Mini 695 - Futurama Mafia - Over

[Jahudo]

/confirm

[Jahudo]

Wow this game blew up fast.

I don't see how Poro's claim of Xtoxm as SK in post 33 is anything more than a random vote comment. But I also don't see how it caused Xtoxm to react with a self-claim like he did in post 34. I've only seen Xtoxm the mod, not the player, so I don't know how he plays.
Xtoxm: Was it all because you thought he had seriously claimed? Is it possible you just don't like being SK?

Since we have 3 weeks, we don't have to decide what to do about this right now. If a SK can be controlled at night, and we have scenarios where Player A or Player B must be scum, etc, then it's not always a bad thing to keep them around a few days.

Wolf's vote could be a normal reaction under the circumstances of such an odd move, so I don't find it that bad.
Group: Should Xtoxm officially claim now, with like character and stuff?

About the Town Day Role Cop possibility, outguessing the mod is bad news bears. But as long as there's balancing I don't see why it can't be made into a role.

Dukes: I suggest you look at the mafiawiki, there's a link at the top of the page. They've got a ton of unusual roles there.

I don't think its bussing between Poro and Xtoxm, but I also don't have reason to believe Poro is cop from what has so far happened. I guess it's always a possibility to keep in mind.

Vote: kloud1516

because he was a polygamist in my last game, so he's always a polygamist [/this is a joke]

[Jahudo]

No. And I believe i've played you twice as scum and me town, and town won in both, and I was part of lylo in both.

Well, there's a red herring right there. Avowed SK + faulty logic = better off without him.

True, he's not town or scum this time but he says he'll only night kill to help town. Of course he can end up killing town we might see as scummy, so is it worth the risk of letting him kill at all? Can we trust him if this is the best way to go, that is no night killing unconfirmed players?

[Jahudo]

Gorrad and Jahudo seem open to using the SK role for a while if we can come up with a way to do it which seems safe.

My exact feelings right now are that we keep the SK alive because he's an "in the bag" positive lynch to use anytime but lylo. If situations arise where we have 2 scummy players at the end of the day, we can decide then if it's worth it to use Xtoxm's night kill. But we should be careful that his kills won't increase our chances of lylo soon.

It just seems like the people who are moving towards a D2 lynch of poro on speculation are the most likely to be scum to me.

Who do you see as wanting a D2 poro lynch? Which posts?

Gorrad and Zorblag are in favor of a Xtoxm official claim.
LlamaFluff is against it.
I am in favor but am still considering if there are benefits to him revealing at the end of the day or a later day. Something like that.
Does anyone else have a stance on this?

[Jahudo]

Why hasn't the Mafia Rolecop been lynched yet?

I really dont think Poro is scum rolecop. I still want a little more out of D1 then a page 5 SK lynch since it gives scum a free kill and little to go on D2.

Llama can you answer my post 105 question to you? I want to know who you see as wanting a day 2 poro lynch. This is related to why poro might or might not be scum based on his actions so far.

That looks like:
a) a stupid Jester
b) a insane townie, or a weird role
c) a insane scum

Does this mean you think he can't be SK?

Why hasn't the Mafia Rolecop been lynched yet?

How much do you want to be lynched today? Instead of repeating this claim, please explain why 1) His initial random vote on you was not random or a joke and 2) Why you claimed instead of lying or playing it off as a random vote / joke?

[Jahudo]

I only said that because i#m not trying to keep myself alive.

Ugh.

There's no way anyone making a Futurama Mafia would ever not include this character in it...
Introduce you to my "evil" twin? Geez.

This is more like bread loafs now.

This is the exact reason I dont like name claims. It ends up with a hell of a lot of speculation that has just as good of chance as hurting us then helping us figure stuff out.

Okay, but what about the main characters?

Has anyone seen theme games where the traditional hero character was a scum role and/or the traditional villain character was a town role?

[Jahudo]

...trying to come up with a way that Xtoxm could be a non-scum role.

X wasn't scum, he was third party. He was anti-town, of course, but not scum. My main reason for not voting him was for this reason. We need to find scum and day 1 ended before we got very far at all on that subject.

I think the right spots to look are towards the people who began labling poro as scum early in the game, and sewing seeds for a lynch of him today.

Agreed. I want to hear more from the people that are considering poro scum based on the mafia day role cop theory or any other current poro scum theory.

Wolf: Do you still think that poro was messing around with X? When you say that poro could "maybe" be a mafia role cop, are you saying that anyone in this game could be mafia role cop or poro specifically could be mafia role cop?

Dukes: Now that we know poro wasn't bussing X (since X was third party), do you see any change in your ranking of possibilities for what poro could be? The conspiracy theory is out but how would you approach looking at a player day 2 who could be town role cop, scum role cop, or other?

Kloud: You mention "coincidence" when talking about poro guessing X's role. How is your argument related and/or unrelated to a WIFOM argument from what poro could have intentionally done or what could have happened to him by chance?

Llama: Explain how you think Wolf, Dukes, and kloud could have been suggesting a poro 2 lynch. Key word lynch. Was there anything visibly suggestive?

Group: How do you read Llama's suggestion on people leading a poro lynch? Do you think he is exaggerating how serious they were in their suspicions?

