Mini 679 - BSG: The Basestar (Game Over!)

[Elmo]

Vote: Tarhalindur

Quick, bus someone!

[Elmo]

KingEnigma: So if you don't random vote, how do you generally get games going when you don't know anyone well? mith tends to ask questions, poke at people, and so on; I've contemplated not random voting before, but it seems clear that something has to set the ball rolling. Do you just rely on everyone else random voting?

[Elmo]

Sure. But you don't seem to have asked any questions yet.. I'm curious to see this in action. Maybe I'm missing something?

[Elmo]

I don't think I'm being impatient; in the 'model game' for not random voting, Newbie 465, people ask questions in their first post, even if it's as basic as "are you scum?" - and I can't see any reason to delay doing that. Definitely, if I were not-random-voting, I'd have asked a question or two by now, so I'm curious.

[Elmo]

Grimmy: Yeah, I wasn't sure if you were serious with that part.
KingEnigma: Oh, I didn't mean that I

wanted

you to ask people questions, I was just curious about why you hadn't.

[Elmo]

andersonw: No - but then I wouldn't tell you if I was, would I? Oh, the tangled webs we weave..

I don't get why people would just vote someone, wait a bit, unvote, and then stare at each other, saying "the random stage is over". That's like some kind of mystical good luck ritual - you have to take it a little further than that for things to happen, yeah? That said, KingEnigma doesn't random vote, fine, but he also doesn't appear motivated to do anything to get the game going, so

unvote

:

Tarhalindur

,

vote

:

KingEnigma

. Might go to Timeater.

[Elmo]

If you believed random voting was a good way to start the game, and you random voted, you would be trying to move the game forward. You don't, which is fine; you said in 27 that you ask people questions, poke at people, etc instead. But you're not doing that. The implication is that you're not interested in moving the game forward.

I also think we're seeing some rather interesting reactions.

Might you possibly elaborate on that? Whose is the most interesting?

[Elmo]

Iam: I don't think there's

undue

pressure on him to make information happen. I don't support the view that all one needs to do is random vote, but I don't see that opinion as scummy. 41 looks like criticism of the random stage, the last part asking people about it; but I think he said it's pointless, so why ask about it? Why are you speaking up for him, pray tell? (Also.. preferred shortening of your name? )

Fark: Not random voting is null. As far as I know, his meta is that he asks questions (etc) instead; I count not doing (or delaying) that as a small scumtell. Do you follow my train of thought, here?

I want to vote for Elmo, but thats mostly because Elmo hurt my feelings....but I may get over it, but it'll take time.

I'm curious to know what a "zen approach" is, though.

[Elmo]

I have a fanboy. Awesome.

I also have a cold or something. Bleah. I'll get back to you on that mafia thing.

[Elmo]

I'm still on the Enigma wagon. I don't see how he's being helpful and

I think he specifically posts things in a confusing manner

.

Really? Which, and why would he do that?

I haven't read Fark - Time in detail, but I don't feel either of them is a good home for my vote right now. Timeater seems slightly nervey, but nothing major.. Fark seems fine. Rishi, which of Timeater's specific arguments do you agree with? I feel we need to hear from

unvote

;

vote

:

ChannelDelibird

a bit more, right now.

[Elmo]

18. Prods must be responded to

in thread

.
19. If you don't reply to your prod within 48 hours you will be replaced.

His last post is Oct 5th; he was prodded Oct 9th. Given he hasn't responded to it, I would surmise he's being replaced.
Timeater, I didn't mean nervous for you, I meant relative to average; I take your point, though, I don't feel it means anything.
Macavity: Do you generally find that kind of contradiction a reliable scumtell?

[Elmo]

So does anyone have a read on Tar yet? (

*continues slacking*

)

[Elmo]

I'm sorry, I didn't quite catch that?

[Elmo]

Hey, Iam. I'm thinking maybe no lynch. You follow?

[Elmo]

Hi, I'll post something tomorrow. For now, I'm curious to see if anyone else figured why.

[Elmo]

My no lynch thing was a failed conversation starter, I addressed it to Iam to be faux-conspiratorial and see who'd ask about it... Fark asking is townish. And we can't possibly lynch my fanboy, veneration of Elmo is pro-town. I'm in a foul mood, can we kill people yet? Somebody get me a good wagon. (Vote stays for no apparent reason.)

[Elmo]

^ kill plz

FoS

:

Tarhalindur

[Elmo]

Um. Maybe tangentally, but not really, no.

[Elmo]

Because the way I read it, you're saying two contradictory things in just 4 words. Which is impressive.

Thanks, I try to be concise.

Is there a reason for that FoS?

Yes.

You know, people generally have REASONS for saying things.

An astute observation.



I'm not feeling particularly helpful, no.

[Elmo]

Recaltricient = recalcitrant + reticent? I like it.

The contrived OMGUS makes me feel happy, though.

[Elmo]

I don't think you actually believe it's scummy.

[Elmo]

I understand what you said.

I don't believe you.

[Elmo]

What smacks of scuminess about it?

You're not allowed to attack me without much explanation, remember. So clearly there needs to be much explanation coming from you.

[Elmo]

Are you even TRYING?

I imagine I'm very trying.

[Elmo]

Oh, it wasn't to do with that. Tar said he was suspicious of me for being lurky (probably wrong, but understandable) but didn't follow it up. forbiddanlight is pretty sure Tim is scum based on a case that seems relatively weak to me when Tim's the popular wagon.

I'm not feeling like being helpful. Maybe I'll be helpful tomorrow. I don't believe her because I'm trying very hard to think of a way that my posts might be viewed as genuinely scummy, and I'm not coming up with anything... I almost always understand why people are suspicious of me whenever they (genuinely) are. It seems unnatural, I could imagine her being annoyed, maybe amused, but not genuinely suspicious. (I think I understand your position, though, odd as it sounds.)

OMG, it's a esnopser sdrawkcab!

[Elmo]

Act like what?

[Elmo]

Have you considered that I might be feeling unhelpful?

[Elmo]

Well, quite. I'd understand a degree of confusion, but I really don't follow why you'd think I'm scum because of it.

[Elmo]

Oh, I see.

Are you usually anti-town when you're scum?

[Elmo]

Unvote

:

forbiddanlight

,

vote

:

Tarhalindur

. 291 is terrible.

* I didn't show why then because I didn't understand how it could be contradictory, and he'd provide detail if he cared.
* I don't see what more detail on the FoS is needed: if you genuinely thought my lurking was scummy, you'd follow it up; you didn't. I think you were creating an avenue to throw suspicion on me later, so could push my lynch if it became convenient without looking opportunistic. On a basic level, I'm very surprised you said it out loud; if I was scum, I'd immediately stop lurking, you wouldn't have any kind of tell, and I know you're smart enough to see that. It seems to be more rhetorical than anything.
* That's a difference of stated opinion, not misrepresentation. I thought my vote being on her was a major factor in her attitude towards me. That's OMGUS.
* Like I already said, I think anyone pushing "OMG SO ANTI-TOWN MUST LYNCH" from a few hours of bored posting is far more likely to be scum looking for an easy lynch than genuinely suspicious. If I wanted to not do anything, I'd just lurk. I could maaaybe see her OMGUS-ing, but I think the way you jumped on it is awful.
* There is no double standard because, uh, what it says - he's said people should give reasons, so he should give reasons. I haven't said anything on that note.
* I'm not dodging the question, it's self-evident that I wasn't trying. That was the whole point of what she's been posting. This attack strikes me as disingenuous.
* You hadn't posted since I FoSsed you - exactly what follow-up are you looking for? Predictably, I don't buy your excuse. I think you'd have been far more poky at me if you thought I was scum, considering the game you're so keen to reference.
* I'd like you to justify the idea that I wouldn't have played like that if I were town. It seems quite probable to me.
* Your assertion we should be policy lynching me

even if I was confirmed innocent

for a relatively useless 9 hours of play is probably the scummiest thing in the game thus far. How can you possibly expect anyone to buy that?

