Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)

[armlx]

Vote Gimbo

Pro-active solution to the lurking issue.

[armlx]

This may be reaching, but all of a sudden we have a "counter wagon" on armlx. Does seem to be random votes. I would not let this go by without mentioning it as a fair percentage of the comments and actions so far have been off the wall.

Yup, this is exactly what I was waiting for.

Unvote, Vote LTG

Random stage has no wagons really, especially in larges. Definitely is reaching, and your "disclaimer" does not clear that.

[armlx]

Gimbo you know everyone was voting for you under the pretense that you'd come in acting overly defensive and such, so why did you just play into their hands like that? Just chill a little bit, let them start a random wagon on you, it doesn't mean you're going to get voted off. It's a game man, if they want to gang up on you for petty reasons just let them do it and brush it off your shoulder.

I was voting him to see who would comment on all the people voting him.

[armlx]

What reason should there be to vote for someone right now besides the fact that we're in the random voting stage?

Seconded.

[armlx]

SpyreX, your action was understandable but misguided.

[armlx]

You should know from Open 60 that I am given to flights of fancy when I see odd things.

No, I am not familiar with this. Link to an example from that game.

[armlx]

So, people get tagged as scum when they say the "random vote" phase is random, and when they say it "isn't so random."

No, people get tagged when they refuse to random vote because there is no point (assuming they have played before) and when they try to use the random votes to push something on D1.

[armlx]

5 hours without posts isn't that bad.

[armlx]

anyways, i dont understand how anything done during the random vote stage could possible be scum-tells, that's why its called RANDOM-voting stage, enlighten me please. ;]

This is true. Those that attack people for things that are going on during the random voting phase are therefore making baseless attacks.

[armlx]

It was 5 hours past a day. 29 hours. (d'oh!)

Meh, happens.

[armlx]

CF Riot, you are contradicting yourself. First you say random votes are relevant, then you say you won't do them.

[armlx]

Sure that's fine. I don't mind being in the spotlight cause it should only clear me. Fire away.

Baiting the bandwagon is not correct play. Especially in a vanilla set up.

The short story is I felt JustinPlayfiar was acting completely contrary to our previous game together and 2 other players were setting another player up for a misliynch.

I don't remember, was he claimed as cop by then? If not, That is completely different. Metagame based attacks are very valid.

yea well if you are town, you might wanna stop doing that, this is the kind of things that causes mislynches on D1s

What gimbo means here is add meaning to your posts, not stop posting. Also lols on Gimbo posting that.

[armlx]

You hadn't replaced into the game yet. This was day 2. Justin never claimed, he just acted what I considered out of character. I was horrifyingly wrong though with crazy ideas. It's a cautionary tale for meta-attacks, but that was largely because my case was much stronger in my mind. And of course he was hiding something... he was just a cop.

No, I reread all that. I thought you attacks then were valid, or I would have tried to get you lynched.

[armlx]

im confused about the cop investigation talk, is that this game? i thought this was day one....

There also aren't cops in this game.

[armlx]

Lurkers are for the mod to sort out, and if they continue to lurk without wanting to be replaced then its the players problem.

[armlx]

Works for me. Different playstyles here than I'm used to. So, fine.

retract vote from voodo

. Now...I really have no idea who to vote. I will put out there that while it's no where near clearage, I am leaning more town on gimbo and Bogre for avoiding jumping on me with votes for what seemed like posting for the sake of posting, instead pointing out the error and letting others draw their conclusions. I am sure a mislynch on me would be easy because I'm still finding my way. They avoided that option, giving me a chance to defend myself. Now maybe this is typical in this forum, but that's odd for scum where I play because usually if they can push a mislynch without seeming very out of line, they will. I'm still not sure where to vote right now, because no one seems to be really scummy, if at all scummy. So for now, I'm not voting, but will when I feel someone is worth it.

This post seems pretty scummy. Non-commital, dismissing of attacks as easy targeting, no defense.

[armlx]

vote forbiddanlight

please dont vote yourself and hunt scum thanks.

So your post implies you think he is town, yet you vote for him?

[armlx]

What meta discussion dcorbe? Its over. Comments on things are good btw.

[armlx]

town should never vote for himself or herself, ask to be replaced.

Doesn't mean they don't.

[armlx]

pity is for the weak.

Not mislynching is for the winners.

[armlx]

K7, unvote now, forbid basically soft-claimed, get off her case already. -___-

I lol'ed. Soft claim in a Mountainous game.

[armlx]

I soft claimed? Actually, no, I wasn't implying I had a role at all. Since it was clearly a colossal failure I'll explain my reasoning. I wanted to test a tactic. Vote myself under the pretense of giving up, and see if any scum took the bait of. It backfired, causing people to think I was more town but frustrated, stupid, misguided, or all of the above. However, my little experiment did reveal a few interesting facts about killa seven. I think an

FoS Killa Seven

is a good idea here. He definitely gave a more scummy read than the rest of you in response to what I did. I apologize for not continuing the tatic longer, but it didn't seem to be getting anywhere.

This actually makes me feel pretty sketchy about you.

[armlx]

I'm with Armlx on this one, and to quote the old addage - LAL.

Meh, this isn't really a LAL scenario unless you think he is lying about his self vote being a trap. Which I sorta do.

[armlx]

If I were scum, that'd be perfect, throw a few woe is me posts here and there, and see how the day goes.

you either get the suspicion thrown off yourself early with the move (as mafia, this would keep you safer from an early lynch) OR you get the suspicion thrown on someone else who comes after you.

I was sarnath'ed.

[armlx]

sarnath'ed?

Its a term for when you are about to post something and someone posts it right before you.

[armlx]

I wont be pressured into throwing Fos's around, nor votes at this stage by you or anyone.

You think your vote is much more dangerous then it actually is. You should change this.

[armlx]

I've asserted I'm town several times

Irrel. Worth nothing as its just an appeal to emotion.

[armlx]

Yeah, I'm really not buying forbiddanlight's play so far.

Unvote, Vote forbiddanlight

[armlx]

I kinda see your point but your play is becoming confusing and erratic

This is usually a sign of someone who is lying about their motives.

[armlx]

Meh, vote isn't going anywhere. A lot of forbid's defense through now has been "You are wrong b/c I am town", which is an invalid argument for obv reasons.

[armlx]

Lynching someone you think is town but just a bad player is not the best move FL.

And stop doing that promoting a lynch but not voting people thing. It just makes you look scummy every time.

[armlx]

Thats definitely good enough LTG. You are justified from page 2.

[armlx]

2) Get used to it. By now you should know that I rarely vote. But since this is nightless, it looks like I will have to.

FL, this only benefits you in games you are scum, and even then you will still get default lynched or vigged for it a good amount regardless of alignment. If you stop doing it, it will be better for you in the long run.

[armlx]

Common Sense or Gut.

Unless you can make your Gut into Logic, the right play is Common Sense.

[armlx]

Your analysis is a summary. You post practically no opinions or interpretations of players actions. This is a bad thing.

[armlx]

Someone mind hammering fl? His going back on all his actions reeks of scumminess.

[armlx]

You were complaining that not posting up the cases was scummy, so I posted them, and you are still complaining?

Umm, other fl. You are FL, forbiddanlight is fl.

[armlx]

Also, it's not a hammer yet. I only have 6 votes now. I need 9 to be lynched. I need 3 more votes...where are you getting your numbers, armix?

I confused this with a mini (12 alive, 7 to lynch). My counting is odd today.

[armlx]

I don't think he is saying you are a policy lynch....

[armlx]

Fair enough, but I still see him just saying your behavior was scummy regardless.

[armlx]

I'm pretty sure just based on one alignment of fl + k7 we can't determine the other.

[armlx]

I'm currently leaning CF Riot or Firestarter, rereading is needed tho.

[armlx]

Yeah,

Vote Firestarter

. Full case soon, but the major thing I saw was the distancing from the lynch towards the end.

[armlx]

Lastly, I have a new suspect in Knight of Cydonia. His attitude during the Forbid lynch seemed over-the-top. Now the way he changes his vote from Gimbo to FL seems out of place to me. In post 348 he says he's noticed how FL's play has changed since yesterday, but says he's still torn because he's "hard to judge". This is where he unvotes Gimbo. His next post is 351 and he says he's leaning town on FL because he has good posting under the new heat. But then right after that with only one 1-line post from FL in between, he votes FL for "schizophrenia, wall-of-texting to try and avoid questions, and the way his calm demeanour has completely cracked under any kind of pressure. " Two of those being things he'd said weren't that scummy two posts ago.

I can second this.

Still liking my Firestarter vote, but this is another good avenue.