Also Llama, why do you say poro could be town role cop?

For the record, I don't think day 1 had any indication that poro was any kind of investigative role.

[Jahudo]

I think was totally random and was done more for Gorrads seniority than anything else.

Gorrads was talking about Zoidberg being a doc more likely than a jester, and if he was a quack or a sane doc so I guess Gorrads was breadcrumbing a little bit. I didn't catch this day 1 and don't know if anyone could have from what Gorrads wrote. Maybe the kill was for his seniority, but we shouldn't rule this out.

Group: Did anyone read it as a possible breadcrumb? Do you think anyone could have understood what it meant?

[Jahudo]

I'm getting some town vibes from Llama and kloud. wolf and pacman need to post more about different stuff. Dukes could be scum but I get this kind of gut feeling on new players not used to the slower pace either. He's worth looking at more though.

I still think Llama's play is distressing, because he not only is convinced he's found a scum, he appears to be convinced he's found ALL the scum

That's a mischaracterization or strawmanning his argument IMO.

GW is quiet and Pacman is away, but it's too soon to do a Lurk-Lynch.

If you want to pressure them, do so. But why speculate about a lynch over someone that doesn't post? When is that a good idea?

That's kind of why I'm surprised people are upset at my announcement of who I am: The more information that is on the table, the smaller the relative gap between the uninformed and the informed.

1. It leads to speculation over power roles, which can help scum decide who to night kill if we're right.
2. It leads to believing in the burden of proof. Scum could wait and claim good guys that haven't been claimed yet, or pick an obscure minor character right off the bat.
Do you disagree that these are bad for town / good for scum?

Pacman's confirm post happened after Xtoxm exploded. He jokingly voted for Poro before retracting it and voting for Jahudo. Then, when asked what the heck just happened, he pointed the FoS at the person who asked him. All this when we had a known Threat to the Town already out there. He then continued not to vote for the admitted Serial Killer. When asked about this, he said he was worried about there being a bomb or a jester. Those roles I could buy being in a 24-person game, but a 12? Wouldn't only the essentials be in a game like that?

This I like. Pacman give us your train of thought on who's scummy and who's towny. What do you see?

[Jahudo]

@Drunken Piper: I'd be interested to hear some analysis from you. You appear to be keeping up with the game but I don't feel as though you're as directly involved.

@Dukes:

GW is quiet and Pacman is away, but it's too soon to do a Lurk-Lynch.

If you want to pressure them, do so. But why speculate about a lynch over someone that doesn't post? When is that a good idea?

Isn't one of the classic beginner's scumtells to say nothing and let go with the flow, knowing "the flow" is mathematically more likely to lead to a townie? Again, as you speculated, this may be a pacing issue.

How was pacman doing this exactly? He didn't go with the flow and vote for the confirmed scum, but like you said looked at the possibility of jester. Do you read it differently than him looking out for town's best interests?

@porochaz: I feel that alot of your posts deal with the whole role cop business and the SK. If you think Llama is not tunnelvisioned, do you think he makes a good point and its worth any other questions at this time? What other current suspicions are valid and which if any are BS?

@Zorblag: Looking back I see where you make the read on Dukes sitting on the fence. He went from FoSing X and poro to voting X after several people posted disagreeing with the bussing possibility which we was putting forward. These people also believed X was SK and were more likely to vote him.

Also: Dukes says that poro claimed X was SK. Dukes post sound like he either misread that poro was officially claiming himself or Dukes was trying to imply this and that's where his suspicion comes in. Dukes didn't believe there was such a thing about a day town investigator whatever role.

Another thing: Dukes goes after pacman for thinking about the jester and says that jesters can't be in a game like this, 24 players maybe but not 12.

@Dukes: If you understand setup roles like this then no newbie card for you. I also think that this setup talk and talk about your own role is not a substitute for scumhunting and you've used it for poro and pacman so far.

FoS: Dukes

[Jahudo]

I'm not buying the GW lurking as a scum tell yet, but I also remember that his original V/LA was during the first RL week of this game and we are well past that.

What GW games do you have in mind DP? There's Pikimin mafia where poro replaced GW as scum but I didn't see any blatant lurking.

[Jahudo]

DP -- I'm looking into other GW games as you suggested, and your meta-ing so far seems to be an honest play. My apologies.

I still can't find the game(s).

I also wish to point out that Jahudo said my logic made some sense, and he wanted to hear what you thought of certain issues

I liked your effort of scumhunting back then on pacman but I didn't agree/disagree with the points you brought up. I'm not sure what pacman did was a scum tell because SK does not work with scum, so scum could have more reason to kill them than bus fellow scum. More importantly, I felt that you caught pacman not being an involved contributer to a main discussion. He was more on the side of the discussion talking about setup.

I have a few questions to pacman about why his suspects:

Porochaz: Weird. Confirmed. It's funny how did he meta (or catch breadcrumb? or what?) in X and he did make it correct... Also his "breadcrumb" (that might not be it as well) is weird...

I think poro joke voted because of his meta on X. What breadcrumb are you talking about?

kloud1516: Not completely sure about him. Some good comments, some not-good ones, some bad ones... I don't know what to say about him...

