Open 88 - Polygamist Mafia (Game Over) before 650

[armlx]

Because it is now my new tradition when I see you in a game to vote for you. Razz

Farside wins the thread for OMGUSing a random vote across games.

Vote The Pope's Tiara

because we all know the pope prefers other forms of jewelery.

[armlx]

I don't really get how the random voting is supposed to work when everyone does it, but what the heck Razz

Eventually someone does something odd (usually something very aggressive), which draws attention, which draws reactions, etc.

[armlx]

Because if everyone was on the same team... thats one big orgy. Amirite?

Is that a bad thing?

[armlx]

Massclaim is good.

[armlx]

We should probably establish some kind of order to the claim. Just saying. Since Zoolander has already claimed, I suggest Popcorning it (each person who claims chooses the next one). More info then random.

[armlx]

No need to popcorn it, just claim. Takes less time

Yes, but doing so gives more information.

Me + Kloud.

GoatRevolt next please.

[armlx]

Yeah, farside pretty much answered it. Asking why someone chose that person is the real issue at hand here, especially with the ability for each person to pick either Lover A1, A2, B1, B2, etc.

[armlx]

So why did you pick Goat to go next for claim?

He hadn't responded to the mass claim issue, and I wanted to force him to. I felt the reaction I got from him would be more indicative (if there was a significant one) then that from a less experienced player, who could oppose the claim on a non-scummy, more so ignorant basis.

[armlx]

This is where we need adel. One of those diagram thingies would be great here.

[armlx]

What we also need is some scumhunting

This is true, and the diagram is one method of doing so (that I usually don't care enough about to use).

[armlx]

I just dont see what an overanalysis of the first three pages of votes will accomplish at this point that simple scumhunting cant, I dont think many if any have even cast something more then a random. Ususally voting history doesnt even come into play as concrete evidence untill late in the game.

You seem to underestimate the non-randomness of random voting, especially in this set up.

[armlx]

Random lynching is poor. Always.

[armlx]

What about when it gives you a 60% chance to win?

What about the fact that as the uninformed majority, scum hunting gives the town more information with which to make good decisions about lynching and increases those odds?

I'd like to rephrase my comment though: When the majority is uninformed, random lynching is always bad. In an informed majority game (AITP), it is good as it gives less info to the uninformed minority.

[armlx]

It's not as if the random lynch is without its benefits :/

Like what?

Strong FOS both people suggesting we don't scum hunt

BTW.

[armlx]

I assume this is directed at me. Where did I suggest we shouldn't scum hunt?

I missed that your post was only in response to Jebus's proposal of the idea, and thought you propogated the idea. That makes things a lot simpler though, as only one player is guilty of the offense.

Vote Jebus

[armlx]

As for the Jebus thing, I think that the behavior and the defense by Jahudo is suspicious, but not enough to warrant my vote yet.

Do you see anything else that could warrant a vote?

[armlx]

Also armix and others: Do you think a vote on Jebus is still a good direction now that it seems he's getting a replacement?

Yes. The fact he is being replaced does not change his action.

[armlx]

Just so you know,

I will be away from Thursday till Sunday

.

[armlx]

Considering he wasn't interested in throwing his own name in the ballot, it's definitely possible I was misinterpreting him.

This is a pretty big issue.

[armlx]

It got quiet all the sudden. Any other comments you want to make about Goats comment Armlx?

No more then the vote I have already placed.

OpposedForce, there is no Day 3. There is only D1 and maybe D2 in this game.

[armlx]

Also where are Zoolander and the Pope? Is this synchronized lurking? (couldn't resist the joke but I'm still curious)

Probably just flaked.

[armlx]

Farside: I don't think the mafia would explicitly discuss the game being nightless any more then a lover pair would. If its anything its a town tell, but its a pretty weak one at best.

this really reads to me like the work of a newbie with 62 total game posts who doesn't quite understand the setup. What is scummy about a mistaken newbie having a horrible idea?

Which parts exactly make you feel that?

my lover's single post. defintely a sign of a genius scum plot to convince the town to random-lynch itself into extinction.

Since when did anyone say it was a large plot?

I think there is something to be gained from the OF-Llama argument. Not sure what right now, but I'm going to read it a bit closer and see if I can figure it out.

[armlx]

armix: a question with a question? give me a break. I never saif it was a large plot. The daytalk is funny.

My point is evident: I'm not buying it as a newbie mistake. Show me how it was.

[armlx]

Seriously, the quicktopic chat is funny. Jebus honestly thought it was a good idea for the town to random lynch both days. He even used fractions to "prove" it.

