Mini 584: Sudo_Nym Presents- Over!

[icemanE]

Vote: Marmalade

Cause that's just nasty

[icemanE]

Cake:

Really all you're doing is choosing a random element and voting the player that it matches up with. I don't see the small amount of time later Zeek confirmed to be intentional. So really the last part of that post is poor poor justification for a random vote.

Ninja:

Is there really such a thing as a poor reason for a random vote?

Cake:

Nope, not really.

Me: ...?

[icemanE]

FoS: Cake

[icemanE]

I would like some kind of reasoning behind the FoS from IcemanE.

Out of everybody you're the only one who's said anything remotely contradictory, petty though it may be. Gotta stir the pot a bit.

[icemanE]

However, it's also a bit unfortunate that this item of discussion has clouded everything else in the game. It's easy for scum to hide by agreeing or staying silent.

That's true, might be a good idea to try to move on, no need to read too far into it this early.

[icemanE]

unvote

[icemanE]

How would you like to "Move on", as you expressed in post 45 and then followed up with just an unvote?

I meant we might want to stop over analyzing Cake's post. I unvoted to move forward, we aren't in the random voting stage anymore.

[icemanE]

Unvote, vote icemanE for saying "we're not in the random voting stage anymore but I can't be bothered to scumhunt.

Haha.

FoS: Zeek

I'm not sure I'm ready to lay a vote on him yet because I think we've moved out of the random vote stage, so votes mean more now, but he's rushing a kill for no real reason.

[icemanE]

He might be. Or he might be newbie scum. I'd like to hear him talk about it a little, if that's alright with you.

@sweatpants - what do you want to hear me talk about?

Man this reeks of scum protecting his partner.

@grease - I don't think one vote is a serious enough assault on me to say he's trying to protect me by questioning the vote. If I were L-1 this would make sense.

[icemanE]

I want you to explain why you unvoted (because we were out of the random voting stage), but didn't actually pursue anyone.

Just because I unvoted without providing info on who I WANT to vote for doesn't mean I'm not pursuing people. Truth be told I unvoted because I think it looks much cooler when it looks like:

Vote: Zeek

Now, as for why I'm voting Zeek: He's rushed a lynch on Cake for no solid reason, which gives off scum vibes.

Later Zeek said:

Nice scummy OMGUS vote from Cake.

OMGUS votes aren't scummy, in my evaluation, especially Cake's in this case. Cake raises a good point:

If he had a valid reason to push for my lynch he wouldn't have earned my vote, pushing for a lynch with nothing to back it up doesn't seem very townlike to me.

That's not even an OMGUS vote, really. That's a totally reasonable vote. And that's why I'm voting for him, too: not in defense of Cake (who I'm still slightly suspicious of from that initial burp) but because he's making an unfounded push for a kill.

[icemanE]

EBWOP: This was supposed to appear above "Later, Zeek said" in my previous post:

Are we going to lynch ScumCake or what?

That's the rush I was referring to.

[icemanE]

Now, as for why I'm voting Zeek: He's rushed a lynch on Cake for no solid reason, which gives off scum vibes.

First, I never "rushed a lynch"; he's only got 3 votes.

Second, trying to lynch Cake would only be scummy if he were town. We don't know that he's town. If he is scum, then how am I scummy for pushing for the lynch of scum?

If you are trying to say you know he's town then you must be mafia, because only the mafia know who the townies are at this point.

My stance at the beginning of the game is to give everyone an equal opportunity by assuming they are town, unless they do an early job proving themselves otherwise, which Cake has not.

[icemanE]

'm pretty sure this is a playstyle difference, hence is not a good reason for a vote -- policy votes, I find, are highly problematic and troublesome.

Could you expand on that? I'm not sure who its addressing or what you find problematic.

[icemanE]

Can you clarify? I took this to be an attack on Cake, but your response seems to indicate that it wasn't.

Nah, no attack on Cake, I was just responding to what Zeek said:

Second, trying to lynch Cake would only be scummy if he were town. We don't know that he's town. If he is scum, then how am I scummy for pushing for the lynch of scum?

He's basing the validity of his vote on something that can't be determined right now. He's basically saying "If we kill him and he turns out to be mafia, I was right to rush the kill" which makes no sense.

[icemanE]

How does it not make sense? You said it's scummy of me to want him lynched. But how is it scummy if he turns out to be a mafia member?

It's NOT scummy if he DOES turn out to be a mafia member, but we don't KNOW if he IS. Since we don't know he is scum or have any real reason to suspect he is scum, we shouldn't kill him just to find out.

[icemanE]

One "chainsaw defense" of the guy who cast the OMGUS

I'm assuming this one refers to me... what is a "chainsaw defense?" I've explained why I voted for you and it has nothing to do with defending anyone.

[icemanE]

Since we don't know he is scum or have any real reason to suspect he is scum, we shouldn't kill him just to find out.

One wonders what your scumhunting plan is.

It's safe to assume someone is town considering the town is the majority, even so, no one has said that they know I'm town anyways.

Or yours.

There are a lot of quotes that I could apply this too, and since you all can't be scum, I have a general blanket question:

How are you planning to help find scum?

I'll give you a hint: Saying every early wagon is based on little logic is not a good strategy.

I'm sorry to inform you but I believe you and Zeek are the minority in thining its a good idea to lynch Cake or anyone else JUST to find out if they're scum. So

FoS: Sweatpants Ninja

. And that's how I plan to find scum.

[icemanE]

TSPN isn't voting for Cake, nor has he said he supports my one-man "bandwagon" (as you've called it - please note that I am the only person voting for Cake currently).

And you also failed to answer his question with your OMGUS FoS.

First and foremost I never used the word bandwagon. Secondly that was not an OMGUS FoS, and I implied an answer to his question about how I plan to hunt for scum using my FoS. I said:

So FoS: Sweatpants Ninja. And that's how I plan to find scum.

As you can see I suspect Sweatpants is scum because he supports your idea that its a good idea to lynch people JUST TO FIND OUT IF THEY ARE SCUM. If you have a GOOD REASON to lynch someone (i.e. hard evidence that suggests strongly that they are scum) then its a great idea to lynch them. Currently there is little evidence to suggest that Cake is scum and therefore it would be a grave mistake to lynch him, which you, Zeek, are so eager to do. I don't think we're ready to lynch ANYONE yet since there's NOTHING on this board that is scummy enough to warrant a lynch.

