Mini 611 - Troy, Meet Helen (Game Over)

[Lord Gurgi]

I announce my presence and receipt of said message.

[Lord Gurgi]

Scum: Farside22 and ShadowGirl, they obviously killed Helen out of jealousy.

Vote:ShadowGirl

, that is all!

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm just going to throw it out there that in a 12 player game, there are usually either 3 scum or 3 scum and 1 SK, depending on how powerful the town is.

As a result I am going to

Unvote: ShadowGirl, Vote: Charter

for not only triple posting, but flipping between ideas between posts, also we can't be sure how many anti-town we've got, so it's probably best to play it conservative and assume we have 4.

Also:

Mod: Can you clarify about a rule:

6. Deadlines may be implemented if I feel that discussion is lagging. At deadline, the person with the most votes will be lynched. In the case of a tie, the person who was voted for first is lynched.

Does this make the determining vote the last vote placed against a person, or the first vote placed against them?

[Lord Gurgi]

Charter, it's not that you thought of something afterward, though I would like to think that some thought goes into these posts, it's that you changed your mind almost immediately after, and it seems like that could be quick footwork to change something you thought looked bad. Also hypocrisy is usually not good.

I'm not sure how people just assumed I thought CF Riot was scum, I didn't even mention his name in my post. I was more, and am, more suspicious of charter because of his accusing CF Riot for something that he then proceeded to do.

Thanks mod, and also I am so happy that we have real discussion by page 2, <3 guys, <3.

[Lord Gurgi]

Farside, I would ask you why bringing up the SK is bad. On much the same grounds as a matter of fact.

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm inclined to agree with Farside on the latest Charter issue, I think he's too eager to set up a timeline of lynches, only scum do that day one, seriously.

Also, concerning had's claim, does no one think it's odd that he claimed so easily? I would have thought that a cop would have tried to avoid claiming. Also, can anyone tell me if it was 5 or 4 votes on him at the time? If it is 4 that just makes him seem to jumpy for my taste, and scumdar.

Also charter, how is pinning something you said on you scummy? You said something scummy and she called you out for it.

On top of that charter, random vote time is over. Stop supplying stupid reasons.

Sleep now, will make better post soon, got a plane trip tomorrow. >..<

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm against a BB lynch today, because if he's town he's just confusing scum, if he's scum, then he's not confusing anyone. That said, we have people that are being detrimental to the town. I still support a charter lynch, because of previously stated reasons.

[Lord Gurgi]

Farside? Are you drunk or just crazy? Regardless you're right.

[Lord Gurgi]

My vote has been on him for a while because he keeps doing it.

[Lord Gurgi]

Hmm, I really want Netlava to defend himself first. He might be continuing on a suspicion from the last game. (I have suspicions about a number of players doing this) Did he hound you last game?

[Lord Gurgi]

Not that I don't appreciate your skill for ignoring an attack on you, but you just criticised me for not answering questions while ignoring a page long post. And no, I voted him for hypocrisy and he keeps being a hypocrite.

However, your response to my post is in the extreme, I wanted to hold my vote until you had a chance to explain yourself and instead you jump down my throat. How the HECK is giving you a chance protecting CF Riot? Until you provide some decent explanation for yourself,

Unvote, Vote: Netlava

[Lord Gurgi]

Netlava likely didn't even read my post, just skimmed it, and jumped down my throat as a result of it, he seems way to jumpy and way too willing to flip around on his decisions. Also mod, Doesn't Netlava have two votes?

[Lord Gurgi]

What? I was responding to your attack when I said I was going to wait to give you time to defend yourself. All I was doing was giving you the benefit of the doubt. I said nothing negative about you at all. Yet I am somehow scum for giving you due turn?

[Lord Gurgi]

Camn, how do you feel about the post where he said I was attacking him when I was defending him?

However, I'm getting a really off feeling from that post. Not enough for anything concrete, but I'm keeping my eyes open.

[Lord Gurgi]

Charter, in specific, in 176 I voted for him, making the second vote. How is that bandwagoning? It also seems like you've got tunnel vision, considering that you

only

commented on four player's posts. There are other players in the game, why not look at them? Also, why did you drop off and only read Walnut? That is just asking for Tunnel Vision.

On the whole I don't like Netlava's posts, he throws suspicion around constantly, and I don't think that if a player acts scummy or responds with smiley faces that it is any sort of town tell, regardless of who you are.

[Lord Gurgi]

Charter, are you saying that I shouldn't care about your comments? You accused me of bandwagoning, I pointed out the problem with such a claim. To explain further:

However, your response to my post is in the extreme, I wanted to hold my vote until you had a chance to explain yourself and instead you jump down my throat. How the HECK is giving you a chance protecting CF Riot? Until you provide some decent explanation for yourself,

Unvote, Vote: Netlava

I meant that he had to explain his actions toward me, as well as his prior actions, which he justified by later saying I was obvscum, then saying that he never said I was scum. I've never played with Netlava before, but I'm not willing to let him off because scummy is his playstyle.

[Lord Gurgi]

Concerning the SK thing, I only brought it up because everyone was assuming that there were 3 mafia. I specifically said that in a 12 player game there is usually 3 mafia or 2 mafia and an SK. I wasn't trying to stir paranoia. I was just saying that there are other possibilities. I'm not sure why it's bad to bring up the SK first, and not bad to bring up the size of the mafia first. Could someone explain it to me?

[Lord Gurgi]

Do you mean you don't like that walnut is waffling or that those two are on it, or both?

[Lord Gurgi]

I will post a super read as quickly as possible. Just letting you guys know.

[Lord Gurgi]

Camn (Blackberry)

Post 88:

To me, this breadcrumbing, in light of camn’s recent post was likely him trying to draw a scum kill. I think this is actually assuming camn’s claim to be true, a very pro-town play.

Post 183:

Maybe it’s me, but ShadowGirl, especially up to this point, was the town lurker, not Battousai. I also don’t like how she says that pointing out breadcrumbs is town, it’s not.