So it was planned?

[armlx]

I think that townies would be more worried about finding scum than avoiding suspicion themselves.

I agree. Most other I people I have discussed that with do.

[armlx]

Jebus: It is a plan then. I'll go after kloud

This is the line that really gets me. Pre-game plans to attack a given player?

[armlx]

I mean, there's the whole WIFOM of why you would even discuss that chat, but I honestly see no reason to move my vote.

[armlx]

I'm not sure exactly what you're suggesting, but if someone replaces out, their replacement does not get a fresh start or a clean slate.

2nd. Adel should know this.

[armlx]

I just mean that Jebus' random vote idea and 3jf's inactivity are not strong enough tells to lynch their replacements.

Why does the replacement matter?

[armlx]

Unless you were ready to lynch Jebus and 3fj before Abel replaced in

I was.

Because they cannot defend why Jebus and probably 3fj left the game.

Thats not an issue here. I don't care why they left, just what they did before then.

I feel that what Abel and a potential 3fj replacement say and do are more useful because they can defend themselves.

Sure. I agree, but thats not a reason to drop all suspicion of them.

[armlx]

ah, so Armix is all about lynching newbie for making a mistake based off of inexperience, and keeping this day limited to one wagon. got it.

Ah, so now lynching someone for wanting to lynch someone for an EXTREMELY anti-town plan is now scummy?

[armlx]

Is it now scummy because she wanted to lynch someone for wanting to lynch someone for anti-town plan?

Yes, especially in the context of the vote being OMGUS.

[armlx]

I hope that you don't mind that I'm writng this with anger for it pains me that I see all these false arguments about the ones who Adel and I have replaced, while you weren't searching for the real scum.

Appeal to emotion.

And if you say again that this is a false message, then ask me for the link. I'm confident enough to give to you. I believe that if you'd ask the other players, four of them won't give their link. For those who don't know who I'm talking about, I'm talking about the scum.

Quoting communication w/ other players = mod killable offense.

I have updated the second bullet point of the rues to make this clear - Mod.

[armlx]

You seem to be scared, armlx. Is this everything you have to say after my long post? Appeal to emotion and a warning.

Those 2 points were pretty much the whole of your post.

And lol's at the trying to apply emotion to my posts in an attempt to make them look scummy.

You're one of those who said he was going to read Llama-OF's discussion to see if there were any hints. What happened to that?

Without any other alignment reveals, I didn't feel there was enough information to go off from it.

Why are you only going into the Adel case, while there are 10 more ppl to investigate?

Because those actions are easily the scummiest in the game by far, and 90% of the other actions in the game revolve around the results of this wagon?

[armlx]

If you aren't scared then explain why the only thing you said was a warning about the link. When the chat first was mentioned by adel there were many who quoted it and made bold parts of the arguments they saw as suspicious.

Adel posted a summary. You were going to post a link.

To put it into context, summarizing your role in a normal game is ok. Copy Pasting the PM to the thread is not.

And tell me why adel would leave things like 'I'll go after kloud' or 'early role claim would make us a target' in the message, but left 'the other two scum' out of it. If she wanted to give the message an innocent look, she would have erased those as well. This part is for CK as well.

For extra WIFOMy goodness.

I also thought that IC's of newbie games would look more closely when it could be a newbie talking. At least that's what I notice most of the times. Don't you do that in newbie games? If you don't, why not? If you do, why not here?

Because the discussion looks deliberate and scum oriented.

[armlx]

And Adel continues to subtly propagate the idea that what Jebus + 3fj did was not scummy and attacking them for it was.

[armlx]

Lost the questions in the end of page.

Besides if this game has been 90% about Jebus, 3fj, Adel and me then what are you going to do after we get lynched? Then you'll look into other people with only one day left here. Isn't that risky?

I'm assuming the game ends there, but if it doesn't this wagon is a shit load of info.

Also how come you don't see Jebus actions as newbie?

Deliberate pre-game planning, false analysis, etc, but mainly the fact he had someone else to talk to pre-game. Also, I do see them as newbie, but still scummy and not excusable to newbiness.

First of all, if I wanted to post the link I would have done it in that post. You took it serious and told that it isn't allowed to do so. To me this appears as if you don't want to see the chat, while others reacted to it when Adel posted the text. Back then, you didn't give any comments as well. Only to a thing Caboose has said.

And if it was WIFOM, then tell me why Adel didn't use it.

I didn't want to see it. The scenario ends in 1 of 2 ways: I am right, and you threatening to post it as such does nothing major, or I am wrong, and you posting that leads to mod kill + possible other consequences.