So to make it explicitly clear, I plan to scumhunt by investigation, not random lynching as Zeek and Sweatpants advocate. Currently there is not an imminent deadline so there is no reason to rush things along like you are doing.

[icemanE]

Simulpost for the loss.

Haha

So, iceman: your plan is to vote and suspect people who start wagons. All that's going to do is encourage timid play from townies who don't want to get voted for voting someone else.

Not entirely, no. There was already a few votes on Cake before Zeek said "Are we going to lynch him or what?" So he didn't start the bandwagon. And you haven't started a bandwagon either, but I suspect you. So in actuality that statement is completely false since I don't suspect anyone who has started a wagon. If anyone has started a wagon, its me, Cake, and Joohoono on Zeek. So wagons have nothing to do with my voting.

Also, nice strawman. "Just to find out if they're scum." Don't recall ever saying that.

You're right, you didn't say it. But you supported Zeek's policy, which, when laid out in words, essentially says "We should lynch Cake to find out if he is scum". You call it a strawman, I call it a summarization.

What exactly do you mean, scumhunt by investigation?

I mean that I want to make sure that we are lynching someone based on strong evidence, i.e. an investigation, not lynching left and right until we come up with scum, which seems to be the direction you and Zeek are headed.

[icemanE]

Listen, I'm all for careful, cautious, play when we get later on into the game. But Day 1, you have to start somewhere. And zeek's essentially being voted on for starting us somewhere. By attacking him, you're punishing him for pressuring cake, which is a pro-town thing to do. Pressuring people on day 1 = good.

OK, that's all fine and good. We're pressuring Zeek, does that work for you?

[icemanE]

Ah, I see. Are you some sort of daycop that can get us an investigation on Day 1?

You know what I meant, you aren't an idiot.

[icemanE]

I'm reading through again and this is something that stuck out to me. Ever since we left the "random voting stage" Iceman only votes or FoSes when someone calls him out on "not scumhunting".

For example:

Unvote, vote icemanE for saying "we're not in the random voting stage anymore but I can't be bothered to scumhunt.

Haha.

FoS: Zeek

I'm not sure I'm ready to lay a vote on him yet because I think we've moved out of the random vote stage, so votes mean more now, but he's rushing a kill for no real reason.

I want you to explain why you unvoted (because we were out of the random voting stage), but didn't actually pursue anyone.

Just because I unvoted without providing info on who I WANT to vote for doesn't mean I'm not pursuing people. Truth be told I unvoted because I think it looks much cooler when it looks like:

Vote: Zeek

...

One wonders what your scumhunting plan is.

...

There are a lot of quotes that I could apply this too, and since you all can't be scum, I have a general blanket question:

How are you planning to help find scum?

I'll give you a hint: Saying every early wagon is based on little logic is not a good strategy.

I'm sorry to inform you but I believe you and Zeek are the minority in thining its a good idea to lynch Cake or anyone else JUST to find out if they're scum. So

FoS: Sweatpants Ninja

. And that's how I plan to find scum.

I especially love the first two quotes, because practically nothing changed in the game other than TSPN kept pressuring ice about "not scumhunting" and somehow that caused him to go from an FoS to a vote against me.

IMO, I think he's doing this because he's mafia, so he's trying to appease the town. He doesn't want people to know he's not trying to catch scum, so when someone (it's mostly been TSPN) says "you're not scumhunting" he responds with an FoS or a vote against someone to try to make it look like he is...

Basically, he's trying too hard to simply *appear* to be scumhunting without actually doing it, which I think is scummy.

unvote; vote iceman

This is a ridiculous, absurd attempt to form a connection between defending myself and my voting pattern. I voted for you because you were pushing for a lynch on Cake, you know that, I know that, everyone knows that. I FoS'ed Sweatpants for supporting your idea about rushing the kill. You know that, I know that, everyone knows that. I'm not even scumhunting, either. I'm scumseeing, you don't have to hunt very hard when someone makes it so freaking obvious. Cut the bullshit.

[icemanE]

However, I think you deserve the benefit of the doubt (especially since I liked your good post 105 which brought up something I missed, and that I’m not ready to lynch just yet), hence Unvote and FoS: ZeekLTK.

I think that's a smart choice.

[icemanE]

I support a ZeekLTK claim. It'll at least get the life back into this thread. And he's still in lynch distance

What's a claim, exactly?

[icemanE]

Fair enough, although I have no idea why you'd place Page 5 of this thread nearer to "Page 27 of Day 4" than "Page 2 of Day 1".

Haha

[icemanE]

Hey, I'm here, just waiting for Lowell to weigh in.

[icemanE]

hmm...opportunistic you say...Dude, the whole game is opportunistic. We pick apart what little tidbits of information and reactions we can until people break. So yes, I am opportunistic as well as everyone else that is playing this game. Bad Logic Lowell.
vote: Lowell

Do you really think he deserves a vote for that?

[icemanE]

That post alone no. But his saying my scum hunting act is terrible is worth a vote. Do you think his logic for voting me correct?

No, not particularly.

[icemanE]

@Sweatpants

Out of curiosity, did you you know Zeek before this game? He made it sound like that earlier.

[icemanE]

Sorry for not telling you guys, but my play style really is lurking and observing at the same time. I'm still learning.

Yeah man, if all you're gonna do is lurk, there's no reason to have you alive anyway, so try to be more helpful if you can.

[icemanE]

So, your theory is. . . I intentionally mislynched zeek in that game, just so I could come up with a plausible reason to not go after zeek this game? Now

there's

a stretch.

QFT, that's a little out there.

[icemanE]

#120 iceman tells Johoohno that it was a smart choice to give me the benefit of the doubt (so why does ice leave his vote?)

I left my vote on you because you were a good distance from a lynch, so my vote wasn't an imminent threat, and I was and am still suspicious of you.

[icemanE]

In support of Faerie's overdefensive idea, how about this:

I cast a third vote for Cake in #32 saying "let's stir the pot a lot" (a reference to iceman's response about his seemingly random FoS against cake).

No one says anything about this vote and the game is not really getting anywhere so in post #55 I just make a comment "are we going to lynch Cake or what?"

Soon after, post #58, iceman quotes TSPN's question of him (ice) scum hunting and FoS me saying I am "rushing a kill".

Post #60 Cake votes for me, saying it is because I had no good reason to vote for him (some [not just me, Greasy Spot and Lowell to name a few] call this OMGUS). Also I should point out that my vote on him was never intended to be for any particular reason (the "let's stir the pot" comment proves this).

