Mini 695 - Futurama Mafia - Over

[kloud1516]

/confirm

[kloud1516]

Hey everyone, I am back from my v/la, and so I will do a read through and post comments a little later.

[kloud1516]

Okay, so... just to let you guys know, I've been reading a few other games here on MS.n and frankly, it amazes me how long they are. Most online games I've done last under 500 posts. Total. For 20+ players.

Then again, there's a lot of "Follow the Cop" and "Bandwagons" over there... so if my play seems uninspired or erratic at first, I apologize -- I'm just getting used to a slower game.

Not sure how to approach this quote. Sure, I understand completely that, when going from one site to another, some things are going to get lost in translation, but at the same time I can't help but feel that this may be a tactic to explain/justify actions later on. Am I certain that this is the case in this situation? No, of course not, for everyone makes mistakes their first couple games (at least I did), but I thought I should point this out.

Happy Birthday Mod.

Let's see here... since it appears everyone confirmed... hey, a vote on me already? Oh, sure, pick on the new guy!

**

I hate day starts -- a stab in the dark never helps if it can be avoided -- and would prefer a No Lynch here, to be honest. So for now, I'll sit back and wait.

*chugs a beer*

The paragraph I have starred stands out to me, as the later ideas within it are pretty bold. You would prefer a No Lynch without having even gone a page into the game? Secondly, you want to sit back and wait? What exactly do you mean by this, for it seems to be someone dropping an idea in and seeing how others respond to it before proceeding any further. No lynches should not even be an option at this point, as by page one, the game is usually still in the random voting stage, which inevitably leads into serious play based off of certain things in the very beginning of the game that come off as scummy.

In essence, town is usually not 100% sure about anything (which goes doubly in a game modded by Farside ). You say stabs in the dark won't help, but neither would a No lynch, as that gives us little to no information to go on for the next day while it gives scum a kill.

why in the world would you want a no lynch already on day one Dukes?

I never understood starting with a shot in the dark. Shouldn't we give the Cop a chance to find something instead of pulling a name out of a hat that, for all we know,

is

the Cop?

I mean, I'm willing to do a lynch for certain if we come up with ironclad evidence, but for now, screw it. All My Circuits is on.

There is plenty of information that can be acquired from day one. From comments, votes, and other opinions provided in the random voting stage, players begin discussion about who they find to be suspicious. Usually, town can then discern from responses to accusations whom they find to be scummy as well. Then there are bandwagons, which can be very informational depending on the reasoning behind them and the results they produce. All these factors would give a cop, and the rest of the town, a chance to find something of value for not only the day at hand, but for days to follow.
Okay, I am going to have to break this down into several segments, as I am in a hurry right now, but need to get something up in this game to actually contribute. I will start with early material and make my way into the present situation in the game.

I would like to start off by welcoming everyone, and putting my game face on. Here it goes:

Role hinting much?

Ya think?

Fair enough, but why Xtoxm exactly? He posted before the day started, and there are others that have yet to post or even confirm.

He already had a vote. Seemed safe. Anyway, now that I've done enough damage to this popsicle stand,

Unvote.

Not much else going on here... so I'll be back later.

So you voted him just because he seemed to be the safest route? Got it. Wouldn't want to draw attention to yourself, right?

FoS: Dukes

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gorrads in this sexy game, didnt even notice, I did notice Xtoxm was though, hes the SK, hes always the SK. Problem solved.

vote Xtoxm

There's no way that's a coincidence.

I can only assume that Porochaz is a Mafia Day Rolecop, as town definatley wouldn't have info like that.

But I can't win without him dying and when his role is revealed my game would be over, thus I cannot win.

However, I would love for you guys to let me stay in this game and I can play as a vig, and you can lynch me once we've caught the mafia.

Please!!!

I don't want to exit this game early.

And think about it. You'll basically have a confirmed pro-town scum hunter, in a sense of speaking.

Unvote Vote Porochaz

Oh. Wow, that was sudden. When I first read Poro's post, I took it as a joke, but I am not so sure. I don't see any reason for someone to fake claim SK, as it is indeed an anti-town role, so I can only assume at this point that xtoxm's claim is viable. But why not just play it off as Poro joking and killing him at night if you are so sure? This would have avoided your exposure, at least for a little while longer. This confuses me, as this notion along with the tone of Poro's post makes feel that it was merely a jest. At the same time, that is too much of a coincidence, considering that the Mafia Day Rolecop has indeed made its appearance in Minis before.

Porochaz is also a confirmed anti-town role, and a much more dangerous one at that.

Guys, watch out for the ones trying to get me killed. I'm a vig, so the mafia are the ones who really want to get me lynched today, town doesn't.

Don't let them waste this for the town, guys.

No, you are a SK. Exposed or not, that was (and is) your role. Both a SK role and a Mafia Role Cop role are dangerous in my opinion. This being said, I would much rather lynch a possible Role Cop.

I am going to stop here, and will post more of my thoughts on the game thus far when I get back.

[kloud1516]

Lynch someone whos possibly town, and the whole rolecop thing is 100% n the basis of what the antitown player has said. Why?

Yes: xtoxm's assumption that you are a Mafia Role Cop is plausible, but I am not basing my opinions solely off of his statements. I feel that whole situation seems to be just too much of a coincidence, and leads me to believe that you could indeed be a Role Cop. Townie Role Cop? There is always the possibility.

No: The reason I did not vote you is

because

xtoxm is indeed an anti-town role, no matter how he claimed to operate. There was nothing to back his accusations leveled against you other than speculation, and speculation alone does not supply the ample reasoning for placing a vote on someone. My comment about preferring to lynch a Mafia Role Cop over an outed Serial Killer still stands though, but since we have had no way to prove or disprove the accusations against you, I have no case to vote you on.

@LF:

I agree it is very possible, as we are dealing with the almighty Farside-mod. Anything is possible in this realm, so I will not be taking anything at face value.

[kloud1516]

@LF:

I agree it is very possible, as we are dealing with the almighty Farside-mod. Anything is possible in this realm, so I will not be taking anything at face value.

You are taking the most plausable explaination (from your standpoint) though and running with it. If anyone is taking something at face value its you.

If I was taking it at face value, I would have voted for Poro. Me claiming that yes, I feel the Mafia Role Cop role should it be in play would trump an outed SK is not taking anything for face value.

[kloud1516]

@LF:

I agree it is very possible, as we are dealing with the almighty Farside-mod. Anything is possible in this realm, so I will not be taking anything at face value.

You are taking the most plausable explaination (from your standpoint) though and running with it. If anyone is taking something at face value its you.

If I was taking it at face value, I would have voted for Poro. Me claiming that yes, I feel the Mafia Role Cop role should it be in play would trump an outed SK is not taking anything for face value.

So what... if xtoxm flips SK you try and get a Poro lynch D2 for being a mafia rolecop?

No, not necessarily, for xtoxm has already claimed SK and, as such, I am already anticipating him flipping SK. At this point, it is, as acknowledged, pure speculation that Poro is a Mafia Rolecop, and since xtomx has repeatedly said he is a SK, I am not sure how much evidence can be discerned from Poro's accusation being right. He has not exhibited scummy behavior (no one really has, seeing as we have a page seven lynch), and there is always the possibility for there to be a Pro-town Daycop, but this situation will definitely make me follow Poro more closely than before.

[kloud1516]

I personally think it would need more than a minor coincidence and an overreaction by a SK.

This. Its even more plausable then a town rolecop.

And this, as well. I have not yet looked through the links, but will do so shortly. Poro has cited a reference for his earlier comment, which is also a proponent to the situation in my opinion. I am not just going to blindly accuse someone of being scum without reasoning to do so, LF, and speculation alone is not good enough reasoning.

[kloud1516]

...trying to come up with a way that Xtoxm could be a non-scum role.

X wasn't scum, he was third party. He was anti-town, of course, but not scum. My main reason for not voting him was for this reason. We need to find scum and

day 1 ended before we got very far at all on that subject.