Post 216:

I don’t like how she suggests tunnel-vision as a strategy, but it seems more her play style, as she’s always suggested doing things m to me.

Post 195:

The reason I tried to give you a chance, is that I don’t like to vote hearing only one side of the argument. And no, I haven’t read the last game, by the time of the first page people were already making references as well as carrying on with, ‘Well last game he did and he was town so we can’t lynch him for being scummy.’ This is some of the worst scum hunting I’ve ever seen!

Post 209:

Pro-tip, don’t prevent the people you think are scum from talking. This is where Netlava seems to use the same logic I used against him on Macavenger.

Post 212:

Netlava how in the seven heavens, is it possible to attack you by giving you a chance?

Post 225:

Let me get this straight, you won’t disprove the theory, because it’s not a theory because I made it? Do you not defend yourself because you can’t do it logically, or is this some kind of beyond stupid town play?

Post 232:

Once again, I’m scum because I’m playing scummy because I’m town? Maybe? This is the point where all of Netlava’s reasoning is gone. What little there was to begin with.

Post 244:

Okay, now you’ve totally lost me, you comment on CF Riot, not on Walnut, and somehow this moves Walnut up? Also where you ask for explanations, I don’t think it’s them that needs to explain, you have been claiming CF Riot is scum since page 2. Further, you’ve never even spelled out how I am scum aside from one single post. Care to find some other evidence?

Post 255:

You failed to say why he is scummy, just that he is, as is the case with every other person on your list. Also, you still haven’t defended yourself, could you kindly do that now?

Post 258:

No, scum have worse reasons, because they know their reasons are manufactured. That is the worst defense I have ever seen, you cannot be proved town because you are on all the popular wagons, this is traditionally a scum tell, in fact. You gave three reasons that I am scum, three; one post, asking for an actual defense from you, which this is not, the SK discussion, which I have since explained, and for not pushing a bandwagon. As far as I can tell, your idea of townie play is jumping on bandwagons, voting before defense, and pushing a wagon to the gates of Hell before you check who’s on it and why. Not only this but you deny that you thought my post was an attack, when you have called it a ‘thinly veiled attack’ explanation please?

Post 297:

So, please clarify, Mac accused someone on your list, therefore not scum? Why are you voting for your number three suspect and not your number one?

farside22

Post 162:

I don’t like how she completely avoids the whole Apple discussion.

Battousai

Post 102:

I don’t like how he also tries to set up a lynch, the cop claim day one is nothing but wine, but nonetheless, I don’t like it.

Post 150:

Unlike the general opinion, I thought that this was Battousai trying to make Netlava see that he is proposing a lynch of someone on the basis of them eating an apple.

charter

Post 21 & 22:

Self Contradiction, another dead horse, but I don’t like contradiction, and I think it is one of the most reliable scum tells.

Post 82:

I find this almost funny, charter voted hadhfang, in anticipation of his defense. And nobody cares, and yet (yes I am bringing this up again) when I wait for Netlava to defend himself it’s a scum tell.

Post 98:

I really don’t like this post. He thought he had five votes on him; also I do not like the ellipses as an argument tool. It just always reads scum to me, because it seems like he wants you to draw your own conclusions so he doesn’t have to.

Post 101:

Setting up a lynch is scum. Voting for role envy is Scum or idiot.

Post 117:

It seems pretty obvious to me that discounting everything as WIFOM is a pretty scum move.

Post 156:

I can’t stand this sort of thing. You are directly standing in the way of questioning Netlava, I don’t care about you saying he’s free to answer it, anything useful that could have been gained from his response is now worthless because he can stand behind your statement. Yes, I do think that you are defending him.

Tinsley

Post 61:

Seems unwilling to vote.

Post 179:

Seems to suggest that Netlava is unlynchable, this is bad, and nobody is unlynchable.

Macavenger

Post 204:

This is the first post I have real problems with from him. He is attacking Battousai for lurking when, once again, our town lurker is ShadowGirl. Also his vote for Netlava is because Netlava thinks Macavenger is scum for Macavenger thinking that Netlava is scum. Seems like distancing to me.

Post 210:

I don’t like how he defends me here, which shuts down my defense to ‘I agree with Macavenger.’

Walnut

Post 92:

Puts hadhfang at L-2 with very little explanation. I don’t like how he doesn’t seem to be aware that his vote is L-2, or possibly ignoring it.

Hadhfang

Post 66:

I don’t see the real problem with this post, he was trying to put everything into perspective, as far as I can see.

Post 96:

The claim, oh the claim, I don’t like how he does it, as it seems like an afterthought on his part, but nonetheless lynching a claimed cop day one is not wise.

CF Riot

Post 19:

Don’t like the misleading statistic, this horse has been beaten to death already, but it gives off a weird feeling.

Post 71:

I know other people thought it was a breadcrumb or something, I think it’s just a garbage post.

Post 99:

I don’t like how you ended this, you shouldn’t have to wait for the town to comment to come to a decision about how you feel, that just rings scum to me.

ShadowGirl

Post 151:

A one line post comes after apologising for not posting much, it sounds like intentional lurking to me.

Post 194:

Her first real post, not much actual content, despite everything, saying a lot of what other people have already said.

Questions:
@Netlava, could you explain 59? Why did you already have suspicions for CF Riot?
@Netlava, is post 82 also scummy? Is it more scummy than what I did?

Scumlist of fantastic-ness.
1. Netlava (if it isn't obvious why I think this yet, then I don't know what to do)
2. charter: He has been using WIFOM a lot, setting up things for tomorrow, plenty of hypocrisy also.
3. Macavenger: Yes, for those of you going *gasp* I don't trust his constant defense of me, also he had a relatively short lived time on Netlava's list. I'd also like your opinion of this Macavenger.

