Mini 695 - Futurama Mafia - Over

[LlamaFluff]

/confirm... was hoping for more then a third reunion of Family Guy though

[LlamaFluff]

Well on our way to having another 40 page D1 in a three week deadline game it seems. Hell I confirm and come back from classes to see it on page 3.

Yes, I am an SK, however I will play as a vig, and I believe Porochaz is some kind of Mafia investigative role.

Is this actually serious? It comes off as a joke in context of the post but seems to be being actively followed up on. I dont understand how it makes poro scum too, since it seemed to be a joke that he called you an SK. If you are an SK though I really think that you shouldnt be around too long, or at least be kept under wraps for your NKs. Anti-town is anti-town. We cant really trust an SK to not deviate from a town plan if it serves in their best intrest (ie creation of prisoners dillema).

I think that wolf jumping as he has with setting up poro for a lynch if xtoxm is a SK is the most scummy thing we have.

Hopefully people i've played with before like Llama/Kloud will know this.

Well considering the only games I have played with you, you 1) self-hammered as an IC and 2) tried to get me lynched for being voteless town.

I want to talk more before we lynch anyone, but I dont think keeping a claimed SK around (for long at least) is a good move. The longer we go without a scum lynch the more of a liability you become as the ammount of mislynches decreases. It makes sense to get rid of you as fast as possible using that logic.

This whole claim really is something I have never seen before. The closest I have encountered is an SK claiming at L-1 on D2. Also you need to realize that using logic, you wont get NKed by mafia, not even roleblocked. With two kills happening a night, we could be at lylo as early as D2 if there are three scum.

There is too much along the lines of claiming in this game already, both character (which is a null tell at best) and powers (which again can be null, not as often though). Dont like that much activity in either of those two categories.

I dont like the claim and would be ok with a lynch of him today if I could get all the little nagging gremlins out of my head. Now regardless of what we do, quicklynch should not be occuring. It basically gives scum a free kill, and gets rid of a threat to them (town as well) in the process.

Anyways, this is a first in my about 15 games to see a SK claim page 2.

vote wolf

I dont like the setting up lynches with saying "poro must be scum rolecop". While some roles are inherantly town, I have never seen a role (apart from GF and traitor) that can be exclusively a scum role. I have seen town RBers, I can understand a town rolecop in this setup. That is something I would actually give town too as a mod since I dont like conventional investigative roles.

Lets not forget last farside game I was a random JOAT who had no vote initally, so odd roles are not out of the question in the leastbit. Also how would poro of gotten a result already? We havent had a night cycle yet.

[LlamaFluff]

Honestly i don't like having an SK around, even if he does want to sick around and play as a vig. I thought Poro was just messing around calling you an SK, and you freaked about it. Could Poro be a day cop for mafia? maybe. But I would rather get rid of the known anti-town role.

unvote, vote Xtoxm

@llama
Where in hat post (or any of mine) did i say Poro should be our lynch tomorrow? I said

maybe

bu as of now I am no convinced. I do believe that Xtoxm is our best lynch because there is no guarantee that he will target scum, and if we did something like a town vote for who he should use his ability on, there is no guarantee it won't be scum driven. I would much rather lynch the known anti-town role as i have said to lessen the NK's. Unless there is a vig role out there or a cult or whatever role can kill off another person, by lynching Xtoxm we only have to deal with one NK and not two or more (depending on set up). By all means i do think we should discuss more so we don't speed lynch to Day 2 and have no other info to go on, but my vote stays on Xtoxm.

I am not saying that you explicitly said that, I dont think anyone is foolish enough to come out that blatantly with a comment like that. That post though heavily suggests that you think that poro has information that xtoxm is an SK. You go on to speculate that this information would likely make poro a mafia day-cop.

Let look at a few reasons why this is wrong. 1) What benifits come from mafia-poro claiming? Wouldnt mafia not want to claim they are a role cop? 2) Why do you assume its a scum role? In this setup I can see it being a town one.

I think poro either made a joke that outed an SK or is a town role.

@Poro - farside is an odd mod for sure. Last game town was - watcher, my JOAT, bodyguard, random inventor, lover(with scum). Given what has happened so far I dont doubt what either of you are claiming to know, and it will only get more confusing I am sure.

