Open 83 - Polygamist Mafia (Game over!) before 628

[SpyreX]

STOP.

Hammertime.

(cant touch this).

I confirmed already, but just popping my head in.

[SpyreX]

Vote: Nameless

In a world with no names, how are we to find scum, hmm?

[SpyreX]

Its not all that hard to see reasons not to claim. Voting patterns become much more interesting to analyze without a mass-claim not to mention it would be much easier to catch slipups in the mafia voting if they dont break into partner pairs.

The claim IS inevitable (probably at L-1) but there was no real reason to push it this way this fast. Why play the same game the same way twice?

[SpyreX]

Personally, I'd claim day 2 as well. I expect the L-1 claim from at least the one party regardless.

[SpyreX]

Damnit Gimbo,

Did you just, after talking about waiting to claim, start a chain of mass claims AND claim you were scum as well?

You've said it about me before. Either you're insane or a diabolical mastermind.

The best is, regardless of alignment, I KNOW flea is probably shaking his head.

Well, I didn't want to claim and I'm not going to yet. I'll leave that up to my lover <3 or process of elimination.

[SpyreX]

Actually, after reading the above dialogue, I have some huge reservations with Gimbo's idea and delivery:

1.) Massclaiming, at this point, I dont think is a good idea.
2.) Suggesting unequivocally that lovers should partner vote is a BAD idea:
a.) You are suggesting, on some level, removing the analysis and thought process from the slower member in place of a "me too" vote. I may trust my partner, but if I think they're going the wrong way I'll sure as hell argue with them about it.
b.) IF we do not win the game day 1, you are setting up a situation where if just ONE townie makes a mistake and the scum is even remotely paying attention to the game the scum wins (Townie A votes, Lover follows, Scum masspiles before the vote can be taken off).
3.) Claiming scum, with no night actions, makes no sense except in a WIFOM case. It is not like you could have done it to keep yourselves from being NK'd by the scum - it only serves to try and keep the TOWN from voting on you to keep you alive.
4.) Your plan puts way too much emphasis on you staying alive and, somehow, you interpret that as you being town. However, in this game, staying alive as town D1 really doesn't matter as much: Assume even on a mislynch there is information that can lead to town finding scum tomorrow.
5.) (And this gets me) You've created a situation where, if you WERE actually town, you've lost the game for us if it goes to day 2 and you are alive. Guess who I'd vote for? Hint - its you. That means, by your own logic, my partner would and then all the scums sure as hell would.

Unvote
Vote: Gimbo

Also, damnit, I could totally see you BEING scum and then CLAIMING scum just to rub it in if it worked.

This plan is so bad for the town as it sits that I honestly think you are scum in your own WIFOM.

The OMGUS vote doesn't hurt any either.

[SpyreX]

Pretty much. I may be reading more to it than what Gimbo meant, but I Reeeaaallllllyyyyy dont like the idea of "TOWN MUST VOTE TOGETHER"

Hell, sometimes partners run into issues they couldn't control (sup flea ). Compound that with some kind of "you must be scum you're not voting with your partner ahhahahaaa" setup and I'd put my money on the scum winning this game.

[SpyreX]

Secret Edit: TOWN LOVERS MUST VOTE TOGETHER

[SpyreX]

Knight, I'd like some of your reasons for your vote on Captain Crazy there.

[SpyreX]

Gimbo, you are a hoot but coming out claiming scum is just nuts. So, Captain Crazy is a term of endearment.

Joking aside, I firmly believe your strategy helps the scum far more than the town Hence, I think it is a strat started by scum, so.

[SpyreX]

So, all your suspicions, in general, are based on voting you because you gave a bad plan and said you were scum?

Gimbo, my good man, that is a whole mess of OMGUS.

[SpyreX]

Woo, action in this game.

First off, Knight, your plan is not thought through all the way. You've setup a situation where you think flea is scum and based on any of his actions, well, flea will be scum. I do not know what to make of it but, right now, there are more pressing matters.

Gimbo, ohh Gimbo.

SpyreX because of his overreaction to my posts which is odd given his normally mellow temper in all the other games I'm in with him.

I'm not really overreacting. i decided, before the game even started, to be more aggressive because in this setup it is obvious that multiple strong wagons will lead to the most information necessary for the town to win (I, of course, assume a Day 1 mislynch).

Now, you with that amazing scum claim, setup a situation where, if you are town, you've all but doomed the town to a loss if you survive today- the only thing you can really say is "Trust me." Well, you've played with me and know how I roll with my analysis - I dont like your plan and I really dont like how strong you've pushed it.

After that you've FoS'd everyone who didn't agree with your plan AND FoS'd people who voted for you (the latter being an OMGUS no matter how you toss it).

How, praytell, have you lost it for us if you survive today with that scumclaim? Assuming a mislynch (which is what I bet on), tomorrow based on your OWN plan it will only take 1 townie voting for you (which will happen) and then its game.

To me, you've setup a situation where the only course of action is to actually test your claim of scum. The game is not long enough to let you ride it out AND, to me, your claim of scum makes far more sense in this game if you were actually scum.

Also, as an aside:

1.) You realize that, in 76, the massclaim idea WAS started by scum?
2.) If you're going to meta-read me, you realize that in this game YOU are behaving far more differently than I am?

If my lover ever gets use of their legs again and finishes up their cigarette I expect they'll chime in soon. I'm NOT going to claim.

[SpyreX]

I like how in all of this hulaballoo my statements about this plan being a good scum setup haven't been commented on, at all.

If Gimbo IS town, we will lose this game. Call me a prophet, for I have deemed it so.

I guess me and my partner have been deduced by almost every other town pair capitulating to this.

Now, on top of everything else, Gimbo is AGAIN saying we're scum for not claiming which, of course, we have said we weren't going to do since the beginning.

Adel has her own reasons for thinking Gimbo is scum (which I agree with).

This coupled from my own set of reasons makes me feel very, very confident in my vote.

Of course, like I said, after this gambit if Gimbo IS town he has, unquestionably, lost the game for us. So, there we are.

Normally at this point I'd say it would take someone actually claiming scum to make me change my mind, but...we've already done that.

[SpyreX]

SpyreX: I don't understand your logic that if I am town, town's already lost. The onlu way this is true is if you are dead set that me and Flea will be killed today and since you and Adel are painted as the perfect townies, you will of course cast doubt on someone else tomorrow and save your own behinds.

Harvey: To me it seemed more like you were waiting for your fellow scum-buds and see if they claim, if they do, then you also claim. I recall that you never did claim until chenhsi basically fished your lover out of your post.

It seems like there's exactly 4 player dead set on not claiming and for some reason, I don't think that's a coincidence.

Kill Adel or SpyreX today, if they flip town, I give you all permission to lynch me tomorrow, how's that?

That's how sure I am. If some crazy shtick happens and we are BOTH town (unlikely),

then I'll go away losing this game

but learning a valuable lesson.

And you've got your failbot already in the shape of Knight/Forbid if they are also town. Not like it'll be hard to do, regardless.

So, in case you can't see it; by claiming scum and having US be the ones to attack you for it you have setup back-to-back lynches of us and you in some fashion. IF we are all town we lose the game. We are town, therefore IF YOU ARE TOWN we lose the game period.

[SpyreX]

Sorry forbid, its more Knight than you. He said that lynch me first and if I'm town, lynch Gimbo - thats the whole "if Gimbo is town, we're going to lose" business.

Knight is going to vote for me tomorrow and, if you two vote as a pair, that will be game if Gimbo is town.

Which, of course, I do not think is likely but I have to prepare for.

[SpyreX]

Sorry, I don't believe in townie suicide blindly voting with my lover. I have my own thoughts, and if Knight isn't in agreement, we'll just have a little lover's squabble, now won't we?

I'm very, very glad to hear it.

Knight, you need to be open to more than just Gimbo/Me. If Gimbo is town, thats what is going to lose it.

[SpyreX]

Yes, we've got some serious lurkerosity going on, regardless.

[SpyreX]

It was only when Adel asked me for my opinion that I went back and looked at Open 79, and found out that in that game, the scums were the ones that started the mass-claim. However, this is a different game, so I don't think it's necessary to compare this game to another game.

Gimbo, we both know if that was the only reason I wouldn't be voting for you.

More than the massclaim, its the scumclaim. That gambit, in most setups, would be a total WIFOM that might work. In this one, I feel it is a much better setup for scum than for town to pull a stunt like that.

[SpyreX]

I will follow my lovers lead for the moment.

Unvote

Adel/SpyreX: what will you guys do tomorrow if I flip town?

It should be obvious. Look and build a case based on it. Right now I'm torn between Firestarter and Knight. I'll, of course, get into more detail as necessary.

- I don't like this attitude that if Gimbo's town, the town has lost. We're still 'allowed' one screw up before winning, and even if he's not lynched today, there's no reason we can't attempt to identify the other scum and lynch them just in case he is (insane) town. Choosing D2 lynches in advance is poor play (and quite frankly I suspect the people trying to do so) and if nothing else, pessimistic.

Nameless, if RIGHT NOW, the hammer went through and Gimbo flipped town, who would you go after?

[SpyreX]

@Adel/Spyrex...
I would very much like to hear either/both your takes on the situation we are in at present.
1. If Gimbo/SSF are not to be lynched, what are your alternatives?
2. If there are alternatives, what are your reasons?

1.) If Gimbo is not to be lynched, I'm going to be very, very sad. I dont want to play the WIFOM dance with it tomorrow too and, personally, if he's not lynched today I'm going to be very wroth. I'd mentioned before being torn between Firestarter / Knight, but my opinion has now shifted to Knight/Forbidden.

2.) Alrighty, here we go.

Knight:
Through his posts he has said being willing to vote for:
Firestarter/Nameless
Chelseafan/Chensi
Gimbo/SSF
SpyreX/Adel

Funny thing about that is, it leaves only ONE other group. So, if Knight is scum, I'm calling the Knight/Forbid/Harvey/Zeek faction.

Also, of course, there was the very poorly thoughtout plan regarding flea. I've explained that and if we need more, well I can.

This alone, of course, wouldn't have been enough. But then we've got some strange play by his partner as well:

Zeek/Harvey are only mentioned once (FoS) in all the posts.
She tells her partner she wouldn't endorse a vote on me (which is good and all, but)
She shows serious exasperation with Knight involving his plan (which, again, makes sense but)
But, the kicker, and this one (honestly) is what will make my scummeter go into the red:

If the town decides a Gimbo lynch is the best move, I am perfectly willing to revote him.

This statement, of course, rubs me absolutely the wrong way. It's not a matter of "the town" - if you have feelings run with them. Yes, right now I dont have a vote up for Gimbo but you can bet your bottom dollar its going back up there once we've had enough time for discussion - regardless of what the "town" thinks.

In this game the only person I'm willing to follow, to a degree, is my lover because she's smart and sexy... wait, no, its because I KNOW she is town. The only one. Aside from that I'm going to stick with who I think is scum and I'll fight it tooth and nail.

Following along doesn't help the town, especially in this setup.

[SpyreX]

Woo, a nice heavily defensive response.

Your PARTNER was the one who I really thought was scummy - however, when you piped in with the "I'll do what the town wants." It reinforced my feelings about your group as a whole.

I still think it's anti town to ignore the wishes of the town, even if you put more credence in what your lover says.

How is it anti-town to stop, what you feel, is a bad move by the town? Was it anti town for me to not want to claim even when the pressure was put on in such a scummy manner?

Considering, taking group aside, 50% of the people who would be the "town" are scum yes you're damn right I'm going to do what I feel is right and not what the town thinks.

If you really want me to put Gimbo back at L-2, it's fine, but if a lover pair suddenly jumps on Gimbo, there goes our discussion.

I don't CARE where your vote is. I just care that you put it there with your own backing and your own reasons. Taking the vote off Gimbo is fine if you're doing it to bolster discussion. Saying you'll put it wherever the town wants isn't. We dont have power roles, or any fancy tricks - just deduction and a vote. You're saying you'll give that away to the majority.

[SpyreX]

Wrong. there are 4 scum, 12 players. Taking aside your lover pairing, that's 4/10. 40% of the town majority is scum. However, I actually see your point since I didn't even consider these numbers.

Wow, I'm bad at math. But the point was there at least. I keep thinking there's only 10 of us because I'm really smart (and some people ARENT TALKING AT ALL)

Ok...actually, when you've put it like that, my consideration for the towns wishes were pretty stupid, and I can even see where they are scummy. I screwed up, and thusly am not playing well. I'll start working with what I feel...in which case, I feel VOTE: GIMBO!.

OMG BACKPEDALING KEKEKEKEKE

Just kidding, of course. I'm glad you see what I mean. You two are still large on the radar (especially because of your partner) but the fact you saw my point helps me some instead of fighting it.

[SpyreX]

In fact the only accusations I made during my summary were against Adel/SpyreX about how they BOTH kept bringing up the fact that in the last game it was scum who proposed the mass-claim - making me wonder if they decided before this game that they would oppose mass claims and just attack everyone who supports them, citing the last game.

We both have had other reasons as well, that just plays a part.

Adel mentioned how by not partitioning off into groups you leave room for the scum to screw up in the early stages before they've finalized how they are going to pair off (in the chance they didn't before the game started). Also, of course, by not announcing your partner it's easier to look for odder trends in voting.

MY problems with this plan involved Gimbo saying he was scum (this still hurts) and telling the town members to vote as a pair, period. Neither of these things I feel help the town and I'd like to think I've been pretty clear about that.

The fact it was brought up as some kind of amazing pro-town plan when, of course, the last time it was brought up was BY scum was, really, just icing on the cake of failure in it.

[SpyreX]

My replies to it, over and over, were because Gimbo was giving the vibe that part of his master plan is that announcing your lover was such a pro-town move. As its been proven, it wasn't and isn't.

I think, if ANYTHING, I've been far more apt to point out how the PLAN was scummy versus just the fact the lovers part was done by scum before.

[SpyreX]

I'm going to give this a proper re-read tomorrow, but as for now I'm going to make one of those AWESOME statements:

Personally, despite my partners train of thought, I want to see Gimbo lynched today. I think, as I've said over and over, this plan has far too much scum benefit for me to think otherwise. Furthermore, the playstyle and feel has not led me to believe this is town in any way.

However, if I AM outvoted, I WILL NOT vote for Gimbo tomorrow. I'm not letting this ridiculous WIFOM bite us tomorrow. If he lives today, he is going all the way. That means, of course, if he is scum then we damn well better hit the other pair tomorrow.

After my reread tomorrow(probably late), I will be putting my vote back on Gimbo. I, at that point, do not care if it is the hammer. It is happening.

[SpyreX]

^ Sorry, lover, it is WIFOM, but I see Gimbo as just too mad to be convincing scum. It was down to L-whatever on Gimbo but with only two pairs fully on and with Adel and Spyrex pushing but not voting. I needed more time to look at it so I removed my vote. I know it undercut your posts and I may rejoin you, but there are other suspects.

I've said, after my reread tonight, I'm putting my vote back there, hammer or not. I took it off to help with discussion, that is all.

[SpyreX]

I posted not long ago my feelings about them (Knight very scummy, forbban slightly scummy) Overall, I get a scummy feel.

