Mini 653 - Family Guy Mafia - Game over

[Save The Dragons]

I'm sure a scum would speculate who they're going to kill early in-game IN THE GAME THREAD.

Now that's a WIFOM.

If anyone can give me a better definition of WIFOM than the wiki, I'd be glad to hear it, and I'll probably concede my WIFOM points.

Entirely WIFOM. Scum excuse scum tells by calling them too obvious and saying scum would never do such a thing.

I'm talking theory, not practice. I'm saying that scum who pay attention or even scum who think logically are going to avoid doing things like draw attention to themselves. I'm not saying they're going to avoid it to be like the town.

Basically, if I get caught being overeager in one game, I'm going to be less likely to throw myself out there in my next game as scum. I guess I worded my statement wrong. I apologize. I did not mean to imply that all scum avoided scumtells.

Second of all, no, this is not WIFOM. Yes, it's metagaming, but it's not WIFOM. I'm not saying that scum would do this because they're trying to look like town and be like, "why would I do this as scum?"

But scum do things that are seen as obvious scumtells and they DO say "why would I do that as scum?"

Yes, and that would be an example of WIFOM.

Nowhere do I say scum do these things, and then claim "why would I do that?" because I'm not talking about actual events, I'm talking about metagame, which Reborn opened pandora's box for when he suggested that wishy-washy people must be scum. He's using something that could be helpful for the town and turning it on its side. This is the meat and potatoes of my argument. The WIFOM spiel is more like a glass of wine.

If we set aside the WIFOM parts (which I'll admit, I'm not so keen on myself since my understanding of WIFOM is fuzzy at best), how does the rest of my argument fair, kmd?

[farside22]

Quagmire: Hello, 911? It's Quagmire. Yeah, yeah, it's in a window this time.

vote count:

kmd4390 1 vote: (xtoxm)
Elvis_Knits 1 vote: (Inspector Godot)
reborn537 2 votes: (LlamaFluff, Save the Dragons)
LlamaFluff 2 votes: (babygirl, reborn537)
babygirl86 2 votes: (GhostWriter, kloud1516)
Inspector Godot 1 vote: (RestFermata)

Not voting:

Elvis_Knits
kmd4390

With 12 people it take 7 votes for lynch
Day 1 ends August 25th, 4:00pm PST

[RestFermata]

By the way, you still haven't really answered about why you were doing so much power role speculation, IG. How does that help anybody?

[elvis_knits]

All I can think of is that in a game like this, experienced scum will often lurk because so many other players are doing it so they can get away with it.

I'm pretty sure farsidemod is being ruthless about prodding and replacing players. I don't think lurking is an issue in this game. If you disagree, who do you think is guilty of it?

We are barely getting any information from this.

You can't just say something's a scumtell.

1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.
2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.
3. I think people play how they're gonna play.
4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.

Entirely WIFOM. Scum excuse scum tells by calling them too obvious and saying scum would never do such a thing.

On this topic, I do think that scumtells exist. I also think that scum try to avoid them. I also think town try to avoid them. But I think the one of the main challenges of mafia is that it is really hard to avoid all scumtells even when you are aware of them. I have often played a game as scum and been like... "why do I keep doing that... doh!". But as to STD saying you should explain why something is a scumtell in any given situation, I definitely agree. Because more information is better. Often more is gained from the discussion of such things.

EBWOP - my typo probably made things unclear at the end.

My answers are in bold. There doesn't seem to be a case here, just an attack on my suspicions of LF followed by a vote on me. I'm looking at you as scum partners now

FoS StD

OMGUS much?

trying to look active much?

Are you trying to say that I am lurking? I only replaced in this game a few days ago. Have I not participated enough for you?

[Save The Dragons]

But as to STD saying you should explain why something is a scumtell in any given situation, I definitely agree. Because more information is better. Often more is gained from the discussion of such things.

You're my favorite.

[GhostWriter]

I'm going to ask that you please clarify the following for me, if you don't mind, STD:

For 1:

vote goborage

for even thinking about character claiming

Of course given a restriction of mine I doubt that vote will be of much use.

I have a problem with every single person deciding that it's more important to random vote than to at least acknowledge this discussion if not for Goborage's lines than for LlamaFluff's announcement of his posting restriction. Nobody said in their first post anything about either. You don't have to random vote...

Can you rephrase this? I don't understand what you're getting at. I apologize for not being able to, but I can't, and I'd really like to.

GhostWriter

(and I purposely avoided it last time, hoping it'd blow over)

o_O

To say that is like saying that you feel gobo was a bad enough player to come right out and sneak a claim in, not only at the start of the game, but PREgame.

As much as I'm not a huge fan of breadcrumbing as it is a metagame tactic, I do not find it to be poor play.

Also not getting what you're implying here.

[GhostWriter]

Also

Unvote

.