Why aren't the bad ones making you think he's scum/anti-town? Why aren't the good ones making you think he's town/pro-town? Are they not strong enough to get a read? Are they cancelling each other out so it's more of a neutral read?

LlammaFluff: Didn't understand him well...

Do you have a specific reason?

[Jahudo]

JOAT is Jack Of All Trades.

Wiki doesn't elaborate on which roles they will have, but just says that once a role is used, it can't be used again. I'd never heard of this, but anything is possible as long as the game balancing is there.

[Jahudo]

I will still provide the links if you are just fact checking my meta to see if I am on the up and up

No, that’s okay. Ghost only had one post so I don’t think the lurking was intentional or else he would have posted enough to scoot by, like you say. And I recognized your vote as honest pressure and not inflating a case.

Jahudo -- playing his cards somewhat close to the vest

What does that mean exactly?

The vote is also made for “strawmanning” which I really don’t think occurred in this case. I am bad with the word, but have never seen it used on the first post a player makes in a game, even more so a joke post.

Well, strawmanning is taking a small piece of someone’s case and saying it’s incorrect, ergo the whole case must be incorrect, right?

In our case, Dukes was making the case against pacman for not paying attention to the SK threat. Dukes does not present the whole truth in his case, so pacman is saying that he’s being strawmanned.

I do think that Dukes took some things out of context but ironically I find pacman strawmanning Dukes because pacman points out this context error but does not acknowledge that pacman was not paying attention to the SK threat. I think pacman was more confused about what happened then talked about a jester role, so he didn’t ignore X, but he didn’t pay any attention to people talking about X is SK or X is scum, and that is a good accusation to bring against him.

But Dukes took pacman’s first two votes out of context, both of which were jokes. He then exaggerated the pacman FoS on Poro, which wasn’t bolded and I think pacman’s FoS was another joke anyway. And pacman said he was confused about the SK claim 20 minutes after his joke votes, so the accusation that he was pressured by poro to get involved does not seem as strong a case. Throughout the day I've found Dukes to be probing suspicion like this and am starting to find it more scummy, although his defenses have seemed to come from a town so I'm not sure this is the best candidate for a vote.

@LlamaFluff
-It is valid that Pacman should have gone directly into the SK talk and ignored the random joke vote phase, but his joke post and his "I’m confused" post were 20 minutes apart in time so I disagree that he was trying to derail anything.

-I agree that talking about the jester but ignoring other people’s opinions on X as SK or X as scum is being anti-town. I think it is slightly scummy because he is trying to keep X alive instead of deciding if X is better of dead or alive.

-Zorblag describes pacman’s posting as terse. Do you agree with this?

I have a meta on pacman where he was scum if you are interested but I am still thinking he may be this way as town too.

Back to Dukes: Do you disagree with my opinion that you took pacman’s early actions and either exaggerated the intention or took them out of context?

[Jahudo]

pacman: Of course we didn't know for sure that Xtoxm was telling the truth, but most people were working off the theory that he was SK and deciding whether or not to keep him alive. Why didn't you at least evaluate both sides and see which you'd rather support in the hypothetical case that we did have a claimed SK and jester wasn't a possibility?

[Jahudo]

pacman: Of course we didn't know for sure that Xtoxm was telling the truth, but most people were working off the theory that he was SK and deciding whether or not to keep him alive. Why didn't you at least evaluate both sides and see which you'd rather support in the hypothetical case that we did have a claimed SK and jester wasn't a possibility?

[Jahudo]

Who in world would openly claim SK? Poro's guess looks like a lucky shot or possibly meta

Possibly meta? On page two from a couple random Xtoxm posts? I feel like you're pulling for reasons after the fact and we have no way to gauge how you actually felt day 1. I'm not convinced you're scum though, because of the meta I think I have on you.

The only reason that I'll raise anything close to an objection is that he is moving to one of the players with more suspicion. If LlamaFluff were scum with Dukes and Wolframnhart were town that move would be the right one to make as the Wolframnhart attack didn't seem to be gaining any momentum and it has helped to draw more attention away from Dukes. On the other hand, as I said, pacman281292 would be on my short list of people to fucus on as well so a town LlamaFluff would probably make the same move.

I can see what you're thinking here but I don't know what kind of objection you're raising. A player that moves to a wagon with supported reasoning tends to look more town than a player that moves to a wagon with inflated reasoning. You seem to think pacman is someone to look at, so why are you concerned that people are doing that?

[Jahudo]

Anyone not voting: Who do you find most suspicious and why aren't you voting them?

I find Dukes most suspicious but I am not ready to put him to L-2 because we're not close to the deadline and there are several people I have weak or neutral reads on: you, wolf, and poro.

[Jahudo]

Vote: Dukes

I don't agree with the case on pacman and I don't think he was being angry/abrasive, but maybe that's because I'm used to seeing things get out of control and negative.

Dukes is my top suspect and should be at L-2 if pacman is. I feel that Dukes has been testing the waters on various people throughout the day. This could be a town tell for active scumhunting, but I think he's looking for suspicious behavior without reading into them. To an extent I think he wanted to point out Zorblag's day 1 behavior and vote to give it attention, but he dropped the case until just recently but again didn't act on it.

