Mini 695 - Futurama Mafia - Over

[Dukes]

/confirm

[Dukes]

Okay, so... just to let you guys know, I've been reading a few other games here on MS.n and frankly, it amazes me how long they are. Most online games I've done last under 500 posts. Total. For 20+ players.

Then again, there's a lot of "Follow the Cop" and "Bandwagons" over there... so if my play seems uninspired or erratic at first, I apologize -- I'm just getting used to a slower game.

[Dukes]

Happy Birthday Mod.

Let's see here... since it appears everyone confirmed... hey, a vote on me already? Oh, sure, pick on the new guy!

I hate day starts -- a stab in the dark never helps if it can be avoided -- and would prefer a No Lynch here, to be honest. So for now, I'll sit back and wait.

*chugs a beer*

[Dukes]

why in the world would you want a no lynch already on day one Dukes?

I never understood starting with a shot in the dark. Shouldn't we give the Cop a chance to find something instead of pulling a name out of a hat that, for all we know,

is

the Cop?

I mean, I'm willing to do a lynch for certain if we come up with ironclad evidence, but for now, screw it. All My Circuits is on.

[Dukes]

Fair enough, I understand. Like I said, different style, different theory, but I'll play along with what (upon further reading of this board) appears to be tradition.

Vote: Xtoxm

just to get him to talk.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be in my closet.

[Dukes]

Role hinting much?

Ya think?

Fair enough, but why Xtoxm exactly? He posted before the day started, and there are others that have yet to post or even confirm.

He already had a vote. Seemed safe. Anyway, now that I've done enough damage to this popsicle stand,

Unvote.

Not much else going on here... so I'll be back later.

[Dukes]

Okay, so let me get this straight.

Poro is claiming that he has Xtoxm as the Serial Killer. Xtoxm

admits this

, then goes on to say he's essentially lost and will turn vig for the time being. He then counter-yells that only Scummies get a Day Cop role. While I have heard of a Scumcop-type role, I've never heard of any role in which you investigate in the day. (Maybe they're common and I'm playing the wrong games.)

Anyway, my cynic-sense is tingling...

FoS: Xtoxm

and

Poro

Have we considered the idea that Poro is bussing Xtoxm? His rationale for saying Xtoxm is SK is that "he's always SK". Xtoxm then says, "Dammit, I hate when you're right, daycop and therefore scum." Ever since, the two have been arguing back and forth over this. The idea is that Xtoxm gets lynched Day 1 and turns up, not SK, but scum anyway. Now we all pat Poro on the back and Follow the Cop straight to Losertown. Or, perhaps, Xtoxm is the Mafia Don with "Last to Go Protection"; then we've wasted our lynch. I'm not which, if either, is the likely outcome, but the players doth protest a tad too much for my liking.

[Dukes]

[quote=Xtoxm]No. And I believe i've played you twice as scum and me town, and town won in both, and I was part of lylo in both. [/quote]

Well, there's a red herring right there. Avowed SK + faulty logic = better off without him.

Vote: Xtoxm

[Dukes]

While I have been sort of wagon-ing thus far, my vote stays on Xtoxm, and I feel it's clear why. He's claimed he is the Serial Killer -- so by definition, he is a Threat to the Town. Isn't it better to lynch a known threat rather than to poke around for a second one? Bird in the hand and all that.

[Dukes]

I'll go ahead and upgrade my FoS to a

Vote: Dukes

.

Dukes, you're not being at all shy about your insinuation that you're a robot:

Role hinting much? Razz

Ya think? Wink

Why do you think that's helpful for the town as something to do on pages 1 and 2?

Because I can tell you right now that:

1) I have the town role my breadcrumbs (or bread slices) are pointing towards;
2) There's no way anyone making a Futurama Mafia would ever

not

include this character in it.

Honestly, what do I have to do to get you to stop lookin' at me? Introduce you to my "evil" twin? Geez.

Look, we have the SK dead-to-rights at L-2. This is not FoS time, it's Hammer time! If the argument is that you want to wait and get more info from others, fine; but why vote of all things? I'm willing to talk.

[Dukes]

I think I'll

UnFoS: Poro

for now. Re-reading my own argument and recap:

1. Poro sounds like he got lucky, or
2. Poro is a day-cop, which is not universally a scum ability, or
3. My conspiracy theory is right.

I rank these in order of likelihood. Admittedly, I sounded more paranoid than I should've. But we'll see. In the meantime, shouldn't we work on taking out the person who is wearing a big neon sign saying "I AM SCUM"?

