Mini 679 - BSG: The Basestar (Game Over!)

[Tarhalindur]

Vote: destructor

Tarhalindur would like to remind you that you should always check to see if the Mod can be voted for!

[Tarhalindur]

Vote: Tarhalindur

Quick, bus someone!

Sure, why not?

Unvote, Vote: Elmo

Elmo is obvscum, people. Look at that lurker! We need to lynch him NOW!

In other news, iamausername is obvtown. Discuss.

[Tarhalindur]

We're doing this wrong! We're going the wrong way!

Unvote, Vote: Grimmy

[Tarhalindur]

But is Tarhalindur leading us the right way? Who are we to trust you? Who are we to trust anyone?

Hey Elmo!! THREE QUESTIONS!!!

I don't know about you guys, but I have a destiny.

Speaking of that... testing, testing, one two three...

Unvote, Vote: ChannelDelibird
Unvote, Vote: Timeater
Unvote, Vote: Rishi
Unvote, Vote: Farkshinsoup
Unvote, Vote: Awesome Pants
Unvote, Vote: iamausername
Unvote, Vote: Tarhalindur
Unvote, Vote: Elmo
Unvote, Vote: andersonw
Unvote, Vote: MacavityLock
Unvote, Vote: Grimmy
Unvote, Vote: KingEnigma
Unvote

[Tarhalindur]

no, but if my vote for him is for nothing other than the fact that he voted for me? Where is the basis of the vote?

... Do you think that Elmo's vote for you is scummy? Do you think that, given what you currently know, Elmo is the most likely player to be scum? If you do, you should be voting for him.

But in this particular case, Elmo is being a bit bullying towards me, but i'm not seeing this as overtly scummy, so therefore my vote wouldnt be placed on who i think is scum, it would be there to say "oh my god you suck" and that is very much a glorified random vote...

That sounds amazingly wishy-washy for the random stage.

Vote: KingEnigma

[Tarhalindur]

as far as I know we have graduated from the random stage.

I disagree strongly - as far as I am concerned, we will be in random stage until people start building cases on other players (no matter how weak). Speaking of that...

voting for someone because they are voting for me is barely more than random.

Let me get this straight.

As far as I can tell, you are implying that OMGUS is a valid reason to vote someone, albeit a very weak one. This, in turn, implies that voting for you is a weak scumtell.

1) Is this logic flawed, and if so why?

2) If OMGUS is a valid reason to vote someone and you haven't found any more valid reasons for voting, why aren't you voting with OMGUS as your justification.

I do not want to random vote, this does not mean I do not want to vote for some one, I will. I will when there is more discussion (outside of everyone trying to figure me out) and I get a better feel for you all. I'm not one to go back and reread games so all of my basis will be from this game, maybe you do not play that way, but it is the way I play.

If there's one thing I find scummy, it's an unwillingness to take a stand on other players.

Given what you currently know, do you think iamausername is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Given what you currently know, do you think that Timeater is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Given what you currently know, do you think that I, Tarhalindur, am scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

[Tarhalindur]

Unvote, because you made me laugh. Vote: Timeater, because you didn't make me laugh. You said "OUT OF RANDOM STAGE UNVOTE" without adding anything remotely useful, and that makes me sad.

Well, it does seem we are out of the random stage. Whats wrong with me unvoting? I just had nothing to contribute at that point.

Just some thoughts about the play so far:

Elmo - I like his play so far. Solid questions, balanced probing (mmmm probes)
iamausername - He had every right to call me out on the no comments thing (same goes for Rishi I guess), but it was a little overzealous. Too zealous?
Tarhalindur - I dont like how he's been hoping around his vote so much.
King Enigma - admitted activer lurker with his refusal to random vote? I think Elmo is reading too much into that.

I dont really have opinions on the rest of ye, not enough posts yet.

Wait a minute... you're summarizing game events and not actually saying who you think is scum? Information Instead of Analysis, anyone?

FoS: Timeater

Timeater, time for you to answer some questions:

Given what you currently know, do you think Elmo is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Given what you currently know, do you think iamausername is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Given what you currently know, do you think that I, Tarhalindur, am scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Given what you currently know, do you think King Enigma is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

[Tarhalindur]

/prodded

My apologies, I forgot to note that I had limited access earlier this week due to tests.

First stop: time to answer some stock questions:

Given what you currently know, do you think Elmo is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

I'll get back to you once I've looked at a game or two where Elmo was town. Until I do, however, I actually find him somewhat scummy - he's been lurky and relatively unwilling to commit in this game (I know, people in glass houses...), and overall he's reminding me of how he played in Mini 594 (especially later on).

Given what you currently know, do you think iamausername is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

I'm pretty damn sure that iamausername is town (in fact, that read is why I asked about him earlier) - his play here reads like his play in both both Mind Screw games (where he was town). I willl check a game where iamausername was scum ASAP to double-check myself, though.

Given what you currently know, do you think that Timeater is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Yes, and I'll need a full PBPA to explain this fully. (Short version - the arguments he's been using in his defense are crap.)

Given what you currently know, do you think King Enigma is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Hell yes I think he's scum - he's done little scumhunting and what little he has done has been noncommittal, he's used a lot of space on Mafia theory (I'm not counting his OMGUS comments here since that was a response to my question), some parts of his logic are crap coming from an experienced player, and he hasn't answered or even acknowledged my questions.

Given what you currently know, do you think Tarhalindur is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Considering that my role PM says I am town... um, no. Next question?

Given what you currently know, do you think farkshinsoup is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

He reads town to me right now, almost entirely for the way that he has gone after Timeater (it's a sound case, and the way he's stuck his head out by pursuing that case is something I find pro-town).

I'll post more ASAP... for now, this willl have to do.

Unvote, Vote: Timeater, FoS: KingEnigma

[Tarhalindur]

PBPA time!

Why are you demanding I answer your questions in such an oppressive manner? Thats odd. Why not just say, hey, Timeater, yo, whats up - what do you think about X and X?

1) I try to be honest and up-front about what I am doing - in this case, forcing you to take a stand on other players.

2) I've found that being very aggressive is a VERY good way to get out of the random voting stage. I hate the random voting stage.