Reasoning I can extract from 200:
* Tim sidestepped Tar's question in 83 with an attack. I think his answer there is reasonable; there was little to go on at the time. I don't agree with but don't have a problem with the attack, I can imagine Tar's demeanour there being off-putting.
* Tim's post 104 is attacking Fark for bad reasons, which is OMGUS and deflection. I haven't found anything specific about what's bad in this post, and I don't see anything objectionable. If I remember correctly, he's expressed suspicion of Fark before, so I don't think it's opportunistic.
* A strawman in 121. He's not strawmanning, he even said "please clarify if that's not what you meant". I had a similar reaction to his, but discarded it after some thought.
* Bad reasons for a vote. I am guessing this is 146 instead of 154. To a limited extent, I can see what you mean about "anyone but me", but I think that attitude is null (and it logically should be). He admits in the same post that it's a lazy-but-safe vote, so I have even less of a problem with it, I could easily see a townie doing the same thing.

Possibly (probably?) I'm missing something. I imagine you'll say OMG YOU'RE STRAWMANNING/OVERSIMPLIFYING. No, that's just how I read your post, correct me if you're inclined. It's somewhat hard to figure out which of 200 is 'core reasoning' and which are just small observations. But basically, I have a very vague weak town read on Tim and nothing anyone's posted has changed my mind; the case seems somewhat like weak agreement with the majority opinion. No-one seems to scrutinize people as long as they're agreeing with you, heh. I find that somewhat scummy.

By process of elimination and eenie meenie minie mo, I'm okay with lynching Tarhalindur, forbiddanlight, Grimmy or KingEnigma. I am going to deeply enjoy watching TarScum fail at justifying a Flask lynch. Hey, Awesome Pants, what do you think of lynch all lurkers, right now?

[Elmo]

He's not strawmanning in 121. You cannot seriously believe he said "Fark was saying he was deliberately remaining neutral on the wagon so he could follow people's votes" there.

If you're town, you're 0% likely to be scum; a random person is much more likely. In KingEnigma's case, he might think it's quite high. It's always better for them to be lynched than you. It doesn't matter whether it's good play or not if townies are still liable to do it. The fact he was up-front about his vote being lazy makes it much easier to call him out on it later if it leads to a mislynch; scum are reluctant to do that.

But my observations are more sound than you seem to be giving them credit for. As far as I can tell, you are just dismissing every scumtell in the book because you think Tim is town and want to OMGUS me.

Your reasoning is backwards. I don't believe he's dropped any scumtells, which is a pre-requisite for believing he's town. I'm not giving your observations as much credit as you do because I disagree with you. Sidenote, I'm fairly sure you have no business calling my attack on you OMGUS, given I killplz'd you before you attacked me.

Lol wut? So we shouldn't lynch anti town people?

Intentional or not, this is a strawman; my point was the disparity between the strength of what I did and you/Tar's stated bloodlust. I think anyone pushing something relatively minor that hard is more likely to be scum looking for an easy lynch than town genuinely trying to find scum. Or would you say what I did was an extremely strong tell?

I personally think the burden of proof is on you. I've never played with you, so I have to use baseline scumtells. Guess what, you are filling them.

That was addressed to Tar. This doesn't work: If I say that I think making posts like 200 is a scumtell, and the burden of proof's on you to show you'd do that as town - well, if you're town, you would do that, because... you would. You cannot say "a priori X is scummy, Elmo is doing X, therefore Elmo is scum", you need to show both that X is scummy generally and that me doing X here is scummy in this specific situation.

I remain curious as to what scumtells I'm supposed to have dropped other than being bored, or indeed (really) any explanation of why what I did was scummy beyond you thinking it's anti-town.

[Elmo]

This is going to degenerate into multi-page quote war posts, isn't it? Oh dear.

[Elmo]

Flask is .

1) TarScum would be different here. The playerlist was probably more intimidating in Satin Doll; the flow of the game is different, too, it got off to a good start and was actually pretty tricky to do a damn thing as scum in that game. Here, not so much.
2) The KE thing was, unfortunately, the best thing going at that point. I feel it's valid albeit really weak. This game seems to suffer from invitational syndrome, you kind of do what you have to on page two.
3) MacavityLock seems townish if guarded to me. Apparently it's like his second game. I'll read.

He says he can't imagine why Elmo-town might act like this; I can think of one protown explanation for Elmo's actions and one neutral one, and the suggestion of policy lynching nearly always pings my scumdar.

I KNOW, RIGHT? I'm thinking surely anyone past a raw newbie can come up with those two.

[Elmo]

I am going to deeply enjoy watching TarScum fail at justifying a Flask lynch.

I may have been wrong about Tim/Flask.

FoP is looking bettter than Timeater.

In other news, Flask of Pestilence has compensated enough for Timeater to make me want to Unvote.

.::] Vote Count [::.

Flask of Pestilence (1)

- Tarhalindur

[Elmo]

The key thing here is that Tar/FL's behaviour is deeply unnatural. I was baiting, but I was careful to select something that's fairly obviously null. That's why I reacted the way I did; you can see it pretty easily in retrospect, as Rishi did. (Both of the Flask pair probably know me well enough to figure it out instantly.)

Then, when Tar jumped on the case, Elmo was all like, "Ha! I was being scummy on purpose and you fell for it! I caught you, scum."

No, my point was the opposite. It wasn't scummy, but he jumped on it anyway, and someone genuine wouldn't have. I believe only you and Tar know me; the fact that Tar

does

know me, indeed saw my play as scum up close in Satin Doll, yet chose to push ElmoScum regardless is a further point against him. He even brought up a meta reference about me from there, right?

There is a lack of discussion of "FL pushing ProbTown Timeater's lynch for crappy reasons". If (for reasons passing understanding) you're unconvinced by her behaviour towards me, look there. Her behaviour of "replace in, make a few comments about the game, hop onto a popular wagon" is fairly canonical scum. I've said why I think her reasons are bad. Also, FL is obviously backing off Flask because she was only on there for the soft, popular target that was Timeater. Mumbling something about being busy is a crap excuse to avoid failing hard at justifying her stance in the manner that Tar will shortly exemplify. No, really, kill please.

I really do think that lynching anyone other than Tar, FL or maybe MacavityLock (I need to read him in depth) is a weak lynch, unless someone wants to make a better case or I've overlooked something. I could settle for it to avoid a no lynch, but I demand that we kill actual suspicious people today, please.

[Elmo]

Ugh, why do I keep forgetting to post this? I think Tar's bussing tendencies are best dealt with simply by not ruling anything out... if I were in his shoes, I'd seriously consider going strongly the other way and rampantly defending a buddy early, hoping the meta from Satin Doll (perhaps a fairly widely read game, I don't know) would swing it the other way.

Maybe Tar and FL are both scum, but different factions, I don't know. I don't think I want to step into the minefield of drawing anything solid from "Tar is strongly attacking/defending ___, they must/must not be scum together". I would be very skittish about following that reasoning.

[Elmo]

Unvote, Vote Elmo (wait, I was already doing that :S)

No, you were voting KingEnigma because he's an easier lynch than me or Flask. =)

[Elmo]

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Elmo]

So like from memory: andersonw, Awesome Pants, iamausername, Rishi, KingEnigma all have yet to justify their votes. Quite possibly I am forgetting stuff (Iam?) but the mind kind of boggles at the first two.

[Elmo]

My (latest) problem is more that you can make posts the length of 343 to defend yourself but refuse to clarify your case on anyone, even with so much as a sentence. I still have only a fuzzy idea of why you originally suspected Timeater. I don't think you've attempted to say why you suspect me other than "you were scummy". Actually, I strongly feel that if you were town, you'd have left your vote on me, most likely said you were too busy to make a full case but said a sentence or two about your suspicions. The reason you haven't is simply that you don't have anything else you can throw at me, and going over the laziness merely reinforces how ridiculous your stance is.

The pattern seems obvious to me. You jumped onto the leading wagon, Timeater, for reasons that are either very weak or unclear to me, you jumped onto me for reasons I consider scummy and opportunistic, and then you jumped to KingEnigma for no stated reason. You've been on the perceived EasyWagon all game, only moving back to me when you were called out for the move to KE.

You still have not given a single reason other than being lazy for voting me, despite saying that you had lots. Have you explained why you voted KingEnigma, yet?

---

Get well soon, Timeater.

[Elmo]

Condolences, Rishi.