[SpyreX]

Ok, my promised post. This might take a bit.

Regarding the game (my feelings in parenthesis) - this isn't a post by post of the game, but it will have a LOT of posts noted for information for name-matching.

Page 2:

SSK COPIES the quote from Gorrad in the first run of this game.
Adel questions it (funny thing is that her statement about people voting for their partner had already came true in the first day).

Synopsis:

Day 2 is the start, but not much happens.

Page 3:

Nameless agrees with it with the argument of simplicity for the town.
Forbid agrees with it with the argument of killing one mafia kills them all (I'm not sure what I think about this in retrospect - the reasoning)
I say not to claim due to an increased abilitiy to read voting patters and to look for scum slipups. I say it is inevitable though.
Adel sees no reason to claim day 1.
SSK says it makes sense.
SSF says it makes sense.
Nameless FoS's SSK/SSF and says that without claims there's more of a chance for mislynch (I dont like this much either).
Gimbo chimes in stating townies wont lie (sure), it forces the scum to split into pairs(sure) and is better for the town (not sold). HE then says that town pairs wont vote together without a massclaim (WTF).
Forbid agrees with Gimbo
SSF states loves shouldn't always vote the same way (GOOD).
Chlesea agrees and states anti-claim.
Adel plays the other side (what it would gain us)
Harvey Pew says the pairs will be much more linked (VERY TRUE - I like this a lot; even though its obvious, the fact it was said so early and matter of factly strikes me as a good mark).
Forbid agrees again.
Chelsea changes her mind on it due to Adels remark (This strikes me as almost too quick a change of mind)
Gimbo says he's at standby
NEXT Post, claims scum, starts with the WIOFM as such:

• 1.) If he's scum he's confusing the town (WHY would you do this)
  2.) If he's town he cant be lynched without scum votes (again, this would only take 1, not a whole mess)
  3.) He states lynching the lone-voter on him (In the situation above, this would work, but with a pair of two scums it sure wouldn't).
  4.) He says if the scums ignore this plan he's somehow town (WHAT)
  5.) He says that (not lynching him) we should random vote (WHAT) and then tomorrow it'll be 50/50. (GOD THIS PLAN HURTS MORE REREADING IT)

Synopsis:

Here we look into the eyes of the beast. Nameless and Forbid agree, but with different reasons; rereading I dont like Forbid's reasoing near as much as Nameless's. SSK and SSF agree with Adel very rapidly and dont say much aside from the agreement; again, I dont necessarily like the rapid agreement and not much being sad otherwise. Nameless FoS's the partially for what I said (good) but also for increasing mislynch (bad). Gimbo agrees with the BAD part of what Nameless said and Forbid agrees (VERY BAD). Chlesea's agreement and rapid switch in stance strikes me as odd. Harvey makes a valid, if kind of obvious point, but I still like it. Gimbo then jumps into the storm.

Page 4:

SSF asks if they just claimed scum.
Gimbo votes Chelseafan by his own rules (randomly?)
Chensi then claims saying he'll die (WHAT, in retrospect this is really weird)
Gimbo says they are 'lovers' because he doesn't know their alignment (Well, duh, why)
Chenshi says they are obviously town (WHAT)
Knight says all 4 are scum and votes with Gimbo for Chelsea (what - although if it is Gimbo/Forbid/SSF/Knight this play kind of makes sense)
Chenshi makes another useless post.
Knight changes his vote to flea (Why flea?)
Gimbo says Knight is being scummy (and based on his join date) but only HoS's him (again, the random on Chelsea is ok, but only an HoS on Knight for something he says is scummy)
I make the stantement Gimbo is insane and flea is shaking his head.
Gimbo FoS's most of the game (GOD)
Adel pokes a hole in Gimbo's plan and makes a statment about his random vote then votes for Gimbo(GOOD)
Gimbo's reply is a meta-read on Adel and a vote saying its not an omgus (P.S. It is)
Harvey says gimbo makes his head hurt but that he would unvote him if not for the message it would send (WHUT)
Gimbo pushes his plan again.
I make my first argument why Gimbo's plan is bad (GO ME) and vote for Gimbo. I also state, for the first time, if Gimbo is town we lose if he's alive on day 2.
Flea shakes his head (this could be for a million reasons)

Synopsis:

Gimbo keeps pushing his plan. Chenshi and Knight make very odd (bad) plays and Adel pokes some holes and one side of Gimbo's plan which I do the others. Not a lot of reads on other players. I dont like Harvey worrying about what the unvote might do; but I can -kind- of understand it with the importance of avoiding the mislynches.

Page 5:

Harvey says, even with some claims, that he wont claim and is leaving the decision up to his partner (Good)
I show my irritation some at how this is going.
Knight votes for Gimbo (What)
Gimbo says that he expects to get lynched and scums are going to be screwed day 2. Says all of us (most of the damn game at this point) is scummy for not following his lead. Votes for Knight because he's the noob out of the 3 of us voting for him (WHAT)
Gimbo tries to meta me. then multiposts on Knight.
Adel says she expected the scum to break before the game starts and to be the biggest proponents of a massclaim (I agree). She says today should be about lynching the scummiest person.
Gimbo says voting for the scummiest person defeats the purpose of lover pairs (WHAT) and that judging a pair makes it easier to get a read on them (So far, this game, thats sure not true).
I say Gimbo's plan helps scum more than town (Go ME)
Adel says, again the strongest proponent of a massclaim to be scum (I agree)
Chenshi makes another blah post (WHAT)
Nameless agrees with SSF about voting together (Good), agrees with my points on Gimbo (Good). Doesn't vote for Gimbo because of WIFOM reasons (not so good, but understandable)
Adel mentions a Nameless / Gimbo connection (based on the not-vote at this point in the reread I disagree).
Nameless mentions Adel picking a strange part of his argument to attack.
Knight thought it was weird 2 pairs claimed right away (true) and that it was a scum tactic to get the last pair lynched (sure). Says even if he's town he deserves to die for that (bad)
Adel says the HoS + Attack on her shows a connection (I can see it, dont agree at this point)
Gimbo says Adel is scum (wrong, woo)
Adel asks why he's not voting for her (good question)

Synopsis:

Then way Chen claimed doesn't make sense. Gimbo, again, spends most of this page focused on his plan and how those not following are scummy. Says Adel is obviously scum without explaining why. I, personally, like Nameless and Harvey here.

Page 6:

Gimbo votes for adel.
Nameless repsonds to Adel in a very calm manner (good)
Gimbo explains his vote: Knight is noob, I haven't given reads, so Adel is scum (P.S. all 3 of us are voting for him, so this is an amazing OMGUS)
Chenshi manages to look at all of the previous days and post one thing (Blah)
I and Adel tell him its OMGUS
Knight says no one in his group is voting for others in the group so they are scum (WHAT). Suggests voting for chelsea to prove flea is scum (WHAT). Doesn't want a lynch, but jsut to see if flea will move his vote. If he does, they're all mafia, flea is mafia trying to frame chelsea or is a worthless town. If he moves it, he's mafia or innocent with Gimbo (WHAT).
Gimbo says the plan is dumb (it is) asks Knight (who he says is a noob over and over) about me and Adel.
Knight says if we go through he reveals and the town wins tomorrow (not following)
Chelsea, of course, asks why they are lynching her to prove flea is town or not.
Gimbo and Chelsea have some dialogue (If Knight is right after this game is over I swear)

Synopsis:

This page is dominated by Knights "plan" - mostly by the parties involved he says are scum. Now, I dont agree with his plan but the interplay between them on this page is really off and I dont like it. In isolation, part of me could think Knight MAY be right in his call... and that scares me.

Page 7:

SSF chimes in to explain why the plan is bad.
Harvey says almost the same reasons right after (this is strange, but only 7 minute lapse)
Forbid claims with Knight and FoS's Namless for not revealing (WHAT - she just NOW did more than a few pages/days later) says is staying on chelsea because lover is as per Gimbo's instructions on page 3 (WHAT)
Gimbo shows the 3 pairs, says at minimum 2 scum are in the unclaimed (this strikes me as odd, but, as we'll see, if Gimbo is scum I think his partners have claimed at this point so, yes, he would be saying one of the claimed sets (but not both) is town). Calls a meta on me again.
Harvey says the FoS doesn't make sense. Says he's in favor of claiming but is leaving it up to his partner (I dont think he said he was in favor before this point, big uh oh).
Gimbo makes a post about the logic of his above.
SSF explains why it was not good (this is very interesting)
I tell Gimbo I am going to agressive (I've been) and the meta arguments and his OMGUS's aren't really doing any good (they aren't).
Chenshi loverfishes on Harvey (Bad considering other evidence)
Gimbo says nice (confused why he would like this)
SSF votes for chen (lover's confusion here?)
Firestarter says we shouldn't rush and take our time (duh, but good)
chenshi asks what's fishing (WHAT WHAT)
Nameless claims with Firestarter.
Forbid unFoS's nameless.

Synopsis:

Forbid, Chenshi and Gimbo all feel real bad here. SSF really throws a wrench in trying to direct his lover but, hell, that could be any alignment the way this is going. Harvey has two really strange posts in relation to everything else going on.

Page 8

Gimbo shows the breakdown, shows that only 4 are left, says its anti-town now to not claim (Blah). Says Adel isn't a town player. Asks what he would have to gain from this all if he was scum (its been explained). Says Adel isn't claiming because she's scum and it'll change her play (it's not and she isn't).
Knight votes for me because of my reaction to the massclaim (what).
Gimbo says that Adel and I are scum with most likely Nameless and Firestarter as our partners. Says that there's the lowest change of chelsea and chen being scum (very interesting).
Adel explains why not to massclaim and asks some questions to Gimbo and to SSF about his vote for chen for fishing when, well, look at Gimbo.
I ask why no one has said ANYTHING about me showing why this is a good scum plan.
Chelsea defends chen (of course) but argues with Gimbo's logic (good).
Forbid votes for Gimbo, tells Knight to as well - says LAL (weird, she's been following his plan most of the game).
Knight says he wants to vote me, and if I'm not maf, Gimbo is (Woow).
Gimbo says kill Adel or I first, then if we're town lynch him tomorrow (Wow).
Forbid refuses to vote for me because I'm not scum (yay).

Synopsis:

Forbid's play is weird when taken as a whole, but I can partially understand. Knight made a very bad play. The rest was mostly Adel / Gimbo going back and forth...and my opinons are known on that.


WELL, Its midnight and i've got 9-13 left. They'll be there tomorrow as well as some other notes I've got.

Vote: Gimbo

[SpyreX]

Ok, I'll finsih up my synopsis today.

DO NOT VOTE - FoS's and the like. We dont want to get to 2 and, if we're wrong, go boom.

If someone, while I'm gone, wants to show all the possible pairings, that might help.

[SpyreX]

Back into the fire.

Page 9:

Forbid says she's not going to blindly vote with her lover (good)
Knight says he's ok with lynching Gimbo THEN me (bad)
Forbid tells him this is bad. Votes Gimbo
Knight votes Gimbo, FoS's Firestarter (hmm)
I tell Knight he needs to be more open, he points me to his FoS (hmm)
Gimbo wants more discussion from the quiet pairs - I agree.
Harvey says his partner is gone and Nameless and Firestarter need a prod.
Firestarter's large post (213). Key points:

• He says Gimbo's scumclaim is bad, but the plan held more merit.
  He says that Adel and I are not giving reasoning (page 4)
  He bolds my statement "regardless of alignnment" like it's some magic tell.
  He, again, makes reference to Adel being scummy by not being a "team player"
  Says that Knight is an easy target for Gimbo.
  Says he has a very townish feel for Forbid / Knight.
  Votes for Gimbo

Adel asks Firestarter for who he thinks the scumpartners are.
Gimbo gives up, then immediately switches to not hammering him for more discussion.
Adel votes Knight until he answers who SpyreX's lover is.
Firestarter says who could be gimbo's partners.
Adel and Firestarter ask back and forth who they think Gimbo's partner could be.

Synopsis:

I really, again, don't like Knights play here. He gave an unexplained FoS as showing he's more open to not me the next day. Also, now espeicially considering Gimbo's flip - I'm really leery about Firestarter. His large post was focused on Adel and I and his repsonse listed everyone besides Harvey / SSK as partners.

Page 10:

Adel says she's looking at Harvey and Forbid, but they are both voting for Gimbo. Suspects a forbid / Knight / Gimbo / Flea scum setup. Says she'll wait before going through to lynch on Gimbo.
Knight says he's not moving off Gimbo.
Chelsea gives a very abbreviated feel of the game. Posts some suspicions on: Adel, Gimbo, Harvey.
Nameless posts his thoughts.

Further convinced Gimbo is scum based on his play (yes)
Doesn't like my statement that if Gimbo is town, we lose. (it was quantified)
Doesn't like forbid's post, says if Gimbo is town, we need to look at them (yes)

Votes for Gimbo
Gimbo replies talking about context and not wanting to be at L-1. Makes the following comments:

• Knight is opportunistic.
  Forbid switched her play in regards to Gimbo.
  Firestarter/Adel/I - What will we do if he flips town?

Forbid replies asking why would should let a liar live? Poshes on her reigning in a newbie member. (Very defensive tone - unnecesary if Gimbo was scum, odd unless she knew he was town).
Adel replies: If Gimbo is town, who is trying to set us up for his lynch (good)
Gimbo says that although Adel and I may be scum, he's more concerned with Knight/Forbid (woo Gimbo - something came of your plan).
Knight replies he may go Firestarter if Gimbo is town (No case though)
Forbid says she's not going to go for me, asks why Gimbo doesn't know he's going to flip town (odd, but)
I reply saying I'm torn between Firestarter / Knight for tomorrow if Gimbo is town. I ask Nameless who we would go after.
Zeek replaces in, comments on Gimbo's play being anti-town (yes). Votes for Gimbo.
Adel asks Chelsea if she's willing to lynch Gimbo again and again.
Zeek gives his rundown of the game:

• Mentions Adel and I talkign about what it would take for a quick lynch day 2 (oddly worded considering what we actually were saying)
  Says that Gimbo is trying to stop scumhunting (which I agree with)
  Mentions Chen not contributing (yes)
  Says that Knight might be setting up back-to-back townlynches (I could see it)
  Says that Adel is pushing the scum will be in favor of mass claim as a scum-WIFOM
  Mentions me agreeing with Adel about how the plan favors scum.
  Mentions the forbidden LAL

Synopsis:

Another day with some odd content. Knight not giving a reason, Forbids defensiveness and Zeek's quasi-push on Adel and I bother me in context.
I'm noticing the signal-to-noise ratio is increasing as well (actual discussion is starting to slide down)

Page 11

Firestarter asks Adel and I what our alternatives are, tells Chelsea and chen to vote, asks knight why he'd be willing to vote for his partner AND why he never answered Adel's question.
Gimbo says that Adel might be bussing Knight.
Nameless responds to Gimbo in regards to Nameless's points against him. Says that, if the hammer dropped he'd look at Knight/Forbid.
Chelsea says she'd vote gimbo, but not as a first choice (hasn't said who would be)
Forbid reponds to Gimbo, saying bussing doesn't make sense (to an extent)
Harvey comes in saying he'd been lynched in every one and been town in every one and was 2/3 for scumvoting (I'm really not sure what I think of this)
Chelsea's next post lays out with 4 pairs on the wagon what the scenarios might be leaving (C Gimbo is innocent and scum are on the bandwagon (this I think is true)
Adel makes the point that Chles could be scum without Gimbo, but Gimbo cant without Chelsea (GOD I WISH I SAW THIS)
Harvey doesn't think we hit both scum pairs day 1. Says he doesn't think Gimbo's play is a gambit (how). Unvotes. Says his vote on Gimbo was random up to this point (WOW).
Harvey then says it was initially random but he left it after the rush of anti-Gimbo sentiment..(WHAT) says that his play seems too risky for the scum to try.
Forbid unvotes to prevent the hammer. Says if the town decides its she's willing to revote. FoS's Zeek for painting people black (whcih I can agree with)
Gimbo posts a case on Forbid

Synopsis:

Things pick up some, thankfully. Ohh lord I wish I had seen what Adel said carefully. I think the Chelsea thing had some merit. Harvey's statements really sit oddly in rereading and, again, Forbid's play is a little erratic - although I do agree to some extent with her read on Zeek's post.

