Mini 653 - Family Guy Mafia - Game over

[LlamaFluff]

/confirm

[LlamaFluff]

vote goborage

for even thinking about character claiming

Of course given a restriction of mine I doubt that vote will be of much use.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote: Kmd4390

You're what the Spaniards call El Terrible.

Again, a complete character claim isnt the best path to take D1, this will simply add speculation which is not needed. This is the type of time I wish my vote counted.

[LlamaFluff]

Not a character claim. I suppose the first quote didn't really make sense (it was something along the lines of "this is my house"). #2 being Cleveland was coincidence. I just felt that that needed to be said.

Fair enough, two quotes from a secondary character was unusual though. Im assuming you see my point in thinking character claim is bad though?

Anyways if anyone is making early claims it's you. What's the point of telling us that your vote doesn't count? Are you trying to pass this off as some kind of pro-town role handicap? Why would anyone other than scum do that?

Well just wait for the votecount, my vote never gets counted. I got hit with a restriction, lucky me. If I didnt claim at VC people would start trying to figure out who was causing what to happen regarding why the votes were off, so I decided to put out my restriction early on. This saves time later.

[LlamaFluff]

We've already had one of the players tell us of a restriction, that involves us not seeing their vote. This may have something to do with it. And since that person said the restriction caused their vote not to count, it may work both ways. Some won't show and will count, some won't show and won't count, some will show and won't count... That's what I'm seeing, anyway.

Correct, with me on a wagon it basically becomes 8 to lynch instead of 7. I do think goborage should be getting a few votes though, apart from the name claim thing, his willingness to put me under suspicion for just having a vote restiction is scummy to me.

[LlamaFluff]

Anyways as a townie it is my duty to scrutinize your every move LF.

Labling me scum for having a vote restiction is in itself scummy though, not a town action. Given rule 12 I doubt im the only one with this problem too. My attempts to end RV stage over this seem futal

[LlamaFluff]

If you are town, you have just told the scum that you are a voteless townie, and that they don't want to touch you at night. The optimal strategy of a voteless townie is to keep trying and try to attract the NK.

So, if you are town, you have been careless.

Why did you claim?

First off, why does careless = scum? I am playing the way that I think is best to play with a detremental vote restriction, which is to put it out there right away.

I claimed so people know that something is wrong with my vote. There is nothing wrong with that to me, its like claiming miller. A headsup to the town that later on in the day my role might start causing problems for the town. I really dont see what is wrong with what I did, you only seem to criticize me because it leads to a lower chance of me getting NKed, which again will hurt the town because...?

One thing that we need to realize about role claiming is the mod will very very likely not make it so scum loses in a character claim. This would be a poor move on their side and I dont see farside doing this. I am sure if you think of every character and episode you can connect them as scum somehow. This is why character claiming and speculation is bad, it will simply lead to cases that are built on who the player is and not what they have been doing, which is easily exploited by scum.

[LlamaFluff]

So voteless roles get us closer to LYLO.

So does a mislynch.

It is not a good lynch unless you really think that llama is scum.

QFT

So even if you are telling the truth, you are still useful to get rid off, anf lyncing will be the only way, as you have such an anti-town role. And, we might get scum.

This is a very anti-town mindset

unvote
vote xtoxm

[LlamaFluff]

woa guys its still early in day 1 and xtoxm is already at l-2? I'm not sure bout that- we've barely had time to gather any info at all.

Well my vote doesnt count remember that is a little fast though. I think that might change though when Crub who random voted him checks in next. Right now I am happy with my "vote" though

However, you just are commenting on the ammount of votes and not what you think of him. What are your thoughts on the happenings, not the ammount of votes people have.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote

Are you guys serious?

So who is scummier then xtoxm right now?

Unvote, Vote Dalt

Seemed like a very sneaky attempt at trying to get more people on Xtoxm's bandwagon.

Is this you saying you dont agree with the wagon? If not why?

[LlamaFluff]

Is this you saying you dont agree with the wagon? If not why?

No, I don't support the wagon. It's rolling too fast and I kind of agree with xtoxm's point. Not saying I think you're scummy or that you are best candidate for a lynch, but your claim is pretty bad in a LYLO situation.

So who is scummy then? You are just shooting down all different suspects without giving us any of your own here.

[LlamaFluff]

LlamaFluff informed me he will be on V/LA for about 3 days. This is fine. I will not replace anyone who informs me of time off unless the time off is excessive. Also be aware of Rule 10 when it comes to not only prodding, but posting context. Thank you.

Well starting monday...

My point about LF is that he is either an anti-town role, or full blown scum. If he was 100% cleared then I wouldn't want him lynched, but he can be scum. So I think this makes him a very good day one lynch. I did not say I think LF is town, but I want him lynched anyway. I've found his claim to be quite scummy, actually.

*facepalm* Ok, so because I have a vote restriction it makes me a policy lynch? Thats really all I am getting from you for why you are voting me. I know my role isnt the most powerful thing in the world, but you are saying that simply because its weak im the lynch. Why is the claim scummy too? Do you have information to suggest that scum have voting handicaps?

Given this last post I still like a xotxm lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Did you really think it was a good idea to claim this early? Are you really surprised by people casting suspicion on you?

I did expect some questioning and a little suspicion but I never expected someone saying policy lynch.

You could have easily played around it without giving information that could be very vital to scum. I believe your claim although it was a terrible idea to claim. Just because careless does not equal scum doesn't give people liberty to do so.

Well I misinterpreted my PM when I claimed believing my vote never showed or counted so made a quick claim to avoid confusion at the first VC. Now I know it shows but doesnt count so would of withheld claiming unless I was on a lynching wagon.

I will not support your lynch based on Xtoxm 's logic and I think he is being careless in that, or scummy. Take your pick.

Well xotxm is the scummiest in my book right now, earning him my "vote", and I look forward to hear some more from him on his policy lynch. The only other people who have pinged me a bit are goborage and IG.

[LlamaFluff]

Well xotxm is the scummiest in my book right now, earning him my "vote", and I look forward to hear some more from him on his policy lynch.

It is not a policy lynch, I never said that and you are putting words into my mouth now. Please don't.

Well im probally not using the right words, but I really dont know what I can even say to you if you are going to vote me purely based on a role. Maybe its not a policy lynch of a player but of a role (again not sure if this is the right wording). Will you at least consider other suspects at this day drags on or should I just not even try to convince you to do anything else?

Question to you though - If you had my role would you be asking for people to lynch you if it got outed?

[LlamaFluff]

2. Dalt's voting of Xtoxm: You simply jumped on the vote, after having said nothing about it, not even bothering to give it a QFT or anything of the such. What about Xtoxm got you, personally, to suspect him enough to vote?

Does this mean if he added a QFT you wouldnt of cared about this vote?

[LlamaFluff]

No, I was giving an example, like how the very post that he quoted contained such a phrase.

Wait, no you would care or no you wouldnt of cared?

[LlamaFluff]

I don't really get the wagon on xtoxm. He raises good points you know.

His only point is my role isnt strong for town. I have yet to hear any points from him or anyone about my play being scummy. If you think there is anything except my role against me then please, enlighten me. I ask the same thing to you though as I did xtoxm. Would you be selfvoting if you were in my position?

Im going to try and calm myself and reread. I dont like xtoxm's stance to much but can see it from paranoid town.

[LlamaFluff]

Skimmed a bit, im having a hard time getting a observer standpoint given my involvement level. RF needs to post again, preferably a continuance of post 63 given how hesitant he was to act back then (for decent reasons though). I would like to hear more from thinktank and BG.

I still dont like gobo or xtoxm but am calming a little on those fronts.

GW now is confusing me. In 89 he brings up dalt for the xtoxm wagoning, without adding any reason for the vote and pressing for more reasoning. In 96 however he posts that with reasoning he still would of disliked the vote, which means that he is on dalt for placing xtoxm at a fourth vote instead of not supplying sufficent reasoning. I dont like how the reasoning for pressure changed from lack of reasoning to placement of vote here. So while pressuring dalt who is turning into a wagon GW seems conflicted on the reason for the pressure and is not voting for him.

unvote, vote GhostWriter

[LlamaFluff]

Well I have this down as a question/response

2. Dalt's voting of Xtoxm: You simply jumped on the vote, after having said nothing about it, not even bothering to give it a QFT or anything of the such. What about Xtoxm got you, personally, to suspect him enough to vote?

Does this mean if he added a QFT you wouldnt of cared about this vote?

No, I would have cared.

Your intial post against dalt sounded like a QFT was acceptable so that is what I acted on. So does this mean if dalt wrote out some reasoning (not QFT) then you would not of turned to him as suspicious? A yes or no here, no a most likely.

My point of you calling him suspect while his wagon is forming and you not voting him still stands though.

[LlamaFluff]

If he had written a reasoning with his vote, and actual reasoning, then no, he would not have seemed suspicious, because at least it would have looked like he was doing more than jumping on a bandwagon.

Alright so the move against dalt was based on how the wagon was joined. Not based on what vote number he was or the wagonee

And what bandwagon on him are you seeing? He has ONE VOTE. That hardly seems like a bandwagon, unless the meaning of the word has changed, in which I will admit that I'm wrong.

IG and xotxm are voting him now. With you and at least one other mentioning him its the closest thing we have to a second wagons so I am treating it as such.

Why am I not voting him? Because that reason alone is not enough for me to warrant a vote. I prefer to use my votes like a doctor uses a scalpel, not swing them around like a sword. If I were going to vote him, it'd be to create pressure, but I'm not going to do that. One reason is that this can be done with words, as I was trying to do with the initial post involving the QFT statement. Another is because he still has not shown up after A) The first vote was placed upon him and B) My question to him was asked.

