Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)

[LlamaFluff]

Wow, you just changed half of your case. Now its not "you didnt respond to Corin", you just added in a bunch of stuff that basically ammounts to "you had a weak case that lynched town". First of all, a weak case is purely subjective. I thought the case was the best one, so I pushed it, just like you thought the best case was FL. If FL was lynched and flipped town, that does not allow me to say "scum scum, look at that weak case he pushed on town". With that logic every town mislynch we should just lynch the creator. In hindsight there can be flaws exposed in every case, the only airtight ones are cop investigations.

Your 855 "evidence" was weak at best - pure speculation about what you thought his intentions could be based on many other factors that you had no way of backing up. Speculating that an FoS on FL on D1.0 was to set up a lynch on 1.5 on FL *IF* fl flipped town is faulty logic.

See, this is attacking me by attacking my case. Also, if you really were able to read through D1.0 without realizing that a fl-town flip would create quite a few votes for FL the next day, you are really dense. I could see it coming from pages before the first lynch occured.

Most of your case against him in 855 is - and this is a really big shocker - he's attacking FL. Who you keep defending. A defense you refuse to explain, and continue to dodge when asked about.

I dont see a strong case on FL. The best thing is the "I would of hammered". That "never vote" thing is annoying, but again, was predictable. I still dont see why a Corin vote was scummy too, and you havent explained (at least not well) why voting Corin over K7 is scummy.

You called FL innocent because 3 people you thought were scum were pushing to get her lynched - yet you've managed to get 2 of the 3 on that list lynched (and they both flipped TOWN) - so your logic is shot full of holes at this point - saying FL is still innocent when it has been revealed that town has been pushing the wagon on her gives you ZERO reason to proclaim her innocence. (see Post #471 for proof of this)

Having town vote for FL does not mean that she is scum first off, our lynches have proven that already. Now, you also are misrepresenting me in acting like it is only these players having voted for her that make me think that FL is town. As I already stated, I dont see much of a case against them, so am not going to vote them. The early votes did play a part of me forming opinions on players, but it is not what I base every read off.

I'd like to point out, you completely discount and ignore facts put right in front of you when the person who puts them there happens to be on your scum list at the time. Open your eyes and see the evidence.

I am looking at the evidence. You are a better lynch. SC is a better lynch. There are multiple other better lynches.

I have already shown ample evidence that you IGNORED multiple requests for more evidence on Corin. Please read post #913 - Corin asks you then to restate your case. Armlx also says he doesn't see the case against Corin in posts #916 and #918. KoC posts in #927 that Corin's only remotely scummy act was the "I refuse to respond to that kind of bullshit" statement, versus K7's multiple scummy acts.

Hey cool! Now we get back to your original post that I already defended against. You start by saying there wasnt 100% consent on my case. I already dont see how that qualifies as a point, as that can be used against any case ever made in this game or practically case in every game. Also I refrenced him to my last case. I am not going to retype everything if it hasnt gotten a response.

Post #947 - OP doesn't find Corin scummy.

And...... ?

Post#960 - your reply to Corin's #913, where you say he doesn't defend himself, and you

completely ignore his request for you to

RESTATE

the case, not refer back to the pitiful one in #855.

OK - Let me make this perfectly clear. I am NOT going to redo an entire case against a player if they havent even responded to the inital one I created. Corin wanted a case against him, I told him where to find it. Also again, you are taking a shot at my case which I already addressed. Sure is seeming hard for you to attack me without mentioning my "weak" case or other players actions or thoughts.

Post #1069 - OP says Llama has built a strong case on Corin, which leads to:

Isnt this more a point against OP?

Post #1071 - Corin asks what the case is, because the only evidence he can find that Llama is using is lurking and refusing to respond to Llama's posts initially (because of bully voting to elicit a response). He also states that the people agreeing with Llama or citing scummy behavior ALSO fail to quote or cite specific examples. You never respond to this post (even though you make a post in 1084 to attempt to push the people not on wagon to jump on) and you say nothing outside of 1084. Were you hoping the deadline would save you from having to respond to Corin's questions and your actions on 1.5?

Ok, you are getting stubborn here. I presented a case, it didnt get responded to. A case was asked for, I pointed him at it. The case still never was responded to. If I dont refrence my case that I have pointed out multiple times before 100% of the time when doing so has proven futal so far sue me. Also again, nice reaching with the deadline idea.