QFT. While we are, in fact, down an anti-town player, we still have very little information to go by other than speculation, or other impressions that may have been made Day 1. At this point, if I had to place a vote at this very moment, it would most likely be on Dukes, for reasoning given in 143. I will not, however, as of now, for I think it would be most beneficial to take a step back and actual analyze players and try to create some discussion -- at least more than what was generated yesterday.

I think the right spots to look are towards the people who began labling poro as scum early in the game, and sewing seeds for a lynch of him today.

Agreed. I want to hear more from the people that are considering poro scum based on the mafia day role cop theory or any other current poro scum theory.

Kloud: You mention "coincidence" when talking about poro guessing X's role. How is your argument related and/or unrelated to a WIFOM argument from what poro could have intentionally done or what could have happened to him by chance?

I would like to start by pointing out, as I believe I already have, that I was not making an argument, but simply expressing why I had conflicting opinions in regards to the situation. As I mentioned in post 143, my first impression of the whole situation was that Poro's comment was merely a joke. The tone of his post and the manner in which he presented it appeared to be nothing more than a light jest, and so I really did not think anything of it. When xtoxm then went on to claim that he was indeed a SK, I wasn't sure if my earlier assumption was the actual case. This is where the "coincidence" comes in, as I acknowledged that it was very odd that Poro hit the nail on the head, seeing as how a Mafia Role Cop has indeed been present in past Mini Games.

I do not see my statement of having conflicting opinions to be WIFOM, as I felt it was necessary to analyze both claims. WIFOM, at least in my opinion, is not prevalent to my comment, no case was made to begin with, and nothing within said train of thought, in my opinion, suggests that I was indeed making a case on Poro simply because of xtoxm's Mafia Role Cop accusation. Maybe at a later time, when we have more information to go off of then what we have now, my opinions on this may change. At the moment, however, I am more likely to believe the comment was merely said as a joke, as I have experienced times when xtoxm has blown up on someone and accused them of being scum, even when they weren't (I cannot cite said game though, for it is still in progress).

Kloud made the push a little more blatant then the other players. It may of been the wording of 143, but the part of the post regarding poro sounded like he was starting to move to the lynch citing that it was "too much of a coincidence". When pushed on it he called it speculation and he backed down on the thought.

No, I did not back down. I defended my position against a statement made by you that I felt was flawed. The situation being "too much of a coincidence" is again addressed in 147:

Lynch someone whos possibly town, and the whole rolecop thing is 100% n the basis of what the antitown player has said. Why?

Yes: xtoxm's assumption that you are a Mafia Role Cop is plausible, but I am not basing my opinions solely off of his statements. I feel that whole situation seems to be just too much of a coincidence, and leads me to believe that you could indeed be a Role Cop. Townie Role Cop? There is always the possibility.

This is not me beginning a case on Poro, not in the slightest sense. This is me simply stating that I could see either scenario being plausible. I indeed stated that I felt Poro

could

/i] be a Role Cop, but, as I have said several times now, me "feeling" something is not enough for me to vote them. I never pushed for a Porochaz lynch, I was simply giving my two cents on the situation, citing the coincidence as part of my train of logic for having conflicting thoughts about it.

[kloud1516]

What really gets me, though, and this is legitimate: Llama seems hellbent on implicating Wolf, Kloud, and myself because of an argument that we wanted Poro gone today. Kloud retracted his statement almost immediately, my argument was based on paranoid conspiracy that I even admitted at the time was far-fetched (and which has since been debunked), and Wolf became suspicious just by suggesting the role exists. On top of this, Llama accuses Wolf of not doing much scum-hunting when there was a darned good reason he didn't: we found one!

You sort of summarized why I think you three are scummy.

Kloud retracted the statement when I challenged it,

due to a few events though, he isnt as high as other players. You came up with a far fetched idea that let you call poro town. Wolf started speculating that a player was an anti-town role for game related events. I am pretty sure you can see that this is scummy, more so when he seems to be bringing up that he never thought it was true, but still wanted to publicly speculate about a player being anti-town.

Could you elaborate on how I retracted my statements, please? I have looked at my posts in a chain, and I still feel that I upheld my opinions, whilst defending my position against your accusations (that I still feel are flawed). If you could describe how I backpedaled or shrank away from my statements, that would be a big help, if only when it comes to clarity.

[kloud1516]

I'm getting some town vibes from Llama and kloud. wolf and pacman need to post more about different stuff. Dukes could be scum but I get this kind of gut feeling on

new players not used to the slower pace

either. He's worth looking at more though.

Bingo!

I really do not like when people try to excuse anything that may be considered suspicious by others with the new card. I acknowledge that a change in pace takes time to get acclimated with, but responses like those above are not particular favorites of mine, as the defense based off inexperience then tends to be used to the point of ad nauseam.

Anyway, since it appears my train of thought is finally on a good track, I'll make it official:

FoS: Pacman

What do you mean by "since my train of though appears to be on a good track?"

[kloud1516]

First off, happy birthday, Zorblag.

Secondly:

Beyond Dukes I know we're not going to hear anything from Pacman281292 for the next couple days so I'll wait for him to get back and reply to what people have asked him. LlamaFluff is trying to use the little interaction we had yesterday to deduce something but I'm not sold on the idea that any of the reactions he's focusing on. Well, I suppose I also think that Duke's was suspicious

but I found the reactions of Kloud1516

and Wolframnhart

to be trying to cope with the bizarre Xtoxm play rather than scummy seeming to me.

And what exactly did you find scummy about it? It helps to elaborate, so that players know where your suspicions/case may be coming from. This makes them easier to address, at least in my opinion it does.

If you are referring to me not knowing exactly what to think of the whole "X: I am SK, which means Poro is Mafia Role Cop" situation, then I would like to point you to my posts on page 8 (193 and 194) that address this same topic in detail. I will respond more in-depth once you clarify a little more.

[kloud1516]

kloud1516, I think that you're misreading what I've written. I'm saying that I didn't find your actions to be particularly scummy. I didn't find Wolframnhart's actions to be particularly scummy. I thought the two of you were reacting in a more reasonable way to what Xtoxm was doing.

Okay. The phrasing of the bolded section made me think otherwise. My apologies.

[kloud1516]

1. Because it seemed like people were getting derailed. They were arguing over whether Poro was or wasn't a scum player. Meanwhile, a REAL scum player was sitting there needing to be lynched.

2. And...
3. Because I have no ironclad evidence, I have nothing more than a random suspicion, and every time I suggest something I become more and more suspicious in everyone's minds.

So, as both a townie and as a player, it's in

my

best interest to shut up and let the investigation go the way it's supposed to.

I believe Pacman is the most likely scum at this point due to his "bomb/jester" explanation. But he won't be around for two more days.

So I'm not sure what my next act should be, especially since every other thought I've had seems to turn people against me.

So I'll ask you now: what do you want from me?

1) No. Not at all. If you are indeed town, then you should be taking into consideration what will be most beneficial for town, and not just what is in your own best interest. It is never in the best interest of the town for a player to simply shut up, as we then lose one voice in the conversation. Debate, discussion, and participation from all players is a vital aspect of scoring a town win, and this is what a townie should be working for.

2) Slight Appeal to Emotion?

vote: Dukes

[kloud1516]

"In many ways" was an attempt at a pun. Bah. Ignore it.

And there were enough full votes and FoS's to doom me,

so I fullclaimed. Maybe I did so too soon... but at least you know who I am. And yeah, Bender was a wild card, but he was more anti-hero than villain.

But that's that. I'll ask Wolf and Llama -- do the two of you suspect each other as strongly as it was implied you did a few RL days ago? Why or why not?

There were two votes (at least I believe so) on you, when the needed number of votes to lynch was/is six at this point. FoSes do not put you closer to a lynch in any way, so you were nowhere close to "being doomed." The full claim at L-4 was completely unnecessary, and as others have already pointed out, claiming Bender does not do much to change my suspicions, even if he was more "anti-hero," as you say.

[kloud1516]

KMD!!!