CANARY ISLANDS

FaerieLord - 3 (SpyreX, Manito, Knight of Cydonia)
Manito - 2 (FaerieLord, LlamaFluff)
killa seven - 2 (CF Riot, LaptopGun)
LlamaFluff - 1 (Firestarter)
Firestarter - 1 (armlx)

Not Voting - Joubert, killa seven, Corinthian, ShadowGirl, dcorbe, Bogre

15 alive, 8 to lynch.

-Mod

[armlx]

Because I didn't think forbiddan was scum and any vote I posted would be lost or considered scu

A) Your posts say otherwise on the forbiddan issue.

B) You have no clue how scummy not voting because it could be considered scummy is. Seriously, grow a pair, place some votes.

[armlx]

I can't ask for a prod when he's lurking in open sight, which is what he's doing. He's posting, just with absolutely no content, barely a line or two. He's also completely ignored several questions I've asked of him - or do those not find your strung together case?

Why not?

Quite frankly, m'dear, if you are town, I'd be almost as happy to see you go. You're doing nothing by playing this way other than helping the Mafia.

Agree with Llama that this was scummy. Pre-emptively excusing mislynches and what not.

[armlx]

Because the lynch had to be done so that the game could move forward. If we hadn't lynched forbiddan we would still be discussing her

This is 100% untrue. We could just have started ignoring him for a while.

Also, LTG, SK meta is far different from mafia meta. The SK's goal is VERY different from the mafia's goal. As SK, especially in that scenario from that game, there was no reason for me not to be finding scum as otherwise they would be a killing group that was ahead of me in the game. Mafia would just be looking for an easy lynch in that scenario, not a lynch on a scummy person.

[armlx]

EBWODP. Missed armlx there. Ignoring a problem won't solve it. Removing it solves it. There are only two ways to remove it. Think she is town / Lynch her.

See, we would have solved the problem by assuming she wasn't scum and moving along while ignoring her. General plan for dealing with people who are lynch bait that you decide not to lynch.

[armlx]

Ok. I was being far too general. I've never played an anti-town role, but I imagine a few of the tells are the same. Still I was being too categorical.

Early game this is true, but once the SK can actually start scum hunting really well it starts getting different.

[armlx]

This is Fae's general meta. At worst its null, its possibly town. He is a poor lynch.

[armlx]

I absolutely hate how you are dancing around people's questions when you are here.

Are there questions I haven't answered?

Actual Fire case and rebuttal coming in the next 24 hours.

[armlx]

armlx (it's taken you this long to actually put a Firestarter case together? Huh. And a null-tell is no defence. It's just a null-tell.)

Null-tell is a defense when the accusation is that the behavior is a scum tell.

armlx (it's taken you this long to actually put a Firestarter case together? Huh. And a null-tell is no defence. It's just a null-tell.)

I'm lazy, this game sorta fell low on my interest list out of the number I am in. As I said, coming today or tomorrow.

[armlx]

And the moral of the story is - don't take on too many games at once. If I were you, I'd consider dropping a game or two to concentrate better on this one. I usually limit myself to 3 games maximum.

Meh, more don't take Mountainous games as I generally lose interest in them.

Lets go over Firestarter's posts.

1: Calls Gimbo out for over reaction, which is not a good thing (over reaction != scum tell), but it was the random stage so w/e.

2: Kinda contradictory, argues against random voting when he did. Meh.

3: Cites fl as misguided townie.

4: He starts spouting off you could be scum arguments against fl's actions, but he thinks fl is town? Doesn't add up.

5: This is a good one. Refuses to really vote (BAD)

Do you get the scent of townie blood up for a D1 lynch???

Nice attack here on CF Riot, not sure what this falls under but its not good.....

The more conversation on D1 the better for town, theres no need to rush through a lynch CFR....

Misrep. of CF's point that you should do something rather then fence sit.

6: OMGUS's CF Riot.

8: Complete 180 on fl. Odd considering fl's behavior falls under his description of fl as town (misguided townie)


9:

You are NOT acting townish, a confirmed townie nor represent a solid case, so I hope you can see where Im going with this atm....

Direct contradiction.

Plainly, you are the scummiest player right now, your posts have been very sketchy, and you'll have me believe that "your plan" was what it was....

Another.

9: Valid point about fl being OMGUSy.

10:

Then point to the evidence, rather than saying "stop attacking me"....

This is kinda odd, as I don't think this is what fl was doing at all.

11:

You say in your last post (quoted at the top of this post) that Bogre & Corinthian are attacking you, yet in your synopsis post above, you havent given either a special one liner, like the rest, yet you seem to be saying that they are attacking you more than Killa!!
I find that very strange indeed....

And for the Killa mention, you have him at the top of your list on the last page, yet your now saying he isn't attacking you any more???

This is pretty wrong. Just because someone is attacking you doesn't mean you have a read on them, and her reasons to attack K7 were outside of the current attacks.

12:

So basically you think that FL1 is ok because she reckons your town??
And that I might be scum beacuse she thinks so also??
Dont be so naive....

Misrep. The quote even said she wasn't necessarily town, and agreeing with someone's case isn't bad.

So, FL using the word twist may seem clever, but that is not the case when I pointed to the Alternative of her ploy.... Which was her being scum trying to frame an over aggressive townie....
It is not lying, nor twisting words, as FL has so eloquently put it, it is however a possibilty that was 50:50 at the time of my posting it, was it not???
That ratio, to me, is fairly lopsided at her being scum now, after what has been posted by her since then....

The twist thing is valid, except I'm not sure that was what fl was trying to say you were twisting. Also, bringing false probabilities into the discussion isn't good. 50/50 is false for town/scum. Just because there are 2 options does not mean they are equal. The chance of fl being scum laying a trap was fairly large, but 50/50.... not so much.

More later tonight (well, technically tomorrow morning, but I won't be sleeping in the time between now and then).

Also, the numbers are from FS's post by player, +1 as the count starts at 0.

[armlx]

I don't get Bogre's post.

Continuing where I left off.

13:

May I ask why you have placed your vote on me, rather than leaving it where you believe scum to be???

And Ive checked back through K7's recent posts, and I dont see him throwing votes around, his last few posts were aimed at you, like most other players.

It helps to quote posts....

Except fl just said she felt you were more scummy.... Also deflection to K7.

14:

You saying that some of your attackers are not scum is full of WIFOM....
Again, there are alternatives to that, like them being fellow scum, them being town and leaving a breadcrumb for their lynch..

Do you follow now???

Attacking someone for stating opinions = no.

15:

I phrased that badly. He's no longer actively attacking me, though he was attacking me, hence why I said that. To be honest, he seems to just throw in the occasional "Yeah, you look scummy" and doesn't even try to back it up as much as everyone else has been backing their votes. I still think he's pretty much definite scum, even though that's possibly my own falling to self fulfilling prophecy. Really, thinking on it...I actually feel evidentially better about a

unvote, vote Firestarter

than I do about Killa. I feel emotionally that Killa is scum though, as well as somewhat evidentially with the fact he hasn't seemed to back himself up much, if at all. So, that's where I stand.

My choice of wording was wrong, you did not say vote....
But you did say he throws in the occasional "yeah" here & there...
Please, quote them for me, full posts...
But you have contradicted yourself something fierce in that post, first you say your

definite that Killa is scum

, then you move your vote to me...
Are you also definite about me being scum?

And about my vote, both of you are likely scum in my eyes, it's just that I honestly feel the evidence supports voting you better than the evidence supports killa.

May I ask why you have placed your vote on me,

rather than leaving it where you believe scum to be???

I would very much like a concise post from you based on your recent change of votes from Killa to me....

And I wont settle for this again....

I actually feel evidentially better about a

unvote, vote Firestarter

than I do about Killa. I feel emotionally that Killa is scum though, as well as somewhat evidentially with the fact he hasn't seemed to back himself up much, if at all. So, that's where I stand.

That's a pretty menial attack here.

16:quote="Firestarter"]Yeah, Ive given off scuminess by twisting your words..... ok...

See my last few posts if you need clarification as to what I actually was doing......
Giving alternatives.
The fact you have reacted so badly, imo, is the reason I think of you as scum.

BTW, lets not get personal here, Im pretty sure your no idiot, and I can assure you that I aint an idiot either....

Now, am I gonna get a concise post from you or not?
Its the 2nd time you have evaded my request...[/quote]

He wants a concise post with all the evidence? Also, notice the change back to aggressor.

In summary, Firestarter spends this whole portion alternating between attacks on fl's opinions, saying she has given none, then buddying back up to divert suspicion from himself.

[armlx]

armlx, your posted as promised, but I dont feel the commitment there Im afraid, especially after your initial first sentence in your first analysis post...

"I lose interest"

First off, ask to be replaced if your not interested...