Post#1106 - Joubert rereads and can't find the scummy behavior everyone says Corin has.

And this is a point against me beacsue.... ?

Why did you refuse to restate or provide more evidence on Corin, given all the above information? You were asked multiple times, and your case had doubt thrown upon it by multiple parties. Your refusal to respond because it is a past case on a person who is already lynched is DODGING. Quit hiding, defend your actions, because they alone are incredibly scummy, and the fact that you continue to refuse to defend your actions is even more scummy.

What do you really want to accomplish here? A resurection of a Corin-scum case with you playing this part? I proved enough reasoning to put a vote down in my opinion. People agreed with me and voted along me, people disagreed and votes where they wanted. Corin seemed to have problems responding to my case. I presented it a few times, and it was ignored quite a bit by him.

I dont care if you are now ranting about how you dont think it was a good case. I made my case, it wasnt reponded to quite a few times even with prodding. When it was responded to, I returned the favor. How am I scum when the person I make a case against chooses not to respond but just asks for it to be stated over and over?

I DO NOT LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM

StrangerCoug - 5 (TheSweatpantsNinja, SpryeX, armlx, Manito, orangepenguin)
SpyreX - 3 (Netlava, ThAdmiral, StrangerCoug)
Manito - 1 (LlamaFluff)

Not voting - killa seven

10 alive, 6 to lynch.

-Mod

[Manito]

What do I really want to accomplish? I'm showing quite clearly that you pushed a case with no reasonable support for your case, and I think that pretty clearly shows that you're scum. You're more interested in lynching anyone you can build momentum on, and not in who might actually be scum given the supporting evidence. The fact that you continue to dodge questions about it just because it's in the past is both hypocritical (because you're refusing to respond to the case against you right now) and also damning because ultimately, you can't defend yourself because you have nothing to support your defense. You dug a hole for yourself on D1.5, and you've tried to cover it - but it's there now and everyone can see it.

[SpyreX]

I'm gonna go ahead and reply to some of these cases because getting to see them again all together..is awesome.

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you wanted fl kept around to confuse us for the next lynch, and the next, and the next.

This is a lame defense and comes off to me as you thinking forbiddanlight was scum merely because she was confusing.

I dont think that people who really read what he said can say he thinks she scum because she's confusing. Its pretty clear that he saying that leaving her will confuse the issue for the rest of the game.

It's basically a pile of one-liners. Only once do you refer to a genuine post you've made, and your so-called case is just a shoddy, one-liner PBPA. That's not a case, that's a PBPA, and trying to pass it off as one is a lie. And only scum need to lie.
LYNCH ALL LIARS

The last time I checked, lynch all liars does not apply merely because you disagree over what something is. Major self-contradictions (e.g. claiming to be a vigilante, then a vanilla townie) will usually trigger LAL, and there's probably other things that will set it off too, but I see this as a stretch and an excuse.

A joke is a joke, for pete's sake.

FaerieLord, that is the crux of my whole case against you - no town should ever actively seek to lynch town, or have a motive to lynch town - as LlamaFluff said, its still one more body in the Mafia's way. By admitting you wanted to lynch forbiddan as town, you merely confirm your scumminess.

Unless I misquoted you (and you should really avoid posting your opinions in other people's quote boxes, even if you set them off—harder to read and make out what's yours or not), this and the first set of quotes don't make sense together to me. Could you please explain?

Again, not sure whats so hard about this. KoC thought FL was scum, but in the event she was town, her loss wouldn't be a bad one because she was playing badly.

Relooking at the above, especially considering KoC was getting heat from other avenues, really just reinforces my you jumping on bandwagons. If you REALLY want I'll do the same your other set but I'm still groggy from a long night so dont feel like repeating myself.

Your turn.

After KoC's amazing scummove there I may be willing to shift FL back tomorrow for KoC - I dont think FS is going to be negotiable.

Other players I'd be more than happy to give the rope to:
1.) FL - for reasons stated over and over again (and notice the absence of real talking so far today).
2.) KoC - he's been diggin' a hole and I could really see the lynch.
3.) K7 - K7, enough said. I think the time will come soon enough when he's going to have to go.

