Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)

[LaptopGun]

Ok I'm here

Let's get this wildfire started.

vote Firestarter

for having an all too appropriate name to begin a game of warm sentiments, hot plans, and flame wars.

[LaptopGun]

n a game of warm sentiments, hot plans, and flame wars.

Sounds like I was on to something.

[LaptopGun]

This may be reaching, but all of a sudden we have a "counter wagon" on armlx. Does seem to be random votes. I would not let this go by without mentioning it as a fair percentage of the comments and actions so far have been off the wall.

[LaptopGun]

armlx. I thought it odd. You should know from Open 60 that I am given to flights of fancy when I see odd things. Regardless I thought my point was worth saying. All that it seems to have done is stoke some actual serious questioning, which is what the town want to begin with. Whatever. Random voting certainly gives plenty of info and I'm always curious if voting isn't so random.

When you say "off the wall" do you mean by his standards (which would be based on meta reads) or by accepted best practices for conducting one's self in a mafia game.

I mean the later not the former (and yeah that's opinion based). I have neither done a meta read of him nor played in the same game with him before. I usually like meta reads, but I've had the luxury of playing with several people from previous games in the ones I've played (and yeah it's only 4 games). I haven't had to read up on a lot of new players previously, at least all at the same time (hello, replacements). Course now I have 1 person I've previously played with and frankly I don't have the time to read up on all of you.

[LaptopGun]

I'm not sure what to make of this, but its a contradiction which jumped out at me.

I just wanted to say I haven't read up on him or had the first hand experience of playing in a game with him before. That's a contradiction how?

The "all I was trying to do was stoke up some serious questioning" sounds like a very weak explanation, and trying to paint himself town.

Yep. Take it or leave it. In hindsight my thoughts were not the most intelligent things to say, but they for a bit were invoking questioning. If all we do is chat about how long it's been since the last post or "All hail Gimbo our fearless leader," I have a hard time believing we are going to find many of the mafia.

You should know from Open 60 that I am given to flights of fancy when I see odd things.

No, I am not familiar with this. Link to an example from that game.

More to come on this. The short story is I felt JustinPlayfiar was acting completely contrary to our previous game together and 2 other players were setting another player up for a misliynch. I wouldn't shut up about it, going so far as to label him the "boogey man." Justin was our cop who was nightkilled that night and I apparently was instrumental in this. Incidentally, the other two players ended up being 2 of the mafia. To make matters worse, I felt Shteven acted bizarrely in agreeing with my statements and for the rest of the game never trusted him. He was town.

Really, then share what you've found so far, coz I must be missing it....

1. People for better or for worse are making a big deal about random voting, including myself. However in my opinion, there is no coloration between what they say and if they are acting pro town or pro mafia.

2. I think the people voting for me are town as they are pointing out flaws in my reasoning. This doesn't seem like the mafia begging for a mislynch.

3. SpyreX is coming off as the voice of reason. Seems to have exactly right thing to say about all the crazy

4. Gimbo hasnt had very good reactions to votes, but the humor and jokes seems to have mellowed him out.

[LaptopGun]

The short story is I felt JustinPlayfiar was acting completely contrary to our previous game together and 2 other players were setting another player up for a misliynch.

I don't remember, was he claimed as cop by then? If not, That is completely different. Metagame based attacks are very valid.

You hadn't replaced into the game yet. This was day 2. Justin never claimed, he just acted what I considered out of character. I was horrifyingly wrong though with crazy ideas. It's a cautionary tale for meta-attacks, but that was largely because my case was much stronger in my mind. And of course he was hiding something... he was just a cop.

We had another cop who basically claimed D1 because one player put some of pressure on him. The cop had gotten lucky in the first investigation and told us the attacker was actually one of the mafia. The cop incidentally lasted for a few days (reasoning, I don't know.)

When I get off my ass, I'll provide direct quotes for this. Probably 3 or 4 should suffice.

[LaptopGun]

I've only played in one other game on this site so far, and the lynches were: D1 the mafia godfather, D2 the serial killer, and D3 the mafia roleblocker.

I think it's a big mistake to assume we can't find scum on the first day.

Ok you're the Rainmaker. Lead the way please.

[LaptopGun]

I don't like Killa's reaction. I have a hard time believing it's a good idea for intentionally voting for someone you think is town.

To that end,

UNVOTE

[LaptopGun]

The alternative to this, and its something thats 50:50 regardless of your ploy, is that you are scum trying to attract an over-aggressive townie.

I didn't think of this. It would attract a ton of attention along with it, but it would in theory validate a scum as town for being attacked. They just need to separate themselves from the mislynch. To be fair, I am sceptical about this. It seems a tad on the suicidal side if it doesn't work. Moreover, they're probably not going to live down that they tried it.

Still it seems both forbiddanlight and Killa were gambling for something.

[LaptopGun]

Sorry for the absense.

Here's the 1st 2 posts of my attempt to justify it
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7165
2 from page 11

@ Justin, I need a bit of clarification from you. I found your analysis of kabenon reasonable and certainly needs addressing. However I find it's at odds with what you told him previously in post 162 (fyi page 7). You talk about his suspicions of Shteven and specifically talk about the logic of the hypotetical freudian slip. I do not mean to suggest that this is bad analysis. What I want to know is, why does this not appear on your subsequent post explaining a whole host of new problems with kabenon? It seems you relegated it to a throwaway line about k's attacks on shteven. I would think that that only helps your case even more that kabeon never responded to you directly. He attempted to clarify it to others (such as Fonz, Vokan, and Farside when they questioned him) but you have not followed that line of questioning your self. Are you saying that as you put it "Quick thoughts" have been surpassed?

