Mini 653 - Family Guy Mafia - Game over

[kloud1516]

confirmz

[kloud1516]

/confirm

Boy am I glad I pre-inned for this, otherwise I probably wouldn't have got a spot.

QFT

[kloud1516]

vote: LlamaFluff

Llamas spit, and things that spit are automatically threats to Quahog!

[kloud1516]

Be aware that the numbers may be misleading when it comes to votes.

...Could this possibly mean that just because a certain player's vote doesn't show up on the official vote count doesn't mean the vote is ACTUALLY void when it comes lynching time?

We've already had one of the players tell us of a restriction, that involves us not seeing their vote. This may have something to do with it. And since that person said the restriction caused their vote not to count, it may work both ways. Some won't show and will count, some won't show and won't count, some will show and won't count... That's what I'm seeing, anyway.

This makes sense to me, but also makes me feel like we should be a little more cautious with our votes. If there are people with votes that are not seen, the town might accidentally lynch someone without realizing it until it is too late. Just a thought.

[kloud1516]

Not a character claim. I suppose the first quote didn't really make sense (it was something along the lines of "this is my house"). #2 being Cleveland was coincidence. I just felt that that needed to be said.

Did you just claim Cleveland...?

Well. I don't think an early breadcrumb is implicative of scum. If anything, i'd say quite the opposite.

And why exactly would hinting at your character be implicative of town? As of now, seeing as how we really don't have much information, I am under the assumption that character role is not necessarily indicative of alignment. Until this assumption is diputed, I have viewed this possible hinting at characters a null tell.

What makes others believe that character claiming would indicate a particular alignment? Have I missed something important?

Anyways if anyone is making early claims it's you. What's the point of telling us that your vote doesn't count? Are you trying to pass this off as some kind of pro-town role handicap? Why would anyone other than scum do that?

Yes, this is a very good point.

If you are town, you have just told the scum that you are a voteless townie, and that they don't want to touch you at night. The optimal strategy of a voteless townie is to keep trying and try to attract the NK.

So, if you are town, you have been careless.

So with that i'll

unvote vote LF

Why did you claim?

QFT. Claiming might have not been the best move, and I would like to know why you did so.

I find this to be suspicious, but at the same time I can see why claiming a post restriction would also help the town avoid confusion. As already pointed out, the vote count can/will be deceiving due to the fact that post restrictions are present. By LF claiming early that he had one, we have been made aware of vote restrictions and can analyze the game accordingly. As I said earlier, this also makes me feel that caution should be taken when voting, as we could accidentally lynch because of these possibly hidden votes.

[kloud1516]

So voteless roles get us closer to LYLO.

So does a mislynch.

It is not a good lynch unless you really think that llama is scum.

QFT

So even if you are telling the truth, you are still useful to get rid off, anf lyncing will be the only way, as you have such an anti-town role. And, we might get scum.

This is a very anti-town mindset

unvote
vote xtoxm

QFT. I am not liking xtoxm's reasoning either, and I feel that LF justified himself logically with his post 53. As Kmd said, mislynches will be just as detrimental to town as voteless roles, and so will reasoning like that which you have expressed above.

unvote. vote: xtoxm

[kloud1516]

What does QFT mean?

Q

uote

F

or

T

ruthery

[kloud1516]

3. Kloud, what was it about post 45 that you were quoting for truth?

I am going to repost the section below for the sake of clarity.

Anyways if anyone is making early claims it's you. What's the point of telling us that your vote doesn't count? Are you trying to pass this off as some kind of pro-town role handicap? Why would anyone other than scum do that?

Yes, this is a very good point.

If you are town, you have just told the scum that you are a voteless townie, and that they don't want to touch you at night. The optimal strategy of a voteless townie is to keep trying and try to attract the NK.

So, if you are town, you have been careless.

So with that i'll

unvote vote LF

Why did you claim?

QFT. Claiming might have not been the best move, and I would like to know why you did so.

I was in agreement with xtoxm when he claimed that goborage's quoted portion above was a good point. I was also agreeing with the bolded section above, focusing more on xtoxm's basis that if LF was town, claiming at that point may have been a careless move. At this point in the game, I was still trying to make observations on both xtoxm and LF, which is why I then followed up my initial QFT with reasoning that explained why I felt that, even though the claim may have not been the best move, it could indeed be helpful to the town (reasons given in post 47.)

[kloud1516]

If he had written a reasoning with his vote, and actual reasoning, then no, he would not have seemed suspicious, because at least it would have looked like he was doing more than jumping on a bandwagon.

Alright so the move against dalt was based on how the wagon was joined. Not based on what vote number he was or the wagonee

LF -- isn't that what he just said his supicions for dalt were all about, the way he jumped on the wagon (the move) without any explanation whatsoever? From what I have read, GW never even addressed the vote count. I could have missed it, and if I did feel free to point it out. I don't find anything about GW's reasoning for suspecting dalt to be suspicious at the moment, as his point was valid imo.

Why am I not voting him? Because that reason alone is not enough for me to warrant a vote. I prefer to use my votes like a doctor uses a scalpel, not swing them around like a sword. If I were going to vote him, it'd be to create pressure, but I'm not going to do that. One reason is that this can be done with words, as I was trying to do with the initial post involving the QFT statement. Another is because he still has not shown up after A) The first vote was placed upon him and B) My question to him was asked.

Fair enough, I usually vote quite a bit during the first day untill I start getting a clear idea of what im actually doing, and react badly to people who dont like voting. At what point would you feel dalt should be voted though? Dalt does need to talk though.

Yes, the fact that dalt has not responded to either the vote or your questioning does seem off, but it isn't unnatural for someone to just have not been able to log on. Right now, I am assuming that dalt hasn't had an opportunity to respond, but when he does return if he does not address the question/vote I will take this as him avoiding to comment.

unvote

[kloud1516]

I don't think gobo is scum, he looks very good to me.

And my suggestion did (does) make copius sense, as his presence, if town, move the day we reach lylo forward by one. So lynching him is no loss AT ALL. Either that, or he is scum. But for some reason you guys don't like it.

1) What makes you think that gobo is not scum? I know I need to do another reread, as I am falling behind yet again (sorry about that), but from what I have seen of gobo I haven't found anything that screams town.

I am interested in hearing his response to RF's posts, as I hadn't taken great notice of the initial claim and comments provided by goborage, but the information brought to the surface with post 111 and 117 does make the situation stand out more than it did before.

2) Lynching LF could indeed be a loss to us imo, for what I have observed of him thus far indicates that he could be a major proponent in analyzing the posts of others and identifying suspicious actions. While he doesn't have a vote, he still is able to observe, and that can be just as valuable as a vote later on.

Lynching him Day 1 simply on the grounds of him having a posting restriction still doesn't make sense to me, for there is still time for us to try to get more information out of today and lynching him will not necessarily provide us with anything that will assist in scum hunting tomorrow. If he flips town that would be one free NK as several players have already pointed out, and Day 2 could very well be just like Day 1 depending on the outcome.

EBWOP. As far as him being Mafia, yeah, you're right, it'd be harder to catch him because there'd be no suspicion placed on him simply for not being NK'ed. But we can still look for scumtells just like anybody else. No one's exempt. But that's obvious, no breakthrough logic here...

QFT. Scumhunting makes much more sense to me than lynching someone over post speculation Day 1. As RF stated above, no one is exempt from analysis and investigation, and even those who have restrictions can exhibit scum tells.

[kloud1516]

Staying away from speculation such as that is generally a good thing because

A) Its just speculation. Whats the point? There is no evidence backing up anything. Lets all follow Occam's Razor and not make any more assumptions than we have to.

B) Because its only speculation. At best it does nothing to help town because there's nothing really in it that town can use to find scum. At worst it helps scum cause randomness in town, reduces scum hunting and also brings us closer to a deadline and a mis lynch.

I am in agreement with thinktank here; it is going to be in the town's best interest to avoid getting wrapped up in speculation. As thinktank has already stated, we have no factual evidence of any kind that could serve as an indication of alignment based on a player's character role. Because of this, tossing out possible theories will only assist in keeping the town from scum hunting, as trying to prove/disprove possible theories will simply serve as distraction, which can then open the doors wide open to WIFOM down the road.

Neither added distraction or possible manifestation of WIFOM are going to help the town hit scum, but will greatly assist scum blend in and create paranoia among the town.

I know that this post probably seems redundant considering that it precedes thinktank's explanation, but I thought I would add on to the reasoning.

[kloud1516]

Okay, trying to catch up again. School just started and this week has been more than a little hectic (don't believe I just spelled that correctly), and I promise I will be back in full force by Friday night. From now on, week days might bode diminished activity on my part, but I promise to be here in order to contribute to discussion.

With that being said, first things first:

LF - I'd prefer not to lynch LF because I being scum without a vote, seems like bastard moddery to me. Pretty much confirmed town for me.

As pointed out, I do not agree with this at all.

QFT. Crub, that quoted selection just invites WIFOM into the discussion at hand, which is not a good thing. You may prefer not to lynch LF today, and I understand that as I do not plan to as well (unless something happens in the near future), but ruling him out as possible scum because of the restriction is a no no imo. PR or not, he is just as likely a candidate for being scum as the rest of us, and I think it is interesting that, on Day 1 with the minimal information we have, that you are willing to openly state that LF has been ruled out as town to you.

General note: ghostwriter and kloud, your avatars are too

similar

amazingly awesome.