I'm still active in the game, to be replaced for not being interested is a slap in the mod's face. No thanks.

Now, your play has been scumlike all the way through this game, are you seriously trying to tell me and everyone else that you were interested at any point in the game????

What is your point in this section? How has my play been scummy, and why does my interest matter in this?

Because you sure as hell aint done anything different with your posting here, 1 or 2 per real day, every 2nd page, and after you threw your vote on FL, which, BTW, was never explained, I'd imagine because you were not called out on it like I have done, you then try to do the same with me.

I see, so posting 1-2 times a day is lurking now. My vote was pretty explained, it was placed after she claimed it was all a ploy, I said I didn't buy it. Pretty simple.

To me, your lying, if you werent interested, you probably wouldn't have bothered with your posts on me.... Which fits nicely with a scum trying to lie low and post as infrequently as you have.

I see, so I'm scummy if I don't do something, and I'm scummy if I do something?

Its very easy for you to pick which posts I made that you can turn scummy with some clever wording, twisting words and what not. But nothing you have mentioned is solid, you also have no real evidence of me being scum, unlike what I have on you.

A) I have analyzed EVERY post you made

B) If you think I am twisting your words, go to my posts and refute the points I have made rather then just saying I am.

I also laid in another post facts that you have ignored/twisted, such as when I removed my vote of FL, and the posts Ive asked for others to reread/not hammer.

I'm getting there. As you can see, I have only gone half way through your posts so far.

Facts are facts, and what Ive mentioned above, and in my analysis post of you, HAS happened....
What you have mentioned is your interpretation of what you think has happened....

So..... Your interpretation and analysis is the word of god, and mine is just spin?

Your interpretation = Scum interpretation.

I thought this was funny given the facts are facts thing.

[armlx]

17: This is an odd one. He just backs off fl for activity reasons and spreads fear of a mislynch. I don't know what to think of this post.

18: This is a good post, just one that feels like he should have made it several posts earlier before he started attacking fl.

19: Pretty waffling stance on fl.

20: More waffling, and a semantic jab at fl's post.

21: Valid post, barring knowledge of k7 and gimbo's metas. k7 and gimbo were doing dumb things, but they always do.

22: Stated town vibes contradicts his FOS, I really think Firestarter saw the writing on the wall and just abandoned ship to distance himself from the lynch.

23-25: valid posts.

26: Just straight up invalidates Gimbo's point with no proof. I am noticing this trend in his responses to me as well.

27-29: False logic on the replacement issue (if he was town, he wouldn't have had to have been replaced is not true in any way shape or form)

31-32: Same will post later thing he is attacking me for.


33: Attacks me for not posting much, and not removing my vote from fl. The later is exactly the kind of thing I was expecting him to set up by his late unvote and sorta trying to stall the wagon.

[armlx]

You hadn't replaced into the game yet. This was day 2. Justin never claimed, he just acted what I considered out of character. I was horrifyingly wrong though with crazy ideas. It's a cautionary tale for meta-attacks, but that was largely because my case was much stronger in my mind. And of course he was hiding something... he was just a cop.

No, I reread all that. I thought you attacks then were valid, or I would have tried to get you lynched.

Nothing of use... filler.

How is that line of discussion regarding LTG's early suspicion filler? Do you even know the context of it, or are you just saying it is?

im confused about the cop investigation talk, is that this game? i thought this was day one....

There also aren't cops in this game.

Nothing of use... filler.

Eliminating confusion = filler?

Lurkers are for the mod to sort out, and if they continue to lurk without wanting to be replaced then its the players problem.

Nothing of use... filler... Again

Telling people to not make a bad play is filler?

Works for me. Different playstyles here than I'm used to. So, fine.

retract vote from voodo

. Now...I really have no idea who to vote. I will put out there that while it's no where near clearage, I am leaning more town on gimbo and Bogre for avoiding jumping on me with votes for what seemed like posting for the sake of posting, instead pointing out the error and letting others draw their conclusions. I am sure a mislynch on me would be easy because I'm still finding my way. They avoided that option, giving me a chance to defend myself. Now maybe this is typical in this forum, but that's odd for scum where I play because usually if they can push a mislynch without seeming very out of line, they will. I'm still not sure where to vote right now, because no one seems to be really scummy, if at all scummy. So for now, I'm not voting, but will when I feel someone is worth it.

This post seems pretty scummy. Non-commital, dismissing of attacks as easy targeting, no defense.

Now it starts to get fun....
With armlx' answer here, he is also guilty of said >> Non-commital.

I'm guilty of what non-commital thing? Explain.

What meta discussion dcorbe? Its over. Comments on things are good btw.

Yet no comment from armlx....?

You are clearly cherry picking my "irrelevant" posts out, of course it looks like I'm not making comments.

town should never vote for himself or herself, ask to be replaced.

Doesn't mean they don't.

Nothing of use... filler.

Someone used this as logic to prove fl was scum. I proved it wrong.

pity is for the weak.

Not mislynching is for the winners.

Nothing of use... whatsoever...

K7 tried to pretty much illogically press a lynch with his post. I said no.

K7, unvote now, forbid basically soft-claimed, get off her case already.

I lol'ed. Soft claim in a Mountainous game.

You lol'd, yet did nothing else with this post...

I explained how a "soft claim" means nothing.....

I soft claimed? Actually, no, I wasn't implying I had a role at all. Since it was clearly a colossal failure I'll explain my reasoning. I wanted to test a tactic. Vote myself under the pretense of giving up, and see if any scum took the bait of. It backfired, causing people to think I was more town but frustrated, stupid, misguided, or all of the above. However, my little experiment did reveal a few interesting facts about killa seven. I think an

FoS Killa Seven

is a good idea here. He definitely gave a more scummy read than the rest of you in response to what I did. I apologize for not continuing the tatic longer, but it didn't seem to be getting anywhere.

This actually makes me feel pretty sketchy about you.

Here is the start of some posts that really get to me..
Non-commital, and making statements for someone else to pick up on.
No FoS' or votes from armlx in any of these type posts where he seems to be suspicious...
Suspicious...

That post is basically the same as an FOS. Unlike you, I don't say anything disincriminating about the person right next to my attacks.

I'm with Armlx on this one, and to quote the old addage - LAL.

Meh, this isn't really a LAL scenario unless you think he is lying about his self vote being a trap. Which I sorta do.

Major contradiction here, he says

"This isn't really a LAL scenario"

and then states

"unless you think he is lying about his self vote being a trap. Which I sorta do."

"Which I sorta do" after he says it "isn't a Lal scenario"???

How is that a contradiction to add an if clause to a statement?

you either get the suspicion thrown off yourself early with the move (as mafia, this would keep you safer from an early lynch) OR you get the suspicion thrown on someone else who comes after you.

I was sarnath'ed.

Nothing useful/filler

Adding my support to a point of view isn't useful?

I wont be pressured into throwing Fos's around, nor votes at this stage by you or anyone.

You think your vote is much more dangerous then it actually is. You should change this.

Again, this seems he has suspicions, but it also seems hes willing to let someone else take up the baton.
No FoS, no vote again.

I was waiting to see the response to this post before moving along any line of action with regards to it.

Yeah, I'm really not buying forbiddanlight's play so far.

Unvote, Vote forbiddanlight

No case, and no promise to make one afterwards...

No case besides the one that everyone had made for the last infi pages, including myself in previous posts.

Lynching someone you think is town but just a bad player is not the best move FL.
And stop doing that promoting a lynch but not voting people thing. It just makes you look scummy every time.

As opposed to voting someone

without

a case?

Again, see my previous posts that you even quoted right here.

2) Get used to it. By now you should know that I rarely vote. But since this is nightless, it looks like I will have to.

FL, this only benefits you in games you are scum, and even then you will still get default lynched or vigged for it a good amount regardless of alignment. If you stop doing it, it will be better for you in the long run.

This again, is another post that seems armlx' suspicions has been raised...
But, yet again, no FoS, no vote. And no follow up.
"Let someone else take this from where Ive left it..."

No, not suspicion, only teaching.

vote forbiddanlight

please dont vote yourself and hunt scum thanks.

So your post implies you think he is town, yet you vote for him?

I dont see where K7 implies he thinks Forbidden is town in that post.....
Please explain...

By asking fl to go hunt scum and not self vote, that would imply he thinks she was town as those are things you would want a town player to do in that scenario.

I kinda see your point but your play is becoming confusing and erratic

This is usually a sign of someone who is lying about their motives.

Another breadcrumb for someone else to pick up here, and again, no Fos, no vote, no follow up...

I voted fl in my previous post.

Your analysis is a summary. You post practically no opinions or interpretations of players actions. This is a bad thing.

