Mini 653 - Family Guy Mafia - Game over

[Save The Dragons]

Posting content soon. Stay tuned!

[Save The Dragons]

1.

FOS: kloud, dalt, thinktank, xtoxm, kmd, ghostwriter, restfermata, crub, babygirl, Inspector Godot

2.

FOS: Llamafluff

3.

FOS: Goborage

4.

FOS: Farside22

For 1:

vote goborage

for even thinking about character claiming

Of course given a restriction of mine I doubt that vote will be of much use.

I have a problem with every single person deciding that it's more important to random vote than to at least acknowledge this discussion if not for Goborage's lines than for LlamaFluff's announcement of his posting restriction. Nobody said in their first post anything about either. You don't have to random vote...

For 2:
You announce that character claiming is bad, but you pretty much roleclaim in your first two posts? However, your claim (apparently that your vote doesn't count) is easily testable, and I think we should have you attempt to hammer whoever we want to lynch. You get the least FOSiest FOS of everyone, because I guess your play is legit.

For 3:
I guess you are joking, but even so, I was confused the second LlamaFluff started accusing you of character claiming, and you didn't really refute this at first. But I guess you're not playing anymore, so w/e.

For 4:
For Rule 10.

There, now that I've FOS'ed everyone, let's continue.
Feel free not to answer the above, it's already been talked about too much.

Everyone

apart from the name claim thing, his willingness to put me under suspicion for just having a vote restiction is scummy to me.

I don't see any reason why the mafia could not have a player with a voting restriction.

I seem to be able to find LlamaFluff's vote in the first two vote counts. Is there any reason why people were suggesting that his vote would not show up on vote counts (i.e. did I miss something?)

LlamaFluff

Question to you though - If you had my role would you be asking for people to lynch you if it got outed?

I think any doctor is worth more than any townie. I think any townie with a vote is worth more than any townie without a vote. If you go based on these standards, if I had no idea which person to lynch and had no more time to think about it, I'd probably pick you, instead of random. If the tables were turned, I would not self vote (in this case, it clearly doesn't do anything). I would, however, advocate my lynch over the lynch of someone who had the potential to be a doc or a cop.

After much deliberation, I have determined that your role screws us over pretty much equally whether we lynch you now or whether you prevent us from being able to sucessfully lynch the scum later on in the game (Thanks, mod). Why Xtoxm would be advocating your lynch over scumhunting is beyond me. However, I am not opposed to thinking about pulling the trigger if we're caught with our pants down and nowhere close to a lynch, and neither should you.

I think that if we had a massclaim (I am NOT suggesting one) I could point you to an episode that each character could be considered scum from their actions. However some characters would be more considered to be town and others scum. When everyone is known scum can start manipulating cases into partial attacks on who the character is.

So yes I got aggressive when gobo made two refrences to the same character in the way he did. Having people start claiming, even jokingly is a horrible thing as it opens the doors to speculation. I was not attempting to instigate a role claim with my actions but to shut down anyone from following suit.

Do you think this makes him scum?

Xtoxm

I am seriously pretending everything you say is in the voice of Hitsugaia. However, it's been a long time since I've seen Bleach, so I have no idea if that's his name or not, or even how to spell it. It's also hard, because I watched in Japanese, and your posts are in English.

Xtoxm is suspicious for suggesting to lynch LlamaFluff on page 3ish or whatever as opposed to later, though. While I find his ideas to be correct, his timing is suspect.

This is why I asked Gobo not to answer that, you have just catorgorically said he wasn't roleclaiming, thus meaning you are not Cleveland.

No. I think reborn was very careful about not stating whether or not his role is Cleveland.

If my role name was "dragon" and I said "Dragons rule!" am I role claiming?

His action was not a character-claim, but that doesn't mean that he wasn't saying something that could be misconstrued as roleclaiming.

KMD

A vote restriction is (likely) not scum.

...why?

What's this dalt bandwagon about? Is this really a bandwagon built over a bandwagon vote on xtoxm?

QFT. While I can see why dalt's vote looks a bit suspicious, I would not be surprised if it was something scum saw and decided to jump upon, with a little more tact than dalt jumping on xtoxm's wagon.

I doubt that there would be voteless scum.

I doubt that we'll be traveling through space in the next 20 years. I doubt we'll lower our dependence on fossil fuels before we find a new energy source.

But it could happen.

I don't like confirming roles based on what that person says. Picture this: day one, every single person says they have this restriction, and eleven people vote for one person. How do you know which is the one with the restriction?

babygirl

I don't see anything overly scummy about ghostwriter at all. Dalt, however is still suspicious to me. Although it was only one day, he has indeed posted since he posted his vote here and left. That makes me wonder if he is avoiding explaining his vote.

unvote, vote dalt

I don't know if you can necesarily conclude that he's avoiding the thread, so this looks like it could be a bit eager to me. I'm also playing with the advanced knowledge that he got replaced.

thinktank

Assumptions are BAD.

Oh god you don't know how much I like you right now.

My only concern with you is that you seem to be solely responding to what others are saying. I would like to see some hard analysis from you, because I think you are making the most sense.

Inspector Godot

I'm not sure if he's faking it or not. If he is then it rules him out of being Mafia in my book. I hadn't even thought of a SK being in this game. The fact that you added that whole SK spiel at the end of your post is duly noted.

In a game of lying and deceit, I'll take your word for it...

Are you accusing Elvis Knits of being a potential SK? What does "duly noted" exactly mean?

Please see RestFermata.

GhostWriter

(and I purposely avoided it last time, hoping it'd blow over)

o_O

To say that is like saying that you feel gobo was a bad enough player to come right out and sneak a claim in, not only at the start of the game, but PREgame.

As much as I'm not a huge fan of breadcrumbing as it is a metagame tactic, I do not find it to be poor play.

RestFermata

RestFermata posts a lot about the Cleavland claim issue, and at this time I don't see her actively trying to do anything other than wait for goborage to speak again. With this specific game, scum will most likely be trying to run down the clock, and this makes her appear to be participating when she is actually not posting much actual content.

I don't like how she waits until post 190, when goborage has been replaced, to bring up all the things she doesn't like about Xtoxm.

I was just thinking earlier today when I was having a snack that BG looked suspicious, but I hadn't noticed the fact that she had avoided the xtoxm wagon until I read you guys' post. Good snooping. It does appear she had a tendency to lightly waltz around accusing him, being very soft on him in general, always preferring to keep the limelight on other players. I also don't like her complete 180. While I too changed my mind, I did it because new information came to light that I hadn't realized before. She seemed to do it for absolutely no reason, or perhaps just because she doesn't want to be alone in her accusation!

I'd be OK with either an xtoxm or BG wagon, as well. If we lynch one and he/she turns out scum, it'll shed more light on the other.

This post is a bandwagon jump of a different kind. Instead of voting for a person, RF quickly agrees with
and congradulates a few members of the town.

Good job spotting that BG/Xtoxm connection. It does seem very suspicious. When I have time to do a reread (probably tomorrow) I'll look into it some more.

IG does it too.

I can definately see this action as eager to be helpful without being helpful. Both IG and RF are players that I have not seen go out of their way to hunt scum, or even for that matter, post much in the way of new content.

reborn

Goborage WASN'T character-claiming!! I know what you're trying to do, what you're trying to make me say, so stop fishing right now!!

Fishing?

I tend to vote a lot in the early game, seriously go meta. Its a fairly logical path too but that doesnt seem something you are concerned about pointing out here.

This basically amounts to "I always act scummy in early game, seriously, go meta."

You can't just say something's a scumtell.

1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.
2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.
3. I think people play how they're gonna play.
4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.

The only legitimate scumtell that transcends games is truthfully claiming scum. Everything else is playstyle.

I'm also going to say that if his vote truly doesn't count, then it really doesn't matter where he puts it, and that alone gives him more than enough grounds to vote every single person in every single post if he felt like it (and was telling the truth).

Farside

Auctioner: She had nine STDs.

Represent.

[Save The Dragons]

If I didn't mention you, I don't really have any questions for you at the moment, nor do I think you're particularly scummy.

Anyone I did mention I've got my eye on at least (thinktank, kmd) to flat out suspicion (RF, IG, reborn, and BG/Xtoxm pre-claim).

