuredly did NOT say that. What I said is I'm a better more townie player as scum than I am as town. Please, tell me how you extrapolated these ridiculous concepts?

I actually deleted those PMs so perhaps you did say what you said above. However, I know that I had performed my own research after reading your PM's to me, and what I typed out here is pretty much my own personal interpretation of how your play looks to me both as town and as scum, which still fits with exactly what you're claiming your own meta looks like (looking more town as scum and looking more scummy as town). So no, I don't think what I've written out here is as ridiculous as you're claiming it is.

Actually, null tell for me. I always respond to questions not directed at me when I feel the need to. Second, I actually thought that WAS directed to me, IIRC, so it still is a crap tell.

How could you possibly think that was directed to you when the very top of the post specifically indicates a switch in a vote to Tarhalindur?

-Incog.

[destructor]

.::] Vote Count [::.

iamausername (2)

- andersonw, Awesome Pants
*

KingEnigma (3)

- MacavityLock, iamausername, forbiddanlight

Flask of Pestilence (1)

- Tarhalindur

Farkshinsoup (2)

- Rishi, KingEnigma

Tarhalindur (2)

- Flask of Pestilence, Elmo

Not voting (2) - Grimmy, Farkshinsoup

Seven

votes to lynch.

The

deadline

is about six days away.

[Elmo]

I am going to deeply enjoy watching TarScum fail at justifying a Flask lynch.

I may have been wrong about Tim/Flask.

FoP is looking bettter than Timeater.

In other news, Flask of Pestilence has compensated enough for Timeater to make me want to Unvote.

.::] Vote Count [::.

Flask of Pestilence (1)

- Tarhalindur

[MacavityLock]

At the moment, I don't have time to make a full case, and I will admit to skimming the last couple pages. Again, I apologize, as school has been kicking my ass. Still, I wanted to respond to Flask-cog's post. I'll have a more complete analysis over the weekend. I know we're getting to deadline. Sorry about that.

I'm going to jump right to the heart of it:

He begins by asking a completely irrelevant question to Timeater about his knowledge of the BSG theme in Post 103:

Timeater, how much BSG have you actually watched? Yes, this is a serious game-related question.

BTW, this is my first theme game. Is it reasonable to ask how much knowledge a player has of the theme?

Timeater responds and Macavity mentions that there was something in Timeater’s post 85 that made him think he didn’t watch a particular season. And your point is? How exactly is that a serious game-related question? What did you hope to draw from Timeater’s answers that could have moved the game forward in any possible way?

I already wrote that I'm not going to be answering this yet. Are

you

just skimming?

Post 124 was really, really bad:

Wow, this game got quiet fast. Maybe now would be a good time to talk about what to do about lurkers. I say we airlock 'em!

I think on the Fark vs Tim debate there's a nice thin haze of scumminess from both of them. However, the hypocracy as pointed out by username, as well as a pretty heavy effort to tie Tim to Elmo make me come down on the Fark-is-scummier side.

I'm still on the Enigma wagon. I don't see how he's being helpful and I think he specifically posts things in a confusing manner. At the very least, he needs to start scumhunting.

I can’t help but get the feeling here that Macavity was trying to take some kind of position on one side of the fence of an argument that most likely was between two townies (my predecessor and Farkshinsoup). Not only that, he makes reference to his vote remaining on the KingEnigma wagon mentioning that KE hasn’t done any scum hunting when Macavity himself hasn’t done any scum hunting himself either. Pot calling the kettle black?

I felt like KE was being deliberately obtuse and not bringing analysis

or

information to the game. As for the Fark v Tim stuff, honestly I was just trying to sort out my thoughts on the situation.

He calls out my predecessor (Timeater) in post 129 for probably the single, weakest point raised against him:

Thanks for the vote count, destructor. Without it, I wouldn't have noticed this:

lol, an OMGUS vote, surprise surprise (didnt see that one coming!)