Fakeclaim. Yawn. Nonetheless my most recent game leads me to

unvote Tarhalindur, vote forbiddanlight

who claims now, please.

p.s. I'm not voting you for being anti-town, as you well know.

[Elmo]

Okay, let's make it interesting. A hypothetical Cylon who is not knowingly part of an informed minority (i.e. is not definitely scum) should claim that fact (and only that fact) now. In fact, I think we should have a limited mass claim, whereby we post one of the following:
1) To the best of my knowledge, I am not a cylon.
2) I am a cylon, but I have no reason to believe I am part of an informed minority.
A mafia game is defined primarily as a struggle between an uninformed majority and an informed minority. For this purpose, something like a mason pair is

not

an informed minority. forbiddanlight would be posting #2 based on what she has said; I'm going to tentatively

unvote

:

forbiddanlight

pending this.

To the best of my knowledge, I am not a cylon.

Flask: Do you want me to say what I am thinking? I am thinking a lot. (Apparently we have this psychic thing going, so guess.) I dislike

something

about post 399 very much.
Tarhalindur and forbiddanlight: Please state or paraphrase

every

piece of information in your role PM. Don't get modkilled. Tar goes first.

Removed

tags. See Rule 6. - desMod

[Elmo]

• I still kind of really want to kill Tar. For some reason. FL less so. Same vibe as c_d's fakeclaim in S&S2. That can't be good.
  
• If Flask is scum, I'll eat my hat. Or.. just be really freaked out. I suppose I should really reread him. :effort:
  
• Fark, anderson, grimmy, and Pants need to do the limited-claim thing.
  
• Rishi: I don't understand how saying essentially "I want to kill FL; I am suspicious of Tar" is gauging reactions. It seems the opposite, stating an opinion without regard to how it's perceived. I have no idea how it's supposed to be scummy.
  
• I need to metagame FL. Games to read: Open 81, Mini 635, Open 92 (again), Mini 630, Mini 628, Open 83, Mini 626. I am just being lazy and putting this here instead of bookmarking it or something.
  
• My suspicions are kind of doing a cartwheel right now. I want to get this limited-claim done and then have a good long think.

This is really weird. (No shit, Sherlock.)

[Elmo]

forbiddanlight - cylon
Flask of Pestilence - cylon
Rishi - not cylon
iamausername - not cylon
Tarhalindur - human (full claim)
Elmo - not cylon
MacavityLock - cylon

I believe.

I feel this was necessary to (very probably) establish that there are non-scum cylons. What do you believe

is

a good idea to say, Pants?

[Elmo]

Addendum:
forbiddanlight - D'Anna Biers, Cylon (full claim)
Tarhalindur - Kara Thrace, Human (full claim)

[Elmo]

Or did I miss something?

Possibly; Tar first, though.

Pretty sure he's due for a prod. *ModPMs*

[Elmo]

Hi, Camn. I don't think anyone wants to massclaim at this point.
Tar: Forgive me if I'm being exacting, but I'm pretty sure you're still missing or glossing over certain things. Yes, I have a reason.
Rishi: I said that I didn't understand how it could be gauging reactions, which is what you said originally. I still don't, or see how "kill plz" could be scummy... you've just sort of said "you can't do that!". Well, I did - why am I more likely to be scum because of it?
andersonw: What do you think of Iam's play? Flask's stance on Macavity? Tar's jump onto me?

[Elmo]

andersonw

: Yeah, I posed a couple.

camn

: No-one wants to massclaim. But 10/12 have claimed whether or not they are a cylon. Five cylons, five humans. My working assumption was cylons = scum. Cylons infiltrating the humans is natural for the theme, right? But that is clearly not true.

Knight of Cydonia

: Hello again!

I'll probably get a reread in today and pick someone to lynch using my Magic Eight-Ball (TM).

[Elmo]

It's a fairly uneventful game for the most part, I think, although I'll refresh my memory shortly... probably give you the guided tour. Hey, why'd you reckon the Cylons are scum?

[Elmo]

FOS: ELMO

for engineering this massclaim thing so early. I think it tells us much less than we think. . . and gives the scum a lot of targets.
Hopefully it will work out.

Um. Tar and FL were going to be lynched, which is why they full-claimed. No-one apart from them has claimed. We haven't massclaimed. No-one wants to massclaim right now. All we have done is claim

races

, which we need to know. Why do you say it gives the scum targets?

camn's refusal to claim whether or not she's a cylon leads me to believe something's up. That plus KE's general scumminess before dropping out

Please elaborate on both points. I don't like this post.

I am really struggling to give a shit, but I will reread nonetheless.

[Elmo]

K, I'm a cylon affiliated with the cylons. Do you want a name?

I have no idea if I'm town, scum, or what

, just that I don't know anyone elses alignment

This is why the cylons need to know. Certainly at least one cylon appears to have believed they were nominally scum, which would obviously hurt our scumhunting. The humans need to know because it's natural to assume cylons = scum. Specifically, if I had seen "FL was lynched, she was a cylon", I would have thought she was definitely scum. It should be evident why I need to know that is not necessarily the case.

I strongly suspect that revealing race does not leak any information that would harm the town. I am not willing to go into this further at present.

Why do you say it gives the scum targets, camn? What do you mean by that?

[Elmo]

I find it hard to think of a definitely 'safe' way to assess the model claim. I'm.. pretty neutral on it. I remain firmly on the fence regarding Macavity, too, mostly because I still haven't reread yet - I was terribly busy doing sweet fuck all. :effort:

Tar is lurking. Answer my perfectly reasonable question already.

[Elmo]

My argument isn't anything, at the moment. By default, an action isn't scummy. There needs to be some reason as to why it is; I can't think of one, and I don't believe you've put forth one. I don't see this as particularly useful, but I'll answer as long as you're asking.

The problem was also in the degree of the reaction. Tar's post was pure hyperbole. I would definitely look more favourably on "Elmo, that's scummy" rather than OMG MUST KILL. There is also the fact he latched onto what FL was saying, which is part of the reason I wanted to lynch him over her.

I am okay with a lurker lynch, but I should point out that, being a lurker, he might not be around to claim before deadline. I imagine he'll end up getting replaced.

[Elmo]

Problem: Flask is obv town.

[Elmo]

Aren't there, like, a zillion copies of any given model?

[Elmo]

Also, I just got hit by the obvious stick. If someone's lying about being a cylon, that means we have non-cylon scum. It also means they have some tactical reason to lie. That's important to note. I think that would basically torpedo "all scum are cylons", faction or no. That is also really weird.

If it wasn't obvious, I have been and will for the foreseeable future be lynching people on behaviour rather than flavour, unless something really convincing turns up. I am inclined to believe both Fark and Flask (heh) are town, so unless there is some kind of provable contradiction, I'm going with duplicates for the present.

[Elmo]

<1a> Attempting to use loopholes in the rules to gain an advantage in the game is considered jackassery, and will be treated as such. This applies to things like encrypted codes, invisible text, editing and deleting posts,

trying to use the structure of the role PM to gain an advantage

, etc. Please, use your common sense!

Tarhalindur and forbiddanlight: Please state or paraphrase

every

piece of information in your role PM. Don't get modkilled.

Pretty sure I didn't ask you anything about the structure of your role PM. Also pretty sure that specifically telling you to be careful about modkills and to paraphrase stuff as needed directly contradicts what you just posted.

[Elmo]

I'm a Centurion allied to Natalies/D'Anna (forbiddan)'s faction.

Was anyone else given this much information about their alignment?

Yo, forbiddanlight. To the extent you can, comment on this? It didn't sound like you *had* a faction. You just claimed you were affiliated with "the cylons", right? I don't understand how KoC can genuinely have this information if you don't have something comparable.

KoC is very definitely the odd one out at present.

o o

[Elmo]

A certain detail tugs at my mind:

Furthermore, the Centurions are unable to distinguish one copy of humanoid Cylon from another.

I don't understand KoC's distinction between "make" and "model". But I am wondering precisely how a centurion would be able to gain information about a humanoid cylon.

His ability is confirmable, though. Hmm. What would that even mean?

