Mini 698 - Georgetown Mafia - Game over

[Atlas]

/confirmatory!!

[Atlas]

Vote: Primate

for bringing math into mafia.

[Atlas]

Days I read commonly kick off from someone doing something scummy, or a player jumping on the smallest of actions. The former is misguided because it usually occurs when a newbie that doesn't know better stumbles, or the player just does this on purpose to start the day or set an obvious scum trap. As for the latter, I deeply despise it because the eager paranoid does not find those actions scummy at all, and will most likely generate a discussion based on false/exaggerated premises and opinions. The paranoid also unfairly earns suspicious for being "jumpy" and is labeled as scum trying to lynch a townie based on nothing, which is almost never the case (...).

How does everyone else feel about this?

[Atlas]

You're right that we shouldn't let the player slide because s/he is a newbie, but a newbie's actions are considerably more tricky to analyze when it comes down to if they know what they're doing. Mislynches on Day 1 frequently fit this situation.

Primate, does the dancing lemon signify anything?

[Atlas]

Jumping on the smallest of actions is also known as jumping at shadows and warrants a vote on the person doing it.

I was referring to jumping on meaningless actions in the first couple of pages. If this is what you also meant, then I hugely disagree. Calling everything suspicious in the RVS is more of a null-tell to me, because I don't see mafia gaining anything from it (unless the town is stupid enough to lynch based on such a weak case.) #42 is a clear example of such... I don't see EvilGorrilaz any more likely to be mafia with his vote. Clearly it's not pro-town to vote without explained reason, but I don't see him pushing any malicious agendas with it.

[Atlas]

I doubt Evil's vote was random.

#35 was centered around events that generated Day 1 discussion and with it RVS paranoia, so when you responded I thought you were talking about RVS paranoia as well. My mistake.

[Atlas]

Because I've seen a million no-explanation votes in a similar fashion that weren't meant for much else other than dicussion purposes. You may have randomly picked out Corvuus but it's unlikely that you voted at such an inapt time for the heck of it. Also, the way you responded to StrangerCoug with a flat "No" as if there were more behind the vote.

[Atlas]

Just wondering; are post restrictions possible in this Mini?

[Atlas]

¬¬

[Atlas]

Sorry for not being here for a while.
Are we past random voting?

On Page 2 I was sure we got past that stage... Now, not so much.

[Atlas]

Unvote: Primate, Vote: Zeppo

for this comment:

Cephir jumping on a bandwagon and

going for a quicklynch

is suspicious and I'd like to hear the reasoning behind his vote.

Primate summed it up nicely; it's silly to say that Cephir actually tried to quick-lynch a player on Page 3 based on...

nothing

. Your bandwagon accusation is accurate and I agree with it, but the red bit grasps at a very unlikely scenario.

My next two are Mitey and StrangerCoug, though they are a bit farther down. StangerCoug for reaching on EvilGorillaz as well. The vote on Cephir is warranted but I don't see what's so scummy, rather than anti-town, about his vote. I'm more suspicious of Mitey because it is usually the scum that blindly follow promising attacks, especially without voting. These two players are up in the air because Cephir's vote

does

justify some question.

I honestly wish we were [out of the RVS].

What made you think that we weren't?

[Atlas]

Different mafia groups? What the heck? I think you're looking way too deep into the picture. He's just saying that StrangerCoug is scum...

[Atlas]

Mod, are post restrictions possible in this Mini?

Assuming it is voluntary I see Primate's play style as both anti-town and scummy. Anti-town because he is limiting the amount of information he could add to the thread; Corvuus elaborated pretty well on this. It's scummy because he can easily make everyone believe that he actually has a PR and thus get by much easier than most of the town. I think it's much more likely that A) Primate is "cleverly" fooling the town into believing nonsense for an easy scum-game, rather than B) a situation in which the mod instilled a picture-only restriction in a game with

"standard roles"

(from the mod herself). My vote is pending depending on how the mod responds.

Mitey is looking scummier and scummier by the post; it's clear that he is just sitting on the fence regarding the situation with Primate. The only thing he has done is ask Primate/the mod several times whether Primate has a PR. What do

you

think, Mitey? And is it suspect at all?

[Atlas]

Do you think it's voluntary or involuntary, given StragerCoug's (?) and Corvuus' cases?

[Atlas]

Wow I gotta say that graphic organizer is pretty awesome.

I'm sorry, Corvuus, but I'm not convinced by your case on Primate here.

Cephrir, nice job agreeing with Corvuus and joining the Primate wagon without adding any real content yourself.

FoS: Cephrir

I'll explain my thoughts later. Just go with it, K?

Um, way to go.

unvote; vote Cephrir

That wasn't much better. Reasoning?

FoS: Sminty

Primate that's a pretty nice chart but do you think you could elaborate somewhat?

