Mini 679 - BSG: The Basestar (Game Over!)

[MacavityLock]

Vote: KingEnigma

.

There's no monarchy here. We elect our world leaders, good sir. That or, uh, appoint them after the first 40 in line die of over-exposure to Cylon weapon fire...

[MacavityLock]

But is Tarhalindur leading us the right way? Who are we to trust you? Who are we to trust anyone?

Hey Elmo!! THREE QUESTIONS!!!

Does "you" here refer to Elmo or Tar?

Also, those aren't very helpful questions.

[MacavityLock]

Everyone who is voting for someone, why are you still voting for them? Apparently we have moved on, and now you all look scummy! (? I mean you guys need to pick one, you cant keep on me for not voting if your voting for someone that you actually dont think is scum)

Yeah, at this point, I think these are mostly votes to see peoples' reactions. I also think we're seeing some rather interesting reactions.

[MacavityLock]

I also think we're seeing some rather interesting reactions.

Might you possibly elaborate on that? Whose is the most interesting?

KingEnigma's, actually. Specifically:

Everyone who is voting for someone, why are you still voting for them? Apparently we have moved on, and now you all look scummy! (? I mean you guys need to pick one, you cant keep on me for not voting if your voting for someone that you actually dont think is scum)

I thought that was kind of interesting. Not necessarily scummy. Just... pushy might be the right word.

[MacavityLock]

I want to vote for Elmo, but thats mostly because Elmo hurt my feelings....but I may get over it, but it'll take time.

Translation: I want to OMGUS, but I'm afraid someone might notice. I'm quite happy with my random vote for the moment.

[MacavityLock]

uhh, ohmygodyousuck votes are glorified random votes, do we really need to get back into this discussion?

That is completely and utterly false once the vote you'd be OMGUS-ing isn't random. Elmo's vote on you is not random.

[MacavityLock]

anyone defending anyone is kind of suspect.

I also wonder about what kind of "defense" we're talking about here. Seems to me that if often happens that someone makes an argument, some people interpret it as scummy, yet others find it pro-town. Is that defense, or difference of opinion?

[MacavityLock]

Timeater, how much BSG have you actually watched? Yes, this is a serious game-related question.

BTW, this is my first theme game. Is it reasonable to ask how much knowledge a player has of the theme?

[MacavityLock]

@MacavityLock - I've seen every episode of the new series up to "Revelations" (I think). Not so familiar with the old one. Why do you ask? Me in particular?

There was something in your post 85 that made me think that you hadn't watched season 4. Nevermind then.

[MacavityLock]

...when he was addressing King Enima.

King Enima: Monarch of No Kingdom I Want to be Subject Of.

[MacavityLock]

Wow, this game got quiet fast. Maybe now would be a good time to talk about what to do about lurkers. I say we airlock 'em!

I think on the Fark vs Tim debate there's a nice thin haze of scumminess from both of them. However, the hypocracy as pointed out by username, as well as a pretty heavy effort to tie Tim to Elmo make me come down on the Fark-is-scummier side.

I'm still on the Enigma wagon. I don't see how he's being helpful and I think he specifically posts things in a confusing manner. At the very least, he needs to start scumhunting.

[MacavityLock]

Thanks for the vote count, destructor. Without it, I wouldn't have noticed this:

lol, an OMGUS vote, surprise surprise (didnt see that one coming!)

This was in response to Fark placing a vote on Tim. However, Tim didn't have a vote on Fark at the time. In fact, Tim didn't have a vote on anybody at the time. So why are you calling out Fark for an OMGUS vote when it couldn't have been OMGUS? You may have been attacking him, as is your right as a scumhunter. But still, the way I see it, Fark's vote was not OMGUS, and you intimating it was is scummy.

FoS: Tim

[MacavityLock]

Its still OMGUS, I built a case on him and he retaliated with a vote.

After a re-read, I see your point, though I'm not sure I totally agree with it. Your initial post on him was a pretty light attack at best, so if Fark's intention was OMGUS, it's clearly quite scummy. Of course, it's impossible to detect intention, and I think at least some of his points about you are reasonable. So, for now, FoS stands.

[MacavityLock]

Can you post what points that [Fark] made about Timeater that you like?

Yes. The following is a good point:

(directed at me)I'd like to hear your answers. You seem evasive.

I like how he doesn't bother answering the said questionaire himself but wants to hear my answers and goes on to state I'm being evasive. That just irks my scumdar. Its like one of those oh-so-subtle pot-shots scum take at townies for anything, ANYTHING, that could be construed as scummy. Those little, sometimes innocent seeming "pot-shots" are a great scumtell imo (and I've had alot of success with recognizing them).

This is ridiculous. Tarhalindur explicitly directed his questions to YOU in post 82. (and to KE in post 81). Why would I answer the questions? Please feel free to point out where I have evaded questions DIRECTED TO ME in this game. This is the scummiest thing I've seen in this game so far.

Why do you think saying someone OMGUS'd you is scummy?

Saying someone OMGUS'd you when they didn't actually OMGUS you is scummy. It's using a codeword to link someone to scumminess when they don't particularly deserve it. (May or may not apply in this case, as my re-read left me a bit undecided. I may have over-reacted when I saw that Tim hadn't actually had a vote anywhere when he pulled the OMGUS card.)

OK, time for bed.

[MacavityLock]

I'm still on the Enigma wagon. I don't see how he's being helpful and

I think he specifically posts things in a confusing manner

.

Really? Which, and why would he do that?

Maybe it's just me, but I find 105 and 108 pretty hard to interpret. 89 out of context doesn't answer the questions. I found many of his posts confusing. It's possible that it's not deliberate, but to me it feels like it is. As to why, I have no idea.

[MacavityLock]

BTW, this is my first theme game. Is it reasonable to ask how much knowledge a player has of the theme?

I don't see any rule saying that it's not reasonable to ask people any game-related questions. Although, I don't see how asking someone about their knowledge of the theme is a "serious game-related question".

Having read through a few other theme games, I'm sure there will come a time when knowledge of theme will be quite relevant.

Also, what was the point of your post 112?

Bad scatological joke based on the misspelling of KingEnigma's name from Tim's post 104. Feel free to disregard.

Another question: Do you think OMGUS=scummy?

Sometimes, but certainly not always. "OMGUS=scummy" seems like a cheap trick that scum can use to throw undeserved suspicion on someone. Case by case basis I'd say.

[MacavityLock]

Then in post 123, you mention its you vs Timeater, again that vs word, and you say that you are an instigator and yes that is very scummy. Who would not want townies fighting with each other, because everyone knows that people are usually ruled by emotions, yes even on the internets. You get people all riled up over stuff, sit back and watch the show? That is scummy.

I'm quite pleased that KE starting to scum-hunt. This is good news. However! Look at that argument he just made. Can you find the internal contradiction? Fark is an instigator and is thus scummy. Fark feels like it's him vs Tim. Fark wants townies to fight.

So, are you saying that Fark is a scummy townie and he wants people to fight with him? Are you saying that Fark is scum and want people to fight with him, and probably then notice him and maybe pick sides? By inserting himself into the debate (which Fark clearly did), what opportunity does he have to "sit back and watch the show"?

[MacavityLock]

Macavity: Do you generally find that kind of contradiction a reliable scumtell?