This was in response to Fark placing a vote on Tim. However, Tim didn't have a vote on Fark at the time. In fact, Tim didn't have a vote on anybody at the time. So why are you calling out Fark for an OMGUS vote when it couldn't have been OMGUS? You may have been attacking him, as is your right as a scumhunter. But still, the way I see it, Fark's vote was not OMGUS, and you intimating it was is scummy.

FoS: Tim

And, not only that, ladies and gentlemen, he doesn’t even bother to vote him. He merely FoS’s!

When I noticed that vote, I did a re-read, and as far as I could tell, Tim made one attacking post on Fark, post 101. Fark responded with pretty reasonable attack of Tim in response, and voted Tim. And then Tim called it OMGUS. I already stated my feelings on whipping out the OMGUS card. In some situations, it's crap. I think this was one of those situations.

• Why does an OMGUS vote
  always
  necessarily have to come after a vote that has been placed by a person on one other person?
  
  No, but again OMGUS votes can be scummy or not, as can calling someone's vote OMGUS
  
  
• Why can’t an OMGUS vote come after a person points out a few things said person doesn’t like about another person?
  
  Sure it can, but again the question is whether it's scummy to OMGUS, or townie. In Fark's case, it felt pretty reasonable at the very least.
  
  
• And more importantly, in your own words, what would be the scum motivation for a hypothetical scum to call something “OMGUS” the way Timeater did, especially after he just finished laying out a fairly detailed case against the person he thought was most scummy at the time?
  
  Hypothetical scum would potentially call someone's vote OMGUS if he thought he might convince other people to vote for OMGUSer, for example if they might be of the type that thinks that OMGUS=scummy.
  
  If Timeater went so far as to already outline a fairly lengthy case (and it was fairly lengthy considering it was page 5 and all), do you really think his “intimation of an OMGUS reaction coming from Fark” to his case really is scummy too? Wouldn’t the case nicely outline his suspicions well enough?
  
  You say fairly lengthy, but the more I re-read that post, the more I think it's a really weak case
  
  
• What exactly did you think of his case against Farkshinsoup anyway?
  
  See above, also see below.

Post 134 was pretty silly. Awesome Pants questions Macavity about what good points in particular he thought Fark raised with respect to Timeater. He points out one of them:

Can you post what points that [Fark] made about Timeater that you like?

Yes. The following is a good point:

(directed at me)I'd like to hear your answers. You seem evasive.

I like how he doesn't bother answering the said questionaire himself but wants to hear my answers and goes on to state I'm being evasive. That just irks my scumdar. Its like one of those oh-so-subtle pot-shots scum take at townies for anything, ANYTHING, that could be construed as scummy. Those little, sometimes innocent seeming "pot-shots" are a great scumtell imo (and I've had alot of success with recognizing them).

This is ridiculous. Tarhalindur explicitly directed his questions to YOU in post 82. (and to KE in post 81). Why would I answer the questions? Please feel free to point out where I have evaded questions DIRECTED TO ME in this game. This is the scummiest thing I've seen in this game so far.

…but doesn’t in any way elaborate on what it was in particular he thought was the good point about it. He goes forward to explain why someone saying someone else "OMGUS’ed" them is scummy but his explanation doesn’t seem convincing in the least.

Sorry, I probably should have said "I agree 100% with what Fark said here. Tim's suggestion that Fark should have answered questions posed to Tim is pretty horrendous."

Lastly, I just want to point out that Flask-cog attacked me

twice

for misusing plurals. That's a scumtell?

More analysis of recent events coming this weekend. I'm going to

unvote: KE

for the moment. I think there are probably other more likely scums out there.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Then Elmo puts together a great post on Tar. But, I don't know about his case. It almost feels like Elmo baited Tar and then went after him for chasing the bait.

Why do you feel this weakens the case if true?

