Open 81 - The New C9 - Game Over

[JordanA24]

So sorry for my 9-page absense, forgot to put this on my Watch List, anyway (writing this as I read):

roflcopter was just plain awful on Page 1, saying he appreciated the Doc being dead (Korts is also guilty of this btw)? Narrowing down the lynch options to 2 players on Page 1 (or implying this)? And the post where he accuses armlx of Rolefishing on Page 2 is even worse really, when you say someone is definatly town on Page 1, you should expect someone to think you may be cop claiming Page 1 (he also mentioned how stupid and unlikely he thought this was). Voting him for it? Argh!

@iamausername, you may think its a stupid trap, but it worked. when someone says "player x is obvtown" at the start of day one, and someone else says "why?" the only answer they're looking for or thinking is "because i'm a town power role duh."

He didn't really ask why though, he merely pointed out the possibility of a cop claim.

I agree when SC says that rofl may be scum who pointed out a townie to get on that townie's good side (although if he did, he did a horrible job of not making it look scummy)

i find armlx scummier for trying to take control of the game

vote:armlx

Showing initiative=/=Trying to take control.

This post=Bad Posting

What logic is that you are implying?

The short explanation:

1) On N0, if a game is balanced, killing off a random person should be even benefit on both sides. The vig doesn't kill themselves, so the pool is slanted towards the town's favor as there are (balanced number - 1 ) townies vs (balanced number) scum.

2) Vigilante kills after N0 are generally the same as more lynches. Which is good.

This is poor logic because there is 5 scum compared to 15 town. So even if you eliminate 1 town (the vig himself), it's still only a 5 in 19 chance of hitting scum, with a decent chance of hitting a town power role.

Good, good, more.

@Iron Man- yes, of course it's a rolefish. And no, I don't know if there are masons. If there aren't any, asking them to reveal doesn't risk much, does it?

The logic is basically: with 2 masons out in the open, it helps town winnow the field of potential lynch candidates, and forces scum to make an awkward and annoying choice. Either they can waste NKs on masons (who have no pro-town abilities other than confirming each others' town-ness), or they can try to kill someone else, hoping that (a) they hit a power role, and (b) they can hide the next day despite there being fewer and fewer viable lynch options.

This seems counterintuitive, but in every game I've been in the town has been better served the earlier the masons reveal.

How many of the games that the masons claimed early on it contained an SK? To me, the claimed Masons will just become perfect SK-bait.

username looked slightly scummier to me thanks to his reaction to Lowell's suggestion, which was just dismissing it with no explainaion as to why. I'm guessing he did this because it seemed to go against logic, but some ideas that turn out to be great do seem stupid at first, so just dismissing it because it seems poor is a bad idea and possibly scummy as well.

ok armlx, your question is probably worded better than mine, but you clearly get the idea of what i was trying to do. you're still scum though.

i actually find myself agreeing with lowell's argument for a mason claim. outed masons either draw nightkills away from power roles that actually have night actions (such as the vig we know we have) or remain as a confirmed-town thorn in the scum's side.

yes lowell asking for the masons to claim is obviously rolefishing, but armlx's rolefishing is worse because no matter what he says about looking for what meta or tell i had that made iron man pro town, what he was really trying to figure out was if i'm a cop.

so i'm just gonna go ahead and do this, sorry iron cause i can see you are against it, but i really think lowell is right.

i am a mason with iron man.

armlx, korts, blakadder and to a lesser extent strangercoug are all looking extremely scummy right now. i think armlx is clearly the play today.

just to clarify, my vote for strife was complete and utter bullshit, whereas my vote for armlx was not, and the reason i paired them and asked who was scummier was to see who was gonna try and keep the attention off of armlx by saying strife when strife really hasn't done anything wrong. korts went one step further by vehemently denying the whole attempt to draw out information. obviously nobody is going along with my request at this point, so i'm just gonna point out now that korts/armlx working so hard to shoot it down is another thing that makes me all but positive that armlx is scum and reasonably sure korts is one of his partners.

OK, fair enough, I retract my earlier statements about your scummiess, presuming no-one counterclaims.