Confirm Vote: Xtoxm

[Dukes]

"It's possible, and it's the case in this game. Your comment is not a joke and makes no sense unless you are a Mafia Rolecop."

Wow, sore loser much? I mean, really, he takes a stab in the dark with a probe vote, and the first thing you do is break down and confess, then act like everyone who's against you is a scummie? Seriously, I know I'm the newbie to this board, but that may be the worst play by a SK I've seen in ages. Even if he is a day-cop, which couldn't be proven and as we've clearly seen would not be considered gospel anyway, you could've at least claimed he was paranoid, naive, or bluffing rather than throwing the game like that!

Anyway, I'm torn on whether to ask any protectors to use it on Poro. It's true he led us in the first lynch and all, but OTOH, it may have been a stab in the dark. Guessing which it is turns into WIFOM in my head and makes it hurt badly. I will, however, say that if there is a doctor out there, don't bother using it on me, since I have no ability anyway.

[Dukes]

First question: What's V/LA stand for? I know it means "AFK", but still.

So, to the game. As a matter of first recourse, if I had to make a blind stab at who gets the next rope, I'd guess either Jahudo, Zorblag, or pacman. Not because I have any hard evidence yet -- though if anyone does, I'd like to hear it -- but because Xtoxm confessed scummie and they still voted for someone else. Of them, Zorblag's really bothers me, because even after the hammer vote cast by Xtoxm himself, he's trying to come up with a way that Xtoxm could be a non-scum role. So, for a half-probe, half-OMGUS vote...

Vote: Zorblag

[Dukes]

Look, I don't understand why the votes. I've been blatantly obvious about my situation from the word "go". I don't want people wasting their time on me when there are more important people to protect.

The conspiracy theory is clearly out the window now, because Xtoxm was who he said he was. As for whether Poro is with us or against us, I think it's entirely probable he made a stone cold bluff and got lucky. For the record,

under NO circumstances do I support at Day 2 lynch of Poro right out of the gate.

Only if the bussing theory was true would I have suggested it. Since it's clearly false, we move on.

Now, as for the possibilities, let me try to deduce them. (I'll admit, I'm traditionally much weaker earlier on, but here goes nothing...)

If a Town Cop

: Poro clearly got lucky in this case. If he is a daycop, then he's a valuable asset who can pick apart someone and figure out whose side they're on. In this case, I would suggest it wait until closer to "afternoon", so that once it becomes clear there's a hint of where to go, he can derail what would otherwise be a potentially crippling lynch.

If a Scum Cop

: The play above could be seen as a safety net for the town. Suppose that we're at L-2 for a townie. Poro makes the check and reports he's scum. That's enough for us and the player goes down.

Well, let's assume for the moment we're at 7 town and 3 mafia. Upon seeing the player we were TOLD was scum be a townie, Poro is essentially dead to rights, because either he was blatantly lying or he was conned, and frankly if conmen are day actions this game is broken. At this point, our lynch of the SK (and I apologize for using "scum" and "threat to the town" interchangeably) buys us a day. After the nightkill, day lynch, and nightkill, we'd be down to 4 town and 2 Mafia -- which is endgame, yes, but frankly our next bad lynch puts us at endgame if there were 3 Mafia.

On the other hand, if we're 8 town and 2 Mafia -- which gives us the 25% scum -- then our play would allow us to have, by my count, two stabs at victory after the above scenario runs its course.

If Other Townie

: I think for the sake of the bodyguard, it would be nice to know so we don't go wasting protection on him. I know, I know, people don't like claiming this, that, or the other, but in a Theme Mafia, I've seen benefits to mass-claiming, and it's partly why I did it to start. If you force a claim from a scum player, there's a chance his lie will be in the game, and then he's in deep trouble. Then again, it's clear the people on this board are a quantum level higher than those I'm usually playing with or against. Even so, if Poro is vanilla, why would he smokescreen?

If Other Scum

: His most likely play would be to claim he is a Town Daycop, but again, that would only buy him one day. If the Mafia only has 2 or 3 people in it, what good does bussing one of them do? As shown above, we're practically in a best-of-three situation as it is, so do you want to give up "game 1"?

Anyway, the point of all this duplicitous overthinking and most likely half-baked analysis is this:

In a game with a small Mafia, it is almost a disaster for one of them to claim Cop.

Especially day cop, which is a role I'm not even convinced is in the game right now.