[Atlas]

Primate, are you allowed to post numbers? If so please do so in response.

[Atlas]

Zeppo, have you ever seen a straight answer to a yes or no question from Primate yet? Imo it's getting futile and redundant. And I don't think Primate would have information regarding StrangerCoug's alignment on Day 1 in a game with standard roles (except for a masonry, but that wouldn't explain why Primate has written Coug off as scum).

I'm not sure what his last three posts mean but apparently he can post numbers and pictures with words. If he is allowed to do all of this, but cannot communicate "directly" with the town, I would consider his PR too complex for this town. If it's all a play for reactions or something then it is just distracting everyone.

[Atlas]

Zeppo, have you seen a yes or no answer from Primate on anything yet? That wasn't a rhetorical question.

I guess the mod doesn't want to disclose the limits of this set-up.

You know what, screw it. I'm done talking about Primate for now.

I'm not necessarily encouraging you to stay on this subject (because I'm getting sick of it as well) but I have a strong feeling that this is exactly what Primate is going for. His responses are increasingly ambiguous and do not answer questions as explicitly as he has shown he is capable of.

I simply chose Corvuus because it was a random vote. There was no malicious intent intended. But I'm a little confused about Primate's Vendiagram. Does the fact I'm in a seperate bubble mean my allegiance is undecided?

I think we can stop the "reaction voting" now because it's only distracting the town and has been done several times already. Original reaction-gauging moves are less obvious and thus will likely yield more telling information.

My top suspect is still Zeppo; his role-fishing was so blatant, illogical and silly that I would consider it only a slight scum-tell if he weren't so new.

[Atlas]

Post coming later today.

[Atlas]

You're not wrong, but given what we know of this "PR", I think we should just start treating him like any other player. At this point, if he doesn't provide good/non-craplogic analysis (no matter what excuse), I will consider it scummy. And by analysis, I do mean something that anyone can understand. (The army-star patches, for example? I have no idea.)

That's what I'm going to start doing. At first I thought it would be impossible to treat Primate like every other player given his limitations, but of course that was before I knew he could (would) post much more than obscure pictures. Either way I firmly believe that the PR is voluntary unless Primate can explain how he is able to post numbers and ASCII pictures without communicating more directly.

Just coming from a game that I had a posting restriction in ... it is not easy and he has been doing pretty well with getting his point across with it.

Link to game, please? And I strongly disagree with the second line. As far as I can tell, Primate has gotten his point across on one specific point a grand total of

one

time. Other than that he either responds to posts, regardless of size, with some smiley or lumps players into groups with no reasoning. You say it's not easy, but I don't think it is very difficult at least select several quotes from a player and highlight what you find scummy about it.

What do you mean "accusations"? Hasn't it been established that Primate voted me without a reason?

Primate is accusing you of being scum; thus it is an accusation.

I did find it kind of odd SC didn't try to defend himself from Primate's accusations. But I don't know if that's a sign of a passive scum or a passive townie.

I definitely agree with both statements, though I lean more towards Stranger being scum. The only case of Cougar-town is one in which he simply brushed off Primate's accusation

because

he presented no evidence. At least, early in the game as town I sometimes disregard votes and such if the accuser doesn't give me something to defend against. The fact that Primate voiced his opinions through pictures (which may have taken away from the seriousness of his entire post) could have made Cougar less inclined to question it. If you look back, Cougar didn't really defend himself against Macavity's FoS in #75 either.

Cougar-scum, on the other hand, sees more possible scenarios. In one case that Corvuus currently believes (scum-buddies), Cougar simply ignored Primate's bussing. I find this very unlikely because 1) lol, and 2) Why motivation does Primate have to vote for Cougar in his first serious post of the game? Corvuus brings up very good points though. Despite thinking that both of them are scum (my two new top suspects, by the way) I think a Cougar-scum & Primate-town scenario is more likely: Primate is just screwing with everyone for fun/gambit purposes and Cougar ignores his accusations just because.

If you count the dancing smiley as a yes then yes. If you don't then no.

This makes no sense because in one post, Mitey asked if Primate had a PR and he replied with a dancing smiley. Corvuus then says "I don't think there is a PR" and Primate responds with the same dancing smiley. Also, what do you take of Corvuus' entire case?

[Atlas]

All I want to do is verify the type of game and PR, so we're not necessarily "discussing" his ongoing game like the rule disallows. If I'm not allowed to do that then Mitey shouldn't be allowed to mention it in the first place.

Of course, the mod can let us know if we are breaking any rules.

[Atlas]

Oh, sorry about that. Though technically Primate accused you twice; once as a convenience store robber and the other in his colorful diagram.

[Atlas]

No, I didn't say that. I just said it wasn't a tell.

I don't agree with this. He's being anti-town by withholding thoughts.

[Atlas]

I didn't have much to add. I don't think my stuff with MM is new. How is it withholding thoughts if I really didn't have any thoughts to withhold?