1. He might have been trying to make poro guilty by association with Xtoxm when he FoS'ed them both and theoried the bussing idea.

2. When Llama questioned the motives of the people suspicious of poro day 1, Dukes replied to Llama with a mis-characterization/strawman of Llama's case:

I still think Llama's play is distressing, because he not only is convinced he's found a scum, he appears to be convinced he's found ALL the scum

3. Dukes early on suspected multiple people without reason, calling it a blind stab in the dark.

4. Created a suspicion list where he suspected pacman and GW partly for not posting enough, and suspected DP for pressuring someone who wasn't posting enough.

5. I already commented on his case against pacman and pacman's response, me feeling that they both made bad arguments and falsehoods. It might be a scum tell on pacman too, but he's been playing against my meta on him and he was playing in defense on this occasion.

[Jahudo]

This time by not paying attention to the argument that was brewing, he does not have to take a stance either way on if they are just joking around, or if they are being serious. By not having to take a stance on them being serious, he is able to see what way the town sways before deciding to come in with an opinion one way or the other.

But what do you think about DP saying that scum could've jumped on that wagon with little or no heat? I don't think the argument here is that pacman didn't have a stance on what to do with an anti-town role. We learn that he didn't believe the claim, so the stance he could've been stronger on was what to do with jester/WIFOM situation.

I'm sure it's also WIFOM to think that scum would take one stance or any stance at all in the "X is SK so what do we do with him" debate, but I agree that it was an opportune moment for scum to take a stance rather than ignore it.

[Jahudo]

@wolf: Why did you refrain from judging pacman until your vote on Dukes? If you FoS'ed Dukes early on in day 2, why did you not pursue him more up until your vote? Why did you largely ignore Dukes?

@DP: Why did you refrain from judging pacman until the post before your vote on Dukes? Why did you largely ignore Dukes besides his attack on your meta suggestion for GW?

Wolf gives an suspicion on dukes back in post 208 and post 225, and then some discussion about Dukes here: post 265.

Wolf talks about pacman here, post 311, but it sounds more like not understanding the pacman vote rather than defending pacman.

Wolf then votes dukes here post 341 while talking about both dukes and pacman. Again I don't see it as a defense of pacman but as not understanding what pacman did scummy.

DP kind of suspects Dukes here, post 230, but I don't think it's that strong. Then he switches from voting Ghost to Zorblag, then later on a post here
post 333 that suspects Dukes and also doesn't agree with the case against pacman. He said he'd likely vote Dukes. His next post, post 343, comes a day later where he hammers Dukes.

At least I see some buildup to a vote for wolf, but with DP I did not know what he was feeling and he kept his suspicions on Dukes quiet until he hammered. Not helpful.

FoS: DP

@Also DP: What do you make of Zorblag's maybe minor attempt to switch wagons from Dukes to pacman given that Dukes is town?

1. I have fully roleclaimed. Believe it or disbelieve it, I have at least a full claim of a main character in the series that no one has counter-claimed on yet.

Does anyone else think we should decide a way to popcorn roles throughout today, given that if there might be 3 scum (I doubt it though) we would need to get one of them today or at night.

[Jahudo]

Funny you say I ignored Dukes...compared to who? I stated several times (more that what you indicated) what I didnt like about Dukes. Not sure why you are trying to spin that I ignored him when that isnt the case what so ever.

There was also post 174 but that was day 1 and I was referring to the day 2 wagon. If there were other day 2 posts I must be missing them. I also don't think you ignored Dukes as a player, but I did not see the progression of suspicion from you or any sign or lack of doubt that I think should come before a hammer vote. I left the FoS off wolf because I could trace his growing suspicion.

Also about your hammer, you did say that you would vote in the post before you actually voted. You didn't say if it was a hammer but after wolf's L-1 vote at least Dukes was given some time to give a final post. There wasn't a lot of time given for any L-1 discussion but I felt that with Dukes last post there wasn't much left to discuss. So i'm not suspicious of your timing, but more confused what you were thinking up until your last two posts.

[Jahudo]

what really put me over the edge was Zor's post about not being against the Pac wagon...I mean where the shit did that come from?...I read that, like he was trying to test the waters to divert the Dukes wagon to Pac.

Maybe Zorblag could look pro-town by trying to avoid a mislynch and maybe he was already thinking about who alot of people were going to suspect the next day and wanted to be a part of that wagon. These are things that scum could want to do but I also did not see a strong enough attempt from him to try and avoid the mislynch. I also could see him as town accepting most of the points that other people had against Dukes and pacman, which will make you want to get rid of both of them.

DP: From your perspective on who looks scummy and town, do you have any idea why Llama was nk'ed and what WIFOM if anything that presents? I actually found him very pro-town and I don't see it as coming from someone he suspected in that poro must be scum cop investigation.

In the process of rereading. Will get something up shortly.

Kloud: What have you been thinking from your re-read?

It wasn't that I was refraining from judging pacman, it's just that i was really not getting the votes and scrutiny on him.

Was there anything about the votes and scrutiny that looked scum driven or do you see some or all of it as misguided? Where do you feel these occured?

@Group: Have you looked at all into pacman's meta? I know a little of it but will probably try and find comparisons in more games.