I'm going to

Unvote, Vote Reborn

for now. I have my reservations about RF and IG, and I'm still not too keen on the lovers claim (as in, I believe it, but I don't think they're in the clear).

I may have some no-access on Wed. but I don't expect it to last more than 24 hours.

[Save The Dragons]

Yes. The reason I have been so careful about claiming Cleveland or not is because I believe LF is TRYING to ascertain whether I am Cleveland or not (despite his rigorous statements to the contrary), and as previously stated a character claim only helps the scum. Whether LF is scum or not, the real scum would definitely want me to claim, which is why I've been so careful.

I think a lot of people have come to the consensus that this is a null tell and whether or not you are Cleveland doesn't really matter.

But I'd like to point out that not only am I fallible, but I also did most of my read from 2:00 am to 5:00 am in the morning, and may not have been fully awake.

As Mafia players grow in experience, they will typically expand their knowledge of what constitutes scumtell.

If you want to follow the Wiki 100%, then you should check my join date and tell us which one of us would know more about scum tells.

A type of voting which can be a scum tell; when a player votes and then unvotes a particular player repeatedly during a Day, or switches their votes to several different players over the course of the Day, it may be because they are scum trying to find a good place to land their vote on an ProTown player without attracting too much suspicion.

On the other hand, it is hard to use this tell reliably, as some players simply move their vote around a lot, no matter what their Alignment or Role.

Oh. I guess the wiki's on my side. One down...

1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.

WIFOM

2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.

Doesn't mean they always do, as with scum

Not quite. See below.

3. I think people play how they're gonna play.

Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do

Doesn't mean you should policy lynch players who give scum tells.

4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.

WIFOM Also you underestimate the amount of slips people tend to make. Like the amount of WIFOM reasoning you're using now to protect LF

First of all, I'm not protecting LF, and if you think I am, please point out where I am so I can either be corrected or prove you wrong.

Second of all, no, this is not WIFOM. Yes, it's metagaming, but it's not WIFOM. I'm not saying that scum would do this because they're trying to look like town and be like, "why would I do this as scum?"

I'm saying it because it's bloody obvious that if someone where scum, they're not going to do the things that act like it. Notice I'm not going to say they're acting like town. Now that would be a WIFOM,

if it were contained in an argument by a scum describing how said scum is being protown.

Go give that wiki another look through.

The only legitimate scumtell that transcends games is truthfully claiming scum. Everything else is playstyle.

So the lynch is randomly determined every day then, with no other contributing factors?

Selective reading? That explains why the wiki doesn't agree with you

No. You see, some scumtells don't transcend games. They're relevant to the game at hand, and they represent things that shouldn't occur in the game. Not every wishywashy player, not every awkward post, not every lurker, and not every misuse of logic makes the person scum. It's up to the players to figure out in the game which of the "scumtells" are legit and which are not. I don't think you've done that.

You, my friend, have decided that wishy-washyness is a scumtell, and have decided that every single situation is appropriate for wishy-washyness to be a scumtell. You have not decided to actually think for yourself and ask yourself if this is appropriate to our situation at hand. THIS IS WRONG. You cannot just say that something is a scum tell and expect it to be a scum tell in every single game.

So you've decided to go on a smear campaign and attack LF because you think you've caught a scumtell. That is incredibly scummy. You've decided that you're going to ignore logic and reasoning and not look at what LF's votes actually mean (I mean, you posted them, but I don't think you really, truly looked at them, nor did you seem to care after LF explained them).

I'm also going to say that if his vote truly doesn't count, then it really doesn't matter where he puts it, and that alone gives him more than enough grounds to vote every single person in every single post if he felt like it (and was telling the truth).

No. Even though his vote doesn't count, it still holds sway with the town. Because he has everyones attention, he has to be careful where he puts his vote. With great power comes great responsibility.

At this point, I'm just actually saying that if I did:

Unvote Vote: RestFermata

Unvote Vote: Llama Fluff

Unvote Vote: Babygirl

Unvote Vote: Reborn

Then I'm doing a lot more harm than he is.

I'm also saying that the wishy washy "scumtell" that you oh so love doesn't really apply in this situation, because his vote doesn't count (allegedly), so I don't see why he's being scummy, when he could accomplish the same thing if he said:

Unpizza, Pizza: Kmd

Unpizza, Pizza: Kloud

[Save The Dragons]

elvis - you'd be right if he'd given a case and then voted for me and then I'd voted for him.

BUT he didn't. He just dismissed my argument with poor points and then voted for me without cause. That is without question scummy, surely? And furthermore I only did FoS.

You can't learn mafia from a textbook.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm sure a scum would speculate who they're going to kill early in-game IN THE GAME THREAD.

Now that's a WIFOM.

If anyone can give me a better definition of WIFOM than the wiki, I'd be glad to hear it, and I'll probably concede my WIFOM points.

Entirely WIFOM. Scum excuse scum tells by calling them too obvious and saying scum would never do such a thing.

I'm talking theory, not practice. I'm saying that scum who pay attention or even scum who think logically are going to avoid doing things like draw attention to themselves. I'm not saying they're going to avoid it to be like the town.

Basically, if I get caught being overeager in one game, I'm going to be less likely to throw myself out there in my next game as scum. I guess I worded my statement wrong. I apologize. I did not mean to imply that all scum avoided scumtells.

Second of all, no, this is not WIFOM. Yes, it's metagaming, but it's not WIFOM. I'm not saying that scum would do this because they're trying to look like town and be like, "why would I do this as scum?"

But scum do things that are seen as obvious scumtells and they DO say "why would I do that as scum?"

Yes, and that would be an example of WIFOM.

Nowhere do I say scum do these things, and then claim "why would I do that?" because I'm not talking about actual events, I'm talking about metagame, which Reborn opened pandora's box for when he suggested that wishy-washy people must be scum. He's using something that could be helpful for the town and turning it on its side. This is the meat and potatoes of my argument. The WIFOM spiel is more like a glass of wine.

If we set aside the WIFOM parts (which I'll admit, I'm not so keen on myself since my understanding of WIFOM is fuzzy at best), how does the rest of my argument fair, kmd?

[Save The Dragons]

But as to STD saying you should explain why something is a scumtell in any given situation, I definitely agree. Because more information is better. Often more is gained from the discussion of such things.

You're my favorite.

[Save The Dragons]

I have a problem with every single person deciding that it's more important to random vote than to at least acknowledge this discussion if not for Goborage's lines than for LlamaFluff's announcement of his posting restriction. Nobody said in their first post anything about either. You don't have to random vote...

Can you rephrase this? I don't understand what you're getting at. I apologize for not being able to, but I can't, and I'd really like to.

No one even mentioned either of the two things that llama brought up. I thought that was weird.

You also mentioned that gobo was a bad player for trickling a claim in. I disagree that he's a bad player for breadcrumbing.

As for the o_O, I don't think that you should be ignoring things and hoping they'd blow over.

[Save The Dragons]

I ignored Llama because I knew that wasn't a claim. I tried to ignore it, because, at the time that it was beginning, I felt it was obvious, and that no one would follow his(wrong) way of thinking about it. I did not care so much that he had begun to breadcrumb, but that he had done it in a situation that it did not make sense, and then pushing it so hard. This was all stated in the total of my posts (except the "blown over" part. That was not explained before, not clearly, at least...)

1. This is only half of Llama's post.
2. I don't really think that people are scummy for ignoring a post with potential information, since everyone did it, and not everyone is scum.

This is an example of a scumtell that clearly doesn't fit for this particular game.

What is the advantage of breadcrumbing in a theme game, where scum often have safeclaims anyway? Sorry, this is just a strategic question from a newbie.

I just don't think it makes a player bad if they breadcrumb. I think they should try to contain all their plays to non-meta plays, but that doesn't mean that it's bad. I think there are advantages and disadvantages (that I can't really think of right now).

[Save The Dragons]

Yay for extension.

Yay for being happy with my vote.

[Save The Dragons]

Well if you have no case, why do you feel that think specifically of all people needs to be looked at. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just asking, why thinktank?

Because he's doing such a damn good job of going under the radar. I know that must sound stupid but he's probably our least talked about player and no one really minds.