[LlamaFluff]

I dont like the setting up lynches with saying "poro must be scum rolecop".

Sounded to me like you were trying to say i explicitly said that, i must have read it wrong.

You sure hinted at it pretty heavily. Why would day rolecop scum poro claim that xtoxm is an SK anyways?

[LlamaFluff]

Have we considered the idea that Poro is bussing Xtoxm?

This doesnt work as SK =/= mafia. I still am confused a bit as to what is happening here, but I know what is going on enough to understand that all the suspicion that is getting built up against Poro really doesnt make much sense. The people who are calling Poro scum rolecop are more likely to be scum then Poro in my book.

This is a theme game. It can have odd roles. Dont be so quick to condem.

I still dont think anyone has presented a good answer to the question - "Why did as Poro scum rolecop out xtoxm?" I have heard "townie points" but still, it doesnt make sense.

FoS Dukes

I dont think xtoxm should claim character since he really doesnt need to, character claim adds speculation. What matters (and what we should judge on) is the role, which is SK.

[LlamaFluff]

Personally, I think the SK claim is BS, but I'm willing to give him a shot.

I have had this thought too given his comment about me understanding why he claimed. However fakeclaiming SK is pretty gutsy, and I dont see it being particuarly useful for scum.

I still think that looking at the people who have made some movements to lynch poro tomorrow even when we do not have xtoxms role completely confirmed (wolf and dukes) is the better move today. There can be some stuff out there that is able to deal with an SK tonight. It just seems like the people who are moving towards a D2 lynch of poro on speculation are the most likely to be scum to me.

[LlamaFluff]

Hmph. It's got benefit to scum, you just have to think about it. The risks aren't worth it in my opinion, but this is Xtoxm.

I dont really see it being a benefit. There will be something that outs him as not being an SK pretty fast if he really isnt, from there he just gets lynched. The risks arent even close to being worth it, and the way he reacted to poro bringing up him being an SK doesnt feel like scum to me.

Zorb is right about poro. There is no good reason to be suspecting poro right now. Can you explain the FoS on Dukes a little more though? It seems that he is being suspected for the same reason that you are suspecting wolf and poro, even wolf more as you call him wagony but not Dukes.

[LlamaFluff]

Is that clearer?

yeah, skimming and posting during programming class is bound to result in some errors

[LlamaFluff]

Why hasn't the Mafia Rolecop been lynched yet?

I really dont think Poro is scum rolecop. I still want a little more out of D1 then a page 5 SK lynch since it gives scum a free kill and little to go on D2.

[LlamaFluff]

I don't think a single Futurama character could be a jester except Zoidberg, and he makes more sense as a doc.

This is the exact reason I dont like name claims. It ends up with a hell of a lot of speculation that has just as good of chance as hurting us then helping us figure stuff out. A basic thought process with Zoidberg could go "well probably a doctor, but he doesnt know stuff... maybe a quack? Maybe even a weak doctor since zoidberg is so odd..." This just goes into an infinate loop of speculation.

@Jaduho - The two people I think who have been moving towards a Poro lynch have been wolf and dukes.

Wolf with speculation of Poro being a mafia rolecop in this post

Could Poro be a day cop for mafia? maybe. But I would rather get rid of the known anti-town role.

and Dukes with

Have we considered the idea that Poro is bussing Xtoxm? His rationale for saying Xtoxm is SK is that "he's always SK". Xtoxm then says, "Dammit, I hate when you're right, daycop and therefore scum." Ever since, the two have been arguing back and forth over this. The idea is that Xtoxm gets lynched Day 1 and turns up, not SK, but scum anyway. Now we all pat Poro on the back and Follow the Cop straight to Losertown. Or, perhaps, Xtoxm is the Mafia Don with "Last to Go Protection"; then we've wasted our lynch. I'm not which, if either, is the likely outcome, but the players doth protest a tad too much for my liking.

While wolf is a little more blatant with the speculation which could easily lead to a D2 vote of Poro based on the rational that if xotxm flips SK Poro must be scum power, I think Dukes isnt quite as bad. This is because its pretty faulty logic that he is drawing the conclusion from.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote, vote xtoxm

which makes it L-1.