Fair enough, I usually vote quite a bit during the first day untill I start getting a clear idea of what im actually doing, and react badly to people who dont like voting. At what point would you feel dalt should be voted though? Dalt does need to talk though.

unvote

for now as I wait for a response from goborage.

[LlamaFluff]

bump to above the lock happy MeMe as I still wait for goborage

[LlamaFluff]

Goborage looks strange to me. He defends himself against allegations of character claiming...then proceeds to all but character claim in the very same post ("Being Cleveland is just a coincidence.") Since we've already been through how any character could potentially be a villain, especially in an essentially villain-free show such as Family Guy, it almost seems like scum excited to make a safe but of course uncontestable claim like Cleveland, a character that seems minimally suspicious.

This is good. I dont like how gobo is pressuring me for a role but it is understandable. What doesnt make sense is that he has only a FoS on me, and is still random voting kmd. It seems like he is trying to get a wagon started but isnt willing to contribute a vote as xotxm has already backed off the case.

I still want him to answer the last questions I asked him, and will go ahead and

vote goborage

untill he explains his stances and responds to my question.

[LlamaFluff]

And my suggestion did (does) make copius sense, as his presence, if town, move the day we reach lylo forward by one. So lynching him is no loss AT ALL. Either that, or he is scum. But for some reason you guys don't like it.

Ergh, again lets map out some situations to show you how your argument stalls out

D1 - I get lynched
N1 - town killed
D2 - Random town lynched
N2 - town killed
D3 - random town lynched
N3 - game over with town dead

This plan puts us at D2 with no information to go on whatsoever D1 and two town down. This also will lose the game if you are town since D2 you would need a miracle to talk your way out of lynching me, and basically leave us needing three straight scum lynches to win. All this with no vigs

Now lets look at it my way

D1 - random town lynched
N1 - town killed
D2 - random town lynched
N2 - town killed
D3 - my restiction no lynches us or town gets lynched
N3 - game over

This plan still leaves us with two mislynches to spare, and thats it. Unlike lynching me first, there is no backlash on town who votes me that would let scum drive at least one mislynch, and maybe win the game flat out.

The ONLY difference is if you want three town mislynches or two with a no lynch. With the second plan, town would know who scum was D3 with high likelyhood too, meaning that a no lynch opens doors for a vig picking off scum.

Plan two is much better by my planning, it provides us with much more to go on, and more information for the power roles. I still dont know if you are misguided town or not, but I dont like your defense of goborage. If you paid attention, my case on him was not completely dependant on him thinking im scum for my role. It has to do with how he is pushing the thought.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama -- why didn't you have a problem with thinktank or restfermata for bringing up characters?

gobo did it in a way where he implied who he was. RF called another player a character name (which is not claiming) and TT you would really need to be reaching to be calling that a claim. Gobo said two quotes from the same character in a way that he himself was saying them.

Im still a little busy but should be able to get fully caught up tonight with a bigger post.

[LlamaFluff]

@GW you are missing the point of why a claim is bad. In this game, any character can arguably be any alignment and have any ability. If we open it up to a massclaim, or even if a few people claim, people will start speculation on what characters are what alignment, what their roles are, and other things of that nature. Hell BG is already starting to do that and we dont even know if we had an actuall claim.

I think that if we had a massclaim (I am NOT suggesting one) I could point you to an episode that each character could be considered scum from their actions. However some characters would be more considered to be town and others scum. When everyone is known scum can start manipulating cases into partial attacks on who the character is.

So yes I got aggressive when gobo made two refrences to the same character in the way he did. Having people start claiming, even jokingly is a horrible thing as it opens the doors to speculation. I was not attempting to instigate a role claim with my actions but to shut down anyone from following suit.

[LlamaFluff]

It was you who first started pointing at him about a claim, no one else did until after you set it up to look that way, and THAT is why I have a FoS on you.

I know I did. That was intentional for the reason of character claiming being bad. Was I 100% beyond a doubt sure that gobo had just fullclaimed? No of course not. The thing was he was being very careless with his role if he is Cleveland, and could of been trying to instigate a mass character claim. In this setup I view character claim as a bad thing, so I wanted to shut it down before it even started to begin. I dont understand why that is a bad thing to try and do.

[LlamaFluff]

Ignoring the claim for the meantime, because it is a null tell (bastard moddery seems to be in effect in most theme games that I've been in).

Again this is kind of my point for the flip out. There is no way to tell what someone is by their character name. I wanted to kill any chance of people claiming characters accidently, jokingly, or flat out day one. I honestly dont know how many times I can say that.

Llama's (non?)vote has been moving around like a weathervane, and as we all know wishy-washiness is a big scumtell.

1) Gob (for thinking of character claiming - this after ONE Cleveland quote I might add, and right before he full claims his role)

yep, was semi-random then. I wanted to shut down any chance at him continuing it

2) Xtoxm (let's face it, this is pretty OMGUS, although I'm not sure I like Xtoxmm that much myself)

voting someone pushing bad logic on you really isnt pure OMGUS. The reason xtoxm was giving to get me lynched was horrible and anti-town

3) Ghostwriter (post 100... trying to make sense of this... go and look back, I guarantee headache)

Something wasnt adding up, I voted and prodded to figure out if it was worth persuing, it wasnt

4) unvotes a couple of posts later (post 104, but who's counting?)

GW explained it well enough for me, I had no reason to keep voting

5) Back on goborage (basically because goborage was afk I think)

Are you not reading my posts? I voted gobo partially on afk since he had not answered my questions. There also was the fact of how he was pushing me by simply agreeing with xtoxm while not even voting or continuing a case on me.

I tend to vote a lot in the early game, seriously go meta. Its a fairly logical path too but that doesnt seem something you are concerned about pointing out here. Semi-random Gobo for possibly claiming, xtoxm for his stance on my role, GW for something that didnt seem to add up, unvoted since it was explained well (adding this did nothing to your cases strength but made me look worse, nice scum play), and then gobo who I had declared intention to vote in 104, and after 24 hours of him not posting voted.

Given that you are gobo, and this case hinges on me flipping out at gobo for the claim thing which no one has explained how trying to stop a character claim is anti-town. And the second part is that I move my vote around a lot, which I do in every game, as my suspicions change. I am fine with my vote on you/gobo for now.

@RF - I posted a question to gobo in post 98. In 104 I brought it up again since it was unanswered (and again in 108). Finally in 112 I voted for gobo since 24 hours had passed since my 104. Unlike you though I dont like gobos replacement too much, since the case he is pushing against me is for something that no one has explained why its a scum-tell, and a voting pattern that when you look at my posting pattern is at worse a null-tell.

@BG - Am I correct that the only thing you have against me is the fact that I pushed gobo over the possible Cleveland claim? When you left the dalt wagon to vote me I guess that means EK wipes his slate clean and you decided to pressure me over calling an anti-town claim ?

[LlamaFluff]

I tend to vote a lot in the early game, seriously go meta. Its a fairly logical path too but that doesnt seem something you are concerned about pointing out here.

This basically amounts to "I always act scummy in early game, seriously, go meta."

I dont consider the way I vote scummy. I stated already that I had reasons and even spelled them all out for you again. What happens? You just ignore them, and say "oh thats scummy". A scummy vote is one that is opportunistic or has no backing. I feel each time I moved my vote it was for a legitimate reason and you havent shown me otherwise. You keep ignoring my defense of a poor attack and repete it, scum move.

Wishy-washiness is a scum-tell. You can't get around it by saying that you always do it. That doesn't make it ok, or right.

Damnit you arent going to listen to me are you? Tell me, show me, where my votes were bad. If you eliminate my first vote of the game I have cast three at this time. One for someone pushing poor logic, one for what I percieved as a vote for something different then stated, and once for pushing a case that wasnt being voted. That makes it ok and right to me, seriously, show me what votes I made are anti-town, tell me why, then we can have a discussion on whats going on.

Everything you've done so far has led to distraction of the town, for many pages. The goborage thing wasted the town's time for so long and was made up out of thin air.

*cough* crap argument *cough* I pushed the gobo character claim because it was a bad idea. Yes? Now I am defending doing that, if people would stop saying thats a reason im scum, then it will go away. I am not going to stop defending crap arguments though. You STILL are ignoring the rest of my case on gobo too.

Also, what is this BS that I am OMGUSing you when my vote was on gobo before you even replaced into this game? Gobo is my top scum pick so I am voting gobo. You replace in and still look bad, if not worse to me given that the case you are pushing on me is weak as hell and you arent countering any of my points, but simply reitterating your inital case

Given that I am starting to doubt you are closely reading my posts, I will make my points into nice little questions for you

1) Which of my votes are "anti-town"?
2) Why is trying to stop a character claim anti-town?

[LlamaFluff]

I still like looking at reborn more then BG at this point, when he came in he made pretty much a BS case on me right off the bat and still hasnt answered my last questions I posed to him, instead commenting on BG.

I also am interested to see where EKs push on IG takes us.

[LlamaFluff]

Good job spotting that BG/Xtoxm connection. It does seem very suspicious. When I have time to do a reread (probably tomorrow) I'll look into it some more.

I'd be OK with either an xtoxm or BG wagon, as well. If we lynch one and he/she turns out scum, it'll shed more light on the other.

Expansion on these two quotes would be nice.

[LlamaFluff]

alright guys you know what? I don't know what else to sat because I'm just gonna end up repeating myself over and over if I attempt to defend myself and I'm sick of being attacked. I am bonny, one half of a lover pair. I won't tell who my lover is- if he wants to announce it he can but if you lynch either one of us, the other dies as well.