Relevent posts quoted below:

Quick thoughts:

Kabenon,

I understand what you’re going for with Shteven, but the problem here is two-fold. First, to have real meaning the kind of slip you’re suggesting here would either have to be part of a pattern of behavior or be far more blatant in thinking of a situation from a scum perspective. Second, in and of itself, Shteven’s statement doesn’t approach the issue from the perspective you’re suggesting it does. I mean, from any reasonable examination of the situation it would seem most likely that Jesse Gunn would have been doctor protected last night.

Given that Shteven, even if he were scum, could not know that Jesse Gunn was protected last night if as scum he killed another target, and given that it would seem a logical assumption for town or scum that Jesse Gunn would be protected for anyone playing regardless of alignment, why would you consider what Shteven said to be particularly indicative of a scummy slip?

I was a bit curious about Vollkan’s vote on Kabenon. Having reread the thread to check on Vollkan I find myself now a bit more curious about Kabenon.

Kabenon,

The fact that you have made the following two posts so early in our proceedings is of interest to me:

A word of warning Phate, vollkan always gives off town vibes...

And then later, giving an example:

I agree that a particular scumtell, or even town tell, cannot be placed on everyone. Take vollkan for instance. His large posts, contentful, appear pro-town. But he also does them when he is scum. I want to wait for a recent vote count before I vote, mostly because I don't have time to check myself. (I'm lazy and busy, sue me!)

All right, so you have warned us twice that Vollkan may be scum however town he may seem. Do you have any reasons for suspecting Vollkan beyond his usually seeming town that would warrant two warnings about him in the first nine pages?

So I guess I have two questions about this.


Who are you waiting on a vote count to vote on? You’ve already voted Shteven, making a rather persistent case against him. Is it Vollkan, which might be suggested by the linkage in the above post, or someone else?

Does your above statement about waiting to vote mean that you no longer believe the vote you already have on Shteven is appropriate?

This post bothers me some:

Just expressing my opinion, Shteven. That way, when people ask what it was, I can go back and point to a specific spot and say, Look there it is! Instead of saying "Well, judging from how I worded this post, I felt XXX." Much more concrete, more helpful to the town.

First, because the post you made which you are referring to here is this:

I think we should keep the idea that Jesse might be scum in the back of our minds, just as a last thought kind of thing. We can scum hunt without worrying about it too much. If we can't figure it out, we can always go back and examine him thoroughly later.

If you could please explain both how saying that Jesse might be scum or he might not but we can find out later is “concrete”, and how it is “helpful to town”. I understand how it might later be useful to you.

Finally there is this, in response to Farside22 asking you about your suspicions of Wesaq:

Why do you want to know?

While it is perfectly appropriate to ask the question you are asking in return, it would also have been appropriate to answer Farside22’s question. In this case it actually would provide something “Much more concrete, more helpful to the town”.

Why did you choose not to answer Farside22’s question?

Anyway, thank you for any answers provided. For now:

Vote: Kabenon007

My second one:

Shteven I didn't want to bring it up until Justin returned and answered my question, but it's what I've been noticing. Justin hasn't acted like himaself since he "pressured" our resident cop to reveal a scum (and by result himself as cop). I don't know what's up but I miss his posts. He really does a great job with things... but that's the problem. I imagine h'd be a wicked good mafia goon.

[LaptopGun]

Direct Link for page 11

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=250

Again more to come. Sorry this has taken awhile, I picked a good time to go on vacation to visit friends

[LaptopGun]

Direct link for page 12

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=275
Justin’s response:

Farside,

About this:

Justin, I need a bit of clarification from you. I found your analysis of kabenon reasonable and certainly needs addressing. However I find it's at odds with what you told him previously in post 162 (fyi page 7). You talk about his suspicions of Shteven and specifically talk about the logic of the hypotetical freudian slip. I do not mean to suggest that this is bad analysis. What I want to know is, why does this not appear on your subsequent post explaining a whole host of new problems with kabenon? It seems you relegated it to a throwaway line about k's attacks on shteven. I would think that that only helps your case even more that kabeon never responded to you directly. He attempted to clarify it to others (such as Fonz, Vokan, and Farside when they questioned him) but you have not followed that line of questioning your self. Are you saying that as you put it "Quick thoughts" have been surpassed?

Just a bit curious about this:

However I find it's at odds with what you told him previously in post 162 (fyi page 7).

To be at odds would generally be construed to mean “contradicts”. If this is what you mean can you point out how anything in my later post contradicts what was in the previous one? If you do I would be pleased to answer.

About this:

What I want to know is, why does this not appear on your subsequent post explaining a whole host of new problems with kabenon?

I think you answer this yourself just after:

He attempted to clarify it to others (such as Fonz, Vokan, and Farside when they questioned him)

Most especially, in this case, his exchange with Vollkan. I dislike asking the precise same questions another player is already asking, for a number of reasons. Although it seems all right to me, sometimes, to return to the same questions at a later time to see if someone’s answers have “evolved”, pursuing this line heavily at the same time it was being pursued by another seems more designed to crack someone regardless of alignment than to find scum.

This troubles me just a bit:

I would think that that only helps your case even more that kabeon never responded to you directly.

I don’t think my case wants that kind of help. Kabenon was answering questions about his accusation against Shteven. To pursue him for not addressing his answers to me in particular would be persecution, not investigation. If you would, could you explain to me what value this would have other than to try to force a lynch regardless of Kabenon’s alignment?

Finally:

Are you saying that as you put it "Quick thoughts" have been surpassed?

Well, my quick thoughts were expressed. But certainly I am more suspicious of Kabenon007 for the behavior I pointed out in my later post than I am for the poor accusation of Shteven.

My response:

Hey Justin. I thank you for getting back to me and addressing my concerns. I hope I can answer what you asked. Moreover, I'm gonna have to put my cards on the table I don't like the polarization of this thread. It seems the

1. Contradicts seems not to be the best word choice. It is not an out and out 180; I see it as an inconsistancy in your questioning. What I was trying to get across was that it would have made more sense if you continued with the issues you brought up. You are a logical person and enjoy using it, so there seemed to be a classic oppertunity for you.

