Mini 611 - Troy, Meet Helen (Game Over)

[Netlava]

Walnut needs a lynch. He's spent much of this game discussing how convinced he's growing rather than searching for tells. Plus, his vote on had is in stark contrast with his playstyle.

[Netlava]

Also, no one hammer plz. Thesp hasn't given any reasons for his vote.

[Lord Gurgi]

You also need to claim. Quit dodging it.

[Netlava]

I will claim. I'm just postponing it until it becomes inevitable that I will be lynched.

You seem unusually curious.

[Macavenger]

Hammer threat to Netlava. Claim. Trying to avoid it is not helping your case.

I would like to see more of Thesp's reasoning ASAP, though I realize it's late at night now, and probably not a good time for him to be writing detailed posts. In particular, Thesp, is the fact that farside had to replace out a mitigating factor on her non-scumhunting at all? I realize you said that was not all of your case.

[camn]

camn, you're saying you're also suspicious of Battousai - I assume you think he's bussing Netlava then?

\

Sadly, I can see it both ways.

If Netlava turns up innocent, Batt gets away with his vote because of NL's overall scummyness.

If NL is indeed scum, Batt gets a little innocence spread on him for voting.

If Batt is innocent, he gets to do the happy dance if NL is scum.

I know it's weak, but i don't see voting patterns as much of a tell. I've seen scum buss every last buddy they had.

they don't value life like we do.

c

[Netlava]

Claim=vanilla

Batt's posts seem genuine to me. I would put LG, walnut, and cf riot above him.

Anyways, I believed I've addressed everything in my defense. The "random vote changing" is just the change in opinion as the game progresses and my tendency to commit too early. There's no reason for me to do it as scum - it looks bad either way.

[Netlava]

Also, it's not too late to run up walnut.

[Walnut]

Voting for you because you have yet to do any scumhunting. At first you posted a whole lot of nothing, and now that you've got some votes, all you're doing is defending yourself. Still no scumhunting.

Right now I don't have a lot of space for scumhunting. Count how much I have posted in the last few days, and how much of it has been spent fending off accusations. Usually more or less the same accusations, which adds to the general feeling of wasted time. It is necessary to defend myself, and if I miss any questions, as I did recently, people point out that I have, so the expectation is certainly there.

@Walnut, regardless of what questions you were answering, your post got a few people off topic for a while. I'm not arguing that what you said was or wasn't justified, just that you did say it, and it did derail the town.

According to you, I answered questions, which may have been justified. What is the point here? Even if you believe the answers "derailed" the town and someone in this process was scummy, would it have been the person who asked the question, not the one who answered it?

I think both actions were scummy. I don't point out everything I find scummy.

That is just silly. You ask me a question, I answer it, and gotcha- I am scum for answering? I would also be scum for not answering, wouldn't I?

You're right about the 137 though, don't know where I got defend from. More like fruitlessly attacks. I assumed no one listened to him, since there were very few posts that talked about BB or what he said. Also noted, how you group Tinsley in there with responding to BB but no one else.

I have explained my stance on BB previously. He needed to ask to be replaced or modify his style greatly, or he was scum. I am not sure how I am responsible for whether other people post about him or not- if I attack him and no one else does it is not deliberately fruitless and therefore scummy, as you seem to be saying here.

You've decided from two posts that BB is scum? Pretty bold statement there. Personally, I think his actions were brilliant (assuming he was town) because his claim would have easily drew mafia attention.

So, was I scumhunting here or not? Again you are contradicting yourself. As pointed out by others, his claim would equally well have drawn investigative and protective town roles, which is hardly brilliant.

Why do I group Tinsley in there and no one else? Because Tinsley also responded at that time, and no one else did. Again, I am not getting your point in this accusation. Equally, if I had attacked someone that other people were pursuing, would you have called me scummy for getting on a bandwagon? I believe some people did for my vote on Hadhfang.

You give a one liner for voting Had, based on your gut and put him at L-2. It was your reason and your manner of jumping on Had's bandwagon that drew suspicion towards you.

Based on reading a number of pages of play to date, which you seem not to count as I was not attacking people during it. Strangely, the other two people getting on the Hadhfang wagon at that time were Macavenger (who posted even less by way of reason than I did) and Charter, who are now suspecting me for doing the same thing as them.

Walnut, you really didn't defend yourself against my accusations. You corrected my improper use of words in a few cases, but you didn't try and refute much.

When the improper words were the key to your arguments, that seems significant. I thought I had pointed out conclusively that your accusations were baseless. Please tell me what I have missed.

The main reason for suspecting you, not scumhunting.

You mean, not in the style you favour.

Plus your latest post is taking a very noncommittal stance on netlava. You even say so yourself. It seems scummy, like all that needs to happen is netlava needs just a little more support, then you'll add your vote.

Nope, needed a deadline My point was that if we focused only on Netlava he would be lynched, and we would miss the opportunity for more Day 1 converstion. Do you feel that you have benefited from the last few pages?