So if you were to ask me what the odds are: I'd say it's most likely he's non-Cop town, with a chance of being non-Cop Mafia. Now...

Having re-read my own stuff and a few others', I will start with

Unvote.

I wanted to hear Zorblag's argument for voting for me (so in that sense, saying "OMGUS"

was

the probe), and I've heard it. Hopefully I can make sense of this a little more with this post.

I don't think Gorrad was bread-crumbing at all. Certainly not as much as I was, although that would take some effort.

What really gets me, though, and this is legitimate: Llama seems hellbent on implicating Wolf, Kloud, and myself because of an argument that we wanted Poro gone today. Kloud retracted his statement almost immediately, my argument was based on paranoid conspiracy that I even admitted at the time was far-fetched (and which has since been debunked), and Wolf became suspicious just by suggesting the role exists. On top of this, Llama accuses Wolf of not doing much scum-hunting when there was a darned good reason he didn't: we found one!

Wolf's right: Llama seems to be getting tunnel vision here, and I'd kinda like to know why.

[Dukes]

DP:

The probe was "Why the heck am I considered a threat?" OMGUS just summed it up better than a question ever would. Wasn't a matter of wisdom -- there's no way with this game a bandwagon will form, so I could easily listen to his response and remove my vote a few hours later -- which I did.

I can understand if the train of thought I'm on is hard to follow. But it seems to me that if you (as Zorblag did) refuse to vote for a self-outed scum player, it's a bizarre choice. Why prolong the inevitable? And in a game where players make double-digit posts on Day 1, can you really say you don't know anything about players?

Okay, enough of my parallel universe experience ranting. It's like this: as I said, OMGUS was the probe. In no way was it meant to be a solid vote. I wanted to hear what made me suspicious so I could refute it. I still think Llama's play is distressing, because he not only is convinced he's found a scum, he appears to be convinced he's found ALL the scum -- but, he's also one of the few guys who has a lead. Poro's not suspicious -- well, no more than any other generic player is. GW is quiet and Pacman is away, but it's too soon to do a Lurk-Lynch.

I really don't like the implication we've given the Mafia the initiative (Zorblag), because by the very nature of the game they already had it, so that's false reasoning. That's kind of why I'm surprised people are upset at my announcement of who I am: The more information that is on the table, the smaller the relative gap between the uninformed and the informed.

Besides, as I said before, given that I've seen whole games started and finished in the span of the three weeks this game has for a day period, we will

not

be starving for information.

Okay, so I'm re-reading Day 1. And there is something I find really amazing... unfortunately, I almost feel guilty bringing it up because there's no chance for defense. Ah, but what the heck:

Pacman's confirm post happened after Xtoxm exploded. He jokingly voted for Poro before retracting it and voting for Jahudo. Then, when asked what the heck just happened, he pointed the FoS at the person who asked him. All this when we had a known Threat to the Town already out there. He then continued not to vote for the admitted Serial Killer. When asked about this, he said he was worried about there being a bomb or a jester. Those roles I could buy being in a 24-person game, but a 12? Wouldn't only the essentials be in a game like that?

Now, since it appears I'm more out of place than the token Washington National at the MLB All-Star Game, I'll stop short of voting just yet. But... doesn't Pacman's play seem kind of odd in retrospect?

[Dukes]

I'm getting some town vibes from Llama and kloud. wolf and pacman need to post more about different stuff. Dukes could be scum but I get this kind of gut feeling on

new players not used to the slower pace

either. He's worth looking at more though.

Bingo!

GW is quiet and Pacman is away, but it's too soon to do a Lurk-Lynch.

If you want to pressure them, do so. But why speculate about a lynch over someone that doesn't post? When is that a good idea?

Isn't one of the classic beginner's scumtells to say nothing and let go with the flow, knowing "the flow" is mathematically more likely to lead to a townie? Again, as you speculated, this may be a pacing issue.

That's kind of why I'm surprised people are upset at my announcement of who I am: The more information that is on the table, the smaller the relative gap between the uninformed and the informed.

1. It leads to speculation over power roles, which can help scum decide who to night kill if we're right.
2. It leads to believing in the burden of proof. Scum could wait and claim good guys that haven't been claimed yet, or pick an obscure minor character right off the bat.
Do you disagree that these are bad for town / good for scum?

Yes, both of those are reasons not to. Even in the other games, it's a tricky thing. However, considering the person I've claimed is (1) almost certainly in the game and (2) not counter-claimed by anyone, I feel slightly justified. Nevertheless, in the future I'll hold off until the rope's halfway around my neck -- is that fair?