........... wow

I honestly dont see why you just claimed this, you were at what L-5? With two people looking into your case and most others pushing other things? I dont see why you would of just pulled this type of thing. So - Do you know for sure your lovers alignment?

[LlamaFluff]

Well ive been thinking a bit about scum-town lover pairing, and im not sure the right path to take on it. For now though it seems lynching xtoxm/BG isnt the right move

@Lovers - Is it a instant or delayed suicide death?

That said I think that reborn and IG are the best paths to take. While I slightly prefer a reborn lynch today, lots of what IG says feel forced and scummy. Later on tonight I should have some more concrete stuff up on both of them.

[LlamaFluff]

this game hasnt been getting enough of my attention, I will should have a larger post up later today

[LlamaFluff]

First off

Do you think this makes him scum?

It makes him look more scum then town, but is not something to lynch him on alone. I have described to death why I think character claim is bad, so anything that I percieve as someone either claiming or instigating a claim is scummy in my book. There are other reasons I had gobo as scum though which I outlined in my 21. From the way reborn has acted around my case doesnt help quell any suspicions though.

Also for my restriction, when I first announced it I interpreted it a different way then it actually was. I thought my vote never showed up, while in actuallity it does show, but just doesnt count. Basically my vote is an FoS, so if I was on a wagon that hit 7 votes, it wouldnt lynch.

On to bigger things - the lovers should find out if its a delayed suicide or not. I have seen instant suicide games and ones where its delayed by either a day or night (ie BG killed N1 xtoxm suicides end of D2). Either way both lovers should be kept off the chopping blocks today.

My main suspicions hover around reborn and IG.

For reborn, the case he is pushing on me seems to of burnt out a bit. After I explained my vote reasoning, the case just seems to of been stopped and he now is arguing with dragon about how scumtells are universal or not. The OMGUS basically of dragon who has a good post up on reborn in 293. I still would like answers from reborn about which of my votes are opportunistic or scummy and reasoning behind them. Once I asked for that information he has gone quiet and now seems to be basing my case more on the fact that he thinks dragon is defending me.

In post 295 my kmd-town vibe commited suicide. While in dragons inital vote there was no overwhelming case, 293 was strong and it seems to of been brushed aside as you pick apart the summary case. Reborn and IG still are much higher then you though.

IG seems be speculating and fishing quite a bit about my restriction and the cleveland issue. There are no solid conclusions though regarding these things, leaving them at "Im not sure" allowing movement to any side of the issue as needed later on. After the lover claim, in two consecutive posts he speculates about a scum lover.

In his aggressions IG right now has EK for previously mentioned reasons (which I have a hard time finding) and me for being overzealous? Can you explain each of those a little better, especially how you are attributing me being overzealous to me being scum. The EK vote bugs me when it was cast too as EK "made some good points". Making good points is something that I naturally attribute to a town tell, maybe this was just due to having no other suspects at the time though.

So I think reborn still is the best bet today, he seems to just be falling apart right now in his argument with dragon, still isnt backing up the reasons he is voting me too well and just general scumminess. IG also doesnt look too well as he spends most of his time speculating about roles and his suspicions are either hard to find or completely baseless.

[LlamaFluff]

I think reborn and IG are better paths then trying to figure out if RF slipped or not, especially with a deadline approaching that I will have limited access around

With all replacement I have been pondering the possiblity of an extention. If enough people request an extention one will be given but it will most likely only be a 4 day extention at best.

[LlamaFluff]

First, why are we voting TT? Seriously can anyone give me any reason for voting him that is better then, I dunno, almost everyone? Really, this just seems a random wagon and BG is still making me uncomfortable.

I still like reborn more then any other wagon right now. Even if I lay aside everything that gobo did (well there isn’t much to lay aside) he looks pretty scummy. When he entered he immediately went after me, arguably OMGUS style since my vote was on gobo for having voted four times within three people. I have explained all of my votes and why I placed them already, but he still has not answered with an explanation of why any of my votes were scummy, just says that voting that much is wishy-washy and a scum tell.

Later reborn decides to call my vote of him (which was present when he replaced in) OMGUS. This is using false evidence to try and further a lynch of me. Also he is discounting my entire push at gobo for the “claim” thing as made up. While it is obvious that in gobos first and second post he does put out Cleveland quotes.

Following up with my push to get why my votes are scummy, reborn decides it is best to ignore my explanation of votes, and just say that I am metaing myself. There was no attempt here to explain which of my votes made me scum.

The whole dragon conflict more pisses me off than anything else. You guys really need to just break it into quotes and respond that way, it really isn’t too hard to do and helps me read it accurately. Your religion to the wiki here kind of bugs me though. It seems you read that wishy-washy voting is something scum always does, you might of seen it in a game once, so you are taking it as a universal constant. This does not make me mafia though, and it seems to be the main thing you are voting me because of.

The rest of this seems to be you yelling at dragon for poking holes in your case against me. If your case holds that little water, chances are its really weak. That honestly is one of my reasons for thinking you are scum right now. You come in an post a case that hinges half on my votes which you STILL have yet to explain which are scummy and anti-town and half on the claim thing which is my views on the game and is pretty indefensible.

The unwillingness to explain what makes my votes scummy and your misrepresenting me is enough to keep my vote right where it is, and should be enough to be attracting other votes.

[LlamaFluff]

No one has told me why TT is getting votes instead of reborn.

[LlamaFluff]

I May not be able to post until Monday night.

not gunna vote either are you?

[LlamaFluff]

I still would like a reborn lynch before an IG lynch, although this is a better path then TT. I think that IG should claim at about 72 hours to deadline though so we dont get stuck in a scramble for a target

[LlamaFluff]

mod

please prod IG

IG should claim now, that way we still have time to strike up another wagon if needed

[LlamaFluff]

Llama - If you are town, could you please stop using your "vote". It's just confusing. Could you instead use an FOS in place of your vote or something?

Fair enough

unvote

.

Im fine with the IG lynch, although I think a reborn lynch nets a better chance at catching scum.

[LlamaFluff]

You still haven't made a case on me.

I still like reborn more then any other wagon right now. Even if I lay aside everything that gobo did (well there isn’t much to lay aside) he looks pretty scummy. When he entered he immediately went after me, arguably OMGUS style since my vote was on gobo for having voted four times within three people. I have explained all of my votes and why I placed them already, but he still has not answered with an explanation of why any of my votes were scummy, just says that voting that much is wishy-washy and a scum tell.

Later reborn decides to call my vote of him (which was present when he replaced in) OMGUS. This is using false evidence to try and further a lynch of me. Also he is discounting my entire push at gobo for the “claim” thing as made up. While it is obvious that in gobos first and second post he does put out Cleveland quotes.

Following up with my push to get why my votes are scummy, reborn decides it is best to ignore my explanation of votes, and just say that I am metaing myself. There was no attempt here to explain which of my votes made me scum.

The whole dragon conflict more pisses me off than anything else. You guys really need to just break it into quotes and respond that way, it really isn’t too hard to do and helps me read it accurately. Your religion to the wiki here kind of bugs me though. It seems you read that wishy-washy voting is something scum always does, you might of seen it in a game once, so you are taking it as a universal constant. This does not make me mafia though, and it seems to be the main thing you are voting me because of.

The rest of this seems to be you yelling at dragon for poking holes in your case against me. If your case holds that little water, chances are its really weak. That honestly is one of my reasons for thinking you are scum right now. You come in an post a case that hinges half on my votes which you STILL have yet to explain which are scummy and anti-town and half on the claim thing which is my views on the game and is pretty indefensible.

The unwillingness to explain what makes my votes scummy and your misrepresenting me is enough to keep my vote right where it is, and should be enough to be attracting other votes.

I think we still can get this wagon off in time people

[LlamaFluff]

vote reborn

just incase my vote will break a tie. I will respond with a more indepth post probally tonight

[LlamaFluff]

"Everything gobo did". I want examples of what my predecessor did to earn your ire.

A lot of it was the claim thing which has since been resolved (talk about conincidence). There also was the shooting down of the xtoxm wagon while agreeing with the points xtoxm was raising. These were widly unpopular points though and he only commented on them while keeping his random vote out.

OMGUS? Utterly ridiculous saying that to me considering how hard you went after me when I dared to make a case on you.

Its because I view it as a crap case. The votes you still havent done a great job explaining which votes were specifically anti-town and why. For the claim thing, I would of acted the exact same way if put in the position again, I dont see how its considered scummy.

I HAVE explained why your wishy-washy votes are anti-town. Every time you vote you are distracting the town with your poorly considered arguments. I haven't seen one good wagon started by you yet. You went after Gob because of his "claim of Cleveland" which was a direct deception by you. I'm glad that's been put to bed now, by the way.

Why was my vote on xtoxm anti-town? Why was my vote on GW anti-town? I still like how you are reacting to me voting to try and shut down character claim though. I know quotes, and gobos first two posts contained quotes from the same person, I viewed it as a softclaim and didnt want it to start and epidemic of character claims. I still dont know why thats anti-town.

I did not use false evidence to call your vote on me OMGUS. Your vote was on goborage because of the so-called claim thing, and after that had been destroyed you had no reason to have your vote on me. Therefore, my only logical conclusion was that you were voting for me because I went for you. I was not going for you for that reason, I read through twice before I made my first posts and everything I did was carefully considered. I decided my top suspects were yourself and dalt.

Well I still held the claim as a scumtell, and given that it was not a claim now, I still hold it as a very poor move on his part. Part of the reason I am voting you though is that I feel the case you have presented against me is really weak, and you have not done a good job explaining parts of it, and other parts really dont hold water. It also sounds like part of your case against me is given my actions to gobo which is you so is OMGUS there. This case is based on the fact that you are pushing craplogic on me.