(Patrick)

[Rishi]

Elmo can continue to do his happy dance, but I like the FoP wagon better than the KE wagon. I've never really been that suspicious of KE and I think people are jumping on him because he's a fairly easy target - being busy in real life has made it look like he's lurking. As for FoP, what better way to avert suspicion and distance yourself from the predecessor than working hard in the game? (And it's much easier for two people to look active than one.) Anyway, I am just saying that we shouldn't give FoP a free pass at this point. I don't think FoP is a good lynch for today, by any means.

In fact, I probably wouldn't be willing to help lynch anyone right now except for Fark and MacavityLock (whose case never picked up the steam it deserved). Maybe one of the lurkers, if it came down to it (like Awesome Pants or andersonw), but only right at deadline. As for other wagons, no one has made a convincing enough case yet, for me.

[Rishi]

Then Elmo puts together a great post on Tar. But, I don't know about his case. It almost feels like Elmo baited Tar and then went after him for chasing the bait.

Why do you feel this weakens the case if true?

(Patrick)

Sorry for the double post, but didn't see this before. Because Elmo was dancing around and being all like, "Look at me! I'm scummy! I'm saying stuff that makes no sense and throwing out an FoS without justification! Wooo! Here I am!" Now, most of us know Elmo and know that he wouldn't do this without a reason and that he wouldn't pull such an obvious scummy move, so most of us ignored him.

Then, when Tar jumped on the case, Elmo was all like, "Ha! I was being scummy on purpose and you fell for it! I caught you, scum."

Now, I'll totally admit this might be a bit of an exaggeration, but I just feel that Elmo was setting up a trap. I'm not saying that Elmo is scum because of it - I'm just questioning the efficacy of the plan.

Actually, we can kind of resolve this since Elmo is here. Hi, Elmo, what were you trying to do?

[Grimmy]

Ive been a bit distracted by work but I should be able to get back to this particular game this afternoon. Apologies to all who have kept things going without me.

Grimmy
will be back later

[Flask of Pestilence]

I already wrote that I'm not going to be answering this yet. Are

you

just skimming?

I noticed you mentioned that you would not be answering that but in post 110 you seemed to drop the issue as you said "nevermind" so I didn't think it had much relevance anymore with respect to your feelings about Timeater and figured you could probably share what it was you were trying to get at.

I felt like KE was being deliberately obtuse and not bringing analysis

or

information to the game. As for the Fark v Tim stuff, honestly I was just trying to sort out my thoughts on the situation.

Yes, but I highly doubt that your placing of a vote on KingEnigma is going to suddenly make the guy come alive. If you felt like he was being "deliberately obtuse", then that means that you thought his behavior wasn't necessarily scummy, just unhelpful. My point was that when I'm town, and I feel a player might just being non-contributive as opposed to scummy, I usually ask said player probing questions and try to get him/her to take a stand in the game and share opinions. I saw you doing no such thing in this case. You complained about it and left your vote on him but never took steps to try and bring him up and out of it.

When I noticed that vote, I did a re-read, and as far as I could tell, Tim made one attacking post on Fark, post 101. Fark responded with pretty reasonable attack of Tim in response, and voted Tim. And then Tim called it OMGUS. I already stated my feelings on whipping out the OMGUS card. In some situations, it's crap. I think this was one of those situations.

Perhaps, but the main issue I have a problem with in that particular post is your FoS of him instead of placing an actual vote down on him. I've seen a number of examples from past games where two people go back and forth in arguing while a scum sits back watching the two go back and forth and then said scum goes ahead and FoS's one of them for one of the more minor points using that FoS as his catalyst for his eventual vote as if the two arguers are the only two people in the entire game who could be scum. I'd need to look into your past games to see if you're just typically cautious with your votes but yeah, that particular instance gave me a really bad vibe.

Fair enough, to the list of questions.

Lastly, I just want to point out that Flask-cog attacked me

twice

for misusing plurals. That's a scumtell?