[Elmo]

Jeez, how loudly do I have to breadcrumb things? Surprised no-one picked up more on the fact that I said there were definitely two Cylon groups. I'll put it out there for the idiots.

I don't understand why you'd breadcrumb something and complain about people not immediately picking up on it. That seems to defeat the point of a breadcrumb. If you want to announce something.. just say it?

[Elmo]

Iam, can you really not think of any good reason why he might post something like that?

[Elmo]

The more I read about BSG on the Wiki makes it seem more and more possible, but with the limited amount of people in this game, im wondering why the mod would do so.

Mostly to punish people for being dumb, I'd imagine. As someone said, "There are many copies".

Minor FoS

: Everyone who jumped on Fark, especially Grimmy. This wagon sucks. Also, he's town, so no.

No lynch means we have one less cardflip to work with for the remainder of the game, relatively. This is why people generally no lynch as late as possible with an even number of people alive. I don't think it's disastrous, but I would prefer lynching someone to a no lynch. Albeit there seems to be a decent reason to keep like half the game alive, right now. Meh.

Macavity seems to be stepping it up a bit. Huh.
KoC, I remain curious as to why you'd complain about the breadcrumb being passed over.
One thing that bugged me about Tar was, as someone said.. that was bread. Why would you post that obviously if you wanted to keep it hidden? In my experience, power roles are usually more concerned with keeping hidden than breadcrumbing.
Rishi's recent movement is a little odd. I wonder if he's been using me - FL as a way of avoiding comment on other matters. I haven't really reread with an eye to that, though. Meh, day 2.
I would not be remotely surprised if KoC was scum at this point. Not the play, though.

I would strongly suggest that Macavity and/or Grimmy think about claiming. I do think one of them is the lynch, right now. I'll probably flip a coin tomorrow as to my vote.

[Elmo]

Oh! This double post wishes you a happy birthday, Fark.

[Elmo]

Given what you currently know, do you think Tarhalindur is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Considering that my role PM says I am town... um, no. Next question?

I would now like to point this out.

Macavity: Nothing's changed; I'm still on the fence about you. If I wasn't, I'd have voted you yesterday. I don't hugely disagree with Flask's case, but I don't interpret it as strong enough to want to lynch you for it, personally. The only reason I'd consider lynching you today is pretty much process of elimination; like I said, we've ruled out maybe half the game as lynch candidates today, and I don't want to lynch most of the rest.

Who do you think is a better lynch than you, and why?

I am going to take a punt and

vote

:

Grimmy

. I just feel Macavity'll be talking more tomorrow, and it's far easier to get a read on him than Grimmy. That, and the fact he's claimed power, and the fact that his claim looks much better than a fakeclaim from someone who's only finished one game.

Rishi is slightly weird. Iam is pretty weird. Tar and KoC are ultra weird. Meh, day 2.

[Elmo]

Oh, sure. And I dig that =)

The only reason I say that is because around half the time, I'll look back on a completed game and notice some really (with hindsight) obvious tell, and remember that I thought "hmm, that's weird" but never bothered to follow up on it. In particular, I don't have any real reason to believe Iam is town, but he's not getting any real scrutiny, certainly not to the degree that e.g. Fark is. If he's town, that's fine; if he's scum, it could be devastating in the long run. This kind of "I don't think he's scummy so I wouldn't bother looking at him closely" behaviour amplifies small errors into catastrophic ones.

[Elmo]

FL, why are you voting Fark?

I reiterate, this wagon sucks.

[Elmo]

I disapprove of an anderson lynch.

But I freely admit I am running out of ideas. I do believe there are certain circumstances in which it's reasonable to no lynch, I just have difficulty evaluating this because the consequences will only appear several days later.

[Elmo]

Okay, fine - no more Cylon claims, I'll just

go out tonight

and find out myself. Shame it's one shot.

If it makes anyone feel any better about switching to Fark from Mac - I'm scanning him. You can have your answers

tomorrow

.

..?

The deadline hits in twenty eight hours and seven minutes. At deadline, most votes is lynched. So no vote yet, I think.

[Elmo]

I don't understand why that mix-up would happen.

I could imagine you rereading, seeing Tar's claim and adjusting it to fit, though.

[Elmo]

Do you think he's lying, Iam? Why? You didn't seem to suspect him at all before now.

Unvote

:

Grimmy

. I think we should be lynching one of those two. I would lean towards disbelieving KoC, but I'm thinking perhaps Macavity is the smart lynch either way. This would seem a very odd gambit, and we'll know immediately if KoC's lying. I think the best-worst-case is mislynching Macavity and trading 1:1. C'est enteressant. But I can't get over how much KoC seems to know when the rest of us are fumbling around in the dark.

.::] Rules [::.

Voting, Lynching and Deaths

12. On death, a player's rolename, race and affiliation will be revealed.

I held back on this earlier, but unless this is close to a no reveal game, we need some way of knowing things about dead people. I originally noted the fact that race and affiliation were distinct; I would guess that affiliation is "sort of" like alignment. At least, I would imagine scum are inclined to lie about it.

Have both of you claimed/paraphrased your affiliation, yet? (I don't think Tar ever directly did so.)

[Elmo]

I'm probably turning in for the night. I suggest you both post your affiliations, and indeed every piece of information you possess in excruciating detail, and any arguments against each other you feel haven't been covered yet; I'll probably reread and vote tomorrow morning. I'm also going to throw out a

FoS

:

iamausername

here for no apparent reason.

Honestly, considering how this day has gone (and even in a vacuum), I struggle to think of a single reason KoC would be gambiting right now. But a whole bunch of things seem weird and inconsistent. But is there anything short of claiming scum that makes KoC the lynch over Macavity in this situation? (yawns) I'll sleep on it.

[Elmo]

Ah, those two noted. I do remember those now; I was thinking a little further back, but of course Pants was epic lurking until KoC hopped in.

The worst case of lynching KoC was that KoC was telling the truth and we've lynching a very-probably-innocent, albeit we still trade 1:1.
The worst case of lynching Macavity is that we lynch a roleblocker and trade 1:1.
Actually, I had forgotten Macavity claimed power for a minute, there. Hum. I suppose you're right, given that if one of them's scum, the other is very-probably-innocent and Macavity-town is a power role.

[Elmo]

Voted based purely on feelings is pro-town and made of win!

> >

EBWOP my last: By roleblocker, of course, I mean Macavity claimed jailkeeper. Fark is the one who claimed roleblocker. Needs more sleep.

I was going to say something but have no forgotten what it was. Ah, yes. I would like both you two to post a mini-summery of your suspicions, on everyone in the game, preferably with some kind of ranking. I would be content with anything down to a sentence per person, but odds on even if we lynch right, you're both dead by day 2. So time to contribute your thoughts.

It occurs to me to wonder about the chronology of when Macavity claimed jailkeeper vs. when KoC claimed essentially-guilty on him. Humma.

Zzz.

[Elmo]

One thing I should mention is that we may not know for sure that KoC is scum from the reveal of his rolename + affiliation. He may actually be a centurion, but scum, for example. Affiliation is less clear, since he hasn't claimed it, but I would not bet that he couldn't get away with claiming it truthfully at this point, even as scum. The idea of trivially knowing alignment once someone's dead is something I want to get away from; it may not be that simple.

If we lynch scum-KoC then Macavity is 99% dying anyway tonight. If we lynch Macavity-scum (and we would 100% know this because if the rolename) then KoC may or may not die. Certainly there are probably juicier targets. So what I said yesterday is not quite right.

I would not be remotely surprised if KoC is gambiting. From what little I know, that would be perfectly consistent.

I'm still having difficulty seeing why Macavity isn't the optimal lynch. Which is frustrating, because KoC's claim is full of holes.

[Elmo]

Mmmhm.

FoS

:

iamausername

FoS

:

Rishi

Unvote

:

No-one

,

vote

:

MacavityLock

[Elmo]

Flask, what do you think of 637?

[Elmo]

I've had kind of a conflicting read on Macavity. Mildly scummy to rather townish. I would currently say he was somewhat townish, albeit I'm underwhelmed with the PBPA, although obviously it was drawn up quickly. I don't have enough of a town read that I would stick my neck out, but I do have a pretty bad feeling about this lynch.