2. You seem to be better than most posters at phrasing things. I don't mean to take anything away from my fellow posters, but there I said it. You tend to be excellent at it. You commenting other's posts is pretty good, even if it's just echoing it.

3. I think some of the other posters have been persecuting him. You don't seem to be, but then agin you are letting others speak.

4.The evolution thing can reveal major differences. I wouldn't rely on it unless it seemed key evidence, but I by no means dismiss it out of hands.

5. Ok there's a 1000 pound elephant in the room and I can't avoid it anymore. I do not like letting a small cadre of other posters explain what you said or want to continue to say. There is a really large anti-kabeon sentiment right now. You may not be the spearhead, but it really gained momentum when you first questioned him. I have to decide if the mafia are trying to wagon him. However I have to wonder if they benefited from your always piecing analysis or if you deliberately set this up. Yes I am trying to add things up. Both have some evidence backing them up.

And then there is the third possibility, that I'm completely wrong. No mafia are in on it and I'm slowing up the lynching of scum. I don't know how this would play out. Here's a freebie- your reactions to my questioning look genuinely townie. I never said Kabeon007 seemed innocent to me. He's a suspect. I need to question him and I need to get to it. I talk too much, I post too much. But I want to be heard. I don't go quietly into the night.

[LaptopGun]

No. I just didn't bother getting around to this. I got a couple more things I promised to share and then I'll be caught up on that. Then I'll add my two cents on the hilarious developments.

Direct link page 42
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1025

I am not surprised dcorbe was the right lynch

I like Volkan's lie/play/gambit because I really wanted the SK found out. Besides the obvious clearing of my name, I would have liked the idea of going after the mafia assuming the SK would cooperate.

My list of Probable townies: Volkan, armix, Rigel (these should be obvious)
Neutral: iamausername
Currently neutral but my gut feelings require me to qualify my selection: Shteven
Decent suspects: Fonz, dahill1

iamausername: Seems genuine, but cavalier attitude. Sticks to the facts. I know nothing else unfotunately, the vote record doesn't tell me a whole lot either. The bigest pro town indicator I see is that when he says something, it is almost always important to the situation. In other words, I don't see deception. There's a pro town vibes here, with a few question marks.

Shteven has largely been largely pro town since day 2. However, I can't get over how he readily agreed with my boogey man claims on Justin. I also cant get over that Justin then turned up dead. This is utterly a gut feeling here, and it contradicts how I view the rest of his actions. He was right on my argument on the similarities on the wagon, which is to say there were not really anything like I thought.

Fonz: He doesn't match up to my previous experiences with him. His play is all over the place, as I said before. I'm getting mixed indicators from both his town and mafia play, which makes me think he's the SK

dahil: What haven't I said already? Latest actions on the surface could be seen as pro town- pointing out that (correctly) that dcorbe was a lying mafia. On the other hand, he could have just been bussing a scum partner who he felt was too suspcious to try to save.

ABWOP

When I say "He was right on my argument on the similarities on the wagon," I was talking about the Kab wagon to the dcorbe one. In my last post I saw somethings that looked familiar in and he critqued it that they probably werent.

[LaptopGun]

I can provide more if anyone wants/needs more, these were just the ones that I remembered or struck me as appropriate while searching. Several posters and myself referred to my JustinPlayfair fiasco as my "boogey man" argument.

Alright on to more current matters. forbiddanlight looks more and more scummy the more and more she talks. I am not sure I find her self vote action extremely scummy. The thing that really sinks her in my eyes is her reactions. Some of them seem to be pulling motives or lines of thinking out of thin air. I haven't made up my mind, but something is just oddball with her.

[LaptopGun]

Alright. I'm really interested in seeing what you have to say. There's a lot of odd around for you to take flights of fancy with .

I appreciate the sentiment. It seems like there are sometimes I really should just keep my mouth shut with some of my thoughts.

[LaptopGun]

Yep. Take it or leave it. In hindsight my thoughts were not the most intelligent things to say, but they for a bit were invoking questioning. If all we do is chat about how long it's been since the last post or "All hail Gimbo our fearless leader," I have a hard time believing we are going to find many of the mafia.

This comment that early in the game, guuah, looks strange. Like the guy who sighs at the mountain of work in front of him...

People for better or for worse are making a big deal about random voting, including myself. However in my opinion, there is no coloration between what they say and if they are acting pro town or pro mafia.

Did you say that to be sure you will blend in the mix?

I think the people voting for me are town as they are pointing out flaws in my reasoning. This doesn't seem like the mafia begging for a mislynch.

Are you that insecure about your position or role?

SpyreX is coming off as the voice of reason. Seems to have exactly right thing to say about all the crazy.

I'd say he looks crazy more than anyone else doing that, because everyone's MEANT to be a little weird in the preliminary stages. Shortly after, SpyreX answers all the points, although they weren't meant to be answered. Strange... Possible connection between those two?

1. It was a bit of work. I had a backlog because of the vacation. Sorry. Still, as an English major, I like the simile .

2. I was speaking the truth. If I was trying to blend in, I'm doing a poor job of it.

3. Very much my position at the time. I've come to live with the sometimes bizarre or paranoid behavior I've done as a townie.

4. SpyreX seemed noteworthy at the time as the most logical person a the time. Still seems that way. On the whole, there has been a lot better discussion such as those on a "person of interest" like forbiddanlight. I guess it's just the usual progression that people are just acting less weird with more substanial stuff to talk about.

[LaptopGun]

Thats definitely good enough LTG. You are justified from page 2.

Thanks. Good to hear.

[LaptopGun]

@ Joubert. Sorry I am apparently rubbing you the wrong way.

If the FL/FS fracas is a scum gambit, it's very very very risky. FL seems the scummier of the two. I'm seeing FS as aggressive townie.