You were metaing yourself. And I explained about it. And people agreed.

And you still havent explained which of my votes were scummy and why, just that I vote too much.

The whole dragon conflict pisses you off more than anything else... wow. Dude, you've just admitted that the main reason you're voting for me is that I didn't format my post in your preferred way. Well, I'm sorry, but I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to STD, and it's a tried and tested method of responding to large posts. This isn't even a point against me, it's something you don't like about the way I use the internet. Unless you think I used a deliberately poor format to confuse and distract the town?

Misinterpreting my post that much has to be deliberate. I said the way you were posting was hard to follow, not that bolding responses makes you scum. Also said anything, not anyone. Nice to see you are reading my posts closely. That paragraph which I think you read the first sentance and then stopped at, was the fact that you are basing your case off the wiki saying that any tell in there should be constantly applied.

I was not yelling at STD. I was answering his points with my own opinions. Just stop hazing the town, seriously, because people read what you write, and if you're town please stop as you're doing more harm than good.

I am not sure how this is pro-town either, just because I am pushing you doesnt mean that you get to ignore my points or tell me to stop talking. Also hazing the town? Seriously, how do you haze the town? I think you are scum, I make a case, you flame me. That isnt the way things work.

And, once again, I did explain. Just because you disagree that doesn't make me scum.

Lets make this offical, answer like this

1)Llamas vote for gobo was scummy because -
2)Llamas vote for xtoxm was scummy because -
3)Llamas vote for GW was scummy because -
4)Llama unvoting was scummy because -
5)Llamas vote for gobo/you was scummy because -

[LlamaFluff]

On this particularly, well, I know i'm town obv, and from what i've seen of BG, i'm really thinking she's town too.

I have been starting to think this isnt true given that if we assume 3 scum and a vig out there, this is possibly a D1 lylo given my role and that we have lovers.

Think, D1 we lynch town
N1 - Scum kills town lovers
N1 - Vig kills random town

We enter D2 with 8 players, 3 scum and we cant lynch.

The town-scum lover possibility here is much higher then I think people are giving it credit for, and both of the lovers are scummy compared to most other players.

[LlamaFluff]

As a mod im partial to vigs so I always end up playing under the assumption one exists. What I did setup there though seems to be lylo caused by worst case luck and roles, it is highly unlikely, which makes me think either there is no vig or that we have scum-lover.

[LlamaFluff]

unvote vote xtoxm

You know, I really think that we have scum in this pairing. Especially after what reborn claimed. Town lovers + voteless + role that spawns NK seems like bastard modding that can end N1 if everything happens in the worse possible way.

I know this may seem out of left field but I really think there is scum in that pairing. I may of asked this before but - Are you confirmed town to eachother?

[LlamaFluff]

You know what I am going to get wagoned here so its probally time for me to claim as well. I am

Peter: Mod-Bastardized JOAT

.

Unlike the normal JOAT I have no controll over what ability I use, just my target. When I use a specific action instead, I lose my role but can vote. This night I can confirm IG with a specific action.

[LlamaFluff]

Lynch all Liars. You've already full-claimed.

Ever think there was a reason I specifically avoided answering all the questions where people kept asking me if my restriction was ever able to be alleviated? I saw no good way to respond to those without giving away why my vote would suddenly count.

[LlamaFluff]

And why the hell would you target IG?

Because I can confirm my role and his role at the same time. My role flavor also makes me think that he is just fakeclaiming an ability as scum. Reborns role fits the character well, my flavor fits my character well, IGs really doesnt line up with Cleveland though.

[LlamaFluff]

I'm not sure I understand what you wrote about your ability though. "When I use a specific action instead, I lose my role but can vote." You lose your role??

I no longer have any night actions available to me if I use a specific action, but my vote will count in the day. Essentially it turns me into vanilla townie. It took a few PMs to the mod to explain it to me.

Also, you say you can confirm IG. Don't you mean you can confirm or convict? Are you expecting him to be innocent? Do you

know

he's innocent?

I can confirm any action or lack of that he takes, if he targets someone, I will know. If he doesnt target I will know. His flavor doesnt fit to me like I have said, but being able to confirm a power role is the best thing that can happen.

[LlamaFluff]

It can do...With a random JOAT I think it's to just target who you think is scum. 3 of the options you wanna use on scum. If I had the role I think i'd be trying to get the kill out...Probably not the best way to use a random JOAT lol.

I have more then three random actions, which is why im a little concerned at using them since I have no clue what will come from them. Taking my known actions into account though, if we lynch scum today, I am going to random action someone in the grey area for the town. I might block a mafia sumbitting kill, vig off scum or something else beneficial.

I think withholding what I know I can do untill we are threatened with lylo is a good thing though, although now given two other claims I am trying to calculate the best way to go about confirming two roles without damaging a roled player as when reborn claimed my first plan got scrapped.

[LlamaFluff]

we have seen how well that worked... inventor, lover, lover, bodyguard(?)... I think this may just be the most off ive been in a game here.

@reborn - What do you think of flavor putting IG at bodyguard Cleveland? Given my roles PM flavor it just doesnt seem right to me.

[LlamaFluff]

@reborn - Town Drunk, at least I think thats what you are asking

[LlamaFluff]

Yeah, I always kind of assumed that Llama might have some other role besides voteless vanilla town. I just didn't want to pull an IG and step right out and say it.

I'm hoping by now someone can at least see why I've been speculating and leading the scum towards Llama.

Now how is getting someone you think is a powerrole nightkilled a good move?

I still am not too comfortable with IGs claim.

@IG - Does "Dang it all" have to do with your role as BG?

[LlamaFluff]

And I have no idea who to think scum is now...Pretty certain she's real cos that's not a clever thing to do if you're a scum that's about to die.

I guess we should lynch her anyway.

Why not shift the bandwagon or just no lynch then? We have a lot of stuff to go on so far for D2, the claim looks believable, so we are going to just kill someone we seem to think is town?

[LlamaFluff]

Why not no lynch? Seriously. I normally am against it on principle as well but after IGs last post I think the flavor fits a little better so I am more inclined to believe it. Reborn fits pretty well. I dont see mafia claiming vanilla when there is as much as we have seen so far to base a claim off of. I know we cant lynch the lovers today.

I think no lynch is the best move.

[LlamaFluff]

And I have no idea who to think scum is now...Pretty certain she's real cos that's not a clever thing to do if you're a scum that's about to die.

I guess we should lynch her anyway.

Why not shift the bandwagon or just no lynch then? We have a lot of stuff to go on so far for D2, the claim looks believable, so we are going to just kill someone we seem to think is town?

No lynch is a scummy suggestion! The scum get a free kill. And we are not going to shift the wagon because then another power role could be revealed and again and again until we've mass-claimed.

What EK is doing is null. It could be town giving up or scum not giving up. We have to lynch her before more power roles are revealed. Worst comes to worst we lynch a vanilla. Most games start that way.

You saying "lets lynch the vanilla" is scummy too. Do you think EK is scum or town?

unvote
vote no lynch

to make a point

[LlamaFluff]

A VT claim should not be lynched if they are confirmed town. I know EK isn't, but that's what it sounds like you are saying.

I know that I am dabbling in WIFOM, but I really cant see scum at L-2 claiming VT one day untill deadline when so many wagons have been tapped out. With that claim EK looks more confirmed then most of the power roles to me.

My other reason for wanting a no lynch is I can use a random action on a player at night and not have to worry about it being lylo due to no vote from me, we cant lose four players in a night I think

[LlamaFluff]

I think EK might be scum! We are not going to no lynch! Stop voting for no lynch before I go back to voting for you LF!

Ok lets say we lynch EK - What do you expect her to flip?

[LlamaFluff]

MOD,

I say end day right before you go away. That way night actions can get sent in while you're away and then game back open then.

Why do you suggest that, when it can only lead to you being lynched?

Probably because you seem to be buying into all this self-sacrificial rhetoric she's doing.

Do you know how easy it is to come up with a fakeclaim for Chris given how much you see of him in episodes? I could buy hider due to evil monkey, some sort of watcher/tracker due to paper route.

You also never gave me a definate answer: EK is lynched - Is the flip town or scum?

[LlamaFluff]

You also never gave me a definate answer: EK is lynched - Is the flip town or scum?

I can't see the future, and I'm not scum so I can't know the answer. I hope she's scum.

*facepalm*

Lets try incentive.

Someone offers you $50 if you guess EKs alignment correctly, what do you think EKs alignment is?

[LlamaFluff]

You also never gave me a definate answer: EK is lynched - Is the flip town or scum?

I can't see the future, and I'm not scum so I can't know the answer. I hope she's scum.

*facepalm*

Lets try incentive.

Someone offers you $50 if you guess EKs alignment correctly, what do you think EKs alignment is?

Lol.

What's the point you're trying to make, Llama?

It sounds like reborn has EK leaning town. Given that he still isnt saying yes or no. I am pretty sure its yes

[LlamaFluff]

I am at the point where the only feaseable options I see are no lynch or a lurker lynch. I think no lynch is the best option though given that just about all of the popular suspects have been forced to claim.

I think EK is town, I think reborn is town. IG is probally town with a few nagging suspicions after his last post. I think one of the lovers is scum, but no one seems willing to go for that today. That leaves a lot of people I have been leaning pro-town or at worse 45/55 scum on, of which I really dont think any make for a great lynching candidate.

[LlamaFluff]

Reborn, why are you avoiding llama's question.

I think I believe EK's claim but I don't like the suggestion that all vanilla are chris. It opens up a fake claim for scum to just say "you can't counterclaim, there are more than one of this character."