Post #68 and #69 FaerieLord and Marmalade both say "I find the cake wagon uninteresting" (or some variation of that).

Post #73, TSPN has previously called out iceman for "not scum hunting" so iceman votes for me (third vote). He says "OMGUS votes are not scummy" (because I said "nice OMGUS vote from Cake"), again says I am making a "push for a kill" (even though I have not said anything further about Cake [other than pointing out his OMGUS vote] since BEFORE ice FoSed me).

Post #76 I explain to iceman that I never "rushed a lynch" (because really all I did was make one comment). Then I point out that Cake *could* be scum, and therefore I wouldn't be too scummy for lynching scum now would I?

#77 ice says he will assume everyone is town unless they give him a reason not to.

#78 Marmalade says the argument between ice and I is about "play-style differences" and says that won't help the town.

#79-83 we (ice, Marmalade, and I) discuss this.

#84 ice *admits* that my logic from #76 was correct: if Cake was scum then I would not be scummy for getting him lynched.

#85 Cake still attacks me for not having a valid reason to lynch him (but, again, I never intended to)

#88 I point out how I have the most votes and yet all 3 of them are bogus (Lowell later agrees with me in his recap)

#89 TDC suggests that even if Cake was scum, I could be "bussing him" (lol seriously? he's not even half way to a lynch at this point). TDC also makes some valid points regarding other parts of the game, asks some good questions, but then he puts vote #4 against me. I find this vote to be odd and opportunistic since a) TDC hasn't participated in the game up until this point, b) he asked all those questions of different people, you'd think he would wait to get some responses before he cast a vote... especially since the vote he cast was the 4th against someone.

#90 I call out TDC for putting that 4th vote on me for practically no reason.

#92 TDC responds to me, mostly calls me out because I didn't have a reason for voting Cake but keep in mind my vote was never intended to have a reason, it was during the end of the random stage, and I haven't said anything about trying to get Cake lynched (aka other people to vote for him) since post #55 (a post that wasn't all that serious anyways).

#94 iceman attacks TSPN saying "you and zeek are in the minority of wanting to lynch Cake". He FoS: TSPN after TSPN continues to pressure ice about "not scum hunting". (#95 - I point out TSPN was never in favor of lynching Cake.)

#99 FaerieLord comes out of nowhere (hasn't posted since #68) with a long post of my quotes and his one-liners right below them. Concludes with a FoS on me and TSPN. Basically he says I am "rushing a lynch" (even though I haven't said anything that would attempt to get people to vote for Cake since post #55) and then questions what I said in #76 about "cake could be scum", and then attacks me for not having a reason for my vote... (already addressed this above)

#101 TSPN says "on Day 1 you have to start somewhere, and Zeek's vote started us somewhere". Apparently he is the only person to realize my vote wasn't serious...

#104 TDC questions TSPN's previous posts (about pressure and bandwagoning) but does so mostly only to try to get TSPN to view me as scummy.

#105 I point out how iceman only votes or FoSes when TSPN calls him out for "not scum hunting".

#106 iceman says that is ridiculous, tries to defend his vote and FoSes but a lot of the reasoning is poor. (for example says he FoSed TSPN because he "supported me", but he never did; and says he voted for me because I "pushed a lynch" but again, that never really happened either). So either iceman is bad at reading the game or he is just grasping for reasons to defend himself.

#108 I call out FaerieLord because he attacked me but never voted, just kinda tried to push the bandwagon along with an FoS.

#109 TSPN agrees that FaerieLord was scummy (moreso than ice apparently).

#110 Faerie says he didn't vote because he didn't want to put me at L-1 (it would have only been L-2)

#111 Faerie says "I'm not the only one who hasn't contributed much" and admits he "lurked through the random voting stage"

#113 Nanosauromo comes out of nowhere and says (I'll quote him actually, this is by far the scummiest post of the game):

Hi guys, sorry for not posting much yet.

Reading over the game, Zeek really jumps out at me as being scummy. He says:

Are we going to lynch ScumCake or what?

And then, later, he says:

First, I never "rushed a lynch"; he's only got 3 votes.

Sorry Zeek, but saying "Let's lynch [insert name here] already!" on page 3 is pretty much the definition of rushing a lynch. You are lying, and the only people who have any reason to lie are scum.

Unvote
Vote: ZeekLTK

He really takes everything out of context here. The first quote was #55, and I never said anything to that effect (or any other effect to get people to vote for Cake) since. This just reeks of a player who has been inactive/lurking coming in, seeing who has the most votes, and then going back and finding a reason to vote for them. If this isn't a clear scum tactic I don't know what is.

unvote; vote Nanosauromo

Okay, continuing...


#114 I call out Nanosauromo for being inactive and then voting for me (5th vote), but at the time I didn't realize how scummy that actually was.

#116 Marmalade says what I did (voting Cake and making that comment) wasn't bad (thank you). But he doesn't like how I attack people who attack me.

#117 TDC quotes a question he asked TSPN from #104 and says "quoted for not being answered yet". Basically the question is phrased in a way that if TSPN answers "no" (which is really the logical answer) then TDC will say, "so then you should be suspicious of Zeek and vote for him".

Okay, now let's step back for a second here. Post #89, when TDC enters the game, he has lots of questions for several players (Johoonho, Cake, etc.) None of these questions were ever answered, and they were all fairly relevant to the game. So why did TDC not press these issues? Surely those questions were more important than asking TSPN to change his mind on my behavior. It seems to me, TDC only came into the game with a slew of questions to give himself the opportunity to go in any direction and he didn't particularly care which direction it went in as long as it went against a townie. It happened to go against me, so that is the one he pursued. His questions were ignored by others, but as they had really nothing to do with attacking me, he just forgot about them as well. If he was REALLY interested in having those questions answered, he would have done the same as he's done here, and bring them up again for those people to answer. This shows he's not really interested in finding the correct answers (aka being able to find scum), he just wants to find answers that push his own agenda, which at this point is trying to mislynch me.

FoS: TDC

(would vote if not for Nano earlier).


Okay back to the recap:

#118 FaerieLord says "rushing a lynch is scummy" and quotes Marmalade about me attacking people.

#119 Johoohno gives a good summary of the case against me:
• Last to confirm (weak scum tell as said before).
• Eager to vote for CaptainCake - #55 – (has been brushed away as a joke, but it really didn’t sit well with the crowd here).
• Illogical posts (#76) which is commented in #85 by CaptainCake. This is something ZeekLTK avoids responding to, instead he moves on to something else, namely the votes on himself (#87 & #88).
• Doesn’t really explain his vote on CaptainCake which he also kept all the way up to #105.

