Mini 660 - Star Trek: DS9 Mafia (Ruined = Over)

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First!

vote: ZONEACE

for being all CAPSY.

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Anyone sign up who ISNT a fan of the show?

DS9's my favourite Star Trek franchise. I've seen all of it a few years ago and I'm currently in the midst of season four.

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SoH ghaj quvHa'ta' lIj qorDu'

Note to self: Get my dictionary when I'm at home on wednesday.

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I picked up the breadcrumb in that very first post of yours, and while I think it's a bit early to be claiming characters it's entirely possible that a Klingon could be pro or anti- town in this game. Not everyone who seems to be Klingon will necessarily be so, as I'm sure Martok can attest.

Yes. Also, there are quite a few characters whose alignment changed over the course of the series.

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meh i used an online translator so It's possible I said, I am the cheese king of sunflowers.

Possible, yet unlikely, because at least the first half of the sentence seems to make sense.

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"Never make fun of a Ferengi's Vote Count! Rule of Acquisition number 31!"

Misquote!

(the 31st Rule of Acquisition is `never make fun of a Ferengi's mother.')

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I'd prefer a round of Fizzbin.

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More like `it's about as helpful as a `lol' in a theme which involved lolcats and roflcopters.'

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Sorry, it's been a busy week (and sadly, also a busy weekend) for me. Will post within the next 24 hours (after getting some much-needed sleep).

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Sorry, I'm still here. Post coming up.

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Also, sorry again for not actually posting days ago. One of my colleagues called in sick, so the rest of us spent nearly every waking hour working (it's holiday time and we were short-staffed before). Anyway, I'm on leave for the next week, so I'll definitely have enough time for this game.

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vam ghaH pegh ngeHta' vo'

“[non-canon expr] he/she/it secret [send] [press]” (which the online translator gives as “this he secret sent forth”).

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qatlh ta' SoH rur yuch

“why reach/power/emperor/ruler you [be like] chocolate”

“Why are you like chocolate?“

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Worf and Martok are really the only Klingon characters on the show. Worf is a regular, Martok isnt. So basically right there he was saying he was Martok.

That is, in fact, wrong. I can think of at least two other Klingon characters appearing in more than one episode (and several Klingons appearing in only one episode).

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Here he is, trying to claim that Martok and Worf might not be town aligned, which is quite preposterous. And if he was a fan of the show, which he claimed, he would know that. Very scummy.

No. CallMeLiam is claiming that

a Klingon

might not be town-aligned. And yes, there are Klingons on the show that would fit there perfectly.

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Now he's trying to drill home the changeling-paranoia factor, which would completely undermine town attempts and discerning claims, and would just make things very difficult if we're always assuming anyone could be a shapeshifter at any time. Personally, I think if there are shapeshifters, it'll be a nightaction, not some automatic role assumption before the game starts. Paranoia and confusion - thats what he's trying to instill in us, being the first to mention it and claiming several times he will not be taking roleclaims into consideration.

As ChannelDelibird has revelead when announcing ZONEACE's daykill, we're up against “dominion cowards.” That makes it

highly

likely that there is at least one shapeshifter among us.

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Even Rom could be with the Dominion? Are you kidding? Why would a shapeshifter impersonate ROM? Puh-lease. Here he is again, d1, trying to drill home more confusion tactics by saying that anyone could be with the dominion.

And “confusion tactics” is exactly what the shapeshifter infiltration is all about. You probably should go watch Paradise Lost (4x12) again.

“In the end, it's your fear that will destroy you.”

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I'll leave it at that for today and catch some sleep. If there's anything I've overlooked or you want me to comment on, let me know.

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Um, no its not. Gauron is the only other Klingon that has some sort of real-recurring role on ds9. And maybe the dah-har master guy, but even he's a two-three episoder guy. While Martok and Worf have 20+ episodes under their belt.

Besides him being spelt “Gowron,” which part of “appearing in more than one episode” is so difficult to understand? They appear more than once, therefore, they are recurring characters. Also, since they appear in episodes, they are on the show.

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Yes, but why would you want to claim them? That makes no sense. Also, those characters are extremly minor at best.

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That dominion cowards bit is hardly an indicator of shapeshifters. The dominion is known for trickery and deception sure, but I think you're reading into deli's post a bit much there.

ChannelDelibird's post makes it clear that the Dominion is the enemy. Ultimately, the Dominion is the Founders, and the Founders are shapeshifters. Since the Dominion is involved, it is highly likely that the Founders are involved, too.

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Klingons call all their enemies cowards.