I'm not avoiding it, I've been very clear that I don't know EK's alignment.

Thats avoiding it. I have been saying "I think EK is town". You have been saying "I cant see the future". There is a distinct difference there, while I am committing to a stance, you keep avoiding commenting on what you percieve EKs alignment to be. "I hope he is scum", "I dont know", "Im not scum, how should I know" are not answers that work for this question.

[LlamaFluff]

I would prefer lurker TT to an EK lynch. The two votes on him right now are from a claimed BG and what I would guess is the town part of a lover pair. I think EK is just getting lynched so we can lynch someone, who in this case just feels like town. Letting town get lynched is worse then no lynching. Lynching a lurker will accomplish a lynch, plus start another wagon that we can compare to the EK wagon. So far our only wagons have been unanimous for the most part, so regardless of EKs alignment, there wont be much to gain from looking at those vote.

TT, lovers or no lynch. Nothing else looks good to me today.

Just incase my vote will break ties though

unvote
vote ThinkTank

[LlamaFluff]

I agree with this, but your logic of "she claimed vanilla and is therefore town" makes no sense.

I think it makes sense, while I would rather lynch EK over you or IG right now, I would rather lose the lovers or go for TT/no lynch today. It seems my attempts at getting this point across are futle though.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama: You need to talk less. You're not helping at all.. No lynch? Seriously?

You would rather lynch reborn, IG and me instead of no lynching? While no lynch isnt the best thing we can accomplish today it sure beats lynching a claimed power role that you believe. I can get behind the lover lynch just because in isolation both of the players appear to be good scum picks.

I dont see no lynch being the worst thing we can accompish today, and would prefer it to a EK lynch for afformentioned reasons. I also dont really appreciate shooting down the no lynch idea in that way, as a town we have completely gone haywire here and seem to be bouncing around and making a bad situation worse and worse. Most of the suggested targets are now town in my book, RF, GW, kmd, STD I think shouldnt be the lynchee today, leaves you, lovers and no lynch in my mind.

[LlamaFluff]

TT has been a lurker for most of this game and I sit about 50/50 on him, that makes him an acceptable lynch today given how many people we have completely bypassed. While lovers are preferable to me he is my second pick for lynchee right now.

Kloud I dont have a solid read on, very slight town read really. I wouldnt be surprised at all with Kloud turning up scum or turning up town. Kloud should of been in the "Dont want to lynch" today section though, I just missed his name.

[LlamaFluff]

TT has been a lurker for most of this game and I sit about 50/50 on him, that makes him an acceptable lynch today given how many people we have completely bypassed. While lovers are preferable to me he is my second pick for lynchee right now.

Llama, something you don't understand but need to -

If you have a 50/50 read on someone that means that you think 50% of the time they are scum, 50% of the time they are town. That means you should ALWAYS lynch them because it will ALWAYS be the profitable and correct move in the long term. If we lynch 6 people with 50/50 reads on then we will, on average, kill 3 scum and most likely have won.

Because the scum make up probably a <30% part of the town, any chance of getting them which is larger than 30% is always correct and profitable in the long term. Those are the hard decisions we have to make when dicing with death.

Something you might not understand: A 50/50 on a player does NOT mean that they are going to be town 50% of the time and scum 50% of the time. To me a 50/50 means you have no read on the player. As alignments of others show up, and players participate more (grrr TT) reads become better, and start leaning to a side. If forced to choose between a town read and a 50/50 sure you kill the 50/50. Given what I know that my role can do though, I want to no lynch before killing off a 50/50 player.

Also "any chance about 30% scum kill them" is stupid. If you think someone is 2/3 chance at being town, why would you ever lynch them? I dont think your logic there is at all accurate, by it I would need to support the lynch of every single player right now.

I still would be happy with a lover lynch, and should have more up on xtoxm up fairly soon, but have a very busy weekend coming up right now. I still think EK is what she claims, but I may just be a sucker for WIFOM at this point. I have my reasons for no lynch, which I know arent going to be accepted, but if we dont no lynch I like lovers or TT.

[LlamaFluff]

It's not logic, it's maths. If less than 30% of the town are scum and you have a 30% chance of catching scum by lynching someone, and you can do that as many times as you like, town wins. Fact.

It still isnt the right move to just start lynching everyone who is over 30% scum chance though. Under 30% to me is either role confirmed or single handedly led wagon, which means that if I followed this I should just be dice rolling each day and then asking people to bandwagon the lucky winner.

I am not going to lynch because someone is 50/50, and I sure as hell am not going to lynch a 66/33 town leaning player. Your forumula there is dependant on luck of the RNG, its can you hit three 1/4 chances or six 3/4 chances first.

[LlamaFluff]

I want to put some pressure on reborn. I am really starting to get uneasy about this whole double JOAT thing. The JOAT is a powerful role. Llama's was toned down. reborn's apparently is superpowerful and essential to the town. Unlynchable. Yet the character he claimed has homicidal tendencies and, apparently, so does reborn. Threatening us with the Death Ray and all.

Inventor fits his claim and it is not a JOAT although I am not sure if reborn really knows how his role works, because what he described really doesnt sound like a standard inventor role.

From my mafia knowlegde, inventor gives things to other players to use instead of using items on them. The recipiant can use the item on subsequent nights. When we factor in that reborn doesnt have set items like inventors I have seen, he might not even give something every night. Reborn is a bastardized-inventor, much like I am a bastardized-JOAT. Both our roles have the posibility to be increadably powerful for the town, or to backfire horribly.

[LlamaFluff]

I need to catch up quite a bit it seems. From a skim my main question is where did that kloud vote come from? I should have a better post up by tomorrow night at the latest though, had a much busier weekend then I ever expected to have

[LlamaFluff]

I dont think a proveable claim is the right lynch move here.

[LlamaFluff]

I still dont get the reborn lynch. I really think he is the inventor who misinterpreted his inital role PM.

[LlamaFluff]

I like voting and im a big proponent of always having a vote out, not having one just feels so wrong. Either way, why are we lynching reborn? The way he claimed really makes me think he is the inventor, if he is a SK that was one of the most impressive fakeclaims I have ever seen and almost impossible to prove. If he is scum, well I dont think he is scum for claiming such a proveable role, if he is a scum inventor that much have a lot of restrictions as well.

I say we still lynch TT, reborn is inventor.

[LlamaFluff]

Completely misinterpreting what the role he claimed does is

[LlamaFluff]

Misinterpretation is not telling, really. You can get a fake claim wrong, infact i'd think taht's probably more likely.

He claimed intention to use a deathray while speculating about what names for investigative and medical (if memory serves correctly) could be. I dont think someone would ever fakeclaim a role that they were not sure of how it worked, or even something as complex as an inventor (WIFOM I know). An inventor scum really doesnt make sense either, they just pass the invention to another scum and boom, two nightkills per night.

I think that reborn is town-inventor. I think that TT should be lynched. I think that people are going to ignore both of those facts though and screw up day one even worse then it already is.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama - To gain your vote, you have to sacrifice your power, right?

Can you do that in the same night as using your power?

Each night I can

1) Target a person on who I perform a random action
2) Target a person with a specific action

If I choose 2 my vote counts the subsequent day and I have no more night actions. I already have my night moves planned though regardless of what alignment gets lynched today though, no coaching.

[LlamaFluff]

I still for one dont understand the reborn wagon, at all. Would rather lynch almost anyone else at this point.

[LlamaFluff]

If you want to get a new wagon going, just saying "I want anyone else lynched" isn't enough.

If you are so confident, then try to instigate a new wagon on who you think is scum.

Yeah I know but I really dont have a whole lot on anyone else is my problem here. I do have a strong town read on reborn though, and they tend to be accurate. Given that we would need a scramble lynch, I would go with TT who really hasnt done a whole lot this game except try and get the lovers lynched.

Actually, I was voted by TT for trying to instigate a lover lynch at one point (531) D1, which he now seems to think is the best action possible. Hypocritcal scum lurking in plain site dies maybe? Not our inventor, hell I would even go for an EK lynch before reborn.

[LlamaFluff]

I would like a TT wagon more then a Kloud wagon right now due to his vote on me for voting the lovers and now his vote on the lovers

[LlamaFluff]

I would like a TT wagon more then a Kloud wagon right now due to his vote on me for voting the lovers and now his vote on the lovers

What page?

Post 531 (thats around pg 20 I think). Out of the pool of players being discussed now TT tops that list by a lot, a whole lot.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama, i've just noticed your "vote" is on TT. Please stop it, it's annoying...

If you save it until it's real you'll enjoy it all the more...

lol.

Fine

unvote

This goes against every fiber of my being though...

[LlamaFluff]

Yeh, but it's really no difference, as the vote doesn't actually do anything anyway, and we all know that.

Yeah I know... I just prefer to have every player have a vote out at all times. Thats why I had a mini-freakout when I figured that I wasnt able to vote.

[LlamaFluff]

Im tempted to pizza just so I have a post restriction to go along with my vote one... maybe its not best to tempt fate though.

This wagon shift is a very good one though. TT might want to claim kinda soon though, given the coming deadline and all.

[LlamaFluff]

Ive always played first to hit the tied number gets lynched. ie Player A and B have four votes, player A hit four votes three posts before player B, player A is deadline lynched.

This is a worthless topic of conversation right now though.

[LlamaFluff]

Pizza RF.

Annnnd... kaboom. kmd is killed by lightning. It is now N1.

I hope TT gets in here though before deadline

[LlamaFluff]

I can't believe we're actually having this conversation, but it's awesome.

I can't believe its not butter!