The thing I don't get, though, is why KoC would fake this. If Macavity's a jailkeeper, he's already outed, he can just be killed at night. So KoC would be dying essentially to force a specific day 1 mislynch. And I am completely at a loss as to why anyone would do that.

Sigh. So many unanswered questions. Time for some answers, I suppose; this should be fairly informative either way.

[Elmo]

Mafia Jailkeeper is odd. Although possible. Occam's razor suggests a) he was a RB and coached to claim jailkeeper or b) his real flavour lined up with jailkeeper enough that the correct fakeclaim was obvious. I admit to being very surprised he actually went through with posting a PBPA, that has the potential to be a goldmine.

The bigger question is "Was Tar bussing Macavity earlier"? I certainly remember really not liking the FoS/HoS/etc stuff.

Also, Rishi/Iam's reasons for jumping onto KoC yesterday were pretty awful. I would be staggered if there was no scum in {Tar, Rishi, Iam}. I should reread, I feel a little behind.

[Elmo]

Two scum groups implies two kills, and both would have to be missing. Various people's (Flask + KoC) flavour strongly implies there is a single scumgroup with the specific aim that we've been over. My working assumption is one scum group for the present; I think the mod's phrasing is designed to reinforce the "cylons are scum" idea.

What is still bugging me is Flask's assertion that there are only five cylons in the game when we have five claimed and one dead. As I said before, that would imply someone lying about being a cylon. The simplest explanation I can think of is that KoC does not actually count as a cylon for that purpose.

It occurs that I said a while back, it felt like Rishi was maneuvering around Macavity in the middle of the day by talking about me/FL instead. He feels a little weird.. I don't mind people being careful, but there's a sort of ultra-cautious, guarded style that's far more likely to come from scum, actually pretty characteristic of Macavity. Certainly I remember him paying Macavity relatively little attention, slipping a one-liner in a whole post devoted to others, I think. I want to go back and reread that section; if he was, that's diescumdie territory.

[Elmo]

Ah. No. Final Five. That clears that up neatly.

My list of people who need looking into is also Tar, Rishi, username; there's also a whole glomp of people who seem likely town. Awaiting Tar's result.

I love how we're basically interchangeable at this point.

[Elmo]

I think I pointed out that if Macavity was telling the truth, he'd just be nightkilled if we lynched KoCScum.

Mini-PBPA. Go.

[Elmo]

Emphatically seconded. Promising to claim, stalling, and then walking out is pretty scummy. Now, please.

[Elmo]

Kison is (probably) not dumb enough to fall for that. I think I overdid it a touch, too. Ah well, can't hurt to try.

What is more interesting is to see whether it looks like he's imitating Tar's claim or describing a real role PM. I need to hire a mafiascum secretary to do this kind of thing for me.

[Elmo]

There's a strong possibility that KoC was bussing his buddy.

Noted.

PBPA. Go.

[Elmo]

The Iam thing is a Big Deal to me. We need to deal with that before ending the day.

Fark, if you are a town-aligned cylon, why would you make this random vote?

Iam, can you really not think of any good reason why he might post something like that?

Well?

[Elmo]

Here.

Waiting.

[Elmo]

Rishi needs more player-by-player. (Iam would be kind of nice, too.)
Anderson would be a good pick for Kison to target. Or Grimmy. Mmm?

Why are you worrying about a quicklynch when a) Timeater is at L-3 and b) a quicklynch at L-2 would almost certainly reveal two scum on Day 1? I need to take a closer look at you sometime soon. FoS: MacavityLock

Wow. Just, wow. All that effort just to dance around saying whether or not you think Timeater is scum? I need to take a MUCH closer look at you once we've dealt with more immediate problems (read: Timeater and *maybe* KingEnigma*), especially if/when Timeater turns up scum. HoS: MacavityLock

This still looks absolutely terrible in retrospect.

[Elmo]

[Elmo]

Okay, actually Rishi being scum is a good indicator of Kison being town. If I remember correctly, Fark claimed RB yesterday (?). With a claimed RB, scum want the person least likely to be blocked doing the kill. Rishi looks fairly suspicious based on yesterday's events, and Tar/Kison is basically guaranteed not to be roleblocked. So the fact they sent Rishi out probably means Kison isn't scum. By deduction, camn is likely town as well (plus town read on her).

Having said that, I find it odd that they did send Rishi out. That implies that probably the last scum isn't significantly less likely to be RBed, i.e. doesn't look much less suspicious. So yeah, feeling pretty good about this. It'd be awesome if anderson was the last one =)

[Elmo]

I don't think I posted here yet. Hi. Oh, good, the mafia did no kill. I really dunno about massclaim; this is about as good as it's going to get if we

can

get into an massclaim=autowin situation, but I don't know that DesMod would allow such a thing to ever come to pass. Erp. I need to stare at the playerlist a bit. Where is FL?

[Elmo]

Hi. Oh, good, the mafia did no kill.

(sigh)

How is it possible that anyone has not got it yet?

[Elmo]

p.s. The scum No Killed with the idea of getting anderson lynched. Iam knew about the masons day 2, iirc - he even tried to work around them having to claim. So that's a point in his favour. We should probably just lynch + roleblock + investigate at this point; it's getting down to process of elimination. Might even be nice to do something like mass non-protective ability claim.

I'm surprised that Kison investigated Grimmy after the huge mason crumbs, but whatever. (I suppose that logically this shows he didn't know about the mason pair and is somewhat more likely to be scum. Meh.)

.::] Alive [::.

forbiddanlight

Flask of Pestilence

Farkshinsoup

Knight of Cydonia

iamausername
Kison
Elmo

andersonw

Grimmy

camn

*

Hard Cleared

Soft Cleared

Townish

* Camn is town unless she is gunsmith-immune scum, which I think is very unusual. (Patrick?)

We can probably open this up for good with a bit more discussion today.

[Elmo]

WTF? Unvote, guys. Regardless of what happens, Grimmy is one of the few people we certainly don't want to lynch right now.

[Elmo]

I'm probably not going to be very useful for a while. Sorry.

camn, those are affiliations, not factions. Big difference.
I am curious as to how a gunsmith-Kison could have got a negative on Grimmy, who has a daykill.
I'm curious why Grimmy said he was sure about andersonw if they're not confirmed masons. Also why a mason would have a daykill, and obviously, why he used it.

I really want to take this one slowly.

[Elmo]

Kison, does that mean you now believe you are naive?

[Elmo]

I don't see any compelling reason why either of them

has

to be scum. Anderson in particular seems reasonably townish to me, from memory. Grimmy.. I really want to hear from.

I wonder how bastardly it would be for the scum simply not to be able to kill people? That's pretty far out, but so is three nights without a death. (Bastardly because of the roleblocker and Kison's role, which I doubt he would have fakeclaimed as scum if he couldn't kill.)

[Elmo]

Anyway, Kison be sick. Probably some foul illness from the blasted white cat who calls himself 'Elmo'. If it gets worse I may be out of commission for a day or two.

<-- roleblocker irl

I haven't looked at everything, but I believe Iam. So, yeah, cases, go.

[Elmo]

Why should we not be lynching you for lying?

[Elmo]

It might be a good idea if you say what the reason is, instead of merely assuring us that you have one.

[Elmo]

Why did you lie? That is, why did you think you'd be nightkilled if you said you were a Cylon? Especially after like half the game claimed cylon perfectly willingly?

[Elmo]

You weren't asked to full claim, you were asked human/cylon. There is a big distinction between the two, and you haven't answered why you thought claiming "yea, I'm a cylon" would be bad.

[Elmo]

I thought it might well be to do with the fact it's submitted during the day, but kept quiet to see what'd happen. So, that. x)

[Elmo]

I have to admit to a little bit of irritation, camn. I would have specifically

avoided

anything like a nameclaim or a roleclaim, because that gives out too much info. The only reason I was willing to do a race claim was that I strongly suspected that race wasn't correlated with role, which it apparently isn't. Do you accept that, in retrospect, you could quite happily have claimed "I'm a cylon" and nothing bad would have happened? Especially, Iam could have investigated someone else.

This basically confirms Iam's ability, by the way, which is nice. I'd be pretty surprised if he was scum, based on the crumb + ability.