[LaptopGun]

I meant to say the FL/Killa7 one. I do see firestarter as an aggressive townie and killa is looking par for the course of this game . On a completely tangitally related note, it's possible FL/FS connection does exist. I just can't see anything gained out of that gambit for the risk, on top of that hell fire and brimstone being tossed around didn't seem fake.

[LaptopGun]

I take issue with one of Knight of Cydonia's comments about FL, about the wish. Yeah, FL did seem to provide an interpretation of your comments favorable to him. It's possible that FL's behavior if town leaves openings for the mafia to expose. Yeah. But by the same token, it may be possible to catch the mafia in the trap. ie someone obviously trying to distance themselves from the lynchee, slip of the tongue, busing a partner, self-serving motives, etc. Now I find FL a town has a low order of probability. Don't get me wrong. But lets see where this goes. I don't see an openig where the mafia would be using this to their advantage: if you see one, point it out.

Firestarter -suggests- that forbid could be scum trying to attract townies (but doesn't FoS or vote).

Laptop unvotes (doesn't revote) and in his next post says: Still it seems both forbiddanlight and Killa were gambling for something.

BOTH of these players are, by wording, suggesting a scum is in the forbid/k7 setup. Yet, neither are willing to vote.

Seems incredibly likely FL is scum. I've never been comfortable with kila7. I don't see much reason behind their actions. I don't see a possibility BESIDES that one or the both were gambling. Gambling for what? I think FL really wanted to attract agressive players. kila seems to have wanted to get a better sense of other people and a proverbial shot across the bow would appear to be an interesting course of action. And Hell, they both could be mafia who staged that discussion to try to set up a mislynch. I've said that sounds stupidly suicidal (and the rancore of evryone didnt seem staged either).

[LaptopGun]

Well Gimbo just went up a few ticks on my scum radar. Question to people who played with him before: Is he normally such a joker? Seems scummy to me.

Anyhow, I can't believe FL was town. I wasn't ready to hammer because I wanted to see wht else would happen. However, her later posts, basically the last 4 before she got hammered, DID seem to be genuine. I imagine that she would still be alive if she had immediately talked like that when confronted by Killa7.

Speaking of whom, I believe we need to focus on him. I was not thrilled with his newest response. Rehashing your old argument. Lovely. But the situation change and yet you stick by it. You imagine everyone else thinks your points, regardless of validity, are fine enough. Or perhaps you think we are all mind readers or can interprete what you would say without new input with you. I'm being flipant, but come on and speak up. You don't put up with a cheeseburger that's been reheated a couple times by a resturant when you place an order, do you?

I am not sure whether to consider him a lurker. What I do know is Killa has been obvious in his absence. Distancing himself from he FL wagon? Too busy schedule in his "real life?" Not wanting to deal with people asking him a ton of questions about his behavior and hope things blow over? I got no clue, but I think he needs to do some talking.

FOS Killa 7

[LaptopGun]

I am beginning to think I should just vote for Killa7 and hope that that acts as some sort of pressure to bring him back.

@SpyreX, I think I would probably be the least effective lurker in mafia history and a very poor mafia goon at that. That said, you're right that I need to be more willing to vote more. I am kind of gun shy when it comes to be those things (if you really really want me to pull out more meta things, I will, but I think you guys are sick of me doing that after what I've done so far). You bring up two points about Farielord that I have to agree with...

Faerie has been "active" but the PbA sure dont hide this business...

So, after pushing on the Forbidden lynch, but never voting (because they rarely vote) very quickly a vote is placed on Manito. I dont like this at all.
...

You were complaining that not posting up the cases was scummy, so I posted them, and you are still complaining?

It was, at least to me, an obvious overreaction since it would have been impossible to hammer Faerie. Why overreact this much?

The Manlito/FaerieLord fight is starting to resemble Kila7/FL fight. You have most of the town lining up against the player who has changed the most and reacted the worst. It sounds like Faerie was caught off guard by Manlito. My experience suggest that the people who react badly are mafia who have been caught off guard or inexperienced townies. Faerie isn't inexperienced.

GIMBO/LlamaFluff: I am inclined to listen to others and believe that Gimbo's general playstyle was setting off my radar. Noting directly sinister about it, and if I am understanding other people, he acted the same whether he was scum or town. Still he had some actions that are crazy enough to really confuse me. Llama at least sounds more civil if not even-keel. Problem is...

Firestarter: I am thinking town because he is sticking to his guns and I don't see any of his reasons that jump out at me. Replacement opportunities are a decent pretext for a mafia to skip out and flip flop away from an innocent vote. Sounds like he's in for the long haul. Yeah it's not the strongest indicator for town, Hell it could probably be exploited by an adept mafia player, but I'm thinking Firestarter is town.

[LaptopGun]

I'm probably not going to be able to post tomorrow. Going into Boston all day for the Red Sox game (at night), and chances of me having internet access is slim to none.

Vote: Killa 7

Persistent lurker needs some motivation to come back, I guess. I'm gonna stipulate that I do not believe that, unlike what Llama thinks, Killa 7 was not groomed to be the topic of the day by one of the other suspects. I don't think it's the case at all, but if anyone has some further thoughts on it I'm glad to hear them.

I'm running out of fingers to count all of the people who are not drawing conclusions on the dirt they dig up, Hell I need to do a better job of it. This is really turning into a null tell for this game if everyone keeps doing it.

Just to clarify for Llama and others: I did go wicked overboard constructing a meta defense for arlmx. At the time it seemed perfectly reasonable I don't consider FS scum, behavior is telling me town. Not liking Gimbo/Llama, but evidence seems to support Gimbo always act that way and Llama hasn't done anything wrong in my eyes.

[LaptopGun]

I'm back. Red Sox win. All is good.

It's good we have someone pointing out flaws in Manito. It seems most others who talked about the M/FL spat seem to focus on FL. I'd like to hear both sides, unlike what we got for the last lynch. <waits for Manito to claim CF's defense of FL is a sign they're both mafia>

I'm gonna stipulate that I do not believe that, unlike what Llama thinks, Killa 7 was not groomed to be the topic of the day by one of the other suspects.