Fixed

Thoughts:

As far as I could tell, goborage was merely quoting a favorite line from family guy... it was a joke and not a character claim.

At least that is how I took it.

Thinktank and restfermata make similar jokes/character references, but llamafluff does not have a problem with their comments.

1) I personally agree with you. I am not certain what kind of information everyone plans to acquire through gobo possibly admitting it was a claim. Sure, if this is so, it would be hypocritical, but hypocrisy is not necessarily a scum tell.

@ all who are concerned about the gobo claim:

If gobo does admit that he claimed Cleveland, what do you plan on doing from there? There is no indication as to whether or not Cleveland is scum, and I don't feel the claim alone is reason for me personally to suspect gobo. This being said, I do find his drop in activity level to be somewhat suspicious.

2) I hadn't noticed this before, so I will go back and look over the thread. Do you know the exact posts?

Anyways as a townie it is my duty to scrutinize your every move LF.

This post sort of bothers me. The indirect reference to being a townie. Sort of forced.

QFT.

Unvote, Vote Dalt

Seemed like a very sneaky attempt at trying to get more people on Xtoxm's bandwagon.

IG: What was sneaky about it? What was sneakier or worse about dalt's vote than the others?

I can't speak for Godot, but I too found the vote to be a little suspicious. "Sneaky" is not the best word to use imo, but the fact that he dropped a vote on xtoxm without reasoning for doing so is what stands out to me.

I don't think gobo is scum, he looks very good to me.

And my suggestion did (does) make copius sense, as his presence, if town, move the day we reach lylo forward by one. So lynching him is no loss AT ALL. Either that, or he is scum. But for some reason you guys don't like it.

xtoxm: Why do you think gobo is town?

I asked the same question earlier.

More to come a tad later.

[kloud1516]

Meh, I can't seem to stay caught up in this game. Sorry everyone!

First of all: Welcome reborn!

Second of all: To me, I feel as though we have all addressed the gobo claimed/did not claim case ad nauseum. I felt before gobo was replaced that the fact that he had quoted Cleveland twice was mere coincidence, and, correct me if I am wrong, now that he has been replaced there is nothing to prove otherwise. We can debate this as much as we want, but gobo isn't here to answer, and so dwelling on this will continue to get us nowhere.

Thirdly:

Yet of all the scummiest of the scummy here, it still seems that xtoxm takes the cake. Xtoxm's bandwagoning of Llama looks borderline FRANTIC! And his defense of goborage as town was admitedly based solely on a post goborage made saying that xtoxm brought up some pretty good points. And that somehow made goborage town? Just because he agreed with him? I especially didn't like the post when he said that lynching Llama based solely upon his voteless role would be beneficial to the town, and "...we might catch scum!" Might? Aren't we supposed to be maximizing our chances of catching scum by...I don't know...LOOKING for scum? Maybe Llama looked scummy to Xtoxm, but he didn't seem to care one way or another, nor did he contribute any evidence. It seemed to me he was actively protesting any scumhunting activities. How can that be good? He was the second scummiest on my list next to goborage, and now that goborage's replacement has cleared some things up for me, I'm afraid that the vote falls upon xtoxm.

I will agree with you when it comes to the fact that xtoxm's persistance in a LF lynch is very suspicious. His continuous posts in which the only reason he gives for lynching LF is his PR still is suspicious to me, for as stated in the post above, pushing for a lynch without any viable reason other than speculation based off this PR detracts from true scum hunting.

At the same time, however, I must disagree with you, for I don't believe that xtoxm's recent posts portray him as actively protesting any scum hunting. His vote is not on LF, it is on dalt/Elvis, and I believe his reasoning does justify the vote. Dalt made a ping on my scumdar as well with his vote, for he provided no reasoning for doing so, and then when others took notice of it and he was asked about it his activity level plummeted until he was replaced. I do not get the same suspicious reads from Elvis, but the fact that he replaced dalt still looms in the back of my mind.

I'd also like to state my suspicions on dalt

FoS dalt

. However, things obviously might change once he starts chiming in again.

It might be hard for dalt to chime in any time soon. . .seeing as how he was replaced and all.

I tend to vote a lot in the early game, seriously go meta. Its a fairly logical path too but that doesnt seem something you are concerned about pointing out here.

This basically amounts to "I always act scummy in early game, seriously, go meta."

The only reason (aside from just doing something that is incorrect, I should point out for fairness' sale) to do something scummy consistently is so that you can point out the meta when you are in fact scum or when people call you out on it. Therefore it's consistently bad for everyone except yourself (and your mafia members if you're mafia). Wishy-washiness is a scum-tell. You can't get around it by saying that you always do it. That doesn't make it ok, or right.

QFT.

Everything you've done so far has led to distraction of the town, for many pages. The goborage thing wasted the town's time for so long and was made up out of thin air.

As I have stated above, I found xtoxm to be suspicious because of the intense pushing for an LF lynch solely based off the fact that LF has a PR. I am not following the GW deal that you sited in your earlier post, and I too found gobo's avoidance of responding to the questions/comments of others to be suspicious as well. Because of this, while I agree that LF has contributed to distracting the town, I cannot agree that everything that he has done so far has been a distraction to scum hunting.

Fourthly:

Oh, and one more thing: Kloud, I do believe that Elvis is hating on how we both just so happen to like badass silver-haired Square characters.

No doubt about it.

[kloud1516]

As for LF, I was the first to vote for him- how is that hopping on a bandwagon?

In this case, the bandwagon was a bandwagon of ideas, started by me. Granted, yours may have been the first actual vote, it wouldn't have been had I decided on using a vote, as opposed to the FoS that I placed. What's more, to get on it, you did a complete about face. You seemed to have known the whole time that gobo had been talking about the quote, yet you had backed what LF was saying, up until the point that I fought against it. Then you jumped ship, and landed on my bandwagon of targeting LF. Yes, I do know that xtoxm is/was also targeting LF, but my reason for doing it and his reason for it are completely different, and I've already made my disapproval of his reason known.

QFT. I find the erratic nature of BG's actions to stand out very prominently at the moment, especially when put in the spotlight along side all of the pieces of evidence that serve as possible and probable links to xtoxm and gobo/reborn. I feel that there are several different scenarios that could be in play at the moment, and so I will voice my theories that are, as I have just stated, simply theory. I admit that this will be walking threateningly close to the terminus of WIFOM, but I feel that trying to piece facts together as you all have done above might lead us to the right scenario and inevitably assist in hitting scum. Here are my thoughts:

a) BG is scum and therefore knows who is pro-town and who is not. Because of this information, she is trying to connect herself to someone/several people she felt others would believe to be pro-town early on in the game in hopes of making herself look pro-town.

b) BG is scum and xtoxm is scum. BG is now trying to appear as though she suspects xtoxm so that distancing can occur, but at the same time has been agreeing with him on certain arguments and trying to help stir the pot in order to maintain heightened levels of paranoia within the town.

c) BG is town and simply agrees with some points made by xtoxm, and then disagrees with other arguments brought up. If this is so, then it could be likely that my possible scenario A is in play, though vice versa with xtoxm as scum and trying to link himself with a pro-town player in hopes of looking more town.

At the moment, I must admit that I am still rather ignorant as to the possible connections between BG, xtoxm, and gobo/reborn, and this is the reason that gobo/reborn was not added into the situations. I will be doing a reread in just a moment, and will then give my opinions of the thoughts/observations posted by others on this topic. As I said before, the scenarios listed above are mere speculation, but from what I have seen of preceding posts, the evidence against BG is logical and substantial.

Because of this, I will

vote: BG

I find your actions that have been brought to the surface by others to indeed be a plausible link between you and the already suspicious (imo) xtoxm. Not only this, but I feel that when others brought up the subject, you reacted in a way that appeared frantic, which makes me feel that you have something to hide.

My example:

ok I dont think xtoxm is scum! how many times do I have to say it? I have seen many games where town people do stupid things- I think that's what he is doing. I don't like what he's done- I dont agree with it- but I don't think he's scum. As for LF, I was the first to vote for him- how is that hopping on a bandwagon? and as for dalt why is it wrong to vote for someone who is being bandwagoned when you agree that their behavior is scummy?

The patterned actions pointed out by others make sense, and in the light of this accumulated observations, this response only seems like an attempt to distance yourself from xtoxm. You say you don't agree with what he has done, but then what is this?

Here's my thoughts on the situation. Although I hate the idea of claiming day one, in this case I find it somewhat helpful- at least we know now that there are restrictions and to expect the unexpected so to speak. As for xtoxm's attacking LF, I don't find it scummy but I don't like it. I haven't played in any games with him(I don't think) so I don't really know his playstyle- maybe he can just be overly aggressive. I definately don't like the idea of lynching someone just because their vote doesn't count- if LF has a good idea of who is scum, he still has the capability of trying to influence other players to see someone's scumminess- sort of like the bandwagon on xtoxm now.

To me, you are defending xtoxm's reasoning, while then disagreeing with his vote/reasoning on LF. A few sentences later, it appears that you are voicing dissent in regards to the wagon against xtoxm. As I said earlier: erratic actions brought to us by BG.

If any players disagree with my logic and/or observations, please let me know, for I tried to be as thorough in my reread as possible, but there is still a possibility that I missed something. I will repeat the fact that the scenarios listed above are mostly speculation, and as such may be flawed. As I said earlier in this paragraph, if you do indeed believe that the possibilities are flawed, let me know.