[kloud1516]

Just like (not so) old times. *back to game*

[kloud1516]

There were two votes (at least I believe so) on you, when the needed number of votes to lynch was/is six at this point. FoSes do not put you closer to a lynch in any way, so you were nowhere close to "being doomed." The full claim at L-4 was completely unnecessary, and as others have already pointed out, claiming Bender does not do much to change my suspicions, even if he was more "anti-hero," as you say.

It was at L-3, or more importantly, L/2. I had 2 votes at the top of the page and one added halfway through, meaning I was at the point where if we ran out of time I was a goner. Plus enough FoS's were thrown at me that, if they acted on them, it was lynch time.

Pac, I'm saying you're acting scummy because it bore a very strong resemblance to an OMGUS FoS.

I also wish to point out that Jahudo said my logic made some sense,

and he wanted to hear what you thought of certain issues -- issues you haven't addressed because you'd rather attack the Easy Target who's halfway to the gallows anyhow. Go find his post before you spout off on the target everyone else is looking at -- or re-affirming the bandwagon you tried to start.

Vote: Pacman

And what, Dukes, makes you feel that Jahudo's statement about your logic making sense is authoritative (not meant to insult you Jahudo)? What makes his opinion much more valuable than those of people that find you suspicious? Pointing out that someone agrees with you is fine, but the way you present the fact that Jahudo found your logic to make sense in the post above emits a faint Appeal to Authority vibe (at least to me it does).

[kloud1516]

Kloud, I read your Dukes vote as going after an easy target.

He makes some posts after a couple of votes, and you come in, show a couple of slightly scummy things, and lay down a vote.

It looks like an "ok, people are right. Here's scum. Vote. Ok bye." kind of post.

These accusations are very flawed, in my opinion, and I will elaborate on why:

Okay, so... just to let you guys know, I've been reading a few other games here on MS.n and frankly, it amazes me how long they are. Most online games I've done last under 500 posts. Total. For 20+ players.

Then again, there's a lot of "Follow the Cop" and "Bandwagons" over there... so if my play seems uninspired or erratic at first, I apologize -- I'm just getting used to a slower game.

Not sure how to approach this quote. Sure, I understand completely that, when going from one site to another, some things are going to get lost in translation, but at the same time I can't help but feel that this may be a tactic to explain/justify actions later on. Am I certain that this is the case in this situation? No, of course not, for everyone makes mistakes their first couple games (at least I did), but I thought I should point this out.

Happy Birthday Mod.

Let's see here... since it appears everyone confirmed... hey, a vote on me already? Oh, sure, pick on the new guy!

**

I hate day starts -- a stab in the dark never helps if it can be avoided -- and would prefer a No Lynch here, to be honest. So for now, I'll sit back and wait.

*chugs a beer*

The paragraph I have starred stands out to me, as the later ideas within it are pretty bold. You would prefer a No Lynch without having even gone a page into the game? Secondly, you want to sit back and wait? What exactly do you mean by this, for it seems to be someone dropping an idea in and seeing how others respond to it before proceeding any further. No lynches should not even be an option at this point, as by page one, the game is usually still in the random voting stage, which inevitably leads into serious play based off of certain things in the very beginning of the game that come off as scummy.

In essence, town is usually not 100% sure about anything (which goes doubly in a game modded by Farside ). You say stabs in the dark won't help, but neither would a No lynch, as that gives us little to no information to go on for the next day while it gives scum a kill.

why in the world would you want a no lynch already on day one Dukes?

I never understood starting with a shot in the dark. Shouldn't we give the Cop a chance to find something instead of pulling a name out of a hat that, for all we know,

is

the Cop?

I mean, I'm willing to do a lynch for certain if we come up with ironclad evidence, but for now, screw it. All My Circuits is on.

There is plenty of information that can be acquired from day one. From comments, votes, and other opinions provided in the random voting stage, players begin discussion about who they find to be suspicious. Usually, town can then discern from responses to accusations whom they find to be scummy as well. Then there are bandwagons, which can be very informational depending on the reasoning behind them and the results they produce. All these factors would give a cop, and the rest of the town, a chance to find something of value for not only the day at hand, but for days to follow.
Okay, I am going to have to break this down into several segments, as I am in a hurry right now, but need to get something up in this game to actually contribute. I will start with early material and make my way into the present situation in the game.

I would like to start off by welcoming everyone, and putting my game face on. Here it goes:

Role hinting much?

Ya think?

Fair enough, but why Xtoxm exactly? He posted before the day started, and there are others that have yet to post or even confirm.

He already had a vote. Seemed safe. Anyway, now that I've done enough damage to this popsicle stand,

Unvote.

Not much else going on here... so I'll be back later.

So you voted him just because he seemed to be the safest route? Got it. Wouldn't want to draw attention to yourself, right?

FoS: Dukes

My first post involving content from the thread. The very first one I posted once coming back from v/la. At this point, there were no votes on Dukes, so to say "It looks like an "ok, people are right. Here's scum. Vote. Ok bye." kind of post," is utterly fallacious. Furthermore, I did not drop a vote on him, as clearly shown above. I leveled a FoS, so you saying that I popped into the game after activity, listed some things I found wrong with content he provided from pages 1-6, and then voted him for said content is utterly incorrect.

Yes, the points I addressed in this post were early points that stood out to me in regards to Duke's play, but I did not feel that they were enough to vote him (which is why only a FoS was dropped.)

Then Day 2 came around the corner, and posts such as:

I'm getting some town vibes from Llama and kloud. wolf and pacman need to post more about different stuff. Dukes could be scum but I get this kind of gut feeling on

new players not used to the slower pace

either. He's worth looking at more though.

Bingo!

I really do not like when people try to excuse anything that may be considered suspicious by others with the new card. I acknowledge that a change in pace takes time to get acclimated with, but responses like those above are not particular favorites of mine, as the defense based off inexperience then tends to be used to the point of ad nauseam.

Anyway, since it appears my train of thought is finally on a good track, I'll make it official:

FoS: Pacman

What do you mean by "since my train of though appears to be on a good track?"

In which Dukes seems to jump at the chance to use Jahudo's comment of him most likely simply trying to get acclimated with the slower pace as a means of defending things that others had deemed suspicious by this point. The way in which he responds to Jahudo's post made me go back to the first statement I made in this game:

Not sure how to approach this quote. Sure, I understand completely that, when going from one site to another, some things are going to get lost in translation,

but at the same time I can't help but feel that this may be a tactic to explain/justify actions later on.

Am I certain that this is the case in this situation? No, of course not, for everyone makes mistakes their first couple games (at least I did), but I thought I should point this out.

And then comes:

1. Because it seemed like people were getting derailed. They were arguing over whether Poro was or wasn't a scum player. Meanwhile, a REAL scum player was sitting there needing to be lynched.

2. And...
3. Because I have no ironclad evidence, I have nothing more than a random suspicion, and every time I suggest something I become more and more suspicious in everyone's minds.

So, as both a townie and as a player, it's in

my

best interest to shut up and let the investigation go the way it's supposed to.

I believe Pacman is the most likely scum at this point due to his "bomb/jester" explanation. But he won't be around for two more days.

So I'm not sure what my next act should be, especially since every other thought I've had seems to turn people against me.

So I'll ask you now: what do you want from me?

1) No. Not at all. If you are indeed town, then you should be taking into consideration what will be most beneficial for town, and not just what is in your own best interest. It is never in the best interest of the town for a player to simply shut up, as we then lose one voice in the conversation. Debate, discussion, and participation from all players is a vital aspect of scoring a town win, and this is what a townie should be working for.

2) Slight Appeal to Emotion?

vote: Dukes

Where I

do

indeed drop a vote on him. As shown above, Dukes intended to do what he felt was best for him. In this case, he claimed that he would shut up in order to avoid more suspicion from people. Neither him claiming he wanted to do what was best to advance him further in the game nor his plan to be quieter so that he didn't come off as suspicious anymore do not resemble any pro-town qualities to me. Deliberately being unhelpful by not contributing to discussion (through "shutting up"), and trying to advance one's self instead of trying to work for the town cause are factors that I found and still find scummy.

