Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)

[Corinthian]

vote: Gimbo

Because he's going to say something outrageous and scummy the minute he shows up; I'm fairly certain of it.

[Corinthian]

So, people get tagged as scum when they say the "random vote" phase is random, and when they say it "isn't so random."

That said, I didn't really see a "counter wagon" forming on armix. Wasn't really a wagon on Gimbo either.

[Corinthian]

I've only played in one other game on this site so far, and the lynches were: D1 the mafia godfather, D2 the serial killer, and D3 the mafia roleblocker.

I think it's a big mistake to assume we can't find scum on the first day.

[Corinthian]

oh yeah,

unvote gimbo.

[Corinthian]

Not mislynching is for the winners.

I can agree with killa's basic idea- it kinda looks like forbid gave up and self-voted cause she was feeling attacked. But voting someone you think is a townie to see if she "really wants to play this game" is a stupid plan.

[Corinthian]

Am I missing something?

Forbiddan claims to have been acting out a clever plan, right? A trap into which K7 fell?

What exactly was this brilliant plan, anyway? Look scummy and self-vote to see who else joins the wagon? How is that a trap for scum?

If one intentionally tries to be scummy to get votes, all that proves is that people will vote for players who act like scum.

[Corinthian]

So your plan was to vote yourself, because only scum would find self-voting scummy?

The intentional part was me acting like I was quitting. I was NOT intentionally trying to look scummy, and when it became apparent I WAS looking scummy, the plan had to be abandoned

So your plan depended on looking like you were quitting --- without looking scummy.

The more this conversation goes on, the less I think you actually had a plan.

vote: forbiddanlight

[Corinthian]

Agree with forbid on the last two posts.

She's right, I've sniped her arguments, but she repeatedly called me probable town.

starting to think there is something to her repeated accusations that firestarter is twisting her words.

Also, she's right that most of what people are talking about right now is her case and whether or not it's scummy.

Doesn't make her town, but does make it look like firestarter might be trying hard to distance himself.

[Corinthian]

Yeah, I've got to say, given Gimbo's meta, he's been acting really . . . subdued lately.

small FoS to Faerie Lord for saying he doesn't want to discuss other people until we resolve the forbid issue.

forbid- how do you know cf doesn't think you're right? he hasn't posted in a while.

[Corinthian]

I'm gonna agree with manito.

Already said I dislike the "won't talk about anything else til the forbid issue is resolved" post.

I also think "I rarely vote" is a strange and scummy-sounding thing to put out there.

[Corinthian]

@manito: I know, it was a subtle joke.

So now we've got manito vs. FaerieLord

well, we know which side KC is on.

what the hell, why not ask forbid and fire what they think about this discussion?

[Corinthian]

Are we going to have the "would a townie self-hammer?" debate now? I've seen it argued both ways: only scum would suggest self-hammering/ scum would never suggest it.

It is a little odd that K7 decided to leave off contributing, considering he's a main player in the forbid discussion.

(@KoC: yes, Muse rocks, but so do pandas. My namesake's not the city, either.)

[Corinthian]

Could people please start attributing their quotes? It makes it really hard to follow what you're talking about.

vote: FaerieLord

Spyrex asks: If you didn't think forbiddan was scum, why would you just go along with the town and suggest you'd help lynch (which you didn't even do).

and FL's reply is:

Because the lynch had to be done so that the game could move forward. If we hadn't lynched forbiddan we would still be discussing her

"Moving the game forward" is not a townie motivation. "Not mislynching" is a lot more important than moving the game forward.

[Corinthian]

So Llama's going to jump his vote around to try and make people talk? Yeah, that's helpful.

(What the hell is a "same ignorance crime?")

I looked at 392. It's a really big post, but Llama never actually asks any questions in it.

So what do you want, Llama? Commentary on your commentary?


five will get you ten he tries to say I'm scummy for avoiding his argument. He's scummy for voting me just to try and get "answers" to questions he didn't ask.

[Corinthian]

All right, all right, I'm here. More posting tomorrow.

[Corinthian]

I'm here, I'm reading, and I'm still voting FL. For the same reasons I gave before.

FaerieLord wanted us to lynch forbid to move the game along. Discussion is good, lynching townies to move the game forward is what scum does.

FL continually talks about meta, and what other people in other games did.

Armix, it's true that players do have metas, but I'm suspicious of anyone who defends themselves by claiming that scummy behavior is their meta.