Because going under the radar is not equal to scum. I'd love it if he posts more, but I don't think it's appropriate to accuse him of being scum because he's going under the radar. You should construct an argument from the content of his posts if you want to convince me.

ok you guys accuse me for being scum when I hop on bandwagons, and then I vote for someone who ISNT on a bandwagon and you don't like that move either? make up your minds people

You should vote for who you think is scum, regardless of wagoning or not wagoning.

@ Xtoxm: Has Elvis_Knits done anything specific to earn your vote, or does it come from suspicion on dalt? If you have already answered this question, I apologize, and would ask that you direct me to a post where you have.

It seems that the people you think are town I think are scum, and the people you think are scum I think are town.

[Save The Dragons]

StD: Posts are somewhat overly verbose but comes of as pro town.

For every word you don't post, I'll post three.

Can we at least not have thinktank die? Deadline's in less than one week, and I don't want someone to jump the fence right before and kill him. If you really think he's scum, you can keep them on there, but I'd like to see those votes removed in the near future because it doesn't seem like you're voting for him because he's scum, just for what appears to be his playstyle.

[Save The Dragons]

Mod (and players): I will have no access on the 26-28th.

I am okay with an IG lynch, as I do find him suspicious, although I'd like to read over his posts again before I commit.

I am, of course, still happy with lynching reborn. I realize my argument was not worded very well, but I still find his play to be suspect.

I look forward to xtoxm's next post.

[Save The Dragons]

@ Xtoxm: I don't really think that your post shows reasons where you want EK lynched.

Um, sorry? Yes I have. I have stated suspicion for Dalt (Now yourself) and Crub.

I am suspicious of xtoxm for not looking at any players besides llama as scum.

This is a direct mistruth about me, and makes me very happy with my current vote on you, not on Llama.

That was the only portion of the post that related to EK. What exactly is your case on EK/dalt?

[Save The Dragons]

Mod, can you fix that quote, please? That's supposed to be said by Xtoxm.

Thanks!

[Save The Dragons]

I am suspicious of xtoxm for not looking at any players besides llama as scum.

Mod: This was not said by me, it was said by EK, I think. In xtoxm's post, it was in a quote that was unlabeled. Could you correct this?

Thanks again!

Fixed.

[Save The Dragons]

The above refers to post 423

[Save The Dragons]

I think you're scum, so blowing your brains out would be helpful to the town, so...

Pizza: reborn

[Save The Dragons]

reborn

Goborage WASN'T character-claiming!! I know what you're trying to do, what you're trying to make me say, so stop fishing right now!!

Fishing?

I tend to vote a lot in the early game, seriously go meta. Its a fairly logical path too but that doesnt seem something you are concerned about pointing out here.

This basically amounts to "I always act scummy in early game, seriously, go meta."

You can't just say something's a scumtell.

1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.
2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.
3. I think people play how they're gonna play.
4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.

The only legitimate scumtell that transcends games is truthfully claiming scum. Everything else is playstyle.

I'm also going to say that if his vote truly doesn't count, then it really doesn't matter where he puts it, and that alone gives him more than enough grounds to vote every single person in every single post if he felt like it (and was telling the truth).

And this

And he posted a response that I do not think I responded to (because he put his response in a quote, and I missed it). One hour, when I have time, I'll look back on it and make sure I understand what he said and respond to it. Sorry for the long overdue post, Reborn. I promise I'll get it in before I leave.

[Save The Dragons]

There is no substitute for a clear, consisce argument, presented with proper analysis. It should be more than just throwing accusations of misrepresentation and faulty logic around. I realize now that perhaps my case on you, although there, is hard to see, and I want to present it to you, fully, with new material. My sentiment in these posts may seem hostile, and that is because I feel entitled to it because I do not appriciate it when people insult me. Although my join date says I'm over 4 years here, I've only been here off and on for about three years total, and I'm coming back from a long hiatus right now. I did not mean to lord my experience over you, since clearly I do not know what experience you have at other sites or in person. I should not have used that as an argument, and I apologize.

That said, I plan on tearing you a new one, argument style.

Here's what you've said about LlamaFluff's votes, and I wish I had said this earlier.

1) Gob (for thinking of character claiming - this after ONE Cleveland quote I might add, and right before he full claims his role)
2) Xtoxm (let's face it, this is pretty OMGUS, although I'm not sure I like Xtoxmm that much myself)
3) Ghostwriter (post 100... trying to make sense of this... go and look back, I guarantee headache)
4) unvotes a couple of posts later (post 104, but who's counting?)
5) Back on goborage (basically because goborage was afk I think)

1. A vote in the random voting stage. I commend LF on having something to say instead of "Let me roll a die. It landed on 6. Clearly Steve is scum."
2. Xtoxm was suspicious, as you said.
3. I'll give you this one, I don't really know where he's going.
4. I think he was correcting a mistake he made, but he can speak for himself on this issue.
5. Yes, because goborage was his top suspect. Wow. He's going back to his original suspect.

My god, four votes? One of them in the random voting stage, so three total up to this point in the game? Can anyone legitimately tell me that four votes in 12 pages in a game is wishy-washy? Hell, I've voted more than four times in this game, even if you ignore Crub's votes. You accused him of wishywashy-ness, I say you're accusation is full of crap.

Your case is weakened even more when we revisit the point where Llama's vote does not count. Clearly, he does not have to follow any standards of voting, because his vote is merely a word. I know you did not like my pizza analogy, but it is correct, because in his situation, there's no difference. My question to you: How can you be wishywashy with votes if you don't even have one?

The other part of your case against LlamaFluff, where Llamafluff gets on Gob's case for the Cleveland incident,

I know I did. That was intentional for the reason of character claiming being bad. Was I 100% beyond a doubt sure that gobo had just fullclaimed? No of course not. The thing was he was being very careless with his role if he is Cleveland, and could of been trying to instigate a mass character claim. In this setup I view character claim as a bad thing, so I wanted to shut it down before it even started to begin. I dont understand why that is a bad thing to try and do.

This is just so ridiculous. Even if I was Cleveland, how would saying "I'm Cleveland" be fullclaiming?! The amount of quotes flying around on Day 1 (evil monkey, anybody?) and you choose a Cleveland quote and then back it up with a misquote later on. You're trying to justify it with some irrelevent reasoning that makes you seem pro-town. I don't buy into Xtoxm's argument that we should lynch you because your ability is bad, but I still think you're a good play, because you're incredibly scummy.

I'm not sure how you can call his wanting to stop the claim from occuring to be ridiculous. Instead of arguing against his point, you suggested that the claiming of a character would trigger a fullclaim. Llamafluff is clearly suggesting that he does not think Gobo fullclaimed. I'm not sure you two meant the same thing when you said "full claim." I personally don't see how one character claim will instigate a mass character claim, but I also can't say that I know it would not.

You seem to think it's impossible for LF to have been confused. I think it's pretty impossible for him not to have been, the way he was going at it.

The difference between you and him is that in his mistakes and his playstyle, I believe he's actively going after people he thinks are scum.

I believe that you, however, are choosing to accuse him, back your case by something on the wiki, make light of his confusion, and finger him. This is why I wish to lynch you.

[Save The Dragons]

On a related note, I just ate pizza.

STD don't worry about offending me in mafia... the whole point of this is that we are arguing, and I'm not going to hold back so I certainly wouldn't wish anyone else to.

I'll answer your case in the morning, although once again it seems to be a case whereby you say that I'm scum for going for LF.

1. I held back I didn't feel it was pertinent to the game to rant on how you insulted me when in reality you didn't.

2. I'm not going to be here in the morning, so unless something drastic happens, I probably won't change my vote. I'll try to check before I leave, but I can't make any promises (and I'm pretty much gone until deadline).

My other suspicions:

Giving the town a lovers couple and a townie that can't vote is really bad for the town. I do not wish to outguess the mod, but I will say that I will be disappointed if I find this is the case.

That being said, I think it is likely that the statement "One of Xtoxm or Babygirl is scum" is true.

Xtoxm for his page 3 advocacy of a LF lynch, and Babygirl for her one paragraph posts before bandwagon hopping.

However, there's always the possibility that if they're town, then the mafia will kill them tonight, so I figure we need not waste our time discussing what ifs if they're likely not to survive the night.