Apart from the case you've posted on me armlx, you are the single most guiltiest player of the crime you suggest in that quote...
By your own logic, you look really really really bad....

I making a large analysis that is only summary is bad because it looks like you are doing something when you aren't. I have made no such effort and am not guilty of that same crime.

Someone mind hammering fl? His going back on all his actions reeks of scumminess.

This post came when Forbidden had only 6 votes on her, it took 9 to hammer.
armlx seems desperate for this lynch to go through, and practically begs for someone to hammer her.

Yeah, one of these reasonings about desperate and what not. I have never seen one of these kind of posts actually be desperate scum, and have never seen this accusation be accurate. I explain my confusion, we moved on.

Seriously, your non commital, your filler posts, suggesting one thing and not following them up, your votes on Forbidden and me without as much as a sniff of a case to go with them, your PBPA analysis of me, only after I called you out with my vote on you....

I did follow up on most of the things I suggested with votes on LTG and fl, which is funny given you saying I lacked a case on fl when my posts all clearly build up to that vote. I also see you have yet to respond to ANYTHING I said in the PBPA.

[armlx]

But your statements, and indeed mine, in both PBPA's, are something the rest of town need to read and digest.

No, accusations are things for players to refute.

[armlx]

Im not scum.... Accusation refuted.

Deliberately avoiding the issue at hand is not an out here. More logic plz.

Firestarter, armlx, are you deliberately ignoring me? Admitting you would have hammered someone you thought to be town... come on. What more do you want?

People like policy lynches for reasons that are beyond me. I'm going to reread another FL game I'm in soon and see if there's anything about his thoughts on policy lynches there, but I doubt it will change my opinion here.

[armlx]

Firestarter is scummy for fueling the fl lynch then jumping off at the end so he could set up for attacking those who actually did the voting today, as well as his manipulative defenses all game.

[armlx]

Spyre, can you sum up the FL case in a similarly concise manner?

[armlx]

I think I may be to blame for that "540". I spent like 15 minutes explaining to him on scum chat why the whole not voting thing is bad (outside the context of any specific game obviously).

[armlx]

And the whole not voting thing was his old meta.

[armlx]

Also: Armlx, are you allowed to discuss the game in scum-chat? It may not have been discussion about who to vote for, but explaining why Faerie should be voting rather than withholding is a bit... morally grey, to me.

Its a general issue with his play that is not confined to one game, and I did so without using any specific game in the discussion. No different then any other strategy discussion.

[armlx]

Metaing and using outside situations from completely different games is so unbelievably stupid.

Really? Why? Mafia is a game played by human beings, who form tendencies very easily. Lets use an example from science: Some people run at a body temperature a couple of degrees below normal. You know a person does this, but do you assume they are sick when their body temperature turns up normal for them? No.

[armlx]

Armix, it's true that players do have metas, but I'm suspicious of anyone who defends themselves by claiming that scummy behavior is their meta.

Except when its true.....

NICE TO SEE YOU TO SEE YOU...

FaerieLord - 4 (SpyreX, Manito, Corinthian, Knight of Cydonia)
armlx - 2 (Firestarter, LaptopGun)
killa seven - 2 (CF Riot, TheSweatpantsNinja)
Manito - 1 (FaerieLord)
LlamaFluff - 1 (Firestarter)
Firestarter - 1 (armlx)
Corinthian - 1 (LlamaFluff)
LaptopGun - 1 (Bogre)

Not Voting - Joubert, killa seven, BlckKnght

15, 8.

-Mod

[armlx]

What bothers me is that, ultimately, people with that kind of retarded meta live forever

Not true. I invite you to read games ZeekLTK was in.

Lol, Zeek was... interesting to say the least.

That said, DGB is very often lynched (as well as both her alts). Another example of it.

[armlx]

Besides, I'm not arguing about FaerieLord's game-to-game meta, I'm arguing about his complete style change in the space of one lynch.

Ok, thats a valid argument. There was a lot of noise regarding his meta of not voting that was confusing me here.

[armlx]

meta is game-to-game

While this is not true, the later part of your post is. I think.

[armlx]

....

Firestarter is unreal obv scum. Just unvoting me there for no reason, not actually responding to points brought up against him....

[armlx]

No reason??

Did you actually read the post, I unvoted for more or less the same reason I unvoted Forbidden....

Why would you be so intent on me retaining my vote on you?

Nothing has changed since you last called me obv scum. Why the unvote.

[armlx]

I still see no responses to my case Firestarter.....

[armlx]

The case on FL was based on a false scum tell, which I corrected, its not "non-commital" to call it a null tell. I like lynches on people I think are scum.

Now please respond to my case. Why are the things I pointed out not scummy?

[armlx]

Firestarter, go back to my PBPA and explain why the things I said are scummy aren't, though I doubt it will convince me as stalling on these kind of things is a pretty massive tell by itself.

[armlx]

Ive explained this in several posts Ive made, including a post with dates & times before your PBPA... in relation to your case, which is based on so called "distancing" from the forbidden lynch.

Please respond to my PBPA.

Your pursuit on me over your thoughts on me is getting rather annoying, what is your case?

I lol'ed. Please read my posts if you "don't see a case". Full PBPA = case.

[armlx]

Responses in red

4: He starts spouting off you could be scum arguments against fl's actions, but he thinks fl is town? Doesn't add up.

No, incorrect, I gave alternatives.

Giving alternatives is just a good way to have a reason to back out. AKA Fence sitting

.

5: This is a good one. Refuses to really vote (BAD)

I did not refuse to vote. Its better if you were to post the actual conversation instead of one of my posts.

You did refuse to vote until you "found something scummy enough to vote for". Really, I feel you are guilty of the same contradiction people are citing FL for today, but you don't have a meta to save you.

Do you get the scent of townie blood up for a D1 lynch???

This was quoted by another player as being a good post...

Whats your point?

Nice attack here on CF Riot, not sure what this falls under but its not good.....

The more conversation on D1 the better for town, theres no need to rush through a lynch CFR....

Fence sit???? I was the only active player that was scumhunting, I was far from fence sitting.

Not voting and saying X is scummy but might not be scum is the definition of fence sitting.

Misrep. of CF's point that you should do something rather then fence sit.


8: Complete 180 on fl. Odd considering fl's behavior falls under his description of fl as town (misguided townie)

This is explained in numerous posts throughout the thread since.

Cite posts please.

9: .

Plainly, you are the scummiest player right now, your posts have been very sketchy, and you'll have me believe that "your plan" was what it was....

How is this a contradiction, please explain....

With your previous analysis, with no in post backing of the 180.

Another.

10:

Then point to the evidence, rather than saying "stop attacking me"....

This is kinda odd, as I don't think this is what fl was doing at all.

What was FL doing then?

Responding to your arguments without evidence, DEFINITELY not just saying "Leave me alone plz"

11:

You say in your last post (quoted at the top of this post) that Bogre & Corinthian are attacking you, yet in your synopsis post above, you havent given either a special one liner, like the rest, yet you seem to be saying that they are attacking you more than Killa!!
I find that very strange indeed....

And for the Killa mention, you have him at the top of your list on the last page, yet your now saying he isn't attacking you any more???

This is pretty wrong. Just because someone is attacking you doesn't mean you have a read on them, and her reasons to attack K7 were outside of the current attacks.

I think this logic was lost by armlx, after I attacked him..!!! As he is contradicting himself by calling me scum, after I attacked him.

I am? I never said you can't have a read on someone attacking you, just that you don't

have

one.

12:

So basically you think that FL1 is ok because she reckons your town??
And that I might be scum beacuse she thinks so also??
Dont be so naive....

Misrep. The quote even said she wasn't necessarily town, and agreeing with someone's case isn't bad.

The qoute this point came from read "He even called me town throughout", I haven't gone back to quote it word for word, but this accurate.

And your point is?

So, FL using the word twist may seem clever, but that is not the case when I pointed to the Alternative of her ploy.... Which was her being scum trying to frame an over aggressive townie....
It is not lying, nor twisting words, as FL has so eloquently put it, it is however a possibilty that was 50:50 at the time of my posting it, was it not???
That ratio, to me, is fairly lopsided at her being scum now, after what has been posted by her since then....

The twist thing is valid, except I'm not sure that was what fl was trying to say you were twisting.

Again, what do you think FL was getting act??? Dont just say it isn't, and not use reasoning with it.
This is the 2nd instance of this in your PBPA

I don't see your point. I don't have to prove their point, I'm only showing yours isn't true.

Also, bringing false probabilities into the discussion isn't good. 50/50 is false for town/scum. Just because there are 2 options does not mean they are equal. The chance of fl being scum laying a trap was fairly large, but 50/50.... not so much.