Page 12

I say why in my internal dialogue between Knight / Firestarter I've shifted towards Knight. Showing his voting record (willing to vote for everyone besides one group) his plan and Forbid's odd play including "voting with the town".
Forbid repsonds to previous posts by Gimbo.
Responds very defensively to my post.
I make a statement with some terrible math (but a point).
Forbid responds very positively to my post.
Gimbo and forbid argue, Gimbo asks what the case is, Forbid says its because he claimed scum and a lot of intuition (I dont like this).
Zeek says he just gave a recap (no, there was feelings in it) and says her response is reflective of her play on not how it was described. Zeek then points out some changes in Forbid's recation to Gimbo (good).
Forbid says Zeek is still showing bias (which I can see).
Zeek says his only accusations are on Adel and I, that Forbid's action show why he saw her play as erratic (again, I can see it).
I respond to Zeek's questioning of Adel and I, emphasizing how the plan itself was scummy versus just the fact it'd been done by scum before.
Nameless replies saying the mafia can still bus (true), Harvey's statement earlier was bad (true) and asking how Gimbo's plan was proven to be not pro-town (I haven't addressed this yet). Says he dislikes Forbid's posts 283/284.
Adel asks why people aren't voting for Chelseafan (Good), questions Chenshi and SSF's lurking (valid)

Synopsis:

This page is mostly Forbid and Zeek...and, to me, I'm given more questions about their play than anything else. Again, I'm irritated that no one paid attention to what Adel was saying (myself included since I wasn't active enough).

Page 13

Nameless comments on Adels plan saying it wouldn't work without a massclaim, that scum could be playing really risky and that Adel and I quickly unvoted as if we weren't willing to vote for him. Says its likely, but not certain Gimbo is town (With the flip, I REALLY dont like this).
Adel replies even handed to Namelesses points.
I say, having not reread close enough (sigh), that I want Gimbo today AND if he is not lynched today I will not vote for him tomorrow. I say, as I did, that when I am done I am voting him back, hammer or not.
Chelsea says she'd agree if it wasn't her getting lynched (BAD). Asked why people jumped off the wagon. Votes for Harvey
Harvey explains his sarcasm in his post about his record (good).
Adel says that she thinks Forbid/Knight are less scummy than Harvey.
Zeek asks why that is considering the flow of the game.
Harvey says he removed his vote because Gimbo is too mad to be scum. Mentions us pushing but not voting.
Zeek explains why Gimbo is scum.
Harvey says he kinda agrees. Chelsea agrees.
Gimbo asks what our take is on Forbiddan/Knight
I tell him to read up.
Adel asks for some vote research.
I post, like I said I would, I vote, like I said I would.
Adel hammers, like she said she would.

Mod makes a huge mistake and says Gimbo flipped town.

Synopsis:

Ohh, rereading this day makes me very irritated. I'm still not sure how, out of everyone active, no one made real positive mention of the Chelsea plan. She said she'd be for it if she wasn't the one being lynched - that bothers me. I'm also really, really bothered by the idea put forward that Adel and I would vote for Gimbo when it was said clear as day not only that we would, but WHEN we would, hammer or not.

So, with all that, my take on the game:

First off, the whole Gimbo situation:

After his claim, there was only two real options. Lynch him day 1, or (by not lynching him) tacitly say that he was town and not lynch him day 2. The day 2 lynch of Gimbo would have been the worst town move and, personally, based on Gimbo's play AND how the town played I did not want that to even be an option.

Now, why was it proven to be a bad ploy (the whole scenario):

The massclaim was inevitable but, by him pushing it that early, it eliminated one major area of scum mistakes in this setup by actively forcing them into two group. The scum part, of course, with a game without time before lylo could have been a very clever ploy; as I said, if we didn't lynch him day 1, we couldn't lynch him day 2.
The massclaim WAS inevitable. Doing it out of the gate was unnecessary.

But, to the crux of things:

Gimbo (7) - KNIGHT42, Firestarter, Nameless, ZeekLTK, forbiddanlight, SpyreX, Adel
Forbiddanlight (1) - chenhsi
Adel (1) - Gimbo
chenhsi (1) - somestrangeflea
Chelseafan (1) -
Harvey Pew (1) - Chelseafan
Not voting (1) - , Harvey Pew

Really, there's only a few options there.
1.) Gimbo was powerpushed by scum.
2.) Gimbo has 1 set of the scum on him.
3.) Gimbo has 1 scum on him / rest town (realized that, duh, it couldn't be an all town lynch).

I DO NOT think 3 happened. At all. There is scum on that wagon:
It was obvious by rereading that Adel and I were going to hammer when we did.
Gimbo was about the safest lynch choice for scum to sneak in on.

I DO NOT think 1 happened (but not as sure as 3):
If the town pushed for someone on that lynch-list (which is a decent probability) having all 4 scum there is too risky.
It was pretty obvious that he was going to be lynched (I'm still not sure why the Chelsea avenue wasn't persued at all).

So, that leaves us with 2. This, to me, is the highest probability.
We have:
Adel/SpyreX
Knight/Forbidden
Nameless/Firestarter
Zeek/Harvey(not voting)

Not on the votelist:
Chenshi/Chelsea

Now, I'm not doing anything rash today, with it being Lylo and all but the fact that no one moved towards Chelsea really, really gets me. The biggest reason why, right now, I'm not powervoting and ending this is that as it sits town also didn't see merit in it (at least tacitly).

I need a reread and some help from other people to clear my head. I've spent way too much time with this in the last 24 hours.

[SpyreX]

You say Adel's plan was a good one , which I admitted. I said I didn't like being lynched, I don't see why that's scummy in a game such as this where a mis lynch may cost the town victory. The fact NO One else seemed to find any merit in the plan is quit baffling if they believed Me/ches were scum with Gimbo, though I'm not saying everyone did, Knight certaintly seemed to think so early on.

It was the way you did it that made me flag. I've got no firm opinions yet. I want more reads before I come to a total decision. But, yes, as town I could actually see getting myself lynched to have a mostly confirmed town on lylo ESEPECIALLY in this setup.

Also you didn't cath Adel's plan? Surely you would have read the thread before you put a vote on Gimbo? I mean there was enough references to it, it's not exactly like it was that hard to miss was it? I find it quite hard to believe you missed the plan really.

I saw what she was saying, but I sure didn't put it together how important it was - I was focused on my reread. Yes, this was a huge mistake on my part.

Sorry about the she.

[SpyreX]

Why did this game just DIE?

[SpyreX]

That I can understand. If you wasn't ma baby, I'd be worried about you.

In retrospect, it would have been much more profitable overall to have moved to the Chelsea. I honestly dont get how no one mentioned it (yes, I am to blame as well for this but I said I was going to vote on Sunday and, by god, I wasn't going to not do exactly what I said)

[SpyreX]

Dear everyone. PLease come back and play the game.

Love,

Me

[SpyreX]

Well, three of you did, didn't you?

[SpyreX]

Personally, I have at least some reasons to suspect everyone. If I had to name a pair I thought least likely, it'd be Zeek/Harvey. But, I'm really, really not sure about them.

Going off the votes, like I said before, we have a few scenarios I'll go deeper into:

1.) A majority town push.
If it was a majority town push, which normally I would not entertain BUT because of Gimbo's scumclaim and play I could see then the scums are:
Zeek/Harvey/Chelsea/Chenshi

2.) A signle scum pair push.
Regardless of the pairing, in this case the correct lynch is Chelsea/Chenshi

3.) A full scum push.
Then its Knight/Forbidden/Namless/Firestarter.

YES I DID NOT ADD MYSELF AND ADEL INTO THIS PAIRING.

So, logically, my brain screams Chelsea/Chenshi. That would be the right call in two of the three setups AND the fact that no one said anything regarding their lynch yesterday is very suspect.

[SpyreX]

Ok, everyone, hold up a second.

WHY ARE THERE VOTES UP?

We need to talk before any votes get placed anywhere. We're approaching a classic standoff where only the town will lose.

I'm asking all of you, PLEASE, unvote before something bad happens. I think we've got two people already at the point where if everyone was active this game could be over.

[SpyreX]

Now, some responses to whats been going on:

Spyrex himself said that he was not gonna change his mind, as that would have made him look scummy.

No, I wasn't changing my mind because there was two answers to that gambit. Believing him to be scum and lynching him day 1 or believing him to be town and not lynching him ever. As there was no reason to believe he was town, I sure wasn't going to take the risk. I dont care a whit if I look scummy for changing my vote if I think its necessary.

As for the hammer business. I made it very clear I took my vote of for discussion and Sunday I was putting it back, hammer or not. If the town wanted more discussion or to pursue a different avenue it would have been simple to make it happen. There was a definite tacit agreement to lynch Gimbo because NO ONE ELSE moved their votes.

Now, as for the last page. What the hell guys. This much rapid response makes me think at least some of you were actively lurking and I dont like that one bit.

Now, making the assumption that pairs WILL vote together today, which they should.. I'm actually way more than a little nervous.

I've expressed my idea for voting for Chel.
Harvey / Zeek did
Forbid / Knight did
Firestarter / Nameless did.

This means, to me, that Chel is NOT scum - thats too many votes there fellas.

However, Chel's partner chimes in with a WTF vote on forbidden.

[SpyreX]

Ok, thats a little sense. Adel, sweetie, take your vote off forbidden please so that we dont get a scum push the other direction while we sort this through.

[SpyreX]

No matter how you add it up, there's 4 sets on Chen which is one too many and, of course, I am assuming myself to be town in my analysis because I know I am town.

Like I said no votes until we start some discussion.

[SpyreX]

I would, really, like everyone to chime in and say who they would vote for at this point WITHOUT voting. By that I mean everyone.

[SpyreX]

... what?

[SpyreX]

@Spyrex... What are thoughts on the previous pages events?

Well, the fact 4 pairs voted bothers me a LOT.
Harvey's vote irritates me
Chenshi's I'll vote for anyone but us really gets under my skin.

I dont know what I think about the forbidden vote at all. Yes, ultimately its a 50-50 shot but I think with some deduction we can definitely win it.

[SpyreX]

Ok, its officially really irritating that we have people that aren't posting at this point. It would be nice to get all the viewpoints.

But there was the "Dedicated hammer" from Sprex/Adel on Gimbo, I need to look at this closer.

It wasn't a stealth hammer, it wasn't anything like that. I simply said that, on Sunday, I was putting my vote back. Earlier Adel took her vote off and said she'd hammer with me (if I did). We did exactly what we said we would - if anyone had doubts about that lynch, including you, all you had to do was take your vote off if you wanted more discussion.

Now, that last few days before the lynch for me were crazy busy. I said I was going to do a full reread and, while I was doing it on Sunday at midnight I got to page 8 or 9 (I cant remember) and started falling asleep. So, I finished up that page and hammered like I said I would.

If I had gotten up to where Adel suggested the Chelsea lynch in my reread and thought about it I would have suggested it as a different course. As it was, I said I was voting and I was not about to do different.

By the time you find out who hasn't voted for them, they will be lynched if the remaining 6 place their votes, as you seem to see happening with your post. Thats a risky gamble, considering the stage we are at.

The only way town can win this is if all the town decide on a target. Scum, of course, wont keep their vote on scum so the scum-match of course would be the non-voters. However, in this setup, we're gonna get nowhere fast unless everyone is active.

And if both you & Spyrex were to refrain from voting until the hammer, which you did in D1, then another possible scum group could be Spyrex/Adel ~ + one of the voting pairs.

I'm not refraining from voting or waiting for a hammer. I'm not voting right now because we need more discussion before we move ahead with anything.

I dont like it the way you seem to be directing this, see who will vote for Forbidden/Knight, and give off the impression that your scumhunting, when its quite possible that you are scum with one of the voting pairs.
If Spyrex/Adel refrain from voting for Forbidden/Knight, then the other 6 players vote, that would be enough for a lynching.

How are we directing anything? Hell, I just wanted people to talk and thats what spurred all of this. This game has become complacent and that only helps the scum.

As for the other part, as I said before, ultimately the only way the town can win this is if the 6 of us that are town all choose and vote together. If we refrain from voting and Forbidden is scum, there will not be enough to lynch.



What bothers me the most about this whole post is the fact that everyone active jumped without real question, including voting, on Chelsea. Adel switches her vote to forbidden and is receiving more questioning from Firestarter than from Forbidden herself. As it sits, I really dont like this at all and its making me think that, probably due to Gimbo's play, the scum all sat on the safelynch.

If ANYONE had said something concerete about the Chelsea lynch day 1 I think we'd have this game done. It goes without question, of course, that scum would not have wanted to follow the Chelsea plan regardless of her alignment. I'm kind of in and out, but if anyone wants to read back about the events around when Adel suggested it to begin with, let me know.

[SpyreX]

Hey, guess what! That's my newbie game that done got ruined.

I'll chime in tomorrow (late). I've got too much paranoia going on right now and I'm exhausted from just getting home from work meetings. All in all, I could see cases for most anyone being scum but if, right now, I had to say who I thought was town...probably Zeek

[SpyreX]

Well, I'm back and over 2 pages. Wow guys, 1 day out and BOOM we've got some craziness here.

I'll be goin to bed after this, long day with the nephews, but I'll try to give my two cents on whats going on.

(BTW, ready for a noob question? How do you quote someone specific for future reference?)

It seems to me that compiling a list like this will only help the scum (either yourself or others) determine who the easiest town target is to push for a mislynch (or, at the very least, the hardest target - to stay away from). Maybe you and Fire aren't scum, but you and someone else are... now you see a couple players think Fire is town so you won't go after him because you think it's unlikely he'll be mislynched.

First off, I asked everyone who they would vote for as well - trying to pull as much data out of this so we can come to a concensus. Was that scummy of me?

This is just the other side, who is the one person you think is likely to be town.

This isn't us pushing a vote, this isn't us trying to shape and mold the minds of the town - it is just data. If, when its all done Adel lays down her case and people just start voting I would be seriously irritated. Discussion is going to be the key because we can't afford to make any sense.