I wouldnt be surprised if there is one, most likely two scum in wolf/dukes/kloud who are all fairly set on listing reasons that we should be lynching poro tomorrow based on speculation of what his role and alignment that comes from his role is. I could completely see poro being a town rolecop given the setup of this game.

[LlamaFluff]

@LF:

I agree it is very possible, as we are dealing with the almighty Farside-mod. Anything is possible in this realm, so I will not be taking anything at face value.

You are taking the most plausable explaination (from your standpoint) though and running with it. If anyone is taking something at face value its you.

[LlamaFluff]

I personally think it would need more than a minor coincidence and an overreaction by a SK.

This. Its even more plausable then a town rolecop.

[LlamaFluff]

@LF:

I agree it is very possible, as we are dealing with the almighty Farside-mod. Anything is possible in this realm, so I will not be taking anything at face value.

You are taking the most plausable explaination (from your standpoint) though and running with it. If anyone is taking something at face value its you.

If I was taking it at face value, I would have voted for Poro. Me claiming that yes, I feel the Mafia Role Cop role should it be in play would trump an outed SK is not taking anything for face value.

So what... if xtoxm flips SK you try and get a Poro lynch D2 for being a mafia rolecop?

[LlamaFluff]

Perhaps a more plausible explanation would be that convicted felons don't get to vote (at least in "A Head in the Polls".)

This actually sounds plausable. In family guy mafia I was voteless to start the game and a night action of mine turned another player into a double voter.

@Kloud - I still dont like the fact that you are leaning Poro scum for having outed an SK on what I STILL think was a joke. If poro is a rolecop, I think he is town. It makes sense if you think about the past game even. Remember the tracker/watcher scum? I dont think that there are any universal scum roles outside of GF, traitor types and framer. I have seen (and experianced) town RBers, I could easily see a town rolecop if the results could be ambiguous. Almost every role can be forced to fit both alignments. Starting a case on speculation of a role is scummy to me.

[LlamaFluff]

Yeah that a weak vote. I think the right spots to look are towards the people who began labling poro as scum early in the game, and sewing seeds for a lynch of him today. If Poro is a rolecop (which I doubt he is) its more then likely town aligned.

I need to look over wolf, dukes and kloud before making a choice

[LlamaFluff]

Llama: Explain how you think Wolf, Dukes, and kloud could have been suggesting a poro 2 lynch. Key word lynch. Was there anything visibly suggestive?

Wolf suggested that poro may of been a rolecop in a way that it seemed like he was more putting out the idea for people to feed off, which I view as pretty bad and hits a personal scumtell of mine which is "presenting information for others to interpret".

Dukes made the bussing argument, but I think that was more bad logic then anything else. His opening post today seems to follow the same type of reasoning which I have a hard time following or seeing as highly credible.

Kloud made the push a little more blatant then the other players. It may of been the wording of 143, but the part of the post regarding poro sounded like he was starting to move to the lynch citing that it was "too much of a coincidence". When pushed on it he called it speculation and he backed down on the thought.

Also Llama, why do you say poro could be town role cop?

Not something I am answering directly, given what I have picked up on from posts though its very likely to see a town rolecop.

For the record, I don't think day 1 had any indication that poro was any kind of investigative role.

I agree here. I think the order for poro is something like vanilla, mafia, town rolecop, scum rolecop.

[LlamaFluff]

I do think that Poro was messing around with Xtoxm, and when i said maybe he could be a mafia role cop i meant that, maybe he could be, but i didn't find it that likely to vote him for it, just keep an eye on him is all and i see nothing wrong with that. I still don't get how i am being accused of setting Poro up for a lynch today, all i said was maybe he was a mafia role cop, he could very well be a town day cop, but if he was why would he out Xtoxm so quickly?

If anything what he said was in jest and Xtoxm freaked out

.

Then why bring up the possibility even? The fact that you are seeming to go with a "oh I didnt think he was the rolecop really" play now, mixed with a rolename hint (which is a big no to me) gets a

vote wolf

for now.

You also have not really done any scumhunting this game, the most you have done is argueably that poro is a scum rolecop, which you now are denying.

Also discussing breadcrumbs is NOT good. If we start pointing out ones from dead players, we might expose ones that still need to be hidden.