But, next time you do something like this

DO NOT REVEAL WHO YOUR PARTNER IS, ESPECIALLY WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT!!!

If your partner wants to claim, he can do so himself, but I'd have much prefered it if only 1 Mason had claimed in this situation (and one should never have outed both), since later on, it's a potential pitfall for scum who are looking for a fakeclaim to fall into.

Although, to be fair to you, you are right in saying you could have taken a fair guess at who your partner is if you just claimed Mason anyway, which is why you shouldn't say in your opening posts something like "Ironman is definate town", since it makes your Mason Partner obvious should you claim Mason, and it draws early attention to yourself as well.

I did not see him confirm before I started typing. Sorry.

I don't intend to unvote at this time, because town or not, you have made a serious,

SERIOUS

blunder that is making it hard to believe your claim. For all I know, Night 0 you could have talked with Iron Man and agreed to fakeclaim mason when it came to that point.

If you must roleclaim a power role during Day 1, wait until lynch -1 to do it.

What'd be the point in fakeclaiming Mason and outing a Mafia partner under not much pressure on Page 3? You have a terrible reason for not unvoting SC.

I will unvote you once I have a good reason to do so. Right now I do not.

Claimed masons is a good reason.

*grumble, grumble*

Fine.

Unvote: roflcopter

, but I still believe your actions warrant an

FoS: roflcopter

.

The above is probably the scummiest action in the game so far. SC, was it not obvious before that rofl was a claimed Mason? So why did you only unvote when armlx pointed this out?

I want to propose a different theory and get feedback from you guys except roflcopter, Iron Man, Armix, and Lowell (for now).

We know that there are definitely 4 scums in this game. Do you think it is possible that the scum got together N0 and devised a fake Mason claim? Iron Man doesn't seem too upset that rofl outed him. Lowell asks for the claim and with little pushing rofl claims and outs Iron Man. I think it's too convenient to not be scummy.

HOS: roflcopter and Iron Man
FOS: Armix and Lowell

So you think that the scum decided to have 2 members claim Mason, practically killing themselves in the long run, and have the two other scum link themselves to the claimed Masons quite strongly?

I'm not ready to vote you yet, but should a wagon appear on you, I will sure as hell join it.

Congrats, you've just displaced SC for the title of scummiest post in the game.

vote:forbidden light

i agree with the others points

Obv. Bandwagoning, you're now tying with FL for the above award.

Well, in case you all DO want to kill me shortly, I might as well point out I'm a vanilla townie. No claim here, continue voting at will. I'm actually quite astounded that that one statement got a wagon on me. To be honest, I was justifying intuition. I don't feel that StrangerCoug is town, but I'm maddeningly incapable of backing that up with much more, hence why I only FoS'd. I didn't want to start the bandwagon because I didn't have any "real" evidence. If a wagon started, my intuition would be more justified, and I also might actually find the reason that I'm suspicious of him, other than what I said. I also think at this point there is probably at least one scum on my wagon (since they should pretty clearly know I'm not scum). Given that, I will

vote Vamparific

since from what I can tell, he just waltzed in and jumped on the running wagon. Pretty easy way to hide as everyone was accusing me of attempting to do. I also am supsicious of StrangerCoug, but since that's not likely to go anywhere, let's hit the other one who looks mildly scummy here.

Also, I have 5 votes on my wagon. Thanks .

Why did you claim at -4?? Claiming should NOT be done until you're at about -2. And just out the blue with no-one asking for a claim? What's that about?

I'm not sure whether to believe it or not, because you're new, it's possible you didn't know that's it's fairly vital you abstain from claiming for as long as possible, but on the other hand, your newness and the sudden bandwagon on you, if you're scum, could have caused you to panic and fakeclaim the most convenient role you could, Vanilla (since it's virtually uncounterclaimable).
Leaning towards the former for now tbh, since you're new I'm cutting you more slack than I normally would. Plus, I feel there will be better targets for my vote at the the end of this post (some are already in my head).

forbiddenlight, I'm utterly confused as to how claiming Vanilla Townie isn't really claiming, have you gotten Vanilla Townie and being generally protown mixed up?