Considering other players:
Camn's claim is very clever if she's scum, we're too afraid to lynch her and she has a reason why she isn't NK'd. With all this extra information I don't feel out of place to ask for a role name.
Farside always seems town to me, I'd like to know how she does it, I'd also like a general list from her also. It seems like she hasn't taken much of a stand in this game, which makes me think she might just be anti-town.
Walnut doesn't give much content as a chronic condition. I don't think it's particularly pro- or anti-town behaviour however.
ShadowGirl has been lurking the whole game, I understand her position, but I would like more actual content from her than small one liners and the rare massive post.
Hadhfang is one of the few I think is town. He continued to bring up his bandwagon and the reasons for it even after it had passed.
CF Riot is particularly town to me because he tends to make a lot of logical sense, but at the same time seems very careful not to brush people the wrong way.

[Lord Gurgi]

EBWOP: It seems Netlava's name got lost in pasting from word somehow. It should be there before 195 under Camn's name.
To clarify, this is looking at things I find scummy, or otherwise important. Not necessarily an indication of who is most scummy by number of posts mentioned.

[Lord Gurgi]

Shadowgirl, that got screwed up somehow, I think that something was lost when I pasted from word.

[Lord Gurgi]

Batt, why are you defending LG?

Second.

[Lord Gurgi]

I didn't see the need to say again what I have already said.

Concerning the SK thing, I only brought it up because everyone was assuming that there were 3 mafia. I specifically said that in a 12 player game there is usually 3 mafia or 2 mafia and an SK. I wasn't trying to stir paranoia. I was just saying that there are other possibilities.

[Lord Gurgi]

Because the town should always play conservative, it's just logic. I'm not avoiding the question.

But more importantly, why haven't you responded to all the suspicion towards you?

[Lord Gurgi]

Hello Thesp. I'm not a fan of this "Let's all defend LG" fad, but I don't know what I can do to stop it.

[Lord Gurgi]

*Does the Thesp agrees with me about something dance*

I'm curious, why do you think Farside? I've never been able to find any scum tells on her ever.

[Lord Gurgi]

At L-2, with a non-voter requesting a claim. That means time to claim.

[Lord Gurgi]

You also need to claim. Quit dodging it.

[Lord Gurgi]

Well, Thesp is rubbing me the wrong way with saying he is absolutely sure that Netlava, Tinsley and farside22 are scum. :/

As far as I know that is Thesp's general playstyle.

It is clear to me that Netlava switched suspicion to Walnut when Walnut became the #2 target, to divert attention.

[Lord Gurgi]

Are you asking me? I don't even think that Walnut is scummy.

[Lord Gurgi]

He technically didn't unvote, I'm not sure if Mizzy requires unvotes for replacements.

[Lord Gurgi]

That was a confirm vote. Not a new vote, he's at L-1 and we're waiting for Thesp to hammer.

[Lord Gurgi]

He did unvote, when he asked the mod about Thesp's vote. If someone else could hammer in tandem for Thesp, I don't see how it changes anything. As far as I'm concerned we're in extended twilight.

[Lord Gurgi]

So then your case against fark is me answering questions?

*cough* Dodging the question *cough*

In unrelated news, I still think charter is scum, he's doing a wonderful job of self contradiction and incriminating himself by answering questions targeted at other players, and not in a very pro-town manner either.

[Lord Gurgi]

Macavenger sure seems a lot more gung-ho today.

I'm curious about Thesp and Macavenger's thoughts about Charter.

All aboard.

- After one vote seems suspicious to me. So I'm just going to 'hop aboard' and

Vote: charter

.

What's with all the Walnut hate and the lack of votes on him anyway?

[Lord Gurgi]

Darn you with a possibly malign fire.

[Lord Gurgi]

It seemed scummy to me because it is a resigned way of saying, 'Screw this, there's nothing I can do, why do I even bother.' That is in no way pro-town. Neither is self-hammering.

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm worried about camn condemning charter and now deciding that he's crazed town.

[Lord Gurgi]

Checking in. And I am posting decently regularly CF Riot, it's just that daily posts tend to get lost in this flood that you call discussion.

I am going to

Unvote

. I am going to keep watching and make a new assessment. Anybody have any objections?

[Lord Gurgi]

Hmmm, LG has contributed absolute zero on D2 and seems to really be trying to fly under the radar. Perhaps he could use a little pressure.

unvote
vote:Lord Gurgi

I'm about to go away until Tuesday. No internet access. No one lynch anybody (including me) until I get back.

This is what I'm talking about, I asked if anyone had any objections, and you go out and vote me. Is this in response to charter's post, mine, or are you ignoring them both and trying to distract from yourself? I think that by the time D2 rolls around the time for voting for pressure is over.
Especially since you said that

So in answer to your question, no, in my opinion not voting would not have been the best course of action for a townie in that situation. Voting for Netlava would have been.

So you're suggesting it's good for townies to vote for people they don't find scummy?

Bad for townies, perfectly acceptable for scum.

Now is the time to find your scum and stick with it. And screw anyone that says this is OMGUS, but 2 page contradiction is a way too much for me.

Unvote; Vote: Farkshinsoup

Charter, I still suspect you, so don't get all high and mighty.

[Lord Gurgi]

Wow, LG, that was a huge over-reaction to my vote.

Explain to me why I'm not allowed to vote for reactions on Day 2? Where is that in the general rules on Page 1?

I think your OMGUS vote (just because you point it out and say that it's not, does not make it so) has shown me that my pressure vote was a sensible move.

As for your assertion that I contradicted myself, I'm sure you are quite aware that Mac and I were discussing the specific situation of the hammer vote on Day 1. My vote for you here is completely justifiable, whether I think you are scum or not.

Also, my vote hopping is certainly not going to distract anyone from finding me scummy. It's ridiculous for you to assert that.

I'll leave my vote where it is for now, thank you very much, and I'll try to get around to a reread on you when I return.

You said it was bad for town to vote someone they don't find scummy, you just did that. That is clear cut to me. Also, you are deliberately trying to defer focus from you. I'm also expecting a vote from charter on his next post.

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm also expecting a vote from charter on his next post.

WHOA. I honestly did not see this until after I voted.

Are you admitting to not reading my post?

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm also expecting a vote from charter on his next post.

WHOA. I honestly did not see this until after I voted.

Are you admitting to not reading my post?

Seriously? I read it.

I mean that you voted without reading that, which makes me doubt your credibility.