I would be surprised if KMD, Kloud, or Ghost Rider turned up to be scum. I would be less surprised if LlamaFluff, but even so, he's not on my list right now. Thinktank's a bit of an enigma to me, but his play is smart and his actions seem sincere, so I don't think he's scum right now.

Still wondering about EK. I'm neutral on her.

RF seems like she could be scum, because I haven't seen her go out of her way to catch scum, but this statement seems sincere:

And yeah, you're right, I'm not a very good scumhunter. But I am trying. And maybe that makes me look like I'm posting a whole lot of nothing, trying to appear helpful when I'm not, but I don't think that's an excuse to just sit back and plain old not even try to be helpful.

I thought IG was suspicious, but he claimed, so I don't really think so anymore, since I'm willing to beleive his claim for now.

So, like I said in my first (well, technically second) post, my list was:

Reborn
RestFermata
IG
Xtoxm
Babygirl

I currently think that the scum are found in this list:

Reborn
RestFermata
Elvis_Knits
Babygirl
Xtoxm

Maybe IG, but I'm willing to trust his claim for now.

Althought I don't think all of the above are scum, I think they're more likely than everyone else.

[Save The Dragons]

The last time I post tonight is probably the last time I post this day, so speak now or forever hold your peace. I'll probably be keeping my vote on Reborn, although I may unvote and try to make it home before the deadline ends, but I kind of don't see that happening.

@ Babygirl and Restfermata: I hope your hands get better soon.

[Save The Dragons]

I think that you attacking me and BG is silly.

I think attacking you today would be silly.

I think discussing it tomorrow is not a bad idea. I'm not so keen on lynching either of you unless I know fairly certainly that one of you is scum, but based on both your play, I'd say that it's not a far cry from the truth.

I would be surprised if

KMD

, Kloud, or Ghost Rider turned up to be scum. I would be less surprised if LlamaFluff, but even so, he's not on my list right now. Thinktank's a bit of an enigma to me, but his play is smart and his actions seem sincere, so I don't think he's scum right now.

KMD's right here, and if you're wondering why he's not in other parts of my post, well, I believe the above quoted portion has something to do with that.

[Save The Dragons]

And if you would like me to list ways in which I find KMD to be town, I'd start by telling you one of them is on this page.

[Save The Dragons]

Is Ghost Rider even a thing, or am I just completely illiterate?

I apologize.

Would you mind telling me your case against EK, or directing me to where you posted it?

[Save The Dragons]

Then my next question is what's wrong with a reborn lynch.

[Save The Dragons]

Fair enough.

My third question: Why does a true gunslinger never forget the face of their father?

[Save The Dragons]

or am I just completely illiterate?

You shouldn't ask me to read things.

[Save The Dragons]

Okay, this is pretty much it for me. I'm keeping my vote on reborn. See you all on D2.

[Save The Dragons]

I think that you attacking me and BG is silly.

I think attacking you today would be silly.

I think discussing it tomorrow is not a bad idea. I'm not so keen on lynching either of you unless I know fairly certainly that one of you is scum, but based on both your play, I'd say that it's not a far cry from the truth.

What did you think of this, Xtoxm? I know it's not really a damning case against you or very important right now, but I'm curious.

[Save The Dragons]

This game has turned into a farce.

Unvote

.

Didn't I say stay away from reborn?

Since I don't know either your alignment or reborn's...

seeing as STD and LF have formed a power block I don't think I'm going to be able to convince anyone about them until we have some night info on the table.

This power block has only one vote and a good reason to suggest you're scum.

I've said why I think she's scum.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember asking you for this info and I didn't get it.

Also, I noticed xtoxm is modding a lovers game. It seems like an odd coincidence that he got a lover role in this game. Coincidences do happen and I don't know why scum would even lie about having a role like that. So I don't knwo if it's likely at all that he's lying. Pretty unlikely, actually. But I just want that bit of info out there.

So you're saying that BG and Xtoxm are scum partners who have claimed to be lovers? BG claimed first, mind you, so if you're insinuating that Xtoxm is lying about being a lover, you're saying that BG is scum, too.

Oh my GOD I can't believe I'm actually saying this but I wish STD was here!

I love you, too.

Reborn is right, I'd rather lynch EK than:

1. Expose another power role
2. Mass claim
3. No lynch

I'm starting more and more to think that EK is scum. Her little metagaming snippets sound reachy I'd rather lynch a townie than to be caught with our pants down at deadline with all our votes on our doctor/cop.

This is not to say I don't find her to be scummy. I do have some reservations, and I'm probably going to withhold my vote at the moment until I'm more sure.

God, this is basically a really painful, drawn-out version of a mass claim. And guess what! I bet everyone's going to claim pro-town! Surprise! Guess there are no scum in this game, case closed.

I <3 you right now.

While I currently suspect reborn to be town, I could easily see SK (based on name and the phrase "death ray or whatever"), and I'm going to be a little wary if we see more than one night kill.

Although I do think that it is possible, if not likely, that one of the lovers is scum, I am not so keen on lynching them until day two, when we have a little more info, especially since Xtoxm confuses me and I want to at least hear from BG's replacement. I can support a lynch, but I'm also a little hesitant to knock off two of our players if I'm more convinced other people are scum.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm not under the impression that anyone is doing so.

[Save The Dragons]

There's a lot of complaining going on here. I'm not sure what RF, STD or reborn hope to accomplish by complaining and calling this game a farce and a botch. It just makes me want to stop posting. Which we can't afford to do.

??? This comment was in jest, and merely an observation. I hardly see how it's complaining. I find the fact that it's turned into what it has interesting.

Re: some of my meta comments -- I assume STD means when I said kloud wasn't posting in the game but browsing the forum. I stand by it because 1)It's scummy not to be active in the game near deadline 2) It made him post almost immediately upon being called out.

I'll give you that, but you tried to pin him as a lurker who haunted the Coney Island forum, looking at this thread but not posting, when he has two other threads in Coney Island.

Yes, he was lurker. No, he probably wasn't avoiding the game. Once someone decided to attack me for posting in a Mish Mash thread but not in the game, and it pissed me off, because it was irrelevant.

It's how you presented your argument that I find suspicious.

I'm referring to this one as well:

Re: my point about xtoxm modding a lover's game -- I know it's a far-fetched gambit, and I admitted it's probably nothing. I just noticed it, saw it was aweird coincidence and couldn't stop myself from commenting.

Again, you presented a fairly weak argument in meta, as an attempt to paint a negative picture. It sounds to me like you're desperate.

As for lynching: I don't think we need to randomly lynch people until we get the scum, nor do I think reborn's advocating that.

However, our lynch is our only (known) tool for removing the scum, and if we do nothing, then we're at their mercy.

[Save The Dragons]

More on this later, I gotta go.

[Save The Dragons]

The meta points was me grabbing at straws as we approached a deadline within a few hours and all my main suspects were gone. I agree they weren't great points. They were meant to generate discussion more than anything.

I can see this as a possibility, so until I get the time to look back over your posts, I probably won't be voting for you.

I'm opposed to voting the lovers just because I'm not a big fan of the possibility of losing two townies, but I still feel that had they not claimed, their play definitely could have merited a vote from me, so I'm torn on this issue, too.

Even worse, I'm starting to pack and I'm leaving on Sunday for school, so I'm not going to have a lot of time to do the things I want to with this game, but I'll try to get it done before the deadline hits.

[Save The Dragons]

Here's two reasons:

Xtoxm is suspicious for suggesting to lynch LlamaFluff on page 3ish or whatever as opposed to later, though. While I find his ideas to be correct, his timing is suspect.

And:

Your case on E_K consists of not liking dalt, who flaked, bandwagoning you + one statement by E_K.

[Save The Dragons]

No, you haven't. You've gone over the logic in your action, and I agree that it makes sense, and had I been there, I probably would have suggested that it would be a good plan if we were caught at the deadline with no feasible option. But I have no clue why you did it as a page 3 plan of action.

On your second point, I have no idea what you meant by that, and after you fix that sentence, I'd like you to possibly give examples.

Because if you don't, then all I had to say to your post was that you were generally scummy, and there's not much you can argue against it.