Anyway, since it appears my train of thought is finally on a good track, I'll make it official:

FoS: Pacman

[Dukes]

What do you mean by "since my train of though appears to be on a good track?"

Just that most of what I've thrown out there has been dismissed, for better or worse, as "bad logic". I'm kind of excited I've finally got a good argument for once.

Zorblag: But that's just IT. You listed a reason for re-voting that got to me. Again, trying to work my way around different methods of play, that's all. Plus, it's pretty clear from how you've addressed others that keeping my vote on you is a mistake. As of now, I'm not sure where to go other than not at me.

And with that, I'll just re-iterate that Pacman is my prime suspect and wait for him to return.

[Dukes]

EBWOP: Okay, "You listed a reason that got to me" makes no sense. I meant to say: "You listed a reason for re-voting that made sense to me." NOW I'll be quieter.

[Dukes]

1. Because it seemed like people were getting derailed. They were arguing over whether Poro was or wasn't a scum player. Meanwhile, a REAL scum player was sitting there needing to be lynched.

2. And...
3. Because I have no ironclad evidence, I have nothing more than a random suspicion, and every time I suggest something I become more and more suspicious in everyone's minds. So, as both a townie and as a player, it's in my best interest to shut up and let the investigation go the way it's supposed to.

I believe Pacman is the most likely scum at this point due to his "bomb/jester" explanation. But he won't be around for two more days. So I'm not sure what my next act should be, especially since every other thought I've had seems to turn people against me.

So I'll ask you now: what do you want from me?

[Dukes]

Yeah, I read it differently, and here's why. Voting for a known Threat To The Town is not "going with the flow". It is necessary. I also misread all the chaos and thought poro had confirmed cop.

I'm focusing on myself because I have to defend myself. I'm being accused left and right.

Okay, let's look at what's going on here: I still don't understand Llama's going after wolf. I also think Pacman is coming up with a very lame excuse for not voting for a Known Threat. And yeah, I've been scattershot... but it's early. I can't find any patterns, so I'm throwing things at the wall to see whether any of them make sense.

Poro did claim X was SK, but did so in jest. X then said there must be a day cop. Everyone then began discussing the possibility that there was one. I had yet to play a game where there was a day cop.

Basically, I got off to a hideous start here and need to recover a bit. So I'll take some time off and re-read to see if I can get a lead outside of Pacman, which is where my thoughts lie.

[Dukes]

Here's the thing: if all I'm doing is drawing suspicion to myself, I'm not playing well. It appears I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. Since I'm halfway to being lynched, I might as well confirm my role-claim.

I am Bender. Although I'm town aligned, I have no ability because, let's face it, would you trust Bender to do anything other than get drunk at night? The only thing I have to offer is another body... in many ways.

Okay, that out of the way, and hopefully it'll keep me from being lynched, BUT...

If the only thing Pacman did wrong was being scared of a bomb or jester role, I'd write it off as overthinking. But one of his first acts was to cast a random vote, then once asked why he voted the way he did, he changed his vote to his accuser. It seemed rather fast to be paranoid.

And by the way, my statement was not meant as an Appeal to Emotion, but a genuine asking for advice. I've gotten it: keep talking.

So, DP's meta-analysis: GW has said on Twilight of Day 1 that he was incredibly busy and was going to sit back and analyze everything. He then went on to provide the just in case vote on X -- a vote not needed. So yeah, he's being very quiet, but I've already said I'm not too hot about a Lurk-Lynch.

Zorblag seems to be the one who's most suspicious of me, so hopefully I can re-assure him and the rest of you that this is a red herring. It looked like Llama wanted us to think he trapped wolfram, but I'm wavering like crazy as to who to believe there. I think one of them and ONLY one of them is scum as of now, because of how quickly they turned on each other. My case against Pacman is stated, and I just await his word. The most recent string of posts makes me believe Poro and Kloud are good. So...

My suspicion list:
1. Pacman -- The posting has been rather brief and erratic.
2. GW -- The posting has been rather non-existent.
3. Wolf/Llama -- Their little snap just rubs me the wrong way.
4. DP -- He's been quiet most of the game and recommends lynching an inactive; right or wrong, it's rather dangerous.

I am ambivalent about Zorblag and Jahudo, as they don't seem particularly towny or scummy right now.

At this point, I trust Kloud and Poro. I of course also trust myself, even if I appear to be the only one.