And why are you

just

now addressing my post, two days after the fact?

Simple - I noticed it while looking back over the thread for scummy actions.

What makes you think you can just demand answers out of everyone in this fashion under the guise of good scumhunting? Thats a little ballsy. I dont like it.

Because it IS how I scumhunt - it forces out reactions and pressures scum into using bad logic. I don't care whether you find it ballsy. I don't care if you like it. I find that it works.

Now, why were you so panicked about being asked to answer questions? I find that quite scummy, actually.

I haven't come to a proper conclusion about who I think might be scum. There just isnt a whole lot to go on so far.

I agree that, at the time that I asked you questions, there was not too much to use to find scum - that's why I asked the questions I did. How would you have changed this fact had I not started asking questions?

No one has made an obvious scum blunder and pretty much everyone has been reasonable and rational.

How would you have tried to force out scum blunders had I not started exerting pressure?

I dont like your playstyle so far (you, Tarhalindur) its been very meta-ish and erratic. First, with the multiple unvotes and votes, and then with this, a formatted questionaire you think people have to answer in tandem or else you can accuse them of being scum for not being helpful. That kind of aggressive playstyle has stood out more than King Enigma's or anyone else, imo.

First, it should be blatantly obvious that there is a reason for my votes and unvotes, especially considering that I referred to it as testing. I will not elaborate at this time.

Second, you have a problem with players being aggressive when scumhunting why, exactly?

I'm really not being evasive, or trying to, I'm just sort of taken aback at this pre-formatted questionaire style of doing things. And since when is there a Timeater vs Tarhlindur debate, Farkshinsoup? Seems like you're trying to make a distraction and a "matchup" when there really isnt one. Are you trying to brew up trouble?

Why are you, in your own words, "taken aback" by my playstyle? Do you find it scummy? If so, why? More importantly, if not, then why are you bringing it up?

Given what you currently know, do you think Elmo is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

No. He's been asking all the right questions and doing all the right things for a strong alpha townie to do. I would even go so far as to say I'm an Elmo fanboy.

That's funny, I haven't actually seen Elmo take a position in this game. He's also been unusually lurky. The former is scummy in general, in my experience, while the latter is scummy for meta reasons.

On the other hand, you do redeem yourself slightly by giving a firm position in response to my question(s).

Given what you currently know, do you think iamausername is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Not sure. I didnt like how he pounced on me for not posting anything when I genuinely had no opinions on the game so far. But post #64 is pretty good. I would lean towards saying he's town because of that one.

So, you didn't like him for... acting in a manner that I've found to be pro-town? Good to know.

Given what you currently know, do you think that I, Tarhalindur, am scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

I am seriously considering voting for you, yes. I would like to hear what you have to say though. I dont like the erratic behaviour and I dont like how you've been "gaming the game" so to speak. The unvotes and votes in particular, what was up with that? And now you've started up with these irritating formatted questionaires, a situation which any scummer could use heavily to his advantage. For instance, by giving yes or no answers on certain people, you can use that information later in the game to build phoney cases, and exploit players more easily by building divides between players (e.g saying you are sure "yes" x and x is scum d1) on the flipside - it can build possible bonds between scummers and townies via a simple yes. I just dont like that.

1) Fishing is bad, mmkay?

2) Your "seriously considering voting for you" sounds like you're trying to leave yourself a way to wiggle yourself out of the logical conclusion (yes) if you came under fire for it.

3) I find that my playstyle forces scum into showing their hand through their interactions with and positions on other players, so long as you have a good eye for scum interactions. (It's not as accurate as I'd like until we've managed to catch a scum, though.)

Given what you currently know, do you think King Enigma is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

I dont think he is, no. He's being confusing, but at least he is sticking to his guns about his philosophy. I liked what Delibird said about it "KingEnigma is confusing me, but I'm not sure why Tar expects the random stage to be more or less wishy-washy than any other stage of the game."

Woo.

Your conclusion here is decent. As for your Delibird comment, there's a simple answer: I don't expect ANY stage of the game to be wishy-washy, and I find wishy-washiness scummy during ALL stages of the game.

I'm not Tar But I think there is a good chance Fark is scum. Few things really stand out:

Then why didn't you vote him in this post? I know from your later posts that you wanted to wait for a few other players to post, but are there any other reasons why you wouldn't vote for him (since he did seem to be the player you thought was most likely to be scum) while you were waiting for other players to post? (Note that I have difficulty accepting "I'm waiting for other players to post" as a valid defense for not voting - it's too easy for scum to use that loophole to just avoid taking any positions at all.)

Vote: Channeldelibird

unvote

vote: iamusername

I won't answer at this time. Try again later, maybe.

Unhelpful much?

Unvote: Vote Elmo

It seems like you are voting King solely because you have a gripe with his play style. Not good.

Thats not at all why Elmo was voting for king. At least thats not the impression I got. I think he saw Elmo as a threat with his extremely proactive posting and came up with a BS reason for a vote (a reason which really isnt even technically correct) That doesn't sit right with me. Then he later goes on to conform when called on it.

Why is it that when Elmo asks questions, he's being proactive, but when I ask questions I'm divisive and scum?

(directed at me)I'd like to hear your answers. You seem evasive.

I like how he doesn't bother answering the said questionaire himself but wants to hear my answers and goes on to state I'm being evasive. That just irks my scumdar. Its like one of those oh-so-subtle pot-shots scum take at townies for anything, ANYTHING, that could be construed as scummy. Those little, sometimes innocent seeming "pot-shots" are a great scumtell imo (and I've had alot of success with recognizing them).

Okay, good reasoning here.

lol, an OMGUS vote, surprise surprise (didnt see that one coming!)

@MacavityLock - I've seen every episode of the new series up to "Revelations" (I think). Not so familiar with the old one. Why do you ask? Me in particular?

Anyway I guess I better get down to the dirty business of attacking Farkshinsoup and defending myself!

Yes, it was unhelpful. I've already explained why I did that. Why have you leap-frogged over my explanation from post 78 and reached back to point out that the original post was unhelpful? Do you believe my explanation? This feels like fake scum-hunting to me.