False probabiliteis???? I dont think so. Are you saying that the alternative I brought to the table is a false probability?
If so, why???

50/50 is not the in game odds of someone being town/scum.

13:
Quote:
May I ask why you have placed your vote on me, rather than leaving it where you believe scum to be???

And Ive checked back through K7's recent posts, and I dont see him throwing votes around, his last few posts were aimed at you, like most other players.

It helps to quote posts....


Except fl just said she felt you were more scummy.... Also deflection to K7.

Its easy to pick posts that you can in turn "twist" armlx.
This post replied to several.
And this post of yours just sucks.

Except I didn't "pick". I went through all your posts. Nice defense though in "this post just sucks"....

14:
Quote:
You saying that some of your attackers are not scum is full of WIFOM....
Again, there are alternatives to that, like them being fellow scum, them being town and leaving a breadcrumb for their lynch..

Do you follow now???


Attacking someone for stating opinions = no.

Again, its good to point out alternatives... I dont believe anything anyone says unless Im convinced they are town.
At this point, youve attacked me for stating alternatives... twice.
And they were valid ones.
If you think otherwise, your gonna need more than your "pop-in, Im here" posts....

Stating alternatives that just serve as ways to back out of an attack is just fence sitting. Also, the deflection back to me is noted.

15:


That's a pretty menial attack here.

What exactly am I to respond to here?

Why isn't that attack menial?

16:

Yeah, Ive given off scuminess by twisting your words..... ok...

See my last few posts if you need clarification as to what I actually was doing......
Giving alternatives.
The fact you have reacted so badly, imo, is the reason I think of you as scum.

BTW, lets not get personal here, Im pretty sure your no idiot, and I can assure you that I aint an idiot either....

Now, am I gonna get a concise post from you or not?
Its the 2nd time you have evaded my request...

He wants a concise post with all the evidence? Also, notice the change back to aggressor.

2 obvious thoughts, whats your point???

Its an impossible task. All the evidence is in pages of things, but concise implies a very short post.

In summary, Firestarter spends this whole portion alternating between attacks on fl's opinions, saying she has given none, then buddying back up to divert suspicion from himself.

No, Incorrect, I attacked for responses, I got responses and was satiated with them.

I don't see what satisfied you with responses, and I'm willing to bet half the game agrees here as fl was lynched.

17: This is an odd one. He just backs off fl for activity reasons and spreads fear of a mislynch. I don't know what to think of this post.

Yes, correct, I did fear for a mislynch... your point?

Unless you have a good reason to think someone is town, spreading fear of a mislynch just creates chaos.

18: This is a good post, just one that feels like he should have made it several posts earlier before he started attacking fl.

19: Pretty waffling stance on fl.

...

20: More waffling, and a semantic jab at fl's post.

...

No responses to theses?

21: Valid post, barring knowledge of k7 and gimbo's metas. k7 and gimbo were doing dumb things, but they always do.

*Token addition in a PBPA of a good point....

You made a good point. I said you had made some in earlier posts too. Singling out one as a "token" is pretty meh.

22: Stated town vibes contradicts his FOS, I really think Firestarter saw the writing on the wall and just abandoned ship to distance himself from the lynch.

Didn't the lynchee do exactly the same thing afterwards...
i.e., FOS me... whats your take on this?

fl saw what was going on. Thats my take.

23-25: valid posts.

26: Just straight up invalidates Gimbo's point with no proof. I am noticing this trend in his responses to me as well.

Please elaborate... post quote, etc, etc...

Every post you refused to respond to my points.

27-29: False logic on the replacement issue (if he was town, he wouldn't have had to have been replaced is not true in any way shape or form)

False logic???
Im starting to see a pattern develop myself... You claiming there is false logic attached to my posts, yet all you say is.. "False logic"....
I made an observation, went and found the actual post that Gimbo made, and made my thoughts clear.

Replacement is a null tell in that scenario. You trying to spin it is not a null tell.

31-32: Same will post later thing he is attacking me for.

33: Attacks me for not posting much, and not removing my vote from fl. The later is exactly the kind of thing I was expecting him to set up by his late unvote and sorta trying to stall the wagon.

So, after initially saying your interest in this game waned, you say that you were waiting for a slip-up somewhere from someone??
Reeks of scum....

Seeing obvious lines of play does not require interest.

My responses are bolded for clarification.

There are questions for you to answer here armlx..

[armlx]

This statement at first really bothers me, but I think I understand what he's saying "You're voting for lurker X, I'm voting for luker Y. If you vote for X and he's scum, I'd be willing to listen to lurker Y being scum (as, I feel, between the two lurkers X has shown more scummy behavior).

While you make a point about the lurker thing being contradictory, that kind of bargaining in larger games actually helps sometimes.

[armlx]

I just dont see either lurker as a real lynch for today.

I concur.

[armlx]

KoC, do you believe K7 is actually scum or just harmful in general? If the later, a lynch is subpar.

[armlx]

Ok, your last post was not clear on that.

[armlx]

You mean my firestarter vote? Not at the moment, but I will reread one game where K7 was scum before making a final decision.

[armlx]

1. You call it fence sitting, I call it weighing up what’s put in front of me.

What you call it does not change what it is

2. I did not refuse to vote, I said I would not be pressurised into voting, not when I unsure of who.

Very well, I will leave it up to others to see if they think it was fence sitting or analysis

3. What’s your point? You call it a nice attack on CF, then for an unknown reason, say its not good..
All you say is its not good, I cant respond to that... sorry.

Sarcasm is a key concept to understand. I'm not sure what kind of false logic that attack falls under, but my point is it is one.

4. Au contraire, I did vote for Forbidden...

Not immediately, after several posts of waffling.

5. No, read up.

I find this in contradiction with your next statement

6. Your trying to make a point, yet did not back it up... On this occasion, you need to cite posts.

Your posts before where you said fl was a misguided townie

7. That’s a matter of interpretation.

Which of fl's actions were you interpreting as such?

8 . Nor do you.

So, because I say you don't have to have a read on someone attacking you, because I have one on you that is a contradiction?

9. My point was made to who I was addressing, you have the issue, so its up to you to make the point, not me.

When I ask you to clarify your point, your response should not be NO U!

10. You have not showed anything to be untrue. If you want to counter something in my posts, then do it with rationale, and reasoning.

Please show me where fl said you were twisting that statement.

11. You failed to respond to my request for you to prove that my alternatives are "false"...

I did. The odds of a random player being scum are NOT 50/50, end of story.

12. It did suck, and still does.

In your manners, please prove why it sucks.

13. Noted?? WTF....

It means I am pointing out you did it

14. Any questions that gather info are not menial, especially when only 1 player is scum hunting.

When they shift suspicion onto someone for an insignificant action they are menial

15. Its not impossible... You can link parts of your concise post back to other posts. A concise post, for me, is one the length of which I’m responding to, or the one I previously responded in.

Ok.....

16. We are guaranteed that Scum will agree, but half the game... I don’t think so. Your attack on me is wishy washy, period.

The joke is half the game lynched fl, there by finding her responses inadequate. Scum won't necessarily agree even. And MY attack is wishy washy? I voted for you at the start of D2, noted suspicion, built the case, and am arguing it. You seem to flip flop on my alignment every other post

17. Chaos??? I didn't see that, I seen votes being placed on Forbidden afterwards, and those who already placed them, not removing them.. Pretty chaotic, eh?

Just because it didn't happen in this case because no one listened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen often. When one strong proponent of a lynch hops of the wagon all of the sudden they often falter and cause random other wagons that lead to sub par lynches

18. You call it waffling, but don’t point to anything. Nothing to be responded to here.

I point to the fact that you keep going "fl could be town, but this is all scummy" or visa versa.

19. *Token post... I’m not going to go into this, its a completely separate convo, it would take way too much time, and quite frankly I’ve better things to do here.

No, please, I have time to listen

20. Your "take" is noted.

What is your take on fl's actions then? Also the contradiction with your previous attack of my "noted" is noted

21. I posted in relation to your PBPA, before & after, you choose to ignore those posts.

I believe I have responded to all your posts after my PBPA. If I haven't, please point them out]/b]

22. Again, with what Gimbo posted, I thought an alternative action may have been better.

Please clarify what you mean here

23. That works 50/50, for both scum & town.....

Then why are you trying to pin it as a scum tell on me if it is in fact a null tell?

[armlx]

Armlx who else looks scummy to you apart from FS?

I would say 2 of you + the lurkers right now, but none of those suspicions are strong enough for a vote.

[armlx]

Corin, why are you responding so harshly to one vote? There is nothing wrong with what Llama is doing, he is not putting someone at risk of a quick lynch, only pre-emptively applying what other people wait a little while to do.