[Lord Gurgi]

Requested post. So help me, if anyone uses the 'YOU WOULD SAY THAT SCUM' logic on me again I will explode.

Lord Gurgi:
- Did not answer what the point of bringing up the SK discussion was (avoids this question a second time later)
- Votes Charter way back, clings to this vote, affirms his suspicions of Charter multiple times, yet does not push the bandwagon
- Post 174 -

Hmm, I really want Netlava to defend himself first. He might be continuing on a suspicion from the last game. (I have suspicions about a number of players doing this) Did he hound you last game?

In this post, he pretends to want to hear my defense and then subtly attacks my accusations of Riot.
1. "I really want Netlava to defend himself first" - False concern as it should be obvious that I'm going to defend myself. What he's really trying to do is make his intended bandwagoning less obvious.
2. "(I have suspicions about a number of players doing this) " - And just how did you get these suspicions? I'm guessing you skimmed the thread of the last game. So why ask "Did he hound you?" when you already know the answer? Set-up! You could have just stated it outright.
- Disguises the post as "giving me a chance" and "due turn"
- Votes me "until I provide some decent explanation." More like until I get lynched and hopefully no one notices right!? Doesn't push my wagon.
- Dissapearing act enables him to dodge a bunch of my accusations so that I have to summarize them again for him.

-My problem with this entire post is that it asks no questions that I can answer, it is filled with anger, and if I do respond in any way, he, and you charter, use the 'YOU WOULD SAY THAT SCUM' logic. At this point I am officially giving up on deterring charter and just hoping to convince everyone else.
-When I said 'I really want Netlava to defend himself' it was in order to stop a fastwagon like the one that happened to Hadhfang before he could defend himself.
-I have NOT read the other thread, nor do I intend to, however I think that many people (particularly scum) are accusing the same people as last time to make it easier to build a case.
-Yes I did vote for him and he never gave

any decent explanation

he just accused me of being some great mastermind somehow controlling the entire town in bandwagonning him.

Question: Can someone explain why I am being strung up for the Netlava wagon alone?

Note: The reason I am posting again is that there was nothing for me to talk about, all that was happening was a few people complaining about Walnut not being lynched today.

-------------------------

Charter's reread (Gross mischaracterizations)

33 - In response to your scum speculation.
69 - I wanted an explanation from the person

who said it first

140 - ....
174 - No. Just no.
176 - Why then do you feel comfortable bandwagonning me for two days without throwing up a solid case until now?
188 - Is that not the purpose of your post now?
434 - 577 Sigh. It is rather clear that you have characterized me as scum, so if you could tell me how I could convince you otherwise, if that is even possible.
634 - WOW. Just wow. Never be a vig ever. You have the WORST case of tunnel vision known to man, what I was TRYING to do was rid myself of any tunnel vision I might still have and read with as little influence as I could manage, why don't you try that instead of reading for my scumminess.
642 - That's exactly it, he was voting me to get me to post more, NOT because I was scum (at least not from what he said). As I have said this is the time to pick your scum.

Scum (In no order): Charter, Farkshinsoup, Macavenger

It is rather hard to defend against someone who everyone views as 'scummy town'. Vote me or don't I'm tired of people talking about it.

[Lord Gurgi]

Whether you are tired of it or not isn't particularly relevant.

Now, Gurgi.

Regarding post 174-176.

You are stating that 174 was simply a Defense of Netlava? You were just trying to slow down the wagon until he had a chance to defend himself?
Are you saying you had no plan to vote him AT THAT POINT?

Yes. Yes.

[Lord Gurgi]

@ Gurgi....

so how was it that, 2 posts later, you ended up VOTING him?
Be Honest. What changed your mind?

As I said before, when someone jumps down my throat, suddenly out of nowhere accuses me of being some great controller of the town just for trying to preemptively slow a wagon on him, I voted him because that is as jumpy as you can possibly get.

[Lord Gurgi]

Ok, the only things LG has done that you could consider productive is feebly push mine and Netlava's lynch, so from my point of view, he's done nothing to help the town.

And yes, I have found scum, this is the same as last game where everyone had found me, except now it's LG. Walnut is still very high up there and I'd gladly take a Walnut lynch if no one else votes LG. But if part of my case is bad, let me know and I'll clarify.

Building a case under the assumption that I am scum is a bad case. Building a case under no assumptions, then reaching a conclusion based on your findings is a good case. Yours is the former.

[Lord Gurgi]

CF Riot: Read Post 660, it's there.

I'm going to wait for Thesp post.

[Lord Gurgi]

You're saying the answer to a question I asked in 669 is in post number 660? WTF?? Anyways, no. I read your 3 suspects (in no particular order). My question is "Which of the 3 would be the best lynch today and why?"

Pre-cognitive psychic, don-cha-know. Of the three, I would pick Fark, because the town won't lynch the other two.

[Lord Gurgi]

Ok, here's some good LG evidence. "Who's the best person to vote for?" "The easiest to lynch of course!" Not because he's the scummiest or because there's the case on him is the best.

Urgh. Camn just voted someone who wasn't even on the LoS she posted 1 page ago. I don't know how to digest this at all. I'm also bothered by the fact that your trend on Charter is: Scum+Vote -> Misguided town -> LoS #3 -> "Maybe not so bad!"

Well, consider this, I think they are

all

scum, so what is the problem with pushing the one where there is the slightest possibility rather than what would seem a complete impossibility? On your scum list is #1 the only scum, or would you be happy with any of the three dead?

[Lord Gurgi]

Camn would be my kind of vig, guns blazing and all that.

[Lord Gurgi]

Day's gone on too long,

Mod: Could we get a deadline?

.

I'm noticing that both Walnut and Fark are voting for Tinsley now. I would say we should wait for ShadowGirl, but I don't think she would contribute anything to break us out of the petty arguments.

[Lord Gurgi]

FoS Lord Gurgi.

Did you just ask for a deadline?! That's pretty damn convenient, since that bandwagon against you just recently evaporated.