[Save The Dragons]

I have a problem with every single person deciding that it's more important to random vote than to at least acknowledge this discussion if not for Goborage's lines than for LlamaFluff's announcement of his posting restriction. Nobody said in their first post anything about either. You don't have to random vote...

Can you rephrase this? I don't understand what you're getting at. I apologize for not being able to, but I can't, and I'd really like to.

No one even mentioned either of the two things that llama brought up. I thought that was weird.

You also mentioned that gobo was a bad player for trickling a claim in. I disagree that he's a bad player for breadcrumbing.

As for the o_O, I don't think that you should be ignoring things and hoping they'd blow over.

[RestFermata]

What is the advantage of breadcrumbing in a theme game, where scum often have safeclaims anyway? Sorry, this is just a strategic question from a newbie.

[LlamaFluff]

this game hasnt been getting enough of my attention, I will should have a larger post up later today

[GhostWriter]

I ignored Llama because I knew that wasn't a claim. I tried to ignore it, because, at the time that it was beginning, I felt it was obvious, and that no one would follow his(wrong) way of thinking about it. I did not care so much that he had begun to breadcrumb, but that he had done it in a situation that it did not make sense, and then pushing it so hard. This was all stated in the total of my posts (except the "blown over" part. That was not explained before, not clearly, at least...)

[GhostWriter]

What is the advantage of breadcrumbing in a theme game, where scum often have safeclaims anyway? Sorry, this is just a strategic question from a newbie.

When were we told anything about safeclaims?

[RestFermata]

Nowhere. I was talking about theme games in general. In many of the ones I've read there have been safeclaims.

[RestFermata]

EBWOP. That's why I said "often", referring to "in theme games", so that would be clear. Guess it wasn't.

[LlamaFluff]

First off

Do you think this makes him scum?

It makes him look more scum then town, but is not something to lynch him on alone. I have described to death why I think character claim is bad, so anything that I percieve as someone either claiming or instigating a claim is scummy in my book. There are other reasons I had gobo as scum though which I outlined in my 21. From the way reborn has acted around my case doesnt help quell any suspicions though.

Also for my restriction, when I first announced it I interpreted it a different way then it actually was. I thought my vote never showed up, while in actuallity it does show, but just doesnt count. Basically my vote is an FoS, so if I was on a wagon that hit 7 votes, it wouldnt lynch.

On to bigger things - the lovers should find out if its a delayed suicide or not. I have seen instant suicide games and ones where its delayed by either a day or night (ie BG killed N1 xtoxm suicides end of D2). Either way both lovers should be kept off the chopping blocks today.

My main suspicions hover around reborn and IG.

For reborn, the case he is pushing on me seems to of burnt out a bit. After I explained my vote reasoning, the case just seems to of been stopped and he now is arguing with dragon about how scumtells are universal or not. The OMGUS basically of dragon who has a good post up on reborn in 293. I still would like answers from reborn about which of my votes are opportunistic or scummy and reasoning behind them. Once I asked for that information he has gone quiet and now seems to be basing my case more on the fact that he thinks dragon is defending me.

In post 295 my kmd-town vibe commited suicide. While in dragons inital vote there was no overwhelming case, 293 was strong and it seems to of been brushed aside as you pick apart the summary case. Reborn and IG still are much higher then you though.

IG seems be speculating and fishing quite a bit about my restriction and the cleveland issue. There are no solid conclusions though regarding these things, leaving them at "Im not sure" allowing movement to any side of the issue as needed later on. After the lover claim, in two consecutive posts he speculates about a scum lover.

In his aggressions IG right now has EK for previously mentioned reasons (which I have a hard time finding) and me for being overzealous? Can you explain each of those a little better, especially how you are attributing me being overzealous to me being scum. The EK vote bugs me when it was cast too as EK "made some good points". Making good points is something that I naturally attribute to a town tell, maybe this was just due to having no other suspects at the time though.

So I think reborn still is the best bet today, he seems to just be falling apart right now in his argument with dragon, still isnt backing up the reasons he is voting me too well and just general scumminess. IG also doesnt look too well as he spends most of his time speculating about roles and his suspicions are either hard to find or completely baseless.

[Save The Dragons]

I ignored Llama because I knew that wasn't a claim. I tried to ignore it, because, at the time that it was beginning, I felt it was obvious, and that no one would follow his(wrong) way of thinking about it. I did not care so much that he had begun to breadcrumb, but that he had done it in a situation that it did not make sense, and then pushing it so hard. This was all stated in the total of my posts (except the "blown over" part. That was not explained before, not clearly, at least...)

1. This is only half of Llama's post.
2. I don't really think that people are scummy for ignoring a post with potential information, since everyone did it, and not everyone is scum.

This is an example of a scumtell that clearly doesn't fit for this particular game.

What is the advantage of breadcrumbing in a theme game, where scum often have safeclaims anyway? Sorry, this is just a strategic question from a newbie.