We've got, I think, three people we all suspect: FS, FL, Koc. (And I do K7, but I digress). Regardless of the order or what, its safe to say we're going to be pushing heavily on those three and instead of being cross-working on lynches as a unit well, helps.

I can dig not "setting" them up but unless someone decides to really up the scum-level I will not shed a tear on FS, FL, KoC, or K7 at this point. If there's not one scum in there (much less 2) i'd be really, really surprised.

Ok...

I know I promised a reread, but honestly, I haven't had it in me for this game. This one is slogging along and it needs a boot.

Look at the last few pages - we've spent more time and actual effort figuring out FaerieLords alignment than actually looking for scum. Or doing anything. Hell, at this point I miss the unwarranted finger-pointing and whatever else.

So, if I really really need to, I'll do something by ohh Fridayish on at least two of my suspects. But, in the meantime lets DO something constructive like just up and turbolynch someone. Anyone. At this point it could be me and I wouldn't care - some would be bad lynches but really I wouldn't even try and stop it.

We need to do something to knock ourselves out of the doldrums.

So no I didn't build a huge case on KoC. His actions that day were retarded and I made it clear I'd hammer anyone to get the game moving. I DID.

No, it is not scummy you were wrong about Firestarter being scum because you dedicated a post to his scumminess and convinced us to hammer him. You did no such post on Knight of Cydonia—you simply went "Yeah, he's scummy, and I'm not worried about the quick wagon" and proceeded to put him out of his misery even though the wagon gave you reason to believe that Knight of Cydonia was town.

I cant believe I didn't catch this before. I hammered KoC and the next DAY I said that with the speed of the wagon I wasn't suprirsed.
And stop with the "KoC was town" - the wagon

gave me reason to suspect he

might

not be scum.

Those are not the same things. I do not feel at this moment explaining the deep psychological difference, but its there.

Get out of tunnel vision land.

Says the black hole to the kettle.

Llama, I know you're startin to get the itch. You can see that hammer sitting there, whispering to you, telling you sweet nothings. Give into it. GIVE INTO THE POWER.

[SpyreX]

thanks for being a helper. I'm REALLY GLAD you came back

[somestrangeflea]

A post by killa seven, a non-player, has been deleted.

[SpyreX]

<3 SSF again. I thought you were playin with my emotions there

[StrangerCoug]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you wanted fl kept around to confuse us for the next lynch, and the next, and the next.

This is a lame defense and comes off to me as you thinking forbiddanlight was scum merely because she was confusing.

I dont think that people who really read what he said can say he thinks she scum because she's confusing. Its pretty clear that he saying that leaving her will confuse the issue for the rest of the game.

It's basically a pile of one-liners. Only once do you refer to a genuine post you've made, and your so-called case is just a shoddy, one-liner PBPA. That's not a case, that's a PBPA, and trying to pass it off as one is a lie. And only scum need to lie.
LYNCH ALL LIARS

The last time I checked, lynch all liars does not apply merely because you disagree over what something is. Major self-contradictions (e.g. claiming to be a vigilante, then a vanilla townie) will usually trigger LAL, and there's probably other things that will set it off too, but I see this as a stretch and an excuse.

A joke is a joke, for pete's sake.

I believe I've implied that my sense of humor is not the best, and I actually interpreted that post as an intent to get the person lynched for lying.

FaerieLord, that is the crux of my whole case against you - no town should ever actively seek to lynch town, or have a motive to lynch town - as LlamaFluff said, its still one more body in the Mafia's way. By admitting you wanted to lynch forbiddan as town, you merely confirm your scumminess.

Unless I misquoted you (and you should really avoid posting your opinions in other people's quote boxes, even if you set them off—harder to read and make out what's yours or not), this and the first set of quotes don't make sense together to me. Could you please explain?

Again, not sure whats so hard about this. KoC thought FL was scum, but in the event she was town, her loss wouldn't be a bad one because she was playing badly.

Very well then.

Relooking at the above, especially considering KoC was getting heat from other avenues, really just reinforces my you jumping on bandwagons. If you REALLY want I'll do the same your other set but I'm still groggy from a long night so dont feel like repeating myself.

Go ahead. The more discussion, the merrier, contrary to what you seem to think.