I really don't want to have to switch my vote AGAIN, but I'll do it if you don't convincingly explain to me why you requested a deadline.

I'm asking for a deadline because discussion is becoming petty and pointless. If you're honestly pinning asking for a deadline as a scum tell then I bow to your almighty framing abilities.

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm asking for a deadline because discussion is becoming petty and pointless. If you're honestly pinning asking for a deadline as a scum tell then I bow to your almighty framing abilities.

So you think that the discussion has become petty and pointless. I don't entirely agree with that, but I can see your point, the day has dragged on a while. So how does it help to request that a deadline be imposed on us by the moderator? Wanting the day to be artificially shortened is beneficial to scum, especially scum who would like to force town to choose between someone other than themselves.

You can dismiss my suggestion that this is a scummy move with snide comments, that does not make it any less scummy.

Screw it, I'm switching my vote again.

Unvote. Vote: Lord Gurgi.

I have never seen a deadline placed on a town be detrimental to a town, because it makes the town cut the garbage out, and move onto actually scum hunting, the fact that you're voting me for asking for a deadline is ridiculous.

[Lord Gurgi]

I have never seen a deadline placed on a town be detrimental to a town, because it makes the town cut the garbage out, and move onto actually scum hunting, the fact that you're voting me for asking for a deadline is ridiculous.

There are two different issues that you are trying to make one issue. First: deadlines imposed by moderators and whether they are good for town. Second: requests for deadlines from scummy players in order to corral the town into lynching a townie.

I'll concede that on the first issue, I pretty much agree with you, it does tend to cut out the garbage. The second issue seems pretty clear to me, and my voting you for it is in no way ridiculous.

Wait wait wait. You're saying it's a scummy move because I'm scummy, but if a towny player did it, it would be a towny move?

[Lord Gurgi]

You're saying it's a scummy move because I'm scummy, but if a towny player did it, it would be a towny move?

Please don't put words in my mouth, LG. What I'm saying is that deadlines imposed by the moderator, of their own volition, are a different matter. The reason that I am voting for you is that you very recently were under fire for your scummy play, so the timing of YOUR REQUEST to cut debate short seems highly suspicious.

Nice try, though.

Yes, exactly. You're making a none-scummy action scummy, because I'm doing it.

[Lord Gurgi]

Why not wait for her, see what she had to contribute, and then decide whether to ask for the deadline? Why are you so sure that she wouldn't have anything interesting to contribute? At the very least she has a vote that isn't on anyone at the moment.

Also, why not ask the town whether any of us wanted a deadline imposed before you unilaterally decided to request it?

I'm not implying that these are necessarily scum moves, I'd just like to hear your answers.

1. Because she has throughout the game not contributed very much, I'm not sure when she was supposed to return, but she apparently still hasn't.
2. Yes, let's hold a vote, since that's working so well for finding scum, I'm not going to pass every decision I make by you.

Who, exactly, were you referring to here? Please elaborate.

I will not elaborate on this point, as I think doing so will cause the town to go off on a tangent.

[Lord Gurgi]

Actually,

unvote Fark, vote LG

LG has once again gone to non-contribution as soon as he's not in danger of being lynched, I'd like to urge him to contribute some more.

I've posted more recently than camn. Thoughts about that? I have been contributing for a while since I was wagonned.

[Lord Gurgi]

Also, why not ask the town whether any of us wanted a deadline imposed before you unilaterally decided to request it?

2. Yes, let's hold a vote, since that's working so well for finding scum, I'm not going to pass every decision I make by you.

Never said anything about holding a vote, but I do find it interesting that when you imagine consulting with the town, you immediately thought of me. I thought you said I was scum.

No I said that because you obviously wanted to comment on it, because you've been crusading against deadline since I first suggested.

I will not elaborate on this point, as I think doing so will cause the town to go off on a tangent.

Yes, this would be consistent with your recent attempts to ape Thesp's "I think we've done plenty of talking. It's time to lynch someone." attitude. Of course, as I've pointed out, you have a vested interest in cutting off discussion and forcing a deadline, seeing as you're scum.

I don't blame you for avoiding these inconvenient questions. I'm at L-2, and you have 1 vote, mine. If I was scum and was in your shoes, I wouldn't feel too pressured either.

Sorry, in future I will remember to hurt the town, I am serious that when you want me to tell you things about last game and its effect on this one, you're only inviting more confusion.

[Lord Gurgi]

Actually,

unvote Fark, vote LG

LG has once again gone to non-contribution as soon as he's not in danger of being lynched, I'd like to urge him to contribute some more.

I've posted more recently than camn. Thoughts about that? I have been contributing for a while since I was wagonned.

ONCE AGAIN, LG is throwing unfounded suspicion camn's way. Camn's case is different, she's been minimally posting all along, you post much more when you have some votes on you.

Yes, quite sure LG is scum.

Because she's consistent it's ok? I just feel like if I ate an orange that eating oranges would be a scum tell too. As for Walnut: I don't think he's the lynch for today. But I do think that he is slightly scummy, not nearly so much as others seem to see him however.

charter, do you plan to vouch for Shadowgirl also? Just curious because it seems like your current logic is, 'But it's not LG so it's ok.' If camn were at L-1 I think her posting would skyrocket.

[Lord Gurgi]

I wanted SG replaced a long time ago, I still want her replaced. If she comes back she will be a plague of non-helpfulness.

But you don't deny that this is twice now you've tried to throw suspicion at camn with no reason? My point was that you get very defensive when you're voted. You're doing it again now, even though it's just me and Fark voting you again and it's pretty much a consensous that Fark is the scummiest, and no one listens to me. This was going to be the same dead-end wagon, but now you've upped your posting again as soon as you get a few votes.

I'm sorry...? Do you really think you are that important? You're just being blatantly biased and I'm saying you are, when I criticize you for not accusing camn also, you take it as me throwing suspicion at camn, and even on top of that you say I don't deny it.... What I'm saying is that I think it's a null tell, but you seem to think it's scummy because I'm doing it. If everyone was voting for camn she would defend herself as well, not focus on another game.