It was unhelpful at the time, that doesn't negate the fact that you said it. Just because you were accosted of this mistake and then worked to correct yourself does not mean the initial action was not scummy.

Okay, here's where you start sliding firmly into scum territory.

Farkshinsoup offered a qualification/explanation for his answer that does a good job of showing why his earlier actions were pro-town. Not only do you fail to show how his explanation is invalid, you instead simply attack him again for the original attack when he had already shown how that attack was invalid. That's not scumhunting, that is throwing dirt... and that's scummy as all hell.

I stated that this was my interpretation of Elmo's vote (Note the word "seems"). But you first categorically state that I was wrong about why Elmo was voting King, and then in the next sentence you say that this is your "impression". Which is it, verifiable fact, or your opinion?

And yes, I changed my mind, and my vote, after Elmo responded. Seems like you are trying to twist that to fit your notion that I am scum. Could it be that you, the admitted Elmo fanboy, are convinced I'm scum because I dared to challenge Elmo in the first place? Or is there another reason?

First paragraph is basically an attempt to exploit semantics in an arguement to gain a emotional advantage - that sort of behavior pings my scumdar. When I say "my impression of it" I mean, thats how I interpreted his posts on Enigma. To me, it seems like he was bending words in his Enigma vote and then later backtracked (again?) when Elmo clarified.

... And I'm of the opinion that you are misrepresenting Farkshinsoup here in order to try to paint his scumhunting (as far as I can tell, he was asking you for clarification in order to give you a chance to resolve a contradiction in your post) as scum behavior. What say you?

Also - when Farkshinsoup explains his actions, it's backtracking, but when Elmo explains his actions, it's clarification?

Also implying that Elmo and I are somehow connected is ludicrous. I have acknoledged him as a good town player and should be treated as such. Would I really be STUPID enough, if I were scum, to try to create a WIFOM-esq bond like that d1? The answer is no.

Hey look, WIFOM!

This is ridiculous. Tarhalindur explicitly directed his questions to YOU in post 82. (and to KE in post 81). Why would I answer the questions? Please feel free to point out where I have evaded questions DIRECTED TO ME in this game. This is the scummiest thing I've seen in this game so far.

Really, is it fair of you to sit back and judge me of being evasive about not answering a questionaire style post when it easily could be applied to any player in this game? Tar's questions were in no way tailor-made for me, in fact he posted the exact same thing when he was addressing King Enima. (Which I'd note that KE did not specifically respond Tar's questions - he just went on to rant about he is town and about the logical fallacies of random voting etc) I guess my main response to you, Fark, is this:

Given what you currently know, do you think Elmo is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Given what you currently know, do you think iamausername is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Given what you currently know, do you think that I, Timeater, am scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Given what you currently know, do you think King Enigma is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

Given what you currently know, do you think Tarhlindur is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

My questions may not have been tailor-made to you, but since I asked YOU to answer the questions they WERE directed at you, so I don't find this defense valid on the basis that the central premise ("the questions weren't really directed at me") invalid.

Hey Fark, why so evasive?

1# Why am I so sure Elmo is town. I'm not 100% sure, but he has done things like scumhunt and call out KE on his "wishywashyness" that I like. He's also put himself out there for scruntiny by being proactive, which is risky for a scummer to do.

Again, I ask: Why is it that, when Elmo puts himself out there for scrutiny by asking questions, he's pro-town, but when I put myself out there for scrutiny by asking questions, I'm scum (if your earlier post attacking me is to be believed)?

2# Saying "obfuscated" after Tar posed his initial questions toward me (which I'd like to point out we still have not HEARD from Tar. ) I was trying to say that if I should be made to answer a questionaire, everyone else should. Thats completely reasonable. Obfuscate my ass! I even bothered answering the questions after the fact because I knew it was the right course of action - it had nothing to do with your post, knowing that refusing to answer would only cause undue paranoia.

1) Potshot, anyone?

2) If you thought that, if you should answer my questionnaire, then everyone else should also answer it, why not ask just everyone else to answer the questionnaire?

3) While your reasoning behind answering my questions has some validity, it says nothing about your alignment.

Question: Do you think taking positions on other players is pro-town?

3# You haven't answered the questions posed to you. Is it good town play to avoid questions posed in a serious manner that hope to benefit the town? The questions I posed were not meant to be sarcastic, merely answered so the game is even. Your "arguement" is that I am somehow scummly saying you should answer for things that were asked of me. That was not my intention. What I was trying to point out is that while its easy to cast stones and judge me from not wanting to answer a questionaire, its not very fair of you (hence my scumdar being alerted) because the questionaire could be applied to

anyone

.

I still say that the point remains that, while the questionnaire was potentially applicable to any player in the game, it was directed at you, so this argument is irrelevant.

I'm not trying to smokescreen anything, lol. Please tell me what I'm "smokescreening".

Anyway, looking over your answers, only one thing stands out:

Don't know, jury's still out.

Whats this mean, you basically will follow votes and join a wagon if the critical suspicion mass on KE reaches its teetering point? I dont like that. Please clarify if thats not what you meant. Also, I dont see how this information, as you claim, is disingenuous. Can you point out how I am not being sincere here?

This looks like blatant misrepresentation to me (albeit with the mitigating factor that Farkshinsoup still hasn't responded to this point... I'm not happy about that). Note the equivocation of "Don't know, jury's still out" (which I intrepreted as "no read") to "I'm going to wagon-hop if expedient" - I don't see how the first statement logically implies the second.

What is your obsession with "fairness" and things being "even". This game is, at its core, full of unfairness. It's unfair when innocent townies get lynched. It's unfair when townies are set up by scum. Why does everyone have to ask and answer the same questions? How does that help catch scum, who, by the way, have an "unfair" advantage by knowing who their buddies are and the abiliity to talk to each other and kill at night?

Obsession? I use the word a few times and you go on to say I have an obsession. You've got an interesting habbit of overstating things...Anyway - I do believe townies should be fair to one another and the standards of conduct and cooperation should be applied to all townies equally. Of course there are exceptions, e.g a Doc hiding his role or something, but overall, townies should be treated the same way when it comes to things like cooperation and conduct. Thats not saying alot and its not asking for much. As for the game itself, its fair, I dont know what you are talking about. Its up to the mod (and I trust destructor) to equalize the game in a way where all factions, whether they be scum, town, SK, cult, whatever - have a fair chance at winning. Mafia *should* be fair, and I'm sure alot of other experienced players will agree with me.