[Dukes]

Three votes and two FoSs, actually, Llama. Which, if they convert, becomes L-1. Pac, Zorblag, and Kloud voted, with Wolf and Poro suspicious. And you, for that matter. So it made sense to claim then to me.

For me, the difference between 2 through 4 is pretty low. Lurking is a common enough scumtell -- especially in a minigame like this -- that it puts me off. But DP's only contribution has been to point that out, which puts him on the list.

Pacman is 1 not because he's V/LA, but because he got defensive right from the get-go. If you look at his first votes, he cast one at random, was asked why, and switched to the person who asked. This got a "wait, what?" from everyone, but no further. GW is 2 because he's Way Too Quiet. He's back from his absence, but has only posted essentially to say he was back.

I'd like to know what DP thinks of Pacman and the Wolf/Llama dichotomy, though, which will help me evaluate him better -- he's essentially there because he's the least trustworthy of the "probables".

[Dukes]

"In many ways" was an attempt at a pun. Bah. Ignore it.

And there were enough full votes and FoS's to doom me, so I fullclaimed. Maybe I did so too soon... but at least you know who I am. And yeah, Bender was a wild card, but he was more anti-hero than villain.

But that's that. I'll ask Wolf and Llama -- do the two of you suspect each other as strongly as it was implied you did a few RL days ago? Why or why not?

[Dukes]

There were two votes (at least I believe so) on you, when the needed number of votes to lynch was/is six at this point. FoSes do not put you closer to a lynch in any way, so you were nowhere close to "being doomed." The full claim at L-4 was completely unnecessary, and as others have already pointed out, claiming Bender does not do much to change my suspicions, even if he was more "anti-hero," as you say.

It was at L-3, or more importantly, L/2. I had 2 votes at the top of the page and one added halfway through, meaning I was at the point where if we ran out of time I was a goner. Plus enough FoS's were thrown at me that, if they acted on them, it was lynch time.

Pac, I'm saying you're acting scummy because it bore a very strong resemblance to an OMGUS FoS. I also wish to point out that Jahudo said my logic made some sense, and he wanted to hear what you thought of certain issues -- issues you haven't addressed because you'd rather attack the Easy Target who's halfway to the gallows anyhow. Go find his post before you spout off on the target everyone else is looking at -- or re-affirming the bandwagon you tried to start.

Vote: Pacman

[Dukes]

I never said it was authoritative. It was simply a way of telling Pacman I'm not alone in thinking the way I did. It was a way of pointing out that Pacman was smokescreening -- instead of addressing other people's concerns, he goes after the person who's already the furthest ahead. His Day 2 posts at the time dealt pretty much with only one person who had (admittedly) played the strangest on Day 1 among those still alive.

Just think about something here, people: Pacman's return post was aggressive, written with massive capital letters, standoffish, and ignored a concern shared in favor of trying to start a bandwagon on the person who objectively was most likely to have it go through. When called upon this, he continued his standoffish behavior, not offering any real opinion on anyone else but instead continuing to push for the lynch of a full-claimed townie.

(I understand that saying I'm Bender doesn't fully clear me, but remember: even though he's a robot, he has "the heart of a human.")

So, while I'm not trying to make false appeals, I'll take any lifeline I can get.

[Dukes]

DP -- I'm looking into other GW games as you suggested, and your meta-ing so far seems to be an honest play. My apologies.

However, I need to look up my Futurama history a bit... I get that the sipping and stuff is simply DP being DP, to paraphrase Red Sox fans, but why the rhyming couplets? Is that also your "thing" or is it a post restriction?

My vote on X "seemed safe" was about being on the right wagon/train. Like I said, very erratic play on Day 1 = I deserve some suspicion, admittedly. As for "staying alive more than winning", I was always under the impression that if you didn't stay alive, you couldn't win.

KMD: you are giving off a very town vibe early on. So at this point, I suspect Pacman primarily, and the Wolf/Llama exchange still baffles me. I admit to being more certain than you are to Kloud's towniness. Zorblag and Jahudo I need to pay a tad bit more attention to, so let me re-read and I'll think out loud later.

Oh, and one more thing I couldn't find on the wiki -- what's a JOAT?

[Dukes]

I am curious what this breadcrumb is as well, Pacman. The only people I can see who have crumbed are myself and Wolf.

And to the rest of the town, I do apologize for the misguided behavior. Let's get crackin'.

About Gorrad's quasi-breadcrumb: anyone who knows Futurama knows Zoidberg is a doctor and not a good one. I didn't take that as breadcrumbing so much as theme knowledge.