The appeal to emotion did not help either.

Next comes:

There were two votes (at least I believe so) on you, when the needed number of votes to lynch was/is six at this point. FoSes do not put you closer to a lynch in any way, so you were nowhere close to "being doomed." The full claim at L-4 was completely unnecessary, and as others have already pointed out, claiming Bender does not do much to change my suspicions, even if he was more "anti-hero," as you say.

It was at L-3, or more importantly, L/2. I had 2 votes at the top of the page and one added halfway through, meaning I was at the point where if we ran out of time I was a goner. Plus enough FoS's were thrown at me that, if they acted on them, it was lynch time.

Pac, I'm saying you're acting scummy because it bore a very strong resemblance to an OMGUS FoS.

I also wish to point out that Jahudo said my logic made some sense,

and he wanted to hear what you thought of certain issues -- issues you haven't addressed because you'd rather attack the Easy Target who's halfway to the gallows anyhow. Go find his post before you spout off on the target everyone else is looking at -- or re-affirming the bandwagon you tried to start.

Vote: Pacman

And what, Dukes, makes you feel that Jahudo's statement about your logic making sense is authoritative (not meant to insult you Jahudo)? What makes his opinion much more valuable than those of people that find you suspicious? Pointing out that someone agrees with you is fine, but the way you present the fact that Jahudo found your logic to make sense in the post above emits a faint Appeal to Authority vibe (at least to me it does).

In which Dukes attempts to use Jahudo's earlier statements as a means of verifying/crediting his own opinions.

[kloud1516]

Kloud, I read your Dukes vote as going after an easy target.

He makes some posts after a couple of votes, and you come in, show a couple of slightly scummy things, and lay down a vote.

It looks like an "

ok, people are right

. Here's scum. Vote. Ok bye." kind of post.

I would also like to address this underlined section. As phrased, it implies that I simply dropped a vote based off the cases made by others. This, as can be clearly seen above, is not the case in the slightest sense. My opinions have been, in most senses, dependent of opinions and reasoning provided by other players, so to insinuate that my train of thought was "Okay, people are right in suspecting him, so I will vote for him," is utterly fallacious.

[kloud1516]

Kloud, I was talking Day 2 where you DID put the 3rd vote on an easy target. I see now that you were suspicious of him on Day 1. Still, Dukes looks more like scumbait than scum right now.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but I do not agree with you on this point.

I was about to say that your vote wasn't as much wagoning as I thought because of the Day 1 suspcions, but:

I would also like to address this underlined section. As phrased, it implies that I simply dropped a vote based off the cases made by others. This, as can be clearly seen above, is not the case in the slightest sense.

My opinions have been, in most senses, dependent of opinions and reasoning provided by other players

, so to insinuate that my train of thought was "Okay, people are right in suspecting him, so I will vote for him," is utterly fallacious.

Depended is supposed to be independent there . My opinions were, in most senses, independent of opinions and reasoning provided by other players. When looking at the section I bolded above, the message I was trying to get across becomes clear. The "in most senses," just for clarity, entails me agreeing with certain points made by others. As shown with the posts I provided in 255, it is blatantly evident that my arguments were not relying on/playing off of the arguments of others -- which was the point I was trying to make in 256.

[kloud1516]

kloud, can you please (re)state your position on Poro for me....and your thought on Llama (now)...have they changed for either person since yesterday? why?

Yes, I can.

Thoughts on Poro:

My position/opinion of him yesterday was one of uncertainty, due to feelings I have already expressed. The whole xtoxm situation kicked up a conundrum of conflicting thoughts, but as today has progressed, my earlier weariness has eased somewhat due to his consistent submission of logical, analytical posts. He has questioned several players if I am not mistaken, and voiced his opinion of other discussions, making me believe that he is making an active effort to contribute and look into the actions of all players. At the moment, I am more inclined to say he is town because of said factors, but at this stage one can never completely certain.

Thoughts on LF:

To be honest, I have a fairly neutral vibe on LF. Nothing he has done thus far has drawn my suspicions, and he too has posted content inclusive of almost every player in this game. He has exhibited (in my opinion) traits that make me feel he is more likely aggressive town, for this is a characteristic of his play that I have seen in past games, but at the same time this quality of this play causes me to have reservations about him. I feel he jumped the gun when saying that I was trying to begin forming a case on Poro because of xtoxm's comments, and pushed the notion coming into Day 2. Granted, I feel this situation was more of a misinterpretation of posts, but something about it just doesn't sit well with me.

[kloud1516]

pacman: Of course we didn't know for sure that Xtoxm was telling the truth, but most people were working off the theory that he was SK and deciding whether or not to keep him alive. Why didn't you at least evaluate both sides and see which you'd rather support in the hypothetical case that we did have a claimed SK and jester wasn't a possibility?

I too would like a response to this. Why focus on one possibility (an extreme one at that), as opposed to trying to look at multiple scenarios?

[kloud1516]

While I hate to use a superficial reason on top of all the others I've noted, SHOUTING AT PEOPLE WHO QUESTION YOU DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD.

This. It didn't seem a large enough point and does not make you scummy.

QFT. Being abrasive does not equate to being scummy, but at the same time continuing to do so is not helpful either, as you have pointed out, Dukes. Level-headed responses will help avoid mass frustration, allowing us to not become sidetracked from scumhunting due to emotion, and also makes the game more enjoyable.

Pacman, show us how the case on you is weak if you think it is.

Agreed. You may have already done so, but I do not recall any defenses being that thorough (feel free to show me to posts that say otherwise). You providing a rebuttal would be helpful.

[kloud1516]

In the process of rereading. Will get something up shortly.

[kloud1516]

Okay, I have read over the thread, and have found several things I believe to be noteworthy, which I will elaborate on momentarily. I would like to start off by saying that I am honestly dumbfounded by the fact that Dukes was town, as his posts just screamed scummy to be. This being said, I believe we may be able to learn some things from the mislynch, though I do not know exactly what at this moment. I suggest we proceed through today cautiously and analyze the posts of everyone, looking for possible connections and making known factors of others' posts that seem off, as even the smallest bits of content may serve as an integral part of catching scum today.

Now providing my findings/opinions:

Zorblag~

OK, the game seems to be dragging a bit at this point. Xtoxm doesn't seem as though he's going to be a willing tool for the town if he is a SK (which I still don't fully buy.) At this point I won't have any real issues with him getting lynched at the end of the day.

On the other hand, lynching him right now means that we've

gained very little information and go into the second day giving scum the advantage of initiative

so let's see what we can do to

talk about other things that might lead to useful information down the line.

Hmm, a couple things might be worth drawing attention to. Xtoxm seems to have attempted to self hammer and might be claiming cult now. I suspect everyone caught that but it's been largely ignored.

(Why would cult try to get themselves killed anymore than SK would?)

I do not disagree with the initial premiss posed by Zorblag on Day 1 with the first quoted post. Continuing discussion even after xtoxm's SK claim had been debated or referenced by every player in the game (I believe) would have helped to acquire more information to have at the town's disposal going into Day 2. He advises that we begin looking at others, in order to try to find more evidence and analyze responses from players. I find no problem with these suggestions, as they all would have indeed been beneficial to our cause. This being said, the fact that he then drops the question within the parentheses of the second quote does not sit well with me, as it seems in one breath he is advocating further investigation, while with the other he is posing a WIFOM question that would only derail suggested investigation.

Stating this question would not have upheld, at least in my opinion, his insistence on acquiring more information to use, for there is little that town can discern from debating why a possible cultist would want to get themselves killed. There is a stark contradiction between the ideas within these paragraphs, a difference that I find to be unnerving, as it seems that Zorblag is trying to make himself look more pro-town by suggesting we get more information, but then slips in the last sentence, which would work to do exactly the opposite of what he wanted players to do.

My thoughts on the matter only become stronger when adding in further comments from 161.