Now comes the part where you didn't give an aswer to. Don't you look carefully at newbies in newbie games? How many times is there a newbie killed, because he looked scummy, while he was actually making newbie mistakes? If you don't look into it, why not? If you do, why not here?

Actually, of every newbie game I have IC'ed or modded, I can only think of 1 scenario off the top of my head where a newbie town got lynched for dumb behavior that was specifically newbish. Compare to 2-3 where newb scum got the same treatment. I usually let small things slide with newbies to be fair, but Jebus's proposition was head and shoulders above small.

[armlx]

That's L-1.

[armlx]

If Adel and I are scum then who are our partners?

Someone not voting you who has expressed they don't like your actions. Jahudo comes to mind, esp. because Caboose hasn't posted in a while. My experience with EmpKing also would imply that he is also a possible partner given GR expressing similar behavior towards you.

[armlx]

Besides armlx, don't you get worried now that there's only one vote needed to lynch adel. You know that you're going to be targeted when the others see we were town?

You say these things like you think I don't think you are scum. Scare tactics aren't going to push my vote away.

[armlx]

Circumstances drastically changed from the time of that quote.

[armlx]

Adel:

Why would scum group two newbies together for the claimed lover pair? Wouldn't it make much more sense for one experienced player to be paired with on inexperienced player?

It might, it might not. They set up the newbie excuse on those 2 and the experienced pair fends off attacks like none other.

With four players in the scum group, wouldn't one of them have enough experience to point out the flaws to 3jf and Jebus that their plan was riddled with?

Possibly not. Possibly they thought people could buy into it.

Seriously, when I am lynched and proven to be town, where is that going to leave the rest of the town?

Except you are scum and we win. I can do that pre-empting outcomes thing really well too, see?

Mana_Ku:

Don't worry armlx, I know. Appeal to emotion according to you.

Actually no.

[armlx]

right, and where exactly are those posts that "fends off attacks like none other"?

I doubt the experience pair has been under attack and needed to fend off them just yet.

[armlx]

Thanks. Something else to consider: why did I wait this long to start a vigorous defense of myself?

It's a trap? Is that your point?

[armlx]

You didn't say tunnle vision is good, but a mod/IC who tunnle visions, while every mod/IC say in the newbie games say that tunnle vision is bad. Does that seems pro-town to you?

You can't dismiss a case as tunnel vision just because you say it is.

[armlx]

I'm not dismissing it. But now that you have reacted, do you agree with tunnle vision or not?

Tunnel vision is a bad thing. This is not tunnel vision, as you have actually done something scummy. Tunnel vision most often applies when a person thinks something that isn't a scum tell is, and attacks based on that and responses to that attack.

[armlx]

Now I'm interested in what I've done.

The whole case on you + Adel that I have stated before?

[armlx]

Are you saying that armix is pro-town, and armix is tunnel visioned, but tunnel vision isn’t pro-town?

I have a response to this after Emp says something.

[armlx]

Fine, can we all agree to not hammer until the chart is done then?

[armlx]

Unvote

I'm going to revote once the info is provided, but I definitely endorse this kind of action.

[armlx]

I believe random ended when I voted Jebus.

[armlx]

And armlx, at post 273 you say something about a comment. Can we hear it now or does it still have to wait?

I think Emp responded, but I wanted to say that not pro-town != scummy always.

Jahudo has been waffling on Adel/Jebus all game. Me no like. Supports the Caboose + Adel team theory.

Vote Adel

as I said post diagram.

[armlx]

Do you think that Caboose and Jahudo are lovers?

I'm really confused here. I thought they were for some reason.

That said I could see OF + Jahudo.

[armlx]

Its possible. I'm really at a loss here: I find your + your predecessors actions incredibly scummy, I just am having issues fitting that in with the set up. Currently the former is over riding the later.

[armlx]

What do you mean by waffling? That I don't support the Adel/Jebus wagon but have not found a different place for my vote? I don't think that means I could justifiably put my vote on Adel/Jebus without something new happening with Adel or Mana that I perceive as scummy. Yes, I'm not 100% sure on them, but I am much more confidant that this is a mis-lynch.

You definitely were pressuring Jebus lightly early on after his posts.

I can vouch for the Empking doesn't really think much thing based on a different, ongoing game.

[armlx]

Yeah, it was posted a couple pages ago.

[armlx]

I'm posting this in all my games. My computer power cord just broke again, same issue as last time. I'm going to be on LA for a week or two while I wait for a new one to arrive.

[armlx]

I still like lynching Adel.