I think it's a bad logical argument, and I think that often scum will use any logic they can to make attacks on people.

However, I'm a relative newbie (1 completed game), so I'm still in the process of forming opinions as to what I would classify as "reliable scumtells".

[MacavityLock]

Another question: Do you think OMGUS=scummy?

Sometimes, but certainly not always. "OMGUS=scummy" seems like a cheap trick that scum can use to throw undeserved suspicion on someone. Case by case basis I'd say.

Saying someone OMGUS'd you when they didn't actually OMGUS you is scummy. It's using a codeword to link someone to scumminess when they don't particularly deserve it. (May or may not apply in this case, as my re-read left me a bit undecided. I may have over-reacted when I saw that Tim hadn't actually had a vote anywhere when he pulled the OMGUS card.)

In this post, it's very strongly implied that you think OMGUS automatically is scummy, since you said that OMGUS was a "codeword to link someone to scumminess". Explain?

Sorry, let me try to be more clear. Judging by what I've read in MS games thus far, I think the best scum tells are craplogic, specifically making attacks on someone for no good reason. Thus OMGUS can be scummy ("I see you have attacked me using reasonable points, and now I must do something to distract other players from said points.") or it can be non-scummy ("I see you have attacked me using illogical points, and I must highlight said points for other players.")

What I meant by "codeword" is that, again from what I can tell, many or at least some players think that OMGUS=scummy, or at the very least OMGUS=scummier. Thus by calling someone's vote OMGUS when it isn't is an example of said craplogic. Please note in my second quote "

when they didn't actually OMGUS you

". That is a qualified statement and clearly doesn't apply all the time.

[MacavityLock]

Question for Mac:
What was the reference in Season 5 you were referring to. I would like to know, even if, in your opinion, it didnt apply. It may help anyway.

It's actually from early season 4, and I think it wouldn't be pro-town to reveal the reference at this point. It still applies, and I was wondering if Tim had picked up on it or not. Apparantly he hadn't. Apologies for being vague.

[MacavityLock]

MacCavity: I might have missed it. Where is this tim/Elmo link that Fark is pushing?

I saw a few. Examples:

Could it be that you, the admitted Elmo fanboy, are convinced I'm scum because I dared to challenge Elmo in the first place? Or is there another reason?

That crappy post, coupled with your strange veneration of Elmo (as if you have some inside knowledge that he is town) and your earlier evasiveness, is enough for me to

Vote:Timeater

He later clarified some of those comments, but I still think that effort to link them was there.

As a side note, I don't have a ton of time right now, so my posts will probably be short-ish.

[MacavityLock]

Unvote

Vote: Timeater

Why? Why do people do this? How does it help? Ever?

FoIrrationality: Timeater

Given what I've seen in other games I've read, I think it makes good sense to officially request a claim from any self-voter. How do people feel about this?

[MacavityLock]

Unvote

Vote: Tarhalindur

Lol@Tarhalindur fell for one of the oldest tricks in the book

Yeah, you really need to explain this. Especially since Tar's vote was already on you before your little "trick."

[MacavityLock]

Given what I've seen in other games I've read, I think it makes good sense to officially request a claim from any self-voter. How do people feel about this?

Why do you think this? Could you give an example of a game where it was helpful?

Honestly, I've never seen it done before. It's an idea I recently had (but didn't actually bring up) in another game where someone self-voted. (Game ongoing.) To me, it feels like self-voting is inviting a lynch on oneself. It feels like de facto L-1. I'm really not sure, which is why I brought it up as a question here, but I think it might be a strategy worth trying.

Obviously, that strategy would not come in to play during random vote stage.

[MacavityLock]

What's especially bad about your statements is that you're not even voting for Timeater and you want a claim from him? Anyway, I still would like Timeater to explain his actions, but I also want to know what the deal is asking for a claim from a person who you're not even voting for.

I was asking for people's opinions on a claim, not directly asking for a claim. Sorry if that wasn't clear. If people aren't for that, and it sounds like most aren't, then I'm fine with not going there, and just asking for an explanation.

Also, you're right, I chose not to vote for him, most specifically because I didn't want the possibility of a quicklynch.

[MacavityLock]

Why are you worrying about a quicklynch when a) Timeater is at L-3 and b) a quicklynch at L-2 would almost certainly reveal two scum on Day 1?

Not necessarily. Sometimes people over-react. Sometimes people don't check vote counts. I was thinking that my Finger of Irrationality was enough.

[MacavityLock]

Do you, or do you not think Timeater is scum?

(Speaking of that, when is Timeater going to actually say something? I know he seems to be V/LA, but we ARE on a deadline here...)

Yeah, I want him to respond. I think among other things, his self-vote and his "trick" on you was majorly scummy, especially since you already had your vote on him beforehand. I would not be opposed to a Timeater lynch at this point, though I still would like to hear some explanation from him.

[MacavityLock]

I was asking for people's opinions on a claim, not directly asking for a claim. Sorry if that wasn't clear. If people aren't for that, and it sounds like most aren't, then I'm fine with not going there, and just asking for an explanation.

But were you supporting the idea of a claim? My impression is that you thought that claiming was a good idea, when, in fact, it wasn't.

I thought it was an interesting strategy to deal with self-voters. Clearly, other people don't.

[MacavityLock]

Do you, or do you not think Timeater is scum?

(Speaking of that, when is Timeater going to actually say something? I know he seems to be V/LA, but we ARE on a deadline here...)

Yeah, I want him to respond. I think among other things, his self-vote and his "trick" on you was majorly scummy, especially since you already had your vote on him beforehand. I would not be opposed to a Timeater lynch at this point, though I still would like to hear some explanation from him.

Wow. Just, wow. All that effort just to dance around saying whether or not you think Timeater is scum? I need to take a MUCH closer look at you once we've dealt with more immediate problems (read: Timeater and *maybe* KingEnigma*), especially if/when Timeater turns up scum.

HoS: MacavityLock

Really? All because I want to hear his explanation of his most recent ridiculousness before I decide? What do you need from me? If you like, I can promise a yes or no on your question after Timeater makes his response. Would that help?

I'm not sure what you're finding unreasonable about my actions here. You're jumping on top of me for being cautious about the current big bandwagon. Looks like I'm going to have to take a closer look at you too.

[MacavityLock]

^ kill plz

FoS

:

Tarhalindur

Are those two comments related?

[MacavityLock]

Um. Maybe tangentally, but not really, no.

I was just wondering. Because the way I read it, you're saying two contradictory things in just 4 words. Which is impressive.

[MacavityLock]

I tend to agree with forbiddan that Elmo's new MO of attacking without much explanation smacks of scumminess. That plus his lurking throughout the day definitely puts him on my radar.

I would like to also like to support the deadline extension request, as Timeater's absence is now officially hurting this game.

[MacavityLock]

What smacks of scuminess about it?

You're not allowed to attack me without much explanation, remember. So clearly there needs to be much explanation coming from you.

OK then. What I'm seeing from you is that you don't want to be helpful, and you don't believe forbiddan. As to both, why not?

The way I read your 4 word post was that you find both most recent posts by Tar and forbiddan suspicious. Tar said that without activity he wanted to move the bandwagon off of Timeater. forbiddan said that even without activity, she wanted to keep the bandwagon on Timeater. Those are exact opposite statements. How can one find both scummy?