SpyreX and Fire have been listed twice (and me once, but you left that off)... if both (or either) are scum then this list is going to be detrimental to scum hunting because people will see they are "most thought of to be town" and look elsewhere...

And the people listing ANY of us could be scum or be wrong, that IS a given. This data in and of itself is a discussion tool. All information is beneficial to the town when parsed directly.

Shy Guy, I'm glad you're in and your one post already is well above and beyond your replacement.. but I hate the fact you're here on lylo. We're going to need a LOT of discussion because a read on you is going to be important to this whole process as well (I'll get to why later in the post).

Well, I disagree that speculating is a bad idea because when you do it the point is to figure out what the scum might be doing, and once you figure out what they are doing you can figure out how to stop them.

We can speculate ourselves into not doing the right thing or into doing nothing though. Everything in moderation.

For example, I suspect that you might be scum and trying to set us up for a mislynch somehow with this "list", so I speculated about it so that others can think about it instead of follow it blindly into a possible trap.

See, its quotes like these that are why I think you are the most town right now. YES, bring it up because we shouldn't fall blindly into a trap - but, it is still potentially a very useful tool to have when all the data is there.

Spyrex has stated that Zeek is likely townie, but if this "clears" Zeek, does it also clear his partner, whome I consider to be more scummy than Zeek, hence clearing the love pair?

BTW, Spyrex is the lover from your pair who has recieved the votes for "clearance" as you put it, so no, you dont have as much "pro town karma" as you think...

I do not know Adels plan specifically, but regardless I like it for just this reason: I say Zeek is the single

person

I find townie but, in every damn group this game, there's at least one player who's play I can find scummy. Tomorrow, if you want, I can give a quick breakdown on that whole thing (but I will wait if it will derail what my partner is trying to do).

That's OMGUS like hell Adel. While Firestarter's post left me uneasy, your post doesn't make me feel any better. Explain. You don't have to reveal your pro town choice like he's demanding, but honestly, votes without reasoning aren't good play. (Also, I think if you clear Spyrex, you as such clear Adel, and she does have a point with her attempt. I want to see where it goes.

She can't set up a mislynch if we pay attention)

Exactly! Please, everyone, pay attention to this. Information is good. It always is.

Well, this is difficult. If you were alone, Adel, I'd be voting you in a heartbeat. But you are with Spyrex, who's been pretty pro town so far...good mindfuck :S. Unfortunately, since I do believe Spyrex is town, I'm kinda in the let's see where this goes before I decide what to do next mood. I guess continue...but let it be noted that you have made my view of your pairing a bit tarnished.

That's every damn group this game. I understand your feelings and, honestly, if I did not know my partners alignment I would understand your hesitation as well.

You just want to have a look at the list, work out some scheme, come up with a name that fits your scheme (as your choice) and then somehow set someone up as being the (mis)lynch. And since you only need 2/6 of us to vote with you (since surely your 3 scumbuddies will be right there saying "oh yeah, that's a great plan! let' do it!", you figure there will be two idiot townies that go along with you.

I do not understand moving on the attack like this. I am not pushing for votes and I do not think my partner is well. This is information, that's all.
Also, I dont understand the "idiot townies" bit: providing information isn't bad - however, I would be very, very suspect of anyone who just blindly voted based on it, whatever it is. There CAN NOT be bandwagoning at this point if we're going to win. It has to be a matter of discussion.

Heck, you and your partner just conspired to hammered a townie on Day 1 and now you expect us to just "trust you" with whatever you are concocting today without giving us any explanation at all?

What kind of conspiracy was there? Adel took her vote off, asked me to do the same and said she would vote back with me when I put it on. I announced, well ahead of time I would be putting my vote back on a specific day. No one on that wagon moved and, if you think we are scum which is what you've been eluding to that means that at MINIMUM four townies sat there with their votes on before we hammered. Not moving the votes knowing a hammer was coming is, implicitly, agreeing with the lynch. It can be a conspiracy if its laid out to everyone exactly what is going to happen.

And your whole "Chelsea clears Gimbo thing" - you keep bringing that up as such a "great idea" but do we all forget that you admitted to Nameless that it technically wouldn't even have cleared Gimbo if we did it?

For this to be a "great idea" you have to assume two things at the beginning:
1.) Adel said she was going to vote when I did.
2.) I was going to drop my vote (which at this point is two votes) and hammer if necessary at the time I said I would.

With those things in mind:
1.) Only one group did not have at least one member voting Gimbo.
2.) The hammer was, in fact, poised.

If Gimbo was scum, his partner could not possibly vote for him in some kind of gambit - the hammer was too looming for that to be a real avenue. In fact, they had to somehow remove a vote.

There was only one group NOT voting for Gimbo, Chelsea and Chenshi. Therefore, they could really only be the potential scum partner.

Hence, to test Gimbo, lynching the only group not voting for him would have been a valid choice. Of course it would not have totally cleared him but everyone else had voted and to keep their votes on like that would have taken iron-hard guts. So, the lynch of them would have, for all intents and purposes, cleared Gimbo and given us a better position on today.

Also, as an aside, I made my standpoint on the Gimbo issue very clear: his gambit left only two options. Believe him to be town and not lynch him or remove the gambit and lynch him day 1. A Gimbo Day 2 lynch was never a real possibility. I did not want to take the chance with this setup the way it is because yes, although risky, if they were scum and didn't lose off the bat the chances of success became much higher.

But, honestly, after this last post I dont know what to make of you at all Zeek. This really seemed like attacking for the sake of attacking and bringing up the Gimbo issue was, from very early on, going to be a huge flag on Day 2 for me.

I want to see the fruits of Adels work before ANY kind of wagon gets moving in any direction. We still have a good shot at this (far better than 50-50 in my opinion) if we use all the information at hand and move from there.

Night all.

[SpyreX]

No one told me how to quote names. Boo on you all.

And when Adel gets back to us with her conclusions, should we be basing our discussion around who she thinks is Scum.. only?

Of course not. That would be bad town play to just follow anyone at lylo when none of us are confirmed. It does serve to give us another source to look at for potential matchups, etc. I said it before, I'll say it again: I would be very, very suspect of anyone who just followed along with whatever her final analysis is.

I believe I have a pretty good read on this game and have narrowed down who the scum are, and so I personally would hate for us to lynch quickly without at least allowing me to share my insights.

I really doubt there is going to be a quick lynch, but I wholeheartedly agree. I want to see your analysis before anything rash happens.

I believe this listing of "cleared" groups by Adel is an information gathering attempt by her with a two-pronged purpose. She wishes to determine which groups she should not bother attempting to mis-lynch, and she also wishes us to (hopefully) enter a situation where one or both halves of the scum group is cleared, and us attacking that group later will be criticized heavily by her as hypocritical. I think that clearing anyone at any point in this game is foolish.

No one is "cleared" - I said when I made my contribution that my clearing was very hesistant. This game, for me, I've seen reasons why almost everyone could be scum at some point.

@Shy Guy - why SSK? Now, I've said I thought Zeek was the most town (which, currently, I'm having some reservations about), but I dont see a whole lot in Mafia's 5 whole posts (two of which are before the game even started) that make me really get a town feel. Also, I thought Harvey was very town early on but his play become more erratic as it went and that vote early day 2 really bothers me.

Now, as for Adel - I'm seeing that a lot of the questions about us are coming from her play. Honestly, I can understand that. Before the game started in our little chat she sent me the link to the first game. I didn't read the OP and just delved in. About half way in I was CONVINCED she was scum - I even mentioned it to her. I thought she was scum for just the same reasons a lot of people think she is now. Although I'm not shouting "meta, meta, meta" take a read of that game as well. Maybe it'll help shed some light on this.

@Adel - you've missed two people I think on the list. Harvey and Firestarter both chimed in saying I'm the most town.

Who are we missing from the list? I think thats damn near everyone, right?

[SpyreX]

Sweet. Eldarad is obviously town. Thanks.

[SpyreX]

That's a sad commentary on the quality of town play in this game, if true -- that a neutral looking person is the most town-like because they haven't looked scummy. I disagree at least where MafiaSSK is concerned, and will endeavor to explain why when I get a chance to do a more thorough post.

Yep, every group has had some seriously scummy behavior. That's what is, partially, making this hard. There's no one group I can look at and say "yep, they're playing like solid town." I, personally, would like to think I've done what I can to help and in this setup thats discussion.

As you said, during Gimbo he championed caution but eventually made sure the lynch happened. It seems that his actions conflicted with his words there, in the end -- he looked good for defending Gimbo, the easy target, and then proceeded to lynch Gimbo, the easy target.

Yes, I championed caution - I championed discussion. The more the better. You need to show me where I defended Gimbo because sure as hell I thought his play was scummy and I thought he was scum enough to, of course, make sure he didn't make it to day 2 where, as I've said a million times, he could not be a lynch target.

Today he is encouraging discussion yes, but the main vote I saw him criticize was Harvey's vote on Chelsea -- who according to me would be his scumpartner. If I can argue persuasively for this, it would only follow that he'd want us to discuss voting his scum partner so he could steer us to lynching someone else.

After Zeek's very agressive attack on Adel coupled with Harvey's erratic behavior day 1 and that no-explanation vote day 2 bringing what could be one step closer to town loss, YES I am going to bring that up. I said I "cleared" zeek but that was tentative then and its become more tentative since.

As for the other half. How can I steer anyone? Hell, I dont even steer my partner much - she's been doin her own thing most of this game. I think I should be flattered that you think I'll have this much effect on the overall consensus of the town. I say discussion makes sense because well, discussion is going to give us the best chance to win this game.

If my hammering of Gimbo is going to be the great point in which the crux of this is brought up I am going to be sad. Hell, if I was truly a prophet day 1 and this goes down the way its shaping up to I am going to be sad.

But, I look forward to your analysis. Hopefully others start chiming in more too.

fixed quote tags. Don't put spaces after the "=" - mod

[SpyreX]

Sigh, screwed up my quotes again.. teach me to try and learn new things.

[SpyreX]

My concern with Spyrex is the actual commitment to voting Gimbo, while leaving room for discussion, hammer or not.

Can you explain the concern, please?

[SpyreX]

Fair enough. I'm willing to wait for Adel & Shy Guy to do whatever they're going to do.

[SpyreX]

Firestarter and Harvey right after nameless did. 414/415 respectively (both on me)

[SpyreX]

Does that mean we're just missing Chen?

[SpyreX]

*facepalm* (And that goes for everybody else bringing up who hammered too.) There was seriously nothing wrong with that hammer, and it was no more due to Adel/Spyrex than anybody else who knew it was coming and remained on the wagon. Hammering somebody acting as scummy as Gimbo was, after the all the discussion we did have, not a scummy action. Really! [/I think I'm developing a pet peeve here.]

Lord, this alone makes me want to ditch my beautiful partner and get a new one. The business with the hammer, as is apparent from my posts, really drives me nuts. I'm still waiting for a real rational reason why that was scummy.

I even typed out "I wouldn't be surprised if you try to tell us you think Chelsea is the most town player and then try to say your whole case against him was crap and you are going to claim you were just saying that to trick/trap people like you did by attacking MoS and then suddenly turning on everyone who followed you in the MoS game".

Was it really that much of a surprise? I figured her response was 50-50 either going to be Chelsea or Forbiddan. After my initial post on the day discussing it the fact that 4 groups had at least one member vote for it was a huge tipoff. His reactions to everything also, well, made me think of them positively.

Would it kill anyone in this game to to use HoS in LyLo?

I endorse this message. I dont like any of the votes up right now (including my partners) - I also REALLY dont like someone being at 2 votes already my partner or not.

I'm waiting for both Adel's conclusions and Shy Guy's statements.
In the next day or so, I'm going to give another read of today and see if anything jumps out I've missed.

[SpyreX]

Looks like its megapost time. Whoot whoot.

I dont even know where to begin with this.

@Shy Guy - you say yourself that the majority of the reason you suspect us (and why you cleared SSK) is in relation to the massclaim issue early on day 1.

Before Gimbo started the claim chain, I said:

Its not all that hard to see reasons not to claim. Voting patterns become much more interesting to analyze without a mass-claim not to mention it would be much easier to catch slipups in the mafia voting if they dont break into partner pairs.

The claim IS inevitable (probably at L-1) but there was no real reason to push it this way this fast. Why play the same game the same way twice?

See, even in rereading, I stand by that. Even now, with it being brought up as an issue, I stand by it. I think that being able to look for ties in voting patterns with a massclaim would have led us to a whole different avenue of information. I would have had a whole different look at some people who's behavior I feel is scummy if I was not influenced by their partner - the elements in this situation are not homogeneous and I think that there would be something to be said in being able to review them separately.

I assumed, as I said, the claim was inevitable. Why not see what happens before it instead of just pushing into it? Its not like when the partners became known that it wouldn't be possible to reread the game and apply the new knowledge to the events that happened before the claims - however, the inverse isn't possible (which is what we got).

As for my one - in your list:

Just kidding, of course. I'm glad you see what I mean. You two are still large on the radar (especially because of your partner) but the fact you saw my point helps me some instead of fighting it.

The fact she saw my point means, simply, that I felt she was trying to help the town. I said, they are still large suspects to me partially because of your replacements play and, well, they still are. However, not fighting a point and going "ohh I see what you mean" is the kind of discourse I expect more for a towny then from a scum.

Overall - (OMG ARE YOU READY FOR SOME EASY TRYING TO MAKE CONNECTIONS BETWEEN CHELSEA AND I)

Reading your notes, more than anything, makes me believe you went into this with an agenda.

Between Zeek and Harvey you found.. 4 posts worthy of a + or -
Between Firestarter and Nameless you found 6.
With me, you found 1 thing out of everything I said worth a + or a -
Chelsea and chenshi with 6

So, in Adel's posts alone, you found more worth note than any other set of partners in this game? Hell, you almost found enough there to equal everything else you found.

You built a positive case on someone based on 21 words he said.
You built a negative case on someone based on 13 words he said.

It really seems to me you came in thinking we were going to be scum and looked for reasons to back it up.

Ohh, and one other big thing that was brought up here AGAIN that I'll mention again:

-p344 "I'm so pissed at myself for hammering that I'm having trouble getting back into this game. I really should've insisted on the chealsa l-ynch." why hammer so vacalierly then?

My partner and I both were very clear with what was going to happen. When she unvoted she said she was voting with me when I did. I said I was voting exactly when I did. So, I'm not seeing why this keeps getting brought up as scummy.

Well, thats half of what I was waiting for - I'm looking for Adel's now. As for Zeek:

Adel admits that lynching Chelseafan would not be certain to clear Gimbo.

You're absolutely right there. It isn't

certain

but it would have been as certain as we could be.

[SpyreX]

Then SAY something. Weigh in on this game.

[SpyreX]

Ohh (OMGUS) if I was asked who I thought were the scum after this revelation, it would be Shy Guy/Forbidden/Zeek/Harvey.

Zeek's attacks have been questionable, Harvey's play has been erratic (including the vote today), Shy's synopsis really speaks an agenda AND Knights play was bad AND as I said before the only group he wasn't willing to vote for happens to be Shy Guy's who, oddly enough, cleared Zeek through SSK's play and forbidden I think has played a decent game but there has been enough spots that make me wonder.