This.

[armlx]

I'm starting to wonder about Adel. Who do you think is there scum partners if Adel is scum?

One of the groups with 1 vote on Adel.

[armlx]

I've become convinced SC is the best lynch for today after basically splitting between the 2 big wagons the past couple pages, but unvoting doesn't help at all as I still think there is a decent chance Adel is scum.

[armlx]

Unvote, Vote Karne

I fail at reading the VC. I only read SC had 0....

[armlx]

There's a night in this game?

[armlx]

armix: Why did you vote for Karne if you thought Adel/Man and Caboose/Farside were the two scum pairs?

I thought that IF adel was scum, Caboose + Farside was the other pairing. SC moved way up on the scum meter for basically saying "I'll lynch whoever has more votes"

[armlx]

Adel, how was SC's lynch supposed ot be more informative?

[armlx]

@armlx: I like this setup because it is an elegent puzzle where in order to catch scum you have to first figure out who can't be scum with whom and who is town. There simply isn't enough days in this game for attrition to reveal who is scum, townies have to use logic to have a chance.

After the game I'd be interested in discussing the set up more.

Llama was definitely lurking this game though. Emp hasn't really instilled much confidence (though he rarely does), and Goat hasn't really done much. I don't really see a Farside vote going anywhere right now (at least anywhere productive).

Vote Llama

[armlx]

EBWODP.

Vote Goat

Thats what I meant.

[armlx]

You haven't done much all game except vote CK.

[armlx]

Why is that enough to vote for me yet nothing productive would come from pursuing farside?

Also, couldn't it be argued that you haven't done much all game except push for Adel?

I feel a wagon on farside is going to net 0 info. At best.

I pushed adel. You did less then that.

[armlx]

1. Why is a farside wagon going to net 0 info whereas my wagon is going to net info?

Have you ever tried to info wagon Farside?

And its the absence of real stuff until really late, and your only vote being on a townie, that I don't like.

[armlx]

I think I figured it out.

Adel knows this set up better then anyone. She would know to mention the "every other group voting them" town tell as scum. Said tell only came into effect when EmpKing voted her.....

Calling it now, Adel/Mana/Goat/Emp scum group.

[armlx]

Oh, and Goat, 2 > 1. Just saying.

[armlx]

Would I know enought to realise the "everygroup voting for her"?

You would have access to a QuikTopic where it would have likely been mentioned......

[armlx]

At post 255, Adel mentions that every pair is voting us. Besides, Goat has a point as well. Does it make sense for Emp to put Adel at L-1?

If he knows Adel can dispel the wago nwith that tell, yes.

[armlx]

You're saying Adel posted it in the quiktopic?

That was my implication: That would be exactly the kind of thing adel would discuss pre-game.

[armlx]

But Adel is a replacement. He couldn't have talked about it.

I definitely forgot that. Logical fail.

Still think Goat is scum trying not to connect himself to anyone. Still think Adel is scummy for all the things I said before.

[armlx]

I was thinking this myself, but leaving a scum buddy on L-1 for so long without concern about a hammer seemed farfetch.

This set up calls for it though. The benefit would be really high for that plan.

[armlx]

This is a new point.

No, it was pretty much the original point.

[armlx]

Would it be helpgul for us to list our most loikely scum pairs?

Also most likely town.

I think Goat + Jahudo is my current top pairing. Its either that or Adel + Farside.

[armlx]

I am against that on principle, but if the mod lets us I'm all for it.

[armlx]

Adel already made her comments in thread. You didn't object or have issues then.

Again, the mod didn't have any issue with it at the time.

[armlx]

Emp.... you kinda just broke this rule

The next person to claim how many posts were in the QuickTopic gets modkilled. You can paraphrase what was said, but don't quote it. Claiming the exact number of posts you made is close to quoting what was said, so I'm serious about this.

I assume this means we will see if I was right about Goat soon.

[armlx]

Yeah, that would have been correct Mana Ku.

Also, why would it mean replacement over straight up kill?

[armlx]

No, that's pretty much what is going to happen.

[armlx]

That's why I want to have a replacement if this would mean a modkill.

Replacing Emp doesn't fix the issue though.

[armlx]

I'll just leave this issue to xtoxm...... He decides if Empking broke the rule or not.

This.

[armlx]

I say we just continue with the claim and no one else be a dumb ass before we start analysis.

[armlx]

Doesn't Goat decide who goes next?

[armlx]

I realize. Emp apparent doesn't.

[armlx]

Uhh, yeah, what mana ku said.

The level of OMGUS is unreal from Emp. I like my vote where it is.