Anyway, on another note - I'm witholding my vote until I hear from more people, especially Tar. And why does it feel like Fark and I are the only ones talking?

Why is overstating things bad, much less scummy? Why didn't you elaborate on how it is scummy when you made this post?

Also, I can't really accept your argument that the game should be "fair" when there is an inherent reason why some players will be singled out (namely, that they are acting scummily and thus more likely to be scum), and I don't see how game balance concerns affect that fact. If we treat all players equally, how are we supposed to have better-than-random odds of lynching scum?

Sigh, my first reaction to Tar's post was to call him an idiot but then I thought to myself I should be nice and I dont really mean to call him an idiot, and he's probably not, etc. Anyway, now that I've heard his post (yet to hear from delibird he may have to be replaced? Which is odd because he's modding another game I'm in...) it was pretty underwhelming. Not only does he leave out this PBPA thats would indicate my scummyness, he goes on to say my "defensive" arguements are weak and doesnt give any examples. Nice.

I had hoped that it would be obvious that the PBPA would come when I had enough time to complete it. Clearly this was not the case.

I'm not convinced of Fark being scum, although I still believe it is very possible. *gives him a pass for good behavior (e.g posting rigorously) for now* There is one poster that consistently is confusing, evasive, and that someone I think we all can agree on is King Enigma. In recent post history, I did not like how he responded to my own post towards him. So my vote will go to him for now.

Vote: King Enigma

This is a lazy vote, but I feel its a safe one. I might not be on the forums alot lately because I'm kinda depressed and the world might end Oct 14.

So, you never actually voted Farkshinsoup despite giving off the strong impression that you thought that he was scum? THAT, ladies and gentlemen, is a scumtell in my books.

What does V/LA mean? Vacationing in Los Angeles? lol

I think posts 150# and 151# are flashes of brilliance. I like KE and his style. I like the way he thinks, its very genuine. Those two posts settled my fears greatly and managed to alleviate some of my concerns about him. I understand him, the player, now.

Unvote

Honestly Fark, I think you just nailed your own coffin shut with this comment:

Timeater, that last post feels to me like, "Well, I can't get a wagon going on Fark, so I'll jump on the one against KE."

Its like you are trying to pull off a jedi mind trick here by implying any wagon against you will fail. JMT's are great scumtells and now that I'm not so worried about KE, you're my #1 target.

Vote: Farkshinsoup

On another note, where is Delibird?

Well, on the one hand, at least you FINALLY voted for Farkshinsoup.

On the other hand, you back off of King Enigma once he starts attacking Fark (with crappy reasoning, IMO) and immediately return to attacking Fark... and the logic you use to do so is, as far as I can tell, both misrepresentation and absolute crap (as far as I can tell, he's attacking you for bandwagoning, which is a scumtell [for the very simple reason that scum don't really care who gets lynched so long as it's not themselves]... and bandwagoning is something which I seem to recall YOU attacking ME for earlier).

[Tarhalindur]

Sigh, my first reaction to Tar's post was to call him an idiot but then I thought to myself I should be nice and I dont really mean to call him an idiot, and he's probably not, etc. Anyway, now that I've heard his post (yet to hear from delibird he may have to be replaced? Which is odd because he's modding another game I'm in...) it was pretty underwhelming.

Not only does he leave out this PBPA thats would indicate my scummyness, he goes on to say my "defensive" arguements are weak and doesnt give any examples. Nice.

Regarding Tar's PBPA - really all his points were extremely weak and taken out of context.

When he wasn't agreeing with me, it was so forced and contrived I haven't bothered responding yet. Either he seriously is just trying to hard to build a case that isnt there or he's scum trying to hard

. Either way I will leave it up to my fellow players to see the transparency of his attacks.

Something is missing from the second quote... oh yeah,

examples

.

So, when I post a summary of what I find problematic with your posts, leaving out examples, and promise to PBPA when I get time, you call me scum for not posting all the arguments. Then, when I finally get time to make the PBPA, you respond by... posting a summary of what I find problematic with your posts, leaving out examples, and promising to PBPA if other players ask. Isn't that EXACTLY what you called me scummy for earlier? This isn't blatantly hypocritical how, exactly?

Oh yes, and I expect, if not a full rebuttal, then at least an answer to the questions that I and other players have asked you.

[Tarhalindur]

I'm pretty damn sure that iamausername is town (in fact, that read is why I asked about him earlier) - his play here reads like his play in both both Mind Screw games (where he was town). I willl check a game where iamausername was scum ASAP to double-check myself, though.

I'm intrigued by how certain you are about this so early in the game. If you have read up on my scum play by now, has that affected your read any? (If you haven't, this game is a pretty short one and probably shows fairly typical scum-user.)

I just looked over your other games yesterday. (I do not like to use Newbie games as a judge of scum meta, since I've found that the IC/inexperienced dynamic in Newbie games tends to throw off my scumdar, so the best example I saw of your play as scum is ongoing.)

Even after the reread, you seem to be playing somewhat closer to your town meta (you seem to be more aggressive as scum than you are in this game (though I'm not quite as sure about that as I was before reread be due to the lack of finished non-Newbie games where you have been scum). In particular, you're not focusing on a single player to the extent that you seem to as scum. There's also a gut component to my read on you - your play here just seems to fit the pattern that I saw in the Mind Screw games (the first one in particular).

[Tarhalindur]

Pardon me, I should probably do this now. Part 1:

Unvote, Vote: KingEnigma

[Tarhalindur]

Part 2:

Unvote, Vote: Timeater

There. What's done is done.

Also - forbiddanlight (yay, you are in a game with me!), pardon my playing Captain Obvious here, but I am under the impression that unvoting is a useful thing.

[Tarhalindur]

Unvote

Vote: Tarhalindur

Lol@Tarhalindur fell for one of the oldest tricks in the book

Haven't been able to post recently, will post tomorrow.