But, SpyreX, you cleared Zeek - Yea, I did, and I think I was wrong as became very apparently after the fact. I was always very hesitant about it.

The only reason I am not voting is because now isn't the time yet. It is time for more discussion.

[SpyreX]

Now, you wanna know what I think might be an interesting combination? SpyreX/Adel/Zeek/Harvey. I mean, right now, it seems that you all are going to great lengths to distance from each other. I mean, it's just a feel given the way you are countering the attacks.

Zeeks attacks have been very bad on Adel.
Harvey's vote and lack of real input today has been very low quality.

I am not distancing myself from them. I'm waiting for my partner to finish their data and give a final post then I'll go into it.

If you think its the 4 of us, who would you vote for?

What do you think about what I said about Shy Guy's analysis?

[SpyreX]

What do you mean very bad? Damaging or weak? Because weak furthers my point. Harvey, I agree with. I'd like to see him post again.

His cases, to me, seem to be both weak and parroted on other comments brought up and, of course, are focusing on the hammer fiasco which, I've brought up time and time again as it not being scummy (it WOULD have been scummy if we said we were going to hammer at X and did not do it).

[SpyreX]

Sigh, learn to preview before posting, woo.

Um, that's entirely incorrect and a straw-man. The majority of the reason I suspect Adel and ergo you is how she treated Chelseafan and Gimbo.

It adds complexity where there need be none.

Not massclaiming off the start does not mean that it would not happen. Having the ability to reread without preconceived connections WOULD have been a good thing.

. I think there are a number of recurring themes in her posts that paint her as scum. First is her opposition to mass claim. Without meaning to offend anyone else playing, I'd say Adel is relatively more experienced at mafia than most others in this game. She knows that information gathering is at the crux of playing mafia -- indeed she is attempting to gather information now about who people are not willing to (mis)lynch. While this latter form of information gathering allows the scum to narrow down who to target (and by claiming last Adel set herself up to defend Chelseafan), she should have known that mass claim is the pro-town strategy here. Her resistance and opposition to it, and unsupported claims that scum are likely to be the strongest proponents of mass claim is preposterous. I can forgive thinking mass claim might be bad of most players in the game, but not Adel. I know that she knows better than that -- as I explained earlier re: MafiaSSK, mass claim makes game simpler to analyze for town, and for town, a game more simple to analyze is a game more often won.

Granted, not all of the points against her are strong --

many are from her opposing mass claim

-- but even being generous in the points I'd remove, she still has a preponderance more against her than anyone else. In addition, there are a few recurring themes that make me think she is scum.

Every BIT of that is in reference to Adel's stance on massclaim. That, of the three paragraphs you stated on Adel is the largest and, for the most part, says the most. You saying the last is the "most damning" does not change that this is a huge part of your argument. You say so yourself.

I'll start off by explaining why I evaluate MafiaSSK as the most townlike player: his treatment of the mass claim issue.

Your other two points are intertwined. You are saying by pushing Gimbo (the easy lynch) and bringing up the idea of Chelsea but not pushing it Chelsea is scum and Adel is scum.

Two questions.

1.) How active was Adel in pushing the Gimbo lynch after the idea of lynching Chelsea came up?
2.) Why is it only Adel suspect for this and not anyone else who didn't entertain this plan?

Did you not read the explanation that accompanied my notes? I explained why this is so, and added several other qualifications about how the notes should be read. Are you ignoring my explanation purposely to make me look bad, or out of ignorance?

Yep, I'm ignorant. Caught me. Red handed.

As promised, I will now include my full notes in reading the game. I do so not without some trepidations: I realize that not all my points will make sense to you, and that there are some you will disagree with. These are my notes, my initial impressions, my rough draft if you will. You'll notice, for instance, I didn't discuss Harvey Pew, because in reading back over post 70 didn't strike me nearly as forcefully as it did initially. You'll also note that there are some other negatives and positives I didn't bring up. Again, treat that accordingly.

Yes, I read it. If these are your initial notes of your first read through, why are you not doing as many +'s and -'s as you could? Your initial notes are focused on Adel by any interpretation and, for an initial read, that makes me think that you came in with an objective in mind.

I certainly did not build a case on Adel based on 21 words, it is based on a holistic analysis of Adel's gameplay. If you are referencing chenhsi, yes he said very little this game, and very much of what little he said was suspicious. How is it unreasonable to draw conclusions from 3 of his 20 his posts?

The fact that you built a negative case on someone on so little - and not calling it a lurking case which is, at heart, what it would have to be bothers me. Why not a case on me or Chelsea if you're so sure we're scum? Why build on chenshi who has the least amount to offer either direction?

Again, I'd like to understand why you believe this conclusion. You admit I found 13 posts against Adel, and haven't really challenged anything yet except the mass claim posts. If I was just looking for reasons to back up thinking you were scum, it seems I found them in abundance. Also, if I were scum, why would I target you as opposed to any other pair? Surely there are others out there I could mis-lynch -- why do you posit that I decided before even reading the game that I came in thinking you were going to be scum? Do you think that I am town who came in thinking that you were scum and looked for reasons to back it up?

How many of your OWN notes relating to Adel are in reference to the massclaim issue?

How many of the other notes relate to the hammer and Gimbo push?

Why target us? I think I mentioned that waaay early on in the game: If Gimbo is town I expected the town to lose because we would be put up the next day.
Gimbo's announcing he is scum and me calling BS on it made us an easy target.
Disagreeing as vehemently about the timing of the massclaim makes us an easy target.
Dropping the hammer makes us an easy target.

The way it sits, I sure dont think you're town. I think you are scum looking for an easy target in lylo.

Adel clearly said to the effect 'I'm going to abandon everything I said about clearing Gimbo and lynch him anyways.' Stating it clearly and following through on it does not make it a townie action.

Do you think the action itself was justified? If so why?

Sigh.

Before that Chelsea thing even came up, Adel took her vote off, asked me too and said she'd vote with me.

I said I was voting when I did and I did. So, if you're going to say that situation is one of our faults, it is mine - but, again, I did exactly what I said I was going to do and the focus being on us and not everyone else who let their votes sit there doesn't make sense. If we lose this game, every town member on that lynch is culpable for it - not just the hammer.

[SpyreX]

Gah, you did it AGAIN.

I have more thoughts than I wrote in my notes, and certainly there is more evidence than that which I brought up in my case. I was trying to explain everything I was thinking while being as concise as possible.

Then just disclose them. You say its full disclosure with your notes, so I read it as such and it paints a very narrow picture. Say what the rest of your feelings are.

[SpyreX]

So, took a second to do a little grouping math. Even added us in so others can use it as well to look at what possible pairings are.

On my set, I'm going to do some crossouts and why.

Adel/SpyreX
Shy Guy/Forbidden
Nameless/Firestarter
Zeek/Harvey
Chenshi/Chelsea

AS/SF
AS/NF
AS/ZH
AS/CC
SF/NF
SF/ZH
SF/CC
NF/ZH
NF/CC

Ok, first set of crossouts: I am town.

SF/NF
SF/ZH
SF/CC
NF/ZH
NF/CC

Second set of crossouts: The fact that early on every group was willing to vote for chelsea (one member, for this, I am including as two) makes me logically think they are town.

SF/NF
SF/ZH
NF/ZH

So, really, I'm personally left with three pairs. My ordering chance of likelihood s as such:

SF/ZH
NF/ZH
SF/NF

This is where I am at in my thinking at this point. I am taking a little break from this game as I can feel myself getting a little heated up, though. Back in an hour or two.

[SpyreX]

... Its not the assumption everyone is going to make, but it's the assumption that each group sure as hell will make.

I said my personal thoughts on it, that is all.

I'm honestly surprised that that was the part of my analysis (not me clearing Chelsea/Chenshi) that you made a statement about.

[SpyreX]

These latest posts by SpyreX confirm to me that it's Adel/SpyreX/Chelsea/chenshi, especially that last post where he just "crosses off" Chelsea/chenshi for no reason...

Second set of crossouts: The fact that early on every group was willing to vote for chelsea (one member, for this, I am including as two) makes me logically think they are town.

Nope, no reason there.

I was really wrong in thinking to clear you, thats for sure.

One more thing I forgot to point out from Day 1 - Adel got really defensive when SSF voted for chenshi for "fishing". Adel tried to deflect it back on Gimbo, and when SSF said that "Gimbo wasn't being subtle, so it's not fishing" Adel still continued to fight SSF's vote on chenshi until it was removed.

Show me this "continuing to fight"

Of the three I have left, I was really tottering between Shy Guy (because his analysis) and Zeek (because of his transparent attacks).

I'm not teetering anymore, fo so'

Vote Zeek

[SpyreX]

When my very own lover ignored everything I said and voted for him, I impulsively said "fuck it" and hammered. I lacked the courage and commitment to stick with the case I felt to be right, I was worried about how much of a fool I would look like if we lost this game because Gimbo was scum and Chlsea was town. Having never played with Gimbo before, I didn't understand why he would try to cause that much chaos if he were town.

Why did people disregard my case for lynching Chelsea instead of Gimbo? It seemed so clear and logical to me, I was left feeling really frustrated by how nobody adopted it. Nobody did, not even my lover?

If we lose this game because we get hammered, I apologize in advance for that. I got too busy and was too tired to finish my analysis and hammered when I said I would. It was obviously a good case and it should have been taken up.

As it is, my vote is down. I'm interested to see on whats going to happen from here.

[SpyreX]

I dont know if its a mistake or what, but I sure do not agree with what I said earlier based on the last few pages so.

[SpyreX]

@Shy Guy:
Did you really modify one of my statements to clarify something I didn't say? I read it the first time, I read it the second time. I didn't omit anything and, frankly, the fact you did that irritates me to no end.

So, you're in the same boat I am - you see one person in a group being scummy and the other not. However, you're saying they must be scum whereas I have, all game, went the other direction. Thats the main difference.

Do you see what I'm saying about Adel's play? Once Chelsea came up she did not push the lynch. I dropped my hammer and she went along as she said she would instead of fighting it.

If you're saying the massclaim isn't a big issue yet half of your points are on it, how is it not?

As for the others, if the other half is that, and I've talked about the hammer... see what I'm getting at here.

As for my three points:
1.) It would be easy to say that scum pushed the Gimbo lynch hard knowing he was scum.
2.) Arguing with what the towns sentiments are often, as came up here, gets painted as scummy.
3.) Dropping the hammer has been brought up as scummy actions by us already.

Why not just push those? Because you've declared a full set of scum AND if you can make a tie to push your case regardless it's better in this setup.

Adel should have had the backbone to stick to her guns if she is town. She should not have been cowed by early indifference and resistance, she should have pushed the plan she claimed to believe in. There was no reason to settle for a Gimbo lynch nearly as early as she did, and she shouldn't have said she'd vote whenever you did.

I dont mind her voting with me.

I

should have finished my read before voting.

Wow, and accusing me of OMGUS:
1.) Your analysis seems weighted as in you were looking for a result.
2.) Zeek's attacks on Adel have been thin (see his lastest post) and have parroted other objections. Not to mention even in his Day 1 posts like I said before he starts painting a case to push today on us.

Ohh, and all the way back on Day 1 with your awesome predecessor I called this exact scum pairing then. But, hey, that must have been some in the future omgus. Who knew?

@Adel -

Sorry, after the last few pages Zeek no longer would be who I cleared at all. Lets let the OMGUS rein and I'll say, like I did in my crossing off, I would clear Chelsea since EVERY ONE ELSE was willing to vote for her.

As for your upcoming questions: I'd vote for either Zeek / Shy Guy.

But, I'm taking a long break from this game. I might look in but I'm refraining from posting for a bit because I'm feeling myself get irritated at a damn game and I dont like that feeling one bit.

Vote's staying. I'll check back in tomorrow.

[SpyreX]

I'm back, after takin some time away.

A few things. As for the whole me and Adel with the hammer. Adel's post 32:

hey, SpyreX, would you mind unvoting? We can hammer together in 48 hours or so.

Thats why I thought Adel was going to hammer with me. Now, after I said I was dropping my vote, I assumed it was going to be both of us, and it was.

Adel -- to answer your question, your partner's opposition to your plan seems to be the strongest you encountered, and it was not particularly a long post, just opposed to your idea. I seem to be seeing only one other long-ish opposing post. Do you think it is fair to say you gave up rather quickly, and easily?

Was I opposed to it, or are you talking about the fact I hadn't really seen it as my being opposed?

I've said this before but this is BAD LOGIC because the mafia are still going to carefully bus and lie regarding their intent, so unless somebody is actually involved in a lynch we can not be particularly certain they were willing to do so at all.

That's fine - I gave my simple thought process. That's all. I thought the rapid succession was off and I noted it as such. So, they are currently off my list, but I dont expect anyone else to. (As I said to forbidden, thats why I was surprised she made reference to the other part when I said it).

@Zeek

Good lord. You want to know why I changed my opinion on you.

Early on Day 2 you made very calm statments. 406-407 for example. Your suspicions of us, even there, didn't really bother me (in the sense of making you seem scummy).

Then, I say I think you're the most town because, at this point, it really seems like you're trying to do what you can and you're open to avenues.

Then you ask Adel why she hasn't provided a name, which is fine.

THEN, you extrapolate this to be us figuring out someone to mislynch before the information is even there. This is where I start to get bothered some by your play.

Then, Firestarter starts pushing with your case about validity...

From this point on, I dont think I've seen you mention anything but Adel and you have been attacking AND the cases are weak.

Post 450: You say this is some scheme copied from her 540 game. That we're going to look at the list of nonsuspects and, from it, pull a name and two "idiot townies" are going to along to us. You then start attacking her play all game with lots of sarcasm quotes.

My reply to some of your questions in 450, as far as I can tell, were just ignored totally.

Your next post, 482: I almost gave this exact example (yet you didn't) and you're saying the case on lynching Chelsea day 1 was crap (I dont think it was a case as much as a logic exposition)

Right after, you vote for her because she's pissed that Chenshi is M.I.A to help us mislynch?

Shy Guy then posts putting suspicion on us.

You, not long after, come out more agressive (497). Again, you extrapolate a situation where you've pre-assumed we are scum and what we would do. This includes saying we have never said why mass claim (out of the gate) was a bad idea (P.S. I said why it would make sense not to more than once).

You then in the next post say that lynching Chlesea would not be certain to clear Gimbo, but willfully leave of the latter half (near-certainty) which is the whole idea. You then toss in that Adel wants to lynch Gimbo because he'd be awfully sure Gimbo was town with a little hmm.

When you next chime in, you're now certain because I crossed them off for "no reason" - disagreeing with why I personally cross them off isn't no reason. You then push ANOTHER odd claim from Adel and again ignore my questions about it.

Then, 549 (we're getting to present) you make another statement about my intentions followed up as an expose' into my thought process which, of course, is wrong and, again, is built around the assumption I am scum.

So, you want to know why I changed my vote? Why, even though with my questions about Shy Guy's play I chose you?