[MacavityLock]

Oh, it wasn't to do with that. Tar said he was suspicious of me for being lurky (probably wrong, but understandable) but didn't follow it up. forbiddanlight is pretty sure Tim is scum based on a case that seems relatively weak to me when Tim's the popular wagon.

Fair enough. I don't particularly like people being purposefully obtuse, but I don't find it scummy as much as I find it annoying.

[MacavityLock]

Is it just me, or does this sequence strike anyone else as weird?

Unvote: Vote Elmo

It seems like you are voting King solely because you have a gripe with his play style. Not good.

I think that Elmo has a legitimate gripe with what KE is doing. It's not just play style.

I also think that Elmo has a legitimate gripe with KE. But that's not the issue. The question here should be: is KE's behaviour thus far a scumtell, or a null tell? I say it's a null tell because that's his meta. Of course, it doesn't mean that he's not scum, but I'd like Elmo (or anyone else) to make more of a case for it.

As far as I know, his meta is that he asks questions (etc) instead; I count not doing (or delaying) that as a small scumtell. Do you follow my train of thought, here?

Yes. This I can get behind. When I have a little more time, I'll try to read more KE games and see if this is the case.

unvote

That's still playstyle defense, and barely much of one at that, and yet Fark releases Elmo from any pressure.

Also implying that Elmo and I are somehow connected is ludicrous. I have acknoledged him as a good town player and should be treated as such. Would I really be STUPID enough, if I were scum, to try to create a WIFOM-esq bond like that d1? The answer is no.

Sorry, I should have been clear, I wasn't trying to imply that you and Elmo were scum buddies when I said this:

Could it be that you, the admitted Elmo fanboy, are convinced I'm scum because I dared to challenge Elmo in the first place? Or is there another reason?

My implication was that as scum, you would have inside knowledge that Elmo was town, and would benefit from buddying up to him. How are you so sure that he is town at this point?

Let's come back to this in a sec.

Given what you currently know, do you think Elmo is scum? Please answer yes or no, and give reasoning.

No, cause I haven't seen any real scumtells.

But earlier you voted for him. No mention of this now?

Elmo, can you please elaborate on why you tried to float a no lynch, and why you floated it towards Iam specifically?

Fark was the only one to ask.

My no lynch thing was a failed conversation starter, I addressed it to Iam to be faux-conspiratorial and see who'd ask about it... Fark asking is townish.

At worst, Elmo is being deliberately obscure and tight-lipped.

Note here how much they are clearing/defending each other.

OK, back to:

My implication was that as scum, you would have inside knowledge that Elmo was town, and would benefit from buddying up to him. How are you so sure that he is town at this point?

Given the rest of this back-and-forth, does anyone else see an implication that

Fark

has some inside knowledge about Elmo?

I'm honestly not sure what to make of this, but it feels like there's some kind of connection here. Anyway, it's interesting.

[MacavityLock]

EBWOP: That previous post was supposed to have a

FoS: Fark

in it.

[MacavityLock]

I'd like to comment on two of your points:

MacavityLock

: I don't like this from MacavityLock:

I think on the Fark vs Tim debate there's a nice thin haze of scumminess from both of them. However, the hypocracy as pointed out by username, as well as a pretty heavy effort to tie Tim to Elmo make me come down on the Fark-is-scummier side.

Feels like fairly lazy throwing suspicion on both sides of the big debate, and his comment that Fark is trying to tie Tim to Elmo shows he's only skimming, since Fark clarified that he wasn't doing that at all.

I disagree with this. I was not just skimming. I think that clarifications can often just be someone stepping back from an "accidentally" scummy thing that they said. Please see my recent Fark-Elmo post for additional reasons why I think Fark is being odd.

I don't like his stance on Timeater's self vote. Fishing for a claim is bizarre, and I don't like the FoIrrationality: Timeater. I think he might have been trying to avoid giving a definitive stance on Timeater until it was forced out of him, and now that he's given it, I'd like a reason for why he feels the self vote stunt was majorly scummy. Because in my experience, you see this alot more from townies. I don't really like this play tbh, I could see him as scum trying to passively support the bad wagon.

I'd only been in 4 (now 5) mafia games, and only completed 2, but if there's anything that really riles me, it's people who play illogically. I cannot stand people who don't act towards their side winning. To my mind, a self-vote at the absolute top of the list is irrational things for a player to do. I clearly over-reacted, I'll admit that. But it just irks me so much that I want to never see that again, in any game.

I wanted to wait for an explanation from Timeater, but clearly we're not going to get that here. But the fact is that the sequence of events was as follows:
1) Tar had his vote on Tim for a while.
2) Tim does his self-vote "trick."
3) Tar moves his vote off of and immediately back to Tim, which reads to me like confirming his vote.
4) Tim uses this as an excuse to vote Tar.
That struck me as very scummy. I wanted Tim to tell us how his trick "caught" Tar. Because over that series of events, nothing changed except Tim's vote.

I've been in (and still am in) the middle of midterms. I haven't done enough close reads of the most recent stuff. I owe Elmo, forbiddan, and Tar a closer read. My vote's still on KE for the moment. He hasn't done anything recently, and I'm worried that he's skating by lurking.

[MacavityLock]

Well, I did not notice Flask-cog's post before submitting mine. Sadly, I need to finish up one of my midterms tonight and that was all the time I'd allotted to mafia today. I'll respond to this soon enough, and sorry I can't write up anything now.

[MacavityLock]

At the moment, I don't have time to make a full case, and I will admit to skimming the last couple pages. Again, I apologize, as school has been kicking my ass. Still, I wanted to respond to Flask-cog's post. I'll have a more complete analysis over the weekend. I know we're getting to deadline. Sorry about that.

I'm going to jump right to the heart of it:

He begins by asking a completely irrelevant question to Timeater about his knowledge of the BSG theme in Post 103:

Timeater, how much BSG have you actually watched? Yes, this is a serious game-related question.

BTW, this is my first theme game. Is it reasonable to ask how much knowledge a player has of the theme?

Timeater responds and Macavity mentions that there was something in Timeater’s post 85 that made him think he didn’t watch a particular season. And your point is? How exactly is that a serious game-related question? What did you hope to draw from Timeater’s answers that could have moved the game forward in any possible way?

I already wrote that I'm not going to be answering this yet. Are

you

just skimming?

Post 124 was really, really bad:

Wow, this game got quiet fast. Maybe now would be a good time to talk about what to do about lurkers. I say we airlock 'em!

I think on the Fark vs Tim debate there's a nice thin haze of scumminess from both of them. However, the hypocracy as pointed out by username, as well as a pretty heavy effort to tie Tim to Elmo make me come down on the Fark-is-scummier side.

I'm still on the Enigma wagon. I don't see how he's being helpful and I think he specifically posts things in a confusing manner. At the very least, he needs to start scumhunting.

I can’t help but get the feeling here that Macavity was trying to take some kind of position on one side of the fence of an argument that most likely was between two townies (my predecessor and Farkshinsoup). Not only that, he makes reference to his vote remaining on the KingEnigma wagon mentioning that KE hasn’t done any scum hunting when Macavity himself hasn’t done any scum hunting himself either. Pot calling the kettle black?