I'd also like to point out that I never said you deserved to be voted by me. I said you could have merited a vote, and you asked why, so I told you why. I'm focusing on E_K right now, and you're not even the lover I would vote if I wanted to vote a lover right now, so I'm not sure why you're getting uppity about this.

[Save The Dragons]

FOS: RestFermata

for being difficult.

[Save The Dragons]

That was a joke. Please tell me you understood that. Please tell me you did.

So this is how you respond when someone asks you to clarify your position? Awesome. If you want to counter my points, then I'll talk to you. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, but if you can't prove that then I'm going to assume I'm right.

Right now, I really cannot find a case on E_K. I've asked several times for a case on E_K, no one could provide. I looked back on E_K's posts, and the only damning this are what RestFermata just said, and what I said about the meta stuff being desperate, and only RF's is something that overly suspicious.

[Save The Dragons]

For the record, I <3 sarcasm, and encourage it in certain situations.

[Save The Dragons]

I have not played many games with inventors...I would like to hear from reborn.

[Save The Dragons]

KMD, who do you think is scum?

[Save The Dragons]

I would be sad if he answered my question only with names.

[Save The Dragons]

You're right.

[Save The Dragons]

I am definitely not a fan of xtoxm's flavor of the week voting style (are you going to vote me again if I say that there's 3 points against you now?). It seriously is starting to seem like he's throwing shit against the wall and seeing what sticks.

His case against me was non-existent.
His case against E_K was weak at best.
His case against reborn does not even try to include everything that has happened before page 35.

The problem is, your playstyle at the moment is getting quite emotional rather than rational, so I'm trying to think as to whether you're sowing the seeds of discord or just genuinely playing...wierd.

However, for now I will

Vote: Xtoxm

, until you convince me otherwise or die.

I want to know what thinktank is thinking right now.

[Save The Dragons]

If you knew anything about me, you'd know i'm town this game.

Did you think this statement would do anything? Well, other than the fact that it makes me more confident my vote's in the right place.

Let me tell you something about me. I respond better to facts and arguments rather than meta. In fact, I'm not a huge fan of meta. And for the time being, since I've been gone, I'm kind of happy because I can play meta free. I have no intentions of looking up past games you've been in and seeing how you act because it's none of my concern. I want you to either rebutt my arguments or bitchslap me upside the head with facts that state that I was wrong. You clearly think I'm wrong. Prove it.

[Save The Dragons]

I think it's time we killed the lovers, because it's pretty clear to me that one is scum.

Sorry, rockatansky.

[Save The Dragons]

Townies, take note of who is trying to get the lovers lynched today.

thinktank, me, IG, reborn, LlamaFluff...anyone I'm missing?

I think we should put you up there on that list too, since you're the one who convinced me.

[Save The Dragons]

It's classic avoidance. He had his chance to speak to me about what I want to talk about (he still does, mind you, and I might take my vote off of him if he can convince me).

However, since he's proving that he's going to be nothing more than dead weight and a pain in the ass instead of trying to play the game, I'm getting more and more happy with my vote.

[Save The Dragons]

I want BG back.

I want Xtoxm back.

[Save The Dragons]

Here's two reasons:

Xtoxm is suspicious for suggesting to lynch LlamaFluff on page 3ish or whatever as opposed to later, though. While I find his ideas to be correct, his timing is suspect.

And:

Your case on E_K consists of not liking dalt, who flaked, bandwagoning you + one statement by E_K.

I am definitely not a fan of xtoxm's flavor of the week voting style (are you going to vote me again if I say that there's 3 points against you now?). It seriously is starting to seem like he's throwing shit against the wall and seeing what sticks.

His case against me was non-existent.
His case against E_K was weak at best.
His case against reborn does not even try to include everything that has happened before page 35.

Explain.

[Save The Dragons]

I did not say careless = scum, I say if you were town, you had been careless.

Well, scum knowing you can't vote is very bad, be you town.

Consider this: 8 players alive, 3 scum, 5 townies, you are one of them. Town cannot lynch scum. Scum have won by this point.

So even if you are telling the truth, you are still useful to get rid off, anf lyncing will be the only way, as you have such an anti-town role. And, we might get scum.

The point is, that his presence moves the day we reach lylo forward by an entire day. So there is absolutley nothing lost in lynching him, and a very high potential gain (scum day one), and I found his claiming the role suspicious, because a voteless shouldn't want to get his role out there, however a scum with that role, or even that fakeclaim, WOULD want to.

You have stated "we might get scum" and much later that scum would come out and claim voteless before town would.

The phrase we might get scum seems like an after thought. From my point of veiw, it looked like you were attacking LF for being an unhelpful role before you were attacking him for being scum.

The other concern I have is that you directed your focus solely on him. Did you think anyone else was suspicious at the time?

Well, i'm just really getting the feel that she's scum.

On your second point, it's only one small thing rather consistent scummieness, that gives someone away. I've already said this already.

Comments like these seem like cop-outs to me. I want to know the meaning behind them. Is your case mostly just something general?

Just for the record, and I don't think you're thinking this, but I have no opinion one way or the other about your name claim.

Unvote

I think I've lost my head for a moment. I want to take some time to think, this game is confusing me. I don't see it necessary to lynch the lover pair right now.

Xtoxm, is there anything else about reborn that you think makes him suspicious?

[Save The Dragons]

I missed the word "sometimes" from what you quoted off me.

Actually, could you do me a favor and rewrite the quote including any omitted words? I think it may have a different meaning than I thought it did, and it would affect the answer to your question:

What do you mean when you say case being something general? I don't really understand.

[Save The Dragons]

Are you saying sometimes it's one small thing rather "than" consistent scuminess?

[Save The Dragons]

Simulpost FTW.

There we go!

Okay. Now that you've said that, I'll retract my question about general scumminess.

oh wow, I missed KMD's post.

I nominate KMD to get reborn's device.

KMD: would I be correct in stating that you're of the opinion that one of the lovers is scum, but it's not a good idea to deal with them right now? I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but I noticed you found them suspicious, but did not place a vote down.

Setup reasons are meta reasons so I'm not big on them, but I will admit that they can help us decipher the odds of our particular lover pair to contain scum. However, I think we should keep them off the table for day 1, especially when we know very little of our setup.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm currently of the mind that lynching the lovers is a bad day 1 play no matter what WIFOM arguments arise. I'm really only interested in killing the lovers if I'm convinced that one of them is scum.

I'm not sure yet exactly what to think about reborn, clearly I've had my suspicions of him in the past, and since his inventor claim comes under interesting circumstances, I want to take a closer look at that and see what I can figure out.

[Save The Dragons]

I forgot to mention the part where I'm exhausted from driving for hours and moving in, and after some sleep I'll probably be more helpful.

But my access might not be so great in the next few days as I'm settling into school again.

[Save The Dragons]

Reborn's claim was pretty much what suggested to me he was town. If there's doubt on the validity of the claim, then I'm back to my previous suspicions. It seems a little strange to me. It sounds like he's covering up for his mistake.

I am not opposed to a Reborn lynch, considering his past actions and his current suspicion, and I'd rather have that than nothing.

Vote: Reborn

I'm a little wary of Thinktank at the moment. Something about him is bugging me.

[Save The Dragons]

His tunnelvision on lynching the lovers even thought atleast one of us is garanteed to be town?

His tunnelvision in general, as it seems he does not have much to say about the game other than what he is currently doing.

Could it be the fact that he doesn't go out of the way to voice any opinions and even when he does, he barely backs it up at all?

Yeah, that's been interesting.

Re: Reborn

The only answer I got to my suspicions was the claim, and if I can't believe that, then I don't have an answer to my suspicions.

Just remember not to overlook the Lovers tomorrow, and take another look at all the claimed roles - I expect LF to be roleblocked now I'm getting lynched (obvious scum move to prevent me being confirmed with the dodgy claim was to RB me and then get me lynched tomorrow), so if he says that don't think that he's obv. scum.

Roleblocker? Do we know of the presence a scum roleblocker or did you pretty much just confess to being in a scum group with a roleblocker?

[Save The Dragons]

He claimed intention to use a deathray while speculating about what names for investigative and medical (if memory serves correctly) could be. I dont think someone would ever fakeclaim a role that they were not sure of how it worked, or even something as complex as an inventor (WIFOM I know).