Grimmy, did you pick the target? The shot didn't hit scum, in fact it hit the person the scum would most like dead, so I would imagine it's a scum ability. Is there any flavour justification for Helo acting like that? I suppose I'll be the first to say it; what comes to mind is obviously something like Sharon Valerii's programming, but that doesn't mean Grimmy is anti-town, I think. I would

hope

that it's a one-shot ability. The missing kills would mean either we've been really lucky somehow, or we have strong potential to block kills, and the scum would need compensation for that. I really can't see Grimmy using that kill as scum (WIFOM mode engaged).

I still think vanilla-style scumhunting is the way forward.

[Elmo]

Wait. Andersonw claimed Helo, Grimmy claimed.. Sharon Agathon. Huh. I can't find any flavour justification for that with a 2 minute skim, though I don't know a great deal about the flavour (as should be evident by now).

[Elmo]

.::] Alive [::.

iamausername

camn

*

Knight of Cydonia

andersonw
Kison
Grimmy

Flask of Pestilence

Elmo
forbiddanlight

Hard Cleared

Soft Cleared

Townish

* Camn is town unless she is gunsmith-immune scum OR Kison is naive.

I am considering the idea that Kison is not naive, if Grimmy is not 'scum'. It might be that at the time Kison targetted Grimmy, he was not dangerous, right? This changes the complexion of things slightly.
I am extremely tempted to put Iam in 'hard cleared', since the ability he has is probably useless to scum and very helpful to town, and we know for sure he has that ability, but I'm going to resist for the moment.

Grimmy, why did you say you were 'sure' of one other person in the game when you're not alignment-confirmed?
I still think anderson is town.

I think the way forward probably involves lynching forbiddanlight. I want to look back and see if either of the scum showed any knowledge of things she referenced when claiming; if they did, then there's no persuasive reason to keep her alive, I think.

[Elmo]

Incidentally, I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a naive gunsmith. I don't even think there is such a thing, since sanity applies to cops, and generally speaking there is something like a specific notice in the role PM, or some flavour hint. Can someone more familiar with the flavour tell me about these visions?

[Elmo]

Okay, confusing as this is, I seriously doubt that Grimmy would be mistaken about Fark's alignment as scum. He would 100% know if he was his own scumgroup, and my working assumption is definitely only one killing scum faction, which probably means one scumgroup total. It's possible anderson is lying, but that would mean they were both scum, so I'm effectively ruling that out for now.

For the record, I also believe camn, although I disagree with her idea about FL not paying attention, and (obviously) I disapprove of lying.

Hey, FL, who do you think we should lynch? #1, #2, #3?

[Elmo]

I see no good reason to assume that Kison is town.
I'm biased, but I don't think it's a good idea to lynch me if there is no kill. By that logic, we should be lynching anderson, and I'm pretty sure the scum just WIFOM'd.

KoC is not clear. KoC is clear unless he pulled an insane gambit, which means

he is not clear

. I am paranoid about confirming people, as Patrick will confirm. He in no way deserves to be in the same category as e.g. Camn. This is not to say I think he played badly, or is scum, but it is

very important

to be ultra-careful about confirming people.

I also don't think investigating Flask is the best move. He is obviously pro-town. I'd go as far to practically guarantee that if FL isn't scum, you've accidentally cleared scum. And that is one of the worst possible situations to be in, because the standard response is to switch your brain off and lynch everyone un'confirm'ed.

I do think that camn, Grimmy, Iam, anderson, and Flask are town. I am still of the opinion that the way forward involves less claim analysis and more scumhunting. In that vein, let's wagon

vote forbiddanlight

again.

[Elmo]

I just realised that if Kison isn't naive, and camn and Kison are telling the truth, we can just have her protect him and do cop+doc. @_@

[Elmo]

No, wait, she'll be nightkilled, think before posting. >(

The point stands though, the setup would be very similar to cop+doc. If Kison's role were run up to a claim, and camn just protected him each night while remaining hidden, it's close to cop+doc. I don't know how I feel about that.

[Elmo]

We are not playing a perfect game, because Iam investigated you when he could have checked out someone else. Maybe he even would have found someone else lying - then what?

There is also the simple fact that I find it harder to trust you when you've admitted you lied and there is little concrete reason to do so. This isn't to say I think you are scum, I think your obvious nervousness around the subject of claiming is definitely a sign in your favour, but I do feel that "I did nothing wrong" is not a reasonable response.

[Elmo]

Also, a question: You said you claimed human because you thought we were heading for a nameclaim or similar. What exactly did you plan to do once we hit that point? It doesn't seem like claiming human helps at all, unless you're basically going to fakeclaim 'all the way'.

[Elmo]

camn, you're basically saying "things went well, therefore I did nothing wrong" while ignoring the fact things would be going even better if you didn't lie. Specifically, saying "I lied to avoid nameclaim and it worked" can't be right when

we were never going to nameclaim

. In the same vein, if you had claimed cylon, you would still have avoided being night killed, and you would still have stopped however many NKs you have.

If for some INSANE reason, everyone is demanding claims on day 1... should a Doc claim? ever? And in the presence of a Claimed Cop?? This is a serious question.

If the town as a whole is set on it, then yes, they absolutely should. This is not directly relevant, since no-one remotely suggested a roleclaim beyond the usual "claim or die" before lynching.

I definitely don't want to lynch you today, but I do want this cleared up, and it's in your interests to do so if you're town. So let's not have any more of this "either lynch me or don't" business.

Having said all that, forbiddanlight needs more pressure, I dislike the way all the focus seems to be on camn at the moment. Or just votes, diescumdie.

[Elmo]

FL is painful scum.

Lynching camn is kinda daft since a) Kison got innocent b) scum have to kill her anyway in order to avoid effectively Cop+Doc.

I still think we should lynch FL, camn protects Kison, Kison investigates.. someone. Anderson? (shrug)

[Elmo]

I'd like to order two player-by-players with fries to go, please. Esp from FL.

[Elmo]

Iam is pretty close to confirmed, modulo modWIFOM. Someone like anderson is a better investigation.

FL, you are waffling. PBPA. Nao.

[Elmo]

I realise that I have to get more people than camn lynched, but I can't find anything resembling a case on the rest of the town, so I'll refuse to do a PBPA until Elmo's dead, then try and throw suspicion on someone later.

My vote is 100% not moving from you until you at the very least do a player-by-player. It doesn't have to be pages, but it does have to express a clear opinion on everyone based on reasons that you cannot easily back away from later. Precisely because, tactically speaking, it is going to be so much of a pain in the ass for you to do so as scum.

caaaamn, player-by-player, pluz.

[Elmo]

Also, there is absolutely no reason to believe anyone is going to be 'distracted' by you commenting on other people. Both you and camn are front and center at the moment. No-one in their right mind will suddenly have amnesia.

Even vaguely assuming, for whatever bizarre reason, that we would go rushing off accusing someone else and totally forgetting about camn, there is basically no way to assert that camn is the best lynch today if you have not examined all the possible options. And given that we haven't had a great deal of analysis out of you since early day 1, I think now would be a good time to act in the town's interest with some of that. I stress that if you are actually town, now is definitely the time to try and assert you pro-town credentials by trying to act as townish as possible.

I find it HIGHLY unlikely that you would make a case on someone that you judged to be weaker than the one on camn that other people would follow. You've already claimed, so there is no way to spill role-based info you don't want public.

Last and not least, there are good tactical reasons to not lynch camn today. If Kison is legit + sane, scum are pretty much going to be forced to kill her at some point. So if you are town, I would advise you to look elsewhere. So it is most definitely in your interest to do a player-by-player, in my opinion.

[Elmo]

So basically what you're saying is that you have a stronger case on, say, Person X, but you don't think it leads to scum?

Stronger cases are more likely to lead to scum. That's pretty much what strong/weak means. The more and better quality evidence against someone, the more likely they are guilty. So you cannot possibly have a stronger case on person X and still think camn is more likely to be scum.

This is farcical.

[Elmo]

Considering lynching someone other than camn/FL, maybe even no lynch, then having Kison investigate FL and camn protect Kison. If he gets a negative on FL, I'd be fairly convinced he's naive.