As you could probably tell from my post, I didn't have much time to say anything or go back and verify what Corvuus had said. I didn't see any objection from you until after I posted so I (stupidly) assumed that Corvuus' read was accurate. Apparently it might not be, so I'm going to look back in the thread.

[Atlas]

Unvote, and a prod on Zeppo please.

It's rather difficult to keep a top suspect that never posts.

Antitown =/= scum.

Where did I call him scum because of this? Because I think that it's a tell? o_0

Don't even send Primate a prod, just replace him. Come on mod, don't be antitown. Replace him even if he keeps posting.

I agree wholeheartedly (whether you were just kidding or not). No hard feelings, Primate.

You are way over-playing this point.

Maybe, but Corvuus isn't calling you scum because of it so I do not see any warranted suspicion on him.

Why post just to say, "avoiding prod, no comments".

Yeah, uhm I think that this issue has gotten more attention than it's worth. What Macavity did('nt do) is minuscule and doesn't point to anything beyond unhelpful town play. I do not think he is scum because of it, and I certainly don't consider him a 'blatant' anti-town player now because Macavity's play has been fairly strong throughout. I appreciate the scum/anti-town-player hunting, but IMO this has been blown out of proportion and is beginning to distract.

---

I did not OMGUS vote for you....as I said when I placed it, the vote was for you being the third voter and it was not immediate.

This doesn't make much sense to me. First of all, when you voted Macavity called your vote OMGUS in the post right after that (#103). You didn't make any mention that your vote wasn't OMGUS, but now you are? The late defense looks somewhat like back-tracking. Also, in that voting post you said

"I will admit that it did make me look a little harder at you seeing as that vote was on me!"

which implies the obvious. Third, your vote

was

immediate because it came in your very next post after Macavity's vote. (Technically second, but #101 is more or less nothing.)

I gave my reasoning back when I voted for you on page 4.

I'm pretty sure that Mitey was referring to Cephir/Evilgorrilaz, not you.

[Atlas]

Yeah, I just realized that. Care to respond?

[Atlas]

I thought that it was prett obvious that the last part on the vote post was a joke. Perhaps my humour doesn't translate well when I'm not speaking though....I mean that seriously. I don't consider my vote was immediately after Macivity's vote....we will have to disagree on that one. I did put my reasoning for the vote in the post. And yes when I said I wanted reasoning I was not referring to Macivity's vote for me....I may not agree with the reasoning but, it was there...hehehe!

For the joking part; fair enough. I don't consider your vote "immediate" in terms of thread movement either, but you didn't do

anything

between his vote and yours; it's not really a matter of opinion. And yes you did give your reason (albeit horribly misguided), but that came before his OMGUS accusation. You failed to defend yourself afterwards there.

By the way, who is your top suspect?

How is this request pro-town?

Because Primate is undoubtedly going to make the game more complicated than it needs to be? Actually, I could only see Cephir's request as scummy if Primate is his scum-buddy and he can't deal with the (apparent) nonsense.

[Atlas]

My top suspect at this point is Cephir for the voting without reasoning and refusing to tell us why when asked. I hate magic bags!

Every time someone mentions this, Cephir says "But I always explained them afterwards" as a defense, which I find acceptable (not that I found it scummy in the first place). To avoid repetition, could you respond to one of several said defenses?

Welcome LlamaLuff! I hope Cougar speaks the truth.

[Atlas]

Zeppo, you aren't my top suspect anymore but for the record I was (am) suspicious of the quick-lynch comment about Cephir's vote. It's pretty minor and I am not so concerned about the role-fishing, as the evidence (and my gut, if it matters) tells me that it's a null-tell.

My top is Mitey for his early "suspicion" on Evilgorrilaz (elaborated in previous posts), the weird vote on Macavity, and his rather back-tracky defense.

Guys, didn't Primate basically say "I'm avoiding work (posting words) because I'm stubborn" in #127? Doesn't that basically confirm he's making the PR up? Or am I totally misinterpreting his pictures?

[Atlas]

It seemed to me that all of Primate's pictures were referring to himself (A monkey, "Little miss Stubborn", How to avoid work).

Mitey, you should set your gender to female in the profile options.

[Atlas]

Argh, abbreviations!

Llama, I was trying to accomplish a move to relevant discussion without the obligatory scape-goat/bandwagon. It seems I failed, though.

[Atlas]

One of the mafia is Mitey, and her buddy is looking to be Cougar right now. Not just because both of them are scummy, but some buddy-tellish actions. Specifically Mitey "following" Cougar on Cephir/Evilgorrilaz and a bit of coaching to Mitey.

[Atlas]

Atlas seems to be hanging on to the Zeppo vote a bit too much right here, since the vote was weakish to start, and given what his views on the case against SC that was recently introduced by Cor is.