1) I fail to see how I "fell for one of the oldest tricks in the book", especially since you have failed to explain.

2) I seem to recall that you have a lot of outstanding questions to answer.

[Tarhalindur]

What's especially bad about your statements is that you're not even voting for Timeater and you want a claim from him? Anyway, I still would like Timeater to explain his actions, but I also want to know what the deal is asking for a claim from a person who you're not even voting for.

I was asking for people's opinions on a claim, not directly asking for a claim. Sorry if that wasn't clear. If people aren't for that, and it sounds like most aren't, then I'm fine with not going there, and just asking for an explanation.

Also, you're right, I chose not to vote for him, most specifically because I didn't want the possibility of a quicklynch.

Why are you worrying about a quicklynch when a) Timeater is at L-3 and b) a quicklynch at L-2 would almost certainly reveal two scum on Day 1? I need to take a closer look at you sometime soon.

FoS: MacavityLock

[Tarhalindur]

1) I fail to see how I "fell for one of the oldest tricks in the book", especially since you have failed to explain.

He thinks he trapped you with Fong's Gambit I think. But he kinda missed the fact that FONG'S GAMBIT DOESN'T WORK.

At least, that's MY perception of the situation.

I still want to see what he has to say on the matter before I comment further.

[Tarhalindur]

Why are you worrying about a quicklynch when a) Timeater is at L-3 and b) a quicklynch at L-2 would almost certainly reveal two scum on Day 1?

Not necessarily. Sometimes people over-react. Sometimes people don't check vote counts. I was thinking that my Finger of Irrationality was enough.

...

Do you, or do you not think Timeater is scum?

(Speaking of that, when is Timeater going to actually say something? I know he seems to be V/LA, but we ARE on a deadline here...)

[Tarhalindur]

Do you, or do you not think Timeater is scum?

(Speaking of that, when is Timeater going to actually say something? I know he seems to be V/LA, but we ARE on a deadline here...)

Yeah, I want him to respond. I think among other things, his self-vote and his "trick" on you was majorly scummy, especially since you already had your vote on him beforehand. I would not be opposed to a Timeater lynch at this point, though I still would like to hear some explanation from him.

Wow. Just, wow. All that effort just to dance around saying whether or not you think Timeater is scum? I need to take a MUCH closer look at you once we've dealt with more immediate problems (read: Timeater and *maybe* KingEnigma*), especially if/when Timeater turns up scum.

HoS: MacavityLock

[Tarhalindur]

I'm starting to get torn here - I really think that Timeater is scum, but I'm extremely reluctant to lynch an inactive player (since said inactive player will not have a chance to claim). That said, there is also a possibility that Timeater is actively lurking...

Mod: Has Timeater picked up his prod?

In addition, as of right now I would prefer that we wait until tomorrow to deal with KingEnigma - I don't know enough to be certain about lynching him just yet.

I need to reread players not named KingEnigma or Timeater to see if there are any other good candidates if we don't lynch Timeater today.

[Tarhalindur]

^ kill plz

FoS

:

Tarhalindur

Is there a reason for that FoS?

[Tarhalindur]

Side note: I'm having to check on a few things. As I currently understand things, I will not be joining a deadline KingEnigma wagon unless it is absolutely necessary to ensure a lynch.

If Timeater is truly inactive and we can't get a deadline extension, then the only other player I would actually be willing to vote for at this time is MacavityLock.

[Tarhalindur]

It's amazing what 24 hours can do to adjust my scumdar (particularly with deadline looming).

Because the way I read it, you're saying two contradictory things in just 4 words. Which is impressive.

Thanks, I try to be concise.

I seem to recall mentioning during my Timeater PBPA that I consider direct contradiction a major scumtell. Are you admitting a direct contradiction here? If not (which you seem to indicate in a later post), why not show in this post exactly why it was not a direct contradiction?

Is there a reason for that FoS?

Yes.

I suppose that I should have phrased the question better. Here is a more complete version:

Is there a reason for that FoS? If yes, explain in excruciating detail. (More than you provided later.)

You know, people generally have REASONS for saying things.

An astute observation.

See last response.

I'm not feeling particularly helpful, no.

And if you're not going to be helpful then I don't feel like leaving you alive. Your point?

Recaltricient = recalcitrant + reticent? I like it.

The contrived OMGUS makes me feel happy, though.

Nice misrepresentation, particularly as this is the kind of situation where I consider OMGUS a town tell.

I don't think you actually believe it's scummy.

Okay, that's nice. Why do you think this, exactly? As far as I can tell, your vote on forbiddanlight was only due to CDB's inactivity...

I understand what you said.

I don't believe you.

Why not? Repetition does not a valid case make.

What smacks of scuminess about it?

You're not allowed to attack me without much explanation, remember. So clearly there needs to be much explanation coming from you.

To use a phrase I am rather fond of: Pot, meet kettle. You're black.

Are you even TRYING?

I imagine I'm very trying.

And I imagine that you're trying to dodge questions. Your point?

Oh, it wasn't to do with that. Tar said he was suspicious of me for being lurky (probably wrong, but understandable) but didn't follow it up.

Well, at least you finally explained that FoS.

1) I haven't followed it up because I have had more pressing priorities (read: Timeater).

2) I consider lurking a rather valid scumtell coming from you (I haven't forgotten Mini 594), especially when combined with a burst of posting under pressure.

3) Why aren't you following up on your FoS?

forbiddanlight is pretty sure Tim is scum based on a case that seems relatively weak to me when Tim's the popular wagon.

Why, exactly, is her case weak? Please, explain.

I'm not feeling like being helpful. Maybe I'll be helpful tomorrow. I don't believe her because I'm trying very hard to think of a way that my posts might be viewed as genuinely scummy, and I'm not coming up with anything... I almost always understand why people are suspicious of me whenever they (genuinely) are. It seems unnatural, I could imagine her being annoyed, maybe amused, but not genuinely suspicious. (I think I understand your position, though, odd as it sounds.)

OMG, it's a esnopser sdrawkcab!

That's funny, I got the distinct impression that she though you were scum because you were acting in a pro-scum manner.