1.) You started out fairly open before I said I cleared you.
2.) EACH TIME someone else came in with something to say about us you started pushing more agressive and single-minded.
3.) Your "ideas" about our thought-process are built in entirety around us being scum. You are going from that and building what is, to me, a very weak case because you're pushing us to be scum.
4.) You have ignored any question posed to you about some of the things you've said by me AND, as far as I can tell, ignored any explanation given.
5.) You started out thinking it might be forbidden/shy but dropped that immediately once others posted doubts.
6.) Each attack has been more vehenement, more extrapolated and more single-minded than the last.

There is no reason for a towny to be this focused in lylo. There is every reason for scum to bus when they see others bringing up concerns to try and fuel those flames.

So, no, I dont care that you changed who you were suspicious of. I care about the methods and the timing of all of your attacks on Adel.

Hope that clears it up for ya.

[SpyreX]

God, I'm about to get all feelings up in.

Out of everything I just said, only my partner chimes in with anything and thats on a bit of it? Lordy be, should I just start lurking for pete's sake.

[SpyreX]

^ Hi Nameless, how you doin. Maybe thats what I've said after the turn of events, myself.

However, only one or two that seemed to attack strongly and directly the plan of lynching Chelseafan -- and that the strongest of these came from you, her partner.

Are you talking about when I said:

Personally, despite my partners train of thought, I want to see Gimbo lynched today. I think, as I've said over and over, this plan has far too much scum benefit for me to think otherwise. Furthermore, the playstyle and feel has not led me to believe this is town in any way.

Was that my strong opposition?

[SpyreX]

I'm not sure how you're reading that. It's the methods, the timing and the target. Coupled with that, as a much smaller note, is the fact you are focused specifically one one person.

[SpyreX]

I claim that once there was other people attacking Adel, your attacks stepped up and your suspicions on forbidden fell to the wayside.

[SpyreX]

These attempts to look into my thought process are frankly, becoming ridiculous.

Because at this time I say forbidden is my top suspect and the only reason I'm not voting him is because I am still leary of you and Adel... you probably see this as "oh ok, all we have to do is make Zeek less suspicious of us and he'll vote for forbidden"

No, I saw this as: "Zeek is looking for scummy behavior in multiple people, but isn't placing an ill-thought out vote because he's looking for more information"

Or because you're trying to get me to drop my suspicions of you and hopefully focus on forbidden.

How often have I brought up forbidden today? In fact, as I said, of the 4 of you I think are scum she is the LEAST scummy of the bunch.

Especially given his response. Prior to asking, I was trying to figure it out myself, and I couldn't come up with any pro-town use for this list. All I could come up with was ways it could help the scum, so his non-response of "why are you getting nervous? the point is to collect data to out scum" also set off red flags because I had already determined that this list was not going to help the town and here he is claiming it will "out scum".

On the SAME PAGE Adel explains why she's doing what she is. You, as per usual, disregard it and give another "You are scum and this is why you are doing it." statement.

Yeah... and? This makes me scummy how?

AGAIN, you have made the basic assumption that:
1.) We are scum.
2.) People are going to blindly follow whatever Adel says

And I wasn't saying the case on Chelsea was crap, I was saying he was going to tell us it was with something like: "see, I made the case on Chelsea Day 1, but I really didn't believe it. I wanted to see who would follow me and then out them as scum" (which wouldn't out scum at all, but I imagine it would make some people THINK it did - like they incorrectly thought it did in his previous game).

When I explained a bit back why the lynch of Chelsea would have made sense on day 1 - there is a correlation (althouhg not as strong) that the Gimbo case clears Chelsea. AGAIN you are pre-giving a thought process to events that have not taken place. Adel never said any of the things you are stating are what make her scum.

No, I voted him because he listed Chelsea (and I described in the post above it). But I also wanted to point out how he seemed to be upset that chenshi was M.I.A.

Chenshi being M.I.A. right now should bother everyone. Again, I'm not seeing how this is scummy.

Yeah I was pointing out that the whole idea was wrong/bad. That near-certainty is not a good thing. If you are going to lynch someone to confirm someone else, you need to be able to confirm the other person, not just be "close enough". Otherwise, what is the point? Then you still have a player that there is doubt about...

Near-certainty > no certainty which is where we are today. Unless their play was different today, I wouldn't have had doubts.

And I found Adel's quote about "I'm awfully sure Gimbo is town, so I want to lynch him today" to be quite scummy... if he was awfully sure Gimbo was town then WHY WOULD HE WANT TO LYNCH HIM?? That was the point I was trying to make.

Show me this post. Give me the post number. I am not seeing it.

Well, to me this is what happened:

-I said I was suspicious of forbidden and only slightly weary of Adel
-You listed me as the "most town" player
-Adel became my top suspect
-You suddenly list me as "most suspicious" and vote for me

To me this is what happened:

-You said you were suspicious of forbidden and only slightly weary of Adel.
- I list you as the most town player.
- Adel gives her plan for names.
- You question it.
- Firestarter questions it more.
- You then start focusing only on Adel
- Shy Guy posts with his suspicions on Adel
- You then become single-minded in your persuit
- I watch this trend and vote for you.

It wouldn't have mattered WHO it was; the fact it is Adel, the one person who I KNOW is town makes it easier to remove doubt about the validity of the "me too" flag you've been waiving with this whole mess. Each time a person shows suspicion you're right there to add yours on.

If that wasn't enough, I love this whole business:

to get everyone here against the townie who did propose it first, and then when they are wrong they can just say "oh, well I was just basing it on the last game..."

"oh, well we were basing it on the last game, I guess we were just wrong" to try to avoid any suspicion/backlash...

It seems to me that compiling a list like this will only help the scum (either yourself or others) determine who the easiest town target is to push for a mislynch (or, at the very least, the hardest target - to stay away from). Maybe you and Fire aren't scum, but you and someone else are... now you see a couple players think Fire is town so you won't go after him because you think it's unlikely he'll be mislynched.

You just want to have a look at the list, work out some scheme, come up with a name that fits your scheme (as your choice) and then somehow set someone up as being the (mis)lynch. And since you only need 2/6 of us to vote with you (since surely your 3 scumbuddies will be right there saying "oh yeah, that's a great plan! let' do it!", you figure there will be two idiot townies that go along with you.

I even typed out "I wouldn't be surprised if you try to tell us you think Chelsea is the most town player and then try to say your whole case against him was crap and you are going to claim you were just saying that to trick/trap people like you did by attacking MoS and then suddenly turning on everyone who followed you in the MoS game".

And that explains why you are pissed that chenshi is M.I.A because he can't help you mislynch people.

I still think Adel/SpyreX decided before the game that since a scum had brought up the mass claim in the last game that they were going to sit back and wait until someone brought it up and then scream bloody murder and keep saying "scum did it last game, scum did it last game" (SpyreX also points out that "scum did it last game" several times too). Then, after that person gets mislynched they can just say "oh, well we thought it would be like last game - that's why we attacked them" to avoid suspicion for pushing for that person's lynch.

I'm starting to think SpyreX listed me as town because he saw that, at the time, I was mostly in favor of lynching forbidden. He probably figured by listing me as town I'd drop my earlier suspicions of his group and join his partner, Adel, in going after forbidden. If forbidden is town then Adel/SpyreX and whoever their scum partners are (either Firestarter or Chelsea - still not 100% sure which it is, so that's why I'm voting Adel instead of one of them) will have 4 votes to contribute and then me and Harvey would likely be the other 2 that would have mislynched forbidden and lost the game for the town.

Because at this time I say forbidden is my top suspect and the only reason I'm not voting him is because I am still leary of you and Adel... you probably see this as "oh ok, all we have to do is make Zeek less suspicious of us and he'll vote for forbidden"

And I wasn't saying the case on Chelsea was crap, I was saying he was going to tell us it was with something like: "see, I made the case on Chelsea Day 1, but I really didn't believe it. I wanted to see who would follow me and then out them as scum" (which wouldn't out scum at all, but I imagine it would make some people THINK it did - like they incorrectly thought it did in his previous game).

I have to wonder if maybe your reason for listing me "most town" maybe wasn't legit and you have other motives (which is all I suggested, although more lengthy, in that post).

EVERY one of these posts by you:
Attributes your thought process to:
a.) Assuming we are scum or
b.) Assuming we are scum to events that NEVER HAPPENED

Versus:

I even typed out

"I wouldn't be surprised if you try to tell us you think Chelsea is the most town player and then try to say your whole case against him was crap and you are going to claim you were just saying that to trick/trap people like you did by attacking MoS and then suddenly turning on everyone who followed you in the MoS game".

I went back and analyzed all of Adel's quotes from Day 1 and was about to make a big post,

but decided not to for the time being.

Well, I hadn't made an entire case,

so this was somewhat valid assessment.

Seeing another player find the exact same things that I had found

gave me more confidence in my case, so naturally I came out more aggressive since I was no longer in doubt about my suspicions.

So, these things that ACTUALLY OCCURED within the game that you didn't do (making your post about Chelsea,

your

analysis of Adel day 1, showing your supsisions matched Shy Guys), but you supposedly did are expected to be taken as happening?
Also, you want some evidence of the "me too" approach you've had most of today, here you go.

[SpyreX]

I am fairly certain that the two scum groups are among the three groups you didn't mention, and that the game will be won or lost based on if that group manages to both figure this out and convince us and Z/H that they are the town group.

I am doubtful that two of those groups are town. However, I am feeling a lot less confident in general than I felt when I replaced in. With a gun to my head, I would have to choose Adel & Spryex as scum but things are much less clear now.

You realize both of these quotes are implicitly saying Zeek/Harvey are town. Why?

It felt like enough time had gone by to get some result from my Chelseafan case, but my case had

none, not even a nibble

.

After I finished my reread, this also really bothered me. Again, I know I am very much the culprit in dropping my hammer before I finished my reread, but this does, STILL, really bother me.

[SpyreX]

I'd still like responses from well, anyone, about my statements about Zeek & Shy Guy.

There's been a definite connection made from Shy Guy ---> Zeek multiple times this game and I'd like an opinion on it.

[SpyreX]

@Forbid,

What do you think about the Day 1 when Knight said he'd be willing to lynch everyone but Zeek/Harvey.
What do you think about the fact Shy Guy just implicity said Zeek/Harvey are town?

[SpyreX]

I dont think you'd hear an argument from me about Knight's play.

What do you think about Zeek's play this game?

[SpyreX]

Ohh, what a surprise... no content here.

[SpyreX]

There is still 10 of us, right? Isn't there anything that anyone has to say about anything at all?

[SpyreX]

That's your response to all my questions about your play? That I'm not going to believe you and my questions are unwarranted because you've done this previously as town?

Well, since I'm feelin like stooping to that level - that other game I said your attacks were scummy (and I agreed with you even) and your target then was town. So, if you're using this as a meta, then you're already pushing for a mislynch today as is.

But, if we're just throwing sand at each other, we'll just accept those votes stay for now.

Hoping people chime in for Adel's plan.

[SpyreX]

Once more into the fray, young bucks.

Originally, I said I would post a player by player analysis, but the further I got with the Adel/Spyrex pairing, the more I seen them as scum over others.

Do you have any notes on anyone else? Or, was it "welp, they're scum, lets just go ahead and show why"

"5.) (And this gets me) You've created a situation where, if you WERE actually town, you've lost the game for us if it goes to day 2 and you are alive. Guess who I'd vote for? Hint - its you. That means, by your own logic, my partner would and then all the scums sure as hell would. "
In hindsight, Spyrex has set his D2 target, if Gimbo survives D1...

And later I explain why that would be the stupidest thing to do when I thought about it. Gimbo's claim meant either hanging him day 1 (believe scum) or having him live the whole game. The Day 2 would have been a bad move. So, yes, I made a mistake here.


PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:55 pm Post subject: 633
Im sorry... you implicity referred to me in that post.....

Dont be an idiot about it....

________________________________________________________________

Originally, I said I would post a player by player analysis, but the further I got with the Adel/Spyrex pairing, the more I seen them as scum over others.

SPYREX...(Isolated posts)
D1..

Post 2, and Spyrex weighs in with his " Why massclaim D1?"
This is consistent with his lover.

Post 5, and Spyrex places a vote on Gimbo after his "I’m scum" claim.
Nothing scumlike here. but the part at the bottom is interesting in a retrospective way...
"5.) (And this gets me) You've created a situation where, if you WERE actually town, you've lost the game for us if it goes to day 2 and you are alive. Guess who I'd vote for? Hint - its you. That means, by your own logic, my partner would and then all the scums sure as hell would. "
In hindsight, Spyrex has set his D2 target, if Gimbo survives D1...

Post 9, "Gimbo, you are a hoot but coming out claiming scum is just nuts. So, Captain Crazy is a term of endearment."
Post 11, "Now, you with that amazing scum claim, setup a situation where, if you are town, you've all but doomed the town to a loss if you survive today"
Both bolded parts imply you seem to know otherwise Spyrex.

Now this is just stretching. He claimed scum. Just like normal people claim town or people claim cop. There's no implication there - it is explicitly me saying he claimed scum.

The 3 last quoted posts all reinforce that Spyrex is going to vote Gimbo if he survives D1.
Although at the time, Gimbo's play was terrible, Spyrex did not need to re-utter this point in the space of 4 posts.
I get the feeling that if Gimbo was still with us, Adel would not have him cleared, and Spyrex was committed to him anyway.

I said later I would not have voted him day 2, period. You're also missing some key context here - like Knight saying lynch me first and if I'm town lynch Gimbo (the exact scenario I was talking about at this point). I'm not repeating myself to hear myself talk, I'm talking to other players about what is going on.

In post 22, Spyrex states that massclaiming was a bad thing for town and a good thing for scum... To date, this has not been proven by either of the pair.

I did?

MY problems with this plan involved Gimbo saying he was scum (this still hurts) and telling the town members to vote as a pair, period. Neither of these things I feel help the town and I'd like to think I've been pretty clear about that.

The massclaim, at best, is null. The TIMING of it I said was beneficial for scum. It was not some amazing pro-town play to do it like that. I've talked about it time after time.

This is a promise, a commitment, and after leaving room for discussion, he has left no scope to alter his thinking, regardless if he seen Adels' post on CF or not. Spyrex subsequently has stated that he would have changed his vote if he saw Adel's post on CF... I firmly believe, that after both of them stated how stupid they would have looked if they did change their votes, they would not have...

You know, this has been brought up - I said what I was doing. However, the others on the wagon could have moved their votes and, by nature, forced more discussion. They did not.

And if discussion changed in the shape of who would be lynched, then what???

Then the other people remove their votes before I hammer and make more discussion?

This post echoes his partners request for others to post lists of pairings...

POSSIBLE pairings; like what I posted later. Not any "who do you think is scum or town" - just the list of what the possible pairings are so it could be easily accessible to everyone.

Post 29, sees Spyrex give thoughts on D1, but most notably, asks why no-one noticed HIS partners post on lynching CF.

Yes, why no one made mention of it. I'm not sure what the MY partner emphasis is for.

Post 37, still happy with placing a vote on CF/Chenhsi..

I've expressed my idea for voting for Chel.
This means, to me, that Chel is NOT scum - thats too many votes there fellas.

These posts contain echoing of earlier comments, a pattern all too familiar with Spyrex at this stage.
While he may not seem the scummiest up to this point, he fails to commit to anything at the end of his long posts, saying he needs more re-reads, input from others, etc, etc.. Yet, D1.. he was pretty much the committed type...
A change of tact, definitely....