This clearly is not very indicative of scum and Johoohno realizes this and unvotes for me, but puts an FoS (understandably) on me.

Also I want to point out that for the third point, I stopped responding to it because in #84 iceman agreed with me about that point.


#120 iceman tells Johoohno that it was a smart choice to give me the benefit of the doubt (so why does ice leave his vote?)

#122 FaerieLord says we need something to "rejuvenate the thread" and wants me to claim (I'm on L-3 at this point).

#125 I don't claim but I try to give as brief a summary as possible as to how I've seen the game play out and conclude with my suspicions on various people who have voted for me.

#126 FaerieLord says his case isn't based on the "rushing a lynch" comment (uhm.... that's all you've been saying it's based on all day!) but rather on my "over defensiveness" (this is the first time that's been brought up, maybe Marmalade's post gave him the idea and now he's trying to run with this because his other point was weak?) Then he tries to say I might have been bussing Cake (okay, seriously???) then says I over reacted (uhm, don't you think some of the people who jumped on me over reacted to the stupid comment I made?) then concludes with the fact that I never made a case (again, forgetting that it happened during the random stage).

#127 TDC continues to attack me. I'd like to take this time to point out that other than his first post, he has done nothing this entire game except attack me... he does question why I should claim though.

#128 TDC points out that I am only on L-3, not L-2

#130 FaerieLord thanks TDC for pointing that out and then votes for me (apparently Faerie is afraid to cast L-1 or hammer votes because then he'll be suspicious for killing a townie)

#132 Marmalade wants to know why I didn't respond to his #116 comment

#133 I tell him that's how I play when I am town (I attack those who attack me)

#134 Marmalade has further questions (that are pretty much the same as I just addressed)...

#136 TSPN says Faerie is rolefishing and votes for him

#137 TDC finally looks at other players in the game and echoes TSPN that he also feels that Faerie is rolefishing

#142 Faerie again outlines his "case" against me:

1)Rushing thing
2)Bad logic when it comes to lynching
3)Over Defensiveness
4)OMGUS

Again, most of that is garbage (especially #1 and #2)


#143 Lowell joins us

#144 TDC finally remembers his questions from a long time ago and reminds Cake about them. Also points out several players haven't commented on the issue, including someone named "Rage" (we have one in this game?)

#145 nm Rage is in a different game

#146 TSPN outlines why FaerieLord's points in #142 are garbage

#147 Faerie makes the "slip up" (IMO) about the vig (saying "Scum would go 1 for 1 sometimes (I would if you were the vig)." Apparently no one else [or at least not Marmalade] finds that wording to be odd. I still do. Also still wants me to claim apparently.

#148 TDC questions the "vig" part of that quote.

#151 Cake makes a rare appearance only to tell us that he is going to be gone longer (must have been prodded)

#153 iceman is waiting for Lowell (why not comment on the other stuff that's happened?)

#155-#156 TSPN and Johoohno both vote for MafiaSSK

#157 TDC seems to have backed off from me and says he is considering voting MafiaSSK, but isn't quite ready to drop his vote (I dunno what else needs to be discussed regarding me)

#158 Lowell's long summary...

#159 ... leads him to (incorrectly IMO) suspect Johoohno for FoSing me, wonder about the Cake wagon (wasn't much of a wagon), call out Greasy Spot for some posts, say Nano's post was "solid town" because of WIFOM (are you kidding me??? [I missed this the first time because I hadn't really remembered Nano's post being so bad]), and says Marmalade is probably town. Votes for Greasy.

#161 I question FaerieLord's "vig" comment and vote for him because of it (it's a better reason than Cake, eh? :p)

#162 FaerieLord, instead of addressing or explaining it says "where the fuck did I say that?" (even though I QUOTED HIM in #161)

#164 Greasy points out that the posts Lowell is VOTING him for aren't really that scummy (they aren't at all IMO).

At this point I will

FoS: Lowell

for trying to tell us Nano is town (in his recap) and attacking Greasy, who had been inactive for a while, for virtually nothing.

#167 I quote Faerie again to show him the vig quote and again ask him what the hell he was talking about.

#170 FaerieLord says "Nothing brought up the vig. I just said that if I was scum and someone claimed vig, I'd quick lynch him. Because vigs go 2 for 1 at times, which is too much for a 3 team mafia to handle." - I find it very odd that he would bring this up, or even paint a situation where he would be scum. This reeks of some kind of outside knowledge or something because, as town, I can't figure out why he would be talking about a vig or anything to that effect at this moment.

As if I couldn't have by now, I definitely will

FoS: FaerieLord

for this.

#171 FaerieLord says he is not feeling the Greasy Spot case (similar to what he said about Cake earlier).

***Also this last post by Faerie again he brings up bussing (this is like the third time he has). Seriously. The situation of me voting for Cake is maybe the worst situation of "bussing" that scum could ever do because there was no attention on either of us really before that happened. The fact that you keep bringing this up means you are still stretching for any reason to make a case against me, which is very scummy.

----


So basically in this recap I have changed my vote to Nano and I feel TDC, Faerie, and Lowell are all suspicious thus far.

To add... after I FoSed TDC I felt a lot of his posts were more pro-town, but that still doesn't negate all his posts that lead to my FoS.

But those are just my feelings based on this recap. Anyone else is free to add their two cents and pick out something I missed, or explain how I misinterpreted something.



To make it easier for the mod:

unvote; vote Nanosauromo

[icemanE]

Did you really need to quote that wall of text? :/

It makes a point, so yes.

[icemanE]

I fail to see what your point is.

Did you read the sentence I wrote above your giant wall of text? I guess not, here it is again:

In support of Faerie's overdefensive idea, how about this:

You are incredibly over-defensive. Look at Faerie's posts for clarity on what that means, and actually read them, too, because its apparent that you haven't from your "analysis".

[icemanE]

I made a recap of the game... how is that over-defensive? Or are you just against anyone doing something that might cause them to find scum?

I'm not against that at all, since that's the point. But your's wasn't really a recap of the entire game, it was for the most part a history of everything everyone has been suspicious of you for and why they're wrong... i.e., defense.

[icemanE]

I'm pretty sure there are better targets out there.

If you could elaborate on that it would help, since Zeek has been the main target for the past few pages, with little focus on anyone else, so it would be nice to hear who you're referring to.