Hahaha. Gotta love those double negatives. Please excuse the bad grammar. I was trying to say that I do not believe killa 7 was deliberately set up to be a topic of the day by the mafia (implying that he's town and thus a patsy).

[LaptopGun]

Just a question for Llama: Have you switched votes because Knight has acted scummier than Manito, have you just changed your mind about Manito, or something else?

I guess my biggest thing is I see more to your case that Manito is scum than KoC. It looks like you have switched to a weaker case and I'd like to be able to understand the reasoning.

[LaptopGun]

Where in the world is Carmen Sandiago... I mean Killa7

Fair enough Llama. Certainly keep your eyes peeled.

Anyone want to hear my meta read on armlx? Good. Manito brings up an interesting point and maybe I can contribute on it. In the game I played with armlx, he replaced into it and was the serial killer. He started out being low key and remained non committal. However, he did a complte 180 when he smelled blood in the water. One of the mafia was Oman and he asked to be replaced because he had no time. The replacement was given absolutely no time fro a re-read. Arlmx kept peppering the replacement with questions. He would not take no for an answer and believed nothing. It was an all out interrogation. The mafia person was lynched. Actually, some of the interrogation sounded like how forbbidenlight got treated. So what does that tell me? His current behavior is totally consistant with his playstyle of an antitown role. Yeah we only have mafia in this game. But he was cool like the other side of the pillow once and was prepared to change gears when there was an opportunity. Nothing he's said in this thread sounded like the interrogation. Course maybe he's just biding his time.

FOS armlx

[LaptopGun]

Farie, that's good to know armlx acts the same way regardless.

Also, LTG, SK meta is far different from mafia meta. The SK's goal is VERY different from the mafia's goal. As SK, especially in that scenario from that game, there was no reason for me not to be finding scum as otherwise they would be a killing group that was ahead of me in the game. Mafia would just be looking for an easy lynch in that scenario, not a lynch on a scummy person.

Ok. I was being far too general. I've never played an anti-town role, but I imagine a few of the tells are the same. Still I was being too categorical.

[LaptopGun]

I don't like how Farie is bending over backwards to try to prove he hasn't acted scummy at least at some points. This doesn't look good...

[LaptopGun]

UNVOTE

I'll get back to killa7 at some point as he has been pretty much the poster child for lurking. Problem is, armlx has the gall to do all this and more

Now I need

Vote: armlx

I absolutely hate how you are dancing around people's questions when you are here. I feel you have only answered one question in day 2 completely, and that was my comment about the meta read. While you were and are right that your play as a serial killer would not be a very strong indicator of mafia, and I won't get into a WIFOM argument over why could be in your best interest to prove it, you are nonetheless being a little gadfly of a lurker. You pop up when there is an interesting opening then leave. Or you say enough to seem to be there. I like how you turn to a non-commital "null tell" to defend FL. And what prey-tell is your criteria for deciding it's a good or bad lynch anyway?

I may not be Oman and follow "Lynch All Lurkers" above everything, but this is just terrible. And you're not the only one either.

[LaptopGun]

LTG seems to think that voting K7 for no other reason than to make him active seems a good idea. Says he would be the most ineffective lurker in the history of the game, and a poor mafia goon to boot. Gives thoughts on Manito/FL, Gimbo/LF and Firestarter.

Thoughts

Not alot to work on in this page, but throws up a theory that the Manito/FL argument reminds him of the K7/Forbidden debate. Does this imply that a townie is about to be lynched? Im not so sure at this point.

It's what I was worried about at this point. I was thinking at the time Farie's behavior was similar to when pressed the behavior changed a bit. Also Manito for a bit was dropping below the radar like killa 7. The similarities is what has me leery about the Farie wagon.

[LaptopGun]

@armlx Dropping cases or leaving them unexplained. Firestarter has done a better job at this. Also you’ve ignored the calls of offering any general opinions, such as those by Llama and Spyrex. You’re opinion on Manito has wavered to say the least. I find the one original opinion you’ve had on the Farie wagon is little more than saying ‘what you see is a null tell.” Or in the same league as, “Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain …”
I will say this, I can understand what you say by having laziness. I have it and I’m sure everyone else is. However, that’s not good enough to use as a blanket statement to absolve you of all of what people have raised about you. It’s no get out of jail free card.

[LaptopGun]

Interesting thoughts there about your so-called Triforce. So does that make you Link or Ganon? My problem is it's an awfully big risk to put quite a few eggs in one basket, like the mafia would have to do, to basically line up against FL. I'm always leery when someone suggests possible suicidal plots if they go wrong incredibly early in a game. I also have to caution that you are leading the town towards a case of "let's all lynch these guys and ignore everyone else." Your "hit list," as it were, is basically inviting us to tunnel in on these guys and that may not be the best thing from the town's point of view. Trying to create "theories of everything" to explain the progressions of wagons and how the mafia operates never works out. The reasons for courses of actions can be totally wrong and details are never exactly right. Let alone, random chance and mob mentality. It's an awfully big risk for the town as well. If we're wrong we could end up with a lot of mislynches.

So borge evidently likes me. :rolleyes: Great.

FOS Borge

for no discernible reasons or content.

Armlx finally answered stuff. I'm not going to pin a medal on his chest, but at least he has the common decency to show up.

[LaptopGun]

So I have three players who I consider suspects, who seem to of set up a FL lynch day one while getting fl lynched, who are now tunneled in on the same player, I really dont know what to be doing except for trying to get them lynched.