Keep in mind that what he originally claimed was not a traditional inventor.

And seriously, no. Scum lovers are not possible. Not in this situation. The scum are not going to be attached with a cripling attritube like that...In the least, everyone else would be VT's.

(And i'm saying that from a 3rd party opinion, excluding the knowledge I have that i'm town)

Or the scum have powers, or there's 4 of them, or there's a mafia traitor in our midsts...all of these situations could warrant the use of scum lovers. As much as I think there's no way in hell a mod would put two lovers as scum, I could see it happen.

I can't shake this town feel I get from him though.

Out of curiosity, is there anyone who doesn't have a pro-town feel to you?

I think xtoxm has multiple personalities.

QFT.

Unvote, Vote Thinktank

I guess I'm fine waiting for a confirmation, but I'm not sold on reborn being town yet.

I really want to pizza someone...

[Save The Dragons]

On a side note, I don't like the pizza ban. =(

I agree. We must not inhibit free speech light that. FIGHT THE OPPRESSION!

Pizza: Mod

I can't believe we're actually having this conversation, but it's awesome.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm fine with my vote. If he were a power role this close to deadline, then I would have hoped he would have said something by now, since I can't see this wagon derailing otherwise.

[Save The Dragons]

These might be slightly out of order, forgive me I should be working right now, but I'm putting it off. A bit of this is stream of consciousness, so if I seem a little waffly on the whole reveal/no reveal issue, it's cuz I'm still debating it in my mind.

If LF confirms someone it could mean they get killed by mafia sooner...

But if LF dies before revealing his innocent, then his investigation is lost. Which is much worse, IMO.

EK's quote looks like she's on the fence, not trying to take a side. Subtly, she's asking for the information to be revealed (by suggesting that it's worse if the person dies). I don't like how she did the post.

Is it.. because... Bonnie is pregnant so if she dies her baby dies with her and you are a massive paedo so... right... I don't understand the other way around though.

Can we please not speculate about this? I like not having nightmares.

It is a problem. The third scum is keeping an extremely low profile or just playing really pro-town.

This also makes me suspect STD further because he is the one in this game I consider most capable of doing something like this.

*facepalm*

The reason there are similarities in the lists is because there are certain people who we're not looking to lynch - LF, myself, kmd (look at him again tomorrow), and you. That doesn't leave too many candidates so the lists are going to be down to personal opinion and will have some overlap.

This leaves us with:

STD
Xtoxm
Rock
Kloud
EK
RF
GW

Since you've disproven your meta by keeping EK alive (this is not to say that lynching EK would be a good thing, or that I would want to) I don't see how you can use the argument she's pro-town because she claimed vanilla townie. If she's scum, then hello, she's still around, and claiming vanilla townie clearly was a safe option to take. I think there are other reasons that suggest EK is pro-town, but I do not want to see the first reason anymore.

I know I'm town, my role PM says so.

The lovers are, in my opinion, most likely to be 1 scum and 1 town. I'm not sure on my stance of when to lynch them.

With those four gone, I have Kloud, RF, and GW, with at least one of those being town, but at the moment, I cannot decipher which one.

That said, I do not think we should be playing an elimination game, because when we push the scum aside and get comfortable with them, then we lose. I am currently not suspicious of a claimed power role (or KMD), but I will continually question them.

I call this OMGUS once-removed.

*shakes head*

If you're scum this could be interesting because you're protecting the claimed power roles for no reason. Makes me think you could be scum with Llama.

Scum would like nothing more than this information. But so do town. It helps both. I see this as a null tell.

But I do think that the information should be revealed sooner than later, if it is to be revealed at all. It makes no sense to say "I'm going to reveal this towards the end of the day" because

1. The scum/town can't react to it any differently
2. You don't know how or when the day will end
3. More info out in the open means more discussion about it

If the benefits to town outweigh the benefits to scum, then reveal info. If they don't, or if you feel they'll be better revealed at a later time and that you'll survive until said time, then keep it secret.

No, you could be a scum Inventor.

Very unlikely. Possible, but I don't see it.

IG should NOT be telling us who he is protecting. We have no reason to know.

QFT

Llama should NOT tell us who is confirmed yet. The scum will want to NK some one who we aren't going to lynch. The scum gain more from knowing this than we do at this point. If llama or his confirmed town are about to be lynched, that is when he should tell us his information.

If Llama dies in the night, his investigation dies with him. I think if we think that Llama will die, he should reveal, but if we suspect that he can make it, then he can hide it for now.

I think the town gain more from knowing this. All it does is gives scum another target to sift through. They've already lost a kill last night, so they're going to be frantically targeting the power roles and praying they can hit them before they're utterly hosed. A confirmed innocent may not pique their interests at this point.

However...it does give any protective roles another target to try and protect. Hmmmm...I don't know. It's up to LF if he wants to give away this info.

As I said already, llama can let us know if we are about to mislynch this person.

Hmm. This is probably the best course of action, although I'm not convinced that the town is hindered as much as you say if LF comes out with it right away.

All in all, I think we really need to get into the habit of making cases (sorry xtoxm ). Otherwise it's too easy for scum to throw BS around and confuse us. I am going to go write a post on my thoughts on some people, with hopefully some meatiness. Mmm, meaty.

QFT, except for the meat part.

Vegetarian here.

[Save The Dragons]

And guys, look at how many people are supporting the "1 scum 1 town" theory on lovers.

Bodyguard < Doctor
Random JOAT < Any of the four powers JOAT can do < Non-random JOAT
Inventor = not that great.
We have 1 confirmed townie (thinktank) and 1 claimed townie.

If both the lovers are town, we're fucked, unless the scum are neutered significantly.

Couple that with BG's play, which many people found suspicious. I cannot personally rule out this position.

I don't think I'm going to convince you. Could you paraphrase what BG said pre-game?

[Save The Dragons]

*facepalm*

Oh?

Really, what makes my argument so bad, STD?

I should clarify that you are not the only one I wanted to facepalm to, but I just picked that particular post.

Because I envision a future in which people will say:

"Oh fuck! We're close to deadline! And we have no idea who to lynch!"
"Hey, remember those gut feelings we had on STD at the beginning of the day?"
"Yeah! Let's lynch him without actually providing information for him to defend against, so he's trapped in a corner and forced to tip his hand!"

Yeah, I'll admit that self-preservation is kicking in here, but I'm not going to stand for an argument against me driven on nothing but gut feelings and vibes.

[Save The Dragons]

You really want to kill Rock today, don't you?

Have you given a Rock specific case, or are your suspicions mostly on BG?

I'm inclined to believe that Rock is the scum and Xtoxm is the town if the pairing is 1 scum and 1 town (which, of course, I currently suspect to be true).

I want to know what Xtoxm thinks of BG's pregame discussion before I place a vote anywhere (and I don't know if I will after that just yet).

[Save The Dragons]

Vote: Rock

That's 4 of 6, if I'm not mistaken.

I concur a bit with reborn. You're pretty much confirmed pro-town at this point (unless we're dealing with a REALLY funky set up, so your opinions hold merit, and I am curious what you have to say, other than "look at these people tomorrow."

Thanks, KMD, for providing the case.

[Save The Dragons]

What do you guys think about the possibility of Rock failing to send in his night action in time?

Unlikely, if you're referring to a kill, because the other members of the mafia will most likely submit something if they're paying attention.

Not a MC, but RF, STD, Kloud, and KMD should all say whether or not they could have stopped a kill last night, imo.

I concur. I really don't think this reveals much, and I think it will help us determine GW's alignment.

However, I agree with reborn and think we should wait until tommorrow to do this. We'll have more info from night.

Sorry if some one said this already but maybe GW WAS the NK target.

Exactly.

Which is one more reason why Rock is today's play.

What do you guys think about the possibility of Rock failing to send in his night action in time?

Unlikely, if you're referring to a kill, because the other members of the mafia will most likely submit something if they're paying attention.

Not a MC, but RF, STD, Kloud, and KMD should all say whether or not they could have stopped a kill last night, imo.

I concur. I really don't think this reveals much, and I think it will help us determine GW's alignment.

However, I agree with reborn and think we should wait until tommorrow to do this. We'll have more info from night.