No. In the Klingon mindset, “coward” is a huge insult and thus used (relatively) sparingly. I don't have a canon source for that, but have you ever seen a Jem'Hadar being called coward by a Klingon on the show? I don't recall that happening. Now, since Klingons and Jem'Hadar are enemies and no Klingon called te Jem'Hadar cowards, they obviously don't call all their enemies cowards.

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I've seen Paradise lost and I think you're missing the point of the episode. Sisco accused his own father of being a shapeshifter, crossing the line. Same goes for this setup. If we start accusing everyone of being a shapeshifter all the time, all reason just goes out the window.

Yes, but still,

anybody

could be a shapeshifter.

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4-Asks if anyone is up for a game of quarks.

Actually, he's asking for a game

at Quark's

, which is a bar run by the Ferengi Quark. The game itself is called “Dabo”.

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Sorry - no.

Gowron

appears in seven episodes, and Kor appears in two episodes. Those are not recurring roles. They're guest stars. Thanks for playing.

“Guest stars” is a concept that is completely orthogonal towards “recurring roles,” because (nearly) everyone not on the main cast is a guest star (including most characters only appearing in a single episode); even Martok is

credited

as a guest star. Yet you obviously wouldn't want to argue that he's not a recurring role. Besides, Kor appears in three episodes.

Also, your original claim was that there were no other Klingons on the show besides Worf and Martok (which is obviously wrong) and I don't like how you try to spin definitions such that your statement doesn't seem that way.

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Woah, thats some pretty hardcore logic there, where'd you learn that, Vulcan? The founders aren't usually footsoldiers. They're not gonna be on ds9 killing people probably. They're more tricky and manipulatey-ish than that. I just think a changeling role would be really OP. I mean how would it work, kill the person then assume role? Lets say bob the changeling kills bashir during the night, what would happen? Its hard to speculate now.

Where'd you get the idea that the Founders were “on ds9 killing people probably?” For the rest, see below.

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WOW. You're wrong BIGTIME there. Klingons almost ALWAYS call their enemies cowards. Sure its a big insult, but its like our equivalent of 'bastard'. And thats hardly an example. I'm pretty sure Klingons called the Jem'Hadar cowards on multiple occasions. I know your wrong there and I will start quoting canon if you make me.

No. “Coward” is way stronger than “bastard,” it's basically reserved for people without honor (it's also part of the Ritual of Discommendation, in which a Klingon is stripped of his honor in the Klingon society). The Jem'Hadar are, in fact, honorable warriors (confer “By Inferno's Light,” 5x15).

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On d1? Unlikely. My stance is while shapeshifting is probable at this point in the game, I dont think they would have already assumed a character role

on d1

. Unless they got to do it during pregame but I find that unlikely for other reasons. Lets ask ourselves about shapeshifters. Will they be immune to regular cops? Will they be immune to conventional vigs? Will they get the powers of the role they assume? Or does the shapeshifter already have a main character role?

When Martok was first introduced in “The Way of the Warrior,” he was in fact a Changeling replacement. It wasn't until “Apocalypse Rising” (a whole season later) that this would be revealed and not until “In Purgatory's Shadow” (again, half a season later) that the

real

Martok would be introduced. I don't actually see a problem why

any

player could have been replaced from the start (also, since we seem to have unknowingly spent the first half of the day in a Holosuite, there had to be some kind of “switchover” bringing all of us there, which would have made it easy to actually replace someone).

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I highly doubt delibird would include guest stars in a ds9 mafia. Sure, Garak was a

techinically

a guest star, but he hardly was assumes the lesser roles of gowron and kor. There are more than enough real recurring characters on ds9 to make roles everyone for without having to resort to extremely minor guest stars. True, Martok was a guest star

originally

but eventually he became apart of the full-fledged cast (like Garak, for instance) but was still was a minor role and was not in every episode.

How did Garak come into this? Also, both Garak and Martok are still credited as “Guest Stars” in the very last episode of DS9 (although Garak was a “Special Guest Star”). So no, they were not part of the main cast.

Also, Vic Fontaine was a “Special Guest Star” (but a “Special Guest Appearance” in “What You Leave Behind”), appearing in only seven episodes (eight if you count the mirror-Fontaine in “The Emperor's New Cloak,” which is basically him stepping through a door and getting shot).

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I never claimed that Worf and Martok were the only ones, only that it was highly unlikely that there would be any other Klingon roles besides those two in the mafia game. How is that not fair of me to assume?

Worf and Martok are really the only Klingon characters on the show.

…

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You're one of the people implying we should be extremely paranoid about changelings.