I felt like KE was being deliberately obtuse and not bringing analysis

or

information to the game. As for the Fark v Tim stuff, honestly I was just trying to sort out my thoughts on the situation.

He calls out my predecessor (Timeater) in post 129 for probably the single, weakest point raised against him:

Thanks for the vote count, destructor. Without it, I wouldn't have noticed this:

lol, an OMGUS vote, surprise surprise (didnt see that one coming!)

This was in response to Fark placing a vote on Tim. However, Tim didn't have a vote on Fark at the time. In fact, Tim didn't have a vote on anybody at the time. So why are you calling out Fark for an OMGUS vote when it couldn't have been OMGUS? You may have been attacking him, as is your right as a scumhunter. But still, the way I see it, Fark's vote was not OMGUS, and you intimating it was is scummy.

FoS: Tim

And, not only that, ladies and gentlemen, he doesn’t even bother to vote him. He merely FoS’s!

When I noticed that vote, I did a re-read, and as far as I could tell, Tim made one attacking post on Fark, post 101. Fark responded with pretty reasonable attack of Tim in response, and voted Tim. And then Tim called it OMGUS. I already stated my feelings on whipping out the OMGUS card. In some situations, it's crap. I think this was one of those situations.

• Why does an OMGUS vote
  always
  necessarily have to come after a vote that has been placed by a person on one other person?
  
  No, but again OMGUS votes can be scummy or not, as can calling someone's vote OMGUS
  
  
• Why can’t an OMGUS vote come after a person points out a few things said person doesn’t like about another person?
  
  Sure it can, but again the question is whether it's scummy to OMGUS, or townie. In Fark's case, it felt pretty reasonable at the very least.
  
  
• And more importantly, in your own words, what would be the scum motivation for a hypothetical scum to call something “OMGUS” the way Timeater did, especially after he just finished laying out a fairly detailed case against the person he thought was most scummy at the time?
  
  Hypothetical scum would potentially call someone's vote OMGUS if he thought he might convince other people to vote for OMGUSer, for example if they might be of the type that thinks that OMGUS=scummy.
  
  If Timeater went so far as to already outline a fairly lengthy case (and it was fairly lengthy considering it was page 5 and all), do you really think his “intimation of an OMGUS reaction coming from Fark” to his case really is scummy too? Wouldn’t the case nicely outline his suspicions well enough?
  
  You say fairly lengthy, but the more I re-read that post, the more I think it's a really weak case
  
  
• What exactly did you think of his case against Farkshinsoup anyway?
  
  See above, also see below.

Post 134 was pretty silly. Awesome Pants questions Macavity about what good points in particular he thought Fark raised with respect to Timeater. He points out one of them:

Can you post what points that [Fark] made about Timeater that you like?

Yes. The following is a good point:

(directed at me)I'd like to hear your answers. You seem evasive.

I like how he doesn't bother answering the said questionaire himself but wants to hear my answers and goes on to state I'm being evasive. That just irks my scumdar. Its like one of those oh-so-subtle pot-shots scum take at townies for anything, ANYTHING, that could be construed as scummy. Those little, sometimes innocent seeming "pot-shots" are a great scumtell imo (and I've had alot of success with recognizing them).

This is ridiculous. Tarhalindur explicitly directed his questions to YOU in post 82. (and to KE in post 81). Why would I answer the questions? Please feel free to point out where I have evaded questions DIRECTED TO ME in this game. This is the scummiest thing I've seen in this game so far.

…but doesn’t in any way elaborate on what it was in particular he thought was the good point about it. He goes forward to explain why someone saying someone else "OMGUS’ed" them is scummy but his explanation doesn’t seem convincing in the least.

Sorry, I probably should have said "I agree 100% with what Fark said here. Tim's suggestion that Fark should have answered questions posed to Tim is pretty horrendous."

Lastly, I just want to point out that Flask-cog attacked me

twice

for misusing plurals. That's a scumtell?

More analysis of recent events coming this weekend. I'm going to

unvote: KE

for the moment. I think there are probably other more likely scums out there.

[MacavityLock]

I already wrote that I'm not going to be answering this yet. Are

you

just skimming?

I noticed you mentioned that you would not be answering that but in post 110 you seemed to drop the issue as you said "nevermind" so I didn't think it had much relevance anymore with respect to your feelings about Timeater and figured you could probably share what it was you were trying to get at.

I believe it has no relevance at this stage of the game, but it might later, so I still don't want to bring it up yet.

When I noticed that vote, I did a re-read, and as far as I could tell, Tim made one attacking post on Fark, post 101. Fark responded with pretty reasonable attack of Tim in response, and voted Tim. And then Tim called it OMGUS. I already stated my feelings on whipping out the OMGUS card. In some situations, it's crap. I think this was one of those situations.

Perhaps, but the main issue I have a problem with in that particular post is your FoS of him instead of placing an actual vote down on him. I've seen a number of examples from past games where two people go back and forth in arguing while a scum sits back watching the two go back and forth and then said scum goes ahead and FoS's one of them for one of the more minor points using that FoS as his catalyst for his eventual vote as if the two arguers are the only two people in the entire game who could be scum. I'd need to look into your past games to see if you're just typically cautious with your votes but yeah, that particular instance gave me a really bad vibe.

My vote has been on KE for basically the whole game. I found him scummy at the time, scummier than Tim.

Lastly, I just want to point out that Flask-cog attacked me

twice

for misusing plurals. That's a scumtell?

Not necessarily, but you missed those questions that I asked. They weren't rhetorical questions, and I really did want answers for them. Or are you saying that the only reaction that you found interesting at game's start was KingEnigma's and that you didn't find more than one reaction interesting?

Fine. The thing about interesting reaction

s

on page 2 shouldn't have been plural. I was pretty much only focused on KE's here. Most other people seemed pretty even-keel at that point. So, yes, this was a directed squarely at KE. I also just noticed that you said before that I only pointed out the thing about KE that "happened to be receiving the brunt of attention at the time," but that's not true. In that "reactions" post, I was the

first

person to mention it.

As for Fark's good point

s

on Tim:

Timeater: vote placed against player who is making specious arguments against you =/= OMGUS. I leave it up to everyone else to determine the difference.

Another one that I agree with, as I hope I've demonstrated with all the OMGUS philosophy debates.

Really, is it fair of you to sit back and judge me of being evasive about not answering a questionaire style post when it easily could be applied to any player in this game?

Yes. The question was directed to you, and you obfuscated. I wanted to hear your answers and found you evasive. I called you out on it. What does "fair" even have to do with this?

The fact that Tim didn't even attempt to answer these questions at all before directing the word-for-word same questions to somebody else seemed pretty scummy to me.

[MacavityLock]

Hi all, sorry I kinda vanished on you (my sister was supposed to handle all my emails and stuff like this...-_-...). I've been hospitalized for the past two weeks. Food poisoning... blood transfusions and dialysis = not fun. go town!

Yeah, I'm not particularly sure how to take this. I was kind of gearing up to make a case on FoP, but now I'm not so sure.

That said, I hope you get better Timeater.

[MacavityLock]

So because he said "go town!" at the end of his post, you guys are both trying to say this makes you think he's (I'm) more likely to be town?

I've never seen anything like that happen in games I've read before, and just don't know how to react.