If you are referring to #203 I wasn't voicing suspicion on Zeppo there, though I think it was unhelpful that he completely ignored everything Coruvuus put out. I left my vote on him because of this.

By the way, I`m a bit suspicious of Sminty (you) for a couple of reasons.

• 1) The opportunistic vote in #163. It looked like he voted Cephir simply because it was a great place to park his vote without having to explain it fully. And given Cephir's earlier unexplained vote I doubted that Sminty actually found it suspicious, or suspicious enough to vote on.
  2) In his third post Sminty doesn't dedicate himself to any player but spreads out his suspicions strangely. He says "I've got my eye on Evilgorrilaz and Ceph" but is still suspicious of Mitey. Given that Mitey finds Evilgorrilaz and Cephir suspect as well, it just looks like Sminty is trying to keep his options open by suspecting everyone while not going in full force against any player.
  3) I thought his vote on Primate was kind of stupid because he outwardly said "THIS VOTE IF FOR PRESSURE ONLY" and "I DON'T THINK PRIMATE IS SCUM", but that's just me.

Mitey

:

Every time someone mentions this, Cephir says "But I always explained them [my votes] afterwards" as a defense, which I find acceptable (not that I found it scummy in the first place). To avoid repetition, could you respond to one of several said defenses?

I think it's important that you refute a defense provided by your top suspect (still Cephir, right?). Right now I don't see you doing anything with him.

Elmo I don't think that way but I still believe that Mitey is scum and Macavity is town.

Apothecary is just playing ultra-conservative (e.g. "I

think

that

perhaps

Corvuus is scummy")

[Atlas]

Atlas has been slinging lots of mud, trying to find a place where it will stick. It could be an aspect of his early game play and therefore null, but time will tell.

I didn't start suspecting anyone until I voted for Zeppo, where I was suspicious of a grand total of

three

players. I doubt that's much higher than anyone else, especially Sminty, whom in his third post gave an "I'm looking at you without doing anything!" to three players and essentially called four others lurkers. Afterwards I became suspicious of Primate (who didn't?) and Sminty. I believe that was justified and Sminty stopped posting right after, so I couldn't go anywhere with it.

I don’t like Atlas’ entrance, where he tries to bog things down with theory. And I don’t like his more recent buddying.

I was trying to get people into discussion that is relevant to the game. And I don't see how it was possible to "bog things down" when the only thing going on at the time was banter about Mitey's name. What buddying are you talking about?

The worst tell against Atlas, IMO, starts in #157, wherein he tries to transform the pressure wagon on Primate into an alignment wagon.

Not really. I was giving my opinion, not trying to transform anything. At the time I think that everyone who was voting for Primate thought along the lines of "It's anti-town, but not scummy." I disagreed with this and pointed out why.

He does it via a very unlikely hypothesis (that a PR would make it easier to avoid the noose) ...

You say this as if there are any other logical reasons for Primate to fake a PR. As town,

are

there any others? One Primate-town scenario I could think of (pointed out in #171) was that he is simply PRing to get reactions and trap scum going for an easy lynch, which is more distracting than helpful. Especially in hindsight since Primate got replaced.

and a glaringly false dilemma (that either the PR is mod-dictated or Primate is scum)

I did not present a false dilemma because I pointed out the possibility of Primate fishing for reactions. It's true that in #157 I only suggested two situations, but that's because they were the most likely. If I actually believed that his alignment revolved around two scenarios (one of which you agree is wrong) then I would have voted for him.

He initiates and continues to push this stance, citing an assumptive gut feeling, without placing a vote or even a FoS, even though he gets evidence that the PR is voluntary.

My top suspect was Zeppo--I don't have two votes. And a FoS certainly wasn't necessary after I blatantly stated that Primate is scummy.

Once the wagon loses steam, Atlas changes his stance ...

What?

[Atlas]

No, I think it's a glaring scum-tell and I am not defending him.

Middle of the Road.

[Atlas]

Zeppo in your #10, Primate in #12, Sminty in #14, SC in #19, MM in #28, and Rx in #32 (post #’s in isolation). That’s just your suspicions. Mud-slinging also refers to the way you act as neutral instigator in some arguments.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out suspicious activity on six players, especially if your top suspect remains the same for the majority of the time. And now can you cite where I have been a "neutral instigator"?

Everyone. Plenty of people claimed that his voluntary PR was counter-productive. You were the only one who put forth a (flawed) scenario whereby it demonstrated his alignment.

True, but I meant who didn't find him anti-town. This is kind of irrelevant now though.

General theory discussion is relevant to MD, not to this specific game. Bringing it up can be a way to distract the town and eventually lead a witch-hunt against those who disagree with the majority. Scum aren't the only ones who do this, but IME, they do it more often than town.