Additionally, I don't envision a Zeek lynch happening at this point, as the evidence against him isn't enough to convince those who haven't voted yet to do so. With that information in hand, it would be helpful to look at a vote history, and the voters reasoning behind their votes. I'll skip the random votes, which I think end around post 58, when Zeek first comes under fire.

Post 60: Cake votes Zeek: "If he had a valid reason to push for my lynch he wouldn't have earned my vote, pushing for a lynch with nothing to back it up doesn't seem very townlike to me."

Post 69: Marmalade votes Grease: "I don't like how he continues to random vote after we are quite clearly out of the random voting stage."

Post 73: Iceman votes Zeek: "He's rushed a lynch on Cake for no solid reason, which gives off scum vibes."

Post 75: TSPN votes mafiassk: "So, are you iceman's scumpartner or are you just buddying up?"

Post 89: TDC votes Zeek: "Your reasoning only makes sense if you are pretty certain of Cake's scumness. You have however not given even one argument, why that is and then go on and propose we lynch him. Care to elaborate?"

Post 105: Zeek votes iceman: "Basically, he's trying too hard to simply *appear* to be scumhunting without actually doing it, which I think is scummy."

Post 113: Nanosauromo votes Zeek: "Sorry Zeek, but saying "Let's lynch [insert name here] already!" on page 3 is pretty much the definition of rushing a lynch. You are lying, and the only people who have any reason to lie are scum."

Post 131: FaerieLord votes Zeek: "My case is about your over defensiveness."

Post 136: TSPN votes FaerieLord: "1. Blatant, blatant, rolefishing. Claim at L-2? Really?
2. Pushing the zeek lynch based on the "rushing" argument. Seriously, did anyone, including zeek, really think that saying "let's lynch cake" would speed anything up? I hope not.

Post 155: TSPN votes mafiaSSK: "My read on him is he's a blatant lurker who will just lurk unless we pressure him into playing."

Post 156: Johoonho votes mafiaSSK: "I agree with ThesweatpantsNinja."

Post 159: Lowell votes Grease: "His rushing to point out that mafiassk's post defending iceman (62) could be scum protecting each other just seems too opportunistic. And way too obvious to be true. There's no way I can sanely read that passage and convince myself that mafiassk just came out and openly asked others not to vote for his scumpartner. I can, however, make a big deal of it if I'm just trying to make it look like it matters. Which is what I think Greasy is doing. It's possible mafiassk IS scum and defending a townie, but that doesn't strike me as all that likely either."

Post 161: Zeek votes FaerieLord: "So basically you're admitting that you are scum and if I'm a vig you'd quicklynch me (to go "1 for 1")?"

Post 166: Grease votes Lowell: "hmm...opportunistic you say...Dude, the whole game is opportunistic. We pick apart what little tidbits of information and reactions we can until people break. So yes, I am opportunistic as well as everyone else that is playing this game. Bad Logic Lowell."

Post 205: Zeek votes Nanosauromo: "He really takes everything out of context here. The first quote was #55, and I never said anything to that effect (or any other effect to get people to vote for Cake) since. This just reeks of a player who has been inactive/lurking coming in, seeing who has the most votes, and then going back and finding a reason to vote for them."



That's the history, in my next post will be my analysis.

[icemanE]

A couple conclusions:

- Zeek has voted most, often without a truly solid reason to back it up, other than his most recent vote.

- Nano and Johoonho are clearly bandwagon voters. Nano comes in at post 113 and votes for Zeek based on what Cake and I have said much earlier in the game. Johoonho even admitted jumping on the mafiaSSK wagon. Nano's is much more suspicious, since TSPN's stated intention in starting the mafiassk wagon was to pressure him into playing, which Jo supported.

- Grease's vote in post 166 is unfounded.

- While Faerie's case against Zeek (i.e. he is over defensive) is certainly true and something I find suspicious, its not enough to warrant a lynch.


With a thorough reread of the game it is apparent that, while Zeek is quite suspicious, there is not enough evidence stacked up against him to justify a lynch... yet, but there is a good deal of suspicious material. I would unvote Zeek but he is currently in no apparent danger of being lynched, and I frequently look at this board, so if he gets too close I will probably pull my vote off until something very solid materializes.

Top suspects:

- Zeek and Nano

[icemanE]

So the reason you aren't unvoting him is because you don't think anyone will hammer before you can remove your vote? I just don't get it... That seems like a bad reason to not unvote if you are planning on it anyways.

Yeah, more or less. There was no imminent threat whatsoever of a hammer, so there was no need to take my vote off him, and I want my vote to sit on the person I'm most suspicious of. Additionally, while I don't necessarily call for a Zeek lynch any longer, I wouldn't be entirely opposed to it.

[icemanE]

I don't think nano is lurking so much as just gone. He should probably be replaced. MafiaSSK, on the other hand, has 'fessed up to lurking intentionally (and is definitely active on the site), and needs to be forced into participating.

After consider this for awhile, I think I agree with you. I'm not looking for a lynch on Mafia though. He really does need to get back into the game.

Vote: MafiaSSK

[icemanE]

Ah, sorry.

Unvote. Vote: MafiaSSK

[icemanE]

@ Marmalade: This quote:

(In comparison to myself, for instance, since I consider Zeek to be more innocent than others because the case against him is pretty crap.)

Why do you consider Zeek innocent just because there is a bad case against him? That's not a valid reason for believing someone is innocent - just because the reason people suspect him currently is not good does not mean in any way that there are no other reasons to suspect him. Speaking for myself, I no longer think he is overly suspicious, but I think it's a bad idea to dismiss the notion altogether simply because no one has brought the right issues to the forefront. The meta that Faerie and co. have mentioned is a stronger reason, in my opinion, to tone down suspicions.

[icemanE]

So wait... we should consider him guilty even though no one has found a good reason to say he is? Your argument is flawed. Just because people suspect him for a stupid reason doesn't mean he isn't scum therefore you should still lynch him? Why don't we just lynch you then? We don't have a valid reason but that doesn't mean there couldn't be one at some point. You can argue back but it doesn't matter becuase I swear we'll find a good reason to lynch you later. I swear you're scum, I just can't find the right issue yet...

Of course I don't think Iceman is scum but he still could be!

A couple posts ago I said I didn't want to lynch him. If you read my post I don't say he's guilty, I just say he's not necessarily innocent, because we don't have proof for that either.