[MacavityLock]

NG 581 - Snailman-scum pulled a "go town!" type of thing as scum in that game and because I genuinely felt like he was scum in that game, I never really backed my suspicions down off of him (he remained my top suspect number 2). I'm not saying Timeater was lying here but if you both truly had genuine suspicions about me, I really don't think you would just back off that easily because of that one post.

- Incog.

Fair enough. Let me take a look at your game. But I probably should treat it as if he never said anything.

[MacavityLock]

I'm Kara Thrace, everyone's favorite supposedly-died-but-mysteriously-reappeared character.

I knew it! This is why I've been having such a hard time writing about Tar. I picked up on those breadcrumbs early.

We're doing this wrong! We're going the wrong way!

I don't know about you guys, but I have a destiny.

Those aren't breadcrumbs, they're bread. Obviously, I had no idea what Tar was doing with his votes, but I figured it had something to do with Starbuck-ness, and I was surprised that others hadn't figured it out. That's what the deal was with my asking Timeater about watching season 4, and trying not to talk about references, etc. I didn't want to out a power-role accidentally though. So, I tried to work around it in the most subtle way possible. In that post 85 that I called out, Tim seemed to be attacking Tar for something weird, as opposed to particularly scummy, and crumbed quite obviously (at least in my mind). Obviously, I need to learn mafia-subtlety better.

In thinking about the various cases against people, the more I'm re-reading, the more I'm second-guessing myself. My case against FoP really boils down to scummy actions from Timeater, and FoP's collective attack on me. I do think that Flask-cog was way overly nit-picky of my posts, especially the whole plural thing, but he's kind of addressed that. I also think we need to make sure to keep Tim's actions in mind, but at this point, I agree that FoP has made up for Tim today.

There are a good 4 players who basically don't really exist in this game right now: Awesome Pants, username, andersonw, and Grimmy. I'm really worried that these guys are all sliding by. I think Awesome Pants has been especially egregious. His initial attempts at scumhunting were maybe reasonable, if a bit succinct, and there was no real follow-up on any of them. After his 10th post (on Oct 8!), he basically stopped caring. Maybe it's true that he's just doesn't care for day 1. Still,

Well timeeater's thing with the self vote is the only thing so far that has struck me as a bit scummy, so I'll vote for him I guess if needed.

No other suspicions at that point? Not willing to vote anyone else? What's your vote still doing on username? In checking vote counts, I just noticed that he'd been prodded. Maybe he'll add some content, but I'm pretty worried about him. (Note: I don't think he's today's lynch, but might be worth paying attention to tomorrow.)

I do think the right direction today is forbiddan. After Elmo clarified his 4-word post, the Elmo-forbiddan stuff really felt town-v-town to me, right until forbiddan's vote-switch to KE. Really, it was the ease with which she backed off her main suspects here that worries me. I know she said that KE was her #2 at that point, but it really seemed like FoP and Elmo were her main focus. Except for her most recent vote on Elmo, I think Elmo's classification of EasyWagon is absolutely correct.

This is incorrect. It's not uncommon for protown players to hold back their reasoning. The two main reasons for that are (1) Accusations without stated reasons often generate better reactions, and some people find it fun to do, and (2) It often helps to hold back on what exactly you find scummy about a player so that you can observe them a while longer to see if their behaviour continues or whether it was just an anomaly. Stating reasons too early can sometimes alert scum to what behaviour they need to change.

But even that change in behavior can show a lot about who's scum or not. It's all WIFOM. Elmo's reasons didn't fall under any of these anyway, except MAYBE reaction baiting, and the reactions I saw to it personally didn't strike me as scummy.

Reaction-baiting, specifically your reaction is clearly what he meant here. Why just dismiss this?

So when do you plan on focusing here? Our deadline's not on New Year's Day, ya know.

I'm focusing on elmo, and am about to do other things for the night.

What does this mean?

I think I'm going to

Vote: forbiddan

.

[MacavityLock]

What does this mean?

Real life night. k thx.

Sorry, gotcha.

Reaction-baiting, specifically your reaction is clearly what he meant here. Why just dismiss this?

Because in my experience "reaction baiting" is bullshit you use to get out of being scummy.

Oh, by the way, all this anti townness I've been exhibiting has TOTALLY been a trap to try to find out who's going to jump on me for it. Obviously, FoP and Elmo are scum for how they reacted. Obviously. [/sarcasm]

Then why didn't you say that you felt reaction-baiting was BS, instead of "the reactions I saw to it personally didn't strike me as scummy."?

[MacavityLock]

Sorry for not posting in a while, I've been trying to work this all out. Barring a Number 3 counter-claim, I have reason to believe that forbiddan is telling the truth. I do not know if she is scum or not, but I expect that the role name is real. For now however, the pushing back of our deadline allows me to

unvote

. I would also like the full info claim from forbiddan.

FoP, I get the feeling you're just moving your vote around your top suspects to try to get claims from everyone you can. That disturbs me.

As for mini-claim, I am a cylon, with no reason to believe that I am part of an informed minority.

[MacavityLock]

• Fark, anderson, grimmy, and Pants need to do the limited-claim thing.

As does KE-replacement, I think.

[MacavityLock]

FoP, I get the feeling you're just moving your vote around your top suspects to try to get claims from everyone you can. That disturbs me.

Tarhalindur's claim is far from confirmed, but I'm leary of lynching uncounterclaimed information roles on day 1, so I moved to forbiddanlight. She's produced something that leads me to believe she's genuine. In light of that, it seems logical to move my vote to another suspect. Do you disagree with that? Otherwise this just seems like an attempt to discredit.

When I first read it, it seemed like claim-fishing. I was at least looking for some elaboration, which I see here.

[MacavityLock]

To the best of my knowledge, I am not a cylon.

I can't really think about what to post on, could some people ask me some questions that I can respond to?

Not to bring us back to page 2, but are you scum?

Real question: What do you think of either claim?

[MacavityLock]

Sorry for not posting in a while, I've been trying to work this all out. Barring a Number 3 counter-claim, I have reason to believe that forbiddan is telling the truth. I do not know if she is scum or not, but I expect that the role name is real. For now however, the pushing back of our deadline allows me to unvote. I would also like the full info claim from forbiddan.

Are you paying attention? I gave it for the most part. The name and my (lack of) abilities. Or did I miss something?

Yeah, I was showing support for Elmo's idea.

Tarhalindur and forbiddanlight: Please state or paraphrase

every

piece of information in your role PM. Don't get modkilled. Tar goes first.

Now that I'm quoting it, I see that I missed that Elmo wanted Tar to go first. I'd prefer for forbiddan to, but whatever.

[MacavityLock]

Grimmy and camn still owe cylon-claims.

andersonw - Your vote is still on username, back from the random stage. Please explain this.

[MacavityLock]

One theory of mine is that the whole distrust between humans and cylons is a red herring to distract us. We already have 5 cylon claims and 5 non-cylon claims; clearly no single group can be entirely scum. We've had some useful info from this, but let's not forget to scumhunt too; I highly doubt des would make a game that could be easily broken by just assessing claims.

I agree with this, but honestly at this point camn's refusal to claim whether or not she's a cylon leads me to believe something's up. That plus KE's general scumminess before dropping out lead me to

Vote: camn

for now.

[MacavityLock]

Also, we have one week before deadline. Let's use it. (I.e. Start posting, people!)