Not necessarily, but you missed those questions that I asked. They weren't rhetorical questions, and I really did want answers for them. Or are you saying that the only reaction that you found interesting at game's start was KingEnigma's and that you didn't find more than one reaction interesting?

In fact, I probably wouldn't be willing to help lynch anyone right now except for Fark and MacavityLock (whose case never picked up the steam it deserved).

I might have missed this in my read but was there another case put forward by someone else against MacLock?

[Flask of Pestilence]

-Incog. lol.

[MacavityLock]

I already wrote that I'm not going to be answering this yet. Are

you

just skimming?

I noticed you mentioned that you would not be answering that but in post 110 you seemed to drop the issue as you said "nevermind" so I didn't think it had much relevance anymore with respect to your feelings about Timeater and figured you could probably share what it was you were trying to get at.

I believe it has no relevance at this stage of the game, but it might later, so I still don't want to bring it up yet.

When I noticed that vote, I did a re-read, and as far as I could tell, Tim made one attacking post on Fark, post 101. Fark responded with pretty reasonable attack of Tim in response, and voted Tim. And then Tim called it OMGUS. I already stated my feelings on whipping out the OMGUS card. In some situations, it's crap. I think this was one of those situations.

Perhaps, but the main issue I have a problem with in that particular post is your FoS of him instead of placing an actual vote down on him. I've seen a number of examples from past games where two people go back and forth in arguing while a scum sits back watching the two go back and forth and then said scum goes ahead and FoS's one of them for one of the more minor points using that FoS as his catalyst for his eventual vote as if the two arguers are the only two people in the entire game who could be scum. I'd need to look into your past games to see if you're just typically cautious with your votes but yeah, that particular instance gave me a really bad vibe.

My vote has been on KE for basically the whole game. I found him scummy at the time, scummier than Tim.

Lastly, I just want to point out that Flask-cog attacked me

twice

for misusing plurals. That's a scumtell?

Not necessarily, but you missed those questions that I asked. They weren't rhetorical questions, and I really did want answers for them. Or are you saying that the only reaction that you found interesting at game's start was KingEnigma's and that you didn't find more than one reaction interesting?

Fine. The thing about interesting reaction

s

on page 2 shouldn't have been plural. I was pretty much only focused on KE's here. Most other people seemed pretty even-keel at that point. So, yes, this was a directed squarely at KE. I also just noticed that you said before that I only pointed out the thing about KE that "happened to be receiving the brunt of attention at the time," but that's not true. In that "reactions" post, I was the

first

person to mention it.

As for Fark's good point

s

on Tim:

Timeater: vote placed against player who is making specious arguments against you =/= OMGUS. I leave it up to everyone else to determine the difference.

Another one that I agree with, as I hope I've demonstrated with all the OMGUS philosophy debates.

Really, is it fair of you to sit back and judge me of being evasive about not answering a questionaire style post when it easily could be applied to any player in this game?

Yes. The question was directed to you, and you obfuscated. I wanted to hear your answers and found you evasive. I called you out on it. What does "fair" even have to do with this?

The fact that Tim didn't even attempt to answer these questions at all before directing the word-for-word same questions to somebody else seemed pretty scummy to me.

[andersonw]

First of all, sorry for not posting, I had a cold recently and could barely read, let alone make a decent post.
Just finished reading the posts I missed, still trying to sort out my thoughts on FoP, Elmo, Tar, etc.

Rishi:
I don't really like this part of your post 317:

That whole Elmo/forbiddanlight argument was a whole lot of nothing. If Elmo was scum, he'd be making newbie-level scum mistakes. And I don't think he'd do that.

You're assuming that Elmo isn't scum since he wouldn't be acting bored if he was. To me, it's just WIFOM.

@IAAUS: What is your definition of playing "by the book", regarding post 318?
Same question for FoP, I'm curious to know what both of you think by standard scum play.