[armlx]

KoC, if this wasn't K7 we were talking about, I would be inclined to vote him. From what I have seen scum K7 actively does dumb things that lead to him via vote trails and what not.

[armlx]

You say you've seen K7 do this elsewhere? It means jackshit to me atm...
Whats your stance on K7 right now, considering the case on him..
One more question..
Its obvious Im one of your targets...
But who's next in line for you?

I've seen K7 just do a bunch of random stuff in almost every game he is in, but is semi-logically random. I'd rather wait on the lynch till we can see if he is linked to scum and what not, which has been the most consistant scum tell for him in my reading.

As for the second thing, see my last post to CF Riot.

[armlx]

LTG, what do you think of my interaction with Firestarter's reflection upon Firestarter's alignment outside of my own?

[armlx]

are you going to say most mafia players don't vote very often to begin with

In my experience on other sites, most of the time when there are still many players left, and multiple wagons, mafia players won't set themselves as the only vote against another player. Especially, you don't see scum starting wagons against other scum. Usually.

It definitely happens here.

[armlx]

Still waiting for the lurkers to answer my questions....

are you going to say most mafia players don't vote very often to begin with

In my experience on other sites, most of the time when there are still many players left, and multiple wagons, mafia players won't set themselves as the only vote against another player. Especially, you don't see scum starting wagons against other scum. Usually.

It definitely happens here.

You trying to tell us something...?

Yawn, that was the exact post I expected you to make. Plz try again.

[armlx]

I guess you have it all worked out then.... Rolling Eyes

What can I say, I see all the plays.

[armlx]

Firestarter, are you ever gonna stop flip flopping on me? This scum - > bad townie when they make the case back - > scum read charade is the EXACT same thing you did D1.

[armlx]

news flash K7 doesnt usualy do much on day 1's and certaining when im a bored townie role. im hapyy to sit here and chat with you guys all untill im lynched.

This.

The fact he hasn't shamelessly wagoned all game makes me feel he is town also.

THAT

killa seven - 6 (TheSweatpantsNinja, Firestarter, Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, StrangerCoug, Corinthian)
Manito - 3 (FaerieLord, LlamaFluff, killa seven)
Firestarter - 2 (armlx, CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

Not Voting - Joubert, orangepenguin

15 alive, 8 to lynch.

-Mod

[armlx]

Meta is bullcrap, especially with someone as... well, from what I'm seeing, batcrap-crazy as K7.

His actions are only crazy compared to a normal person. Compared to his own, they are quite logical right now.

[armlx]

Who do you want to respond to your last post Firestarter? Who is BM?

[armlx]

Based on this thread alone, BM, what are your thoughts on K7's play?

This question is irrelevant, but based on this thread alone his play has been on a similar level as fl's was.

And do you think his play in this thread is less scummy than mine?

Yes, especially considering this push to lynch him based on skewed analysis of him despite the evidence that he plays vastly different to most people being handed to you.

[armlx]

Go ahead. Read any of his posts in other games and tell me your disagree with that analysis. Scummy actions are based on deviations from pro-town behavior, and if a player has a different definition of pro-town behavior you can't cite their actions as scummy based on a discrepancy from normal town behavior.

[armlx]

No, I haven't Firestarter. Do you believe doing so would make me view your actions in a different light?

[armlx]

TBH, Im not really concerned if they do, but your viewing K7 as not being scum, citing his "meta" as evidence...

I don't see your point. I have played with K7 enough to realize that is his meta.

[armlx]

And do you think his play in this thread is less scummy than mine?

I did. I think his play in this thread is less scummy than yours based on his behavior in other threads.

[armlx]

My question still stands about K7's behaviour in THIS THREAD ONLY?

based on this thread alone his play has been on a similar level as fl's was.

It seems you are unable to answer this without referring to his meta, yet you think Im scum without mine...

His meta is extreme to the point it distorts normal scum tells, just like FaerieLord's distorts the lack of voting into a null tell. BTW, where is FaerieLord?

[armlx]

If his meta is scummy enough if distorts normal scum tells, letting him live for it is just retarded.

No, as killing him for it is just the same as lynching randomly.

[armlx]

If I played scummy consistently, I'd expect to be lynched for it. Maybe then I'd, maybe, just change my playstyle to try and help the town some?

I've seen him lynched several times. To my knowledge, it does not help him change.

[armlx]

Well, the scum sure isn't going to ever kill him and, honestly, I dont want him here at lylo. So, yep, maybe I'm just a dick now, but I think he's scummy and I'm fine with lynching him for it.

I would much rather wait on more days of info so we can filter through the noise and possibly see connections between people who flip scum and him, the later being the best way to catch people with a scummy meta.

[armlx]

** - Corin in mini 608 was cop and was much more active in discussion and helped out in sealing a few scum lynches. His rate of posting was also much more there then it is in here, and the content was much greater. This play is nothing like what I saw in that game when he was town.

This is win. I now agree with a Corin wagon and may even join it based on this.

[armlx]

Meta is WIFOM and outguessing at best, and I refuse to lynch anyone based on meta and lurking alone.

Meta is not WIFOM. By that logic, all scum tells are WIFOM.

[armlx]

I'm not really buying the "meta" reasoning. If killa 7 is scummy, he's scummy. His actions and words have been consistently anti-town, and he wasn't really the driving force behind it, but he definitely sprung off the forbiddan mislynch. Based on others observations of him, and my own, I'm willing to

vote: killa 7

.

great the new guy joined the best wagon to avoid conflict
your willin to join to avoid conflict, great nice vote scumbag.

This kind of OMGUS is a mild scum tell on K7.

[armlx]

Meta OUGHT to be WIFOM, because each game is a separate entity...

Metas are only WIFOM once the player knows about them, as at that point they can actively change their behavior.

[armlx]

I've posted my big PBPA on K7 a couple of pages back - how about you do one on Corinthian? That way we can weigh up the two arguments.

I like this.

[armlx]

And no, Armlx, WIFOM cannot be that safe EVER. It's always the benefit of the doubt casted on the player in question. A player can always change behavior, for an entire game, for any reason. You can't follow on that safely. Another reason why you can't rely on Metas is the possibility of Post Restrictions...

No, its not. Once the meta is used once, then its WIFOM. But until the player is made aware of it, it is valid. And post restrictions do not apply here, so irrel.

However, armlx is not being consistent if he is willing to clear K7 on his meta, and think Im scum without reading my previously completed game...

K7 is an example of an EXTREME meta that vastly changes what is and isn't scummy behavior for him. Yours is CLEARLY not and to figure out what your specific scum/town tells are takes a lot larger sample size then 1 game, or even the 5 or so I have on K7.

If we were to go on meta's, we'd only need 1 post each.

False.

[armlx]

Ok, I see what your getting at with the first part of your post, but it still SHOULD NOT be a viable means to clear a player in a different game.

I am not clearing him. I am simply saying his behavior you are labeling as scummy does not fall under the necessarily scummy category for him.

Do you still want my opinion on the comparison between your posts here and in War in Heaven?

[armlx]

Let me guess, you think Im scum based on that... surprise!

I do. In that game, you did none of the thing I mainly suspect you for. When you joined a wagon you didn't later wash out of it for no reason while continuing to debase and not defend that person.

[armlx]

Oh, really?

_____________________

[Note the visible line Im drawing under this...]

Does this mean something? Show me where in that game you did the things I am attacking you for here, which could imply that they are not scummy behaviors by your meta.

[armlx]

What will you hope to prove?
Are you really gonna base every assumption on a player, or try to strengthen what "you already think" based on a meta?

Simple. What I am doing with K7's meta to protect him is pointing out how the things he is doing right now aren't necessarily things that he does more often as scum. If you can prove that, the tells no longer apply and can be ignored in an attack as null tells.

How many games have you played here???

Somewhere between 50 and 100.

Im sure that any one player can go back and check all of your games, and if they want, contrive play to match whats happening here, or find opposite play when you were town....

If they do that, I simply site games Y and Z where they are wrong.

[armlx]

[
They are only null tells if you believe 100% that the accused is town.. You cannot possibly know this if you are town, and given K7's play, he is more scummier than town.
A Meta is not 100%, and I'd prefer if you didn't jump to "protect him" as you say, it seems every attack on him has you following with your comments...

...protecting him

.. I dont like this.

You don't have to believe someone is town for something to be a null tell. If you come in on page 50 and start citing someone who has done numerous scummy things all game as being scummy for "random voting", its fair to say that is a null tell.

The reason for every attack having my comments is because I have yet to see an attack that is not disrupted by his meta.



As can anyone attacking K7, they can cite games where he hasn been scum and played like this... if he has.