[MacavityLock]

Mod

, I'm definitely not voting Awesome Pants. I'm voting camn, who replaced KE. Not KoC, who replaced AP.

[MacavityLock]

andersonw - Your vote is still on username, back from the random stage. Please explain this.

Also, I generally don't unvote unless if I think someone else is scummy enough for them to deserve a vote (or if s/he is close to being lynched and I want more discussion).

I may have missed this, sorry. A note: However unlikely this is to be an issue at deadline, username is the current lynch target if the day were to end now. I find that very strange, given how there's been basically no case made against him.

camn's refusal to claim whether or not she's a cylon leads me to believe something's up. That plus KE's general scumminess before dropping out

Please elaborate on both points. I don't like this post.

camn's post 451 indicated that a) she had read up through the most recent posts, b) decided not to tell us whether she had a cylon role or not, and c) completely ignored the whole cylon-claim issue in her post. Elmo, both you and I had requested quite specifically that she cylon-claim, and she never even mentioned it. I don't know what specifically that indicates, but it felt like something weird was going on to me, and kind of still does. Grimmy still owes a cylon claim too, and if he posts again without talking about it, I'll be worried about him too.

As for KE's scumminess, a lot of it might come down to playstyle, but he pretty much refused to help the town during his stay here. username's point about the fact that KE lurked his way out of getting votes is a good one. Remember, my vote had been on KE for most of the day before I unvoted. That doesn't mean that I don't think there was some scumminess there.

[MacavityLock]

As for KE's scumminess, a lot of it might come down to playstyle, but he pretty much refused to help the town during his stay here. username's point about the fact that KE lurked his way out of getting votes is a good one. Remember, my vote had been on KE for most of the day before I unvoted. That doesn't mean that I don't think there was some scumminess there.

I find the vote slightly strange as well despite the fact that your vote had been there on KingEnigma for the greater portion of today.

Tarhalindur has already claimed to be some sort of a Daytime Gunsmith who has chosen to investigate KingEnigma (now camn) with his first investigation choice. You pretty clearly stated that you pretty much believe Tarhalindur's claim. Why would you still push for camn's lynch now when Tarhalindur has already claimed that he should be receiving the results of his daytime investigation choice tonight? Granted, if Tar's telling the truth there's no guarantee he'll survive the night but still, I don't see why you'd still push for a camn-lynch at this current time.

My personal opinion of KingEnigma: I've actually meta-gamed him and his play here was actually fairly consistent to his play in Erg0's Mallrats Mafia game where he was D1 mislynched for practically the same reasoning that people gave to be voting him here. I didn't get a chance to look into his scum games to see how that compares to his town play but yeah, just putting that out there.

- Incog

camn now has a single vote. I'm not particularly "pushing for a lynch" here. I wanted to see her reaction. If she still refused to cylon-claim, I would have had a huge problem with it. The fact that she did end up claiming I see as a good sign. I was considering unvoting in my previous post, but given the single vote on her, I decided against it for now. If I have time, I'll take a look at Mallrats, but I do understand the whole "this is KE's meta" argument.

As for the thing with Tar, I had not assumed that his investigation is locked in on KE.

[MacavityLock]

While it puts Fark at a disadvantage for having already model-claimed, I agree with camn on this one. We don't know the agenda of scum, and model-claiming might play into their hands. You could say the same about cylon-claiming, but Elmo was right in that it was a necessary evil.

I'd prefer not to model-claim, but through another simul-post in preview, I see that a majority of cylons (or at least plurality depending on Grimmy) have in fact model-claimed. I'm still pretty well against it, but if the rest of the town would like us to, I will.

[MacavityLock]

I'd lynch Macavity, Anderson, maybe rishi, although I'm less keen on that now.

Up until this post, you haven't mentioned me once. What's your case on me?

Any name or model number, Grimmy?

I thought we weren't all doing that?

[MacavityLock]

Actually... hang on. Five claimed Cylons. I'm a Centurion allied to Natalies/D'Anna (forbiddan)'s faction. Fark claims to be a Number Two, and forbiddan claims to be the last remaining Three... I'm seriously thinking Flask of Pestilence and MacavityLock for scum now. Assuming Fark and forbiddan are telling the truth - two scum seems a bit light, so I'd assume we have another scum who is lying about being human, or Grimmy is the 6th Cylon, and 3rd scum.

Vote: Flask of Pestilence

.

By the way, this post is full of a lot of bad assumptions. We only have your word that its Nat's faction vs Cavil's. We don't know that scum actually claimed cylon. We don't know that scum weren't given fakeclaims. Given the show, I wouldn't say we know that D'Anna is on Nat's side.

I'm also not particularly happy with the way you claimed, quickly (the same page as your breadcrumb) and I'd say unnecessarily.

[MacavityLock]

Ok, I've just noticed something interesting. Farkshinsoup claims to be a number 2 but doesn't have a name, a wiki search reveals number 2 to be Leoben Conoy. My role name is Leoben Conoy. I don't know anything about the theme, and the wiki seems to contradict as to whether number 2 is a single being or several beings; so I'm unsure as to whether Farkshinsoup has just been caught in a fake-claim or not. I'd like some people who know their BSG stuff to comment on this; today could potentially be simple. I'll keep my vote on Macavity for now, but will vote for Farkshinsoup if it turns out our claims contradict each other.

As someone who knows the theme, I will say that this is not 100% contradictory. There are 12 cylon models, some of which have many copies running around. In the show, we have seen many Number 2s (Leobens). In fact, during her time as Leoben's captive "lover," Starbuck kept killing them. President Roslin airlocked one in the first season. Basically "There Are Many Copies". As for how that works in this setup, I don't know. But could there be multiple 2s? Yes.

Anyway, pretty much everyone else has given their model #, I might as well give mine. I'm a Number 6, and I do have a name. Rather not say more at this point.

[MacavityLock]

but i dont think we would have more than one in this game.

Any particular reason why not?

[MacavityLock]

In fact, during her time as Leoben's captive "lover," Starbuck kept killing them. President Roslin airlocked one in the first season.

I always assumed that those are all the same one downloading into new bodies over and over. But yeah, it's still perfectly possible for there to be more than one #2 floating around, Leoben's just the only one who's ever had significant screentime.

Yeah, I figured it was the same personality downloading too. I never thought about it, but it might have been the same personality that got airlocked way back when. Still, I don't see a reason that would completely contradict the double model # claim.

Thinking about it, I'm very suspicious of the way KoC seems to know so much more about what's going on than the rest of us.

I'm a Centurion allied to Natalies/D'Anna (forbiddan)'s faction.

Was anyone else given this much information about their alignment?

It was not indicated in my PM that there is a Natalie/D'Anna faction.

[MacavityLock]

God, I hope you did that on purpose :}

[MacavityLock]

camn: I have some difficulty believing that a Centurion would be in the game, even taking the inhibitor removal into account (For starters, I don't remember Centurions actually being able to speak, even after the inhibitors were removed.) The good news is, I DO have an investigation targeted on his ass.

Read closer. camn claimed human. (Also she's a girl. Not necessarily her character, but the player.) KoC is the Centurion claimer, and it sounds like you do not have an investigation target on his ass.

God, I hope you did that on purpose :}

Oh my gods, yes!