There are many cases where theory discussion does not value the town, but this isn't one of them. In orde

#10, #19, #23, #24, #27 (in isolation).

Okay, by buddying do you mean buddying up to players or lumping people together? Because several of those posts contain one or the other, or neither.

An opinion based on faulty logic, that possibly serves ulterior motives, pushed without a vote on a growing wagon against an unpopular player is a serious tell in my book. Maybe you were just sharing. Maybe not.

Fair enough. You are up to interpret it the way you want, but I don't see how you could interpret that one post as "pushing". In #14 and #15 I asked Primate suspicion-devoid questions with the intention of getting him to behave more pro-town, which would surely discourage his lynch. In #16 I mentioned a Primate-town scenario, and two posts after that I actually reconsidered my suspicions. Essentially I was acting against his lynch in all outside of

one

post.

And if you look back, right before his wagon died (#172) Primate was only digging his hole deeper by posting an array of characters that would debunk and mod-imposed PR theory in anyone's mind. It wouldn't make any sense for me to attempt to make his situation

better

during a period when Primate wasn't doing himself any good.

Explain how it does.

Like I said earlier if Primate kept up the act without ever stopping, e.g. when he gets dangerously close to a lynch, then some portion of the town would believe that he actually does have a PR. Of course I never did and the same goes for several players, but the amount of people who were either uncertain or willing to let Primate play this way backs up my theory. If the majority of the town decided to let Primate play regularly then he would surely have an easier game.

Saying either A is true or player X is scum where A = something that is obviously untrue, and where other options exist, is a false dilemma. Look it up. Then, rather than pretend you didn't do it, explain why you did it.

Ythill, when you posted your case you

knew

that I considered three possibilities, and you

knew

that I clearly didn't follow only two of them, A) and B). If you restrict the thread to #157 alone, which is what you are doing, then sure I presented a false dilemma. I excluded scenario C) because it seemed like a pretty stupid gambit, but after Primate posted words, numbers and concise diagrams I reconsidered possibility Primate-town C) and posted it.--Not because he seemed more pro-town in those few posts, but because he debunked possibility B) even further.

Player X: "Do you know what time it is?"
Player Y: "Yes, but not right now."

Regardless of what I said above, the time isn't based on your ever-changing opinion. If you asked me if New York City was going to blow up anytime soon and I said "No", and then a day later I found a radioactive exploding man, I would

probably

change that no to "maybe". It follows the same premise of what I did with Primate.

Your lack of a vote was one of the questionable bits. Now you twist it into a defense? You were pushing without voting, hoping that townies would say yeah, you know, that primate is afully scummy and, if they had, I'm certain you would have voted him later.

How is my lack of a vote questionable? I was voting for !Zeppo! because he was my top suspect. And yes, the false dilemma accusation is a defense. If I thought Primate's alignment came down to A) or B) then I would have voted for him, because B) seemed unlikely and the only other scenario was A) which made him scum.

The was you said "just playing ultra-conservative" felt like defending.

I see how you would interpret it that way, but when I said "just" I meant it like "Apoc isn't doing anything helpful but

just

playing ultra-conservatively." Tone is important here.

I agree with #294.

[Atlas]

I just noticed I forgot to respond to a point.

Ythill, I never dropped the Primate-is-scummy argument. The only thing that happened was Cougar looked scummier and succeeded Primate. And since I thought it was unlikely for both of them to be scum, the next likeliest scenario was Cougar- scum and Primate-town.

[Atlas]

I'm surprised that the post restriction was voluntary...

Earlier you said "I don't associate post restrictions with mini normals." Can you explain this?

I disagree with #316; what he interpreted of Cephir's vote, at least. The logic is sound but I doubt it really applies to Cephir for reasons he has stated a hundred million times.

As to my reasons about thinking Macavity and Corv are townish. I play by my gut reactions alot, so while I was typing that last post when I thought of townie players those two names were the first to pop into my head.

Huh, you kind of evaded the question there.

I'm sad. No one is really talking about me.

[Atlas]

Earlier you said "I don't associate post restrictions with mini normals." Can you explain this?

SC, that was directed at you.

[Atlas]

Cougar, your vote significantly loses its psychological effectiveness and credibility when you change it every time someone does something scummy.

Ythill, if you want more votes on me you should make a better case. That includes backing up your accusations, like pointing out where I have been a 'neutral instigator'. It makes no sense to call for votes on a player when you aren't doing everything in your power to show the town how I am scummy. Give the town a good reason to look in my direction, because clearly what you have put out so far hasn't piqued anyone's interest.

First you minimized the width of suspicions, now you say there's nothing wrong with it. I don't like shifting arguments.

First, stop exaggerating. Minimize means to make as small as possible (book definition), or to significantly reduce (my casual definition). I did neither; in my original defense I pointed out five suspects, while leaving out Apoc because I forgot that I had said anything about him. Subtracting an off-hand sentence on one player is in no way 'minimizing the width of suspicions.'