Other players I'd be more than happy to give the rope to:
1.) FL - for reasons stated over and over again (and notice the absence of real talking so far today).
2.) KoC - he's been diggin' a hole and I could really see the lynch.
3.) K7 - K7, enough said. I think the time will come soon enough when he's going to have to go.

1. I'm not going to bother with FaerieLord unless you want to.
2. Have we covered this "hole", so we don't run around in circles?
3. You're still being vague here, and you have refused to answer me about why you suspect killa seven.

Ok...

I know I promised a reread, but honestly, I haven't had it in me for this game. This one is slogging along and it needs a boot.

Look at the last few pages - we've spent more time and actual effort figuring out FaerieLords alignment than actually looking for scum. Or doing anything. Hell, at this point I miss the unwarranted finger-pointing and whatever else.

So, if I really really need to, I'll do something by ohh Fridayish on at least two of my suspects. But, in the meantime lets DO something constructive like just up and turbolynch someone. Anyone. At this point it could be me and I wouldn't care - some would be bad lynches but really I wouldn't even try and stop it.

We need to do something to knock ourselves out of the doldrums.

So no I didn't build a huge case on KoC. His actions that day were retarded and I made it clear I'd hammer anyone to get the game moving. I DID.

If the case is there, then good.

No, it is not scummy you were wrong about Firestarter being scum because you dedicated a post to his scumminess and convinced us to hammer him. You did no such post on Knight of Cydonia—you simply went "Yeah, he's scummy, and I'm not worried about the quick wagon" and proceeded to put him out of his misery even though the wagon gave you reason to believe that Knight of Cydonia was town.

I cant believe I didn't catch this before. I hammered KoC and the next DAY I said that with the speed of the wagon I wasn't suprirsed.

Well, I'll be damned—I mistook one of CF Riot's posts as yours. I'm glad we've been looking at this case again, though.

And stop with the "KoC was town" - the wagon

gave me reason to suspect he

might

not be scum.

Those are not the same things. I do not feel at this moment explaining the deep psychological difference, but its there.

Give me a heads up if and when we do, since nothing new seems to be coming out of this otherwise.

Get out of tunnel vision land.

Says the black hole to the kettle.

Says the madman who is trying to cut off discussion on me in favor of my mislynch.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm showing quite clearly that you pushed a case with no reasonable support for your case, and I think that pretty clearly shows that you're scum.

So getting a wagon to a deadline lynch is not reasonable support? Does the same logic make you scum for having pushed FL for a long time without enough support for a lynch? You pushing me right now without getting me lynched? I dont see how this point works at all.

You're more interested in lynching anyone you can build momentum on, and not in who might actually be scum given the supporting evidence.

Yes of course! Thats why I started my own cases, I was looking for an easy lynch. Would of been pretty foolish of me to go after K7 and FL if I wanted an easy lynch now wouldnt it of been?

The fact that you continue to dodge questions about it just because it's in the past is both hypocritical (because you're refusing to respond to the case against you right now) and also damning because ultimately, you can't defend yourself because you have nothing to support your defense.

You have nothing to support your attack. Right now you are saying I am scum (checks notes, this keeps changing it seems). Ah yes. For 1) Pushing Corin *to a lynch* with little support, and 2) Pushing easy cases. I honestly dont know what you want me defending against here.

I really would rather be lynching manito then SC today.

[armlx]

I currently am sorta busy and am not sure if I'll have time before Wednesday to read the posts from this weekend.

[StrangerCoug]

Hmm... I'd expect SpyreX would respond to my most recent points by now.

LlamaFluff, what is your opinion of SpyreX?

[LlamaFluff]

LlamaFluff, what is your opinion of SpyreX?

I have him as pretty town still, maybe because I partially feel he is getting attacked for reasons similar to me, that being just being wrong with suspicions. In short I dont see me voting for him today, and if it came down to you or him, I would be voting you without too much hesitation.

Manito is still the play to me.

[SpyreX]

I believe I've implied that my sense of humor is not the best, and I actually interpreted that post as an intent to get the person lynched for lying.

And the first part? Its not just misinterpreting a joke or misreading what they are saying - its the fact the misinterpretations allow you to toss on a vote with justification.

1. I'm not going to bother with FaerieLord unless you want to.
2. Have we covered this "hole", so we don't run around in circles?
3. You're still being vague here, and you have refused to answer me about why you suspect killa seven.