[armlx]

Instead of reasoning their points, you are misrepresenting and attacking them. That's why its OMGUS.

[armlx]

God Goat can you get a muzzle for your lover.

*insert obligatory bondage joke, possibly bestiality one given the connotation of muzzle*


Anyways, kloud and I didn't say much. Basic summary

K: Hi
(couple days go by)
A: I kinda forgot about this whole pre-game discussion thing. Just replaced into the other one of these, nothing really pops out to me to say about the set up.
K: Vote counts are probably good to look at.
A: Ok

[armlx]

I don't understand the purpose of saying who goes first, but w/e.

I say Jen goes first. Replacement is going to have a more difficult time piecing a fake convo together.

[armlx]

I really don't like the people who made a conversation paraphrase instead of their part paraphrase.

Why?

[armlx]

The lack of conversation from armlx/kloud and llama/goat I find highly questionable knowing both people as I do. The only reason I didn't talk as much is my lover was replaced right before the game started and we had only 24 hours to talk so I made it quick and to the point.

Elaboration would be nice here. Why is it out of character for me, especially when there's no relevant info to discuss pre-game? I find this surprising as usually I'm yelled at in game for being too concise.

[armlx]

You stated you just joined one, but kloud just said to look at votes. Seems like an out of the blue comment to make.

I assume he quickly skimmed the other games.

[armlx]

Farside, I don't think you understand. As town, what is there to talk about pre-game in this set up?

[armlx]

Why does matter if you discuss those pre-game rather then just point them out in thread when relevant?

[armlx]

Farside, I don't think you understand. As town, what is there to talk about pre-game in this set up?

How many times do I need to quote this:

You should talk about what the game is about. Things to look for. Should people claim lovers. What is the best things to look for when looking for scum. Something like that would be ideal especially from some people in this game.

Again, why?

[armlx]

The question is why wouldn't you talk about the game. The question should be why didn't you talk about the game. To me those being vague on there discussion is more suspect.

Again, my question is what the hell is there to talk about. The main reason to talk to a mason/scum partner outside the thread in a normal game is information that you don't want revealed at that time. There was no information in pre-game.

Unvote, Vote farside

for making a bull shit case.

[armlx]

Why would you not talk more with your lover knowing it would be the only chance to talk about what scum could do.

I can just post that in thread when they do it?

[armlx]

I agree with the principle farside is stating above. The every group tell is no longer valid.

[armlx]

This is true, if not terribly likely. That means in order for you to be town, one of the scum must be inactive. So let me ask you this: who is the inactive scum?

This.

[armlx]

But I can unvote if someone wants to debate that "Farside/Caboose are town and Goat/Emp are scum" scenario is true.

I think both are scum frankly.

[armlx]

Armlx, you asked who the inactive scum was. Farside gave an answer to it. What do you think about that?

I think its valid in the scenario she isn't scum. That's not the scenario I'm considering now.

[armlx]

TSPN makes one of many valid points that lead me to not move my vote.

[armlx]

Why is my vote on armlx an issue?

Because your argument about lurker scum if you are town.....

[armlx]

My point against jenethron is based on the fact I am town and no one else is hammered. Why vote on someone who isn't here when I think you are their scum partner?

So, you are sure Jen is scum, and speculating I am their partner, and you are voting me.

See the issue?

[armlx]

He probably thinks you are scum....

[armlx]

Him pulling his vote or even you to give me time that I requested does nothing but help the scum look for time needed for the quick hammer.

Except I think you are scum, and you are trying to stall your wagon till it collapses by getting me to move my vote.

[armlx]

Well, the game's over. Set up discussion time.

This set up is fundamentally flawed in that it starts off favoring the town (see the whole random lynch thing), while at the same time it maximizes the effects and ease of scum hunting. I expect town win percentage in this set up given even play skills on both sides is at least 70%.

[armlx]

crap I was not expecting that.

I'm actually not surprised.

[armlx]

Yeah, scum win.

We were pretty screwed once farside asked what game it was, so I figured we had to just end it ASAP. Glad kloud saw the same thing.

That's because Armlx knows how to push my buttons and seeing someone I believe town being stubborn about an unvote for time makes it useless for me to do any analysis. I would rather not waste my time while the scum come in and quick hammer.

This is very true. I apologize if I was a dick about it.

[armlx]

farside, you actually had a really good out in that scenario that gave away the truth. Goat also wasn't voting you, so you couldn't be sure whether Goat or Jen was the lurker scum, but as both Kloud and I were voting you we had to be scum with them unless both were.