Second, my arguments aren't morphing. My defense in #286 was the same as in #297; the only difference was the addition of one player. In #286 I heavily implied that "there's nothing wrong with pointing out suspicious activity on

six

five players." Direct question: what did you think my defense in #286 was?

Backpeddaling, but forgiveable. It is relevant though, because you were the sole person who thought Primate's play was scummy and you tried to make it seem otherwise.

Okay, my mistake.

All of them contain the former, which is what I said and what I meant. Pick one you do not agree with and I will expound.

#10- Agree with Primate, call Cephir's vote a bandwagon, suspect Mitey and Cougar.
#19- Agree with Macavity & Apoc, think Primate is likely town if Cougar is scum.
#23- Corvuus said something and Macavity didn't deny it (at the time), so I assumed it was true.
#24- Agree with Corvuus.
#27- I accept Cephir's defense.

If you are referring to something else please tell me, but apparently you think that agreeing with a player, thinking they are town, or accepting a defense=buddying.

FoS: Ythill

for rather extreme reaching.

What you did in other posts means nothing. It was a good time for scum to do what you did when you did it. It did not jibe with the rational flow of evidence, but rather with the strategy that would best suit an anti-town alignment.

'Jibe with the rational flow of evidence'? The evidence was: NO ONE actually found Primate scummy, only three players (Corvuus, Sminty, and Cephir) showed much interest in his lynch, Cougar was actively derailing it by throwing suspicions around, Apoc distracted from the situation with a

random vote

, Zeppo claimed to enjoy the PR, Mitey didn't do much either way, and Macavity threw suspicion on the wagon's main pusher AND denied the PR being anti-town. And yet, it is in scum's best interest to be the oddball in the thread and claim that Primate is scummy?

Would it have made him seem more pro-town? No. Would it have helped him blend in? No. Seriously. I can't think of any way it might have helped. Enlighten me.

Would it create more null-tells than any other player? Of course. And null-tells usually don't cause a lynch. Also I deduced from several reactions to Primate's PR that he may achieve a cover for the rest of the game. How is that not deductive?

It allowed you to push a mislynch without getting on the wagon yourself, a common scum-trick.

You think I pushed a mislynch because I expressed suspicion in

one post

while having a totally different top suspect. ¬¬

For example, you failed to respond to my burden-of-proof argument so I am assuming that you are ceding the point that Primate could have been playing the meta-game (or maybe even something else) with his voluntary PR.

Actually I ignored that because you said it was besides the point. For the record, I clearly believe the meta-game strategy if it helps him attain the best win ratio over multiple games (which I think it would have done).

I'm noting that you cherry-picked my post a bit. I don't believe this is a tell, because I do it myself as town.

I don`t know what this means.

They seem more motivated by the placement of others' votes.

Your entire case hangs precariously off of one post, and relies on your own "deductions" that have not yet been elaborated. (Why would scum vote for Primate at the time that I did?) It only works when you ignore

everything

that I said after #157, including my words voiced a mere day later. I consider it silly that you think I would abandon my whole "push a mislynch" scheme one day after I started suspecting the target.

[Atlas]

That post made Ythill your top suspect? It's not so much your vote but how rapidly your top suspicions change.

[Atlas]

Can't make a full post now because I'm about to leave, but I'm not 100% sold on the claim mainly because of what Ythill said. I do think we should avoid lynching him today, ofc.

[Atlas]

It is kind of ironic that SC says apologies don't change anything, then apologizes in the same post.

LOL that's funny. I fell out of my chair.

I was kind of busy Vendredi and Sabado so I'll respond to Ythill and voice my thoughts about the rather spontaneous situation with Apoth after I finish my homework.

[Atlas]

Random questions: Is your name pronounced why-thill or yih-thill? Also I'm not familiar with WoW. Or cherry-picking, but I presume it means picking certain arguments to respond to and ignoring the ones that will cripple your defense on mention. And why is everyone calling him Apoc instead of Apoth?

See? Theory discussion is so boring, you nodded off while trying to defend it.

Whoa, that is scary. I remember exactly what I wrote about theory discussion but somehow it vanished (or maybe I just didn't say it...). Anyways, in order to start discussion I started a discussion about starting a discussion. I don't see how that could be interpreted as trying to distract the town, but hey it's your FoS.

You made six into five. You lumped three together. You pointed out that other players were doing it more. In a word, you minimized. Which is fine. Then you admitted to the widespread suspicions after I cited them, but claimed it was not scummy. If it was not scummy to begin with, why did you minimize it?

I used a different sense of the word. Anyways I minimized my suspicions because earlier you said that I was "slinging lots of mud", which I felt was an inaccurate description of how many suspects I actually had and based on how many everyone else did. I claimed it wasn't scummy because it's not. I used two defenses above because you used two accusations; 1) I slung "lots" of mud, and 2) slinging lots of mud is scummy. I responded to both parts of it.