Actually I think this conversation is the result of a townwide depression over a 50 page D1 that has had six roleclaims and will deadline lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

I am Joe

So what... Joe the vanilla... Joe the mafia... what?

[LlamaFluff]

If I were Joe, I would have probably acted a little differently after BG claimed Bonnie, half of a lover pair, at least until Xtoxm said definitively that he was not Joe, which would be the expected other half.

This is why I didnt want a character claim. Of course now I am trying to comprehend how we have Bonnie-? lover pair and Joe by himself and both Joe and Bonnie still are town aligned.

TT hasnt claimed but I still think his lynch is the right one.

[LlamaFluff]

TT, your Joe claim seems out of the blue. As RF has said, your reaction towards the Bonnie claim seems a bit odd. The fact that you did not role claim also seems odd to me. I'm interested to see what happens now.

Really? I think its pretty obvious what we do here - Lynch TT scum.

[LlamaFluff]

I'd be happy to place my vote on TT, I just want to see how things play out for a little bit longer.

Well with a deadline in 16 hours (I think), what do you think waiting will accomplish?

[LlamaFluff]

I dont think mass action claim is a good thing really... but I guess is kmd recieved an item it confirms you are the inventor. I am rereading right now

[LlamaFluff]

Because I confirmed a player and would prefer not to out them today if necissary.

[LlamaFluff]

Now then, moving on. From that list you [dragon] posted, I'd have to go for EK.

Vote: Elvis_knits

This comment still makes me feel uncomfortable, its a vote to wagon that you wont have to take any credit for. Also because I still think EK is what she claimed, vanilla town.

I will post what I did when we start nearing a lynch so it isnt lost though, I just dont want mafia knowing what I know untill its needed to be public.

vote GhostWriter

[LlamaFluff]

Oh, and LF - With your JOAT power. When you use your random JOAT ability, and use something that doesn't give you a direct response (i.e. your investigation) are you told which power you used, or do you not know?

I will explain it all near the end of the day, like I said, no point in letting scum know more then they need to this early.

[LlamaFluff]

I see the possibility of scum-lover, but I am starting to second guess that actually happening and would prefer another day of conversation before lynching them (yes yes I know procrastinating again) but I like a few other lynches before the lovers today.

[LlamaFluff]

I never thought I would need the IC "too townie" speach in this game. Dont make me bust it out. I really think that GW is a better wagon then dragon. I have my suspicions about him, but it nothing like what I have regarding GW right now. I will do a vig kill if you want me to visually prove my role though eventually. Right now I am sticking to random actions untill dead town outnumber dead scum by three.

Basically yeah I still cant vote. I need you guys to be killing GW for me.

[LlamaFluff]

And thus onto my argument, as scum I can see he convincingly looking townie. He's not one of the one's i'm finding really town, but I wouldn't be calling him scum, on reads, basically.

That's exactly what I think of him. I'm afraid that if he

is

scum, I'll never be able to pin it for sure because he's such a good player. Unfortunately if he ended up a mislynch it could be a huge loss for the town in brainpower. I don't think an StD lynch is a good idea just yet. It's too much of a shot in the dark.

I am becoming increasingly sure of a GW/RF/Dragon scum setup. I should have stuff up on GW soon who is the most obvious of the trio

[LlamaFluff]

I believe she was under the same false impression as I was at the start that we were confirmed town to each other (I later cleared this up with the mod).

She's claimed early as town before.

Check her out in PYP3. She claimed cop on day 1, under very little pressure, cop dead N1.

This is why if there is lover scum its probally xtoxm, mixed with a few things I know. There is a low enough chance at lover scum though right now to hold of lynching them for at least a day. They really shouldnt be getting looked at right now, people like GW, RF, Dragon and even Kloud/EK are better.

[LlamaFluff]

Ok last night my random action did a jailkeeping move, I am not going to say who I targeted untill I am sure that no one else blocked the kill though. With a bodyguard I dont think we have a medical role that could of prevented anything though.

[LlamaFluff]

Incase it wasnt exceedingly obvious I used a random action on GW and it turned out to be a jailkeeping action. I think that I blocked GW from killing as he was not an obvious choice for NK at all with three claimed power roles, and IG lived through the night.

[LlamaFluff]

I still think GW is scum, and I will continue to think that unless someone else claims a way to of blocked a mafia kill.

[LlamaFluff]

Me? I got jailed? Okay, just wondering, LF, do you know what kind of jailing it was? Did it keep me safe from being targeted in general, or just from dying?

jailkeep = RB + protect, I know of no other type of jailing

[LlamaFluff]

Lets lynch GW, not rock people. I think they are both scum but I would like xtoxm around another day.

[LlamaFluff]

So you believe that by putting me, one person, in jail, I, alone, was kept from killing? And that other mafia could not kill without me? Not that I may have been targeted (no idea why, but it's an option) and was protected?

If I have a RB ability a certain mafia member makes the kill instead of the group as a whole. I think you were supposed to be submiting the kill, but I jailed you.

Basically though when you are jailed you are unable to perform any actions or be killed. I am not sure if it blocks things like investigations, but I am sure it blocks your kill.

[LlamaFluff]

No. No hammer yet untill I am 100% sure no one else could of blocked that kill. What happened was one of

1) GW was scum submitting the kill, got RBed
2) GW was targeted for a NK, got healed
3) Someone else stopped a kill

[LlamaFluff]

No. No hammer yet untill I am 100% sure no one else could of blocked that kill. What happened was one of

1) GW was scum submitting the kill, got RBed
2) GW was targeted for a NK, got healed
3) Someone else stopped a kill

This sounds like you're encouraging a mass claim. Let's not, k?

I dont want a mass claim but I do want anyone else who would of been capable of preventing a kill to claim. I dont think anyone else did though.

Also I dont think GW was targeted as mafia kill. We had me, reborn and IG all claim D1. I see no scum letting three power roles live and instead go for an unclaimed player who was regarded as 50/50 to PoE scum by most.

[LlamaFluff]

Fifth

[LlamaFluff]

Today we lynch GW. I random actioned him again last night hoping for a vig, but I think I made them a double voter.

[LlamaFluff]

I already have my night actions planned for this night, if we have a death ray out there the game should be won tomorrow. We dont explicitly need all town to vote GW as if town gets lynched by town-double voter scum-scum, we have death ray and specific JOAT moves to end the game.

[LlamaFluff]

From what I see N1 one of these two situations happened

1) Scum tried to kill GW
2) GW tried to submit scum kill

I dont would of targeted GW over a proveable inventor, proveable JOAT and a bodyguard. This just seems to be one of those situations similar to getting investigated with a sane cop.

I dont belive this claim mainly given the fact that the watcher is an informational role, informational roles at least *should* always get a result. In this case a "No one targeted X" or something along that line. As watcher is informational, I dont think it would get the same result as no visitors then "roleblocked". My second reason for doubting it is I dont see a catch. Yes a catch. Every dead non-vanilla has had a catch. I have no vote and random actions, reborn only names his inventions, plus could easily aid scum witht them, bodyguard in itself is a catch, lovers are a catch.

I really am not buying this right now. But once more for clarity

could ANYONE else of blocked a kill N1?

If you are town there is ZERO reason to keep this information to yourself at this point, as it is the reasoning behind the current wagon.

[LlamaFluff]

My whole getup is the fact that the only way you arent mafia is if scum targeted you N1. I really dont see that happening even with IG-scum given that there were *two* roles that were proveable at some point in the game. All that would of had to happen was NK-reborn, IG says "I protected Llama".

[LlamaFluff]

Also, GW if you could prove LF is innocent by voting for myself and LF that would be very helpful.

This isnt productive. GW should make a case on dragon and IG if thats who he thinks scum are.

[LlamaFluff]

(because, yes, I could make my actions when I was "roleblocked", because I sent in my action and got a response of nothing happening),

Wait...what? LF, are you sure your jailkeeping did what you sad it did?

Well I woke up with the keys to the jail, so at the very least GW was roleblocked. Last night I remembered giving away my vote, but GW hasnt proven that though.

I know no other form of jailkeeping apart from RB + protect, and given what my specific actions are, I see no reason to think that this JK is any different from the classic JK that you see in most games. I still think that GW is scum who just was unlucky enough to be submitting the kill, the watcher role doesnt really work for me as 100% town either, as its basically a weak rolecop when in the hands of scum.

I still dont see GW-town here. The claim of N1 and N2 actions being identical seals it for me though. Now I know I am dabbling in outguess the mod, but when roles are informational, they NEED to be told if they are roleblocked. Lets say GW is town for a second, and N1 she targeted reborn who was killed by rock. Now if I blocked her and she got "nothing happened" that is just wrong. You would get "You have been roleblocked" or "no result". I want GW lynched, and unless someone is going to take credit for the kill stop, im not going to stop this push.

@reborn - Sorry, I thought you were antagonizing GW, not trying to check and see if he can doublevote. From past experiance though for me doublevote is your vote counts double, not you can vote in two places.

[LlamaFluff]

Probally rule 12 - votecounts can be misleading. All I know is the result of my action sound like I gave GW my vote.

[LlamaFluff]

Now GW is scrambling. There is admission now that he was blocked, which means my JK worked the first night. No one else has claimed the ability to block any kill, at this point I think any town player would of, so the only remaining possibility is that my move blocked GWs kill.

I would say someone should unvote before GW self-hammers with my vote and takes away any addition to conversation from either kloud or IG. Its all about finding a scum partner to GW-rock now.

[LlamaFluff]

Then why was there no kill?

[LlamaFluff]

I dont think its misinterpreted given some of his lines. If you want I will hunt through and pull some of them up, but he is either 1) mafia or 2) bodyguard. I think its 2) bodyguard.