2 problems: I don't see a setup by Corinth as part of the mislynch D1 and point of view really has a massive impact on this discussion. Corinth definitely has the chronic lurking then brief return mudslinging disease. But I don't see any connection to the mislynch. You admit there isn't much there then try to bridge a connection where there doesn't look to be one. I don't see it. Corinth seems to have another connection to your other two suspects. Perhaps not all 3 are mafia and the actual mafia goon(s) wanted to blend in with the behavior of what the the townies were doing. I agree, the triforce's behavior and similarities have been and are discussion worthy. Just don't push your reasoning too far, like I have an annoying habit of doing. Number 2 is that the mafia are trying to do the same thing . Someone could just as easily call scum on you for your actions. We all judge each other's behavior to consider if it's scum hunting or scum meddling. You however seem to be much more likely the former as you are open to discussion. Be careful pushing this thing though as it stands to reason it could be hijacked, like all good intentions in the game of Mafia.

[LaptopGun]

So nobody cares that FaerieLord basically admitted he was going to hammer forbiddan, despite the fact about a page earlier, and ever since, he claimed he was leaning misguided town in her? Sod the rest of the case: HE SAID HE WOULD HAVE HAMMERED SOMEONE HE CONSIDERED TOWN. The only reason he would have for that is: he's scum.

shit

I'm not going to call you out on it.

I was going to do it pretty soon myself.

Now, onto better things

Vote: Manito

Farie has an explanation for that... "Ummm, but if she was still alive we'd be stuck on her and do nothing so it was a productive kill..." (Productive for who?) It's not very good, but it was already pointed out. You're right though, it looks awfully scummy to want to lynch someone who you think is town.

SOMETIMES NO-ONE CHANGES VOTES WITHIN THE PERIOD OF 25 POSTS

FaerieLord - 3 (SpyreX, Manito, Corinthian)
armlx - 2 (Firestarter, LaptopGun)
killa seven - 1 (CF Riot)
Manito - 1 (FaerieLord)
LlamaFluff - 1 (Firestarter)
Firestarter - 1 (armlx)
Corinthian - 1 (LlamaFluff)
LaptopGun - 1 (Bogre)
Bogre - 1 (Knight of Cydonia)

Not Voting - Joubert, killa seven, BlckKnght, TheSweatpantsNinja

15 alive, 8 to lynch.

-Mod

[LaptopGun]

The "vote people to get them to post more" actually seems to be working.

I'd like to hear what Borge has to say about me, if he ever gets back. I'd like to know if he just tossed my name out to be all scummy. :rolleyes:

[LaptopGun]

^ that statement was scummy in itself.
lets lynch killa if hes scum ill listen to whatever u have to say? wtf?
and what makes u think me and coron would be partners because we both have lurked? yea buddy great analysis.

koc attacking me for lurking while his buddy FL is layin low going unnoticed is severly noted.

Killa 7 makes 2 good comments in a very short amount of time? Wow.

[LaptopGun]

A lot of people have FS on their lists, but Arm is the only one voting him. He seems to be a consistant #2 for everybody. I'm up for a FS wagon if it will gain some steam.

Vote: Firestarter

I am not sure that is the best way to go about things. If armlx is mafia, then he is most likely voting a townie. He is certainly a usual suspect, but becareful just going for the "me too" vote. Mislynches can be started by a perfectly honest townie picking up on stuff.

More stuff to come.

[LaptopGun]

koc attacking me for lurking while his buddy FL is layin low going unnoticed is severly noted.

FL is far from going unnoticed.... If you are paying attention, you'd know that.
Why dont you bother actually doing something then... eh?

I disagree. A lot of discussion has been focused on other people and FL isn't really taking a lead in advancing alternate theories (maybe because he has been hounded). He's just there and hasn't disturbed what else is going on.

Point taken.

I don't trust armlx and killa 7. I think they have both been lurking far too much. Both of course have in literally the last couple days have taken pains to be more active and (mostly armlx) helpful. armlx was certainly quicker to respond (did killa really ever respond directly to me?)

My random musings:
Something I have learned is my votes to push the lurkers was followed by them showing up. There appears to be no immediate cause and effect between my vote and killa's return. But Armlx jumped right back. Killa never really responded to me either. Armlx did. One felt I was worth talking to

Borge vote without reason: Is he one of the mafia acting as a proxy for one of his partners? That is, lay a vote on me and hope a counter wagon pops up? I know no logic really makes it stand out, but that sort of does have the effect of not tieing Borge to the wagon either. There is another factor: use the vote to try to scare me away. I have been a bit sheepish and have looked pretty bizarre to begin with. Perhaps the thinking is I'll run and hide so I don't bring a lot of attention or give people openings to attack me. If this were true, it would indicate I was right with at least one of my suspects recently.

Armlx, Killa, FL, and Llama's Trifecta of KoC Corin Manito. With Borge. That's a lot to wade through.

I'll be back later with more (argh I hate getting interrupted).

[LaptopGun]

Unfortunately I don't see any direct connections between these suspects and Borge. I didn't notice anybody buddy up or distance away from him to begin with. Looking at this list I do see lurkers with potential frontmen/hide in plain sight guys. You know, the active mafia . Potentially Manito or KoC.

This was just me trying to reconcile what I've been thinking recently.

FOS Killa, FL, KoC, Corin, Manito, and Borge

I am keeping my vote right where it is because I see no reason to change it from one of my suspects.

[LaptopGun]

I am not sure that is the best way to go about things. If armlx is mafia, then he is most likely voting a townie.

No

Why not? I don't see a real opportunity for one partner to be busing another here. Moreover, at this stage of the game when random votes are gone, one mafia player is not normally going to stick his vote on a partner. Some calculated gambit, trap, or the aforementioned busing are not happening every third post for crying out loud! I am going by probability here.

Or are you going to say most mafia players don't vote very often to begin with to try to figure this stuff out?

[LaptopGun]

LTG, what do you think of my interaction with Firestarter's reflection upon Firestarter's alignment outside of my own?