[kloud1516]

First off:

I am utterly confused by the last several posts. I am going to need to go back and read this over again in hopes of making sense of this. Everything from post 266 onward has my head spinning in a conundrum for some reason, so I am going ask for some clarification here.

@xtoxm

Who would you be very happy killing today?

I think this is what is getting me confused, because I am not following which responses are addressed to who.

I am currently working on addressing certain points/voicing my opinions on current actions. The post shouldn't take long.

[kloud1516]

Given the recent BG/xtoxm lover claim, some of this content will be somewhat outdated, but I feel it necessary to address the post just so all points can be explained.

a) BG is scum and therefore knows who is pro-town and who is not. Because of this information, she is trying to connect herself to someone/several people she felt others would believe to be pro-town early on in the game in hopes of making herself look pro-town.

You say she is trying to make connections. What connections? I see no connections from BG to me. Saying you find someone to look town is not a scumtell.

First off, I said that these scenarios were only theory, and did not have a whole lot of evidence behind them besides speculation. Given the fact that the lovers claim has manifested, the connection makes more sense to a certain degree, but I will still go ahead and point out the particular posts I was referring to.

Here's my thoughts on the situation. Although I hate the idea of claiming day one, in this case I find it somewhat helpful- at least we know now that there are restrictions and to expect the unexpected so to speak. As for xtoxm's attacking LF, I don't find it scummy but I don't like it. I haven't played in any games with him(I don't think) so I don't really know his playstyle- maybe he can just be overly aggressive. I definately don't like the idea of lynching someone just because their vote doesn't count- if LF has a good idea of who is scum, he still has the capability of trying to influence other players to see someone's scumminess- sort of like the bandwagon on xtoxm now.

Here is an example of what I was saying in my previous post. As I have already explained, I found this post to stand out when doing a reread after GW and Kmd revealed their observations. I felt that this post served as a defense of your (xtoxm's) reasoning against LF, as BG claims she does not find it scummy. She then claims she hasn't played any games with you, and tries to justify your actions for you by suggesting that you play style is possibly just overly aggressive. I am not insinuating that an aggressive play style is indicative of an anti-town alignment, but I don't think BG trying to explain your actions was needed.

Because of the lack in necessity, I felt that this could be hypothetical BG-scum trying to defend someone that she would know to be pro-town and, in doing so, possibly look more pro-town herself. I felt that this possibility was reasonable, as if you were lynched and flipped town, this would possibly make her look more pro-town. As I said earlier, the lover claim makes more sense now, and would justify BG defending you, so theoretical scenario a has been rendered invalid in certain aspects. There is still a possibility that one of you is town and the other is scum, but the attempting to make a connection portion has been shot down for the time being imo.

c) BG is town and simply agrees with some points made by xtoxm, and then disagrees with other arguments brought up. If this is so, then it could be likely that my possible scenario A is in play, though vice versa with xtoxm as scum and trying to link himself with a pro-town player in hopes of looking more town.

Ignore the alignment statements in this quote, and I don't see how anyone case this is not the case be she town/scum, me town/scum.

I don't understand what you are saying here.

At the moment, I must admit that I am still rather ignorant as to the possible connections between BG, xtoxm, and gobo/reborn, and this is the reason that gobo/reborn was not added into the situations. I will be doing a reread in just a moment, and will then give my opinions of the thoughts/observations posted by others on this topic. As I said before, the scenarios listed above are mere speculation, but from what I have seen of preceding posts, the evidence against BG is logical and substantial.

Because of this, I will vote: BG

What? You say you don't see any connections, but then vote for BG over the crap logic case? Please, if you are town, think about where you place your vote...

No; that is not what I said. I claimed that I, at the moment, did not see a connect between you, BG, and gobo/reborn. I saw connections between you and BG, but I hadn't/still haven't seen anything that could throw gobo/reborn into the mix just yet.

If any players disagree with my logic and/or observations, please let me know, for I tried to be as thorough in my reread as possible, but there is still a possibility that I missed something. I will repeat the fact that the scenarios listed above are mostly speculation, and as such may be flawed. As I said earlier in this paragraph, if you do indeed believe that the possibilities are flawed, let me know.

Hi. But I guess you didn't really want me to respond to this anyway.

If I didn't want someone to respond to it, then I wouldn't have posted it.

My shall stay where it is for now, for even though the lover claim makes sense in regards to the connection, this point:

I find your actions that have been brought to the surface by others to indeed be a plausible link between you and the already suspicious (imo) xtoxm. Not only this, but I feel that when others brought up the subject, you reacted in a way that appeared frantic, which makes me feel that you have something to hide.

My example:

ok I dont think xtoxm is scum! how many times do I have to say it? I have seen many games where town people do stupid things- I think that's what he is doing. I don't like what he's done- I dont agree with it- but I don't think he's scum. As for LF, I was the first to vote for him- how is that hopping on a bandwagon? and as for dalt why is it wrong to vote for someone who is being bandwagoned when you agree that their behavior is scummy?

makes me still feel that my argument above holds some weight. The fact that BG decided to claim lover with you when only three votes (I think it was three votes) were on her only assists in supporting my reasoning for finding her suspicious on the premiss of her actions being erratic/frantic at times. This factor still makes me feel that BG is hiding something, other than the now-revealed lover situation she had been concealing. It is possible for you to both be town, but it is also possible for one of you to be scum and the other town, as well as both scum, so I am at a loss right now. I feel that my earlier suspicions of you have waned to a certain degree, but I feel your lover partner to still be suspicious.

[kloud1516]

Responding to prod. Sorry everyone, I have been very busy as of late, and I am trying to make sure that I post in every game. Unfortunately, I seemed to have missed this one. I will do a quick reread of the last few pages and get something up.

[kloud1516]

No, he wasn't advising other scum, he was just speculating about information that might help the scum. He was just being very...un-careful, something that town can't afford to be. I pointed them out in my case against IG in post 292. He too much talking about power roles and who the mafia probably would or wouldn't NK.

I agree that there was too much power role speculation.
Did IG ever respond about that?

Not really, no. What do you want me to do, apologize?

Or maybe explain

why

you would speculate on power roles.

QFT. IG - several people have asked you to explain your role speculations, which you could have easily done so in this post, but either elected not so or were planning on doing so at a later time without specification. Either way, I am started to feel as though you are purposefully stonewalling those who press you for information, and I don't like it.

unvote; FoS: Godot

based on the avoidance perception that I just noted. I will be delving into IG's actions a little more closely very soon, and will try to post more of a substantial analysis. For now, EGMEOY, BG, but I am willing to look elsewhere for the time being.

[kloud1516]

c) BG

is town and

simply agrees with some points made by xtoxm, and then disagrees with other arguments brought up.

Is the strikethrough an indication that you feel BG is not town? I don't understand.

My vote shall stay where it is for now, for even though the lover claim makes sense in regards to the connection, this point:

I suggest you change that before I start finding it scummy.

I suggest you read the post right before yours where I unvoted BG.

makes me still feel that my argument above holds some weight. The fact that BG decided to claim lover with you when only three votes (I think it was three votes) were on her only assists in supporting my reasoning for finding her suspicious on the premiss of her actions being erratic/frantic at times. This factor still makes me feel that BG is hiding something, other than the now-revealed lover situation she had been concealing. It is possible for you to both be town, but it is also possible for one of you to be scum and the other town, as well as both scum, so I am at a loss right now. I feel that my earlier suspicions of you have waned to a certain degree, but I feel your lover partner to still be suspicious.

From the way she has acted, I think she is town. If she is scum, I don't think it will matter much, because I can't see us both making it to the end regardless....

I was annoyed when she claimed so early, escpecially when it was just after my posting a defense rather than after an attack or something, but there's nothing I can do about that. But her reasoning is real - I was in said game when she was cop. She just claimed it out of nowhere day 1. I was scum, there were no doctors. Cop dead N1 nice and easy...

I will take it into account when analyzing her from now on as a possibility, but I still find her to be suspicious because of stated erratic behavior. Just because her meta shows that she has done this before as town does not mean that she couldn't do it as scum as well.

[kloud1516]

Is the strikethrough an indication that you feel BG is not town? I don't understand.

NO!!!

It's supposed to indicate that the scenario makes sense if you take out the alignment indication, it works for whatever her alignment is, and whatever mine is. That's what i'm saying.

Okay, that is what I assumed, but I wanted to clarify to avoid possible confusion later on. Will post more in just a little bit. Promise.

[kloud1516]

Hey everyone, I am still here, but I am swamped with RL problems right now (not that any of that matters to the thread). I am working on a reread of the last several pages right now, and will be getting something up a little later.

[kloud1516]

No, he should claim ASAP.

Correct. Regardless of how close it is to the deadline, he's at L-2 (so I've heard, haven't actually counted it myself) and that's the time to claim.

QFT. I actually think he is now at L-3, but I could be mistaken. Even so, now is the time to claim, for if he doesn't an IG deadline lynch will be almost inevitable.

Sorry for not contributing the game as much as I should be. I am extremely busy IRL, and am trying to keep up. I apologize for the inconvenience, and am trying to get everything tied up so I can start putting more into this game again.

[kloud1516]

I believe I have seen kloud browsing this forum multiple times today and not posting (and I don't think he's in another game in coney island).