TBH, I'd be pretty happy as long as the next two lynches are FL + Camn. The order is not a huge deal as long as it gets done.

[Elmo]

EBWOP: I think we can get more out of Kison with camn alive tonight, though. Either way, the scum can't off him.

[Elmo]

Uh, Flask, being roleblocked/or not means who you target doesn't affect whether the kill goes through.

I think that, if we have any other protective roles, we need them to come out now

FAIL

. Dear Power Roles: Do Not Claim.

Gods this has been the most claim-happy game ever! I agree that Fark's block doesn't implicate Rishi...

Basically. Either she's for real or she's been setting up this exact claim for quite a while, after MacavityScum also claimed JK. Can I get a FL vote out of you?

[Elmo]

I know that the times that I've been scum, and I know that an investigator is alive and well, I'm certainly not aiming to kill that investigator until

after

any kind of protective roles have been taken care of that could possibly prevent my kill from being successful.

I interpreted this as saying you wouldn't kill Kison because you might be blocked by Fark (the 'protective role'). Did you mean, like, the scum haven't seen a dead doc yet?

[Elmo]

I'm going to shut up until camn gives her answer and then I'll say stuff. >_>

[Elmo]

Off-topic: Yeah. It doesn't protect people, in my mind. Protection may well be involved if you follow the flavour, but...

[Elmo]

^5 on thinking along exactly the same lines yet again. I said this back there somewhere.

If Kison is scum, he has to keep claiming innocents, obviously. So we force him to investigate scummy-looking people; if he's scum, he's going to be reduced to stupid shit within a day or so. Also, if he's scum, then he's never ever going to get a kill in, which is nice.

I would give him decent odds to be scum, yeah. I just think he's backed into a corner to a practically unwinnable degree if he is.

[Elmo]

p.s. This is another good reason not to lynch camn today. If the scum want to kill anyone, they have to confirm Kison. If they want to ever kill Kison, they have to kill camn. This is a nice little catch-22.

I didn't and do not see anything in 388 inconsistent with a fakeclaim. What confusion is there could trivially be faked. I can't imagine the scum not getting at least some info on how to fakeclaim in a game this flavour-heavy. The only game that is remotely similar in terms of town not explicitly knowing they're town is Space Monkey, where the scum knew exactly what was going on.

I will say it gave me pause at the time. I'll go back and look at some stuff, but I don't count it that strongly.

[Elmo]

I don't follow, either of those.

[Elmo]

I'm not assuming anything.

If someone dies, Kison was roleblocked by camn and cannot have performed the kill. Therefore the scum cannot kill anyone without confirming him.
If camn is scum, she still has to act as if she jailkept Kison. If Kison dies with camn alive, camn should have jailkept him and is therefore scum, and town immediately wins.
If camn is not scum, then camn is a jailkeeper and will protect Kison at night. Therefore scum have to kill her if they wish to kill Kison.
If Kison is scum, he won't be able to kill anyone for the rest of the game, and will eventually be drowned in claimed innocent results and obvtowns.

[Elmo]

waves hi

Hi, nice hat! - Mod

[Elmo]

I don't believe andersonw lied.

I think maybe we should be directing Kison's investigation. Considering he claimed a negative on camn, who's left? Pretty much anderson?

[Elmo]

Why are you convinced FL is town?
What do you think about camn's obvious nervousness around the subject of claims? Do you think she was setting up e.g. a doc claim?
Do you have any reason to think I'm scum? Do you think Flask is wrong about me?

[Elmo]

99% sure it was scum. Fark was obviously, obviously town for claiming the Rishi block.

[Elmo]

Unless I'm mistaken, she wasn't 'activated' per se; she was always struggling with her "dark side", e.g. unconsciously planting the explosives in the water storage area. To fit the structure of the game, though, it would have to be controlled by the scum, which fits better with what Grimmy claimed. It is an interesting point, though, I'm not really sure how to resolve it at the moment.

My current sketch is to lynch FL, then no lynch continuously with camn protecting Kison, until either Kison has claimed results on everyone or there is a nightkill. How does that sound?

[Elmo]

(sigh)

If the game doesn't end, then obviously either you weren't scum or you were and there's still some left. If the game ends, then obviously we've won, so I analyse the possibility where we haven't. Do I really have to spell this out in every post I make, or are you that desperate for things to throw at me?

[Elmo]

The "you were and there's some left" is if you're some kind of self-aligned role, by the way. I remember someone saying that your claimed character made sense as a neutral.

[Elmo]

Elmo would be, if it isn't you. Not just because of that last thing I pointed out. That's admittedly weak, but there is a bit more. Actually, between you and Elmo, I could almost postulate 4 scum. The way Elmo has acted towards you feels SUPER buddyish. And not of the town aligned variety.

What part of being irritated at her for lying and then saying she's one of the few people who are still likely to be scum is buddyish? What is "buddyish" about neutrally pointing out an objective reason why she's a bad lynch today? I mean, what

at all

has been buddyish as opposed to taking a stance on her? I'm going for "nothing, you're just flailing for things to try and throw at me again".

Of course, it's completely coincidental that you refuse to name any suspects other than camn until Iam, someone very likely to be town and definitely seen as town, talks about me, and then you say I'm your #2 suspect

right after

that when I happen to be your biggest detractor. Yeah, no scum motive there. No, seriously, you have "the play" stamped on your forehead right now.

Her claim. Since no one else had claimed anything at that point, I don't believe that she'd think of feigning confusion as to whether she was town or scum, unless she actually had that confusion, and I don't think scum would actually have that confusion.

She would definitely think of that. If the scum have any information on claiming - and it's weighted against them if they don't - then this ambiguity is the

first

thing they'd notice. The only time I can remember a "town don't know they're town" scenario is Space Monkey, where the scum were specifically told what was going on. Certainly if KoC's not scum, then it's very thematic for them scum to be told they need to sow distrust between human/cylon. And it's a very very small step from that to her post, I mean, look:

K, I'm a cylon affiliated with the cylons. Do you want a name? I have no idea if I'm town, scum ,or what, just that I don't know anyone elses alignment, and I couldn't really glean much from the wiki. I have no abilities. Thanks.

This is what she actually said. If the scum are

told

that townies don't know they're town, then this post is absolutely trivial to fake. And given that if KoC isn't lying then it's very very likely the scum role PM is something along the lines of "there are a bunch of humans and cylons trying to make peace, try and sow distrust among them" assuming she is town merely because of this is ridiculous.

Unless you have some reason to strongly assert the scum

aren't

told something like that, then the manner of her claim is the weakest imaginable reason not to suspect her. And if you take away her claim, she has absolutely no evidence any kind of pro-town behaviour whatsoever. Even on this page, her behaviour is decidedly like pressured scum rather than a townie. Even the refusal to post a PBPA benefits her vastly more if she's scum. You have to look at her behaviour, and her behaviour is scummy.

Do you think she was setting up e.g. a doc claim?

Some sort of power role claim, yeah.

Protective roles should basically NEVER claim.
It wouldn't prove or disprove Rishi's guilt, and would result in the death of the protective role.

And anyway, god knows, maybe the mafia forgot to put in their kill. The whole thing is a thin, thin case. We should be looking for scummyness, not power-role claims.

If she's scum, that's very specifically setting up a protective role claim. She is almost explicitly saying that she believes the roleblock of Rishi does not automatically implicate him, since there might be another explanation for the missing kill. So you have to believe that she was setting up the claim of a protective role, ahead of time, and was doing it in a way that takes a fair amount of thought about how a real protective role would react.

1. At first (for 12 pages or so), I was really in love with Tarhalindur

For those of you who don't know, Anders (me) and Starbuck (kison), are actually married...

It's true..

and I am inclined to Follow Tar's lead, as crazy as he has been, with this talk of abandoning us..

. BUT... If KoC is lying.. and Mac IS a jailkeeper... does he not die tonight at the Mafia's hands?

Oh, PS.. it is funny you posted this. this was me breadcrumbing my identity AGAIN.

And she's also breadcrumbed the rolename, from her very first post. So she is setting up a single claim, which is Samual Anders, protective role, right from day 1. This is not impossible, but it's a fair point in her favour, for me.

Why lynch FL first? Why not go with no lynching from the start?