More coming later

[Flask of Pestilence]

@IAAUS: What is your definition of playing "by the book", regarding post 318?
Same question for FoP, I'm curious to know what both of you think by standard scum play.

Scum like to go after easily attackable behaviour. Elmo's unhelpness there was easily attackable behaviour that wasn't scummy. Obviously you can have townies going after that kind of behaviour as well, but in this case I feel both forbiddanlight and Tarhalindur are experienced enough to know better. I'm especially curious as to how Tarhalindur explains himself, actually, since I'm certain he's come across townies behaving in strange and unhelpful ways (for example: Glorktown in the already mentioned Mini 594 -- and Elmo's unhelpfulness here was nothing by comparison).

[Flask of Pestilence]

And I forgot to sign it again. That was Patrick.

[Elmo]

The key thing here is that Tar/FL's behaviour is deeply unnatural. I was baiting, but I was careful to select something that's fairly obviously null. That's why I reacted the way I did; you can see it pretty easily in retrospect, as Rishi did. (Both of the Flask pair probably know me well enough to figure it out instantly.)

Then, when Tar jumped on the case, Elmo was all like, "Ha! I was being scummy on purpose and you fell for it! I caught you, scum."

No, my point was the opposite. It wasn't scummy, but he jumped on it anyway, and someone genuine wouldn't have. I believe only you and Tar know me; the fact that Tar

does

know me, indeed saw my play as scum up close in Satin Doll, yet chose to push ElmoScum regardless is a further point against him. He even brought up a meta reference about me from there, right?

There is a lack of discussion of "FL pushing ProbTown Timeater's lynch for crappy reasons". If (for reasons passing understanding) you're unconvinced by her behaviour towards me, look there. Her behaviour of "replace in, make a few comments about the game, hop onto a popular wagon" is fairly canonical scum. I've said why I think her reasons are bad. Also, FL is obviously backing off Flask because she was only on there for the soft, popular target that was Timeater. Mumbling something about being busy is a crap excuse to avoid failing hard at justifying her stance in the manner that Tar will shortly exemplify. No, really, kill please.

I really do think that lynching anyone other than Tar, FL or maybe MacavityLock (I need to read him in depth) is a weak lynch, unless someone wants to make a better case or I've overlooked something. I could settle for it to avoid a no lynch, but I demand that we kill actual suspicious people today, please.

[Elmo]

Ugh, why do I keep forgetting to post this? I think Tar's bussing tendencies are best dealt with simply by not ruling anything out... if I were in his shoes, I'd seriously consider going strongly the other way and rampantly defending a buddy early, hoping the meta from Satin Doll (perhaps a fairly widely read game, I don't know) would swing it the other way.

Maybe Tar and FL are both scum, but different factions, I don't know. I don't think I want to step into the minefield of drawing anything solid from "Tar is strongly attacking/defending ___, they must/must not be scum together". I would be very skittish about following that reasoning.

[forbiddanlight]

According to the thread's title, our deadline falls on the 4th of November. Even if today is a complete loss for you like you claim that still leaves you with Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday to try and convince people that one of us is the correct lynch. I don't buy your explanation for why you're not pushing our lynches, especially coupled with the fact that according to the mod's vote count, there is still not one completely developed wagon on anyone at this time.

I meant the ingame day.

How could you possibly think that was directed to you when the very top of the post specifically indicates a switch in a vote to Tarhalindur?

My knack for not paying attention.

I guess we'll have to disagree on the first part. Second part doesn't really convince me that you actually believe I'm scum.

Pretty sure you are, but I like the info you are putting out to be honest. Whether scum or town, what you produced will give you a day since I really can't be around enough to push your case strongly. And hopefully you'll keep this up so we have things to analyze once you flip.