I cede your points. I forgot the SK was considered scum. And the fact that it could be considered anti-town if I'm shrinking the pool of potential power roles. Sorry.

Sorry, but where did the SK come into this topic?

I also get the whole deal with Vamp. Seems really opprotunistic given his poting history.

FoS Vamp

.

More later.

lol i keep screwing myself over

This is a very poor (non-)excuse.

Back to the game. I'm getting very strong town-vibes from korts and forbiddan, though for different reasons. I'd like to hear more about the case against armlx, if there is one, and wonder why the case against strangercoug fell apart so quickly. I'm not ready to abandon hope...

What reasons do you have for finding forbidden protown?

Review of my Top Suspects

Stranger:Doesn't seem to bring much new to the game, re-iterates other players points quite a bit, seems fairly willing to try to hide in the shadows somewhat. How quickly his wagon dissapated also bugs me, that disintegration may have been caused by scum. And then of course, there was the time he seemed to just bend to armlx's will and conform with the general opinion of the town, which is scummy and sort of fits in with the rest of his behaviour.

forbiddenlight: Following bandwagons, claiming needlessly, confusing posts, I'm not a fan of this guy at all.

vamparific: The most obviously scummy player. The "I keep screwing myself over" post was the most fail in the game so far, and some of her other posts don't come very far behind.

A bit confused at the moment on who to vote for, vamp is very obv scummy, but this gives me the feeling he may just be town who's playing very poorly. Would scum make themselves this obvious unless they really shouldn't be playing Mafia? This is just a whole load of WIFOM to me atm.

Tomorrow, when I'm less tired, I shall look further in-depth, I admit this was a bit of a skim-read to get to grips with the game (and it's late and I'm tired). If I had to vote now, I'd probably vote StrangerCoug, but be highly tempted by Vamp and maybe forbidden. I'll decide probably tomorrow.

[JordanA24]

Blakadder has seemed very willing to follow bandwagons so far

FOS: Blakadder

[JordanA24]

2) To beat a dead horse: uh, you think having only one mason outed would cause scum to try to fakeclaim mason? Really? How does that work?

Scum: (uh oh, what do I do what do I do wait I KNOW!)
"I'm a mason!"
Mason 1: "No, I'm a mason"
Mason 2: "It's true... he is"
Scum: "OH NOES!! A counterclaim, how unexpected! I'm boned!"

What I meant was that the claimed Mason would be dead before the scum tried to claim being the other Mason.

[JordanA24]

Vamp may seem like a decent vote due to his refusal to do anything useful for the town, but I can't help shake the feeling that his wagon is a scum-driven one on an easy target (Oh, and apologies for saying you are female btw, lol). To a lesser extent, I get the same feeling with forbidden.

And actually, now that I re-read armlx's reasoning, I realized I read it wrong the first time, as in armlx didn't deny being the vig in any way. Ah well.

This is the exact danger of your post, and hence the reason I am voting you.

I could also get behind an SC lynch. Pretty shameless wagoning. Rather lynch KortS first though, as theres a connection there now that would reveal info.

Who would you say is scummier, Korts or SC? Personally, I'd say SC, in which case, we should lynch hm first to test the connection, and really consider Korts for the next lynch if SC turns up scum.

Although, I'm not sure how armlx is scummy tbh, he doesn't seem to have done really anything anti-town. He has been accused of setting up multiple lynches, but I don't really find that scummy. If you find a strong connection between two players that imply that if one's scum, the other may well be, then it makes sense to suggest that if one turns up scum if he's lynched, the other should be a serious contender for the next day's lynch. Korts' case against him has a lot of "this isn't much of a point against armlx", which speaks for itself really. And it causes me to think that Korts may well be trying to push a wagon that's based on craplogic and weak/non-existant scumtellls.

Blakadder's a decent target for a wagon I think, his posts have mostly been one-liners with 1 exception. Plus, he gives the air of a cautious scum who doesn't really wish to put anyone's noses out of joint, a good example of the cautious aspect of his posts is this one:

True. I guess I was being a little reckless there.

His bandwagoning also makes me wary of him.