[Lord Gurgi]

Can you please clarify what 'it' you are referring to?

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm not suspicious of camn, what I'm saying is that if you're going to be suspicious of me for something, then it dang well out to be universal.

[Lord Gurgi]

EBWOP: Ought not out.

[Lord Gurgi]

It might be suspicious if you were to say suspicious in a suspicious manner again.... Suspicious.

Sigh, I'm not trying to cast suspicion on her, what I'm saying, and what I've said I'm saying, is that if you suspect me for A, you should suspect everyone else that does A. In this case responding to suspicion, which last I checked was the goal of the process on a whole.

[Lord Gurgi]

Do you read what you write? It's kind of sad, but I don't think that scum would be this insane.

[Lord Gurgi]

I don't think arguing this any further is going to be productive. Still convinced you're

scum

confused.

[Lord Gurgi]

Something I noticed: Nobody is against Farklynch excluding Fark. Tinsley I would vote for only as a last option. Walnut is maybe.

[Lord Gurgi]

Well, I don't think that he's lying because scum tend not to claim doctor, much less weak doctor.

Unvote

. Gah now I don't know what to think.

On the upside, we go into tomorrow with at least one investigative role. From the point of if Fark is alive he can clear one person, if Thesp is alive we have an investigation.

I do get the bad feeling though that if I'm going to be lynched it will be because I was the most outspoken one on the Farkwagon, mostly because of the feelings that Tinsley stated, and less because of scummy behaviour.

[Lord Gurgi]

Vote: Macavenger

. I have stated why previously and am too lazy to say it again.

[Lord Gurgi]

More things pointing to the LG + Tinsley pair.

Something I noticed: Nobody is against Farklynch excluding Fark. Tinsley I would vote for only as a last option. Walnut is maybe.

LG would first prefer to lynch Fark, who I'm believing is town, then Walnut, and Tinsley as a last option. It makes sense if Tinsley and LG are a scumpair.

This is what I mean when I say that you work from the assumption that I am scum. I don't want to lynch Tinsley, that does not make me scum with him.

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm looking for scumpairs. You and Tinsley are fitting nicely together. I don't see other people acting towards each other how you two do, so yes, I'm assuming you are scum and how you're acting then makes perfect sense.

Thank you for the admission.

[Lord Gurgi]

Why are you all of a sudden so suspicious of Mac? When I said that we might be getting manipulated into thinking Walnut is scum, he was the one I was thinking was doing it, but I never said that until now.

Why did you suggest I vote Fark over LG in that post of yours I quoted?

This.

[Lord Gurgi]

Ha. Ha. How witty. But really, I never said they you can't be right. It seems like you decide who is scum and then try to get them lynched whatever happens. It's eerily similar to Thesp in fact.

[Lord Gurgi]

Did Macavenger just become the vote leader? I do not like how quickly this thing is moving.

[Lord Gurgi]

Just to make this game that much more interesting, I think we should mass claim.

There are 2 vanilla townies dead already, 2 main power roles are out in the open, as well as 1 more vanilla and however you want to describe Camn's role. So lots are out already, let's get it all out there and force scum to lie. They won't be prepared for it.

Thesp could pick the first one to claim and then each person picks the next one to claim.

No.

[Lord Gurgi]

Well obviously, you don't mass claim in a situation like this. The two possible outcomes I can see:

1. All claim Innocent Bystander, nothing gained, scum proceed to shoot only powerroles.
2. We out more power roles, one or two people slightly believed, scum proceed to shoot more powerroles.
3. We catch a scum in a lie (how?) and hopefully get enough people behind the lynch, partner(s?) proceed to shoot only powerroles.

1 and 2 are the likely, 3 is unlikely. Please explain how this is beneficial.

[Lord Gurgi]

EBWOP: "The three possible outcomes I can see:"

[Lord Gurgi]

How do you know they didn't do that?

I would presume that Thesp would be informed, regardless of whether or not his target was killed.

[Lord Gurgi]

I don't buy the whole, "he's been targetting the people that it's so easy to pin scum on" argument. One of those people was Net. As far as I'm concerned, pushing for his lynch is a bit of a nulltell, since he was acting so scummy. (This is part of the reason I support a Tinsley lynch - he was able to "see through" Net's scummy behaviour to see the inner townie shining through) Mac was right to suspect him.

Am I reading this right? You think Tinsley is the lynch because Tinsley was against the Netlava lynch?

Why are so many people just saying 'what he said' and jumping on the Mac wagon?

[Lord Gurgi]

Why are you in such a rush here Fark?

He should just request a deadline

[Lord Gurgi]

Charter: Respond to every question if you please. You owe it to the town after attacking almost every player in this game for dodging questions.

[Lord Gurgi]

Why are you arguing this point? You asked if anyone wanted answers to any of his questions and I want all of them.

[Lord Gurgi]

CF Riot: Please hold on to them until charter answers, I'd rather he finds them on his own rather than you give him a free out.

[Lord Gurgi]

We are suggesting that he

wait

not that he ignore. We want charter to find what he can on his own without having the answers given to him.

[Lord Gurgi]

Someone with a longer attention span than me might want to count the times charter says: "How is it/this scummy?"

[Lord Gurgi]

CF Riot: I thought I started the Mac wagon.

[Lord Gurgi]

Tinsley what made you decide Charter was more likely scum than Mac?

I changed my vote to charter because the Mac wagon wasn't going anywhere. I doubt it will change anything, but I will vote any of charter, Mac, or Riot if we can get enough for a lynch on any of them. I will only vote Walnut, LG, or SG if it will keep me from being lynched at deadline.

Sorry, no reread on Riot yet. I've been too busy today.

Then would it not make sense to vote mac at the moment, seeing as it has more votes.

Needz Moar Votes on Mac.

[Lord Gurgi]

Someone with a longer attention span than me might want to count the times charter says: "How is it/this scummy?"

Do you disagree that what he said about me didn't show that I was scummy?

No, I think your responses were more incriminating than anything else. The whole 'You are scum for thinking I am' argument just does not hold water.