I know my jester speculation was a stretch. Here's an even bigger one. Is there any chance Xtoxm has some sort of pathalogical liar post restriction and that he's showing us with actions that he doesn't get a vote?

Perhaps a more plausible explanation would be that convicted felons don't get to vote (at least in "A Head in the Polls".)

In any case, I'm worried that we're still making assumptions that perhaps we shouldn't.

He wants us to gain information, but then employs trains of thought such as these that are simply speculation void of any reasoning (at least that I can see). He acknowledges his jester theory was pushing the limits, but then ventures to state two more suggestions that pull the rubber band of speculation even more taut. Liar PR? Felons voting restriction? Where do these come from? How do such suggestions dovetail the idea of getting more information? From this post, the only outcome I can see from pursuing such paths of thought would be large arguments and discussions based on speculation that would both detract from scumhunting and impede upon any further information.

You finish this post by stating that we are all making assumptions that we shouldn't be. If you are so concerned about jumping to illogical conclusions and debating upon speculation and pure assumption, then why devote this whole post to posing theory void of evidence?

I can't say that I'm thrilled with how this game is going so far. Apparently Xtoxm was the SK he claimed he was. Unless there's some twist involving him later on (and that doesn't seem too likely) I'm not at all convinced just now that he was playing by rule 2.

2) Play to win, but also to have fun. See rule 1.

I take that trying to win to be something the players have all agreed to do

when I'm trying to figure out the cause for their actions. For a one person faction to die that willingly (going so far as to self-hammer) the first day does not count as them playing to win.

In this case he's done even more harm though.

The way he's chosen not to win arbitrarily hurts the town and helps the scum despite the fact that he wasn't aligned to either.

1) How is this relevant to the game? Delving into the psyche/mentality of an already-lynched player does not help when searching for scum at all in my opinion. Granted, it makes you appear to actually be contributing, but such investigation is inadvisable, as what can we as town gain from looking into reasons for his actions when he is no longer able to respond. Following paths to dead ends wont help us hit scum.

2) I believe others have already addressed this: the fact that we have eliminated a SK is just as much a bonus as eliminating scum, as we have gotten rid of a lone player whose purpose was to kill and survive. Are you saying that a non-town aligned killing role being eliminated from the game is not beneficial? SKs are considered scum as well in my book, as they are not town-aligned, so getting rid of the SK helps town. How does lynching the SK help scum?

Of course, when I say he hurt the town and helped the scum I have to be fair here.

We followed his lead and went straight for the quick lynch on day one without discussion of much of anything.

We got minimal posts from several people and now have to try to figure out what's going on without the benefit of interactions we would have gotten on a typical day one.

We did exactly what I warned we were doing (though I didn't make nearly enough of an issue of it so I get blame for this as well.)

1) My response to the first bolded section would be earlier opinions stated within this post, i.e. those addressing post 161 and those just above this quoted section.

2) There is something about this I do not like at all. To me, this statement comes off as somewhat of a "I told you so, now look what we have gotten ourselves into," sort of mentality, which is not helpful at all. Sure, you throw in that you are to blame as well, for you say you didn't press the thought as much as you should have. I agree with you, for you were too busy providing WIFOM and speculation to actually keep to what you are trying to say here. This once again looks like an attempt to appear more pro-town, by making it seem as though you are trying to pick up the pieces of a disastrous Day 1 (I say this, because from your tone this is what I feel you are insinuating) and, while doing so, publicly claim that you should have done more to prevent the problem.

So now, here we are in day 2. We did give initiative to the scum and they used it to take out our doc.

If we're going to pull a town victory out of this we're going to have be more aware as we go forward.

We've got a couple places to start from today (but not nearly as many as we should) and I'll take a look at them this afternoon and see where my suspicions lie but I'm really hoping that we don't continue to play this game like we have so far.

We also took out the SK, which is beneficial to the town cause as well. I agree with the bolded section, for I too have said this myself, but coming from you, based off of reasoning and statements I have already made, I feel that this is just empty encouragement to make yourself look better.

HoS: Zorblag

There are still others I wish to look at more closely, which is why I did not place my vote on you. I want to review the reasonings for suspecting Pacman again, and also plan to look for connections between players in hopes of finding a possible scum pair. If I had to vote now, it would be for you, Zorblag, but Day 3 has only just gotten underway, and I do not want to be hasty with my vote.

[kloud1516]

I posted this after Xtoxm had apparently hammered himself. I waited a while and the day didn't end so I was trying to make sure that we weren't assuming that we were really in twilight when we might not have been. If the day hadn't ended shortly after then there would have to have been some reason it hadn't; I was throwing out a couple guesses.

I did read the post in its entirety, and understand the overall point you were trying to make. This being said, the quoting of farside-mod and trying to figure out whether or not the day was over was not a proponent of my reasoning for finding you suspicious. This is about the only thing about this post that I didn't have a problem with, as the rules did say vote counts and votes would be misleading.

As for questioning why cult would self hammer any more than a SK I was still trying to figure out a way for Xtoxm to be helping his team. I had trouble believing that someone would play as poorly as Xtoxm seems to have so I was still trying to find alternate solutions that might have merit. It seems I was wrong, but my frustration at Xtoxm's play does come up in the next post that you mention.

But posing this question aloud threatens to branch into WIFOM, which contradicts your earlier statement about wanting to gather information, as what viable information can be discerned from discussion dwelling upon WIFOM? I have no problem with someone trying to mull through possible scenarios, as I do it myself, but at least acknowledge that it is simply speculation, for as it is the train of thought seems to be inviting discussion, and discussion about theory in this case would detract from scum hunting.

Furthermore, I believe xtoxm provided reasoning for his actions earlier in Day 1: he was a self-claimed outed SK, meaning he had no chances of winning since he had been exposed. He then tried to get town to keep him around by offering to serve as the town's vig, but when that proposition began to go down the tubes he must have given up.

What, claim as mafia? Riiiight. No you wouldn't.

I've accepted that i've lost. I don't much care for SK as a role anyway, I think it's silly to have one guy on their own against everyone. Like I said I will be playing as a vig from now on.

Yes, I am the good guy.

I cannot win as I am outed but i'd like to continue and play for town. It's also in towns interest to keep me around and try to catch mafia, atleast while there are mislynched anyway.

I cannot win, so keeping me around does absolutely no harm, and has many advantages.

Hopefully people i've played with before like Llama/Kloud will know this.

Yes, this is poor play, but the earlier posts provide reasoning (in my opinion) for his erratic actions. If his preceding content did not answer your questions, then why not ask him his reasons for voting as opposed to providing such statements as those above, which as I have said walk a fine line with WIFOM? This, in addition to the fact that you acknowledge the jester speculation was a stretch, then continue by bringing up another theory out of nowhere (pathological liar PR) is my reasoning for finding you suspicious. You stress the importance of acquiring more information, then provide posts with ideas such as those in 161 that would completely hinder gathering of evidence.

176 was my first post of day 2 and was made as much out of frustration as anything else. I've said since and I'll say it again now that I wasn't trying with that post to indicate that killing the SK was a bad move for the town. Killing the SK was a good thing to do. What was troubling was that we hadn't had enough other good discussion in my opinion. It might not have done us any good but I don't think it could have hurt us. I did look at Dukes some on day one after post 128 but I really didn't do enough to get attention away from where it was narrowly focused. That's why I accept my part of the blame for our lack of scrutiny for most of the players on day one.

Okay, I will take frustration into account, but only to a certain degree, as discussing the mentality of a lynched player still does not contribute to scum hunting or analyzing of Day 1 content. While this may have been posted out of irritation for xtoxm's play, this once again invites discussion that would be unhelpful to town.

You claim that "the way he chose not to win arbitrarily hurts town and helps scum," which to me implies that you felt that the xtoxm lynch was not the best move. If you would have elaborated to explain the lack of information was the negative/harm you were referring to, then my opinion of this would have differed. You didn't though, and your desire for more information is already questionable based on reasonings provided both in this post and in post 362.