Self hammer if you want though, I know that I cant stop you.

[LlamaFluff]

I need you all to stay within the mindframe of me possibly being town. For fucks sake, before this whole roleblock thing, I was trusted by most of you.

Well you being town means I need to do some specific night actions which I dont want to put out ther in the case that you are really town, as there is no real reason to let any roles counter it.

The JK thing might of just been unfortunate though, I really dont know. I had a lot of underlying suspicions of you given what was going on regarding the early thread which I lost everyone on, and didnt want to target kmd because he seemed vig-bait. I actually almost just vigged the lovers N1.

You could be town, I dont think you are at this point, but I do have a plan of action for if that happens. When I look at the JK + rocks actions there really is no other alternative to what is going on.

[LlamaFluff]

I think its masslcaim time too given that this is probally lylo

[LlamaFluff]

Correct, and my action last night resulted in a RB so that makes someone semi-confirmed, but I do realize there are multiple scum. I would prefer to have Kloud claim first and popcorn from there, but any order works I guess.

[LlamaFluff]

My action RBed RF last night.

[LlamaFluff]

Lets see..

I RBed RF. So RF was unable to submit the kill
Kloud tracked EK. EK did not submit the kill
Reborn is inventor. Reborn did not submit the kill
I am town. I did not submit the kill.
EK was tracked. EK did not submit the kill.
STD... was the only person who did not have (at least a claimed) action done on or by them last night.

So - If Kloud is telling the truth about being a tracker, STD is scum by PoE.
However Kloud could be lying about his actions, which leaves Kloud, EK and StD as possible kill submitters.

At first take I have a hard time believing that Kloud is a tracker because watcher + tracker is a powerful combination. More after thinking and reading though. I would say either Kloud or Dragon is todays lynch though.

[LlamaFluff]

I am leaning to a Kloud lynch given that tracker + watcher + JOAT + bodyguard + inventor is a pretty strong town combo. It is the fact though that we have a tracker and watcher, two weak informational roles, that is bugging me. Also what bothers me is the fact that I was tracked N1 when my role was fairly proveable in comparison to IG who would never be able to prove a role and live.

I cant agrue with the EK or RF trackings too much, but the role smells a bit fishy to me. Then again given my role there sure isnt a whole lot I can do about it is there?

[LlamaFluff]

Why didn't you use a one-shot ability last night?

We really would have liked having your vote - if any town member votes for another town member the scum can quick double hammer now.

Six alive is four to lynch, if we lynch town then I know there was scum on the wagon and that is nice and vigable.

We will probally no lynch with a lot of information to go on for tomorrow. Its only lylo if we mislynch, not no lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

Actually is anyone against doing a no lynch, Kloud targets reborn who gives a proveable, day use (if there is such thing) invention to a player. Kloud claims the target and if he is wrong we have him caught?

Although that is partially odds needed, and goes on the fact that we have a proveable invention instead of a claim to invention ownage. It might work but there are probally better ways to test this.

[LlamaFluff]

If I did say that STD could be the only possible scum candidate, please point it out.

Your results do though. If you are a tracker then StD was the one submitting the scum kill last night. Still thinking about what the best way to try and check the claim here is.

[LlamaFluff]

If reborn gets NK'ed tomorrow night, that plan wouldn't work, Llama.

Yeah it does, someone will have an invention.

[LlamaFluff]

Probally, that might be good to clarify with the mod if we are serious about trying this.

[LlamaFluff]

Probally, that might be good to clarify with the mod if we are serious about trying this.

I can not confirm or deny the existence of any role or claim made.

Curses. I think that the action is successful as long as reborn doesnt get blocked though. I am almost ready to say "lets lynch Kloud", but want to give him one last post to lay down his thoughts.

[LlamaFluff]

I have a few ideas of plans that *might* work

I need more posts from our "tracker" first though.

[LlamaFluff]

@Kloud - Thanks. Also, who are the scum?

[LlamaFluff]

Its obvious that if we lynch today it has to be Kloud or Dragon. I just still am trying to figure out which one.

[LlamaFluff]

Anyway, LF, you seem to be the go-to strategy guy. I know you're still feeling a little undecided, but what are you leaning towards for today?

Hell I really dont like being the go-to person unless I have some secret information (or at least its not lylo).

Now, we know that at least one of Kloud and Dragon is scum. It could easily be both since Kloud seemed confused that his claim made dragon auto-scum. In fact out of the what... 20 something pairings this is one of my top choices. Make that is.

Now we have the fact that we have a lie detector in kloud, and a something in me. I have been trying again and again to see if there is ANY way to get a cheap win in. Lets get two things figured out though regarding reborn

1) Can you invent something twice?
2) Can you keep your invention?

If 1 is true, I think the best thing to do is the following - Reborn flips a coin and gives either RF or EK another lie detector. At that point we will see if they are of opposite or the same alignments by having them BOTH check, lets say Dragon saying "I have a town aligned role". If these come up as opposite, we have all the possible scum pairings laid out for us. If they are the same, it means that we have either Kloud-invention recipiant or non-recipiant/Dragon scum partners. While this is going on, I will do my best to stop a NK. If I do I will report it (NOT act on it so we dont pull another GW). We do the action again, giving another player a lie detector to find out more same/opposite alignments.

Wait no... damn... scum can lie about LD results. Wait yes, if they do they are selling out or condeming their partner. So nevermind. Yes I am thinking as I type, it works for me.

So this is what I think the best plan is

1) We no lynch
2) Reborn flips to give invention to RF/EK
3) I try and block a kill
----D5----
4) Invention owners both use it on an alignment claim from Dragon
5) From there we can get more of an insight into pairs and work from there

Any questions? I am ready to no lynch if no one sees a flaw in this.

[LlamaFluff]

I still think no lynching is the best option. I have a chance at blocking a kill, and if we get two lie detectors out town win odds go way up.

[LlamaFluff]

Supposing we do this, what do you think reborn should call his invention in order to maximize its chance of being a lie detector?

Whatever he called the last one, two lie detectors would really, REALLY help the town out.

[LlamaFluff]

Tonight I will randomly roleblock one of the four uncleared players, earning me a vote. So if there is no kill it was a result of that, since nothing else can cause one. At daybreak (assuming I am alive and someone died) Kloud should declare if he was blocked or not, and if he wasnt who he tracked. This should create ~50% chance of exposing all possible scum pairings.

Now - I feel that reborn should aslo throw a lie detector invention into the group of four players. With a RB, track(?), lie detector x2 all going off at once we might be able to force at least one player into the "has to be scum" catagory.

That should leave us at 5 players with at least 1 confirmed town, luck will put us at 6 with a confirmed scum.

[LlamaFluff]

Stop outguessing the mod guys. It is either lylo today or tomorrow, I want lylo where we have one extra invention to work with.

[LlamaFluff]

Peters roleblock is slightly different... I dont think it can be described without a mod kill but you will have to trust me on it.

[LlamaFluff]

Scum will not sumbit no kill, it would just allow you to put out another invention for us to use. If they no lynch I will reveal my RB target but still not run them up as we just got a free invention. It also allows for more Kloud slips as we have more nights.

I just need a little faith in my ability to determine if I RBed scum or not.

[LlamaFluff]

*ping* sudden idea.

I need to run it by the mod as it might get me killed though

[LlamaFluff]

I'm pretty confident the invention functions are randomly determined from a list by Farside.

No lynch today gives us

1) RB chance
2) Free invention

You're throwing out some horrible WIFOM there LF.

I know. Right now my brain is going all over the place thinking about possible ideas that might work for us. It all has a purpose though, most of it I cant talk about untill postgame.

[LlamaFluff]

Is anyone against - Using the Lie Detector that Kloud has on a coinflip chance about a nuance of my role. I know that given the T/F its a 50% chance of him guessing right as scum, but it ALSO is a 50% chance of confirming him as scum.

That makes our choices

1) No lynch, No LD useage, Hope for a second LD
2) No lynch, LD usage, 50% chance scum caught, 50% chance nothing learned

[LlamaFluff]

Eehhhh..... wait. I was stuck in the "Kloud has to lie if he is scum" mindset but a lie detector should work for town and scum the same. So I would say something about my role (or make something up) and he would have to lie if he was scum. I realize now thats stupid.

Sooooo. I still think we no lynch, I still think I RB a player at random. I still think scum will submit a kill since not submiting one gives a free invention, which we no lynch again from.

That is my basic thoughts right now

[LlamaFluff]

Ok fine what do we want then? From what I see our options are

1) Choose between Kloud and Dragon
2) No lynch

[LlamaFluff]

You are missing something. Either Kloud or Dragon HAS TO be scum.

Last night the four unconfirmeds

RF - Roleblocked
EK - Tracked
Kloud - Did Tracking
Dragon - Nothing

So, we know RF did not submit the kill. IF (if) Kloud is a tracker, EK could not of submitted the kill, also it means that Kloud is town aligned. This also means Dragon has to be scum.

Simply put Kloud-town = Dragon-scum

If Kloud is lying, he is scum. This doesnt do anything for us figuring out who submitted the kill, just "Not RF".

Given that AT LEAST one of Kloud/Dragon is scum, we should be looking there unless you can give me some stellar case on why we need to be lynching EK instead. This is partially a game of odds, and the ~66% chance of lynching scum in Kloud/Dragon > 50% chance lynching scum in the group of four.

[LlamaFluff]

I still say we no lynch because it help the town. It allows another invention to come out and *maybe* a RB.

If we do no lynch I want Kloud to track me, as that way he only has a 1/4 chance of guessing my move correctly. If there is a kill, we have a 5 player lylo which I prefer. I see no downside to the no lynch.