I actually deleted those PMs so perhaps you did say what you said above. However, I know that I had performed my own research after reading your PM's to me, and what I typed out here is pretty much my own personal interpretation of how your play looks to me both as town and as scum, which still fits with exactly what you're claiming your own meta looks like (looking more town as scum and looking more scummy as town). So no, I don't think what I've written out here is as ridiculous as you're claiming it is.

But, you still basically twisted that supposed meta to say something it doesn't.

This is becoming a theoretical debate, and not one that's terribly important. Whether or not you like it, that kind of tactic is frequently used by protown players. Elmo's reasons could have been any of baiting, having fun, boredom or any mixture of those.

Or she could be scum. Love how you left that out.

What do you think of MacavityLock, btw?

Fence on him. I'm not really sure what to think and I should probably reread him. To be fair, I did kinda tunnel as I continued reading everything before I replaced in. Your predecessor was really scummy.

Maybe Tar and FL are both scum, but different factions, I don't know. I don't think I want to step into the minefield of drawing anything solid from "Tar is strongly attacking/defending ___, they must/must not be scum together". I would be very skittish about following that reasoning.

As you should. Trust connection on an incredibly loose basis at best.

The key thing here is that Tar/FL's behaviour is deeply unnatural. I was baiting, but I was careful to select something that's fairly obviously null. That's why I reacted the way I did; you can see it pretty easily in retrospect, as Rishi did. (Both of the Flask pair probably know me well enough to figure it out instantly.)

Unnatural my ass. Have you EVER read a game I'm in?

There is a lack of discussion of "FL pushing ProbTown Timeater's lynch for crappy reasons". I

Tim is prob town now? Since when?

. Also, FL is obviously backing off Flask because she was only on there for the soft, popular target that was Timeater. Mumbling something about being busy is a crap excuse to avoid failing hard at justifying her stance in the manner that Tar will shortly exemplify. No, really, kill please.

Because I am a slave to mafiascum

I really do think that lynching anyone other than Tar, FL or maybe MacavityLock (I need to read him in depth) is a weak lynch, unless someone wants to make a better case or I've overlooked something. I could settle for it to avoid a no lynch, but I demand that we kill actual suspicious people today, please.

k

Unvote, Vote Elmo

(wait, I was already doing that :S)

[Elmo]

Unvote, Vote Elmo (wait, I was already doing that :S)

No, you were voting KingEnigma because he's an easier lynch than me or Flask. =)

[forbiddanlight]

No, you were voting KingEnigma because he's an easier lynch than me or Flask. =)

I was? kk. But you see, you exhorted me to vote someone who was more genuinely scummy, and your force of will was too great to ignore.

[Flask of Pestilence]

Ugh, why do I keep forgetting to post this? I think Tar's bussing tendencies are best dealt with simply by not ruling anything out... if I were in his shoes, I'd seriously consider going strongly the other way and rampantly defending a buddy early, hoping the meta from Satin Doll (perhaps a fairly widely read game, I don't know) would swing it the other way.

This is actually something that I had been thinking about also, especially considering the fact that he specifically pointed to this tendency of his during post-game.

Speaking of Tar, where's he been lately?

- Incog.

[Tarhalindur]

Sorry for the absence, I'm V/LA until Friday (as noted yesterday in the games I am modding) and won't have time to make any in-depth posts (or read Macavity, who I hadn't finished reading earlier and whose name I saw mentioned while skimming the thread) until Friday.

Unvote: Flask of Pestilence

, whose behavior since replacing in more than offsets their predecessor's scumminess.

[Elmo]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Flask of Pestilence]

Quick check in from me, my order of suspicions is still forbiddanlight, Tar, MacavityLock. FB and Tar are fairly close, and the difference is mainly that forbiddanlight's reactions have been scummy (distinct from scumminess I pointed out in my first post). MacavityLock is a more distant third for me. Not sure how Incognito's order looks right now, but we'll probably be able to chat about it later. I've looked at KingEnigma and don't really see a strong case against him; certainly nothing that I think compares to the evidence against Tar/FB.

(Patrick)