After my reread, I also find myself fairly suspicious of TinVision, he's made 4 posts so far:
1) Has a fairly obvious point about not voting the claimed Masons and a small point against Blakadder.
2) Another small point against Blakadder, not even mentioned other players yet, apart from telling people not to vote rofl and Ironman.
3) A pretty useless point about lynch numbers.
4) Says he's satisfied with Blakadder's answers, which confuses me somewhat, as I can't really see what's satisfying about them, starting to get a feeling of a Tinvision-Blakadder connection, where Tin started with him being fairly anti-Blakadder to throw the town off a little. He then places a lurker vote, which I ABSOLUTELY HATE because a player lurking does not make him any more likely to be scum than town (in fact, I think it may make him LESS likely to be scum) it's an oppotunistic vote because while the player is lurking they cannot defend themselves and they can easily be replaced rather than lynched, and then the replacement can post and we'd be able to decide whether that player is scum or not a lot better than just voting him for lurking, which is simply tantamount to picking a random role out of the hat and lynching them.

I'm fairly tempted to vote Tinvision, and maybe would if it weren't for SC, who's bandwagon hopped like hell (most recently to armlx), kept pressuring rofl long after his claim, only unvoted rofl after peer pressure (which indicates just bending to the towns wishes so as not to cause a major debate about his townness) and of course that major link with Korts, they all persuade me to

Vote: Stranger Coug

.

[JordanA24]

Well fb's no longer in my scumlist...

Seriously, awesome post

[JordanA24]

EBWOP: Finally breached the massive wall of text. Great job there, Forbiddan. This just made scumhunting loads easier.

Btw Blakadder, it's best not to rely on one persons point of view of events in the thread. Fb could be scum and offering a biased point of view towards the game in his posts.

[JordanA24]

Apologies to the mod, I told him I'd post yesterday, and have found myself unexpetedly busy again. I will post an analysis of what's happened hopefully tomorrow if I get time, consider this a post to say I'm still here.

[JordanA24]

That's an opinion, Coug. It doesn't affect his alignment either way. And in the end, discuss it after game. Seriously, you seem to be panicking, throwing accusations around for such little things. If I weren't already voting you I'd vote you now. and an "I've got my eye on you" still indicates suspicion. If it's not scummy, why are you looking at him?

As I said, he wasn't polite in his post. I don't think IGMEOY was the best way to go about it, but I wanted to get his attention.

Don't bother trying to make up excuses, you said someone was scummy for a game theory opinion, nothing to do with his alignment, and your attempts to wriggle out of it just makes it look worse.

For instance, if, say, armlx says that Greasy Spot would be a horrible vig choice, and the vig then kills GS, it's pretty obvious it isn't armlx, isn't it?

What if armlx the Vig (in this instance) is WIFOMing to try to avoid being suspected by the scum as the Vig?

Don't like GS's poorly disguised OMGUS on username for suggesting him as a good lynch target.

unvote, vote Sun Tzu

. If he's scum he'll come totally unglued. Let's try it.

What makes you say this, because he's a newbie? Well, no offense to Sun Tzu or other newbies btw, quite often inexperienced players, regardless of their alignment, panic when put under pressure, one of the main reasons why Day 1's so often end in a town lynch, coupled with lack of info. You as an experienced player should know this. I don't like at all how you picked on Sun Tzu simply for being a newbie, which doesn't at all affect his alignment, nor your fallacy that only newbie-scum panic when placed under pressure, it seems a lot like trying to set up an easy lynch.

HOS: Lowell

.

Vote: StrangerCoug

Not liking how you decide to place your vote on the leading bandwagon when you start to come under pressure.

unvote, vote Sun Tzu

. If he's scum he'll come totally unglued. Let's try it.

I'mnot making any jokes this game.

???

3) I'd like to see the vig hit a complete lurker. Big games like this make it a little too easy for people to just wait out the first 2 days or so. Let's put the fear of god in them.

Already discussed why I hate lurker-targeting...

More votes on the SC wagon would be appropriate. He's still L-3.

"shameless wagoning" hadn't been part of the case until now, interesting. And the vig issue is two-sided. And more.