Sorry if some one said this already but maybe GW WAS the NK target.

Exactly.

Which is one more reason why Rock is today's play.

But in that case we lose Xtoxm, all-but-confirmed town, to discuss it with us.

I think the benefits of waiting outweigh the risks of revealing now. If most people think we need to reveal, then I will.

[Save The Dragons]

Really, if no-one claims a way to have prevented a kill in another way, I think it's worth lynching him, because I really can't see scum killing him last night...

I just find it highly unlikely that GW was targeted for an NK with all the claimed power roles just sitting there waiting to be slaughtered.

These ideas aren't going to disappear tomorrow. I too am more sure of Rock right now than GW.

Lol, STD. You said that twice...

That post definitely looked longer than it should have

I am assuming your not cliaming of it means you did nothing to prevent a kill last night..?

You should not assume.

Why? he's not exactly going to go anywhere, is he?

Neither is GW.

That's not what I was referring to, STD. I meant if we lynch Rock today and discuss GW tomorrow, we will lose a pretty much confirmed town presence in the discussion, which is rather valuable. As for revealing, I'll do it when there's a town consensus to do it.

Well, yeah. That is a downside. The thing is, other people seem quite likely to be town, so I don't think we are at a lack of pro-town input.

STD said we should do it tomorrow, though, Xtoxm.

I'm kinda waffling on this issue. I need more than 5 seconds to make up my mind.

Pros: We can discuss as a town. Day is longer, Xtoxm can contribute, it doesn't reveal that much more info...
Cons: Scum know which roles have the ability to block them, protection has more choices to decide to protect, scum have less of a chance of hitting the protected roles, we can still assess this information tommorrow...

Geez people, I got to start cooking dinner sometime

[Save The Dragons]

Fine. There is no way my role lets me stop a night kill.

[Save The Dragons]

You guys are going to make me starve!

Also, I think scum would be eager to get on this wagon, such as in the way STD is. He would be my current top suspect (other than Rock) if we ignore the night actions thing.

You think I jumped on the wagon to bus? I'm pretty sure Rock is scum, regardless of my alignment.

[Save The Dragons]

It's not true.

[Save The Dragons]

True or not, it's not right to do that.

Yeah.

[Save The Dragons]

Put this day out of its misery.

[Save The Dragons]

And given their reactions, it looks like it was a real confession.

You're right. This is something I would not deny if I were town.

Seriously, if you read too much into this, I will be pissed, because it's blatantly not true. Of course I'd say that as scum or town.

I'm saying this regardless of my alignment. Please don't stoop to Rock's level. Let the mod take care of this, and stop talking about it. I'm done posting for today.

[Save The Dragons]

Post coming tomorrow or possibly later tonight. Ran out of time.

[Save The Dragons]

(because, yes, I could make my actions when I was "roleblocked", because I sent in my action and got a response of nothing happening),

Wait...what? LF, are you sure your jailkeeping did what you sad it did?

As you say, I do need to be killed for information, and I doubt I have a good survival rate at night anymore, but do not not look at STD after my death.

Are you admitting to being mafia here? Why aren't we supposed to look at STD after your death?

It's a double negative. Do not

not

look at...well...me.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm pretty much convinced that GW is scum.

Still, I'll wait for IG and Kloud to speak before casting a vote.

Not sure what to think about the vote count, yet.

[Save The Dragons]

Also, I thought STD was a little flip-floppy about whether or not he wanted to lynch the lovers (before we knew rock was def scum).

Because I only really wanted to vote the lovers if I was sure that one of them was scum. At times, I thought BG/rock was scum, at times, I thought Xtoxm was scuim, and at times, I thought that the probably of Xtoxm OR BG/rock being scum was close to 1.

But there were times when I wasn't sure enough, and felt like more info was needed.

[Save The Dragons]

I think it is very unlikely at this point that reborn and LF are mafia.

However, the scientist in me must point this out:

LF is also town. GW as dead town proves that his jailkeeping protected GW from death N1.

LF is not 100% cleared. I know, huge, crazy WIFOM argument, but there's always a small chance.

Mass claim will most likely help. I support.

[Save The Dragons]

Brian

Vanilla townie.

I guess Kloud's up.

[Save The Dragons]

So - If Kloud is telling the truth about being a tracker, STD is scum by PoE.
However Kloud could be lying about his actions, which leaves Kloud, EK and StD as possible kill submitters.

Regardless of Kloud's statement, RF still can be scum, whose partner submitted the kill.

However, since I'm not scum, I'm going to

Vote: Kloud

, because I'm pretty sure he's lying.

Kloud, I expected a full claim from you. Why didn't you mention what you received last night?

Any reason you gave it to Kloud?

I am leaning to a Kloud lynch given that tracker + watcher + JOAT + bodyguard + inventor is a pretty strong town combo.

I actually disagree.

Watcher < Cop
Tracker < Cop
Random JOAT < JOAT
Bodyguard < Doctor
Inventor is a bit weak, since there's little control.
The lovers are hard to place...I think they help the town more than scum. Weakening the power roles helps balance the game in my opinion.

Although on the other hand, another balencing factor could be the introduction of anti-town power roles (like a scum tracker would help determine power roles).

I cant agrue with the EK or RF trackings too much, but the role smells a bit fishy to me.

They seem easy to fake. My thinking is that if Kloud is scum but not tracker, RF is possibly also scum, since he did would not know if she could do anything, and tracking her as doing nothing would be a + for her looking to be town.

If he's scum and tracker, then we can disregard this statement.

I think Kloud is lying because the way he puts it only STD can be scum.

Actually, RF and EK could be my partner if he's telling the truth...it would have been me to send the kill, however. LF's roleblock of RF would not have stopped the kill if I did it, nor would he catch EK going out to make the kill. The only thing his result suggests is that I am scum. Therefore, Kloud must be lying scum.

Oh, the invention gets sent anyway even if he dies?

Yes. This is how power roles work. Doctors still protect the night they're killed, and cops technically get their investigation before they die. I see no reason why reborn would not give away his invention before he died if he got NKed.

Since there's no possible way you can be telling the truth from my perspective, I do not wish to participate in this charade. If I say something to that effect, Kloud would obviously lie about the lie detector.

However, when I claimed today, I already technically said I was vanilla and by proxy pro-town, so I guess I don't really have a choice in this anyway.

[Save The Dragons]

StD, we will completely disregard the results of Kloud's lie detector unless he ends up confirmed as town. So it's not so much of a charade as you think.

The problem is, if I'm town, Kloud cannot also be town. Therefore, I see no possible way he cannot be scum right now.

[Save The Dragons]

From your perspective, it will give helpful information, and like I said, I've already done my part.

From my perspective, there's no point. Normally, I'd totally be with you.

[Save The Dragons]

Bah. I'm just being nitpicky.

I have a pro-town aligned role.

[Save The Dragons]

I really don't think we can force an invention, hence making the inventor role pretty weak.

I'm also a little nervous about this plan because it puts farsidemod in a position to actively help the scum or the town.

Also, for previously stated reasons, my vote probably will not move off of Kloud, unless we are desperate.

[Save The Dragons]

Seriously like 3 minutes before I posted.

Inventor cannot be a scum role. It's entirely unheard of out of a meta-breaking game.

Inventor is a relatively weak role. It's essentially giving scum a power role that grants 1 shot abilities with a one day delay. It may be a pretty strange choice for a scum power role, but I don't think we can rule it out.

This is not saying you're scum, but in general.

Kloud, however, is scum, and as such, we should lynch him.

[Save The Dragons]

I don't know if we can know what to do. I think we'll just have to look back at his posts and see if we can find his scum partner.

[Save The Dragons]

Besides Kloud? My guess would be RF, I've been iffy about her the entire game, but I don't really know.

E_K hasn't really done anything particularly scummy. LF is very unlikely, and reborn is less unlikely, but still unlikely. If I find some time, I'll try and go through the thread and see if I can get a better answer.

[Save The Dragons]

I think Kloud has played a pretty good game as scum. If it weren't impossible for him to be town right now, I'd probably still think he was town.

Kloud has stayed mostly under the radar, and has avoided suspicion. If anything, the scuminess I see from him is mostly less activity than other players, but I think posts from Xtoxm, reborn, and others drowned out some of the less talkative players, like thinktank, kloud, and RF.