I have a fingerNAIL of suspicion for Zorblag, and I would like some discussion on it: During day 1, he was unwilling to vote for the SK under the idea that we needed to talk more, a line of reasoning I didn't understand then and don't necessarily agree with now. The only other thing he's done is lean on me repeatedly, almost to the exclusion of the rest of the game. Basically, ever since my "could Poro and X be in cahoots" post, which even I admit is far-fetched, I haven't seen him say anything concrete about anyone else.

At all.

While Poro is very low on my list of suspects, I suggest we keep an eye out on him as the day progresses. Yes, he "found" Xtoxm, but that might have been a lucky shot. I've been too eager to clear him based on this, so I'll just go more slowly and re-evaluate.

Earlier posts make me feel more confident moving Jahudo to the town side of the ledger. He made early arguments for keeping the SK alive and seeing if we could use him to our benefit, but so far in Day 2 he's been good at picking others apart, especially Pacman. And yes, I'm biased because Pacman is my prime suspect right now.

KMD and Kloud -- at this point I don't feel comfortable talking about it, so I'll let those two debate some more before coming to a verdict.

[Dukes]

KMD -- there's a lot of negativity here, and because you just arrived, I can't tell if it's sorting things out or finding a scum or what's going on. I only mean there's a disturbance in the force, but I can't tell what sort. So while discussion is good, I haven't formulated my thoughts yet, so half-bakery is bad.

Pacman -- Check Page 8.

Llama -- It's not a matter of playing the two of you off of each other. It's a matter of there was a bit of a fight, and I didn't know if it was resolved.

[Dukes]

Okay, it's like this: you come in guns blazing and say you think Kloud's behavior is suspicious. He fires back with a long diatribe otherwise, but it's based on my behavior, so I understand why he feels he was justified. Then you say "Wait! You said x and that's not good!" Then he says "That's not what I meant." Then... yeah, at this point it sounds more like two townies getting on the same page rather than a successful scum-find, but for a while I was trying to decide whose wine to drink.

As it stands, there aren't too many people I can clear, of course. I'm still curious what others think of Zorblag having blinders on me, and my vote remains with Pacman until further notice. It appears Llama and Wolf have made peace with each other, so that's another pair I need to re-evaluate. DP's couplets sound forced and rather off-meter -- was there anyone at Planet Express who was a bad poet? Poro I need to re-read, but... yeah. This game is amazingly tricky. So, at this point let's recap:

KMD vs Kloud -- sounds like a misunderstanding; neither side is too scummy for suspicion yet.
Wolf vs Llama -- I'll wait to see how Llama reposts, but for now Wolf appears clear.
Pacman -- gives off a very bad vibe for reasons I've said in the past.
Zorblag -- seems hellbent on lynching me, so take that for what you will.
Jahudo -- playing his cards somewhat close to the vest, but doesn't register on my ScumDar.
Poro -- playing decently, although hasn't really said much to give a good read, much like Jah.
DP -- Are the couplets a clue? I'd like to see a tad more activity from him.

[Dukes]

To be honest, DP -- and yeah, when I said "clear" I meant "town vibe" -- I don't think that's the best of reasons to vote Zorblag. Llama started by naming Wolf, Kloud, and myself as suspects sometime early on Day 2. Zorblag's not the first person to run with the number 3 -- I was working under the assumption of a 3-man Mafia as well. Also, to be fair, it's better to give more names than fewer. By the way, you bring a six-pack for the rest of us? I could use some beer right now.

As I said, Zorblag, it was frustrating but understandable. Thank you for going into more detail as to your feelings on others. I will agree that Jahudo is the tough nut to crack; however, I'm willing to wait on Llama until he gets in a re-evaluation. As it stands now, he has three targets -- named above -- and I'm pretty certain he's 0 for 3. I'm not sure whether Wolf's statement was theme-humor or a roleclaim, and Kloud has laid out his argument very well.

At this point, the only person I'm picking up more bad than good is Pacman, hence my vote. I feel more confident about you, although if you go and pull an Xtoxm over DP's claim I'm going to laugh bitterly.

All in all, this is one of the most difficult games to read I've ever been in. I love it.

[Dukes]

The whole "close to the vest" thing means that it's just hard to get a read on you. This may be more me than you, though.