You really had to make those two posts in close succession, didn't you?

I am the vigilante,

and I killed dcorbe Night 0. Granted, I did it out of spite and I probably could come up with better reasons, but that's who and why.

Unvote

Muertto, why the hell vig IM? Surely the Vig kill should be reserved for someone who the town generally find scummy (who we didn't lynch)

I analyzed you. I didn't get proof.

So if you didn't find anything that was scummy about him, why do you suspect him? There's no grounds to suspect him is there? What you could do instead is show us what posts give you the gut feeling against him and post reasons why this makes you feel uneasy about him.

Shrug you guys wanna lynch me, lynch me. But do it for REAL reasons not this mason crap. I still say if the masons live to LYLO it's insanely dangerous.

Do you really think that if they were fakeclaiming the real Masons wouldn't have counterclaimed them by now? Not going to vote you, since there are better targets, but

FOS: Muerrto

unvote, vote blakadder

. I'm ready to jump on board.

What made you suddenly decide to abandon your drive against Sun Tzu?

I feel that there is almost certainly a connection between Blakadder and Tin (now Orangepenguin), and it's not particularly likely to be a Mason Connection... Tbh, I actually feel Penguin is a better place for my vote, despite the bandwagon on Adder, I'm more sure on Penguin being scum.

Vote: Penguin

Lowell is also looking fairly scummy to me atm.

[JordanA24]

unvote, vote Sun Tzu

. If he's scum he'll come totally unglued. Let's try it.

What makes you say this, because he's a newbie? Well, no offense to Sun Tzu or other newbies btw, quite often inexperienced players, regardless of their alignment, panic when put under pressure, one of the main reasons why Day 1's so often end in a town lynch, coupled with lack of info. You as an experienced player should know this. I don't like at all how you picked on Sun Tzu simply for being a newbie, which doesn't at all affect his alignment, nor your fallacy that only newbie-scum panic when placed under pressure, it seems a lot like trying to set up an easy lynch.

HOS: Lowell

.

Why do you assume that Lowell is doing this because Sun Tzu is a newbie? This is a pretty long rant to come out with based entirely on fabricated motives that you've attributed to Lowell.

Because coming unglued as scum is what newbies are known for doing sometimes, the way he said that made me immediatly think he was doing this because Sun is a newbie.

I feel that there is almost certainly a connection between Blakadder and Tin (now Orangepenguin), and it's not particularly likely to be a Mason Connection... Tbh, I actually feel Penguin is a better place for my vote, despite the bandwagon on Adder, I'm more sure on Penguin being scum.

Vote: Penguin

Could you explain why Tin/penguin seems scummier than BA? Because I'm not seeing anything much against Tin that doesn't entirely depend on BA being scum.

Well tbh, some of what BlakAdder has done can possibly be put down to him being a newbie, some of the mistakes he's making are newbish. Tin however, has been less obviously scummy. On Day 1, I feel that scum tend to try and lay low and not be conspicious, which is how Tin was and how Blak was not, hence I feel Tin/Orange is more likely scum than Blak is.

Worth noting that deadline is in less than a week guys, so if we want to start an Orange bandwagon, it must be done now.

[JordanA24]

He hasn't posted on site in a week, which is probably worth a

Prod Blakadder

.

Agreed, if he turns out to claim a believable power role, then the longer he takes to claim will leave us less time to form another bandwagon.

[JordanA24]

Not sure I believe GS, I agree that if BA claims a believable role, GS is a decent replacement lynch, though I'd obv prefer a ornage lynch over both.

I think we need to organise an official replacement lynch in the eventuality that BA claims something believable, to give ourselves the highest possible chance of making a lynch today.

Also, see sig, this may be the last time I post before we go into Night, but I'll try to get a post in on Tuesday as well.

Has Mod posted a time on the 29th the deadline goes off?

[JordanA24]

sc you should vig muerrto

I was asking ting =), but unless there are any objections I'll lynch Muerrto.

Don't you mean Vigkill?

Slip Up?

Though I agree Muerrto is a good vig kill, anyone else got any suggestions before we hammer BlakAdder?