[LlamaFluff]

What really gets me, though, and this is legitimate: Llama seems hellbent on implicating Wolf, Kloud, and myself because of an argument that we wanted Poro gone today. Kloud retracted his statement almost immediately, my argument was based on paranoid conspiracy that I even admitted at the time was far-fetched (and which has since been debunked), and Wolf became suspicious just by suggesting the role exists. On top of this, Llama accuses Wolf of not doing much scum-hunting when there was a darned good reason he didn't: we found one!

You sort of summarized why I think you three are scummy. Kloud retracted the statement when I challenged it, due to a few events though, he isnt as high as other players. You came up with a far fetched idea that let you call poro town. Wolf started speculating that a player was an anti-town role for game related events. I am pretty sure you can see that this is scummy, more so when he seems to be bringing up that he never thought it was true, but still wanted to publicly speculate about a player being anti-town.

Also there was no reason we could not scumhunt, I know I did. Everyone who voted for xtoxm voted because they thought he was an SK. An SK is not a member of the mafia. Given that we ended up ending the day as fast as we did left us with nothing but a dead doctor to go on today. Nothing excpet for the discussion that I am bringing up due to my actions and actions of others day one, ie scumhunting.

Wolf's right: Llama seems to be getting tunnel vision here, and I'd kinda like to know why.

Its not tunnel vision. I have what I see as legitimate information against multiple people, and want a lynch of one of them. I have some reasons to move Kloud to a backburner temporarily, and I keep going back and forth on you given that the ideas that you suggest are along the same line as the one about bussing. Wolf given his actions yesterday and today top my list, so my vote is there. If someone can present a better case, or I happen apon something I think is scummier, I will unvote. This is a good spot to start the day though I think.

Have i pushed for a poro lynch today that you assumed i was setting up yesterday? Have you looked hard at anyone else? And if you have what is your opinion on everyone?

No, but I dont think its something you would tempt today given my actions either way. You still havent pushed anyone though apart from the slight OMGUS on me.
Yes I reread the game during the night, you are still the scummiest to me.
Seriously... well ok.
scummy - wolf, dukes, kloud
gut scummy - jahudo, pacman
slightly town - everyone else

[LlamaFluff]

What really gets me, though, and this is legitimate: Llama seems hellbent on implicating Wolf, Kloud, and myself because of an argument that we wanted Poro gone today. Kloud retracted his statement almost immediately, my argument was based on paranoid conspiracy that I even admitted at the time was far-fetched (and which has since been debunked), and Wolf became suspicious just by suggesting the role exists. On top of this, Llama accuses Wolf of not doing much scum-hunting when there was a darned good reason he didn't: we found one!

You sort of summarized why I think you three are scummy.

Kloud retracted the statement when I challenged it,

due to a few events though, he isnt as high as other players. You came up with a far fetched idea that let you call poro town. Wolf started speculating that a player was an anti-town role for game related events. I am pretty sure you can see that this is scummy, more so when he seems to be bringing up that he never thought it was true, but still wanted to publicly speculate about a player being anti-town.

Could you elaborate on how I retracted my statements, please? I have looked at my posts in a chain, and I still feel that I upheld my opinions, whilst defending my position against your accusations (that I still feel are flawed). If you could describe how I backpedaled or shrank away from my statements, that would be a big help, if only when it comes to clarity.

I concede this point a little. You started with the speculation of poro being a rolecop which I took as calling him a rolecop. I missed that you stated "if I thought he was I would of voted him" in the intial post and thought that appeared once the speculation was mentioned. Despite the timelines I still think speculating about an anti-town role is pretty scummy given the context of the day, and automatically think the people who publicly brought up that it may exist, let alone is poro, are scummy to me. Like I said though, I have reasons to put wolf and dukes ahead of you in scumminess for now.

[LlamaFluff]

First off... why did you fullclaim? Seriously you have what, two votes and two FoSs?

Also why are your top suspects lurkers, who one was on V/LA for most of the first day, and the second one posted that he is on V/LA right now?

[LlamaFluff]

(Slurp)where did GW has that?...if so, why did the mod prod him and update us on that? Also, I have played(ing) with GW several times...I am not pulling this meta out of my ass...dont believe me, check for yourself.