No. I was implying that we shouldn't dismiss the possibility of people being changelings.

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Because if we do have an enemy shapeshifter, thats exactly what we're gonna be facing, a founder on ds9 killing people.

Why killing? A founder on DS9, yes. A Founder impersonating people, yes. A Founder killing people, however, is rather unlikely.

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I also think that Delibird's flavor scenes should be taken as just that, flavor. Reading into the tiniest little sentiments he may put into a flavor scene is probably not a good idea.

That is probably a good idea, yes.

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I'd like to note that "Apocalypse Rising" was the episode directly AFTER "The Way of The Warrior" so really, changeling Martok was not around a whole lot. Neither was changeling Bashir. I dont think thats a reasonable line of thought. *shrug*

If you only look at episodes with Martok in them, then yes. If you look at the time frame of the whole series, things do look different. Also, changeling-Bashir was around for at least five episodes.

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First: What is a "changeling?"

“Changeling” is another name for “Shapeshifter.”

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I'm content with leaving that discussion aside for the moment, yes. Apart from that, I'm waiting for CallMeLiam.

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Both wrong. I was claiming that any character claim could very well be faked in a game with shapeshifters.

That's an even more general statement, so my point that Timeater was misrepresenting you there is still valid.

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Bashir and Martok were both replaced by duplicates during the show and I have no trouble believing the mod would slip in a Sisko, Kira or even a Kassidy shapeshifter as a scum role because I've seen the exact thing happen before in a DS9 theme game. Any character could be aligned with the scum as far as I can see. Scum hunt on play, not on characters.

Kira and O'Brien have also been impersonated by shapeshifters.

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And the thought of a shapeshifter impersonating a major player, thats a little far-fetched.

Obviously, since that never happened on the show… </irony>

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Quark couldn't be scum.

I have to agree there, while Quark may have a long criminal track record, he is not a “threat to the Federation.”

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Well, he could if he was a changeling lol.

Yes. That would, however, also make him a changeling-that-impersonates-Quark (who could and possibly would be scum), which is distinct from the “Quark” role (which definitely can't be scum).

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td - Et to brute (post 72)

Then fall, Caesar!

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You shouldn't in any way cease suspecting me because you think my claim is a solid one.

Hm, “solid” claims as opposed to “changeling” claims?

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See, I don’t agree here. If you’re town, the scum can try to work out your role from your character name, which helps them find the roles that are most dangerous to them. I don’t think anyone should claim unless they absolutely have to.

See below for the paragraph on nameclaim breakage hardening, the actual mechanic might not have much to do with the namesake character.

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Hey Liam, about the link to the other ds9 mafia you sent. One thing stands out: its not a mini-theme. 12 players vs 25 players = Thats a huge difference. Less roles, less scum = less changelings and shapeshifters. I dont really think you can draw from that game and use it for this one because they dont have anything in common probably.

At the very least, both games share the same flavor. Hence, they do have something in common. Also, even if there is only one changeling, the point that it could be anyone still stands.

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I'm sorry but a 100% changeling scum team is stupid. I would hope Delibird would have a little more sense than that. Also, you ignore the fact that a mini-theme and a 25 player game are hugely different in setup. Larger games allow for more power roles, more crazyness, sloppiness, more scum - while smaller games concentrate on balance and finesse.

The fact that a role is actually a changeling-impersonating-another-role tells you

nothing whatsoever

about the role's mechanics. Thus, the “more power roles in larger games” argument doesn't apply, since there is no need for them to be power roles.

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"The 'lynch all non-DS9ers'" is stupid too. - When taken into Sekinj's original context it is. But not how I interpreted it. I dont see how gives your vote any merit. Whats the connection? Oh wait there isn't one.

There are enough regular (as in, appearing in more than ten episodes) characters that don't actually live aboard the station and qualify as “the good guys.”

Since lynching everyone not living on DS9 would make the game breakable through nameclaims, it is almost guaranteed to be hardened against that using roles that are neither “DS9ers” nor scum.

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See I'm of a different mind, I'd expect someone like Weyoun to be a Godfather possible. Obviously its possible for a founder to be the GF though

Weyoun is the single Dominion character that could actually feasibly be pro-town (confer “Treachery, Faith and the Great River”). I also don't quite see how that could work as godfather flavour, since he actually tries to defect to the Federation, thereby not being a “threat to the Federation.”

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Personally I think suspect lists are a bad idea.

QFT.

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Why would sharing your suspects be a bad thing? Taken a vow of secrecy, or something?

It's not so much the listing of whom you suspect, but the fact that listing the suspects also gives away whom you

don't

suspect. Listing anything more than the top two suspects on day one is not helpful.