My point is interpretation, you interpret K7's play in this thread as town based on other games, 5 games wasn't it, have you actually looked at the games you did not play in involving K7?
Theres also the idea he has seen you were in the game, done a meta on you, and seen that you "do" metas on players, and has adapted his playstyle to that of a townie in other games he played with you...
This is equally possible to him being town based on a meta...
Its interpretation, and I dont like how you are so lenient on 1 player because of it.
The fact remains K7 has acted very scummy in this thread as opposed to others... No amount of meta can change this.

I am merely interpreting it as not scummy enough to lynch, not town or scum necessarily, which means that a lynch on him is essentially random aka poor idea right now.

[armlx]

Full Corin eval coming tonight/tomorrow, 3rd priority thing among games.

[armlx]

Im agreed on this point, but its not the case with K7 in here.

What is the case with K7 then?

But the whole point of my attacks are to gauge the named player, your input, although welcome in parts, stops input from the named player from being posted.

How?

Not random, its that you dont believe in the reasons given from the players voting/suspecting him.

It very much falls on the interpretation of different players views

If you lynch someone for a bunch of null tells, it is essentially random.

[armlx]

So, meta is a shield for K7, but a noose for Corin?

It is. Corin's behavior differs from his observed town norm here, K7's doesn't.

[armlx]

I said it before, and I'll say it again. If it comes down to lynching Corin, fine. If he turns up town, the word meta becomes a lynchable offense and we lynch K7. Deal?

Sounds like a terrible deal. you can't discount analysis just because it was wrong once before.

[armlx]

Lets just start from the beginning. Would someone care to summarize the cases on each person who they think meta is being used to skew an attack on?

[armlx]

what the hell is this? I've only played one game on this site. How can you possibly say my behavior differs from my observed town norm based on one game of hurry-up mafia?

Your play here constitutes a large shift from the normal active player, which was untrue of the last game according to the person who said that in this thread.

[armlx]

I'm sorry, I meant why, just based on their actions in this thread, they are scummy. I know most of the meta reasons as I have pushed most of them.

the only time people would want to kill K7 is if he was being a useful, pro-town player

False. Read Random Mafia 3 for a good K7 scum example.

0.07%

killa seven - 4 (Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, Corinthian, orangepenguin)
Corinthian - 4 (StrangerCoug, LlamaFluff, Firestarter, TheSweatpantsNinja)
Manito - 2 (FaerieLord, killa seven)
Firestarter - 2 (armlx, CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

Not Voting - Joubert

15 alive, 8 to lynch.

[armlx]

K7's scummy behaviour may be his meta, but it's still scummy.

Except if its how he plays every game its NOT scummy as its not behavior he exhibits more as scum then town.

[armlx]

People keep saying "so and so normally plays like this when they are X" - yet every person who believes in meta says that if the person being meta'd KNOWS their normal meta, then the meta is invalid.

How can ANYONE here say, with absolute, 100% certainty, that any of the meta'd individuals here do not already know their own meta? Are you all mind-readers, knowing that these individuals are unaware of their own meta for sure?

This is all WIFOM, we have to go off the evidence we are given, which includes what we assume to be their normal tendencies.

[armlx]

Corin analysis coming tonight.

[armlx]

Thats the thing though. The scum are NEVER going to kill him and this will be brought up every day and pish poshed away.

I'm willing to reconsider him once we hit a scum and can see how they linked to him.

[armlx]

I've definitely cooled to a Corin wagon after a reread. Besides the decreased content level relative to his last game I see nothing really damning.

[armlx]

Isn't it strange that of all the times youve promised to post anything on anyone, you have failed to do so, except when I attacked you... you posted on me...

I can't see how you can say that I didn't do that given my last post.

I don't really see anything that jumped out at me as scummy or opportunistic. Most of his actions were decently explained.

[armlx]

Arm, the mafia would use the thinking. A mafia goon who just lost his partner would like there to be disscussion away from the mafia in total or at least himself as an individual.

Can you clarify what this means?

[armlx]

I refuse to respond to that kind of bullshit.

That was the one really scummy thing Cor did.

[armlx]

KoC, can define and give examples of what "general scumminess and anti-town play" means? Because what you listed for K7 is lurking and 2 jokes he made.

[armlx]

EBWODP: Not that the lurking isn't a valid point given the amount he was posting elsewhere, just saying those other points are reaching a bit unless you can define that.

[armlx]

You are reading WAY too much into the things people are saying in jest.

I agree he is a better lynch then Cor (upon my reread of Cor), but I'm not convinced this isn't just him being him.

[armlx]

Seriously, do you actually want to lynch anyone???

You. We could do worse then K7, as just like as has been said its not like he is being NK'ed, but you is a better option.

When one mafia goes down, the other ones would probably want to make sure neither of themselves come under scrutiny.

I get what you are trying to say, but aren't the mafia ALWAYS trying to do that?

[armlx]

So, in your opinion, armlx, how do those rats try to avoid scrutiny?

Don't act in a manner that isn't pro-town, unless doing so is possible to work around and puts their group significantly closer to a win.

[armlx]

Yes. And you said that you were only willing to talk about another player when someone turned mafia. Sounds awfully familiar to me.

I don't get what you are saying here.

[armlx]

FS, the issue at hand is that people are actively bad at pretending to be pro-town.

[armlx]

So who, from the ones you think are pretending, is high on your list?

I still stand by my earlier comment on this matter.

[armlx]

So that would be me, the lurkers and CFR???

Exactly.

YOU KNOW, THIS DOESN'T GET ANY EASIER...

killa seven - 5 (Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, Corinthian, orangepenguin, Joubert)
Corinthian - 4 (StrangerCoug, LlamaFluff, Firestarter, TheSweatpantsNinja)
Manito - 2 (FaerieLord, killa seven)
Firestarter - 2 (armlx, CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

15 alive, 8 to lynch.

-Mod

[armlx]

I dont believe Ive seen anything in the way of lurkers or CFR from you...

They are pretty far down the list of scuminess compared to you.

[armlx]

We're still split on killa seven vs. Corinthian right now, and I agree that both are scummy. I ask everybody in this game: Which of those two do you feel is scummier: K7 or Corin?

K7, but his lynch is just mainly the lynch of someone to get them out of the way.

[armlx]

No, his lynch is because he's scummy as all getout.

Again, only in a vacuum.

[armlx]

Well, the vacuum is "this entire game" not "every game he's ever played" so yea I'm weighing his play on this game.

I realize I'm not going to change your mind, but if he gets lynched and flips town I can't say I didn't tell you so.

[armlx]

I agree, but if he flips and comes up scum expect the same from me.

Fair enough.

[armlx]

Firestarter, I mean you said something a mafia player would want to happen. Seems like a slipup to me. That in my mind says you are mafia.

What did I say that a mafia player would want to happen?

[armlx]

armlx, I am sorry that this is evidently really hard to follow. I feel you reacted as a mafia player would. Plain and simple. You won't entertain a particularly suspect player until one of the mafia is found out and lynched.

Except I don't find K7's actions on his own especially suspect, and as such this does not apply.

armlx-> Firestarter, CF Riot, K7
Joubert
killa seven
FaerieLord
SpyreX
LlamaFluff -> Corin, Manito, KoC
Firestarter
CF Riot
Corinthian
LaptopGun
Knight of Cydonia
TheSweatpantsNinja
orangepenguin
Manito
StrangerCoug

K7 is a very distant 3rd based on the fact his lynch is essentially random, which is at best what I feel I'm looking at on anyone else.

[armlx]

I hope we won't have to resort to statistics to settle the lynch...

We shouldn't, but getting a mass opinion is good.

[armlx]

So arm, you're just going to deny that my belief applies to you? Sounds an awful lot like Corin and Joubert. ANd I don't see how you can say that. You can say whatever you want to think about K7 right now because that's not required to throw him under the bus later. You indicate he's worth some scrutiny, "only later."

No, I'm proving your premises wrong and therefore showing your theory does not apply.

Your last sentences also make it look like whatever I say, its scummy based on actions I have yet to even come close to making.

[armlx]

I'd say we should be very careful in deciding who we lynch based on the list. I mean, this is not a difficult thing for scum to manipulate.

This is true, this list should be in no way used to directly lynch anyone, only to see who we should question.

[armlx]

I don't think the score thing is good as in this scenario it can only lead to purely numbers wagons.

What I want to hear is a strong case on KoC from those attacking him.

[armlx]

Then what is the point of making the list? I dont think with what was collected we are going to run out and do a quicklynch of one of the top suspects, but this forced everyone to put out three documented FoSs basically. I dont understand why tallying them up is considered a bad thing.

I was mainly looking at it to see if there was a distinct overlap in a lower target that would be worth looking into. And wagons that are just based on those numbers (ie A has more then B) allow for a lot of shameless hopping.