Ok. Firestarter sounds different than when talking with you. He sounds much more on guard when talking with you. Whether that's because you two are just arguing with him or have found something of merit is something I can't for sure say until we find out his role (lynch, nk, or end of game). I think he's town (whether my probability argument is valid or not). That said, you did catch him fence siting and he doesn't seem to have a problem with it. He only dismisses that saying it's solely interpretation. I find it odd how he says he's been scum hunting for (ie FL), but that too is open to interpretation. FL was town, obviously, and his "scumhunting" ended up mislynching. The same could be said about his attempt to get you lynched. I also find his distinction between scum tells and null tells a bit self serving. "It's 50-50, so let's claim armlx is scum." He also never responded to that one up so I'm gonna

FOS Firestarter

.

Great. I've now FOS'ed like half the people in this game in the past 24 hours.

[LaptopGun]

Saw this while reviewing

God I hate you, Llama.

Me, Manito, and KoC have all gotten votes from you based on the idiotic idea that it's all right to vote for someone to pressure them into responding to you.

I refuse to respond to that kind of bullshit.

I'd hardly call voting for pressure "idiotic". It seems to have dredged up armlx, k7, borge, and you. Llama could very well be 1000% wrong about you or mafia guy trying to set you up, but nonetheless the practice works.

[LaptopGun]

Yes I think you are town. No, I am not voting for you. And no, you definately did not answer what I said. Nobody is perfect. Take it easy. I was responding to what armlx wanted to know. Armix is scum, but don't outright dodge what other people have to say. It. Looks. Scummy.

For what its worth, I do tend to think outloud. I do play devil's advocate. I do take things past the point of absurdity. Like i said your're town in my eyes but dont get all bent out of shape when i say something. I think you're one of the good guys, just don't act (or react) badly.

[LaptopGun]

Firestarter, are you ever gonna stop flip flopping on me? This scum - > bad townie when they make the case back - > scum read charade is the EXACT same thing you did D1.

Yup, I like to speak out loud..

Very funny Firestarter.

[LaptopGun]

K7 has now thrown koc under the bus and he isn't the only won lurking. But damn it, he is right that he isn't the only one. Then again he's been scummy for eons and the mafia would be desperate to cast scruituny on anyone else. Hmmm, still looks scummy to me.

[LaptopGun]

Im keeping my vote right where it is until I have or see a better case.

[LaptopGun]

2.) I can't pinpoint it, but there seems to be, in reading, a connection between Firestarter and LaptopGun - I'll have to do a deeper analysis to why, but reading their posts thats sure the feeling I got.

I've agreed with several things he's said. I've also agreed with you in similar fashion.

[LaptopGun]

For what it's worth, Corin didn't respond to me in post 731 either. I called "bullshit" on his reasoning. He's posted once since then it was a vote.

I am not getting into another discussion about metas because I think I took the last one past the point of absurdity.

[LaptopGun]

Almost forgot...

FOS Corin

for dodging and bad reasoning.

[LaptopGun]

This is getting ridiculous. I am sorry way back when I focused on metas. Its stopping us from doing serious discussion and hunting. It would not surprise me if the mafia restarted it to divde the town. Let's stop it and focus on the matter we have.

We a couple wagons that are all neck and neck. Do we see any connections between the suspects? Or the voters?

Thats the thing though. The scum are NEVER going to kill him and this will be brought up every day and pish poshed away.

I'm willing to reconsider him once we hit a scum and can see how they linked to him.

Arm, the mafia would use the thinking. A mafia goon who just lost his partner would like there to be disscussion away from the mafia in total or at least himself as an individual.

[LaptopGun]

Arm, the mafia would use the thinking. A mafia goon who just lost his partner would like there to be disscussion away from the mafia in total or at least himself as an individual.

Can you clarify what this means?

When one mafia goes down, the other ones would probably want to make sure neither of themselves come under scrutiny. They'd like to throw anyone else under the bus and get a mislynch. It's like the rats on the Titanic.

[LaptopGun]

When one mafia goes down, the other ones would probably want to make sure neither of themselves come under scrutiny.

I get what you are trying to say, but aren't the mafia ALWAYS trying to do that?

Yes. And you said that you were only willing to talk about another player when someone turned mafia. Sounds awfully familiar to me.

[LaptopGun]

Firestarter, I mean you said something a mafia player would want to happen. Seems like a slipup to me. That in my mind says you are mafia.

[LaptopGun]

My pick for flavor of the month for scum is Corin. K7 has been horrible, Corin just happens to pretend that valid points people raise either don't exist or are completely illogical. I'd think the artful dodger is more scummy right now.

That said, I stick by my current vote of armlx because I believe he is scum.

[LaptopGun]

No, I am stupid and wrote Firestarter instead of armlx. I need to stop posting after work when I’m in a bad mood. I got nothing on Firestarter, I am concerned about armlx.

Argh! This is where it started, arm and sprye talking about K7. I think armlx has a very mafia-like train of thought here and I see it as a slipup.

Thats the thing though. The scum are NEVER going to kill him and this will be brought up every day and pish poshed away.

I'm willing to reconsider him once we hit a scum and can see how they linked to him.

Arm, the mafia would use the thinking. A mafia goon who just lost his partner would like there to be disscussion away from the mafia in total or at least himself as an individual.

Can you clarify what this means?

When one mafia goes down, the other ones would probably want to make sure neither of themselves come under scrutiny. They'd like to throw anyone else under the bus and get a mislynch. It's like the rats on the Titanic.

I get what you are trying to say, but aren't the mafia ALWAYS trying to do that?

Yes. And you said that you were only willing to talk about another player when someone turned mafia. Sounds awfully familiar to me.

I don't get what you are saying here.

Firestarter, I mean you said something a mafia player would want to happen. Seems like a slipup to me. That in my mind says you are mafia.

[LaptopGun]

Sorry it took a while to get this written out right, Firestarter.