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His consecutive posts said, don't pay attention to claims, then made one. It seems kind of bizarre and somewhat scummy to not accept claims as evidence but expect yours to do much good.

I'd like to see an example of where he actually expected his claim “to do much good.”

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[repeatedly:] you wouldn't, would you?

It seems like you're lacking real arguments there…

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Unvote, Vote Liam

I don't like it, the case against CallMeLiam is crap (as is the case against frelaras).

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Right now, I'm torn between sekinj and Light-kun, I'll need to think about this some more (that shouldn't take longer than 24 hours).

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fre pushed me to answer each little comment he made. I answered a few of them like that because that is how HE responded to MY arguements, and then expected me to comment on that...

If by “fre” you mean M4yhem, then at least the explanation isn't completely wrong.

M4yhem stated that

exactly

once (in response to your “there are much better cases out there”). Also, you did not give any information on which cases you actually mean nor provide reason why the case on you were bad (which seems to imply that it's bad because it's a on you), so that basically disqualifies it as an argument.

Also, a consistent pattern in your posts is that you make a general statement like “${something} looks like ${scummy action}” and then fail to provide reasoning and/or examples, which to me looks like talking without actually saying anything.

vote: sekinj.

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What's the point of saying it in the first place, if you don't expect people to act on it? In fact, in spite of the earlier behavior that led to Liam getting voted on in the first place, we've all dropped it now based on the fact (and I can dig up the 2-3 posts that say this if you don't believe it) that his Quark claim is good. And I hardly see Liam in here arguing against it. Natural enough, but it seems like he's benefiting from a character claim when he claims they're useless. Do you see why I find this position unhelpful? At some point in the future, he's going to be around to go after someone irregardless of their claim largely because his character claim saved him early on. It's a double standard and I don't like it.

You shouldn't in any way cease suspecting me because you think my claim is a solid one.

If you do, it's your fault, not CallMeLiam's.

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Is it a scummy double standard? It could be. If the day comes when Liam presses for the lynch of an obvious Starfleet cast member, it will be really convenient that he can claim that claims are worthless. But I don't expect anything less of a Ferengi.

There are “obvious Starfleet cast members” on the show which could feasibly be scum (and not just because of changeling impersonation).
Also, I don't like how you paint CallMeLiam as scummy for something he

might or might not do

in the future.

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Without Jeb, that leaves sekinj and Liam. And since Liam's last post left a bad taste in my mouth, I will pursue him until he responds. (And once he elaborates, as I requested, I am certain that I can move on to Sekinj and try and dig something up from this wasteland of DS9 arguments.)

Seeing that CallMeLiam has already answered, I'll wait for your answer before I pursue this further.

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Nobody asked Light-kun for a comprehensive rundown of all the players but if he says he has suspects but won’t talk about them, that raises eyebrows.

I didn't intent that statement you quoted to be Light-kun specific in any way, but rather directed to the “scum lists are a bad thing” points brought up earlier.

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Also, ACK to Timeater.

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*bitchslaps td*

Why that?

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ACK is short for Acknowledgement.d

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Grah, stupid Iceweasel/Firefox 3 showing unescaped URIs…

EBWOB: ACK is short for Acknowledgement.

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I lost the first version of this post due to a power failure induced crash, so here's the short version:

I'm not buying sekinj's claim (she seems knowledgeable enough about DS9 to be able to fabricate it). Also, her late reluctance towards claiming (“I'd really rather not claim”, post #441) does seem strange in light of her earlier statement “I'll claim! I like claiming...” (post # 100).

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I didn't, I just saw no reason to comment on that (ZONEACE's “if you're the doctor, you're an idiot. if you're not, you're an idiot. ” sums it up perfectly).

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Checking in.

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I (Elim Garak if that wasn't clear enough) have come to know that m4hyem is Evil.

Vote : M4hyem

That just seems kinda cheesy and that makes me think about fabrication.

Even more important, “m4yhem” is “Evil,” but ooba goes on to vote for “M4hyem.” This inconsistency (mainly the capitalization of M4yhem in the vote while not in the result claim; the transposed “yh” looks more like a minor typo) strikes me as odd.

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Garak as a Jack-of-all-Trades fits flavour-wise. However, Garak is not only an expert on torture, but also constantly lying (“Of all the stories you told me, which ones were true and which ones weren't?” — “My dear Doctor, they're all true.” — “Even the lies?” — “Especially the lies.” —Bashir and Garak, The Wire, 2x22).