[Jahudo]

@Group but particularly kmd, poro and DP: what do you feel about this suggestion and doing it either today or tomorrow?:

Does anyone else think we should decide a way to popcorn roles throughout today, given that if there might be 3 scum (I doubt it though) we would need to get one of them today or at night.

I do not think it will or should be the main motivating factor to clear or vote someone, but it may help find inconsistencies in how we've been playing so far and create some speculation which I give an example of below.

Everytime I have been a Hider or Modded a game with a Hider I provided the information whether hiding behind a mafia member is fatal or not. He comes out and claims that the most protown player is town and people just eat it up without question. He doesnt scum hunt. he doesnt provide his thoughts on anything else....he doesnt comment on yesterday..

Is there a different version of hider with different rules than the "official hider" that pacman is talking about?

I think the revealed characters alignments make sense in hindsight. You'd assume Fry, Leela and other Planet Express workers to be town and would be huge gambits for scum to claim unless they've found out enough information already, which I doubt.

Another possibility I'm thinking of is a way to be a protown player but play as scum or third party. If you look at the picture on the front page, it shows Hermes with a brain slug. In fact, Hermes is the character that is associated with the brain slug the most, so I wouldn't count out pacman being Hermes with the brain slug making him do whatever the brain slug wanted. He tried to get Fry to wear a brain slug in the show right? I guess that's a cult leader but now I'm really speculating.

I think it's more important that pacman just comes in and claims but doesn't comment on the game or give his thoughts on anyone else, besides I guess saying I didn't kill him last night.

poro: Do you think pacman's role is all that powerful now that he's claimed?

[Jahudo]

Kloud is looking really pro-town today for his scum hunting and I think that some suspicions are valid except I have a problem with how he's recently taken it but I will allow Zorblag to answer it first.

It looks like most people agree that we should wait until tomorrow to role claim and some of the suggestions like random dice to popcorn sound like a good idea for whenever we do it.

Frankly I think with just claiming characters there may be a few that will look like a power role to scum, so I think breadcrumbing is a good compromise for now and we get back to scum hunting.

[Jahudo]

Why did I claim? When N2 started, I knew that the way I pushed the lynch on Dukes (a townie) would be the insurance to my death. So, I decided to gather info with my role... but I got to be enough coward to hide behind the towniest of all.

I guess I can understand the reason of claiming if you think you can avoid getting killed at night and learn alignments by way of not dying. This information makes me think you should not be lynched today at least. The problem is, if you die at night we won't know who you hid with.

Also, why did you think I was towniest from what happened day 2 but not day 1?

I know all this looks like AtE, but that's what I think *slaps self*

What's AtE?

[Jahudo]

I'm not sure what in particular you had in mind there and I'm a bit slow right now as I've just spent the past 6 hours straight grading papers but it is clear that you probably think some of the issues that were raised about me had some merit. I'm happy to address any that you'd like to bring up. I'm also curious as to whether what you had in mind what that sentence was addressed in my post here.

Basically it was when kloud said this:

You claim that "the way he chose not to win arbitrarily hurts town and helps scum," which to me implies that you felt that the xtoxm lynch was not the best move. If you would have elaborated to explain the lack of information was the negative/harm you were referring to, then my opinion of this would have differed. You didn't though, and your desire for more information is already questionable based on reasonings provided both in this post and in post 362.

I also felt that the Zorblag quote kloud used explained that it was about the lack of information and not about trying to say that xtoxm was not the best move. I don't know how kloud came to that conclusion.

[Jahudo]

@pacman: I had to look it up just to see what you were talking about. It's Stoofer's 3rd law but yeah, a complicated game favors scum and the number of pro-town power roles may actually help scum.

I guess I can agree with that because some pro-town roles like roleblocker or vig can be used on town, etc. But you'd think that if there are 3 scum then we'd have some good power roles, more so than a doc and a RB which we've lost.

Here's some more pros and cons I can think of:

PRO MASSCLAIM:
A massclaim might be beneficial so people with power roles know what to expect at night and what to check out, like an investigative role confirming something.
A massclaim could help us come to an agreement whether or not we're at Lynch-or-lose.

CON MASSCLAIM:
Scum will know the best power role to kill or block, etc.
We can not know for sure if we are at Lynch-or-lose.

Also, I don't know characters will help as much as I had previously thought. Looking at the Family Guy game, I realized that "good" characters were scum (ex. Brian, Meg) and characters didn't get roles you'd think they would (ex. Joe was not a cop). So I don't see any pro or con to a character claim. I've already breadcrumbed my character name and I don't mind claiming it either.

[Jahudo]

Jahudo has questioned on subjects without giving his own opinion on them. This may or may not be an accurate claim, and so if I have made a mistake please tell me otherwise

What about the Dukes and pacman interactions? post 285 and post 327 for example.

I understand that it can only help if everyone gives they're suspect list now. I want to look at wolf, kmd, and poro a little closer because my reads aren't as strong on them and then I'll post a suspect list. Right now I don't have a good read on anyone as scummy so if I can't find anything, I'll support the massclaim.