When you look at it the way you have, yes, it appears I exaggerated their intent. I saw how he played after that phase (scared of voting for an avowed SK and basically being terse as Zorblag puts it), then went back and analyzed too much. That said, I'm not about to remove my vote, since the most recent part of his play has been very unhelpful. I don't quite think straw-manning as you defined it applies, but I'm not sure

what

I'd call it. (Dismissing the whole argument based on misreading the first part would be straw-manning, for example, but you're not doing that so that's out too. Am I making sense?)

Anyway, Llama: you say that Wolf would be a good "future lynch". Apart from the fact that he took the possibility of X's "scum-day-cop" accusation as being feasible, what other evidence is there?

[Dukes]

Wow -- so Llama casts a vote on someone who already has suspicion but isn't the person you want to vote for... and you think it's noteworthy? You think somehow that raises the possibility we're in league together? Rather a strange way to think about it. It seems you're too hung up on me right now. Let me ask: is KMD equally suspicious because of his vote on pacman?

FoS: Zorblag

for steering everything back to me. The last thing we need is blinders.

[Dukes]

You can be confused by Xtoxm's play -- heaven knows we all thought it odd -- but honestly, your play didn't get much stronger as the game went on. While I hate to use a superficial reason on top of all the others I've noted, SHOUTING AT PEOPLE WHO QUESTION YOU DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD. It doesn't help the conversation and makes people more likely to dismiss your point as a ranting. (Yeah, I know, I know -- I'm one to give advice.)

To me, it's not your defense on Llama -- who is not in my line of sight yet -- but rather the angry tone of your posts, plus the terse evaluation of people's arguments (in the "nine points" post) that put me off the most. It seems to come across as you being appalled anyone could possibly think you're anything but a saint -- and unless you're the mayor of a Mafia game, you're a suspect. (Maybe even then, for all we know.)

[Dukes]

While I hate to use a superficial reason on top of all the others I've noted, SHOUTING AT PEOPLE WHO QUESTION YOU DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD.

This. It didn't seem a large enough point and does not make you scummy.

Yeah, just to be clear, it's not the condemning factor, but I still wanted to bring it up because unless it's a "gimmick-post", there's no need for it.

[Dukes]

BZZZT...
You are misinterpreting.
Xtoxm's play confused me, but I didn't mean that Xtoxm is the guilty of my actions.
The main reasons I'm being lynched are, as I see:
My case against

Dukes

(and I can't see why)
My crappy posts about Porochaz
My random votes day 1 (

Dukes

really misrepresentated that to all, and Llama is also trying to use it against me, just because I didn't believe Xtoxm's claim (something that is pretty incredible...)

Answering well to you (Llama):
I've deffended myself, didn't you see? Yeah, I'm a little resigned because the ones voting me are looking like not removing their votes (mostly

Dukes

and you).
... doesn't know how to finish the post...

Really, you don't have to finish the post. It's pretty clear what you're doing here, which is to say that the other person who's up for elimination is the one putting you up for elimination. While I understand the panic move and likely would be -- would be? Heck, am -- doing the same thing, it's not much to go on and frankly, the two of us yelling at each other doesn't help matters.

Since we're both on L-2, why don't we put all our cards on the table right now. Here's my defense:

1.

I have fully roleclaimed.

Believe it or disbelieve it, I have at least a full claim of a main character in the series that no one has counter-claimed on yet.

2.

There's a clear moment where my play changes.

If you look at Day 2, you can see when the light goes on for me. Most of my early play is a survival play, under the misguided opinion that such was a prereq to winning. Ever since, I've been much more forthcoming and more analytical of others' posts. You, meanwhile, have stuck on me like glue.

3.

I'm trying to find a second scum.

Your most recent post towards Llama is the only time I can find evidence that you've even questioned anyone outside of me. Just as before, though, it's due to his questioning you.

4.

I've commented fully on everyone.

And I'll do it again, because this may be my last post before getting lynched:

* Pacman -- The reason you're highest on my list has nothing to do with a misinterpretation or anything else. It has to do with how you're reacted to being suspected -- that is to say, by becoming highly defensive and getting laser-vision on the "other" suspect. Yes, there's an element of pot/kettle/black here, but the record shows I was the first to vote for you, and nothing you've done since has convinced me it's a bad idea. The "BZZZZT" is just another example of the kind of play that's off-putting and really lowers my opinion of you town-wise.