[armlx]

Cases like KoC, FL and manito?

Yup.

If it comes to deadline it will be good in figuring out who we can actually lynch, but until then we should not decide who to wagon based on it and only use it as a basis for questioning people who are under the radar yet thought scummy, as well as questioning people's choices.

[armlx]

Why did Llama decide to speculate on KoC's picks for the list? He didn't give any reasons, either, just threw the names up there. This is two separate points, by the way. First, no one else is trying to guess other people's votes; second- what is the point of a post that presumes the direction of a player's suspicions with no supporting evidence presented? What is Llama hoping to achieve by that post?

This comes across as really OMGUS to me. Its not like he filled them in, only speculated.

What exactly is the case against KoC? I haven't seen any clear evidence as to why he is suspect for so many people...but I might have missed something.

Posts 471, 492, 602 and 644 from me are points against him.

[armlx]

I'll admit that I've stagnated here. It feels like walking in molasses. I dont think without a flip at this point unless someone goes "I AM SCUM" I'm really going to change my mind. I would vote for any of my suspects without issue.

Agree. 5 days to deadline I will be willing to vote K7 if nothing is done for the sole purpose of moving along.

[armlx]

CF Riot, you make valid points. Waiting on the counter points.

[armlx]

In general: what exactly do youall mean by OMGUS? Referring to 1028 and 1029 here. I'm not voting Llama, I'm not even trying to make a serious scumcase against him.

Llama said KoC suspected you, and you just attack him after it. OMGUS.

[armlx]

So, responding to Llama's speculations is an automatic OMGUS?

In the manner you did so, yes. You immediately directed it as an attack, which is going to bring up calls of OMGUS.

[armlx]

Except the past page has had more KoC hate then Corin hate.

[armlx]

Corin is looking like a better and better lynch compared to K7.

Still rather lynch FS.

...AND THAT'S WHERE BABIES COME FROM

killa seven - 6 (Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, Corinthian, orangepenguin, Joubert, StrangerCoug)
Corinthian - 3 (LlamaFluff, Firestarter, TheSweatpantsNinja)
Manito - 2 (FaerieLord, killa seven)
Firestarter - 2 (armlx, CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

15, 8, 5.

-Mod

[armlx]

Random thought: one possible bad side affect of collecting the list is that it probably tells the mafia how good of a job each is doing blending in as town. D'oh!!!

Why does that matter?

[armlx]

I'm mulling over the KoC and the only thing I've noticed is that no one in his situation would want to remain in the game unless they had a very big reason for wanting to stay in this game. Having a good time, likes other players, has a non-vanilla townie roll (in this particular game, we only have mafia), etc. KoC has a motivation to remain. I'm just clueless whether that's good or bad.

This is weak speculation at best. Read the many "Favorite Role" threads to find some people actually prefer vanilla to mafia or even power roles.

[armlx]

The swing between the wagons seems odd to me, but there's no way to really extract info from it without one or both of their alignments.

[armlx]

Just so you know,

I will be away from Thursday till Sunday

.

WHOOP WHOOP

Corinthian - 5 (LlamaFluff, Firestarter, TheSweatpantsNinja, StrangerCoug, orangepenguin)
killa seven - 4 (Knight of Cydonia, SpyreX, Corinthian, Joubert)
Manito - 2 (FaerieLord, killa seven)
Firestarter - 2 (armlx, CF Riot)
FaerieLord - 1 (Manito)
armlx - 1 (LaptopGun)

15 alive, 8 to lynch, 5 at deadline.

-Mod

[armlx]

I would vote K7 most likely if nothing changed.

[armlx]

No, it actually is the deadline. No one I think is actually scummy is remotely close to getting lynched, so may as well go with the person who is the most unhelpful in general and least likely to give off town tells.

[armlx]

Just look at the depth of each of your responses to the attacks on you. His wasn't much better to be fair, but it is slightly so.

[armlx]

I see what you're saying, but I think there's a better chance that corinthian comes up scum.

I realize, and I don't agree.

[armlx]

Unvote, Vote K7

See above, etc etc.

[armlx]

I will not be voting K7

Wait, isn't your whole case on me based on me defending him for "no reason"? Which would imply that you think we are scum buddies?

[armlx]

K7 wasn't my first choice, hell, he wasn't my second choice. However, of the people who have potential to actually be lynched (K7 & Corin) I think that K7 is much more likely to be scum.

This line/post (outside of auto assuming its K7 of the two) should be what everyone is thinking about now. We don't have a realistic way to get a valid lynch on anyone besides Corin and K7. Choose please.

[armlx]

What info could you gain from a real lynch that you couldn't from a deadline lynch?

Complete vote decisions from everyone.

[armlx]

So tomorrow, if one of these guys die, is the other going to be right back up there as the vote leader?

I don't intend for that to be the automatic thing. Its likely other people will disagree.

[armlx]

I also need a reread, and I will be taking a deeper look into why LTG has been NK'd..

Looking into NK's to determine who to lynch is dumb. Too many reasons why a single person could be killed, and always WIFOM.

Vote FS

for aforementioned reasons.

FOS those who swapped to Corin last minute

[armlx]

Unvote: killa seven

and switch back to a

Vote: Corinthian

because numbers mean nothing. They don't lie, but speculation can turn out to be wrong.

STRONG FOS SC

Weak reasoning to switch vote.

[armlx]

I also endorse Manito's case.

I would be good lynching any of FL, SC, and FS today.

[armlx]

SC, I noticed FS's swap. Notice my vote on him. I just felt yours was pretty weak, esp. if both are town.

FL's utter lack of reasoning is scummier though.

[armlx]

I'm really confused here. SC's behavior is actually everywhere.

[armlx]

FL: Fair nuff.

Also, saying that you were in favour of a town lynch is really scummy - at least I wanted to lynch because I thought she was scum.

Where did FL say he wanted to lynch fl regardless of alignment?

[armlx]

Umm... the part where he said he would have hammered anyway right after Gimbo?

Uhh, thats a really different statement. He said that at the point where there was no revealed alignment, he would have hammered.

[armlx]

So, KoC, you would say that the 3 scum are Llama, K7, and FL? If so, are there connections between them?

[armlx]

Fair nuff. FL is definitely someone I could back a lynch on.

[armlx]

Care to put your vote where your posts are?

It is. FS is probably the scummiest person on my list. FL and SC come after them.

[armlx]

I agree with SC. Joubert hasn't really said anything for a long time.

[armlx]

KoC, mind elaborating a little? SC has at least contributed some in his posts.

[armlx]

So FL did want to lynch regardless of thinking fl was town......

Yeah, you were right KoC.

[armlx]

Vote FS for aforementioned reasons.

My first post of the day.

Vote Firestarter

in case it wasn't clear.

[armlx]

Mod: Please prod Joubert.

2nd.

Llama, what thing are you talking about?

[armlx]

armlx has your top 3 changed?

Yes. Its not FS, SC, FL. Not sure on the order of SC/FL.

[armlx]

EBWODP: Not = now.

[armlx]

Yes they do. Vibes start cases

Vibes give you reasons to look at someone closer and see if a case exists.

(Fixed).

And SC, thats a dumb technicality. Answering the question worded like that doesn't mean anything.

[armlx]

Oh. Well, some people (not me) have said in other games (maybe this game?) that going by your gut alone is scummy, and so I figured vibes and guts are basically the same thing. But I guess you have a point (and so does the person who quoted this portion and responded to you).

90% sure it was me. My above response is my opinion on the matter.

[armlx]

Grats. You just proved you're less concise then me?

No, your post implied you could make a case based on vibes, which is BS.

[armlx]

I don't like how a lot of the scummy people aren't voting.

[armlx]

I forgot what the deal was and am lazy, can one of you briefly restate it?

[armlx]

Yeah, I don't see how thats too risky for scum at all.

[armlx]

Doesn't seem like it changes much, but meh. It sounds like just lynching the scummy people as usual.

[armlx]

Pretty much, just a unified voting block for the day.

Mmmk. I'm in if the two lynches are FS and FL, especially as FL has contradicted his meta change and gone back to no votes.

[armlx]

Oh come on... NOW can we lynch KoC? At the beginning of the day he was "sure" the scum were FL, K7 and me, now he is taking the FS lynch cause its the easy option.

FS first. Then I'll consider him.

[armlx]

I think a lot has to do with FS's alignment here, esp. with KoC.

[armlx]

*grumble* still would rather lynch KoC and go from there on FS *kicks can*

Are you opposed to an FS lynch?

[armlx]

I have a much stronger scum read off KoC then I do off FS. If I could just start day vigging people FS would probally go 3.5 behind KoC, manito and SC.

Ok.