Yeah, sorry everyone, as I have been repeatedly saying I am extremely busy IRL and have very limited access on weekdays. Unfortunately, that meant that I have been rushing to try to get to games and, in the process, have missed others. I am trying to get my schedule worked out so I can get back into all my games, and I think I am almost there.

And, EK, just for the record I am currently in two other games in Coney Island.

I am going to address what I feel I need to address now. I know this will be out of chronological order (in regards to EK's post/my response and the rest of the posts I am about to respond to.)

First off:

Reborn, why are you avoiding llama's question.

I think I believe EK's claim but I don't like the suggestion that all vanilla are chris. It opens up a fake claim for scum to just say "you can't counterclaim, there are more than one of this character."

I'm not avoiding it, I've been very clear that I don't know EK's alignment.

Thats avoiding it. I have been saying "I think EK is town". You have been saying "I cant see the future". There is a distinct difference there, while I am committing to a stance, you keep avoiding commenting on what you percieve EKs alignment to be. "I hope he is scum", "I dont know", "Im not scum, how should I know" are not answers that work for this question.

I am at the point where the only feaseable options I see are no lynch or a lurker lynch. I think no lynch is the best option though given that just about all of the popular suspects have been forced to claim.

I think EK is town, I think reborn is town. IG is probally town with a few nagging suspicions after his last post. I think one of the lovers is scum, but no one seems willing to go for that today. That leaves a lot of people I have been leaning pro-town or at worse 45/55 scum on, of which I really dont think any make for a great lynching candidate.

I don't like Xtoxm's recent behaviour. I'm convinced that one of the lovers is scum, as both of them have been extremely scummy.

A lurker lynch is also fine with me, as I think this is a game that really requires participation. The people who have contributed less have really gotten away with murder. But who is that? BG is being replaced, STD is VLA, so I don't advocate either of these as a lurker lynch (although if we lynch the lovers obviously we'll have to discuss it carefully first). Noone really stands out as lurking.

Okay, in post 715 LF gives you an example or paraphrasing of what he means by you dodging the question of whether or not you feel EK is scum or not. The immediately succeeding post, your post 716, does not even address what LF just commented on, which makes me begin to feel that you are/were indeed purposefully avoiding to comment on the topic for the time being.

There are certain things that we probably disagree over, which is why I'm not going to talk any further on the EK thing.

I see this as an attempt to simply bury the conversation, even after to have not responded the initial question.

I'm pretty convinced I have pushed it. I think EK is the right play because she is extremely scummy, giving us a good chance of lynching scum, and if she was telling the truth, then we only lose a vanilla townie. The chance of lynching scum outweighs the risk of losing a vanilla townie and this is why an EK lynch is preferable to a no lynch. The lynch of an unconfirmed is always preferable to a no lynch. To you guys, I should be a better lynch than a no lynch, and I think you need to realise that.

Okay, so you answer the question. Why not just do this when first asked, for I feel that this would have helped to steer clear of frustration and confusion, both for you and to those that were asking you about your suspicions.

How did you go from asking people their reasons for voting me because you saw no case on me, to thinking I am extremely scummy?

I knew that several people thought you were scum, although they refused to tell me why. Considering the fact that more people think you are scum than there are likely to be scum in the game, a couple of them at least are genuine townies with genuine reasons on you. That's why I moved my vote to you.

I think EK is the right play because she is extremely scummy

Lastly, EK poses this question to you. I find it interesting that this is a dramatic difference in tone/thought, and the two ideas are only several posts (of yours) away from each other (if I am not mistaken). I also find it interesting that you have yet to comment on it.

I haven't really had strong scum vibes on you thus far. I cannot say exactly why this was so, so I should probably look back and see, but even with the content I quoted above I am leaning towards you being town for now.

EGMEOY

though.

I still have my suspicions of BG for the same reasons as earlier, so I would not be opposed to lynching her. This being said, my suspicions of xtoxm have waned considerably since the earlier pages of the thread, and I feel that he may helpful when scumhunting later on down the road. I am not really understanding the TT lynch proposition, so could someone explain it to me please?

[kloud1516]

Picking up prod. Rereading. Sorry guys.

[kloud1516]

Re: some of my meta comments -- I assume STD means when I said kloud wasn't posting in the game but browsing the forum. I stand by it because 1)It's scummy not to be active in the game near deadline 2) It made him post almost immediately upon being called out.

Well, sorry to disappoint you, but several of my other games are in deadline right now as well. Unfortunately, this resulted in several of my games being put off until I could find the time to appropriately address the content in a way that would be helpful--and this game was one of them. Just because you may have a more open schedule does not mean everyone else does.

Luckily, I have Monday off, which means I will have three days of fairly high levels of time where I can jump back into the game.

Another factor to me posting was the fact that I actually had time to. This, plus the fact that you assumed I was not playing in any more games on Coney Island did indeed contribute to me posting, as the statement was false.

Re: some of my meta comments -- I assume STD means when I said kloud wasn't posting in the game but browsing the forum. I stand by it because 1)It's scummy not to be active in the game near deadline 2) It made him post almost immediately upon being called out.

I'll give you that, but you tried to pin him as a lurker who haunted the Coney Island forum, looking at this thread but not posting, when he has two other threads in Coney Island.

Yes, he was lurker. No, he probably wasn't avoiding the game. Once someone decided to attack me for posting in a Mish Mash thread but not in the game, and it pissed me off, because it was irrelevant.

It's how you presented your argument that I find suspicious.

A voice of reason in such chaotic times.

This talk of math is silly. Have you ever flipped a coin and gotten heads 4 times in a row? You have to take these coin tosses separately. The 5th toss isn't any more likely to turn up tails than any of the others. It's a different toss.

And in this case it's even less certain than that. When you say someone is 59.374% likely to be scum, that's not even a clean, clear-cut number, no matter how precise you make it sound. It's just your opinion, and a percentage loosely based on that opinion. It is not fact, and it is not math just because you threw some numbers in it. You can shout out probabilities left and right to illustrate your point, but you can't throw them into some sort of algorithm.

QFT.

@Reborn--I like the idea of choosing who to send inventions to, for if I am reading this correctly, it

would

help to give scum a more difficult task of deciding who to roleblock.

WINE. IN. FRONT. OF. ME.

I believe you are the scum in a one scum, one town lover partnership.

unvote vote xtoxm

I might think one up later, if someone I remotely care about telling asks.

So yeah, you're voting for me because I'm voting for you. I was going to hold off on you two until tomorrow, but seriously. I think we have the best chance of catching scum by lynching you.

xtoxm, I am not liking this post. At all. This makes it seem as though you are just simply voting for reborn of a whim, and that you feel as though you don't need to justify yourself until it is convenient/required. Wasn't it you who started the wagon on Dalt for the same thing that you just did?

vote: xtoxm

What is your case on reborn?

If you nameclaimed there wouldn't be a problem. I'm starting to think that people are right about the whole - mafia = unnamed FCC thing.

I think we should try to stay away from such speculation until we are provided with more information, as it will only distract the town and detract from actually scum hunting. Theory speculation is fine, but I think until we have more to go on we should keep it to a minimum.

[kloud1516]

I would have thought looking at Reborn's recent posts is enough.

I am not going to make inferences on why I think that you feel reborn is scum. Other than the speculation of FCC being mafia, I really haven't seen much in reborn's recent posts that make sound on my scumdar.

This is why I am asking you to explain your case, as it is possible that I have missed something that you have picked up on.

[kloud1516]

If you hadn't picked up, the post you quoted was sarcasm.

[kloud1516]

I don't see any problem in speculation, so long as we don't get too set in our theories and let scum slip through our fingers.

This is exactly what I was saying. Speculation of this sort often tends to get people set in theory, and sort of has a ripple effect over other players. Some will begin to disagree with the theory in question, and then discussion inevitably is diverted off of scum hunting and onto a theory that can neither be accepted or disproved with the information we currently have.

[kloud1516]

I know what sarcasm is, but I was confused as to what you were referring to when you said that if I hadn't picked up, the post I quoted was sarcasm.

(I know what you are talking about now. heh . I feel stupid) Sarcasm or not, I would still like to hear your reasoning for suspecting reborn.

[kloud1516]

EBWOP. I guess I should put the real name.

Vote: Kloud4390

I want to know what you think about everything and everyone right now.

1) You still didn't get the real name.

2)

Thoughts of recent developments:

>As of right now, I am really having a hard time with reborn's claim, as his latest posts have not exactly reflected him having solid knowledge of what the inventor role does. I think that if he was indeed given the inventor role, he would have a more solid knowledge about his abilities (at least to a certain degree, as I believe the traditional inventor doesn't know what his/her inventions will do). I still feel that his earlier proposal of giving the assigned person the invention could be helpful tomorrow in determining whether or not he is lying about his claim.

>The LF JOAT claim seems more solid than reborn's, but I skimmed over the claims in order to get caught up quicker, so my feelings on this may change. I will do a reread and get back to this in a bit.

>I am not sure what I think right now about EK's Chris/vanilla claim. I really haven't found him particularly scummy, but as I have already said my reread was a condensed skim edition, so I may have missed something. Right now, I am more inclined to believe EK is town.

>I feel that you, RF, have provided both logic and reason to the game, and, while I haven't agreed with everything, I haven't gotten scum vibes from you. I don't particularly feel that a "pressure" vote was needed. If you wanted me to respond to something, all you had to do was ask. This goes likewise for STD, and to a certain point KMD.