@wolf: What do you mean? Do you think a night action from last night might affect today's voting?[/i]

[Jahudo]

Ugh. We could go back and forth forever on 2 scum or 3 but it's been a long time with too little scum hunting.

Zorblag: I keep going back and forth on him in my head. His back and forth with Kloud is interesting.

Can you be more specific? Do you think that kloud is misrepresenting the case? Do you think that Zorblag looks town without the perspective of thinking kloud is scummy?

wolf...I think he and Jahudo have posted the most content analyzing this predicament (correct me if I am wrong). This being said, I must admit that I have not read as closely into Wolf's play as I need to, which is my reasoning for placing him in the neutral territory.

Do you think that scum would want to prolong setup talk and massclaim ideas for their own reasons? Do you think that anyone is intentionally doing this or is everyone just trying to make sure we make the right decision?

I receive a not-so-good vibe from Zorblag; possibly due to his high activity, he usually makes some bad points; also, he looked "swingy" at some points. He is not totally scummy, but he is sometimes not good.
...
I receive a not so good vibe from Porochaz; his posts are usually not good, and he swinged waay fast after my claim.

pacman, can you explain how you think these people are "swingy"? Is that similar to wishy washy voting behavior or suspicion behavior? Do you think that they are genuinely following their feelings or are they the feelings of the group that is motivating them?

[Jahudo]

vote: no massclaim

[Jahudo]

I'm back after some vacationing.

I'm still waiting to hear suspicions from Drunken Piper (who I know is V/LA), Jahudo (which surprises me as somehow I thought he'd done something along these lines)

Some but not everybody yet and I am still not getting strong reads on a few people.

[Jahudo]

Eh, well better make it known that I die if I hide behind Mafia

Do you know this or are you inferring it?

Anyway, the only thing I remember thinking about this game, is that Wolf was scum.

Anyone wanna give me a summary or sth?

Yes, I'd like to know why you thought he was scum.

Dead doc, RB, hider.

What if everyone else were vanilla, or everyone but 1 was vanilla? Would that change your opinion of how many scum you think there are?

[Jahudo]

Xtoxm's vote is certainly a twist,
Now back to making my scum suspicion list.

Hello all, I am back from v/la. I will be doing a reread and getting something up shortly.

kloud: How is that reread coming?

@Xtoxm: Ok, so you don't think wolf is as suspicious as you thought, but why are you voting for DP now?

[Jahudo]

I think I made the internets angry in that failed post above when I tried to make all the post references into urls. I'm sorry internets.

Anyway, here's my stream of thoughts. It rambles alot and some of my opinions I hold stronger than others so just ask for details but I'm not finished building a case yet and I still have yet to see what X2 is thinking so I may re-arrange my suspect list soon.

Porochaz

• Post 120 I felt he expressed honest opinions in the X claim and lynch day 1. Had a good reason to off him today as opposed to the future.
• Post 129 says he doesn’t think roleclaiming affects the game but he is strongly against massclaiming now?
• I thought he handled all the business about being suspected a “role cop” well by not reacting defensively or OMGUS. Brushed it off because it wasn’t an issue and his posts where he addresses that he made a joke look like a townie reaction.
• Post 205 good opinion giving on llama
• Post 218 and 221 good approach to dealing with Dukes it looks like poro is going for information rather than an easy target.

Kloud

• Post 143 gives his opinion on what he thinks X and poro are and what to do with them. This is well after the majority has given a sentiment. Kloud agrees that X is too much a threat to keep around, but disagrees with prevailing thought that poro is not scum day role cop. Prefers to look for role cop today. His defense from poro and llama seems honest.
• Post 193 says its time for actual analyzing players but this post is mostly to reiterate his defense for how he viewed poro and he now gives a more complete opinion that he thinks poro was joking instead of claiming.
• Post 198 good opinion giving.
• Post 362 feels like genuine town pro-activity. I don’t see any opportunism in the timing of his line of thinking, it seems more curious and an effect of reading.
• Post 419 looks like he’s paying attention to the game.

Kmd4390

• Post 246 looks like he’s not posting as he’s reading and I’m not sure which pages, maybe the first and most recent but not the middle, he has a good grasp on? His opinion of pacman looks insightful.
• Post 415 and 417 gives scum picks but doesn’t explain case, that’s not helpful. Saying poro is a top choice because he hasn’t been scrutinized isn’t a good reason.
• Post 425 still not very full analysis, many of the opinions feel like they’re taken from other players which may be a natural agreement or an attempt to gain concensus on who to limit the suspicion to. Doesn’t explain what poro flying under the radar means and why it’s something to note.
• Lots of posts where he’s asking questions, which is good.

Drunken Piper

• Didn’t rhyme or take a sip in post 174. Obv scumtell
• Post 213 best scumhunting question to Dukes so far.
• Post 280 vote zorblag because he listed 3 scum suspects but ignored why he was one of them: that Zorblag didn’t think he was scumhunting beyond the GW lurk meta. Seems to be ignoring it. Kmd listed 3 suspects in 247 but no mention? Why not?
• I still feel that he didn’t spend time visibly supporting the Dukes lynch or trying to question anything out of him. Listed a few suspicions near the end but did not go in depth on any posts of Dukes.
• Post 367 makes some good points that there’s unanswered questions about pacman but people unvoted and didn’t question his claim.
• Post 506 has good opinions on Zorblag and kloud exchanges. How he says zorblag is accommodating and where he wonders if kloud believes zorblag is scummy and why, look insightful and curious.