I just don't think it makes a player bad if they breadcrumb. I think they should try to contain all their plays to non-meta plays, but that doesn't mean that it's bad. I think there are advantages and disadvantages (that I can't really think of right now).

[thinktank]

Nowhere. I was talking about theme games in general. In many of the ones I've read there have been safeclaims.

FoS: Fermata

[elvis_knits]

But as to STD saying you should explain why something is a scumtell in any given situation, I definitely agree. Because more information is better. Often more is gained from the discussion of such things.

You're my favorite.

<3

[elvis_knits]

What is the advantage of breadcrumbing in a theme game, where scum often have safeclaims anyway? Sorry, this is just a strategic question from a newbie.

Scum don't always have safe claims. The fact that you're bringing this up makes me wonder if you KNOW that mafia have safe claims because you're one of them.

[RestFermata]

I didn't say they always have safeclaims. I don't know much about how often they have safeclaims, but I've read some minigames, such as Roald Dahl Mafia, where they had safeclaims. Honestly I was just asking a strategic question. I thought I made it clear that I said that scum OFTEN have safeclaims IN THEME GAMES. I wasn't even necessarily talking about THIS theme game. I was asking about the advantages of breadcrumbing in a theme game where scum often have safeclaims. I guess I should have known that asking this would paint a target on my ass, but I'd still like to know the answer.

[elvis_knits]

IG seems be speculating and fishing quite a bit about my restriction and the cleveland issue. There are no solid conclusions though regarding these things, leaving them at "Im not sure" allowing movement to any side of the issue as needed later on. After the lover claim, in two consecutive posts he speculates about a scum lover.

In his aggressions IG right now has EK for previously mentioned reasons (which I have a hard time finding) and me for being overzealous? Can you explain each of those a little better, especially how you are attributing me being overzealous to me being scum. The EK vote bugs me when it was cast too as EK "made some good points". Making good points is something that I naturally attribute to a town tell, maybe this was just due to having no other suspects at the time though.

I think IG voted me because I was attacking him but hadn't voted him yet. It was a pre-emptive OMGUS, if that even exists lol. Also a way for him to try to discredit my points against him.

I think his vote on me is suspect because it is solely based on what dalt did. And dalt posted 5 times the whole game (one was a confirmation). Yes, he did bandwagon xtoxm without giving his reasons. BUT, 1)he was not the only person bandwagoning, and 2)he flaked on the game, so maybe that's why he wasn't giving a lot of input. All things considered, I think that the charge of bandwagonning would have to be combined with other things to actually merit a vote. It just seems too thin at this point in the game. I can't understand how dalt voting xtoxm and not giving reasons is THE SCUMMIEST thing in the game at this point. I can see how some people would be suspicious or see it as scummy, but I don't think it's reasonable to think it's the scummiest.

[RestFermata]

I think my reasons for my vote on IG are pretty sound. His posts do little to help the town, and almost seem to be advice to scum half the time. It's not like I think scum would deliberately come across as helping scum in the daytime, but they might find themselves less careful about giving information to scum. Town has to walk a thin rope during the daytime. You have to help your fellow townspeople, but you also have to keep some information to yourself, lest you inadvertently give power to the scum. Scum might tend to be a little less careful on the balancing act.

[elvis_knits]

I didn't say they always have safeclaims. I don't know much about how often they have safeclaims, but I've read some minigames, such as Roald Dahl Mafia, where they had safeclaims. Honestly I was just asking a strategic question. I thought I made it clear that I said that scum OFTEN have safeclaims IN THEME GAMES. I wasn't even necessarily talking about THIS theme game. I was asking about the advantages of breadcrumbing in a theme game where scum often have safeclaims. I guess I should have known that asking this would paint a target on my ass, but I'd still like to know the answer.

The point is that since scum don't always have safe claims, nobody should know if they do have safe claims unless they are mafia. You bringing it up makes it seem like you know they do.

What is the advantage of breadcrumbing in a theme game, where scum often have safeclaims anyway?

I think it's mostly the same advantages as when there are not safe claims. For scum or town, they both want the same thing... It can help people believe your claim. It can help them trust you even before you claim (if they pick up on your crumb and believe you). But it can also backfire and get you lynched or NK'ed. So it really depends on the role and how much you think is good to risk.

On the topic of safe claims, I'm not generally too scared of them. Many times the safe claims the mafia have are second tier characters, so that's one way of helping to evaluate if it's real or not. Also, you have to put more faith in how they've been playing rather than their claim.

[RestFermata]

Well, sorry to disappoint, but I don't know if they have them. I was only speculating. But I can see how it looks bad.

[elvis_knits]

I think my reasons for my vote on IG are pretty sound. His posts do little to help the town, and almost seem to be advice to scum half the time.

Did you already point out where you think IG does this? I'm curious because I don't think I saw it. Usually scum don't advise each other during the day since they can talk at night...