[icemanE]

The discussion of how he played another game succeeded in derailing the town from the pointless track of lynching zeek for being zeek. Of course he's not confirmed town, but there was no good reason to suspect him of being scum now. If you lynched me for being me every game, you'd be right some of the time, but you'd be wrong more.

That's a really solid point.

[icemanE]

Well, you aren't really pressuring lurkers by voting them if you aren't willing to lynch them for it if it comes to that, are you? That's a worst-case scenario, but if he refuses to play, then we need to get rid of him, one way or another. Especially early in the game, when we have the luxury of at least semi-random lynches.

I think I agree with that.

[icemanE]

...bored.

[icemanE]

Other than that he's sort of useless, someone remind me what the case against him is again?

Just look at the last couple pages, they're all about him.

[icemanE]

So now that mafia has more or less destroyed the rhythm of this game, I think I'm gonna go back over everything and see if anyone else jumps out at me. I think everyone else should do the same. I'll report back later tonight or tomorrow.

[icemanE]

Alright, this board is REALLLLLY starting to get boring, so I think we ought to lynch someone, even if its me, by the end of this page. I nominate mafia, he's useless anyways, and it seems like this is the only way people are going to get back into this friggin game!

[icemanE]

My read on mafiaSSK is he's a lurker who will replace out if he gets pressured. Did it in another game I'm in. Really obnoxious, that, but at least we'll be rid of him (hopefully) soon.

Okay since I'm not replaced yet. I have to respond to this post. In that game, I didn't ask for a replacement for that reason. I asked because there was another mini I wanted to be in. Anyways, in this game I've asked to be replaced because I just don't find it interesting.
Anyways, to make thing seasier for the replacement,

unvote

Oh my god dude are you serious...

[icemanE]

unvote

Ice, if you are "bored" then why don't you try to find scum like you said you were going to?

So now that mafia has more or less destroyed the rhythm of this game,

I think I'm gonna go back over everything and see if anyone else jumps out at me.

I think everyone else should do the same. I'll report back later tonight or tomorrow.

Did nothing jump out at you? or did you just say this and then decide that was too much work for scum to do?

Still working on it, probably be done by tomorrow.

[icemanE]

In looking back at the game, I'm now pretty sure that Zeek isn't scum. The way he reacted to the initial bandwagon is pretty telling, especially this post:

Okay, seriously guys.

All I did was spark the game and get it going and all of a sudden I'm on L-2.

Notice my comment was during the random stage AND I never made a case against him (or really pushed it that hard). It's one comment taken way too far by a couple of people.

In reflection I agree with that, it was taken WAY too far, and Zeek might not have done the greatest job defending himself, but that doesn't necessarily translate into him being scum. The thing that keeps me on edge about Zeek, though, is his reluctance to claim - keep in mind there was no real reason for him to do so, BUT simply saying "I'M TOWN A@@HOLES!!" would have been better than nothing. This makes me think he must be a power role of one sort or another.

Something I found pretty amusing in looking back at the early part of the game is that Sweatpants, in almost every single one of his posts, calls someone out for "not scumhunting". The funny thing is, he doesn't do much scum hunting himself - he simply calls other people out for not doing it, whatever that means, and defends people he doesn't think are scum (especially Zeek early in the game). He has not done a single in-depth analysis, like many other active posters. His only REAL contribution has been to start the "pressure" wagon on MafiaSSK, which I am currently a part of. However, he has spent a great deal of his time since then defending his right to start that wagon and arguing the validity of the reasoning behind it instead of looking into other possibilities. The whole idea of a bandwagon is something he was very against early in the game when it involved Zeek, which is fishy, considering that there was, at the very least, a tangible reason to be suspicious of him instead of just a lurk-suspicion. He has adamantly argued that a Mafia lynch is justified, and I agree, BUT, he was so against Zeek's lynch that this keeps my TSPN-Zeek scum team idea fresh, even despite the fact that Zeek's scumminess has been greatly reduced in my mind. It all falls on TSPN.

Faerie pushed a little too hard for a Zeek lynch early in the game for my liking. He was pretty unrelenting. I supported him, for awhile, but he REALLY wanted that lynch.

As for whoever replaces mafiaSSK, I'd like to hear a good bit from there rather quick to prevent a lynch - mafiaSSK has been so useless thus far that it's difficult to imagine anyone pulling him out of the scum gutter he's fallen into. I still think its an OK idea to get rid of him unless the replacement gets active quick.

I will TRY to get to everyone else ASAP, hopefully by tomorrow night, but that's what I've got for now.

[icemanE]

What I mean is that he's so solidly fixed in my mind as being suspicious because of his inactivity and downright crapiness.

[icemanE]

Don't speculate on power roles. Period.

Might I ask why?

[icemanE]

Because if you out him as a power role, who will be at an advantage? Scum, who'll know where to target, or town, who can do close to nothing?(Except maybe a doc)

It's a win situation for the scum

Right, but my speculating that he could be power role has no effect on whether or not he actually is one...

[icemanE]

What I mean is that he's so solidly fixed in my mind as being suspicious because of his inactivity and downright crapiness.

Wait... So because he's been a poor player so far he's scum, but substituting in a better player won't possibly be able to change your mind on him? Honestly that sounds like one of the worst reasons I've heard to suggest a lynch before a replacement is found.

unvote vote: icemanE

Yeah, its just that with a swap in player, the role is kept the same, so he's got a bad image in my mind, is what im saying.

[icemanE]

But here, let me make sure. I've voted for, this game (very succinct reasons being given):
Cake, for his strange reaction to the vote.
You, for not scumhunting.
MafiaSSK, for his strange reaction to my vote on you.
Faerielord, for fishing.
MafiaSSK, for lurking.

If those votes weren't scumhunting (you could contest mafiassk and cake, I suppose, but the other three), you're going to have to redefine the term for me.

I checked out your reasons for voting. You admit in your next paragraph that the votes you placed on mafia and cake could be contested for their validity. I say the same goes for the other two, as well. Voting someone for not scumhunting? I would assume the idea behind such a vote would be to motivate said person to scum hunt, which actually has nothing to do with FINDING scum in and of itself. You aren't voting, in that situation, because you think someone's scum, you're voting to get them moving. So that isn't scum hunting, you're wrong. A by-product of that vote is scum hunting, since whoever you target for it might START scum hunting, but the vote itself does not count as scum hunting.