I'm now pissed at myself for missing an opportunity to say "Gods."

[MacavityLock]

However, after Grimmy's rather surprising claim, I'm pretty sure at least of the cylon claimers is scum, because my PM suggests there's only five cylons in the game. Interesting indeed.

(Patrick)

Typo here, right? I assume you're saying here that "at least

one

of the cylon claimers is scum," yes? Given the multiple copies we now might be seeing, I'd like to ask how this particular clause of your PM was worded (don't get modkilled). Were you told that there are only 5 cylon players? Only 5 cylon models? Only 5 cylon human-form models?

Right now, again depending on what Grimmy is, this does not necessarily contradict the "only 5 cylon models" reading: 2 (FoP, Fark), 3 (forbiddan), 6 (ML), Centurion (KoC), Grimmy (Grimmy).

[MacavityLock]

Skimming quickly, I don't really understand the sudden attraction of no-lynching.

Typo here, right? I assume you're saying here that "at least one of the cylon claimers is scum," yes? Given the multiple copies we now might be seeing, I'd like to ask how this particular clause of your PM was worded (don't get modkilled). Were you told that there are only 5 cylon players? Only 5 cylon models? Only 5 cylon human-form models?

Yes, I meant to say at least one. My reason for thinking that is the reference to the final five cylons.

(Patrick)

None of us have claimed Final Fivers. Can you please clarify?

[MacavityLock]

I just realized something else that's been bothering me. Fark's the only human model cylon without a name. Not happy about doing this, but it seems like the right time to say: I'm Natalie.

Thinking about it, I'm very suspicious of the way KoC seems to know so much more about what's going on than the rest of us.

I'm a Centurion allied to Natalies/D'Anna (forbiddan)'s faction.

Was anyone else given this much information about their alignment?

It was not indicated in my PM that there is a Natalie/D'Anna faction.

I worded that very specifically. Of course I knew that there was a Nat faction; I'm part/head of it. However, it was not indicated to me much of anything else, especially including the fact that D'Anna is part of it. (There's more I could say here, but I'd still like to hold some back.)

As of right now, KoC's actions still feel very off to me. I don't know why he claimed the way he did.

I'd be pretty happy with a Fark or a KoC lynch today, and for now

Vote: Fark

.

[MacavityLock]

EBWOP:

Unvote. Vote: Fark

.

[MacavityLock]

EBWOP again:

However, it was not indicated to me much of anything else, especially including the fact that D'Anna is part of it.

I would like to make clear that I still don't know whether or not D'Anna is part of it.

[MacavityLock]

I'm a bit confused by the quick wagon that's formed on Farkshinsoup. I mean yes, he's claimed to be a number 2, which is what I am as Leoben Conoy, but I don't understand the portion mentioned by iamausername as I thought his vote during the random vote "stage" was just random chatter. Why does his mentioning something about a centurion lead you to believe this is some kind of inconsistency?

The reason I am voting for Fark is because he is the only cylon who did not have a name. You (Leoben), me (Natalie), Grimmy (Sharon Agathon), and forbiddan (D'Anna) all have names. The way Fark said it, he was Number 2, and he had to look up the fact that his name was Leoben. That sounds like an inconsistency to me.

None of us have claimed Final Fivers. Can you please clarify?

Again, this might stem from my limited knowledge with the theme but what exactly is a Final Fiver?

The final five cylons are cylons who were hidden from everyone (including the rest of the cylons) up until a recent reveal. We only know four of them at this point: Saul Tigh, Galen Tyrol, Sam Anders, and Tory Foster. So, wait, was this stuff about five cylons flavor, or game knowledge? If game knowledge, is it possible that the Final Five are our scum?

I don't entirely see the appeal of a KoC lynch either. Why would his early

role

claiming make him more likely to be scum? To me an early role claim from a relatively new player usually means said player is overexcited about his or her role and just wants to get it out in the open. Like "LOOK AT HOW COOL I AM GUYS!"

The fact that he didn't want to wait, and was under no pressure, seems like he wanted to widely publicize the fact that he has an information role. But it's also not a very useful one, given that it's one shot and doesn't actually tell us whether the cylon is scum or not. It's also easily fake-able as scum, since we've now all model-claimed. I really don't like it.

Would you still be fine with a camn lynch too?

I'd prefer a camn-lynch to a No Lynch.

I will unvote once the claim has been posted.

Why would you unvote immediately after a claim has been posted? Who would you be willing to lynch today then?

I agree with this question. What's the purpose of declaring the fact that you'll unvote?

[MacavityLock]

I would strongly suggest that Macavity and/or Grimmy think about claiming. I do think one of them is the lynch, right now. I'll probably flip a coin tomorrow as to my vote.

Up until now, you've been on the fence about me. What's changed?

[MacavityLock]

This is such a crap wagon. FoP and Tar may be the only ones who really believe in it, everyone else has said "oh I'll look into it," and I end up the default lynch? Everyone who's mentioned "that case against ML" without backing it up is suspect. That includes username, Elmo, Fark, Rishi.

But we're under two days to go, so I guess I need to claim. As I said, I am Natalie, a Number 6 model and leader of the group looking to find the Final Five cylons so as to unite with the humans. I win when my group is safe from all dangers.

I am also very good at taking hostages. I have much experience from when the humans tried to betray my faction last time. Thus I am a Jailkeeper. I can choose one person to roleblock and protect overnight. I must make this choice during the day, however. By the way, this is why I had assumed that Tar's choice wasn't locked in. I don't have the "have to vote for them" restriction, but I checked with mod, and he's let me change my planned target. (I.e. I chose once early in the day, and have changed targets since. Only my most recent target will apply tonight if I'm around.)

There's also some flavor about Number 3 that I'd like to hold back until at least tomorrow, if you guys keep me alive. If not, I'll make sure to say something before I go.

There are better lynches than me today.

[MacavityLock]

I was all getting ready to respond to Elmo's question about who other good lynch candidates would be. Well, KoC is lying.

Unvote. Vote: KoC.

[MacavityLock]

Hello all. Sorry I didn't have time to post much earlier. I saw KoC's result on me and then had to run to class.

Yes, I am Natalie, a Number 6 model. I'm the leader of the cylon faction looking to unite with the humans. I pretty much gave all I have in my full claim.

The only other stuff I have is what I mentioned about Number 3. Honestly, I'd still prefer to hold that back until tomorrow if I stay alive. So, here's what I ask: If the town consensus is to lynch me, just put me at a stable large amount of votes without a hammer so that I'd be lynched at deadline. I promise to check in before deadline tomorrow, and if I'm consensus lynch, then I'll post what I have. It's all flavor, so I doubt it would sway your opinions of me one way or the other.

I have no idea what KoC's purposes are in lying. I really wonder why if it's one-shot, he claimed immediately and gave up his power when the chance of actually picking someone lying would be so low. I know that if I were a townie with that power, I wouldn't claim, I'd hope that cylon model claims would come up organically, and then I'd use that power later in the game, when there are fewer cylons to choose from.

Anyway, it's obviously me or KoC today. If you do decide to lynch KoC then:
a) If KoC is town, then I guess I'd have to be tomorrow's lynch.
b) If KoC isn't town, you'll be losing a Jailkeeper.