Of course there's going to be difference in how I look at it:
1.) It is lylo now, with enough to do a power push if something stupid happens.
2.) Today no one has

claimed scum

.

Imo, this pairing have manipulated the way most people have thought from D1, up until the point Shy Guy replaced in.
Shy Guy has attacked this pairing and everything they said beforehand, seems to have gone by the wayside, including the "Lets not vote" notion....
There’s also the small note about where Spyrex sees Zeek at this time.

How, in the name of everything, have I manipulated how people have thought? Bringing up ideas? Playing the game? I've brought my conclusions to the table and that is all.

Post 48, and Spyrex is starting to change his mind on Zeek, for attacking Adel...
"If my hammering of Gimbo is going to be the great point in which the crux of this is brought up I am going to be sad. Hell, if I was truly a prophet day 1 and this goes down the way its shaping up to I am going to be sad. "
Appeal to emotion, and the instant reversal of thinking of Zeek, and mentioning HP's erratic behaviour D1, only after Zeek attacks his partner, Adel.

This isn't the first time I brought up hesitations about Zeek's attacks on adel. It defintiely wasn't an instant reversal (hint, you said so yourself in one of my posts above). As for appeal to emotion, it was just me being tactful versus what I initially thought at that point - a town group voting for us based on the hammer issue and the whole Gimbo thing (which I called) would be fucking stupid (and it still will be if it comes to that).

In 54, Spyrex cannot see what all the fuss was about around the Gimbo lynch, yet both him and Adel, since the Gimbo lynch, have seemed very regrettable about the whole thing, yet both question why no-one posted thoughts on Adels initial post. The fact that Adel placed the hammer 9 posts after she posted her reasoning on having CF lynched, left no room for discussion, couple this with the promises that both delivered, it may not have changed their mind. I firmly believe it would not have changed their minds.
Both posts 24 & 25 of Spyrex tell us a completely different story...

The business with the hammer

, as is apparent from my posts, really drives me nuts

Hammer, not lynch. And, in case it needs to be said again, not the fact I hammered, but the fact thats somehow scummy when I said thats exactly what I was going to do ahead of time.

Post 55, and Spyrex, in response to Shy Guys analysis of the game, accuses him of coming into the game with an agenda, to remove A/S pairing from the game, regardless of alignment.
I think, looking back, that Shy Guy did indeed focus a lot on Adel, but its not without merit from the time he replaced in.
There is plenty of reasons to suspect both, as I’m pointing out here.
The OMGUS reaction of Shy Guy " having an agenda" pre-replacing in, is, imo, very weak.

From reading it, it looked like he had an agenda and it still does - for an initial reading, the focus of everything that had happened was on my partner with blips on most other players. That does not speak of an unbiased analysis.

In 57, Spyrex again states that he did "clear" Zeek at one stage, but also states he was very hesitant about it, the fact he named Zeek over others, means he was more hesitant about the rest of the players... At any point in the game, every player, town, of course, is hesitant to confirm/clear anyone.

Yep, I was - because every group has had their scummy player or scummy moments.

59, and Spyrex states that any suspicion anyone has over his pairing in relation the hammer is weak...
Rubbish, both of you committed to it, and failed to follow up on what’s been pushed in D2, why no-one went after CF.

So, the hammer itself isn't scummy (like I'm saying) but what happened day 2 retroactively makes the hammer scummy? Or what?

Post 64, and Spyrex, who 16 posts earlier was more sure of Zeek than any other player of being town, places his vote on him. Funnily enough, Spyrex singles 2 players out that he was undecided about voting for, Shy Guy & Zeek...
Even funnier is the fact that both of them launched attacks on his love pairing.

Yep, 16 posts earlier. How much changed between then? How much of what I commented on WHY my feelings changed about Zeek happened then?

Yep, they sure both did launch attacks on Adel - and both of them, as I went through in many of the posts you haven't said much about, said why I feel they are weak. Zeek, especially, for parroting. Not sure what you're getting at here.

Another appeal to emotion, and the confirmation of a vote being laid down...
This after Spyrex wanted to wait until his partner, Adel, finished her "list" before committing anywhere.

I'm not appealing to emotion - I just am losing the ability to care about all this.

Post 67, "I don’t mind her voting with me. I should have finished my read before voting."
Of course you don’t... it hammered a townie.
To say you didn't finish your read means nothing, its equally probable that you did read it, and simply ignored it.

You're right. My not reading is one of the big mistakes I made because its not provable in any manner. It may cost us the game.

Post 68 sees Spyrex giving reasons why has changed his view on Zeek, and offers lines on why Zeek has attacked Adel... which are the same reasons he's voting for Zeek.... Claims the timing of Zeeks attacks on Adel are questionable.
Personally, most of what Zeek has mentioned is also included in what I am posting. I also see these reasons as Adel/Spyrex being scum. It is Spyrex's attack here which is odd, as he doesn't give any. It like a very thick OMGUS post.

If, in reading that, you dont see my reasons why I was bothered by the specific events I dont know what to tell you. If you think its an OMGUS, fine, I'm not going to try and change minds anymore on it.





Well, if the partners agree, you've got 6 people pretty sure we're scum at this point. I think we're going through the motions from here on out, but I'll let Adel try to get people to comment on her second list.

Zeek, for sure, is scum. I really doubt both of you other sets are townies, but at least one of you is. Look at all of the game and give it a reread. I'm done fighting it and when its lost its because one of you two isn't seeing my problems with why you're attacking Adel and, ultimately, isn't seeing the issues with Zeek's play.

No more megaposts for me. I dont think we're getting anywhere new. I'd ask everyone to answer Adel's "tedious" list and maybe the three who are attacking us give just a simple bulleted list of the reasons why we're scum. For added points, look at the three groups attacking and the attacks and look for some connections there.

[SpyreX]

Sigh, I have a misquote in there.

[SpyreX]

Maybe I just invest too much. Watching the three megaposts on why we're scum with so much of the same stuff and the interjections into why we're doing things that never happened or whatever makes me want to pull my hair out.

I'm not saying the deadline's going to fuck it up, I'm saying I dont think they're going to be convinced otherwise. Three groups is 6, so we'll all put up on your list, there'll be some "discussion" and we'll get lynched. It'll be fun!

[SpyreX]

I'd really like the input from all of them with my problems with Zeek's play, and attacks, specifically. I hope shyguy gets back soon. In a magic world, I'd like chenshi to contribute as well.

[SpyreX]

Why is your name crossed out? Because you refuse to help in any fashion and we can't seem to get rid of you.

As for Adel - Zeek & Shy Guy.

[SpyreX]

@Harvey,

I know its rude, but honestly, not contributing at all all game is definitely rude and nothing seems to make it change. I'm a little exasperated.

[SpyreX]

I am not very willing to dismiss chenhsi's play as "always does that". I think if Adel is scum chenhsi is the partner, and also Nameless. chenhsi really looks like the lynch for me. The only possible exception would be a Nameless lynch... but I doubt that that's correct.

I might be reading this wrong, but did you just say there's 3 groups in the scum setup (again, leaving out only Zeek/Harvey)?

Scum can't bus each other, because lynching one kills all of them. Considering that 40% of the game is made of scum at this juncture, it should not be hard to figure out which clump of four is the most likely to be trying to avoid each other.

I agree that scum can't do a full bus - hence why I "cleared" chenshi earlier. The only problem is (and I can agree with it to a degree) is that short of a lynch its hard to tell if it is bussing or not.

I'm not even sure why I replaced CF over Chentsi, it seems that Chentsi was posting much much less.

Truer words haven't been spoken.

[SpyreX]

The other thing I have noticed is that he has early on (And mostly through the entire game) said that he feels Adel is scum adn that Chentsi is likely a partner. I didn't read too deeply into it but I got the impression that Chentsi was considered scum *because* of Adel's actions; however, through the entire game he has been definitely pushing suspicion more onto Chelsea and Chentsi than he has to Adel.

I'm not sure how you're getting this (maybe we're looking at it differently) - my problems were that his huge post was focused on Adel instead of a true read.

Unless you're trying to say that Adel and I are partners with him and want to lynch you? (which, of course, is not the case. Zeek is scum. )

[SpyreX]

I've been supporting an Adel/Spyrex/Zeek/Harvey pair for a while, and I still don't honestly think that Skruffs is scum (or chelseafan was). I may have earlier today (hell, I even voted in a gambit that ended up shot down by chen), but right now I think we'll find Zeek is the play, since there seems (so far) to be the most agreement on him (also the most agreement on my pair, but Zeek is singly mentioned most). Either way, I want to see where Adel is going.

Wait...what? You two have been mentioning ZEEK the most as scum?

I have no words.

[SpyreX]

So, we either get to have this game stuck until the 16th or get a wagon in 3 days. Nice!

[SpyreX]

^ Amen

[SpyreX]

* no metas though.

Jokes aside, glad to see we've got an active pair in. I feel like we've been stagnating some and I want to see some real discussion again.

[SpyreX]

Heh, give a reread then see.

[SpyreX]

From who? Adel? We're still waiting for everyone to even chime in their answers to that.

How about you, anything to comment on?

[SpyreX]

More replacements! Huzzah!

Blah

[SpyreX]

My deal is nothing like 4 replacements at lylo in a game where there's links between players.

[SpyreX]

Ohh no, we've got a long way to go for that.

[SpyreX]

I think there was a well over 30 page day in a game recently.

[SpyreX]

@Shy Guy

How about that whole implicitly saying Zeek & Harvey are town and suspiciously not making references to them (also, look at your predecessor). I dont think I ever got a real answer to that.

I really like some of these, enough to bring it up now!

-Knight was frustrated with Gimbo's play.

-Knight thought Spryex and Gimbo were both suspicious and thought that lynching both of them was not a bad idea.

-I tried to make cases day 2 about day 1 actions while many other players either sat back and did nothing or tried to attack cases being made day 2.

1.) Knight was, well, bad. He was spinning around flailing in different directions. I think he endoresed a lynch of everyone but Zeek/Harvey day 1.
2.) You dont see how that statement is suspicious though? Calling for a chain lynch which, of course, was lynch me then lynch Gimbo (the WORST result of Gimbo's stupid stunt).
3.) Are you really saying no one did anything involving day 2? Really?

If you are town we need your vote

(on someone other than me!)

to win

You do realize that this reads a whole lot like chenshi's "anyone but us", right?

I'm also not getting the swift change from the calm and collected Shy Guy to the far more aggressive and defensive one at this point.

I'm not switching my vote though. I'm still firmly convinced Zeek is scum - this just sure enforces me thinking you're his partner.

[SpyreX]

Hm? I said quite explicitly that zeek & harvey look most town to me. What?

Sorry, I missed it early on. Thats fine, though.

I can't really comment on this as I didn't pay close attention to Knight, he seemed wrong so I quickly became disinterested.

In the sense that he makes no sense, I can understand. However, when in his spewing about he names everyone BUT Zeek & Harvey and then you also clear them, seems suspicious.

Day 1 I'd likely have said we should lynch chenhsi then Adel if chenhsi is town. This game is all about connections between players and what the alignment of one pair implies about others.

That's a huge step up from the other option, I'll give you. Knight chose the path that had the highest chance of absolute failure. Now, you'd be wrong about us, but at least thats not walking into the worst result of Gimbo's "plan".

I'd say that it is very reasonable to say I was among the first and most proactive in trying to analyze day 1's actions, while a significant group of people did nothing or solely focused on criticizing the cases of others.

So, my posts at the end of day 1 and the beginning of day 2 weren't there?

In context? No, actually. Not at all. Chenhsi didn't seem to care care who was lynched besides himself. I've made my thoughts quite clear on the matter.

The fact it was (on someone other than me) then "your vote should be on X, who is scum" struck me as similiar.

Why would you say I am not calm and collected? I see no basis for this assertion. I certainly feel quite calm and collected, and am in fact quite enjoying myself.

See, in this post you seem calm. You seemed very antagonistically defensive with arm, especially.

A conviction I am entirely unpersuaded by. Your vote is likely going to need to go elsewhere if the town is to win, if you are town.

So, nothing about my posts 68/73 makes you even question his play?

See, my vote is staying where it is and these exchanges are only further making me think it is you that is the Zeek partner. However, since there is still some doubt on you, I'm sticking with Zeek.

[SpyreX]

*sigh* Meta.

I really hate feeling like we're treading water now, and, of course half the players seem to have vanished off the face of the earth.

None of this has made me feel Zeek isn't scum at all, though.

[SpyreX]

Zeek/Harvey/Shy Guy/FL

There's your help. Look at the connections between Shy Guy & Knight and Zeek and look at Zeek's play. Of ALL of us, thats the most obvious connections (with Adel/SpyreX/Skruffs/Arm second) and they have, to me, managed to be scummy independently of each other - of the four, FL is the least by far.

[SpyreX]

You've been sitting on the sidelines as I've argued why I haven't been suspicious, with no thought/input Spryex. I am deeply concerned by this.
Spryex I think you're either scum or extremely misguided. I find the probability of a CC-HZ pairing very low, and well, a HZ-SF pairing is 0 chance.

Right now I am thinking fairly strongly CC-AS or CC-NF. The only possible pair that I could be overlooking is NF-HZ... I guess that is possible. Maybe it would be better to vote for NF, because my suspicion of Adel is dwinding. I'd want to think about that a lot before doing it though. Maybe CC-HZ isn't as preposterous as I'd thought. Eh, if I had to put money right now, I'd put it on CC-NF.

Good thing you cleared up a 0 chance of you being scum with Zeek. Notice, again, my vote is sitting on Zeek because he's been scummy. Your previous incarnation was pro-zeek by omission, you've been pro-zeek all the way. You say I'm misguided when my vote isn't on you. I think its the most probable pairing with you and Zeek, but if I'm wrong about you, I sure dont think I am about Zeek.

Look above. Again, in all your pairings its still not ever Zeek. Ever. I have not seen a reason for this belief - you've made a case on others being scum, but I have not yet seen ONE reason I can go "Ohh, thats a good reason Zeek is playing town." You're not even suspicious, its just he's being town.

As for the thought / input..well, I've been reading along, but it just feels like more of the same. Something revolutionary happens, I might change my mind. [/quote]

[SpyreX]

I'm not sold on Shy Guy being town, but they -could- definitely be town;however, I still haven't seen any reason why Zeek isn't scum.

So, if we accept Shy Guy is town, we're not getting Zeek from everything I've seen - Which, really, leaves us with a scum group of 4 which I frankly dont buy: Arm/Scruff/Nameless/Firestarter.

[SpyreX]

@Shy Guy,

IF you are town, and I was to look for a parnter for Zeek, it'd be Nameless/Firestarter. FS and Zeek had some serious parroting going on early day 2, especially in regards to Adel. Maybe if I'm feelin better I'll go see if I can hunt it down though.

[SpyreX]

Initially, before I -really- reread Zeek, I thought he was behaving very towny; building cases, weighing information, etc.

Once he started parroting and, really, bulldogging Adel on "hypothetical" scenarios I did a reread and saw that, from the beginning, most of his arguments were that way.