As for voting someone for role-fishing... well, that's not really scum hunting either. It's more like saying "I think you're scum because you're trying to convince someone to do something that would benefit scum". Once again its not direct scum hunting, based on looking into arguments, but voting for someone based on your own theories on what their motivations are. Yes, it would benefit the scum if he were to claim and it turned out he were a power role, but he would do it on his own anyway, if he were a power role, when he was at L-1, so there is no difference.

Your most recent vote, which was for me:

The even-more-blatant fishing, plus the "mafiassk was very scummy" bit (because he wasn't very scummy), plus the poorly thought out case on me, means iceman is my new favorite lynch target.

If you read my posts you'll see that I wasn't role-fishing, simply saying that I think his reluctance to claim means he must be either a power role or scum, which has NO EFFECT AT ALL on what his role actually is. Do you think me saying that would cause him to claim? No, obviously not, I didn't even ask him to. Voting for someone based on a "poorly thought out case" is also illogical, especially if that poorly thought out case finds you as its target (which in this case, it does), since it has nothing to do with whether or not a person is scum or not - making a poor argument is equally possible from both town and scum, so that makes no sense.

I am almost convinced TSPN is scum, and Cake could be his partner. I'll get into that later, have to go for now.

[icemanE]

Also, TSPN, you're the guy who argued VEHEMENTLY that it was OK to lynch Mafia if it came to that. Now you've tried to pull a 180.

[icemanE]

Had you not said anything, scum might have not noticed. But now they might rethink tonight's kill.

Yes, OK, I see what you're saying now.

[icemanE]

I still sense that you sway between a newbie making newbie mistakes and just shrewdly playing newbie.
_________________

Ha, well this is my second game, so I'm not sure how to debate that...

[icemanE]

Nope, and luckily, its a tremendous stretch of an assertion. But if it wasn't, and zeek wasn't scum, don't you sort of maybe think the scum might think "hmm, iceman, that's a good point, guess we'd better nk the obvious power role." So its better not to talk about it. Also, scum are more likely to be concerned about power roles than town are, so simply bringing it up is a small tell in and of itself.

The reason I'm thinking that way about claims is there was a claim in my first game, which is still going on, which had a huge impact on the game. I don't think that's much of a tell, if I understood initially why it was a bad idea to speculate on power roles I obviously wouldn't have done it. Still seems niggly to me though.

[icemanE]

He was way too eager about lynching mafiassk, disappointed that we weren't lynching, even. But as soon as that wagon dissipated, rather than continuing to go after the person so deep in his scum gutter, he jumped away from ssk like he had never been there.

The rolefishing I'll accept as anti-town as opposed to scummy, but its not points in his favor either.

Ha, if you could find some posts to demonstrate that I'm "disappointed" that we weren't lynching Mafia I'd appreciate it, because that's not true. I do remember saying we should lynch someone by the end of the page, that was page 12. I said:

Alright, this board is REALLLLLY starting to get boring, so I think we ought to lynch someone, even if its me, by the end of this page. I nominate mafia, he's useless anyways, and it seems like this is the only way people are going to get back into this friggin game!

That was during an extreme dearth of posts. I wanted to get the game moving. Other than saying that I think he's really scummy that's pretty much all I've said about mafia. You (TSPN) on the other hand spent a great deal of time rationalizing with people about why it was OK to lynch him, and then you turn around and say it's not when I start thinking along the same lines.

[icemanE]

I agree, but if mafiassk continues to post without playing, then I want lynching him to be an option. I'd just as soon have him replaced, though.


I pretty clearly state lynching mafiassk is a worst-case scenario, and that having him replaced is preferable.

The way that actually reads is, we should lynch him if he keeps this up, BUT, it would be OK to replace him, too.

[icemanE]

Replacing him clearly being listed as the preferable option, with having him actually play listed before that. They were listed in that order for a reason.

And how does the statement "I'd just as soon have him replaced" imply that lynching him is my first choice?

I think you've cleared up what you meant. A misinterpretation on my part.

[icemanE]

particularly obvscum like iceman are allowed to walk free.

Haha, man are you gonna look stupid if you lynch me.

[icemanE]

If anybody is "contributing" to the game without actually saying or doing anything important, it's Faerie at this point. His 329 is completely unnecessary, the first two things he says are unnecessary rehashes of an argument that he wasn't involved in that had already been resolved in 326, and then he calls out Zeek for not reading well, which is funny because he was too lazy to do any reading himself on the previous page:

What exactly is the iceman case again?

All Faerie has done lately is back up TSPN in arguments Faerie isn't even a part of and call people out for things like "speculating on power roles" and "not reading the posts". While it's a contribution its not altogether helpful.

[icemanE]

I've looked stupid before. And that's not a very good defense.

Yeah, I'm just saying that "obvscum" is probably the lamest word I've ever heard used somewhere, and it'll look even lamer if you lynch me and find out you're wrong.

[icemanE]

If you could notice, the only people actually contributing something are you and TSPN. Until we get everyone back on board, we cannot really procede.

This is a fine point. I agree.

I once heard that it's pretty much a scumtell when someone who is being investigated tries to desperately divert attention from himself. Have you ever heard of it?

If it's that much of a scumtell, why not vote for me?

Also, the first point was not a rehash. I said that you never answered his post, which he never said.

I guess I missed the question and in review have still not been able to find it, so I'm not sure what you're talking about here.

Now tell me, what do I honestly have to answer for? These last posts are basically trying to keep some discussion in the game.

If that was your intent, than you have succeeded. Bravo.

[icemanE]

Isn't Zeek saying exactly what I said about mafia? Where's the rabble from the crowd about this?

[icemanE]

Iceman looks like he's starting to crack under the pressure, though I still have no idea what the Iceman case was.

Haha, dude, then you have no basis for making that assessment. Just read the whole game. Don't just bandwagon, weigh in on what you think of others, too.

[icemanE]

I may or may not be slightly inactive for the next few days, final papers to write.

[icemanE]

No the case on him is him being "upset" that we might not lynch someone that had a bandwagon going against them (and which iceman had jumped on). And also because he's made several "odd"/suspicious comments throughout the day.

That might be the "case" but its not the truth.

[icemanE]

After rereading the past couple pages, it seems like no one except for TSPN and Zeek know what "the case" on me is. I guess that's because it's weak, and thereby easy to miss.

[icemanE]

Since I know you read 533 (you replaced in and played for a little bit)

No I didn't....

[icemanE]

EBWOP: Oh, you weren't talking to me. Doh.