[Lord Gurgi]

SG, how prepared are you to go with your gut? Would you go to a no lynch at the deadline rather than switch your vote to Tinsley? I put the same question out to LG, CF, Mac, and Walnut. We need to know where we stand.

Never. Ever. No lynch. Ever.

Though I would like Mac to get what he deserves, a short drop and a quick stop.

[Lord Gurgi]

Never. Ever. No lynch. Ever.

Strictly speaking, this is wrong. There are a number of easily identifiable situations where no-lynching is the ideal play, as there are some more uncertain situations where it is best. (This is by no means a situation where we should no-lynch, though.)

Meh, I think if you get to those situations in forum mafia, you've done a good job of messing up already, why break the streak?

[Lord Gurgi]

thats twice someone has used "Too Townie" to defend Mac.

That is not what we are saying.

It's not that Mac is Too PRO-TOWN... its that he is too PERFECT.

Only Scum know who all the townies are.

Real Townies make mistakes. They OMGUS. They WIFOM. They Lynch innocents.
Mac's "perfect play" was more like . . the opposite of that..

SO keep your wiki to yourself.

c

It's not like charter hasn't been defended by 'too scum'.

[Lord Gurgi]

Well, I don't see any downside to this. Tinsley's unvoting Mac makes no sense if he's scum. Mac could be scum and we lynch him. Mac flips town and we lynch LG tomorrow.

unvote, vote Mac

Sorry but I don't like you setting up lynches for tomorrow.

That said, if Mac isn't scum I will go sit in the corner for a while. ._.

[Lord Gurgi]

That was hammer? Time for twilight spam then.

[Lord Gurgi]

That was hammer? Time for twilight spam then.

So is Mac your buddy then? I'm too anxious to wait!

Also, I must say I'm suprised at camn.

I hope he was scum, I'm pretty dang sure, but then I always get nervous at twilight.

[Lord Gurgi]

Wait, did Mac ever claim? Not that it does a bit of good now.

Also, I don't think he did.

[Lord Gurgi]

Well,

Vote: Charter

. That was very unclean bussing you did, you were 'absolutely' sure of scum and proceeded to vote for someone you had been defending all game. To all those who thought Walnut was scum and Mac was town, what are your revised thoughts?

[Lord Gurgi]

Doublepost: Fark care to share a protection, Thesp your investigation?

[Lord Gurgi]

vote LG

obvscum

Look back to yesterday how he votes for Mac, then 'is worried' because Mac gets votes. If you're voting for who you want lynched, you aren't worried like he was.

Quicklynch is not good for town. It grew too rapidly for my taste, people were joining with the 'me too' ideas, only later did they qualify their votes with reasoning, especially given the responses made by Macavenger himself to newfound suspicion.

[Lord Gurgi]

LG, you are scum. You can argue against it all you like, but even if I get lynched today, you will go tomorrow before everyone even posts. I'm fine either way.

You're still defending Mac in that last post, which is dumb because he was scum.

Basic mafia theory still applies, rushlynching anyone minimizes information garnered from their lynch.

[Lord Gurgi]

And also, when you "were worried" was when Mac got three votes, which didn't even make him the leader. Not even remotely close to a quicklynch. Plus, now today, you don't even get on camn for HER quicklynching. You go straight to me. She basically said 'me too' to my reasoning and then hammered before a claim. Since quicklynch is not good for the town, how come you don't even mention her today? I don't think camn is scum, and I'm actually happy she quicklynched so we didnt get a claim from Mac and then not lynch him based on it.

I'm scum for not thinking she's scum but you don't? You are ignoring my rebuttals. Please answer them.

[Lord Gurgi]

No, you're applying the logic that this quicklynch was bad, but you're ignoring everyone but me who had a hand in it. I wasn't the hammer, I wasn't one of the ones who hopped on initially and then justified it later. In fact, I was the one who first suggested that Walnut was town and that we were being lead astray.

The only reason I got on, is that Tinsley basically proved his was a townie to me with his unvoting Mac, and in my head I'm sure Tinsley is town, so therefore Mac was the better lynch. I already got yelled at by everyone else for trying to start up a new wagon, so I had no other option. Like I said yesterday, deadline lynches are about as bad as no lynches and I have no problem justifying my vote today.

I don't see where I'm ignoring your rebuttals. Your rebuttals don't even make sense. You say quicklynch was bad, but talk about me like it was my fault for doing it.

1. Camn hammered to avoid deadline lynch. You say that you weren't the hammer in a manner that suggests that it is scummy to hammer. You then proceed to agree that deadline lynches are bad.

2. I say any quick lynch is bad. We did not have a quicklynch, I was worried that we might. You said that I am scum because I was 'worried' about how fast it grew. I explained this by saying that quicklynches are not good for the town.

3. You do not comment on the substance of my rebuttals. You disregard them as bad because I make them, without commenting on whether or not you agree or disagree with them.

4. You cannot prove that you are a townie. At all.

5. You were pushing the Walnut lynch since near the beginning. Once he turns up town, you cannot claim impunity by saying you expressed doubts.

6. Over the course of four posts you switched from pushing every person to a Tinsley lynch to acting as if he was confirmed town. Along the same speed you switched to Mac being scum.

[Lord Gurgi]

1. Camn hammered to avoid deadline lynch....

Just for the record.. I hammered because I thought Mac was scum. AND because deadline lynches are lame.

Charter: In twilight you asaid you were 'surprised' by me. What was surprising?

I agree, but for the purposes of the argument I was proving that position on the wagon is meaningless if the reasons are the same.

[Lord Gurgi]

2. Mac went from L-2 to lynched in under two hours. That is a quicklynch. Since we in fact did have a quicklynch, you have ignored camn's role in it and honed in entirely on me.

No, that is not a quicklynch, a quicklynch is growing from nothing to lynch with minimal or no time or opportunity for discussion.

5. I expressed doubt and stopped pushing his lynch before I knew he was town. Tinsley also did this. I don't really see any incentive for me doing that when I did (as in well before the Macwagon started I believe) if I was scum, therefore, the reason I did it is that I actually believed what I was saying.