Animorpherv1 (wolframnhart)

• Post 46 pro town points for giving his opinion on the claimed SK early on without wanting to see what other people will do.
• Post 186 reactionary post to llama seems a bit over the top. Does not sit well with lack of addressing the main scumhunting of Dukes at the time.
• Post 208 seems good because its suspecting and questioning Dukes but feels generic and half-hearted attempt to join in.
• Post 265 makes it sound like he’s not going to jump on an opportunistic lynch of the lurker GW. This opinion comes after GW was replaced by an active kmd though so there’s no opportunism left to have.
• Post 414 odd that he lists pacman as pro-town just because of the benefit his claimed role could be to the town. Nothing about what wolf thinks of pacman the player. Also doesn’t explain his weariness of DP well.

Zorblag

• Post 30 answers question not directed at him and revotes from that person
• Post 60 wonders if poro is town daycop trying to hide his role. Not something you’d want to put in the minds of scum.
• Post 76 hints that x as jester and poro as scum rolecop would make sense then advocates both killing poro today, x tomorrow, and keeping him around which benefits scum.
• Post 78 says he never believed x was jester. Seems like post 76 was noncommittal when compared to this firmer stance.
• When Llama in post 83 says that people suggesting poro is scum are more likely to be scum, Zorblag gives his opinion in 98 that poro is not likely scum. FoS on Dukes seems weak.
• Post 182 gives a good reason for why more discussion would have been a good thing day 1 and I think this answers why he continued to talk at the end of day 1, and said day 2 that scum had rull range of options without a concern for how it would look. Good answer.
• Post 279 makes his opinion known that he thinks DP isn’t scumhunting much beyond GW meta and not much from DP to suggest he’s town. Since it’s the first of this opinion I saw, and the timing of it, I think it’s genuine.
• Post 334 explains his stance and attack on DP well but also backs off from sounding confrontational. Could be personality but I think it could be intentionally trying to sound nice when a more important lynch is going on.
• Post 458 looks like he’s trying to bring the group discussion back into the focus of who to lynch.

Xtoxm (pacman)

• My opinion on pacman still stands based on how I saw a lack of participation and scumhunting but I also attribute some of his difficulty to the meta I think, now hoping, I have right about him. I thought he strawmanned Dukes’ case because he was ignoring the argument where pacman didn’t acknowledge the SK day 1. But I also thought Dukes was misrepresenting posts and taking actions out of context to make them seem worse off, where I didn’t see much wrong in them. As a whole, pacman did not pay attention or focus much on what was important so he was not pro-town, but I was not convinced that he was acting scummy.
• pacman 181 doesn’t explain why vote and suspicions are weak. It was something DP first brought up, but pacman looks worse off for using at to vote.
• Post 409 don’t like his opinions, they don’t feel researched and don’t explain much. They could be gut reads but it doesn’t look like he’s reading carefully.
• Post 485 doesn’t give reason for his vote, which is bad.
• Post 498 I find it slightly odd that X knows his hider role will kill him if he hides behind scum, but pacman didn’t know that. If pacman was unfamiliar with the role then why was he speculating like he knew the role. Something doesn’t seem right.
• Post 504 actually doesn’t have a case on wolf, then votes for someone not in this game so he either is confused or not reading yet.
• Post 507 no reason provided for vote, I don’t like this in day 3

Here's the short version:

MORE TOWN VIBE

Porochaz - gives opinions, thought his reactions day 1 were normal. Constructive questioning of Dukes day 2.
Kloud - good analysis, looks like he's reading when he posts.
kmd - early behavior where he gave suspicions without presenting reasons.
DP - sonetimes lacks opinion and not enough participation in questioning Dukes.
Animorpherv1 - wolf often did not give strong opinions, not sure how caught up animorpherv is before giving opinions.
Zorblag - some early posts that could have been waiting for a safe consensus before he gave his own opinion.
Xtoxm - no reason to say pacman was town or X is acting town now.

MORE SCUM VIBE

FoS: Xtoxm

now is not the time to make assumptions without reason or vote without building a case.

Q's for X: Why do you think pacman was unsure about his role's abilities? Why do you think Dukes was lynched over pacman? Why do you think it was a evenly split suspicion between them and do you see scum influence there? Why do you think DP is scummy?

[Jahudo]

Also, the massclaim conversation is a reason to suspect Porochaz. I don't think I've been very clear about that.

Yes, one thing I want to ask poro is why he didn't care if anyone roleclaiming and saying it didn't affect the game day 1 but is against claiming now?

[Jahudo]

@Xtoxm:

Why do you think Dukes was lynched over pacman?

No idea. Haven't looked at it in any detail.

Why do you think it was a evenly split suspicion between them and do you see scum influence there?

???

It's a quiz to see if you're understanding and have an opinion on the main events that happened while you were gone.