>I haven't been able to get any read off of TT thus far, as he hasn't posted all that much. I haven't really gotten many pro-town vibes from him, but at the same time I haven't seen anything besides his low activity level that I feel radiates scum--which isn't much itself.

>My earlier suspicions of BG I think still stand, as I don't feel that Rockatansky has done much to sway my opinions. I think I believe BG was the more suspicious member of the lover pair, based on reasons I provided in earlier posts. This being said, I have not liked some of xtoxm's recent posts either. I voted him in hopes of getting him to provide a case against reborn, and this is what I think of the case:

1) Reborn wanting you to nameclaim -- I really do not see how this would be indicative of reborn's alignment, as I took it initially as him being more curious than anything. This may not have been the case, but it was the impression I got.

2) Reborn threatening to vote if you don't name claim -- I do agree that his threat to vote you for not nameclaiming is odd, but I do not really think this translates as scummy behavior (at least imo). Yes, pressuring you seems a little unnecessary, as I do not think the claim really wouldn't contribute all that much to scumhunting, but I do not think it would derail/harm efforts either.

4) Reborn using WIFOM to warrant a vote against you -- I don't see where he used WIFOM against you, so if you could point this out it would be appreciated. I do see where you used WIFOM as a rebuttal (post 866), so I find this point null, as you are accusing reborn of being scummy for something you have done as well.

5) Reborn accusing you of OMGUS -- Not sure really what to think about this to be honest.

All in all, I find reborn's insistence for you to name claim to be iffy, as I do not feel that you claiming would achieve a great deal with the limited information we have, save contributing to more speculation.

My suspicions of you early Day 1 still linger in the back of my mind, but I feel that the initial strength behind my opinions have lessened over the course of the game. Right now, I believe your recent posts have not really helped my perception of you, and due to my suspicions of BG/rock, this inevitably serves as a detriment to you, for if you are lynched, BG is lynched and if BG is lynched (which I would prefer) you will still die as well. I think my vote will be staying on you unless someone else exhibits more scummy behavior before deadline.

>IG and GW: I haven't really gotten huge reads on either. GW has not really posted all that much, and I found IG's earlier role speculations to stand out, but his recent BG claim have me not wanting to lynch a possible power role Day 1.

Suspicions List (second group is who I wouldn't want to lynch today):

>BG/Rock
>xtoxm
>GW
>KMD
>Reborn

~~~~~~

>EK
>TT
>IG
>RG
>STD
>LF
>Me

[kloud1516]

I still think you could be helpful, but the sarcasm and recent posting has given me some doubts. As I said, (or at least what I was trying to say) my vote is staying on you primarily because my suspicions of BG have been the strongest to me so far. I either haven't gotten great reads off of others, or believe that they are town as of now, and would rather not lynch them because of this. You being second on the list is simply because that, even if BG isn't the lynch today, you being lynched would result in my number one suspect committing suicide. I feel that the consequences of mislynching two townies would be horrible, but the possibility of hitting scum, even though we would lose your help later on, would be beneficial for the town. This is basically me taking a utilitarian stance on the Day 1 lynch.

[kloud1516]

Yes, it would be best, but I like I just said, I am either getting neutral reads or town reads on almost everyone else right now. I know I need to do a reread, and I am working on it, as I might catch something that I didn't notice before.

[kloud1516]

Alright, kloud, please explain something to me:

Exhibit A:

>I haven't been able to get any read off of TT thus far, as he hasn't posted all that much. I haven't really gotten many pro-town vibes from him, but at the same time I haven't seen anything besides his low activity level that I feel radiates scum--which isn't much itself.

Exhibit B:

>IG and GW: I haven't really gotten huge reads on either. GW has not really posted all that much

Now then, given those two exhibits, unless there is some extra thing you've left out of what you think of me, WHY is your list like this:

Suspicions List (second group is who I wouldn't want to lynch today):

>BG/Rock
>xtoxm
>GW
>KMD
>Reborn

~~~~~~

>EK
>TT
>IG
>RG
>STD
>LF
>Me

What makes me more suspicious than thinktank? Or thinktank less suspicious than me?

I never said that the list was arranged from most suspicious to least suspicious. The only person within the list that has a solid spot would be BG, who I feel is the most suspicious to me. All other slots were/still are subject to change. The list is simply separated into those who I wouldn't mind seeing lynched and those who I do not think should be lynched today. This does not necessarily mean, as I explained in my previous posts, that I find certain people to be scummy and others not so scummy, it is just that many players fall within the bounds of a neutral read (you included) and I feel that others are more likely town. Then there are those who have claimed power roles, and because of this I do not want to see them lynched Day 1. I hope that makes sense, and if it doesn't tell me, and I will try to explain it again.

[kloud1516]

Meh, miss a day of activity and I find about five new pages worth of content.

Responding to inquiries:

Kloud, you express extreme confidence in BG being scum. (Ignoring the fact that I disagree with you) This should mean you have extreme confidence that I am town. Yet you express some suspicion for me, too. This makes no sense.

Why is this?

I wouldn't say it is extreme confidence, xtoxm. As I said earlier, BG gave off the biggest scum vibes to me, and Rock hasn't really done anything imo to alter my perspectives. So, while one can't be 100 percent sure, I am going on what I have, and at the moment that would be that BG has exhibited some of the most suspicious behavior in the game so far. I feel as though your inquiry is a loaded question/chain of reasoning, as you seem to be assuming that I have completely ruled you out as scum. This wouldn't be a wise thing to do--especially day one.

Like I have said several times, I am more inclined to think you are indeed town, and will be helpful in scum hunting efforts later on, but town can look just as suspicious as scum at times (which is why I am not completely confident that BG/Rock are scum), thus my reasoning for my expressing some suspicion of you. Most of my concerns with you revolve around your early play and your insistence on the LF Day 1 lynch, and then the way you responded to questioning about your vote on reborn. These are the only things I can remember me not particularly liking about you so far.

unvote: xtoxm

; as TT is the lynch for today, there is no point in keeping my vote on you.

I will try to post again before deadline. I am hoping to do another sweep through to make sure I didn't miss anything that needs to be addressed.

[kloud1516]

Doing a reread, I will post something of worth a little later.

[kloud1516]

Alright. Sorry about taking so long, the reread was slightly postponed earlier. This game is moving really fast, which is good for the game, but bad for me when trying to keep up.

A couple of things I would like to address:

I still feel that BG/Rock are scum. My earlier case against BG wasn't refuted if I am not mistaken, and Rock has done little to sway my opinion. This being said, I will begin to look elsewhere for other scum, as focusing on one person for the entire day is not going to benefit town.

Next -- Some things that I found odd/had questions about:

Well I'd like LF to reply - I could be wrong, and if so he should tell me. But I can't see any reason why claimed roles shouldn't post their night actions - what do we lose from that?

I don't like the way you start Day 2 by asking claimed roles to post night actions. Sure, providing information from night actions is beneficial to the town, but imo this can/should be withheld until later in the day when it is needed. By doing so, the town can accumulate more information based off of actions of other players, which then will lead to cases being made based off of logic and not just speculation. Should these cases begin to pile up against someone who is known to be innocent, that would be the time to give your information from the night.

If LF confirms someone it could mean they get killed by mafia sooner...

But if LF dies before revealing his innocent, then his investigation is lost. Which is much worse, IMO.

I am not understanding this, EK. Are you saying that LF should have revealed his innocent, or are you saying he shouldn't? The second paragraph makes it seem like you believe threat of LF being killed before his investigation is revealed is a strong possibility. This seems to come out of left field, and makes me wonder whether or not you also have information that you are trying to hide. Don't you think that if LF got close to being lynched he would give the town the information?

EK
Xtoxm/Rock
I've no idea for the third one. STD would be a gut feeling one but I ignore gut feelings and "too townie" isn't good reasoning so... I guess kloud could be scum, or kmd.

But today, I want EK or the lovers, barring critical information.

I think KMD addresses this later on page 52, but if you are guessing that kmd could be scum to the point that he has made your possible top 3 choice list, then why would you give him your invention?

EK
Xtoxm/Rock
I've no idea for the third one. STD would be a gut feeling one but I ignore gut feelings and "too townie" isn't good reasoning so... I

guess

kloud could be scum, or kmd.

But today, I want EK or the lovers, barring critical information.

Interesting that you have the same gut feeling on kloud and STD.

I ignore gut feelings, which is why I don't want to commit on scum number 3 just yet.

Ok.

Mine would be GW STD Kloud. Mainly from thinking just about everyone else is town.

Although I can see LF being scum. But that shouldn't be explored yet anyway.

Why STD?

I have a nagging feeling too,

but I think I'm just wary of him being scum and playing a great game. My reason tells me he's town though.

LF I can see as scum too, but you're right about us not talking about him yet.

Interesting. In my opinion, guessing and/or having nagging feelings about something indicates that a gut feeling is involved. You "guessed" that either me, STD, or KMD could be scum, you then claim that you ignore gut your gut feelings, but then follow this post up with saying that you have nagging feelings about STD.

I can understand separating players between those who you feel are most likely town and those you are unsure of, for I have done and am still doing the same as well. What struck me as funny was the phrasing of these three posts, as they seem to not be cohesive. Just thought I would point that out.

It's interesting to see the similarities these lists of 3 have.