Have you considered that I might be feeling unhelpful?

Have you considered that your feelings are irrelevant to how you should play in a Mafia game?

Well, quite. I'd understand a degree of confusion, but I really don't follow why you'd think I'm scum because of it.

My impression is that she thinks that you're scum because IF YOU WERE TOWN THEN YOU WOULD NOT KEEP ACTING LIKE THIS. I certainly do.

Oh, I see.

Are you usually anti-town when you're scum?

1) But clearly I cannot choose the wine in front of me...

2) There's a reason why scum try to act pro-town - when they try to act anti-town, they get lynched for being anti-town, because town cannot afford to let players act in a pro-scum manner (since that makes it easier for scum to hide and win).

I'm a little short on time, so I'll PBPA your earlier posts ASAP.

I still think Timeater is more likely to be scum than you are, Elmo, and I would still prefer a Timeater lynch, but Timeater seems to be inactive (as previously noted, I'm loathe to lynch an inactive player who will not have a chance to claim), and given your play over the last 24 hours you are now the player I think is second most likely to be scum. Your behavior over the last 24 hours has been so pro-scum that a) I have some difficulty believing that you are town, since if you were town you would not be acting in a pro-scum manner and b) even if you were guaranteed to be town I would consider a policy lynch.

Also, 72 hours is plenty of time to switch lynch targets (we got a lynch on Day 2 in Mafia 78 with considerably less time, and that game was larger than this one and had more restrictive deadline rules).

Unvote, Vote: Elmo

[Tarhalindur]

Now that we have a replacement for Timeater (hi Patrick, hi Incog, good to see you again), it's time to switch back to the best wagon.

Unvote, Vote: Flask of Pestilence

[Tarhalindur]

Sorry for the absence, I'm V/LA until Friday (as noted yesterday in the games I am modding) and won't have time to make any in-depth posts (or read Macavity, who I hadn't finished reading earlier and whose name I saw mentioned while skimming the thread) until Friday.

Unvote: Flask of Pestilence

, whose behavior since replacing in more than offsets their predecessor's scumminess.

[Tarhalindur]

My apologies for not posting for the last two days - I've been on severely limited access (to such an extent that I haven't even been able to post vote counts in games I'm modding).

Given the amount of time left in the game day and the amount of time I don't have to make in-depth replies right now, I think it's time to claim.

Speaking of that, I suppose it's time to give an answer to this question...

<snip>

But this mystery needs to be solved first:

I don't know about you guys, but I have a destiny.

Speaking of that... testing, testing, one two three...

Unvote, Vote: ChannelDelibird
Unvote, Vote: Timeater
Unvote, Vote: Rishi
Unvote, Vote: Farkshinsoup
Unvote, Vote: Awesome Pants
Unvote, Vote: iamausername
Unvote, Vote: Tarhalindur
Unvote, Vote: Elmo
Unvote, Vote: andersonw
Unvote, Vote: MacavityLock
Unvote, Vote: Grimmy
Unvote, Vote: KingEnigma
Unvote

Pardon me, I should probably do this now. Part 1:

Unvote, Vote: KingEnigma

Part 2:

Unvote, Vote: Timeater

There. What's done is done.

What is the deal with this Tar? Is this some role requirement?
Is this something that you are not allowed to discuss?

Or is this a red herring? (This one is directed at everyone else) I guess I'd like to see some kind of role claim from Tar sooner than later so that if we need to go elsewhere for our lynch we have some time to do it. Any thoughts?

<snip>

Smart person, that Farkshinsoup. He found himself some breadcrumbs.

I'm Kara Thrace, everyone's favorite supposedly-died-but-mysteriously-reappeared character. During the time when I was supposedly dead, I had visions of the path to earth... a nebula... a system with three stars... a planet, Earth, with a yellow moon orbiting it... and a basestar, drifting in space, damaged, being approached by both Cylons and humans. The upshot is that I actually "remember" the current events from my visions. The downside is that it takes tremendous concentration to actually recognize any of the voices from my vision.

I'm a modified gunsmith. Each day, I can target a player; if I do, then I will learn during the next night whether that player is dangerous. There's a catch, however: due to the concentration required to make use of my somewhat nebulous visions, I MUST be voting for my target at the time that I submit my ability (I can use my ability during twilight, but if I do then I can only target the player I was voting at the end of the day).

Breadcrumbs:

Vote: destructor

Tarhalindur would like to remind you that you should always check to see if the Mod can be voted for!

This post was actually crumb #1 (the mod vote was the first hint that my role was somehow tied to voting).

We're doing this wrong! We're going the wrong way!

Unvote, Vote: Grimmy

Big fat Kara Thrace breadcrumb here...

But is Tarhalindur leading us the right way? Who are we to trust you? Who are we to trust anyone?

Hey Elmo!! THREE QUESTIONS!!!

I don't know about you guys, but I have a destiny.

Speaking of that... testing, testing, one two three...

Unvote, Vote: ChannelDelibird
Unvote, Vote: Timeater
Unvote, Vote: Rishi
Unvote, Vote: Farkshinsoup
Unvote, Vote: Awesome Pants
Unvote, Vote: iamausername
Unvote, Vote: Tarhalindur
Unvote, Vote: Elmo
Unvote, Vote: andersonw
Unvote, Vote: MacavityLock
Unvote, Vote: Grimmy
Unvote, Vote: KingEnigma
Unvote

This actually WAS a testing post (I was testing to see if I had to unvote and revote in separate posts for my ability - the answer is yes). It's also a big fat Kara Thrace breadcrumb (she DOES have a destiny, you know) AND a big fat crumb that my role is related to voting in some way (hence the going a little overboard on the votes).

You may also remember me accusing me of telling Timeater to quit fishing when he asked about this post earlier. Understand now?

Pardon me, I should probably do this now. Part 1:

Unvote, Vote: KingEnigma

Part 2:

Unvote, Vote: Timeater

There. What's done is done.

Also - forbiddanlight (yay, you are in a game with me!), pardon my playing Captain Obvious here, but I am under the impression that unvoting is a useful thing.

Why would I suddenly vote for KingEnigma and then revote Timeater with no justification? Because I was targeting an investigation on his ass, that's why!