I don't know whether any of that will resonate with you or not but that's why I made the posts that I did. I'm glad to hear that you agree that we need to look carefully at everyone today but I think that you're taking 3 of my posts and building a somewhat out of context case from them. I'm all for everyone including myself getting gone over closely; I'd love to hear what you think of other players if you've taken a look at them as well.

I appreciate the response, and my suspicions have slightly (being the key word here) lessened, but my main reasons for finding you to stand out still remain. I would like to know what others think of what I have said thus far, as input from others and discussion will help out the game tremendously, or at least I hope it will.

[kloud1516]

In regards to the popcorning of roles:

While I would not be opposed to doing so if the group consensus is to follow through with it, I would much rather wait until tomorrow, as we will hopefully have more information to work with and thus more evidence to support and/or argue against the said claims. I do not want to give scum information if revealing said information is not of the upmost importance. I am more inclined to believe there are two scum due to the presence of a SK, merely because of balance issues, but if others feel that we could be in a lylo situation right now I will not hesitate to partake in the popcorning of claims.

[kloud1516]

Kloud, did Farside give fakeclaims in the mini Family Guy game?

There were not.

Well, if we think there are 3 mafia in a game with a SK, it makes sense. If we think there are 2 mafia, we should wait until tomorrow. Actually, the information couldn't hurt, right? I mean, maybe the scum get a better idea who to kill,

but if we have several power roles like Family Guy had, it gives us several claimed power roles which may actually be provable, and the scum can't kill us all in one night.

It might be an ok idea, but I'd like to hear from everyone before we start anything like this.

I agree with this, for if you all look at the Family Guy thread (Mini 653 I believe), you will see that the number of claimed power roles substantially assisted with the town win, as many of the claims were provable, thus efforts to weed out possible scum were much easier.

So, after reading up, I keep seeing "we can do it if the group agrees". I think I'm going to come out and say, I'd support a massclaim today.

If we have 3 scum still alive, I don't want to mislynch and find out we lost because we underestimated the Mod.

I have a feeling that not only could Farside balance a game with 3 scum and a SK, but that she would pride herself in doing it, and do it just to show that she can. And even if there are only 2 mafia, what's the worst that happens? When the uninformed majority becomes informed more and more, a gap closes. If the scum have fakeclaims, they will just use them as they are about to be lynched, so it makes no difference. So basically, I propose that we do the dice popcorn claim that (was it DP?) suggested.

This is the main issue I keep debating with myself in regards of whether or not I feel we should popcorn claim now, or wait until tomorrow. As wolf has pointed out, there have been cases of there being SK and three mafia, and I wouldn't toss any idea aside in a game with farside as the mod. At the same time, I feel that it may be too early to out possible power roles. This being said, the earlier notion of claimed (and possibly confirmable) roles being present in the game makes me feel that claiming may in fact be beneficial today.

[kloud1516]

I did read the post in its entirety, and understand the overall point you were trying to make. This being said, the quoting of farside-mod and trying to figure out whether or not the day was over was not a proponent of my reasoning for finding you suspicious. This is about the only thing about this post that I didn't have a problem with, as the rules did say vote counts and votes would be misleading.

This was about post 161 and I still think you're missing the context as a whole. If we weren't in twilight then it would have been good to figure out why and I was trying to move towards that. On the matter of my asking the question about the cult, where you're seeing potential WIFOM I was asking because I've not played any games with cults and was trying to gather information from others that might have which might have helped me to assess the situation. Remember that Xtoxm made his (false it turns out) cult claim after he thought that he had self hammered. If he was wrong and we weren't in twilight yet and there was some way it could help that others knew about we might have been able to adjust our actions.

Here are the points/ideas I can see from your post 161:
>Xtoxm has apparently self hammered
>Xtoxm has claimed cult.

>Why has xtoxm claimed cult?

>Farside-mod said vote counts would be misleading, so are we in twilight, or is it still Day 1?

>Your jester speculation was a stretch.
>

Here is an even bigger stretch:

what about a pathological liar PR, or even a vote restriction on felons?

Let me make this clear: my issue with the post, as I have said already, does not lie with your questioning of whether or not it was twilight or still Day 1. My issue comes with the other context within the post, that you say above would be good to figure out if it we had happened to still be in Day 1. I disagree with you here, which was exactly what I was saying originally, for in an earlier post you are advocating we get as much information as possible, then in this post, you pose questions to which there can be no solid answer that would not lead into either WIFOM or pure speculation. These kinds of questions/paths you feel that would be good to pursue are simply hindrances to scumhunting, which I have said multiple times before now. I bolded the points I found to be scummy above, and enlarged text that I found to be alarming.

The cult question could not be answered by anyone save xtoxm, so posing it as an aside like you did, to me, would be of no value. Sure, he may have answered it, but why not direct the question at him instead of simply leaving it on the table for others to interpret as they will? As is, the question seems to all but invite others to give their input on something we have no information about, thus promoting WIFOM and speculation.

I really didn't look too far into the claim myself, simply because xtoxm has set a precedent in games for making outrageous joke claims regardless of alignment:

What the hell. Honestly. Who in the series loves Bonnie other than Joe? Now this is getting a tad bit confusing as hell.


Well. Unless BG fakeclaimed. But I figured it was one of those things Farside threw in to game being broken by claims etc.

We're millerlovers.

MILLER lovers? Is that a joke? Because I don't remember you saying that before. Also think it's scummy because you never mentioned it.

Yes - It was a joke.

I can't think of any reason why I would be in love with Bonnie, lol.

Either it's there to make me sus of my lover, or she's faking. But even if she's faking. I can't think of anyone that really makes sense. lol.

Here is the link as well. Look at xtoxm individually and it will be post 120/122.

I realize that you may have not know this, and I am not faulting you for it. This being said, my opinions on the question are posted above, and these are the reasons for me not liking the question. This was something that would not be good to figure out unless you had xtoxm to answer it, for reasons already provided.

The enlarged section stood out for the mere fact that I took it as "Yeah, I will admit that the jester thing was a stretch, but guess what guys: I have something that will sound even more outrageous! Here it is: ---" Granted, this may not have been what you meant, and even if it is I am sure you will not admit to it. This is how I perceived it, and followed up with more speculation, the bolded phrase did not and continues to not sit well with me.

Further, if we really were in twilight (which it turns out that we were)

then post 161 wouldn't actually do anything to hinder us as the day was over anyhow.

The only way might have been important for what it was intended to bring up was if the day hadn't ended; if we still were in day one when I made the post then I would have stuck by everything that I brought up as there would have been some voting wackiness that we could have tried to learn about.

I disagree, for if anyone had actually taken the time to look at this post/caught these posts at the beginning of Day 2, discussion could have fallen upon xtoxm's actions and your baseless suspicions which would have gotten us nowhere. As it was, no one did, but the possibility is still there, meaning it could have done harm to town causes. If Day 1 had indeed continued, then this would have promoted WIFOM and theory in ways already described.

I'll still stand by my statement that Xtoxm's poor play was the reason for most of my reactions on day one. I assume that people will not out themselves in a lost role within the first 3 pages of the game.

And I will stand by you when believing that xtoxm's Day 1 play was indeed poor.

In regards to post 176 you say:

You claim that "the way he chose not to win arbitrarily hurts town and helps scum," which to me implies that you felt that the xtoxm lynch was not the best move. If you would have elaborated to explain the lack of information was the negative/harm you were referring to, then my opinion of this would have differed. You didn't though, and your desire for more information is already questionable based on reasonings provided both in this post and in post 362.

I disagree with that assertion. I think that I did elaborate on why I felt that xtoxm had hurt the town. It's in the next paragraph of post 176:

The way he's chosen not to win arbitrarily hurts the town and helps the scum despite the fact that he wasn't aligned to either.

Of course, when I say he hurt the town and helped the scum I have to be fair here. We followed his lead and went straight for the quick lynch on day one without discussion of much of anything. We got minimal posts from several people and now have to try to figure out what's going on without the benefit of interactions we would have gotten on a typical day one. We did exactly what I warned we were doing (though I didn't make nearly enough of an issue of it so I get blame for this as well.)