So, before the explosions today (which really occured after I cleared him) I felt he was being helpful, however, watching the train of logic afterwards, I saw a huge disproportion in his behavior.

[SpyreX]

@Shy

I'll give you a more detailed version tomorrow night (or the next day depending on my schedule) but it was the method and the timing of his push on Adel (especially the ebb and flow of it in relation to others commenting on it). I can understand some of the concerns of Adel's case - but, as I said before, each time someone else brought something up he was there to "me too" and become more belligerent and aggressive on, really, weaker points.

One of my earlier posts talks in HUGE detail about the problems I found with his arguments in general. I can summize it again but considering after that train he just threw his hands up about it all there hasn't been anything new.

[SpyreX]

My posts 68 and 73 (god I've said a lot of words this game).

After you read those, ask me some more questions. I'm gonna be late with work though.

[SpyreX]

Welcome Erg0 - shame you're scum and all, but welcome nonetheless.

[SpyreX]

135. I win.

[SpyreX]

Welcome to lylo. Please feel free to enjoy the mints we've left out for all the replacements.

[SpyreX]

It seems I will never get the time to re-read, so I will just put it out there: my initial impression on Spryex vs. Zeel was that Spryex hedged a lot about Zeel and when Zeel started attacking Spryex Spryex OMGUS'd Zeel. Zeel's posts seem pretty reasonable, but the one thing that leaves doubt in my mind is how he explained he "felt comfortable" or something about coming out after I started attacking Adel. Spryex, it seems awfully like your suspicions of Zeel came right after he attacked you because he attacked you... You say it is the manner in which he did so but... hard to trust for me.

What did I hedge about Zeek? My thinking he was town then, due to the day 2 events, seeing a very scummy pattern in it?

If you really think all of that is an OMGUS case (especially considering I have provided about all the evidence I could) I am not sure what else I can say about it. Still, most of that was built off the hypothetical "They are scum, therefore" instead of looking at what happened in the game.

And, yes, it IS the manner of his methods Day 2 that caught my attention - timing is everything and being consistently there to "me too" while building flimsy cases to try and build steam does it.

[SpyreX]

I think the argument is although he did highlight everyone as scum they've been grouped due to connections he's seen .

So, really, all he's done is say that it is NOT:

SG/Anyone
Arm/Nameless
Adel/Zeek

That, really, doesn't help us move forward in any way.

[SpyreX]

Agreed, but there could be something said for having two groups that are linked more than others.

[SpyreX]

Also agreed. I think what he said was, really, not helpful in the slightest but the IDEA of it holds merit.

[SpyreX]

All in all, it was useless to the extent of "Everyone but me could be mafia" so worse, but the idea of "These pairs make more sense" is going to be an avenue we will persue.

Do we have everything we need for the list?

[SpyreX]

Well, lets get these movin guys. I want to see us take another lurch forward.

[SpyreX]

...Cyber, you have no feelings on anything in the 37 pages we've had so far?

We've just got threatened with a deadline and I'd like to see some more activity from, well, pretty much everyone. I don't want this game to end due to inactivity or some rushed lynch.

Reread and find SOMETHING you see as scummy.

[SpyreX]

I get my replacements mixed up. Is Erg0 Zeek?

[SpyreX]

This is what happens. We're definitely at some level of an impasse - I am not going to try to hunt for the other scum when I've found one in Zeek. There's been so little agreement on that, that although I am right one of the people fighting against it is town.

Thats about where we've sat on every wagon. No one wants to make the move to get the fire a burnin'.

[SpyreX]

Wow, we've got some activity in ha'

However, even if he is town, that is not to say that his argument's weren't partially motivated by OMGUS. That is also not to say that his arguments weren't invalid.

If, by OMGUS, you mean I saw Zeek jump on Adel after the first people started questioning and then quiet down AND THEN do it again after you came in and started on it... yes.

Funny thing is about OMGUS - it doesn't really apply here. If I went "Ohh GOD SCUM FOR ATTACKING ADEL" sure.

However, the fact is its not the person but the method. Hell, after I brought it up again it was just the /emo reply and the pish-posh.

However, I don't think all his arguments were valid, and I think they were inspired by his team being attacked.

You're tying two things together here that have no real connection.

If you want to say "SpyreX looked in more detail at Zeek because of his attack on Adel (his partner)" sure, that could be buyable.

However, even if that was the catalyst - making the statements the arguments aren't valid because of it makes no sense.

If my case on Zeek isn't valid someone better sure show me some reasons why the case isn't. Not the events that brought it up, but the case itself.

[SpyreX]

Isn't this pretty much what you did, though? I haven't read everything thoroughly, but as late as post 544 you're saying that your vote on Zeek was based only on his "thin" attacks. Saying now that it was the timing that was the issue smacks of revisionism. I'm guessing that you've realised that you need to separate your "bad case != scum" defence from your case against him.

I'll get into more detail later, but I'm rereading what you're saying and even in that post you said my attack was because it was thin. That quote:

2.) Zeek's attacks on Adel have been thin (see his lastest post)

and have parroted other objections.

Not to mention even in his Day 1 posts like I said before he starts painting a case to push today on us.

Its not

just

the fact that his case was poor - it was the timing of it. If I need to go back through it all again and dig it all up and redo that case all over I will. There's two huge, but separate, scumfactors with Zeek I've been saying over and over.

1.) Zeek had been pushing a very weak case on Adel.
2.) The ebb and flow of Zeek's case has directly been correlated to the pressure being put on by other players.

Saying now that it was the timing that was the issue smacks of revisionism.

If you want I'll go through every post I have about Zeek and show how many talk about both. I appreciate actually bringing up post numbers, but, again - this smacks of not reading everything thats there.

[SpyreX]

I think that if we do not come to a consensus before deadline the chances of us actually winning this game are going to be way, way lower. With 4 scum, if any two town are wrong, we lose when they powerlynch. At beast, with 1 town wrong (or not voting together with their partner) we end up in a 5/5 split.

Looking at the voting (and assuming, ultimately, partners vote together), we've got:

2 groups on the Erg0/Harvey train (Me/Adel + Forbid/ShyGuy)
2 groups on the Shy Guy train (Nameless/Cyber + Arm/Skruffs)
2 confused groups on the Skruffs/Arm train (Harvey/Erg0 + ShyGuy/Forbid)
1 group on the Adel/SpyreX train (Skruffs/Armlx).

I'm not sure what to make of that, but I put it up for analysis.

@Ergo:

If you can point to the first post where you mentioned that your Zeek's timing was a major problem then that would be helpful - there's a lot of stuff to read through, so it's possible that I missed it. Right now I have the impression that you're trying to redirect the argument towards the scumminess of Zeek's timing because you don't think you'll win an argument about the case itself.

I'm not trying to "redirect" anything. Zeek's attacks were weak (after his first I make the statement he was attacking for the sake of attacking) AND SEPARATELY they were parroted.

Of the two, its the cases that are weak and bother me more. Its the predecision that we are scum and then attributing "you're scum, so you did this for this and this" to actions or to things that NEVER OCCURED that strikes me as scummy. The fact that whenever someone else chimed in he was right there to go "yea, me too" is well, a separate scummy issue.

[SpyreX]

Not as much as I like my Zeek vote

[SpyreX]

Since I just found out that I'll be out of town the next week with fairly limited access...what the hell. I still think its Zeek though.

Unvote, Vote Nameless.

[SpyreX]

I'm going to have LA for the next week, but I'll toss in some notes:

I find it very interesting that Skruffs came out of the woodwork defending this more than Nameless has. Although, that would mean that Zeek / Harvey are town and I just dont know what I think about that.

The fact Nameless is sitting at 4 and isn't dead when everyone has chimed in but... Zeek and Harvey. If Nameless IS town, it's drumroll... Zeek/Harvey/FL/ShyGuy

I'll try to hop on and I am going to follow my partner around.

I also dont know what to make of this:

Quick answer: armlx/Skruffs and

Adel/SpyreX as scum

, Shy Guy/forbiddanlight as town.

Why do you think Adel is town?

We don't need to catch all four bad guys. Only one. Adel is so obviously the one to catch that her partners are making it even easier by trying to deflect, safetly, attention away from her. If she were town, scum would be bouncing up and down on her grave by now.

Seems like an odd place to misread 180 degrees.

So Adel, I leave the ball mostly in your court. Personally, I STILL think its gonna end up being SG/FL/Erg0/Harvey - but I couldn't seem to persuade anyone too that so.

[SpyreX]

I'll do my best.

[SpyreX]

Ho hum. I see it's going to pretty much come down to a choice between Nameless and Adel. The choice for me is obvious - I am 100% confident (being in the position I am) that Nameless is town, and I have found myself nodding my head on occasion while reading the charges brought against Adel. Vote: Adel

For the record, this may in fact top everything Zeek did as being scummy. From the ho-hum all the way through.

My access is megadead and, from the votes it looks like when harvey jumps we're getting lynched. In case that doesn't happen, just read this again.

[SpyreX]

Ho hum. I see it's going to pretty much come down to a choice between Nameless and Adel. The choice for me is obvious - I am 100% confident (being in the position I am) that Nameless is town, and I have found myself nodding my head on occasion while reading the charges brought against Adel. Vote: Adel

For the record, saying one post is possibly the Most Scummiest Thing Ever(tm) but being unable to point out one single thing that makes it so is at least slightly scummy.

Sorry I didn't have a chance to elaborate - I'm still VLA working on a mutant piece of machine that barely functions.

Of course Cyberbob isn't going to vote for Namless, that's a given - it'd be retarded to vote for your partner at this point.

However, coming in from saying very little (honestly, I dont have time for a PbA on Cyberbob but he hasn't said much) to make a statement like above - that the choices are simply A or B with the ONLY solid reason being given for it is that A is not an option is scummy. The whole agreement with that vote is "I've nodded my head a few times to whats been said."

Hell, if it was simply "I'm voting with my partner." It would not have appeared as scummy as above. Trying to justify a vote like above really screams scummy to me - more than anything Zeek has done.

I know it is a weak argument in most games, but it does bear mentioning here - 4 votes have sat on Namless far more than long enough for a quick hammer.

Me, of course, being one of the votes is why this is weak - but unless you assume all 4 of the votes on Namless are scum then the scum would have hammered by now - unless, of course, Nameless is scum.

So, if Adel is scum the group HAS to be Fl/SG/SpyreX/Adel - otherwise this game would be done by now.

With the way the votes have been moving around, I really dont know what to make of the "non-voters":

If Namless was town and Arm/Scruffs were scum, the game would be over.
If Namless is scum and Arm/Scruffs are the scum partners, not putting Adel at equal votes seems like a ballsy move when there would be more than enough reason to shove the votes there.

Erg0's vote "for Zeek" on Adel seems off. Harvey not being here makes it hard to say for sure, however (surprise) I'm thinking that they are the scum parters in this setup. Harvey going AWOL at this point makes it impossible for the scum to finish the push and the shift would appear off.

It makes more sense to me for Arm/Scruffs to be the third town pair then them being scum - either way if they were scum they could seal up this game (unless they are being ultra-conservative waiting for Harvey to come in to finish this up).

Just kinda rambling - I'll check back in. To sum up, if you think Adel is scum you are saying the pairing is Adel/Spyrex/SG/FL - no other would make sense with the time that has elapsed.

Also, with how this has went, one of Scruffs/Arm - Harvey/Erg0 has to be the scum partner with Namless. Any other setup (aside from the four votes on Nameless being the scum) and the game would be done. So, my impassioned plea to whichever group of you is actually the town (I'm betting on Scruff/Arm) - vote for Nameless.

I'm out, I'll check in at least once more before deadline.

[SpyreX]

Obviously it's a weak argument when the four votes on me come from the four people I was already reasonable sure were scum. The mafia can't quick lynch when they're the only one's voting. (/Obvious)

Thats what I'm getting at - now, the only way Adel OR Shy Guy really can be scum is if they are together. That's the only scenario that makes sense.

If you look at the course of this game and think that the scum group IS Adel/SpyreX/SG/FL - well, then your vote should be obvious. However, if you do NOT think that is the pairing - well, then your vote should be obvious; there is no scenario where one pair is scum and the other town that makes sense and if ONE set of us is town, well, you're scum or the game would be over.

Also, interesting to note, if you're so sure it is the four of us - why wouldn't you have shifted your vote to Shy Guy? With two votes on your pair could tie it up instead of being at 3 right now.

I'm just telling the swing-votes (well, the town group of swing voters) to really look at what's happened with this - there's only one scenario where votes for Adel or Shy Guy make sense (and, really they're one in the same at this point - Shy Guy is cleared to me as explained above) and if they think thats what it is, well, go for it and end it. If NOT, however - if you think EITHER group is town well, the other has to be and that means that Nameless IS scum.

I'll try to check in one more time at least.

[SpyreX]

Well, considering I am still v/la I would love an extention - but, I think the point is moot?

Say what you will about Adel and I's play - but I would really like you to examine Nameless and Cyberbobs rapid change in posting amount, style and tone in the last few pages.

Shy Guy has went about this the wrong way, but I get where they are coming from - unless you think the four scum all jumped on nameless the events of the last few pages make no sense UNLESS NAMELESS IS SCUM.

Any other scenario would have been ended in a scum victory. Being directly involved makes it impossible to argue that effectively.

So, whomever the last town group is, look at the last pages before its game over.

I'm betting the last votes come in before there can be a deadline anyways. Sorry about the fuckups Adel.

[SpyreX]

Well holy hell in a handbasket. Go go Arm for the end-game win there - I honestly thought we were boned.

Couple three thoughts about the game:

1.) Excellent modding. No mistakes and no delays - thats really nice to have.
2.) I'm really learning to watch the damn lurkers - I KNOW I get tunnel visioned on active players too much which, of course, can lead to town-on-town slapfights. I knew in the back of my head much of day two I was, really, ignoring Nameless and Cyberbob too much. I just cant help it because I hate building lurker cases.
3.) I'm soo glad I was right about Zeek. That one would have made me want to hang my head in shame and never play again. Sad I couldn't manage to convince anyone else, but.
4.) @Shy Guy: I still think your first analysis was jaded. I'm really glad I didn't get focused on it (partially because, well, Zeek was sooo scummy to me) but I couldn't shake it all game. It was FL that really made me wonder if you were town.
5.) This is my
of the whole game - I honeslty was so busy I had no idea why when I put my vote thing up Nameless was scum by it AND I was even more confused when FL went with it - it was more a hand-throwing "fuck it" at that point when I changed my vote with Adel.
6.) Even though they were town, I still 100% am fine with lynching Gimbo for claiming scum like he did. It would have been interesting to see how it would have went if it ended up switching to Chelsea, but all in all I dont think I'd ever let that claim stand up.
7.) It really sucks to have a win when, really, it would have been damn hard for the mafia to pull it out with an inactive - I get so tired of inactives causing huge game shifts. Getting 2 town to agree is hard enough, getting 3 (in essence 4) is damn near impossible.

All in all I had a lot of fun. I know there's a few huge mistakes that really hurt us that I had a part in, but I did try to correct them as we went. Good times.

[SpyreX]

Meaning I thought you were town. Of the group I was really considering you were the one that felt town to me.