Why KingEnigma? He's harder to read than most other players here (aka my number one reason for investigating as Cop or Gunsmith).

Do you, or do you not think Timeater is scum?

(Speaking of that, when is Timeater going to actually say something? I know he seems to be V/LA, but we ARE on a deadline here...)

Yeah, I want him to respond. I think among other things, his self-vote and his "trick" on you was majorly scummy, especially since you already had your vote on him beforehand. I would not be opposed to a Timeater lynch at this point, though I still would like to hear some explanation from him.

Wow. Just, wow. All that effort just to dance around saying whether or not you think Timeater is scum? I need to take a MUCH closer look at you once we've dealt with more immediate problems (read: Timeater and *maybe* KingEnigma*), especially if/when Timeater turns up scum.

HoS: MacavityLock

Notice how I immediately back off of KingEnigma after sending in my investigation (since I don't want to waste it).

I'm starting to get torn here - I really think that Timeater is scum, but I'm extremely reluctant to lynch an inactive player (since said inactive player will not have a chance to claim). That said, there is also a possibility that Timeater is actively lurking...

Mod: Has Timeater picked up his prod?

In addition, as of right now I would prefer that we wait until tomorrow to deal with KingEnigma -

I don't know enough to be certain about lynching him just yet

.

I need to reread players not named KingEnigma or Timeater to see if there are any other good candidates if we don't lynch Timeater today.

A big, fat breadcrumb that I had already targeted King Enigma with an investigation, there.

That's ALSO why I was willing to go after Elmo to such a great degree - I hadn't had time (indeed, haven't had time) to read Macavity in full, Elmo's behavior at the time I PBPA'd him read moderately scummy, and I had good reasons to stay off the two players I was more suspicious of at the time (Timeater and KingEnigma) - namely, inactivity and a pending investigation.

I still need to scrounge up time to reread recent events (and to read Macavity in full). For now, Macavity is probably the best place to park my vote (IncogPatrick's comments about him seem to have some merit).

Vote: MacavityLock

[Tarhalindur]

K, I'm a cylon affiliated with the cylons. Do you want a name? I have no idea if I'm town, scum ,or what, just that I don't know anyone elses alignment, and I couldn't really glean much from the wiki. I have no abilities. Thanks.

Name claim, please.

[Tarhalindur]

Blah blah was busy with modded game Monday blah blah election night blah blah when I haven't been posting vote counts in my modded games then I'm probably inactive blah blah back to posting.

Full summary of role PM: I'm Kara Thrace, a Colonial. I woke up on this basestar with no idea of who anybody else actually is and no idea what to do... except for my visions. I painted what I remembered of the visions (to assist with memory) then tried to help everyone out as best I can. If I'm concentrating enough on a player, I may be able to recognize them as a dangerous person (I have to take a second look at the paintings to double check, hence the receive results at night).

Thoughts on forbiddanlight: I can buy the claim for now... but I'm not sure if D'Anna should even be in the game. Does anyone have flavor indicating that the Resurrection Hub has been raided or destroyed?

Question of my own to Cylon players: Is your character a member of the loyalist faction (Number 1 "Cavil" model, Number 4 "Simon" model, Number 5 "Aaron Doral", Sharon Valerii) or the rebel faction (Number 2 "Leoben Conoy", Number 6 "Caprica Six/Natalie/Gina" model, or any Number 8 "Sharon Agathon" other than Sharon Valerii)? D'Anna counts as "neither" by my book.

[Tarhalindur]

I tried to snoop into things I should have been (the identities of the final five cylons). Humans and myself have a mutual distrust. There may be some that support me, but I stand apart from efforts to be in line with humans.

That's what I got from it anyway.

Question: Does your flavor mention anything about "boxing" or the Resurrection Hub?

[Tarhalindur]

I've tried to work around this, but no dice, so I'll just go ahead and say it. My access is currently limited enough that I CANNOT guarantee a post every 48 hours for at least two weeks, possibly 3. I *might* be able to meet the posting requirement with short comments and placeholder posts, but not long ones.

Now that I've had time to skim the thread...

I find it hard to think of a definitely 'safe' way to assess the model claim. I'm.. pretty neutral on it. I remain firmly on the fence regarding Macavity, too, mostly because I still haven't reread yet - I was terribly busy doing sweet fuck all. :effort:

Tar is lurking. Answer my perfectly reasonable question already.

1) Limited access.
2) I am a Colonial aligned with the Colonials. That what you're looking for?

Side note: I must strongly disagree with your definition of "reasonable", considering that if I were running this game you would have been, if not outright replaced or modkilled, then at least VERY SEVERELY WARNED several real-life days ago:

<1> This is a game. I hope that you have fun. In return, I ask that you not have your fun at the expense of the other players in this game (in other words, don't be a jackass).

Repeated or extreme violations of this rule will result in replacement or modkill.

<1a> Attempting to use loopholes in the rules to gain an advantage in the game is considered jackassery, and will be treated as such. This applies to things like encrypted codes, invisible text, editing and deleting posts,

trying to use the structure of the role PM to gain an advantage

, etc. Please, use your common sense!

I recognize that destructor is the moderator, not me, and that using the structure of the role PM appears to be legal in this game. That doesn't mean I find it reasonable. Quite the opposite.

Now, the rest of the claims:

Grimmy needs to claim role name.

There are two claims here that are bugging me: forbiddanlight and camn.

Forbiddanlight: The big concerns I have here are: 1) that D'Anna was boxed for the majority of season 4, and I cannot tell if the flavor here indicates that D'Anna was somehow unboxed, and 2) D'Anna, flavorwise, might be neutral (different agenda).
camn: I have some difficulty believing that a Centurion would be in the game, even taking the inhibitor removal into account (For starters, I don't remember Centurions actually being able to speak, even after the inhibitors were removed.) The good news is, I DO have an investigation targeted on his ass.

More when I have time.

[Tarhalindur]

I've got a second or two to spare, so...

Add "seems to know information he shouldn't know" to the list of issues bugging me about Knight of Cydonia's (whoops!) claim.

A certain detail tugs at my mind:

Furthermore, the Centurions are unable to distinguish one copy of humanoid Cylon from another.