Meta can be useful when you're forming your own opinion of someone based on your observations of their previous play.
It's useless when someone you've never played with tells you that their actions mean something and you take their word for it.

Plus, KoC is right. It's WIFOMy as hell.

[Corinthian]

@armix: you're missing the second half of my argument. I'm not saying that some people aren't always scummy. (Gimbo, for example, as far as I can tell.)

I'm saying you can't take

their

word for it when they say "oh I always do this scummy thing when I'm town."

[Corinthian]

God I hate you, Llama.

Me, Manito, and KoC have all gotten votes from you based on the idiotic idea that it's all right to vote for someone to pressure them into responding to you.

I refuse to respond to that kind of bullshit.

[Corinthian]

are you going to say most mafia players don't vote very often to begin with

In my experience on other sites, most of the time when there are still many players left, and multiple wagons, mafia players won't set themselves as the only vote against another player. Especially, you don't see scum starting wagons against other scum. Usually.

[Corinthian]

QFT

unvote, vote k7

[Corinthian]

so, ninja, what do you want from me?

[Corinthian]

Town doesn't vote someone they think is probably town just to get a reaction.

It's simply not rational to think that voting someone will gently indicate to them that you'd like a reasonable, well-thought out case now, please.

Players lay pressure votes on what they see as potential scum.

This generally provokes an OMGUS reaction, which the pressurevoter then takes as confirmation of their hunch.

The reason to lay a vote on someone "to make them speak up" is so that they'll say something you can use to attack them with.

Ninja, post 881 was a good way to get a reaction from me. Simple, direct, non-antagonistic questions.

regarding Faerie: yes, absolutely. I'm voting k7 because he's scummy, too. If they're both scum, then who cares what order we lynch them in?

regarding my play vs k7: this one will take longer to respond to. A big difference would be that despite Llama's best efforts, there is no wagon on me that I would need to hide from.

(Have to go to work now. Will almost surely have time tomorrow for more posting.)

[Corinthian]

Corin's behavior differs from his observed town norm here, K7's doesn't.

what the hell is this? I've only played one game on this site. How can you possibly say my behavior differs from my observed town norm based on

one

game of hurry-up mafia?

[Corinthian]

Hey, Llama, maybe you should restate your case against me.

My point here: no one but Llama seems to have given any reasons for voting me other than-we want to see you talk.

Faerie is for a Corinthlynch for OMGUS reasons.

Firestarter, Ninja, strangercoug, why do you think I'm scum?

[Corinthian]

Regarding the "how is my play different from K7?" question:

I need more specific here, I think. Are you implying that I also lurk, only to delurk when attacked?
My meta will prove I'm most active Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday, which are my work weekend.

[Corinthian]

Where he first debunks the "meta" idea, now he's telling people to look at his posting meta

Apples and oranges, FL.

The meta I'm referring to is an easily observable record of fact. I post more often and am more likely to make multiple posts per day on Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. I never post during the day on Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday. Anyone who cared to could look this up and see if it's true.

The meta I'm "debunking" is the idea that based on my play in ONE game of hurry-up in which I was a pro-town power role, it's possible to determine that my play in this game is more indicative of scum than town.



Oh, and happy birthday.

...

killa seven - 5 (Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, Corinthian, orangepenguin, Joubert)
Corinthian - 4 (StrangerCoug, LlamaFluff, Firestarter, TheSweatpantsNinja)
Manito - 2 (FaerieLord, killa seven)
Firestarter - 2 (armlx, CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

15 alive, 8 to lynch.

-Mod

[Corinthian]

All right, here's my list:

K7, FaerieLord, Firestarter

[Corinthian]

Okay, I have to ask:

KoC hasn't made his pick for the list yet.

Llama decides to speak for him, saying that

KoC is gone for now but I expect K7, Faerie, Corin from him

Riot replies to that with

KoC states in post 745 he is suspicious of Firestarter, which is not reflected in your guess votes. He appears to be pro-town on Corin.

Why did Llama decide to speculate on KoC's picks for the list? He didn't give any reasons, either, just threw the names up there. This is two separate points, by the way. First, no one else is trying to guess other people's votes; second- what is the point of a post that presumes the direction of a player's suspicions with no supporting evidence presented? What is Llama hoping to achieve by that post?

Riot's response at least mentions a real piece of evidence, an indicator of KoC's possible intentions re: Firestarter.