If you think that makes you more town you are very deluded. If all it took to be town in this game was decide people are town and stop pushing their lynch, there would be no scum hunting. You use the defense that you know people are town, which only the scum know, you go from being absolutely sure of someone's lynch to acting as if they are confirmed. The thing is that camn has not turned a complete 180 on multiple people. You have pushed the lynch of so many people, each time sure they were scum, then proceeded to deem them town. The only exception this rule, is me.

[Lord Gurgi]

Then how can we trust them? Hyperbole is the greatest enemy of truth.

[Lord Gurgi]

Your suspicions.

[Lord Gurgi]

It is not helpful, in regards to the success of the town, even if it damage the individual's standing for anyone to be indifferent towards suspicion.

[Lord Gurgi]

It hurts the town more than it could ever possibly hurt me to ignore what you say, as you ignore what I do.

[Lord Gurgi]

I think before everyone gets too sucked in by the whole Charter/LG fight, wouldn't it be a good idea to find out who Thesp investigated?

Well sure, but I'm winning.

[Lord Gurgi]

This goes back to assuming you're scum and proceeding from there.

I would hope that every person who would call himself living would see the inherent flaw with your reasoning. Surely every situation can be twisted to support a guilty verdict, when that verdict has already been assumed. This is the reason why free nations work under the doctrine of innocent until proven guilty, while not wholly applicable to our situation it is required of us to realize that under an assumption of guilt, only guilt can be borne as the conclusion.

[Lord Gurgi]

Damn you guys post fast. I'm post 7 on this page and this page didn't even exist when I clicked reply. *-*;

I'm on a roll here, reading about the foundations of America is a good booster.

[Lord Gurgi]

If only you had some manner with which to state this opinions in a collected and reasoned way. The problem Charter, is that when you make your cases the conclusions have already been made, and many things you draw from the statements of the concerned person, seem twisted to make the position in which you stand more agreeable, whether they are or not. Neutrality in evidence, sureness in conviction are the two necessary things; you have one, not the other. I myself often lack in one or the other, make no mistake, I claim no great superiority when I say what I do.

[Lord Gurgi]

I addressed this previously, with an assumption of guilt, it is hard for one to see even the most benign actions as what they are.

[Lord Gurgi]

I think Charter is scum, as has been evidenced. I had a short reprieve during which I thought I was wrong about my previous convictions, I now realize that I was right. Beyond that I am altogether unsure. It would probably depend on Thesp's investigation, if he investigated the dead man again, or if he got some result.

[Lord Gurgi]

A psychologist might say that saying you like to pretend to be L is you inadvertently suggesting that you are an SK. As do all people want to tell the truth at some level. But I would never suggest that.

Mac turning up scum really changes how the game should be viewed, especially since many were/are surprised at the truth.

[Lord Gurgi]

1 - I was so very wrong about Mac. I would have defended him to the end. I got suckered big time.

Forgot to answer this. Umm, I guess since Walnut is dead my revised thoughts are Walnut is town and Mac is scum. =/ I don't know what else to add to it. I need to go back and see if Mac did any distancing, or if anyone did any distancing from Mac. I used the night phase as time off since school started again and it's been the weekend.

At the time the players who had posted were charter, myself, you (camn), farkshinsoup, and CF Riot. 50% of players other than me. That is sufficient to say they were surprised that he was scum.

I wasn't terribly surprised, it was very reassuring for my ego, since I always doubt myself in twilight.

Thesp: So you are not paranoid as you thought then? I'm not going to press you for your result, since we can rely on the doc protecting you.

All: I am treating Thesp as confirmed, as the only way for him not to be town is for him to be buddies with Fark, which I just don't see at this time. This is not final, but it is unlikely to change. (This does of course assume that all role PM's are complete)

[Lord Gurgi]

Tinsley if you were right (you're not) who would be my buddy? Still Charter? The only thing I can say for my play being mirrored by Mac is just that. Look at the sequence of events. My actions were never following his, always the reverse. I'm assuming he put his support behind the strongest arguments given because they had the most potential to gain support.

Still leaning toward charter, but the timing of his vote on Mac has me a little perplexed. It did not seem to me that Thesp, Fark, or Camn were going to change their vote from me to Mac. If charter is in fact Mac's scumbuddy, I would think he would keep his vote on me in that situation, and let me be lynched at deadline. I haven't ruled LG out as a scum candidate, I just think charter's play has been scummier.

It's called bussing, also your unvote was pretty screwing for anyone still on your wagon.

[Lord Gurgi]

Because it's WIFOM. That's why it doesn't make sense.

[Lord Gurgi]

Why?

[Lord Gurgi]

Or it might be because I'm actually a townie and scumGurgi is clutching to whatever he can to build a case against me.

The amount of WIFOM contained herein is ridiculous.

[Lord Gurgi]

Perhaps that you're avoiding my statement that it was WIFOM and turning it on me instead as to make seem overeager?

[Lord Gurgi]

Why does pointing out that you used WIFOM (As you have now admitted to) twisting everything to make you look scummy?

[Lord Gurgi]

You said I twisted the post to make you look scummy. You then admitted to it being what I had accused it of being. I fail to understand how I twisted the post.

[Lord Gurgi]

Good luck guys, speedlynchig is bad. Um twilight ideas, figure out charter and stop listening to him if he's town.

[Lord Gurgi]

Remember that I suspected charter and CF Riot also. I support thesp saying who he investigated. Because he might be scum with Fark and Mac. I could see how the scum could have been leading us around all game.

[Lord Gurgi]

I'm town also, if you guys haven't figured that out yet, not a power role though.

[Lord Gurgi]

Sigh charter, stop being so scummy, I pinned 2/3 scum. So that's good enough for me. I am curious why I was lynched for being uncomfortable when the wagon grew so quickly.

[Lord Gurgi]

I had him in my scumlist back on post 317. I'm interested to find out Battousai's thoughts.

[Lord Gurgi]

Yeah... Charter is scummy all the time.

[Lord Gurgi]

Blah blah blah, mod neutrality, blah blah.