@Porochaz:
This is the post:

I think roleclaiming does not effect the game in any way and couldnt care less if someone claimed

In context, your previous post had been 10 minutes earlier and the only post in between was Zorblag who said this:

Dukes, you're not being at all shy about your insinuation that you're a robot:
Why do you think that's helpful for the town as something to do on pages 1 and 2?

Dukes was being obvious that he was bender or at least a robot. But you didn't say character claiming, you said role claiming.

[Jahudo]

I agree with DP: Animorpherv what do you mean by claiming?
@DP why did you unvote if you think he's scum?

I've been looking at the pages directly up to this wagon on Xtoxm but I actually don't see anything as scummy opportunistic on the people voting him. Anyone see it a different way? My one concern is that DP says this:

Been reviewing Pac and now X2….and am now wishing I had been on his lynch yesterday. I didn’t really give Pac the needed look, because I didn’t like those who pushed so hard for him yesterday.

I don't think that people pushing hard on a case is a reason to skip over it.

Since we've got a deadline coming up I will vote Xtoxm unless he starts participating and giving a good defense. He didn't like playing SK so maybe his inactivity is a tell too. Pacman was a bad player and I decided that some of his lurking and closed mindedness was indicative of being pacman instead than being an alignment, but X is pushing the role to scum.

[Jahudo]

(ani) obviously is not trying to scum hunt or he would have read the thread and would have known X has already claimed.
that vote reeks of opportunity.

I can believe that his post 534 can precede a X vote although I will agree that he didn't show much to come to those conclusions.

and in regards to yesterday...I meant how the cases were pushed...if you remember I called out llama yesterday for flaws in her attack of Pac..

Yes I thought those were flaws in the pacman argument too since I can accept someone having to adjust from the light mood of random votes to a serious SK claim. But pacman did have later posts scrutinized for not scumhunting.

@DP

: Yes, I did read, I mentioned last page that why did he say something diferent than what pacman said about his role? I also quoted a few things I found scummy/generally helpful or weird.

So what exactly were you asking him to do if he claimed his side of the story about the role? We have to decide on our own if this is a slipup of faking a claim or not.

I am trying to find scum, I was just lost in a blank spot,

unvote

for now.

Vote: Animorpherv1

Why are you so quick to unvote? Are you trying to pressure Xtoxm?

[Jahudo]

Mod:

How many votes do we need to make a lynch go through at deadline?

[Jahudo]

Let me try to wrap my head around this one.

Xtoxm Pro scum vibe. Votes wolf (me), without rereading, then unvotes, and votes Drunken Piper (I'm assuming I have that right) for no reason?

This is why you originally voted for Xtoxm. It has nothing to do with pacman and is not considering the claim. So what has changed here to make you unvote? I don’t think Xtoxm has looked any more town since your vote.

Now about the claim.

I visited Xotxm to see his claim, I forgot that pacman claimed earlier.
I noticed my mistake after you guys claimed it.
I admitted my mistake, yet you people don't belive me.

This looks like reaching. Where did you forget about pacman’s claim? You were the one to point it out in post 533:

Eh, well better make it known that I die if I hide behind Mafia

Do you know this or are you inferring it?

I know it.

When before, pacman answered he didn't know.

Then you post:

I wanted to make sure I wasn't going to lynch him without his claim

, thats why I haven't voted him yet, so vote:Xotxm for 2 reasons, I think he is scum, and I want to see him claim.

But the only Xtoxm post in between your suspicion of Xtoxm and your vote of him was this:

PM is very unclear. I sent several PMs to the mod to ask about technicalities etc.

So the path I see here is you find Xtoxm suspicious for his day 3 votes but you withhold voting until he explains why he and pacman had different feelings about their role power. He tells you why this could have happened and then you vote him. Then you unvote for no apparent reason other than people start questioning your actions.

From my perspective, your knowledge of pacman’s claim was the only reason you withheld a vote from Xtoxm until he explained it. Now your last post is backtracking from your position of knowing about pacman's claim, and it looks like a scum reaction to get rid of pressure.

Scum can't talk in the day, remember?

What is this implying?

[Jahudo]

Where is everyone else? If you are not going to vote, then at least say the top 2 or so people you would be voting for. I currently support the animorph lynch over others. Whoever agrees/disagrees with this wagon do not keep quiet.

[Jahudo]

It's the only option if the alternative is an NL in lylo.

How so? Part of the case against KMD is his pro-massclaim stance and believing today to be lylo. You agree with him in that!

I think Kloud's vote and suspicions follow his previous posts, and I can see the logic behind poro's vote, but Xtoxm's vote hopping is terribly scummy.

unvote; Vote: Xtoxm

Animorph falls to 2nd in my suspicions.
I think KMD is town but not as strongly as I feel kloud and poro are town so I guess I've got some stuff to re-read.

[Jahudo]

I don't at all like him bringing up the idea of a no lynch as I don't think that is particularly helpful.

How so?

[Jahudo]

I was sure from my role pm that there would be a Zapp Brannigan but that didn't affect my idea of mass claim because I could see him just as likely scum.

Killing the claimed hider was just wrong though. Especially if you werent going to massclaim the same day. I dont know how that was managed

The different explanation of what happened when they hid behind scum made me wary but alot more was X's non commitment and his self-hammer before we could try for a last minute change.

Anyway, good game.