It's possible that I didn't put things as clearly as I might have but my intention there was to complain about the lack of information gathered on day one as the reason that I wasn't happy (rather than it being the lynch itself that I had an issue with.)

I addressed the post in its entirety earlier on. This ties back to my initial reasoning for finding you suspicions in the first place: you advocated the amassing of as much information as possible, and then posted trains of thoughts that blatantly contradicted/would have countered all attempts to do so. You are not elaborating here, you are simply saying that we made a mistake by not following your earlier warnings, and that we were now without information. As I said the first time commenting on this, I felt like this was simply an empty comment, for I do not take your earlier claims for wanting more information all that seriously (based on reasoning I have repeated several times now).

As a question to everyone, does kloud1516 seem focused on me in particular or is that my misconception just because he has focused on at least me?

I would like to respond: I am looking at others, but the limited amount of time I have right now has been getting in the way of my opportunity to organize my thoughts and get them submitted. I am sure you of all people, since you have been swamped with midterms and grading papers, can identify with this. Analysis and opinions of others are on the way.

[kloud1516]

Remind you both: Xtoxm was a SK not a cult

I am aware of this, Poro.

[kloud1516]

Your issue instead seems to be that I was not giving further reasons that we hadn't gathered information but rather that I was simply repeating my assertion that the lack of information was detrimental despite your belief that I had been acting in a way which stopped us from gather the the information in the past. Is that an accurate assessment of what you were saying?

Yes, your statement above is accurate. The reason I found your posts so alarming was because of the clear contradiction (or what I felt/feel to be a clear contradiction) in your train of thought. One moment, you are advocating for acquiring more information, the next you are submitting stretches in speculation and providing WIFOM arguments. I acknowledge that we have discussed this back and forth for some time now, and as such I feel as though both of our opinions on the issue are blatantly clear at this point. The post from Day 2 ties dovetails my earlier reasoning, as you once again seem to come back to expressing how detrimental it was/how the town would suffer from lynching xtoxm so quickly and not listening to you. This was my point exactly.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel it would be beneficial for the group if everyone posted their opinions on who they find to be scummy (or likely pro-town), in addition to reasoning for their statements, as it has been generating, or appears to now be sparking, discussion in which everyone will be able to take an active part in participating.

Pro-Town Vibe:

Jahudo

- he has consistently provided well-reasoned, and logical posts which tend to encompass all players and the discussions at that moment. He has posed questions to almost everyone, inquiries that, for the most part, have been beneficial in discerning responses or clarifying one's perspective/argument of the situation. I feel that this inclusiveness portrays someone who is actively scumhunting and contributing phenomenally to the progression of the game.

This being said, I can't help but feel that most of Jahudo's posts have been questions directed at other players. While this is not inherently a negative aspect of play, for reasons given above, it seems to me that Jahudo is more of a mediator in discussions than an actual proponent to them at times. Yes, he gives his opinion (this paragraph is not meant to insinuate otherwise), which, as I have acknowledged, are very rational and analytical, but more often then not, at least from what I have seen, Jahudo has questioned on subjects without giving his own opinion on them. This may or may not be an accurate claim, and so if I have made a mistake please tell me otherwise, but when going back over your content, this was the one criticism I had.

Pacman

- His earlier erratic play did not really convey scumminess, at least to me. Yes, there were things that I found to be curious with his play and responses, but with his minimal activity level throughout the duration of the game, I am inclined to believe that this could have been a flustered player trying to make sure he contributed as he attempted to get up to speed. Do I think that pacman could be scum? Yes, just as I believe there is a possibility for Jahudo to be scum, but his recent Hider claim I feel eases many of the weak doubts I had of him.

Neutral Vibe:

Porochaz

- As discussed in an earlier analysis of his play, I claimed to feel that poro was more likely town then scum. My Day 1 opinions of him were conflicted one another for reasons already given, but his consistent posting and active involvement in the game in both Days 1 and 2 made me believe he leaned more to the pro-town side of the spectrum. Based on Day 3, however, he has fallen into neutral territory, for he seems to vanish from conversation, then pop up every so often. The gradual deterioration of involvement in the game makes me feel that I need to watch him more closely so that he doesn't fly under the radar.

Wolf

- His current opinions and contribution are appreciated, since the more voices heard in the discussion of whether or not to massclaim will, hopefully, help us make a majority decision as whether or not to either wait until tomorrow or set something in motion today. I think he and Jahudo have posted the most content analyzing this predicament (correct me if I am wrong). This being said, I must admit that I have not read as closely into Wolf's play as I need to, which is my reasoning for placing him in the neutral territory. I have not made as many observations of his play to be confident in finding him either most likely pro-town, or anti-town at the moment. If I had to base it off of Day 3, I would lean towards him being town, but I need to be more informed before doing so.

DP

- Again, the case of not looking into his actions as intensely as others' comes into play once more. I will be delving into the content provided by both Wolf and DP, but for now they will be in the neutral category.

Anti-Town Vibe:

Zorblag

- for reasons given in the back-and-forth. Your responses and solid position during the discussion have eased my suspicions of you, but I still feel your inconsistent trains of thought and early play are an indication of you being scum. I will agree with others when they say that you display pro-town traits with your careful analyses, but to me the points I have elaborated upon overwhelm this characteristic of your play. Am I saying that you are 100% scum in my book? No, but to me the scumminess in some of your posts stands very prominently.

KMD

- You provide top choices on who you deduce are most likely scum at this point, then admit you don't have much of a case on any of them. This alarms me, not just because you deem me suspect for my case on Dukes (which I feel I refuted), but also due to the fact that this post appears to be an attempt to bypass provided cases on people to make yourself look like you are actually scumhunting. At the same time, your careful consideration of our current situation (whether we are indeed in a lylo or not) is noted. I acknowledge that you could, in fact, be pro-town, but to list players as scummy without any reasoning, and then defend one suspicion after being questioned about it with a faulty case just doesn't sit well with me.

[kloud1516]

I would also like to say that I support the idea of massclaiming today, based on my reasoning from post 388, as well as the case presented by Jahudo in 411.

I do not like the fact that we continue to go back and forth about whether or not we are in a lylo situation. If there is this much uncertainty about it, then I feel it becomes a necessity to claim, if not only to figure out this mess. I think it would be foolish of us to simply hand the game to scum by going along with the idea that we

could

be in a lylo when we can do something about it.

Would you all be in favor of voting on it? Just treat it like a vote on a player, and if there is a majority for on side or the other, that is what we will do for today?

[kloud1516]

Jahudo has questioned on subjects without giving his own opinion on them. This may or may not be an accurate claim, and so if I have made a mistake please tell me otherwise

What about the Dukes and pacman interactions? post 285 and post 327 for example.

Hence the "most of the time" bit at the beginning of that paragraph.

[kloud1516]

Hey everyone, I managed to get temporary internet access. I don't have time for a long post, but I will go ahead and vote:

vote for the massclaim

[kloud1516]

Hello all, I am back from v/la. I will be doing a reread and getting something up shortly.

[kloud1516]

Okay, I have read over the last several pages. First off, welcome back xtoxm. Secondly, I still feel that massclaiming at this point would be best, for I still feel that any possibility that we could be in a lylo situation should not be ignored, and that we as town should take the opportunities we have to ensure that scum do not receive an easy victory.

A couple of things I would like to address:

Well you seemed to be very strongly against the massclaim to me. You seemed pretty sure that there are 2 mafia in this game. Maybe I misread it, but that's the way it looked.

Xtoxm has come out and done the opposite. He seems very sure that there are 3 mafia.

I just thought both sides seemed relatively sure, so I noted the differences. My apologies if you weren't as sure as I thought.

I looked at my posts it seems to me that I did show I felt that strongly. However I did repeatedly say Im playing the odds, but if you watched me play Texas Hold Em last night then you'll understand that Im not always right. I do feel strongly about it. I said I am sure that there is definetly 2 scum. Me making statements like that is a brash thing to do. I seriously doubt is a better way of putting it. It sounds like Im going back slightly and Ill be honest, I am, however I am still firmly in the no massclaim camp, more specifically the "seriously doubting were in lylo" part of the camp.