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Grah, hit submit instead of preview (seems I'm still not completely sober again…). “And now the conclusion.”

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Therefore, I'd be careful to trust an investigation claimed by Garak, because it's likely that it's not

entirely

true (or even completely false).

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Surprising that you managed to get Sisko's name wrong. Apart from that, your claim looks solid (and, contrary to ooba, I see no flavour-based reason not to trust you).

Vote: Light-Kun.

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I'm not exactly a fan of mass-claiming, but it does seem apropriate here.

Whether we actually are in lynch-or-lose depends on how many scum are left. There has to be at least one scum alive (because the game is still runnig) and there are likely no more than two scum alive (if there were, there had to be a bulletproof unlynchable townie (or something similar) to prevent a scum win and force a tie; there is simply no sensible way in which town could still win this scenario, so I'm deeming it unlikely).

Hence, there is (most likely) either one or two scum left. If there's exactly one scum left, we have 4:1 town:scum, which would go on to a three-player endgame in case of a mislynch.

If there's exactly two scum left, we are indeed in lynch-or-lose now. Since there's already two scum down, that means we started with a 8:4 town:scum ratio. Thus, day two dawned with 5:4 town:scum alive, which is also lynch-or-lose.

So, either we are not yet in lynch-or-lose or we have been in lynch-or-lose since day two.
However, without knowing how many scum remain, there is no way to tell which scenario we're in.

farside22 being so sure about us actually being in lynch-or-lose looks like she knows something we don't know.

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Fair enough, recruiting is indeed a point I missed.

Other than that, I think we should wait for frelaras to post before starting claiming.

Also, farside22, where exactly did you get the impression that I “seem against” massclaiming

in this specific situation?

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How exactly is “

general-statement

, but

situation-specific-statement-as-an-exception

” wishy-washy?

Wishy-washy necessarily implies that there are two contradicting statements. However, an “in most cases” expression and an exception to it are in no way contradictory and thus cannot be called wishy-washy.

Also, now that I've asked for evidence, you accuse me of being wishy-washy on claiming, whereas you did describe me as being

against

mass-claiming.

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Post 545 is suggest that we might not be in lylo so really not up for claim.

Apart from being in the same post, my comments on mass-claiming and lynch-or-lose are not in any way related.

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Saying that I know it is lylo also isn't a tell. I feel that is a big leap to make when anyone who's played her can tell you what I just said.

It's not at all about lynch-or-lose, but about you

knowing

when there's not enough information available to us to know. Thus, you either lied about “knowing” and are indeed just guessing or you have more information available than the rest of us.

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Also saying I'm against mass claim but will do it is wishy washy. It's basically saying I will do it but I dont like it. How is that not wishy washy?

I never stated that I was against mass-claims. I did make a general statement about “not exactly being a fan” of them and then said that

nevertheless,

a mass-claim in this specific situation would be “apropriate.”

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td: Do you have an issue with claiming first?

No. I do have an issue with you misrepresenting me though.

Also, interesting that you're back at the td-against-mass-claim stage, which ironic, since you seem to be

wishy-washy

there…

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What part of a 12 player game and normal 3 scum did you miss?

If it's a 12-player game with “normal 3 scum,” we are in lynch-or-lose

if and only if

Light-kun has successfully recruited another player. If he did not, we are not in lynch-or-lose.

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I am Constable Odo, Chief of Security. During the night, I revert to my liquid natural state. During the day, however, I can try to link with another player to see if they are a changeling. So far, I can confirm ZONEACE, M4yhem, Timeater and CallMeLiam as solids (that is, non-changelings). Also, see post #72 for a breadcrumb.

I'd like CallMeLiam to go next.

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It's a “scum thing,” the changelings are the Founders of the Dominion.

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I'm more confused. You said you checked M4yhem. But didn't he turn out to be scum?

A changeling is certainly scum (because non of the claimed roles

should

be a changeling), but not every scum is necessarily a changeling (indeed, the Vorta are not, yet they are part of the Dominion).

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I don't play often with cults in mini games. The few I know of there is still 3 scum and 1 cult in a 12 player game.

Ah, now I see where the misunderstanding was: I counted “3 scum and 1 cult” as “four scum.”

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Why not call the mafia “mafia?” Then you could use scum as a generic term for mafia, SK, cult and whatever not-town-aligned-roles there might be.

[td]

I have not been informed of anything related to my vote, neither yesterday nor today.

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I'm going to bed now since I have to get up early tomorrow (also, I'll be away from home the whole day). I do have to spend quite some time on a bus, however, so I'm printing out the game to do an offline reread. Expect further comments on Sunday afternoon.