Greatly.

Yet you still feel my play was scummy? Is it that if a post doesn't include a vote or at least a FOS it is not beneficial to the town?

Other than in recent games I have a 100% success rate at being a mafia target on night one- my ghost will mouth it silently

Has nothing to do with this game.

It certainly does! It makes me very conscious that if I don't say something on Day 1 I may not have the chance to say it on Day 2.

Other games have nothing to do with this one.

Don't repeat the mantra- look at what I am saying, and think about it. If you had something useful to the town to say, and were aware that due to lynching or NKs you might not get a chance to say it later, why would you wait a day?

Initially I did not suspect Charter or Macavenger for accusing me, but when the arguments are getting so lame I am starting to get a bit suspicious. Call it playstyle, but to me pushing a bad argument is worse than not pushing an argument.

Bah, tired of hashing over the same old points. Claiming vanilla is not going to change my vote on Netlava.

[charter]

@Camn, Ah I see that I was on there twice, but my real vote is on Walnut.

Hello Thesp. I'm not a fan of this "Let's all defend LG" fad, but I don't know what I can do to stop it.

What is the point of this post again?

@Thesp, your reason for suspecting farside/Fark is lack of scumhunting (396). What are your thoughts on Walnut and his lack of scumhunting?

I don't like Netlava's reaction to Thesp's declaration he's scum.

I agree with Mac in 404. How do you know that farside didn't scumhunt because she didn't have much time? She did have to get replaced. I know I sound like I'm defending her, but I don't think she's scum right now.

@Walnut in 408. Oh dear... I wasn't attacking you in half those quotes, no need for you to respond to them as they were my thoughts, not something debatable. You don't need to defend yourself anymore, I'm already convinced you need to be lynched. This is why you don't have time to scumhunt, you spend too much time defending.

You not living past night one has NOTHING to do with this game. Period. There's no reason to throw that out there.

Walnut, I'm not pushing arguments, you're going out of your way to defend yourself, and your accusations on me and Mac seem OMGUSy.

[Tinsley]

You not living past night one has NOTHING to do with this game. Period. There's no reason to throw that out there.

Exactly. Walnut you continue to post useless content. I understand you defending yourself, but overall your posts have done little to help find scum. In regards to setup speculation, I don't believe you were directly asked questions, and instead of ignoring the questions, you answered them, distracting the town further.

Because Netlava is so close to a lynch:

Vote: Walnut

Netlava and Hadfanhg seem suspect to me, but I am getting the strong read off them that they just play Suspect. But I will watch them.

I think Batt is scummier....

camn - We still have over a week before the deadline, why do you feel the need to vote now? If you're not certain on Netlava, I don't think you should vote him yet. I agree that Battousai is scummier, and would be willing to vote him if we can get enough people to choose him over Netlava.

Tinsley pops up when his name is called

, and rarely otherwise.

Thesp - Welcome to the game. I'll admit that I don't post nearly as frequently as others do here, but I've also been busy, and as I believe farside said, the frequency of posts in this game is high and difficult to keep up with. Can you provide examples of me popping up when my name is called? Can you also give us reasons why you're voting Netlava?

[Farkshinsoup]

Sorry, Farkshinsoup, that you inherited an already-caught scum role.

I'll just have to muddle through somehow.

Re-read done. Jeez, you guys can post.

To me, though, the most important post in this game is this one:

I think had is scum, judging by the way he claimed. Maybe we should lynch him today anyway. Besides, the worst case scenario is losing an unknown sanity cop, which isn't that bad, is it? I'm sure my excellent scum hunting abilities will make up for it.

Can't believe we were not going to lynch the guy who suggested lynching a claimed cop. A claimed cop with no counter-claim.

I'm happy to drop the hammer. But first:

Thesp: could you give us a little more info (flavour, anything) about Had's, now your, cop claim?

[charter]

Fark, just because there's no counterclaim only means the real cop might not be an idiot. It certainly doesn't mean Had is town. However, I agree that that post by Netlava is terrible.

[Macavenger]

Right now I don't have a lot of space for scumhunting. Count how much I have posted in the last few days, and how much of it has been spent fending off accusations. Usually more or less the same accusations, which adds to the general feeling of wasted time. It is necessary to defend myself, and if I miss any questions, as I did recently, people point out that I have, so the expectation is certainly there.

Defending yourself is necessary. However, it's also necessary for townies to continue scumhunting while defending themselves. You can make time for it. This would be less of an issue had you been scumhunting earlier in the game, but since most of the wagon on you is based on not scumhunting, continuing to not do so is not helpful.

Based on reading a number of pages of play to date, which you seem not to count as I was not attacking people during it. Strangely, the other two people getting on the Hadhfang wagon at that time were Macavenger (who posted even less by way of reason than I did) and Charter, who are now suspecting me for doing the same thing as them.

Wrong. Your reason for jumping on hadhfang's wagon was basically agreeing with mine. There's also the difference that I put a third vote on him, whereas you put a fifth.