I agree. Kloud and STD showed up on mine, reborn's, and Xtoxm's.

Rock is still scum though.

This

is

interesting, isn't it? The fact that five people have almost identical suspect lists without much reasoning besides "everyone else seems to be town" or "all I have to go on right now are gut feelings" is slightly alarming. I can't help but consider the possibility that at least one of you simply are trying to blend in with a group opinion.

[kloud1516]

Alright. Sorry about taking so long, the reread was slightly postponed earlier. This game is moving really fast, which is good for the game, but bad for me when trying to keep up.

A couple of things I would like to address:

I still feel that BG/Rock are scum. My earlier case against BG wasn't refuted if I am not mistaken, and Rock has done little to sway my opinion. This being said, I will begin to look elsewhere for other scum, as focusing on one person for the entire day is not going to benefit town.

I agree that the lovers contain a scum, but unlike you I think lynching them today is fine.

I never said that lynching them wasn't fine. I

want

to lynch BG/Rock, just as much as I wanted to lynch them yesterday. All I said was that I would begin looking elsewhere. This would be in order to find connections that may indicate scum partnership with BG/Rock, as well as a means of preventing me from getting tunnel vision when I could actually be helping pin other possible scum.

Next -- Some things that I found odd/had questions about:

Well I'd like LF to reply - I could be wrong, and if so he should tell me. But I can't see any reason why claimed roles shouldn't post their night actions - what do we lose from that?

I don't like the way you start Day 2 by asking claimed roles to post night actions. Sure, providing information from night actions is beneficial to the town, but imo this can/should be withheld until later in the day when it is needed. By doing so, the town can accumulate more information based off of actions of other players, which then will lead to cases being made based off of logic and not just speculation. Should these cases begin to pile up against someone who is known to be innocent, that would be the time to give your information from the night.

When it will be needed. What does that even mean. We need all the information now, while we can talk, and that will help us today. Information doesn't just vanish after it's been said, we can still use it today. All information accrued from claimed power roles' night actions should be told because it only helps the town. For this you get a big fat

FoS

It means exactly what I said: I don't think we should be outing power roles unless we need to, such as in the case of them getting close to a lynch. This keeps scum from getting more information about other power roles. Less information provided to scum is more beneficial to the town imo, especially so early in the game. A second thought: you yourself reborn have admitted/claimed that you believed LF could possibly be scum, so who is to say that the information he provides is truthful? I personally don't think is is scum as of now, but I find it interesting that you are willing to acquire information from someone you feel may be scum and trust it as a reliable way to clear another player.

If LF confirms someone it could mean they get killed by mafia sooner...

But if LF dies before revealing his innocent, then his investigation is lost. Which is much worse, IMO.

I am not understanding this, EK. Are you saying that LF should have revealed his innocent, or are you saying he shouldn't? The second paragraph makes it seem like you believe threat of LF being killed before his investigation is revealed is a strong possibility. This seems to come out of left field, and makes me wonder whether or not you also have information that you are trying to hide. Don't you think that if LF got close to being lynched he would give the town the information?

Interesting point, and as I've said I would be happy lynching EK, but I think you could be reading too much into this.

That is always a possibility, but I thought I would point it out.

EK
Xtoxm/Rock
I've no idea for the third one. STD would be a gut feeling one but I ignore gut feelings and "too townie" isn't good reasoning so... I guess kloud could be scum, or kmd.

But today, I want EK or the lovers, barring critical information.

I think KMD addresses this later on page 52, but if you are guessing that kmd could be scum to the point that he has made your possible top 3 choice list, then why would you give him your invention?

If you count, it's more like top 2, then everyone who isn't on my not lynch list. I.e. you and kmd have been mostly null up till this point. I gave kmd my invention because the town suggested it. At least, I think it was RF's idea and others backed her. Plus, the invention served basically to confirm me. Anything else it does is just a bonus. If he's scum, we lose nothing, if he's town, we gain something (although I don't know what that is).

[joke] Sorry, I am not capable of counting. [/joke] In all seriousness, though, I understand your point. The fact that you keep adding kmd's name into the possible scum equation just made me feel I should at least ask about it, as you did not respond to the question the first time I believe, and I wanted to clarify.

EK
Xtoxm/Rock
I've no idea for the third one. STD would be a gut feeling one but I ignore gut feelings and "too townie" isn't good reasoning so... I

guess

kloud could be scum, or kmd.

But today, I want EK or the lovers, barring critical information.

Interesting that you have the same gut feeling on kloud and STD.

I ignore gut feelings, which is why I don't want to commit on scum number 3 just yet.

Ok.

Mine would be GW STD Kloud. Mainly from thinking just about everyone else is town.

Although I can see LF being scum. But that shouldn't be explored yet anyway.

Why STD?

I have a nagging feeling too,

but I think I'm just wary of him being scum and playing a great game. My reason tells me he's town though.

LF I can see as scum too, but you're right about us not talking about him yet.

Interesting. In my opinion, guessing and/or having nagging feelings about something indicates that a gut feeling is involved. You "guessed" that either me, STD, or KMD could be scum, you then claim that you ignore gut your gut feelings, but then follow this post up with saying that you have nagging feelings about STD.

I can understand separating players between those who you feel are most likely town and those you are unsure of, for I have done and am still doing the same as well. What struck me as funny was the phrasing of these three posts, as they seem to not be cohesive. Just thought I would point that out.

Of course a gut feeling is there, but I'm ignoring it, which is why I'm not going after or voting for yourself, STD, or LF based on a nagging doubt. When I mentioned the nagging feelings to.. Xtoxm I think? He had just said that he was worried about STD because he seemed able to act really pro-town as scum. I admitted that I was wary of this, but that it wasn't an argument for STD's lynch - if STD is scum he will have to slip or we will have to get some info on him before we can talk about lynching him.

Fair enough. As I said, I just didn't like the phrasing of the posts, and this is what drove me to commenting on them. I will address this a little more later, but right now I am in a hurry.

It's interesting to see the similarities these lists of 3 have.

I agree. Kloud and STD showed up on mine, reborn's, and Xtoxm's.

Rock is still scum though.

This

is

interesting, isn't it? The fact that five people have almost identical suspect lists without much reasoning besides "everyone else seems to be town" or "all I have to go on right now are gut feelings" is slightly alarming. I can't help but consider the possibility that at least one of you simply are trying to blend in with a group opinion.

I've explained already about this. There are only so many people who aren't in the "not lynch" category. The "not lynch" category is probably pretty similar for most people, leaving large overlap for the top 3 scummy people.

For me, I have the following list

Not Lynch
Reborn
LF
IG
KMD (Not lynch today - also null)

Null
Xtoxm
Kloud
GW
RF
STD

Scummiest
EK
Rock

For Xtoxm, he's eliminating himself and Rock from the list, so he has even fewer people to choose from.

I understand this, but the fact that most of the lists are arranged in an almost identical order is what stands out the most. Sure, we are limited in information as of right now, and the information we do have has contributed to separating power roles from those that are still unconfirmed, but an identical list from five or so people raises a red flag, for as I have already said, it makes me wonder whether or not someone is just trying to blend in here.

More to come later.

[kloud1516]

I don't see why Rock is being found scummy. He's a newbie who's flaked, and what he did say I didn't exactly find scummy.

Vote Kloud

I get the feeling he's just hitching on to what Kmd/Reborn has said in attempt to get a double mislynch without looking like he's fully backing it.

So now you are trying to play BGs actions off as newbie faults? You claimed to have played other games with her, so she couldn't be that new.

Secondly, you feel that I am hitching of what KMD and Reborn have said? Where is this coming from? I provided a case against BG back in 227, so I feel that this your statement is utterly flawed. You say that I am trying to get another mislynch without fully backing it, and yet I fully backed it yesterday. The only reason I haven't voted yet was because, as I explained above, I would rather begin looking at other players now instead of having tunnel vision and concentrating solely on Rock. Is this what you are suggesting that I do, xtoxm; completely disregard anything that I deem noteworthy until my top suspect is lynched?

I think it is almost comical that you are willing to vote for me on the basis of something like this without citing any examples, and at the same time ignore things like this:

And Kmd, you think BG is scum. Fair enough. I accept this.

What about your other suspects? Who do you think she is scum with?

What are you opinions on GW?

Why is it not better to go for someone else today? Even if she's scum, she's not the only scum.

RF, STD, Kloud. They are more gut feelings than anything though.
As for GW, I was thinking town because GW saw the connection between you and BG which I saw as genuine scum hunting.
I feel very strongly that Rock is scum.
Everyone else, I am too unsure right now.

EK
Xtoxm/Rock
I've no idea for the third one. STD would be a gut feeling one but I ignore gut feelings and "too townie" isn't good reasoning so... I guess kloud could be scum, or kmd.

But today, I want EK or the lovers, barring critical information.

Ok.

Mine would be GW STD Kloud. Mainly from thinking just about everyone else is town.

Although I can see LF being scum. But that shouldn't be explored yet anyway.

Ok, I'm not giving out my night action. Something that stuck out to me:

To expand - finding out IG's target could tell us who the mafia are looking to kill, and then we can begin to explore our motives. I much prefer the psycological and logical side of the game rather than just guessing and almost handicapping ourselves by not revealing the info.

How is finding out my target going to tell us who the mafia are looking to kill? If I was a doctor then fair enough, because there was no kill, but I'm a bodyguard. If I die it's either because I picked the right person or the mafia wanted me dead.