* Zorblag -- I don't fault him for focusing on me to the exclusion of others, because a lot of that is my own nervousness kicking in. Truth is, he's provided strong cases to clear quite a few people, and I can't find a flaw in his logic. I'm not 100% convinced on him (or anyone else), but if he's scum he's playing an outstanding stealth game. For now, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

* Kloud -- Kloud seems very active in this game, and his posts have been some of the most detailed thus far. Sure, they've gotten into tl;dr territory at times, but once I force myself to digest them, I find myself agreeing with him more. He's the closest thing to a slam-dunk townie I can find thus far.

* Jahudo -- I'm having all sorts of trouble figuring Jah out. That he was the most recent to vote shows he was staying on the fence for a long time, which works in his favor. Oddly, so does his vote on me; this may be faulty logic, but when you have a town player on L-2 and you're scum, it makes more sense to pretend you see the argument against him and push him to L-1. That he didn't indicates he in sincere in his beliefs. It hardly is the smoking gun, but it's worth noting.

* KMD -- I may be biased since KMD has been pulling me along into the world of Mafiascum and the different style, but I'm willing to clear him. In the short time he's been in the game, he has been very active and has called just about everyone out for an opinion. It also helps that he's giving reasons for asking for more, as opposed to just asking.

* Llama -- Something about Llama doesn't sit well with me. I can't put my finger on it, but what others can claim is scum-hunting strikes me as too scatter-shot to be of any use. I'm not going to say he's sure scum at all, but if I survive Day 2 only to turn up dead Night 2, he might be worth a few probes.

* Porochaz -- Did we clear him too fast? X claimed he was scum, and we had a debate as to whether that was possible before lynching X, seeing him flip SK, and putting the whole thing to bed. Much like Jah, it's hard for me to get a read on him, but this time it's more a sense of his short posting. Voting for pacman because of a lack of theme knowledge seems rather... odd.

* DP -- Given that he was V/LA all weekend, and less acting when he was here, I have next to nothing on him. I'll pass.

* Wolfram -- Well, to be fair, he added theme humor early on, and I'm not sure whether that was his idea of a roleclaim or not. If it was, he's definitely town; if it wasn't, it's a great smokescreen. He's been in the background quite a bit in this game, which doesn't strike me as a tell, and he's been one of the people probing for more info when he does speak. So for now, I'm inclined to believe he's town.

So, Pacman, if this is the end for one of us, put your cards on the table next to mine. Who are you? I don't think L-2 is too soon to ask for that. And how much do you know / think you know about the rest of the field?

[Dukes]

My thoughts so far on Pacman and Dukes is that I am more inclinde to believe Pacman as town more then Dukes. Dukes has given me an odd vibe as i stated before. His most recent post asking pacman to claim, more on the basis that Dukes has already claimed and Pacma being at L-2 he should claim as well, to me seems more like a scum trying to findout a persons role before they possibly die, so their team an hopefully make a good NK. Pacman hasn't really done anthing that screams scummy to me. His "BZZT" comment that rubbed Dukes the wrong way seems more playful to me then anything, and to comment on it like it is a warning signal as Dukes did is odd, it is more like Dukes is reaching for anything to point out agaist Pacman to get people to vote him.

1. Well, OF COURSE, I want people to vote him! I think he's scum! That really sounds self-justifying to me.

2. Believe me, if I were scum, Pacman would be an awful NK, because his play has heaped suspicion on himself and that would be the person to keep alive.

3. A lot of what Pacman has done has been very unhelpful at this point, and I can't think of a single instance in which he's really pushed anything beyond me.

4. When I focus on someone, it's desperation, but when he does it it's good playing? No. That's not how it's supposed to work. What he's doing is not playful, it's not helpful, and it's really not getting us anywhere.

5. You want honest thoughts? Here's an honest thought: I'm the new guy in a group of people who all played together in a previous Mafia. Therefore, you're all used to each other and willing to hang back on each other, while everything I've said has been dissected, twisted, picked apart, thrown back in my face, and criticized at a level I haven't seen for the rest of the player

combined

. When I list multiple sentences for each person, it's "that sounds like a bad defense". Someone else gives one line -- half a sentence, if that -- for each person, and you're willing to say "okay, makes sense to me". If this gets me lynched, fine, whatever. But what kind of game is it where I feel like there's a level of xenophobia working against me from the very beginning?

6. In conclusion, bite my shiny metal ass.

[Dukes]

*rolls eyes*

Why didn't I stick with Zorblag from the beginning? Ugh...

Anyway, as I said before, this was very frustrating. Especially since the scummers were very good at what they did (i.e., taking what I said and turning it against me). I need more practice. Thanks everyone.