Yet you still feel my play was scummy? Is it that if a post doesn't include a vote or at least a FOS it is not beneficial to the town?

No. But you need to either be including stuff about why you think people or scummy, or questions for people so you can get more content to evaluate. You've done almost none of either. About all you've done is bandwagon hop hadhfang and suspect blackberry for basically frivolous reasons. You've made no real effort to figure out who scum are other than suspecting claimed power roles early on. OMGUSing charter and I doesn't count.

Don't repeat the mantra- look at what I am saying, and think about it. If you had something useful to the town to say, and were aware that due to lynching or NKs you might not get a chance to say it later, why would you wait a day?

First of all, keyword useful. Most of what you've said hasn't been.

Secondly, there's no reason to assume you're going to be killed Night 1. Fear of being nightkilled should geenrally not be affecting your play as town.

Call it playstyle, but to me pushing a bad argument is worse than not pushing an argument.

Except the arguments aren't bad. You seem to be thinking that just because you've responded to them makes them no longer valid, which is wrong. You're not really defending so much as just posting excuses taht don't make you look any less scummy.

[ShadowGirl]

Will claim later if there's no chance of Walnut getting lynched.

Also, it's not too late to run up walnut.

You seem to switch tunnel vision from one person to another.

I will claim. I'm just postponing it until it becomes inevitable that I will be lynched.

I would think that with people waiting on a claim before they hammer you leads it be pretty inevitable at that point.

[charter]

SG, once again, thanks for letting us know you're here, but that post said more nothing than most of Walnut's. Do you have any comments on the people not voting Netlava? Or want to point out someone who isn't about to be lynched.

[ShadowGirl]

Well, Thesp is rubbing me the wrong way with saying he is absolutely sure that Netlava, Tinsley and farside22 are scum. :/

I've got a town reading on Tinsley, and town - null reading on farside.

[Tinsley]

ShadowGirl - What do you think of camn suspecting Batt most, but voting Netlava? Do you think Netlava's unwillingness to claim makes him more likely to be scum? What do you think about the case on Walnut, and charter's comparison of you and Walnut? We may be nearing the end of Day 1 soon, so it would be good to hear all your thoughts before then.

[ShadowGirl]

ShadowGirl - What do you think of camn suspecting Batt most, but voting Netlava? Do you think Netlava's unwillingness to claim makes him more likely to be scum? What do you think about the case on Walnut, and charter's comparison of you and Walnut? We may be nearing the end of Day 1 soon, so it would be good to hear all your thoughts before then.

Thank you for asking me direct questions - my mind is a bit scatterbrained at the moment, but this way I can focus better.

I'm not liking Camn voting Netlava even though she thinks Netlava is 'playing scummier' as opposed to Batt 'being scumimer' - though I can gather from her post she would rather Netlava out because it would grant her with more information as Netlava has been playing all over the place.

Hm, I would say Netlava's unwillingness to claim as a nulltell. I mean, being townie or scum you still want to lengthen the day and not get
lynched.

It's true, almost all he's done is fend off accusations - but he has contributed votes with reasoning. And I don't like how he talks about how he's so likely to get NKed. Getting NKed would mean that he's dangerous to scum somehow.

As far the comparison against me and Walnut - while he has been posting a lot with little content, I have been posting fairly little with little content. However, I truly haven't had time for this game before - though I do now as I'm currently only in two games.

[Lord Gurgi]

Well, Thesp is rubbing me the wrong way with saying he is absolutely sure that Netlava, Tinsley and farside22 are scum. :/

As far as I know that is Thesp's general playstyle.

It is clear to me that Netlava switched suspicion to Walnut when Walnut became the #2 target, to divert attention.

[ShadowGirl]

Well, Thesp is rubbing me the wrong way with saying he is absolutely sure that Netlava, Tinsley and farside22 are scum. :/

As far as I know that is Thesp's general playstyle.

It is clear to me that Netlava switched suspicion to Walnut when Walnut became the #2 target, to divert attention.

Is it? I've never played a game with him, so I wouldn't know.

If Netlava were to turn up scum, would that clear Walnut? And if he were to turn up town?

[Lord Gurgi]

Are you asking me? I don't even think that Walnut is scummy.

[ShadowGirl]

Well yes, it was directed to you - but it's also a question to everyone.

[Netlava]

It is clear to me that Netlava switched suspicion to Walnut when Walnut became the #2 target, to divert attention.

I must have incredible powers of anticipation then.

[camn]

Shadowgirl Almost had it...

I think, in general, we get more information with someone at L-1... and WAY more information from the Hammer than we get from a deadline lynch.
Me voting Batt RIGHT NOW would do very little for the town, IMO (like voting for Nader).. whereas ramping up the pressure on Netlava just might.

That said.. I keep my vote for now.
It seems Netlava can't get any trust going. If he survives tonight, will tomorrow be any different? Or will he still be a leading contender?

I will take a nice hard look at Walnut, though.

c