It's interesting to see the similarities these lists of 3 have.

And yet you accuse me of "hitching" onto KMD and reborn's ideas. Of course, should anyone be asked about their list now, the separation of claimed and unclaimed will most likely be the reason for suspecting someone, making it difficult to accuse anyone of being suspicious for their lists. Even so, the "oh look, we have the same suspects!" and comments of that nature continue to stand out, which is what I was trying to get at in my response to reborn earlier. This is EXACTLY what I was getting at: I felt that, despite my suspicions of the lovers, it will be more beneficial to the town for me to begin looking at others. In doing so, I would be able to actually build cases based off of information provided in the thread rather than grouping the unclaimed together as the suspect list. Sure dividing the claimed from the unclaimed will help in a sense, but then proceeding to accuse someone of being suspicious simply because he/she is not one of the claimed players is not going to help the town much either, as it allows scum to jump all over the chance to vote for players with minimal/no reasoning for doing so.

You completely neglecting this trend makes me feel that I put a little too much faith in you Day 1 when I said you would be helpful later on. You are employing a distorted "feeling" as a means of finding someone suspicious, finding one suspicious for an action that others seem to be prominently expressing. Feelings can only get the town so far, and that is where actual cases that are logical and not fallacious become pivotal for scum hunting.

[kloud1516]

This

is

interesting, isn't it? The fact that five people have almost identical suspect lists without much reasoning besides "everyone else seems to be town" or "all I have to go on right now are gut feelings" is slightly alarming. I can't help but consider the possibility that at least one of you simply are trying to blend in with a group opinion.

Well, I know myself to be town and I know that Reborn at least is an inventor. I also believe Xtoxm to be town (I doubt very seriously that both lovers are scum). Who were the other two that put you and STD on lists?

Godot expressed that his suspicions were similar to yours, which I quoted in my response to xtoxm. I had thought that GW's list of suspects was similar, but I was mistaken. He says that STD could be scum, but other than that his list does not parallel the first suspect lists as others seem to do.

It means exactly what I said: I don't think we should be outing power roles unless we need to, such as in the case of them getting close to a lynch. This keeps scum from getting more information about other power roles. Less information provided to scum is more beneficial to the town imo, especially so early in the game. A second thought: you yourself reborn have admitted/claimed that you believed LF could possibly be scum, so who is to say that the information he provides is truthful? I personally don't think is is scum as of now, but I find it interesting that you are willing to acquire information from someone you feel may be scum and trust it as a reliable way to clear another player.

If Llama is lying then his information will give us a chance of catching scum. For example, if I'm scum, my information has told you that kmd AND me are both scum. If I'm town, my information has told you that I am an inventor and kmd has a special ability tomorrow night. This is an example of information that only helps the town.

Llama's information clears someone if he is telling the truth, and that is important because cleared people form pro-town voting blocks which are extremely useful. It also helps us to further evaluate whether his claim is true or not.

IG's information is the least important, but seeing as we know his ability, we might as well know who he thinks is useful to save.

All claimed power roles need to claim information, because we lose nothing from it, and I'm sick of repeating this. We

only gain

from it.

If you're scum this could be interesting because you're protecting the claimed power roles for no reason. Makes me think you could be scum with Llama.

Llama should NOT tell us who is confirmed yet. The scum will want to NK some one who we aren't going to lynch. The scum gain more from knowing this than we do at this point. If llama or his confirmed town are about to be lynched, that is when he should tell us his information.
IG should NOT be telling us who he is protecting. We have no reason to know.

^^^ This. Right here. Read it. QFT. ^^^

[kloud1516]

So now you are trying to play BGs actions off as newbie faults? You claimed to have played other games with her, so she couldn't be that new.

I said Rock, not BG.

Most of the rest of your post doesn't seem to make any sense in relation to what I said.

1) My mistake.

2) It does relate to your accusation. You claim that I am hitching off the ideas/opinions of reborn and KMD, yet you completely ignore others who seem to be posting the exact same suspect list without any information. I said that this is why I felt it would be beneficial to actually begin making cases off of information in the thread as opposed to this list, for speculation and hunches will only get the town so far. I then went on and elaborated on why I thought your argument was fallacious.

[kloud1516]

Kloud, where is your BG case? The post number that you directed us to was not even your post.

My apologies, I said 227 when it was 223. I then elaborate in 277 and respond to xtoxm's comments.

Kmd and Reborn expressed strong suspicion before you did, and they both look town for, so I looked out for someone who might try corroborate this opinion in try to get us lynched, and then you came along and did exactly that.

That is a case, is it not?

It was actually KMD and Reborn who expressed suspicion before me, if I am reading the thread right. Secondly, I think that I may have agreed with some of their points, but my argument is predominately independent of their cases.

[kloud1516]

Neither is GW.

But I will

I want STD and Kloud to do likewise, then I can die happily...Lol

? I take a break for a couple hours and come back to absolute chaos. I will do a reread, but could you explain what you mean xtoxm?

[kloud1516]

I am here.

[kloud1516]

WTF Rock! Just when I was starting to work out my schedule so I could be more active.

And no, xtoxm, I could not have prevented an NK last night.

Ugh!

[kloud1516]

Mod: Save us

this. QFT times infinity.

[kloud1516]

Yeah, I think so. I can't believe this.

[kloud1516]

How can we be blissful about this though?

[kloud1516]

^ Yeah, just a little depressing. . .

[kloud1516]

That's it, I need to talk a walk or something. I can't believe this.

[kloud1516]

Mod, if this game gets thrown out and you decide to do another Family Guy mafia out of the goodness of your heart, can I pre-in?

[kloud1516]

This is what the Spaniards call "el terrible" heh heh

[kloud1516]

I dont know how much good thridding is going to do, but you could fourth?

[kloud1516]

[kloud1516]

Wow, you guys are actually agreeing with me on something.

[kloud1516]

This is what the Spaniards call "el terrible" heh heh

vote kloud

For even thinking about claiming.

you got me.

FomS, FoS, HoS, OMGUS vote: reborn

[kloud1516]

This is what the Spaniards call "el terrible" heh heh

vote kloud

For even thinking about claiming.

LOL!



Btw - Kloud, from your avatar, i'm guessing you'd be interested in playing FF7 Mafia? You should sign up.

WHERE!! OMG I was planning on modding an FF mafia game. v.v Now I can't. Where is it??

[kloud1516]

Signing up for it is bittersweet. I was in the process of creating my own Final Fantasy Mafia game to mod, but now that can't happen. The flavour and death scenes were going to be amazing.

[kloud1516]

Wait, I need to be in that too!

For every person I see change their avatar to sephiroth, I shall kill you!

[kloud1516]

oh, and thanks xtoxm

[kloud1516]

Signing up for it is bittersweet. I was in the process of creating my own Final Fantasy Mafia game to mod, but now that can't happen. The flavour and death scenes were going to be amazing.

Well, that's no reason for you to give up now. You could still make it! I'm sure people would play.

I guess I could. I am not sure if I am eligible to mod yet, so it might be a good thing for me to have more time so that I can make really enjoyable.

[kloud1516]

Wait, I need to be in that too!

For every person I see change their avatar to sephiroth, I shall kill you!

Pfft, Riku all the way, dude. Even if he is Kingdom Hearts, and not Final Fantasy...

QFT. Riku and Axel are hands down my favorite KH characters.

[kloud1516]

And I gotta say, I think I would rather be Rufus Shinra than Sephiroth . . . maybe.

[kloud1516]

Agreed. I get to pizza someone first.

[kloud1516]

I'd <3 to kill Yuffie...

[kloud1516]

I went to Coney Island instead of Queue... silly ghostie...

For that you deserve to be a vanilla moogle.

[kloud1516]

Yes, an eviction notice from spooner street.

[kloud1516]

I'm going to do a quick reread.

[kloud1516]

Here are my thoughts on the situation.

Reading over the last several pages, I do indeed believe that the lynch we can get the most information out of would be, regrettably, GW. As I have already said, there was no way I could have stopped an NK, and so the jailkeeping scenario seems to be the most logical reason for there being no kill Night 1. I was on the fence about you, GW, for most of Day 2, for as reborn has said, you have provided reasonable arguments throughout the game, but it now comes down to acquiring information that will most likely fit many more pieces of this puzzle together, and I agree that town can get the most out of your lynch.

[kloud1516]

I thought the popcorn idea would be the best way to tackle this, but I guess we won't be doing that now. (^^^)

I am

Meg, Stalker.

I am a Tracker.

Paraphrased Flavor:

No one pays attention to you; even when you have something important to say. You notice the presence of strange characters lurking around Spooner Street, but no one will stop to give you a chance to point them out. You are tired of nobody liking you, so you decide that by following these strangers and proving their guilt you will finally become accepted.

Do you all want me to provide my investigations from each night as well?

[kloud1516]

Night 1

: I tracked LF. I wasn't so sure about his JOAT claim for some reason, so I decided that by following him I may be able to assist in confirming/disproving him as a power role. I was told that he went to see GW, which made me believe he was indeed town. The next day (Day 2), as we all know, he then provided the town with this information.

Night 2

: I tracked RF. She was one of the unconfirmed players, and my gut was telling me that she was the best choice to track. RF visited no one N2.