I don't understand KoC's distinction between "make" and "model". But I am wondering precisely how a centurion would be able to gain information about a humanoid cylon.

His ability is confirmable, though. Hmm. What would that even mean?

Could the ability be a Mafia ability in disguise? Full role cop masquerading as an odd investigative role? Mafia Traitor with an ability that can help him find the rest of the Mafia?

I need to think about this.

[Tarhalindur]

Post to avoid prod. Sorry for lack of detail.

[Tarhalindur]

Placeholder - I should have time to post later tonight.

[Tarhalindur]

Bleh, my time today is more limited than I thought (time to comment but not reread), and I need to deal with my modded games ASAP, so I don't have time to answer any outstanding questions (I seem to recall there are some outstanding, but I've forgotten who and I don't have time for a full reread). Given the way things are going, I'll have mull over asking for replacement once day ends.

Now, for what appears to be the current debate, Macavity vs. KoC: I'm torn here. Logic dictates one response, but my gut is telling me the latter is more accurate.

Options:

Lynch Knight of Cydonia first:

- If KoC is lying: We catch a scum and (hopefully) get to keep our jailkeeper alive.
- If KoC is telling the truth: We lynch a now-vanilla and lynch MacavityScum tomorrow. Vanilla for Mafia (and a likely power role - see below) seems like a good trade in my book.

Lynch MacavityLock first:

- If KoC is lying: We lose our Jailkeeper (and probably our only protective role) and lynch KoC tomorrow. This is a fairly bad trade, especially as it leaves me wide open tonight (no "will he jailkeep Tar" WIFOM).
- If KoC is telling the truth: We mostly confirm KoC and nail a Mafia (and probably one of their power roles - see below)

Factors to take into account:

- Macavity is fairly new and he claimed Jailkeeper. I doubt that he's experienced enough to make that claim without personally having a power that can simulate it - if he is scum, I suspect he's a Mafia Roleblocker or similar.
- KoC's claimed guilty is very, very odd if he's Mafia, since he's practically doomed himself if he's wrong, especially since as far as I can tell he wasn't under heavy pressure when he first claimed the role and he does not, to the best of my knowledge, have a history of Tarhalindur-style (high-risk to the point of being suicidal) scum play.*
- KoC has the weaker claim; I have some difficulty believing that a Centurion is in the game.
- Macavity has been on my scumdar for a while, while Knight of Cydonia has not.

* - There is one situation I can think of where KoC's play makes somewhat more sense as a scum role: if he's a Mafia Traitor, he might have elected to take down the claimed protective role to give the full Mafiosos a clear shot at the jailkeeper.

I'm currently weakly inclined to take the less risky play and lynch Knight of Cydonia first, but I'm not convinced yet.

Unvote, Vote: Knight of Cydonia

I should be able to make at least one short post tomorrow, so I can switch back to MacavityLock if needed.

[Tarhalindur]

As long as I'm here... sure, why not.

Unvote, Vote: MacavityLock

[Tarhalindur]

Bleh, camn doesn't appear to be dangerous.

In other news, I'm requesting replacement - there's no way I'm going to be able to keep up with this game.

[Tarhalindur]

Now that this game is over, some of the key problems:

1) Scum team wasn't all that good. I'm not particularly good at playing scum (too suicidal, among other things), though I'm a fairly good organizer. The problem was that the rest of my team was worse (Macavity was a raw newb, Rishi is far too lurky for my tastes regardless of alignment). Even worse, I was short on access, so I couldn't play my best game. This wasn't helped by a town team comparable to Mini 594 (once Incog/Patrick replaced in). Speaking of that...

2) Having Incog/Patrick replace in for Timeater ROYALLY screwed me over. Timeater was utterly, utterly lynchable and was my preferred mislynch for Day 1; there was no way I could get any traction for a mislynch after that replacement. This was compounded by my (eventually ineffectual) attempt to get Elmo mislynched Day 1 (my experiences with him were colored by Mini 594, where IMO he played HORRIBLY as scum) when I thought I couldn't get Timeater lynched in time for deadline. Speaking of that...

3) Extending the deadline also hurt us badly (we might have been able to get a mislynch - especially an Elmo lynch - if the Day 1 deadline had been fixed).

4) I showed my supertell: avoiding the Mafia Roleblocker (seriously, I need to bus roleblockers more often). This helped put a few of the strong players onto the right track regarding me.

5) The last and biggest problem was that my claim (which I was planning from the beginning) was NEVER intended to be a long-term survival mechanism. The original plan was a fairly simple suicide run: get Timeater lynched D1, Mafia kill N1, claim dangerous on Camn D2 (hopefully getting her lynched), Mafia kill N2, use daykill immediately D3 (I didn't know it would end day...), accept my own lynch D3, remaining Mafiosos use daykill to get the final mislynch D4. I had to modify the goal after the Macavity lynch (this time it would rely on getting Rishi to endgame), but the plan was the same. The ultimate thing that blew that Mafia out? Fark's roleblock N1.

That said, I see about two things I'm not happy with in the design:
1) Sleeper agent has a strong enough role that it is plausible that the town will not lynch that player even if they don't catch on. I'd have given the Masons more reason to doubt their partner's townieness, myself. (Also would have helped had a less obviously town player... say, camn... been the kill target.)
2) Mafia had NO WAY of knowing the structure of the town role PM (specifically the "planet origin affiliated with the Colonial Fleet" part in Colonial PMs), and there were no failsafes to prevent town from taking advantage of that (note: I WOULD have either strictly warned or modkilled Elmo for Jackassery for his "you're missing something" questions in my own games - see Kinetic in Babylon 5 during late Day 1 for precedent). This game badly needed some way to counter that for a more believable claim (using the phrasing in the safeclaim message, posting a Colonial character as the vanilla PM in the opening post, a full Falseclaim ability, a rule outlawing asking about role PM phrasing, etc.). That's the other reason why I replaced out of this game - because I was pissed that Elmo's D1 questions were legal and the Mafia had no way of knowing what he was asking for. In fact, I only stayed as long as I did so I could tell my replacement what I was planning and make the result claim.