One of the early votecounts mentioned GW being V/LA and GWs only post brought up him comming out of an absence.

[LlamaFluff]

So, I decided to not believe the claim, and

I tried to find out what did he try to do with that.

I failed, and he was indeed a SK.

Where did you try and do this? You suggested it at one point but you never actually made any attempts that I saw.

@wolf - Do you think poro is at all suspicious?

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

I need to reread this game as there have been a few things nagging at the back of my mind.

[LlamaFluff]

Reread are always good, they make you realize the really obvious stuff that you missed the first go around. I am going to go ahead and

unvote, vote pacman

.

I still hold wolf as scummy, and there are many worse lynches that we can do then him today, but pacman comes off as much scummier after my read of the game.

In pacmans opening post he makes a joke vote. While in most cases there is nothing wrong with something like this, in this situation it is scummy. Shortly before this opening post, xtoxm claimed SK. I have a massive problem with you not even mentioning this, let alone not casting a vote, laying a FoS, or even commenting on who you believed. Random phase had just broken, so trying to revert to it is scummy.

When attention Is called to this, he FoSed Poro for seemingly unrelated reasons, and just stated he was confused, thinking that this was a joke instead of anything else. If it was a joke why the need to FoS poro, or even fail to mention it until prompted?

Calls the FoS on poro for doing something “really weird” which never got elaborated on. Still little mention of the exchange between the two players at this point.

Now he jumps to the xtoxm = jester conclusion. While I guess this finally gives some input to the conflict that is occurring, it really doesn’t add anything. He spends more of the time at the end of D1 mocking xtoxm instead of working on any theories, or even responding the ideas that I was creating.

Today we started off with the “damn” post which is a weak tell, but it still sets me off a bit when there is a comment of how the night panned out without any real backing to it, such as claiming a kill as from a vig, or protecting (or more in this case RBing) a kill.

Most of the case that pacman uses against Dukes is weak at best (which is ironic since that is the reasoning he voted Dukes), and OMGUS at worst (which it is more to me). The vote is also made for “strawmanning” which I really don’t think occurred in this case. I am bad with the word, but have never seen it used on the first post a player makes in a game, even more so a joke post.

Later pacman goes on to say that his FoS on Poro was due to the fact that he did not understand his post against xtoxm early on, the one that he thought was a breadcrumb. This doesn’t hold up with his explaination of people later, in which he lists me, DP and kloud as “don’t understand” and no read on kmd and wolf (wolf is interesting here since I had pressed him already at this point). Using similar logic he should of FoSed us all at some point if he is confused.

So I feel that pac is using some very weak reasoning to be voting for Dukes, that stems mostly from an OMGUS origin. When you add on the fact that he has avoided most of the topics of conversation for the day, both the poro/xtoxm exchange for the early stages, and my attack on the players who I believe acted subpar and tried to set up D2 lynch before D1 completed.

Also I know this is going to get asked so I will say it now. I still consider wolf a decent lynch for today. At this point though pacman is looking like a better lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

First part: I didn't pay attention to Xtoxm's claim because I DIDN'T BELIEVE IT. When attention turned to him, I still thought that he would be rather a vi (no offense) or a jester or a mafiate making a really weird gambit.

There is a difference in not believing something and not commenting on something. When something significant happens in one of the early post of the games and you decide to random vote after it, and not even comment on it untill someone asked you too, that is scummy as you are ignoring the main topic of converstation.

Second part: My FoS on Poro was half a joke, half a very weird thought.

Again, why a joke? We were out of the random stage as far as I was concerned after xotxm claimed SK. Also wierd thought? You call it metagaming, breadcrumb or joke in this post. Which means you FoSed him due to meta reasons, since I see no reason to FoS for breadcrumbing and you established it was a joke and something else.

Third part: Read the post of the FoS. "That is called a joke, as you said from your own post".

So its just a joke and not mixed with a wierd thought?

Fifth part: Does not compute... *explodes*

It is considered a weak tell to comment on the outcome of a night. The breadcrumb comment here is funny though.

Please explain why do you think my case on Dukes is OMGUS on the worst case.