[Save The Dragons]

But when kloud did talk, he usually posted really long analyses.

Even so, he has not stood out in my mind like other players have. I dunno. I was able to have discussions with players like reborn and Xtoxm, but Kloud seemed popped in every once in a while with a post of his own.

XXXXX

If Kloud is town:

Dragon-EK are (most likely) the scum.

If Kloud is scum:

Kloud-RF
Kloud-EK
Kloud-Dragon

obv are possible pairs.

[Save The Dragons]

My theory is that Kloud was a scum who needed one less vote to kill. It would make sense for Meg and maybe for balancing. It's possible that he didn't even know it. It's called something, but I forgot at the moment. I'll try to look it up (it's on MBF's flash thing).

I'm Brian. Hot Dog. I'm a townie.

With most likely one scum left, and due to your gambit, we're not at lylo today. RF, E_K, or I are most likely the scum. We can lynch two of us three, but we have to make sure that the scum is in one of those two that we lynch.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm Brian. Hot Dog. I'm a townie.

Thanks. You did not say hot dog last time. It seems everyone has some sort of title like that, and the fact that you only said Brian, vanilla, last time, was bothering me. Why didn't you say the hot dog part last time?

At the time, I didn't think it was relevant. I figured the important info was the name and the role, and that every role has this flavor...but at the time I was also in a hurry.

[Save The Dragons]

The only flaw in this plan is that it hands the game to reborn or LF if one of them are scum...or if RF isn't forthright about the invention she received. In fact, if she is scum, it is indeed a vigilante kill and I'm lynched, she's won the game. Although this scenario seems quite unlikely, because if I were scum with vig power, I wouldn't sit on it.

But other than that, I think it's a good idea (although I don't plan on voting for myself today). I personally would rather not die, because I know my alignment, and I worry that something unforeseen is going to hinder this plan, but since I guess I've warranted a lot of suspicion, I don't really think I have much say in this matter.

[Save The Dragons]

My point is that if you are scum and have another night kill, you lynch me during the day and off 2 people during the night. This means that you win, before we even have a chance to lynch you.

Even though it is a very small chance, for this reason, I'd prefer you as the first lynch, but I realize this ruins the plan as if we kill you, you cannot use supersaint powers.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm not saying I don't accept your idea. I'm trying to point out the flaws in the plan, which exist regardless of my alignment.

I don't want to get too comfortable with this plan so that we start thinking like this:

If LF or reborn are scum, I am afraid this game has already been lost.

I'd rather be sure that we take the best course of action, not find one that seems good and ignore all others.

1) RF tried to shift a wagon to kloud late D1
2) EK seemed fine with a lynch of herself late D1

Well, since I'm not scum,

a. one of those things must have happened
b. I can think of reasons why scum would do either. D1, imo, is a poor indicator of this sort of thing, because probability is on the side of the scum.

[Save The Dragons]

...did you even read my last post?

[Save The Dragons]

I'm not saying you should agree with it, or even that I agree with it. I'm saying that from my perspective, that's one scenario where this plan falls through.

In reality, though, the plan's most likely going to work. I am fully in support of this plan. I regret the fact that I'm going to die, but I realize that since one of you or E_K are the scum, we'll win the game regardless.

I'm a science major, however, so nothing is ever exact in my mind. Hence, other possibility. My idea was even prompted by you:

EBWOP. Thinking about it, I believe the plan is best if I convert myself into a Super Saint, because I am the only one who could be lying about the invention. By offering myself to be lynched, town wins whether I am scum or town. If I do not self-vote and allow myself to be hammered by E_K (or StD if that's who's alive!) then lynch me.

Foolproof, unless you see any holes in it.

Yes, I'll admit, if I was scum, I'd feel trapped right now, and I'd be searching for any way out, so I'd probably try to milk something like this. But I'd also try and point out any flaws I see in the plan, because my nature would dictate this, not my alignment. And I found one.

[Save The Dragons]

Understood. I realize I'm going to die today or tomorrow.

I do not think it is likely that LF or reborn are scum. LF could be a scum roleblocker if it weren't for GW's double vote. Inventors as scum seems weird, and it's pretty clear that he's an inventor. So our best bet is really to kill all three of us claimed townies.

I think since our roles aren't revealed after death (just alignment) it's possible that Kloud was a tracker, but Kloud could have also checked his role pm right before he claimed and said, "Stalker? Oh. Okay, I'll claim tracker." I know this situation is pretty unlikely.

In any case, if he was a tracker, he was lying about his results, and if he wasn't, then that would probably make more sense.

[Save The Dragons]

Vote: Elvis_knits

Alright. Let's do it.

[Save The Dragons]

yeah, I know. But I don't really want to self-vote. I've done it in the past, and I've always felt bad afterward. There are enough votes to kill me without my help, and I'm pretty much resigned to dying right now.

[Save The Dragons]

...I really...have no idea what to say...but I'll try.

Since people seem to be dying with one less vote, I think it is possible that LF could have known this before hand and used it to validate his random JOAT. If this is true and GW needed one less vote to die, then essentially LF could be a mafia roleblocker...

My concern with this is that it's freakin' complicated, and I cannot explain why LF would not want to RB reborn the night before last night, with no other power roles claimed.

Reborn, on the other hand, seems very unlikely to be a scum/inventor, or even less likely an SK/inventor.

I think it is more likely that LF has been pulling the wool over our eyes, making up a complicated claim. It is possible he had a real restriction on his vote, if we allow for the balancing of 2 (assuming kloud is really what he claimed) scum power roles. I don't know. I'll have to look back over the thread and see if this is even feasible.

But I'm thinking the power lies with reborn in this situation...hell, even if LF is telling the truth, a random JOAT as scum would work better than an inventor as scum. All his targets were non-scum, and the no kill nights could be WIFOMy.

Damn. I don't know. This game stopped making sense. It would really not surprise me if that one vote just killed me.

[Save The Dragons]

Boy, did I feel screwed for pretty much the entire game since rock died...

If I had sent in the kill instead of no-killing that night, things would have turned out differently...

But you got me. Good game town, good job, despite everything that happened. This was definitely a fun, interesting, and challenging game.

KMD, please insta claim with a guilty next time!!! Lol.

If you had claimed cop, the BG would have died, then you.

However, you had no way of knowing we'd kill you (thanks to kloud's info). I think you should keep guilty results for a while before revealing, just in case you can push the lynch without tipping your hand.

[Save The Dragons]

I was a bit pissed at Rock because I came up with this plan to appear pro-town which meant bussing him, and then he gets lynched anyway and cites me in his list of scum buddies.

I did the conventional move at every turn of the game, instead of gambits, and I kept losing my scum buddies and my innocence. I was desperate to make something happen, so I decided to try something crazy, and royally screwed myself in the process.

I seriously thought the game was over at that night, that LF would RB me and I would be ousted. I'm actually a little surprised I made it to the end. I was hoping you would take me and leave Kloud alive.

[Save The Dragons]

I contest I was not squirming I was trying to be rational, but I admit, sometimes my motives were a little less than good.

LF:

1) I wanted to target GW N1 because of a potential doctor breadcrumb.

I also like to do random choices for kills.

2) it wasn't obvious...I stand by my statements.

3) Because I seriously underestimated you, a mistake that cost me the game.

4) I didn't think of that.

[Save The Dragons]

If he had written a reasoning with his vote, and actual reasoning, then no, he would not have seemed suspicious, because at least it would have looked like he was doing more than jumping on a bandwagon. And what bandwagon on him are you seeing? He has ONE VOTE. That hardly seems like a bandwagon, unless the meaning of the word has changed, in which I will admit that I'm wrong. Why am I not voting him? Because that reason alone is not enough for me to warrant a vote.

I prefer to use my votes like a doctor uses a scalpel, not swing them around like a sword.

If I were going to vote him, it'd be to create pressure, but I'm not going to do that. One reason is that this can be done with words, as I was trying to do with the initial post involving the QFT statement. Another is because he still has not shown up after A) The first vote was placed upon him and B) My question to him was asked.

Admittedly, it was the first mistake in a long line of mistakes that I personally made as scum, but there it was.