[LlamaFluff]

I would say to track me, as where I went isnt visable.

[LlamaFluff]

I agree with what RF just said. If Kloud is town, then he will find out the last mafia with the LD, and prove his role by tracking me.

[LlamaFluff]

I would even be more specific like

"I have a town aligned role in this game"

remember we are dealing with a bastard mod

[LlamaFluff]

I would say use the LD today on a "I have a pro-town role" statement from EK or RF

[LlamaFluff]

@Kloud, Dragon, RF, EK - Who are the scum?

[LlamaFluff]

well we will find out if Kloud is scum within a few days

[LlamaFluff]

random idea

Make Kloud a super saint, have Dragon hammer Kloud

[LlamaFluff]

if he doesnt we know dragon is scum, we lynch dragon. It involves self-sacrafice though as it leaves us at a three player lylo

[LlamaFluff]

is this a night action SS maker? if so I need to rethink

[LlamaFluff]

This doesnt work then, would of already needed to be out for it to of been a success.

[LlamaFluff]

@reborn - What was your invention kmd got called?

Also I am pretty sure that no lynch is the best option here with RF not using the SS maker tonight. First we need Kloud to use his LD on RF's statement about having a pro-town role though.

[LlamaFluff]

well soon enough we will find out all the possible scum combinations, and see if my biggest fears are going to be something that we have to deal with

[LlamaFluff]

Well what we are looking at for scum partners are

Kloud-RF
Kloud-EK
Kloud-Dragon
Dragon-EK
Dragon-RF

With what we learn we will either be able to eliminate Dragon-EK or Dragon-RF from the mix... and then we should no lynch. Basically this lie detector eliminates one of the pairings.

[LlamaFluff]

Now we no lynch, Kloud tracks me tonight and I will RB a random player. Right?

[LlamaFluff]

I was tracker scum in my last mini theme. This is confirmable.

Yep I know all of this. The fact that the scum pairing has to be Dragon-EK too if Kloud is town bugs me. There also still has to be someway to use the supersaint thing in our favor.

Remember guys though tomorrow if I am dead - If you are lynching Kloud, RF has to be the hammer incase she is scum. If RF will not hammer, lynch RF.

I still prefer the no lynch with a 25% chance of a free invention.

[LlamaFluff]

tomorrow is lylo with a SS if town gets lynched or hammered, unless there is no kill. Then it isnt lylo

Also @ reborn - apparently some items are day use, so I am willing to take the risk. If we get someone RBed we get another invention and scum. Just make RF hammer whoever you are lynching tomorrow.

[LlamaFluff]

Oh now this is an uncomfortable situation...

[LlamaFluff]

Well right now I feel like a hamster running in a wheel. EK-Dragon is a very legitimate scum pairing and I could completely see that happening in this game. There are a few things though from EK that are either freakishly amazing gambits or are coming from a real vanilla town.

The biggest is this

MOD,

I say end day right before you go away. That way night actions can get sent in while you're away and then game back open then.

At this point EK was at L-1, and she asked for deadline to be in 24 hours. Now I know this is WIFOM and I know that reborn is going to start yelling for it, BUT - This would mean that scum-EK claimed vanilla town after three wagons were abandoned and then asked for the day to be deadlined in such a time period where she was an inevitable lynch.

That said I still am confused and still lean to the "no lynch" option as I would like the outside chance at a free invention for RBing the right person.

[LlamaFluff]

Look, I cant do anything either way. I still would prefer having a shot at an invention but given that I cant stop it either way, what can I do?

[LlamaFluff]

So... who wants to claim that death?

[LlamaFluff]

Here is my theory - RF is scum. The only way this can not be true is if there is something along the lines of a scum executioner which is pretty powerful as it essentially is a free vote to scum. What I believe happened is RF tried to use the Super Saint machine on Kloud, and it backfired big time.

Interestingly enough my WIFOM game worked pretty well. When I found that there were two kills (death ray) possible, I used a specific power in RBing RF N3. So yes I actually had a vote all of D4 but just thought it was in everyones best intrest if this never came out. Scum apparently thought so as they did not submit a kill. If they did, they would be too concerned it cleared a player I think. Or they just wanted a claim and hope it wasnt them chosen as we string someone up.

So I think RF is scum who tried to make Kloud a Super Saint late D4 and the machine did what it was origionally intended to do. Thats just my theory though.

[LlamaFluff]

So, you RBed RF N3, when you periously said you used a different action (I have to look that up). So you did have a vote yesterday but didn't want scum to know, so that you could pretend you were usingyour RB last night. Then they would send a no-kill in hopes that you would think your RB prevented a kill and lynch the wrong person. Hmmm. I like it.

basically my actions have been

N1 - Random targeting GW - Jailkeep
N2 - Random targeting GW - Double Voter
N3 - Specific targeting RF - Roleblock

since then I have had a vote even though I tried to make it seem like I did not

[LlamaFluff]

random action on RF resulted in a roleblock, I figured I needed to have it be RB if RF was scum effected by it or it would be easy to see through what I was setting up

[LlamaFluff]

I wonder what LF thinks about the possibility of Meg being so disliked that it takes 1 less vote to lynch, rather than a scum executioner or that weird idea about the death ray backfiring.

Well it was in theory the death ray thing, and we all know that theories are trecherous bastards that can turn on you or fall apart at a moments notice.

It makes a little more sense then the super saint/death ray incedent given that doing that would of required an extra kill of town to manifest during the night which I dont really think is a possibility. But it was my first thought so I try and pay attention to inital and gut reads since they seem to usually put me on the right logical path.

I need to do some connection searching too but I doubt there will be too much since Kloud outright claimed "I am town Dragon/EK are the scum". This basically opened all types of doors for bussing. I still say EK is town, and that Dragon/RF should be the ones we consider lynching if we want to brute force it. I think that we should just try for the one day win though.

[LlamaFluff]

That actually might work

[LlamaFluff]

I think Dragon is scum by interactions of other players in a few concise points

1) RF tried to shift a wagon to kloud late D1
2) EK seemed fine with a lynch of herself late D1

These actions dont make a whole lot of sense from scum to scum partner and as scum more accepting a lynch then anything else.

Whatever we do today though

RF has to hammer

[LlamaFluff]

Im confident enough about reborn being town to go through with the plan

[LlamaFluff]

I still am having a duel of ideas in my mind trying to make sure nothing ends badly. This should be a win with two near confirmeds and I dont want to mess that up.

I think that EK should claim what the invention is though as I dont see any reason to keep it quiet.

[LlamaFluff]

Test a failsafe first given how people have been dying

Vote Dragon
unvote Dragon

Given that if reborn is the SK he hasnt submitted a kill yet (untill last night), and I still dont think we have inventor scum. Dont want to rush into anything still though.

[LlamaFluff]

I am going to wait a little bit before a hammer just to confirm what I am thinking with a read. Reborn hammering the most town out of the three unconfirmeds really bugged me though yesterday.

[LlamaFluff]

WOW. Thank GOD for the double vote. I was about sure LF was going to go for me then...

I was about 99% sure that I was going for Dragon, just that hammer of EK really confused me since I had her almost as confirmed town.

[LlamaFluff]

I still am not sure if I handled my role right, including who I should of been targeting. The random JOAT + no starting vote + specific action leading to vanilla I really had no idea how to handle. I was debating for a while if I should claim my voteless part or not, and eventually decided to just so there wouldnt be a discussion swing if I was on a lynching wagon.

[LlamaFluff]

First Llama: I was shocked when he used his OPG ability to RB resta. I thought if I'm a one time vig (which you are in a sense if you don't know better) I'm going to shoot someone I am almost certain is scum. If in doubt try one more number. I think the voteless thing was being temp didn't hurt the town in the least and xtoxm going after day 1 was just weird

I was too afraid to use the vig kill (I was debating between vig Kloud, RB Kloud, vig RF for a long time here), because I thought Death Ray killed. That would mean up to three kills, which would mean a scum win if they were all on town. I just decided to get my vote and RB a suspect.

Now the gambit that Llama did with saying he was going to kill that night after he used his OPG ability I thought my god he is nuts. He is going to look for sure like scum. Then STD sends me a PM telling me he isn't going to kill because he is sure he will be blocked. That sealed the deal for the scum to loss in my opinion. I would have shot someone no matter what. Llama was playing with fire doing that and I thought instead of EK's comment I thought someone was going to lynch him for lying in the first place. Surprised me.

I thought that I was going to get NKed for it actually, which was my primary goal. I figured if I got NKed, reborn got another invention out and that was a good thing for town. If I didnt get NKed, no kill occured. There also was the fact that I had proven my role since no one could of saved GW but me N1, so I was taking a liberty in pretending I had my OPG still to use

This was an amazing game to play in though, I had a lot of fun with it.

[LlamaFluff]

A couple questions actually

1) Why did scum really target GW N1 over three claimed roles, two confirmable?
2) Why did xtoxm push for my lynch so much D1 when I thought it was obvious I had some type of role that was counterbalancing the no vote?
3) Why did you not try to kill me N5 Dragon? Any "no kill" could of been argued scum didnt submit a kill.
4) Why did you kill N6? I would of tried to no kill and play SK-Stewie angle, which was something I was considering, an inventor-SK who cant NK.

Oh yeah, I liked my "result" PMs, I even kept sending in actions after I was vanilla with no response

I have no action, I drink anyways.

[LlamaFluff]

4) I didn't think of that.

I was actually thinking that there was a decent chance that reborn was a SK-inventor that could not submit a kill, but used their inventions to try and have the town kill eachother. If you wouldnt of killed I would of completely freaked out as to what the right move was.