This does not sit well with me. Playing the odds in this sort of predicament bodes ill for town, especially with you pushing for a no massclaim on the grounds of mere odds. Two players have, at this point, provided instances in which there have been three scum and a SK, and the fact that you admit it could be a possibility, in my opinion, should be enough that, if you are indeed town, you would be willing to claim in order to avoid losing due to a faulty premiss.

This goes likewise for xtoxm, as you claim to be fairly certain that we are in a lylo, but insist that we wait until tomorrow to claim. You are also confident in your convictions that wolf (or his replacement, whoever that may be) is scum, yet from what I have read, you give no reasoning for believing so (correct me if I am wrong). I do not like that you are so willing to lynch someone without justification, for, as you have stated, you believe that we are indeed in a lylo situation, and so a mislynch would cost town the game. The vote on DP was equally unexplained and void of any case whatsoever from what I am reading. Please explain your case for wolf and DP, or point me towards posts that indicate why you find them to be suspect.

[kloud1516]

Its like playing pocket aces against pocket 2's if you want to keep going with the Hold Em similie, its very good odds. Besides Xtoxms game in my view doesnt count and the other game I cant remember... and no, if I think its a possibility then it should just be as simple as that, because if were wrong its very damaging to town as weve gone over numerous times and besides you could, and about the faulty premise as Ive said before - when you decided to caps lock me - say the exact same thing about the opposite way

1) I disagree with you about it being damaging, for reasons I, and others have already stated. If we have a certain number of claims that are provable we can weed out scum. Likewise, we can also gauge from a person's claim whether or not the claim dovetails/explains their actions and play throughout the game. Yes, we expose roles to scum in the process, but we are able to acquire more information that the town could use if we happen to not be in a lylo.

2) When did I caps lock you?

3) No, the two do not equate, for if you are wrong about it not being a lylo and it is and we mislynch, town loses. If I am wrong about it being a lylo and we claim, there is still an opportunity for town to win, plus we have information to go with, be it from claims and even responses to claims. This cannot be said if we chose to lynch and not claim, for if we lose, we lose.

[kloud1516]

1, question, how is that information useful if all our powerroles are dead?

2, pretty sure it was you, earlier on I caps locked you back

3, But then I dont think were in lylo. (deja vu)

Why are we arguing about this again, we should just wait for animorphs opinion and be done.

1) This is assuming we have more than one power role (or another besides the "hider"). Without the SK, there should only be one kill a night, meaning that not all the power roles would be dead.

2) I do not recall doing so, but I could be mistaken

3) Which is the problem in the first place. If we are and mislynch, the game is over. This, as I said before, is far different from if I was wrong about it being a lylo, for we would still have time left in the game, meaning the two are not equal.

[kloud1516]

Why are we arguing about this again, we should just wait for animorphs opinion and be done.

And I am arguing about it because not claiming and mislynching could cost us the game. I don't know about you, but I would rather the town win then the town simply handing scum the game because some players assumed it was unlikely that we could be in lylo.

[kloud1516]

I posted this after Xtoxm had apparently hammered himself. I waited a while and the day didn't end so I was trying to make sure that we weren't assuming that we were really in twilight when we might not have been. If the day hadn't ended shortly after then there would have to have been some reason it hadn't; I was throwing out a couple guesses.

I did read the post in its entirety, and understand the overall point you were trying to make.

This being said, the quoting of farside-mod and trying to figure out whether or not the day was over was not a proponent of my reasoning for finding you suspicious

. This is about the only thing about this post that I didn't have a problem with, as the rules did say vote counts and votes would be misleading.

I'm confused on this, how can someone POSSIBLY find someone suspicious by them quoting the mod and trying to get more info? My thoughts, kloud is scum, trying to lynch Zorblag for a bad reason at this point.

vote:kloud1516

for the moment, still reading.

If you actually read over the discussion in its entirety and in the correct context, you will see that this reasoning for voting me is very flawed. I did

not

find him suspicious for quoting farside. In fact, if you go back and look over the discussion, you will find that I even said that I didn't have a problem with this part of his post, for he was simply trying to figure out whether or not we were in twilight or not. Furthermore, I found him suspicious for advocating to get more information was also repeatedly explained: I agreed that we needed to acquire as much information as possible, but I felt his stressing its importance was not sincere, and merely a means by which he could look more pro-town. I lay out my reasoning for this in the back-and-forth with the quoted sections I provided. I felt that with one hand, he was pushing to get more information, while with the other, he was providing content that strayed into WIFOM and speculation, which would not acquire in initial goal. If you cannot see this from the lengthy discussion we had, then perhaps you need to read back over it and not cherry-pick certain aspects of my case and take them out of context.

My thoughts: actually read the discussion.

[kloud1516]

Responding to prod. Doing a reread.

[kloud1516]

Kloud, little tougher. Been in a game with kloud before (different alt) and I remember I felt he was lurkerish and scummy. But for the life of me I can not remember what game. I thought he was town in the end though. In this game is a completely different kloud. What does that mean? Nothing. Just noting it. In this game he is not short of content and provides his opinion and takes stances. Which I like. He was the first to ask the town to take stances on each other, which I feel could be another point in his favor. Today he is looking good as well, asking the right questions and trying to obtain as much insight as possible.

I am curious to know which game this is, or even your alt so that I may help you too remember. I must admit that yes, I went through a period where I was extremely busy, and activity in my games had to suffer. As of late, my activity level has been in a constant state of flux, but I am trying to keep up. I think the evaluation is fairly accurate, though you may want to reference other games I have been part of if you have any concerns. If there is anything that I could answer for you, just let me know.

Thats the problem isn't it. I feel with pacmans claim we cant lynch Xtoxm today as much as it would be nice. Its to big a risk.

QFT. With Pacman/X being a possible Hider, lynching him could be very damaging should the claim in fact be true. The way that Ani simply dropped the vote with little indication as to why he did so, or even a reference to previous reasoning causes me to find him suspect. This would be the second person (if not more) that he has placed a vote on with the simple basis of "he is scum," and in a situation like the one we are in right now, we cannot afford erratic action that may cause an accidental lynch.

FoS: animporpherv1

[kloud1516]

If I had to vote right now, it would either be for KMD or Ani.

As the game has gone on, I have continued to have a weariness towards KMD, though I really do not have any substantial evidence to provide a case against him. My gut has told me to be cautious this whole game, for one wrong move could be the difference between a town win and a town loss. Consequently, I am now going back and forth over what I should do, as I am more inclined to believe that, despite his flip-flopping when it comes to stances on players, Ani is town. Opportunistic wagoning could, in fact, be in play with his votes, but I just am not sure. Previously, my top suspect was Zorblag, but as this day has gone on, my earlier suspicious have continued to ease, though I am still watching him.

X does not sit well with me for some reason either. It could just be his acknowledgement/statement that he believes we are in a lylo situation, but will wait until tomorrow to claim. This could be our only shot to do so, and with deadline upon us our window of opportunity and our list of options is coming to a close.

vote: KMD

[kloud1516]

Eh . . . I tried. This was my first game having a pro-town power role, and as you all can see, I had no idea what to do. I had pegged Zorblag as a main suspect without night results to go on, and when I got a guilty claim for KMD, that is when I began to push for the massclaim in hopes of at least eliminating one of the scum. I figured that, if there were only two scum, there would just be one left and, should they have (most probably) chosen to kill me, town would have a better chance at hitting them. I should have just claimed xP.

Good game scum! Good game everyone!

[kloud1516]

Kloud, I second the question. Why not out me?

Because I wasn't sure if it was the right time. There could have been three scum (as there ended up being), and so if I had claimed too early I would have been dead, but at the same time I wanted to claim in order to avoid losing. I breadcrumbed several times that I was the cop, one of which was in the post in which I voted you, KMD.

Yeah, EPIC failure on my part.