[LaptopGun]

armlx, I am sorry that this is evidently really hard to follow. I feel you reacted as a mafia player would. Plain and simple. You won't entertain a particularly suspect player until one of the mafia is found out and lynched. I think it is fair to say the heat is onto the mafia when one of them is lynched. In that case, it would be a good thing to have another suspect to throw out to throw the town off the trail. Or that's how I see your whole comment about not wanting to vote K7 right now. "K7 should be saved for later to be lynched when a hypothetical partner has gone down." Or in my interpretation when one of YOUR partners has gone down you want to distract US the town from taking you and your other partner down. It's your (both in a personal sense and in the entire mafia sense) backup plan or ace in the hole.

Y'know, the more I think about it, the more I feel like the really telling thing about the k7 and corin wagons is that corin is voting for k7, but k7 isn't voting for corin. One of these two is reaching to the obvious target and one of them isn't. So my vote will stay.

I didn't see things that way before, but that is a fascinating point. K7 isn't voting in OMGUS or anything like that. Combined with my belief armlx and his cronies are setting K7 up to be a fall guy, I have serious considerations that my earlier suspicions about K7 were wrong.

[LaptopGun]

I dont see any harm in the list idea

1. armlx
2. corin
I then really don't have a hard candidate for a #3. KOC or Joubert, I guess.

I'll think some more on that.

[LaptopGun]

So arm, you're just going to deny that my belief applies to you? Sounds an awful lot like Corin and Joubert. ANd I don't see how you can say that. You can say whatever you want to think about K7 right now because that's not required to throw him under the bus later. You indicate he's worth some scrutiny, "only later."

[LaptopGun]

I hardly understand how you're disproving it, arm.

[LaptopGun]

Odd he didn't call it an OMGUS back then. But now does... hmmm. It's odd, but I really don't see how it's scummy. He still had an issue with it back then, right? I'm not getting scum reading if he was talking about it.

[LaptopGun]

I refuse to vote K7 because I firmly believe the mafia attempted to railroard him. I hate to go by the list for our lynch, but the Corin wagon and trend of suspicion looks stronger than I thought. Additionally, I'm clearly in the minority for suspecting armlx.

Random thought: one possible bad side affect of collecting the list is that it probably tells the mafia how good of a job each is doing blending in as town. D'oh!!!

[LaptopGun]

I had a bolt from the blue when I was writing my last post. I think it's a concern, but I guess there are benefits for the town in there. My problem is I don't want people to put blind faith into its power (it looks like no one was, as of yet anyway). But like anything in mafia, it's open to manipulation.

I'm mulling over the KoC and the only thing I've noticed is that no one in his situation would want to remain in the game unless they had a very big reason for wanting to stay in this game. Having a good time, likes other players, has a non-vanilla townie roll (in this particular game, we only have mafia), etc. KoC has a motivation to remain. I'm just clueless whether that's good or bad.

I'd like to put together a better case on arm. I doubt others will listen, so I suspect that I will end up switching vote to the person I feel is one of his scum partners.

[LaptopGun]

ABWOP I will do some more thinking on KoC and the cases against him.

[LaptopGun]

CF Riot: Decent case against KoC. There does seem to be a streak of "looking good for the camera." I would probably have laughed at that assertion, but I went back and saw that there did seem to be some trends he followed then left (Forbid, K7, Gimbo etc). His subsequent rejection of the suspects “du jour” makes me wonder what his motivation is, though. I could just as easily see him being an overzealous townie than a mafia just doing everything to blend in. Someone called me a “sheep” earlier and I wonder if that mentality is just what is going on with him. That is, if you consider that in isolation. Taken with his other behavior and here is where I think you CF have a better point, KoC comes off as someone with something to hide. You called him on his behavior and he went all OMGUS. I don’t really understand why a townie would do that. The craplogic, mistakes, and potential outright lies also indicate something is going on.
Lama: Ok. Case is fine. I find I am not as troubled by your points about KoC as I am with CF’s points. In 644 you do bring up yet another case of OMGUS when he declared you were part of a scum trio. You don’t say it, but you do seem to have fun with the idea that he wants to go toe to toe with you yet doesn’t like to actually say anything of merit about you. It seems like an act on his part. Your case about his quick abandoning of votes (602) is duly note, but nonetheless you do come off as tunnel vision on him and others. In 492 you seem to say his “flavor of the minute” voting style seems to be based more on opportunity more than anything else. He seems to be covering something up based on his misdirection.
Arm’s partners? I am still thinking that one over.

[LaptopGun]

Gee, I wonder why you say that now, arm. I doubt it's just the deadline. Anything to do with what I said. Because now you are going against what you said earlier about not wanting to deal with K7 until we catch a mafia person. Basically tomorrow at the earliest. It's not like K7 or Firestarter have done anything of notice recently.

[LaptopGun]

I will not be voting K7. Ill consider Corin, but I agree with Manito. Llama, I'm not liking the way you're pushing things.

[LaptopGun]

Arm, good memory. I thought you and K7 were scumbuddies. Then I figured I was misreading the whole situation. Then, you did what I consider a slipup and implied you were actually using k7 as a fall guy.

I really hate all this talk we have to lynch one or the other suspect. It the perfect excuse and smokescreen for the mafia to appear blameless in a mislynch. Hell, It would not surprise me if k7 and corin are both town. It would be the perfect setup for the mafia. The town in that case has to choose between 2 mislynches. As noted by others, we havn't agreed to much and our thought process have gone around randomly. A little push here or there is all it takes for the mafia to get the town at odds with eachother.

[LaptopGun]

SpyreX, that is easily a justification the mafia could use to skate by without looking scummy for a lynch. Whether it's just stagnation or not, the day was terribly played by the town. We let ourselves fall into this predicament (and for all I know, the mafia had a little manipulation). Can anyone put together a strong case against either K7 (who I think is town) or corin (who I think is more likely mafia) that doesn't basiccally boil down to "these 2 acted fairly scummy, and oh wait its the deadline so choose?" I hate the mntality that most of you have been passing off as pragmatism.

[LaptopGun]

Damn. Good luck town.