This was brought up to show that yes, in fact, I did have reason to suspect KoC.

But, sure. I'll bite.

1.) Read what I've said all along about FL. I am not regurgitating that here again right now.
2.) "...So let me get this straight: we vote FS, lynch him, and then CF et al will throw their weight behind the FL case, and possibly the K7 case as well?
That's a fair enough offer, I suppose. Firestarter has been getting along quite nicely whilst teh FL and K7 cases dominated, mostly, but the case against him is good enough. I'd probably have gone for him after K7 and FL, maybe put him joint third with Llama... I'll play along, on the guarantee of that FL lynch.
unvote; Vote Firestarter"
That was the beginning of the end. It was far too opportunistic to ignore.
3.) Maybe its the multiple pages I spent arguing with arm about how K7 contributes as much as a fart in the wind and it serves as an awesome way to just keep draggin' along and explain away any and all chance of being nightkilled. Something like that.

Says the madman who is trying to cut off discussion on me in
favor of my mislynch.

Mad like a fox.

Ok, I know the hammer is scary. It can be a frightening thing. You wonder to yourself "am I going to be losing this game" - the answer is no, young lads! Buck up to the table!

I've given you every reason to be behind this -
If you are town and you think SC is scum, well.
If you are town and you think I am scum pushing a mislynch I've handed myself to you on a platter!
If you are scum and SC is scum, why not score some town points with a bus!
If you are scum and I am scum, well we get to eat one more townie before I burn!
If you are scum and we're both town.. come on, I've given plenty of escape routes tomorrow!
If you are scum and we're both scum - help a brotha out by gettin one of the hombres killed to move it forward and make the other look clean!

So, be a hero, whomever you are. Just say you agree with me and drop that sweet, sweet hammer! Time is running out, only YOU can be a bad enough dude to save the president.

[StrangerCoug]

I think the hammer scares everybody, but it has to be thrown down by somebody.

Other than that, nothing new, so no further comment.

[Manito]

@Mod - you might want to remove killa seven from the non-voting player status list

[orangepenguin]

For the people voting Spyrex, if one of you hammer, and SC flips town, then Spyrex is obviously scum (or is town who has been leading us to a bunch of mislynches). If SC flip town though, would you re-vote spyrex?

[SpyreX]

I like how its me and not the players playing like scummy scum scums.

I want BLOOD. GIVE IT TO ME.

[armlx]

Hmm. I have become aware that K7's meta actually implies his behavior in this game is indicative of scum him. Compare Shaft.ed's Monty Python Mafia and Mafia 76 (Cephrir's one) where he is reasonable and not too aggressive when attacked, to Random 3 and farside22's mini game, where the opposite is true.

[SpyreX]

Thats fine and can be dealt with after SC bleeds.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok, I am seeming to not be running into anyone saying manito is town here with what I am pushing, and seem to be getting some acceptance on my case. That leaves me wondering why I am the only person who is voting for him right now. So what are peoples opinions on manito and would you consider moving your vote to him today?

[orangepenguin]

I think SC is the better lynch. Not changing my vote, nor does it look like anyone else is, atm.

[LlamaFluff]

I think SC is the better lynch.

Why? You have been pretty quiet for putting out suspicions as of late.

[orangepenguin]

Eh, I just don't buy the case against Manito. I think Spyrex MIGHT be scum, but he presents good cases (even though the FS one proved false, so if the SC does too, then, well, I am voting him, of course), so I am not positive. I think SC is the most likely to flip scum. If he doesn't, then I am going with my first pick, Spyrex. IF SC flips scum, then I won't go after spyrex. I don't think he'd put that much effort into bussing a partner, if SC flipped scum, so I would completely take Spyrex off my radar.

I'd look at Manito tomorrow. I am just not sold/convinced at all, to be short and simple.

[SpyreX]

I've given too much Llama. This has to happen. I am the Alpha. You need to be my Omega.

[LlamaFluff]

I've given too much Llama. This has to happen. I am the Alpha. You need to be my Omega.

That sounds like a REALLY bad pickup line.

I am not going to just let my case go either though, this will be the second day I have been pushing him and I let it go way to easily the first time.

[SpyreX]

I know, but I've staked my very LIFE on this.

Besides, think of the wonderful ball of yarn that starts to untwine either way based on this.