What part of "pick one" did you not understand? This goes back to that whole "neutral instigator" thing. Let's not cloud the thread with WoW. Since you didn't pick one, I will arbitrarily choose the first: #10.

Because I felt that all of them were either silly or barely scratched the surface of buddy-behavior. Why don't you pick the one that you feel is the most incriminating? As for #10, your reasoning is whoa. 1) My defense was motivated by Zeppo's weird accusation. It's not like I swooped down to defend Cephir from a valid case. And I have nothing to say about my agreement with Primate but I will say that it should be used as an example in the Wiki's definition of "reaching." (At least you admitted it.)

Are you really making the too-scummy-to-be-scum argument? After claiming that Primate's play would help him avoid the noose? Contradict yourself much?

Huh? I wasn't saying that being an oddball in this case makes you scummy (too-scummy-to-be-scum), I'm saying that it's futile to be an oddball as scum because no one shares those views.

Quote fixed. Most everything that happens here is a null tell.

Let me rephrase that. Would his PR make it tremendously harder for players to have a detailed argument with Primate and draw conclusions from the many implications that originate from word-based posts, which are then used to lynch him? Sure.

None of this is evidence of Primate's alignment. All of it is consensus of suspicion on Primate, so you've really just proven my point. You became suspicious of Primate and then backed off even though the evidence of his alignment did not support such changes.

You're (mostly) attacking me for being suspicious of Primate at a convenient time, correct? A "strategy of anti-town alignment" includes suspecting a player when most of the town does already, when scum would go unnoticed. I pointed out that this was not the case as with my oddball defense. 1) How did I prove your point? Only three people called Primate anti-town, none of which believed that he was scummy. 2) I didn't necessarily "back-off" because I never dropped my suspicions on him. If you mean decline in interest, then yes I did back off. 3) I stopped talking about Primate partly because, and I quote, "there were scummier fish to fry". Fish that made him look like townie fish. 4) I had reason, though minor, to think that Primate was town. The diagram in #161 (his most useful post this entire game) definitely showed some improvement in terms of relevant communication. Like I said it was minor, seeing how he never clarified any of it...

The wagon started dying. You backed off without any real cause.

Ythill, I never dropped the Primate-is-scummy argument. The only thing that happened was Cougar looked scummier and succeeded Primate. And since I thought it was unlikely for both of them to be scum, the next likeliest scenario was Cougar- scum and Primate-town.

But you didn't respond to that so I have no idea what to say. If you are talking about my interest decline immediately after #157, I did so because of Primate's obvious improvement in #161 that alleviated my suspicion somewhat.

Another question: you dismiss my immediate posts after #157 that go against your case, yet you take into account the ones that occur pages later? Just because they support your case? Isn't there a scandalous term in the wiki for this act; selective bias, confirmation of bias, biased case, or is it just BIASED? I'm noting that you banana-rolled my post a bit. I do believe this is a tell, because I do it myself as scum.

I hate responding to this game. It's OK guys, you can admit that you aren't reading any of this. No need to say "I'll look into Ythill's case later" while returning with nothing a week later. (Oh who am I kidding, you know who you are. )

Something tells me that Primate labeled me scum in #161 for the same reason that Ythill is now. OMGUS maybe? Outside role information? *pulls a Zeppo*

No I'm not finished with my defense against Ythill but I just wanted to respond to the direct bits before I lose sleep.

---

Since Ythill actually presented a decent case on Atlas I believe, I will unvote Ythill and demote him to a minor FoS: Ythill (I still don't like the fact that he's trying to rush us). I want other people to give their input before I do anything else, though.

I don't think Ythill is trying to rush my lynch as much as check out reactions. (Whoops! I blew your cover!)

To me Cephir's defence was not really a defence. Getting out of the random stage is going to happen...rushing it just made him look Scummy to me.

Why does that seem scummy? I would think getting out of the random stage is the towniest thing you could do at that time.

Ythill, who else's post count have you looked up? o.o

Cougar can you summarize your top suspects in one sentence?

Yes, Apoth's initial read on the claim is utter lose but I don't think it warranted a three-vote combo.

SC's reaction to 379 is almost as though it's not SC himself who was the one Apoth was talking about. Weird.

I noticed that too. It makes me wonder why Cougar voted for Apoth in the first place.

[Atlas]

Asking you to choose was an effort to narrow the discussion without manipulating it. I was trying to be fair.

I wasn't questioning why you didn't pick a post, you know. I just wanted you to choose another.

Good scum will always have a reason. It's the number of instances that is most alarming. It belies a townie's level of paranoia.