Night 3

: I tracked EK. Once again, she was one of the unconfirmed players and I could not decide between her or STD. I figured that STD would most likely be the target of one of the other power roles during the night, so I decided to try and kill two birds with one stone by tracking EK. My thought was that if one of the power roles got information to indicate STD was scum, I would also have something to possibly unveil the third scum. EK, however, visited no one last night.

[kloud1516]

I think it's pretty likely that there are two scum, and that they are a combination of Kloud, and then either STD or EK.

Kloud, I expected a full claim from you.

Why didn't you mention what you received last night?

I was planning to after posting my night actions, reborn, but my sister burned her hand and I had to rush her to the doctor's office.

Back to where I left off: reborn gave me his invention last night; a Satellite Tracking Device. The PM did not specify in exact detail what it did, but told me to look up Lie Detector on the wiki -- so I am assuming that reborn gave me the Lie Detector device to use. The PM says that the device can also be used during the day.

[kloud1516]

As far as I can find Kloud did not make any commentary during the time between Rock's Watcher claim and his implication of GW and StD as his scumbuddies, to which Kloud reacted very negatively.

1) I did not say anything after Rock's watcher claim because I felt that he was still going to be lynched based off of the solid arguments leveled against him. I did not think that providing a counter claim would be necessary, as since Rock appeared to be the lynch for the day me doing so would have only given scum one more power role NK option.

2) I acted negatively to the idea for the same reason almost everyone else did: I thought the game was going to be dropped/abandoned because of Rock's actions.

[kloud1516]

I think Kloud is lying because the way he puts it only STD can be scum.

There are two scum out there.

We now have no protective roles so we can't guarantee my survival in the no lynch scenario.

I assume that Cleveland died protecting someone.

I believe you are putting words into my mouth here, reborn. I never said that I felt STD could be the only scum. All I said was that neither RF or EK visited another player in the nights I tracked them. This could be an indication that neither players submitted the NK choice just as much as it could indicate that they are townies.

If I did say that STD could be the only possible scum candidate, please point it out.

[kloud1516]

Hmmm, you raise a good point.

So why haven't you told me about my item?

I think it's pretty likely that there are two scum, and that they are a combination of Kloud, and then either STD or EK.

Kloud, I expected a full claim from you.

Why didn't you mention what you received last night?

I was planning to after posting my night actions, reborn, but my sister burned her hand and I had to rush her to the doctor's office.

Back to where I left off: reborn gave me his invention last night; a Satellite Tracking Device.

The PM did not specify in exact detail what it did, but told me to look up Lie Detector on the wiki -- so I am assuming that reborn gave me the Lie Detector device to use. The PM says that the device can also be used during the day.

The is all the information/assumption I can give to you, for I do not have anything else to go on myself. I am guessing that what you gave me was a Lie Detector, a device in which will tell me whether or not a particular statement made by a player is true or false. I am allowed to use this during the day.

[kloud1516]

Probally, that might be good to clarify with the mod if we are serious about trying this.

I can not confirm or deny the existence of any role or claim made.

Curses. I think that the action is successful as long as reborn doesnt get blocked though. I am almost ready to say "lets lynch Kloud", but want to give him one last post to lay down his thoughts.

My thoughts:

> I believe that everyone should do as RF suggested and provide a statement, short and specific, that deals with alignment. Once all the statements are made, I think it would be best that everyone vote for who they want me to use the device on, and I will provide the results.

>I am not really understanding why you all seem to be so certain I am scum. Are there any specific cases, or are you just basing it off of the fact that I claimed tracker? I would like an answer to this, for I would like some peace of mind that there was logical reason behind my lynch as opposed to speculation.

I find it interesting that neither RF or EK have come forth to admit that they did not visit anyone, which makes me feel uncertain about both of them right now. We have two players that could prove that I am a power role, but neither of them have yet to do so. I personally would like a chance to prove my role, seeing as how almost every other claimed role has had a chance to do so throughout this game. If come tomorrow my results turn up invalid, then lynch me.

[kloud1516]

Oh, and happy Scum Day LF.

[kloud1516]

EBWOP: Birthday

[kloud1516]

I agree that your plan would be the most productive for us, LF, but there is something I would like to address:

Now, we know that at least one of Kloud and Dragon is scum. It could easily be both

since Kloud seemed confused that his claim made dragon auto-scum.

In fact out of the what... 20 something pairings this is one of my top choices. Make that is.

I think Kloud is lying because the way he puts it only STD can be scum.

There are two scum out there.

We now have no protective roles so we can't guarantee my survival in the no lynch scenario.

I assume that Cleveland died protecting someone.

I believe you are putting words into my mouth here, reborn. I never said that I felt STD could be the only scum. All I said was that neither RF or EK visited another player in the nights I tracked them. This could be an indication that neither players submitted the NK choice just as much as it could indicate that they are townies.

If I did say that STD could be the only possible scum candidate, please point it out.

I was not confused, I was responding to reborn's statement in which he claims that I am saying only StD could be scum, which was not the case. I was simply providing the results from my night actions, providing nothing more, and nothing less. The phrasing of reborn's statement claimed that I had said STD was the only scum, when in fact I never said anything to that effect. I provided my information in a straight-forward manner in my opinion, so I feel that how it was interpreted has little to do with me claiming that RF visited no one N2 and EK visited no one N3.

I don't see how me providing this implies I feel only STD can be scum, as there is still the possibility that one of them did not submit the action. There is also the possibility that both could be scum together, but I feel that this is unlikely.

vote: No lynch

[kloud1516]

Hmn. I see your point, but maybe that is what farside wants us to believe. I know that that would be straying into WIFOM, so I really don't know what to do. I personally think it is the best plan at the moment though.

[kloud1516]

EBWOP. What I mean is the invention, just like the previous ones, will not do what we want it to.

Oh, yes, that is a big possibility. I don't know, I still think that taking the risk may pay off for us in the end though.

[kloud1516]

Tonight I will randomly roleblock one of the four uncleared players, earning me a vote. So if there is no kill it was a result of that, since nothing else can cause one. At daybreak (assuming I am alive and someone died) Kloud should declare if he was blocked or not, and if he wasnt who he tracked. This should create ~50% chance of exposing all possible scum pairings.

Now - I feel that reborn should aslo throw a lie detector invention into the group of four players. With a RB, track(?), lie detector x2 all going off at once we might be able to force at least one player into the "has to be scum" catagory.

That should leave us at 5 players with at least 1 confirmed town, luck will put us at 6 with a confirmed scum.

The plan seems properly thought out, so I will go along with it. I would much prefer taking a risk that could give us more information going into a possible lylo tomorrow.

[kloud1516]

I still say we no lynch because it help the town. It allows another invention to come out and *maybe* a RB.

If we do no lynch I want Kloud to track me, as that way he only has a 1/4 chance of guessing my move correctly. If there is a kill, we have a 5 player lylo which I prefer. I see no downside to the no lynch.

QFT. So you want me to track you as opposed to reborn?

[kloud1516]

So should I use the LD today, or wait to use it tomorrow?

[kloud1516]

@Kloud, Dragon, RF, EK - Who are the scum?

At this point I believe that StD and EK are scum.

If you want me to, I will make Dragon into a Super Saint using the Death Ray tomorrow night.

As for who are scum, I see StD + Kloud as being a viable scumpair. StD hasn't said two words about Kloud the entire game until today,

and Kloud has only had nice things to say about him until now.

I definitely also see E_K as an option, though. I'm not sure who she'd fit in with as a scumpartner, but I'll have to look into it.

This would be because, through most of the game, I have not found StD's actions or posts to be suspicious. Day 1 I found his posts to be logical and contributory to the game, and so I did not feel that he was all that scummy. Day 2 was short due to Rock's actions, and a good portion of Day 3 revolved around whether or not the town thought lynching GW was the best option--mitigating a lot of action that would possibly make StD seem suspicious to me.

This changed when Day 4 came around and all of the information amassed by started to fall into place. EK hadn't visited anyone in the night, and you had been RBed, preventing you from performing actions either. This information caused all arrows to then point towards StD as scum, which is why my opinions of him have changed. I would also like to point out that reborn's "where is StD when we need him?" and "thank god for StD" would be applicable to this point as well. Does that make him a viable candidate for scumpartner as well? (I am aware the answer is no, for he is a confirmed power role, but I am just trying to make a point here.)

Suspicions are always open to change, for as information accumulates certain suspicions are strengthened while others are invalidated; which is exactly the case at the moment in regards to StD.

[kloud1516]

I just sent the post into the mod.

[kloud1516]

RF's claim was true.

[kloud1516]

I think we should lynch kloud today and then we'll still have time for RBs and inventions and all that good stuff since kloud is scum.

vote kloud

You seem to be pushing awfully hard for my lynch based off of nothing (that I can see) at this point. I find this to be very telling, as you seem to be getting progressively more aggressive and insistent that I am scum, but provide no reasoning for believing so other than claiming I am giving false results--which can be easily disproved with a no lynch.

[kloud1516]

Okay just so people are no longer confused. Here is what happened.

Llama targeted GW that night with the double vote, but unknown to all KMD had a device that switched people at night. KMD switched GW with Reborn. Reborn became the double voter.

I wanted to explain it...

BTW, I was cop.
Got guilty on Rock which is why I attacked so hard.
I felt that I could get the lynch without having to claim.

Heh heh, I knew all of this, which is why you died KMD

[kloud1516]

Yeah, this game was awesome.

*Is going to go nominate farside for a scummy now*