There are some decent reasons to vote Dukes as he has dropped some tells, but the fact that you are using mostly reasons that he voted you while ignoring other reasons makes me think you are using OMGUS. My comment there was saying you are using weak reasoning to base a case off, or OMGUS. A weak case is still a case (best), OMGUS is just bad (worst).

You didn't understand what I meant on wolf; I meant that I had the same on him than on you, i.e, I didn't understand well in him... maybe due to stupidness (from me)?
The part on Poro looks like a misunderstanding from me; Xtoxm did really confuse me... ouch...

I think this may of been a mutual misunderstanding. It seemed like you later said part of the reason you FoSed Poro was that he confused you. Is that true?

I didn't get the last part of that paragraph. what did you try to say?
Final part: Holy jamaican limbo stick! What did you mean with that?! I didn't pay many attention to Poro/Xtoxm because that got me really insane...

Was more of a tl;dr of why I am voting you. I think the case you have going against Dukes is pretty weak, and it seems to be at least part based on OMGUS. The fact that you manage to distance yourself from topics of conversation such as the early parts of the xtoxm/poro debate and what I had to say about wolf/duke/kloud D1 are scummy to me since you dont have to pick sides in the arguement.

[LlamaFluff]

Explain. My discussion on you was just because your first posts looked weird to me by some weirder reason (but now when I think on it, it looks like Xtoxm screwed me...). Why do you think that my deffense on llama is bad and voteworthy?

What do you mean Xtoxm screwed you? Xtoxm never talked about you at all. I don't see any way for you to argue that the suspicion about you now is Xtoxm's fault? Do you mean that your reaction to Xtoxm's play has put you in a more precarious situation? How is that his fault more than yours?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

His posts confused me, and made me get a little overeager on Poro. Xtoxm's post confused me, and made me misinterprete Porochaz...

Its things like this that still are making me comfortable with my vote. When pacman seems to be half resigned to being the lynch for the day, and instead of really providing a solid defense, or better alternatives to his lynch, is just using slight AtE and saying that xtoxm is the main reason he is now getting lynched.

[LlamaFluff]

In pacmans opening post he makes a joke vote. While in most cases there is nothing wrong with something like this, in this situation it is scummy. Shortly before this opening post, xtoxm claimed SK. I have a massive problem with you not even mentioning this, let alone not casting a vote, laying a FoS, or even commenting on who you believed. Random phase had just broken, so trying to revert to it is scummy.

I disagree with the thought process here. Pacman is scummy for not acknowledging X's claim? Why? How would mafia benefit by not mentioning this? Matter of fact, that would have been a great time to jump on a wagon with little to no heat. Now Llama does provide several reasons for his Pac vote (284), but this seems like a weak reason. Would you be saying that Pac was being pragmatic (and scummy) if he had acknowledged and voted X….this reason is feeling like tunnel vision, but maybe not.

I think that anyone ignoring a major development in the game, especially one that occured in the early stages of the game and effectively removed it from the random stage to be a scummy action. When an event is a roleclaim of an anti-town role, I dont see how you would not comment on it. The fact that xtoxm basically OMGUSed Poro by calling him scum rolecop (which he almost 100% isnt), made the ignorance of this event more interesting then normal to me.

This time by not paying attention to the argument that was brewing, he does not have to take a stance either way on if they are just joking around, or if they are being serious. By not having to take a stance on them being serious, he is able to see what way the town sways before deciding to come in with an opinion one way or the other. He did not take a stance untill post 108, which allowed multiple pages of discussion and a concensus was already being reached.

So it may just be my playstyle, but I consider the ignorance of the claim scummy.

[LlamaFluff]

*sigh*

N1 I blocked koud (my bad)
N2 I was blocking zorblag since he was pretty likely scum, then changed to jahudo.

apparently i got killed by zorblag too so that messed things up quite a bit, my bad there.

Killing the claimed hider was just wrong though. Especially if you werent going to massclaim the same day. I dont know how that was managed, same with somehow not getting zor lynched D3

[LlamaFluff]

Also interesting is that this was the first game I lost as town that I didnt replace into. Farside seems to like her swingy JOATs

[LlamaFluff]

Oh and shameless plug. Be on the look out for my next mini game.
Drawn Together Mafia.

/in