Being paranoid doesn't mean refuting every defense and never agreeing with a player because they might be scum. If you see me write off a player as town because I agree with them, then you can claim that I'm not paranoid enough to be a townie. I do realize that I am not overly suspicious of a few players that I have agreed with, but that is based on their logic and whether I get to post before them.

Shifting again. You're barking up too many trees.

I'm not shifting, I thought this entire time that "you had convenient suspicions" meant "you had suspicions when it would be easy to get everyone to agree with you and lynch Primate", which directly relates to what everyone thought rather than how Primate was acting.

I just insisted that something you said later does not change the weight of what you said in #157.

Isn't insisting something does not matter basically dismissing it? I get what you are saying though, but I still think it's a bit unfair.

I believe this may be the most important point of our debate. I need to understand how you came to the conclusion that the PR was scummy, rather than just anti-town.

I think so too. I'll start with the general concept; at the time I believed that Primate's main goal was to convince the town that his PR was real, a feat that you agree would make him less likely to be lynched. In theory I wouldn't expect a player to be able to convince the town that he actually had a PR, but that obviously changed when several players believed he had a PR, couldn't make up their mind, or did not find him anti-town either way. Whatever.

This first begins in #77 where Macavity doesn't express any discontent for the PR and subtly praises it. This is pretty minor, though. In #112 Sminty gives a similar reaction to Primate's pictures. #122 Cougar says that Primate's picture posting does not warrant any votes and notes that he still may be able to communicate with the town. By #131 Macavity comes out and says that he doesn't think Primate's PR is anti-town or scummy at all, despite the fact that he is not being as informative as he could be (this is what I'm getting at).

In the next post Cougar agrees that #127 and #128 by Primate, which more or less follows Macavity's reasoning that Primate can be left alive without adverse consequences. Yet another player (EvilGorrilaz) jumps in the thread and says that Primate's posts are possible to understand, while FoSing the pressure vote. In #149 Zeppo says that he is enjoying Primate's PR. Most of Page 6 is just Cougar defending Primate from a policy lynch. On Page 7 Corvuus posted a pretty convincing case and Cephir jumped on Primate's wagon. He never outwardly supported Primate so that didn't really influence #157, anyways.

I saw this progression of events the same way that Corvuus did

("If we don't deal with this now, and what I see as a voluntary PR, then he is just going to coast through the game and we can't determine meta, scum-town-tells, etc. since it is a picture.")

. The Primate supporters/don't carers (Macavity, Cougar, EG, Zeppo, Mitey) outnumbered the players that wouldn't allow Primate to play with a PR (Corvuus, Sminty, Cephir) and Apoth didn't say anything on the subject. Reading through this, and being a non-supporter of Primate's PR, it is easy to come to the conclusion that Primate's goal was to coast through the game by winning over most of the town. He had already pulled an avid supporter (who was ironically his top suspect) and most others supported him as well or didn't show any interest in his lynch. When I got a chance to post after #156, clearly I saw that several people were allowing Primate to have an easy game and his true motivations started to make sense.

Why would Primate risk doing this, while not knowing how the town would react? That is something you brought up; for meta-game purposes. You said yourself that he may have been trying to "attain the best win ratio over multiple games" (actually I have no idea why you said this, because a townie is more likely to lose if he fakes a PR) which could be applied to town or scum. Maybe he was testing out a new strategy and didn't care so much about how it would turn out.

---

I admit it, you got me. I've been busy wrapping up work in time for my Thanksgiving vacation. Between that and the WoW between you two, I'm having a hard time going through all this. (I didn't know the term either, but it certainly applies in this case.) I'm going to try to dig in to this when I'm home, and I promise I'll get to it eventually.

You know, I wasn't talking to anyone in particular. When typing #386 I recalled several (or at least, it seemed like several) players saying that they would give their input in this around the time that Ythill replaced in. Ofc I didn't remember seeing any input so I just threw that out there. Thanks for confessing though.

(I missed the part about the pronunciation of Ythill's name, as if it's relevant. I've always pronounced the Y and the T individually in my head, e.g. "why-tee-hill".)

And I thought pronouncing it 'why-thill' was weird...

Going back in thread to analyze Primate-supporters, I noticed a pretty opportunistic vote from Sminty. In #112 he says that Primate's posts are "rather entertaining" and doesn't give another tick about it, but a day later he follows Corvuus on a developing wagon with a vote that greatly contrasts from how he felt about it earlier. This makes no sense because Primate didn't do anything in that time frame to make himself seem more useless.

Llama, I agree that some of Ythill's points were reaching or silly and that the overall case is weak, but I didn't necessarily find it a scum-tell. There are a few original points in there though.

I'll read the quote war between Cougar and Corvuus (wait--what?

Another

one!?) later but right now it seems kind of weird. Suspicions coming in next post as well. Oh and yeah, sorry for the walls of text. I hate them myself. Hopefully I can post more frequently so I don't have to bundle everything into one post.