[MacavityLock]

EBWOP:

Anyway, it's obviously me or KoC today. If you do decide to lynch KoC then:
a) If KoC is town, then I guess I'd have to be tomorrow's lynch.
b) If KoC isn't town, you'll be losing a Jailkeeper.

Sorry, that last bit didn't make sense, but you know what I mean. Mislynching me will have a higher cost of choosing wrong.

[MacavityLock]

camn, given the circumstances, I don't mind anything you said, except this:

So I say we lynch Mac... he has been a less-helpful player in general.

I've been less helpful than Awesome Pants/KoC? That's ridiculous.

[MacavityLock]

Questions for Macavity:

As I said, I am Natalie, a Number 6 model and leader of the group looking to find the Final Five cylons so as to unite with the humans. I win when my group is safe from all dangers.

I'm still unclear about who you are allied with. How much of this is you extrapolating? You earlier said that you were a cylon allied with the cylons. Were you told that you actually lead a group? A group of what or who?

I've never said anything about being a "cylon allied with the cylons". I'm pretty sure that was someone else. My role PM indicated that I was the leader of the cylon faction looking to unite with the humans, but that I did not know who was who around here due to memory loss. I did assume that there were others of my faction here, though now in re-reading, it doesn't say that explicitly.

And your win condition is that you win when your group is "safe from all dangers?" Can you please clarify.

I don't think I can. That's pretty much a direct paraphrase of my win condition.

I am also very good at taking hostages. I have much experience from when the humans tried to betray my faction last time.

To be clear, what are you referring to when you say "last time"?

My role PM mentions that I have experience taking hostages from my last encounter with the humans. I had assumed it referred to a particular story-arc from the show. I believe the episode is "Guess What's Coming to Dinner?" Direct from BSG wiki:

Afterward, she returns to the her basestar and expresses her fear that the humans will not allow them to have the Final Five and go their own way to a Two and an Eight and proposes that they take hostage as insurance after destroying the hub.

On the baseship, Natalie believes that the Colonials won't give the Five to them as promised. She suggests a backup plan of her own: Take hostages after the attack to ensure they get what they want.

MacLock's reaction to being found out by KoC doesn't even in the slightest resemble town who knows scum is lying; he looks like caught scum to me.

Thank you, Mr. Anecdotal Evidence. You mind providing actual evidence? Or even an anecdote? I've never had to deal with someone calling a false guilty on me before, so I don't know what's the "correct way to react." (Feel free to meta me on that point, by the way.)

I missed Elmo's request before about posting my thoughts on everybody. Here goes, in no particular order:
Rishi - Brings up points that not many people are looking at, though sometimes from odd angles. Not happy about his mentioning how my case didn't get the attention it deserved, but generally Mild Town.
KoC - Lying Scum.
username - Quiet for a while, and again, not happy about the fact that I'd end up his default lynch, but I like his play otherwise. Medium Town.
andersonw - Way too lurky to get a good read on, but I don't particularly like what he talked about when he was around. Mild Scum.
Grimmy - Another lurker, but I really like his claim. Mild Town.
camn - KEs actions still bug me, and her willful ignorance of my request really rubs me the wrong way. Mild Scum.
FoP - I'm not happy with the nit-picky push on me, and I don't like his reactions to the most recent "KoC vs ML" debate. Mild Scum.
Tar - Once I started divorcing his play from his breadcrumb/claim, I definitely see where everyone is coming from. Either Medium Town or Medium Scum, nothing in the middle.
Fark - The opposite of Tar. I like his play, but I hate the claim. See above but reverse it. Also Elmo connections.
Elmo - Seriously, look at how much Fark and Elmo are confirming each other. Other than that, good player. Medium to Strong Town.
forbiddan - I don't love her play, and I wouldn't be surprised to find her scum. But, I'd say if anything, it would be non-traditional scum. Here's the stuff: My PM indicated that my faction had found Number 3 before all of this went down, but that on her return, she had become unstable. I think it's more flavor than game knowledge, but my read of this was that it was unlikely that she was mafia, but that if there was an SK in this game, it would be her. Honestly, I doubt it, but I thought it was worth holding back for at least a night.

Now that I'm thinking about it, given my role (leader of my particular group), it's possible that the mafia want to make this gambit because they get some sort of bonus by lynching a faction leader. Just in case, I'd highly recommend that the humans don't name-claim, especially if there's a Roslin out there.

[MacavityLock]

Anyway, it's obviously me or KoC today. If you do decide to lynch KoC then:
a) If KoC is town, then I guess I'd have to be tomorrow's lynch.
b) If KoC isn't town, you'll be losing a Jailkeeper.

What's this "if" stuff? If he's claiming to have some sort of a "guilty" result on you and you're actually of the "town", wouldn't you know that he's definitely not of the town? Do you think there's even a remote possibility that he could be an

insane or paranoid

one-shot

type of investigative role that might get false results?

Like I said in that EBWOP, that last bit didn't make much sense the way I wrote it originally. That "if" stuff is me trying to write from the perspective of everyone else (i.e. not me, not KoC).

[MacavityLock]

FYI, it's unlikely that I'll be around for about 3 hours before deadline. That is, after about 2 hrs from now, I won't be able to respond to anything else. Please let me know before then if you have any questions for me, or if there's anything you'd like cleared up.

[MacavityLock]

...this attempt to implicate forbiddan sits REALLY badly with me. It seems like ML is trying to line up a lynch after his own death.

I've been talking about having extra info about a Number 3 since forbiddan claimed D'Anna. Seriously, go check.

Macavity - can you offer any explanation, excluding unconfirmable bus driver/ target switchers, as to why I might have been given a Number 4 result on you?
If not, then I suggest we hammer.

I'm done speculating about other players' motives. I don't know why you specifically want me lynched unless it has something to do with my jailkeeping or the fact that I'm the nominal leader of this faction. This refers to questions from both you and FoP.

[MacavityLock]

Well, I was rather annoyed when KoC used his one-shot against the only claimed cylon who was lying about which model he was. Seriously, it was like 1 out of 5 shot for a one-time ability. Well-struck, though.

Of course, there were 3 cylons who claimed human, which might have made things more interesting.

My Natalie JK claim came from the fact that it made some sense story-wise, but of course, it didn't work out.

After N1, we were pretty much screwed. 3 out of 4 town roles were on top of us either D1 (KoC -> me) or N1 (Fark -> Rishi, camn -> Tar). Major thanks to Kison for replacing in and trying his best in what turned out to be an impossible situation.

I definitely think there was bad scum play D1, and I doubt we would have won either way, but the pretty much flawless victory was definitely a lucky outcome. (<- Not sour grapes :} )

Thanks des!

[MacavityLock]

(3) Scum + Fakeclaims + Daykill with added bonuses of making someone look bad...

Don't forget that I was a scum roleblocker, even though I didn't get to use it. All in all, a ton of blocking in this setup.

Other things I thought during the game: I thought that Roslin was guaranteed to be in this setup. I also thought there was a good chance Doc Cottle would be too. I was pretty sure that neither Adama would be. Before D1 started when we were discussing eventual claims, I brought up Centurion as a potential vanilla claim. Boy, am I glad that got shot down. My "info" on D'Anna was clearly BS, but I was hoping that the more flavor I could throw in, the better for a subsequent claim.

Both heads of Flask ripped me to shreds. Good job, guys :}