I think it's slightly better. It's not terrible, but FL would definitely be the first investigation; if he claimed positive, we lynch her, if he claimed negative, I'd be inclined to think he's either naive or scum, because he'd have negatives on FL and camn. If he's the last scum, we're on easy street, so let's assume he's not. If we go through the no lynch / no kill and he is indeed naive, then again I'd want to lynch FL. The only real difference is if there is a kill tonight, in which case we're trading a townie for an investigation that is probably pointless either way. I think we should lynch someone today for the same reason no lynch is generally bad; we're basically giving scum a free kill otherwise, and I seriously doubt it'll change much.

I mean, I have difficulty seeing who is can be other than FL, camn or Kison. I think we can probably win just by killing those three off. As such, MORE FORBIDDANLIGHT VOTES.

[Elmo]

That was the hammer. If you are in fact not scum, now is a good time to post some kind of case or PBPA or whatever. (Too many scumbags are doing the OMG IM TOWN thing even after they're lynched, which is annoying, but I suppose is rational.)

[Elmo]

How do you know there will be a night phase?

[Elmo]

If she's the last scum and we win? I'm slightly biased, I just had two or three people in a row post e.g. "GO TOWN~!" after they were dead, one a SK who had clearly just lost.

[Elmo]

What Flask said that I said.

vote no lynch

[Elmo]

Does No Lynch offer the best chance of winning?

[Elmo]

If Kison is scum, I'm going to nom him for the title "eunuch"

Result? And who's left uninvestigated?

[Elmo]

BAHAHAHAHA OWNED

Vote Kison

like it matters

[Elmo]

a) He's claimed negative results + a positive result, he can't be naive or paranoid and the only thing left is a

random result gunsmith

which is ridiculous
b) GUNSMITHS DON'T FUCKING HAVE SANITY, LIKE I SAID SEVENTEEN PAGES AGO
c) If I'm scum and you lynch him instead, I'm 100% doomed anyway
d) He was RUN TO A CLAIM ON DAY 1
e) WHERE ARE THE KILLS IF I'M SCUM? I'm in a perfect position to keep killing off people as scum.

I am purely fighting this for the aesthetic value, if I'm scum then I'm still doomed if I get him lynched and he flips non-mafia.

[Elmo]

I claim Tucker Clellan, a human with no abilities. Anything else? x)

[Elmo]

Oh, yeah, and I have the same affiliation as camn. Tar does not, because he's scum and affiliatied with "the cylon mafia", so he had to claim something else. Go back and look at Tar's posts, he says he's "a colonial" but never mentions anything in the context of an affiliation. Now look at what camn said when she claimed. Now look how I went apeshit on Tar, asking for everything in his claim. He

never claimed affiliation or win condition

, which was what I was looking for. I think the scum would believe we had a different win condition.

(I have no idea how close I am to getting modkilled here but you can figure out what's going on)

[Elmo]

And it is unthinkable to me that Tar's claimed character, Starbuck, has a different affiliation to me or camn. I can't remember what he said when Kison claimed, but I don't think he claimed affiliation either. From memory, everyone who is town has claimed affiliation when they claimed.

Also, please note how Tar manages to claim a "major character" to avoid being lynched but also in a way that guarantees he can fake non-sanity later. That is, claim a guilty/positive and then go OH I MUST NOT BE SANE, SORRY GUYS after he's killed off the people who are suspicious of him.

Also, the way Tar pushes back at me and accuses me of trying to get him modkilled / trying to cheat via the wording of his PM instead of answering the question. Because he can't.

f) Des is modding this game, no we do not have a day unlimited investigative role and a night jailkeeper, what the shit are you smoking; and now camn is cleared, so hurrrrrr it's kison
g) HE GOT A NOT DANGEROUS ON SOMEONE WITH A DAYKILL, AAAGH.

[Elmo]

Okay, that's interesting Iam. I actually misremembered what camn said, that may not be quite right. It makes me wonder, actually, we're probably going to massclaim, and Des would avoid anything that would confirm people.

Can I ask that we don't talk about this more until I can PM Des about what specifically I can say?

[Elmo]

The hilarious thing is that we could no lynch and Iam could keep investigating me at this point. If I'm scum, I can't kill anyone without clearing Kison and guaranteeing my own lynch.

[Elmo]

Yeah, that's not a concrete suggestion, just an observation I found funny.

You should totally have waited for Kison's reaction to it, though. X)

[Elmo]

Haha I was about to come back and unvote, saying I wanted the hammer.

Scum got absolutely schooled.

gg

<3

[Elmo]

Actions

Night 1:
Rishi (Kill)
-> Elmo - Failed because Rishi was blocked.

You know it <3 We will be town together again someday my snookums!

I would have to agree with what most of Des said, I think the setup seems a bit in favour of scum, and that although I feel the town deserved to win and actually played really well, a fair amount of the OMFG slaughter is down to just how things turned out. But yeh, well played by all, especially Flask.

ty Kison for replacing into a ridiculous situation, and not stretching it out forever for no reason x)

Also, I was right about Tar's affiliation, yay. Also my gambit actually worked, yay. Woo.

[Elmo]

Also, I thought I said this, the setup was really really good. The flavour was done brilliantly, for the longest time I thought I was supposed to be killing all Cylons x.x that's Flask's influence again, heh. This was a Good Game which is kind of rare for me.

I actually thought the setup was something totally different for a while, I'll explain later tho because I gotta run @_@

[Elmo]

2) Having Incog/Patrick replace in for Timeater ROYALLY screwed me over. Timeater was utterly, utterly lynchable and was my preferred mislynch for Day 1; there was no way I could get any traction for a mislynch after that replacement.

Yup. I still think this post is my favourite of the entire game.

This was compounded by my (eventually ineffectual) attempt to get Elmo mislynched Day 1 (my experiences with him were colored by Mini 594, where IMO he played HORRIBLY as scum)

Was that day 1, or the whole thing? I was pretty certain you'd try to push too hard on me because of your views on me Like I said there, I was pretty badly ill for all of day 1, I could barely post at all. I'd be curious to hear your views on my play there, you never said anything at the time.

3) Extending the deadline also hurt us badly (we might have been able to get a mislynch - especially an Elmo lynch - if the Day 1 deadline had been fixed).

I was - to a small extent - gambling on Tim being replaced, which would require a deadline extension. I felt it was worth the risk, though, especially if Tim's replacement was competant. Turns out, it succeded beyond my wildest dreams x)

1) Sleeper agent has a strong enough role that it is plausible that the town will not lynch that player even if they don't catch on. I'd have given the Masons more reason to doubt their partner's townieness, myself.

Eh, I think the masons are given a fair amount of doubt, you can see the reaction from a bunch of people (KoC, FL, etc) post-kill.. the main reason I believed Grimmy was a) because there was thematic justification for roughly what happened and b) Anderson said Grimmy really thought Fark was scum. That, and Grimmy genuinely suggested that he be speedlynched if it happened again. People vary a lot on how strong they think unconfirmed masons are, anyway; some people see them as basically equal to townies.

2) Mafia had NO WAY of knowing the structure of the town role PM (specifically the "planet origin affiliated with the Colonial Fleet" part in Colonial PMs), and there were no failsafes to prevent town from taking advantage of that (note: I WOULD have either strictly warned or modkilled Elmo for Jackassery for his "you're missing something" questions in my own games - see Kinetic in Babylon 5 during late Day 1 for precedent).

I wasn't asking about that. I was asking, like I said later, about your affiliation and win condition, both of which every player has. Using the "planet origin" thing never occured to me. And I would not abuse it if I did think of it, anyway, I'm against that kind of thing; I was asking for things I believed (and believe) you should have been able to fake as scum.

That's the other reason why I replaced out of this game - because I was pissed that Elmo's D1 questions were legal and the Mafia had no way of knowing what he was asking for. In fact, I only stayed as long as I did so I could tell my replacement what I was planning and make the result claim.

Yeah, I suspected that. I suppose I picked up on the fact you

thought

there was something you couldn't fake, though, but I was pretty much convinced you were scum already, so, eh. I actually thought there was a rule against using the wording of role PMs to confirm people, that's why I was worried about modkills at the end, there.