Llama and Riot claim contradictory beliefs for KoC re: Corinth. Neither of them actually post any textual evidence as support, though.

(Okay, reread KoC in isolation, and I don't see where Llama's presumed KoC FaerieLord vote is coming from. Most of what I'm seeing from KoC is a continued push on K7 as incredibly scummy. He mentions several times that he would be willing to lynch Corinth if it comes down to that, but always reiterates that he finds K7 to be a much stronger lynch candidate. In his most recent posts he seems to be pretty soft on the Corinthscum idea.)

Why did Llama feel the need to post a guess as to KoC's intentions?

AAAND BACK.

killa seven - 6 (Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, Corinthian, orangepenguin, Joubert, StrangerCoug)
Corinthian - 3 (LlamaFluff, Firestarter, TheSweatpantsNinja)
Manito - 2 (FaerieLord, killa seven)
Firestarter - 2 (armlx, CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

15 alive, 8 to lynch, 5 at deadline.

-Mod

[Corinthian]

@Riot: Using names makes it easier to follow an argument. I hate long sentences full of "him" and "you"-- they make it hard to tell which player is being talked about. I also prefer to use "I" when I am stating my own opinion and "Corinth" when I am referring to something someone else said about me. That way it's harder to quote me out of context.

In general: what exactly do youall mean by OMGUS? Referring to 1028 and 1029 here. I'm not voting Llama, I'm not even trying to make a serious scumcase against him.

[Corinthian]

So, responding to Llama's speculations is an automatic OMGUS?

Or, questioning Llama's motivation for claiming that KoC suspects K7, FL, and Corinth is OMGUS, simply because I am on that list?

I have a valid point. Llama is putting words in KoC's mouth while he is V/LA.

[Corinthian]

I think Llama has built a pretty strong case against Corin.

Would someone tell me what that case is? People keep referencing "scummy behavior" without giving any actual examples, or "llama's case seems strong" without explaining what they mean.

The only evidentiary points I can find are lurking and refusing to respond to Llama initially.

Is this the way you guys play mafia?

I don't think Llama is scum. He's very content, one might even say proud, of pushing the Corinwagon. He very definitely started it, and he has no problem with the fact that everyone is acting as though the case against me is his and his alone, and they are just agreeing with his points.

Doesn't this set off any alarm bells for anyone? Llama is going to get the blame for the mislynch, while the scum can claim that they were mislead by his arguments.

Thoughts:
K7- staying off the Corinwagon. Most probably because Llama has loudly trumpeted the fact that he finds K7's avoidance of said wagon a telling protown point. Quite possibly also because he doesn't want to be implicated in another mislynch.

Stranger- "would you feel comfortable clarifying this"? Why did you phrase that so politely? Why not just ask "what do you mean?"

[Corinthian]

I bet scum from this game are really annoyed. 44 pages and they haven't even gotten a chance to talk to each other.

Isn't this a nightless game?

[Corinthian]

Oh, my mistake, it's double day.

Day, Night, Twilight and Daybreak

* During the Day phase, players will discuss and vote until a player has been lynched. You can vote for there to be No-Lynch, but this also requires a majority of votes. Once the vote required to reach a majority has been cast, that person is dead. Unvoting will not undo the lynch.
* A lynch in the first Day phase of each pair (Day X.0) will kill the lynchee, and instantly reset the votecount. A lynch in the second Day phase (Day X.5) will kill the lynchee, then send the game into Twilight. Lynched players must stop talking once the lynching vote is cast.
* During the Twilight phase, players are still allowed to discuss, but votes will be ignored. The Twilight phase has an indeterminate length of time, as it is simply the length of time between the actual lynching vote, and the death scene/thread lock. The game then proceeds to the Night phase.
* During the Night phase, any players who have powers which can be used at night can use their powers. This includes, but is not limited to, Mafia sending in their kill. The night phase has a deadline for actions, normally of around 3 real-life days. If you do not wish to make a choice, please send in "No Choice". Players who do not send in a choice will be treated as having sent "No Choice".
* Daybreak follows Night, and is simply the period between the Nightchoice deadline and the thread being opened for Day to begin. Choices received are resolved, and therefore any choices sent during this time will be ignored. During this time, prods will be sent to any player who did not submit a choice. This includes players who did not have a choice and players who are part of groups from which one member did submit a choice.