[icemanE]

I think Zeek needs to be forced to claim, this is getting whacked.

vote:zeek

[icemanE]

EBWOP:

Sorry, forgot to unvote SSK first.

unvote. Vote: Zeek

[icemanE]

Yes, Zeek, if you aren't mafia you're helping them out by sucking all the attention off of them and onto your crappiness, so either way, you're a liability to the town.

[icemanE]

Grease you asshat. WTF. Now we know who to lynch day 2.

[icemanE]

vote: Grease

You dink.

[icemanE]

I don't buy Grease being doc. I highly doubt the doc would want to rush into the night stage like he did - the doc would want to find out who to protect.

[icemanE]

iceman, no counterclaims. Think about it. This is a mini normal game. Docs are really common. I think Grease's play was as bad as the next person, but it's still pretty plausible that it was just a bad move

While the absence of a counter claim doesn't necessarily prove the claim, I guess you're right, as it's the only claim we have to work from.

unvote

. That's a bummer though, I was fairly certain we had scum, and now all we have is a claim we didn't really want. Now the doc is in the open.

[icemanE]

Not only was he highly scummy yesterday, if anyone had motivation to kill me off, it was him.

Wait, so this is an OMGUS vote? If anyone had motivation to kill you off? What the hell are you talking about.

[icemanE]

Are you voting for me? Couldn't be an OMGUS vote.

I pursued you heavily day 1. At night, as mafia, you might have tried to kill me because of this. Assuming greasy spot is telling the truth, someone tried to kill me, and you would have had motivation to do so. I can't believe that's at all hard to grasp.

Well first of all... no, I'm not voting you. Should I?

Secondly, yes, its quite hard to grasp, since its clearly something you pulled out of your ass to justify your vote for me.

[icemanE]

It's just "one very very scummy thing."

Yeah, it's very very scummy. Why are you defending him?

[icemanE]

After a reread I'm gonna have to

FoS: Lowell

for being the most blatant bandwagoner on the planet.

[icemanE]

Also, and this is funny, Lowell moved his vote TO GS only AFTER GS claimed doc. Scummiest move I think I've ever seen: he wasn't voting for GS until he learned that he was doc. That's so ridiculously scummy I can't help but change my FoS to:

vote: Lowell

I suggest you all take a look at him as well.

[icemanE]

Also, iceman: Not a defense! Anyway, please explain your attitude toward mafiassk yesterday. Has it changed now that he's tsq? If so, why, because you were so sure he was scum yesterday.

No, my suspicions have not gone away, but they have cooled off, now that status is here. However I have been looking into other people lately as no one agreed with me on mafiaSSK.

[icemanE]

Also, and this is funny, Lowell moved his vote TO GS only AFTER GS claimed doc. Scummiest move I think I've ever seen: he wasn't voting for GS until he learned that he was doc. That's so ridiculously scummy I can't help but change my FoS to:

vote: Lowell

I suggest you all take a look at him as well.

Weren't you outing me for protecting GS? Why the change of heart now?

Also, I am not getting what Lowell is trying to say.

I suppose you could say I came to my senses - there was no counterclaim, so it makes no sense not to believe it.

[icemanE]

@ Lowell - what makes you so convinced that GS is lying about being doc?

Also:

Still don't like this, but if GS is lying I suppose we'll get him anyway.

What are you saying here? It seems like you're saying you don't like the fact that you're voting for me. Is that the case? If so, there's no reason to. There is no reason to limit yourself to choosing between myself and Greasy Spot - and additionally, you're misguided on both counts. I am about 90% sure you're scum now. The only thing keeping me from being 100% sure is that you haven't come right out and said it. Other than that I can't possibly imagine you not being mafia.

[icemanE]

FoS: Iceman

UGH! Stop rolefishing!

If Lowel has any kind of reason to suspect that GS is not telling the truth, do you REALLY think it's to the towns best interest for him to tell it? Think what that would mean.

THINK for fucks sake.

He's obviously saying he doesn't like leaving greasy spot alive, you dolt... You're 90% sure he's scum now? Why? Because of some missinterpretation of his post that doesn't make any sense at all? Because he's voting you? Do tell, please dear god how can you be 90% certain that he's scum? You're sounding just like zeek.

Oh, and I am not a doc or a RB.

I know what you're trying to say. I DO NOT think Lowell is doc, at all. I'm not rolefishing at all because if Lowell claims doc I won't believe it anyways.

[icemanE]

Also, Status, I've explained why I think he's scum over the past couple pages, read it for yourself.

[icemanE]

GreasySpot is town by logic of N1

You said yourself that Greasy is town. Why are you defending Lowell. Perhaps a TSQ-Lowell scumteam? I'll look into that.

[icemanE]

Or he just doesn't agree with you. That's also a possibility.

Doesn't agree with what? He said Greasy was town, then he defended Lowell for not believing Greasy, who claimed a town role. It's totally inconsistent, I'd like to hear TSQ speak for himself on that one, since I'm sure he'll do a fine job.

This is not an explanation. If you can conclude that someone that bandwagoned someone, and voted for someone you don't necessarily agree with (although you agreed with him, before I explained the whole scenario in the beginning of the day), then you don't deserve that L avatar.

...I'm no 100% sure what you're saying here. I DID conclude that he bandwagoned (because he did) and he DID vote for someone I didn't agree with... where's the gap? I don't understand why being suspicious of someone for either of those reasons is a band thing. And THANK YOU MASTER for explaining the situation for me, and please, feel free to tell me what I do and don't 'deserve' to use as my avatar. Do you have magical female fairy powers? If not, you don't deserve that avatar.


@ Faerie - what motivates you to speak for other players when questions are clearly addressed to only them? You bring in an unnecessary foreign perspective if you answer BEFORE the player is able to. Making conclusions AFTER the other player answers is appropriate, but I think you befuddle things if you answer questions in someone else's place. It simply complicates the matter.

[icemanE]

EBWOP - band = bad in 2nd paragraph.

[icemanE]

The point is your asking for information to be revealed which there is no benefit to reveal to the town.

I don't want anything revealed. I believe the doc claim.

You haven't given any reason for me to believe lowell is scum at all, let ALONE to make me 90% certain that he is scum.

It's not my job to convince you he is scum. However, I don't see Lowell being a town power role because of the way he INITIALLY REACTED at the start of day 2 (he would already have whatever information he was going to have at that stage):

vote iceman.

For post 438. He seemed a little to eager to jump on someone for the hammer.

At this point a power role would KNOW if Grease was anything other than town. Why wouldn't he take advantage of the opportunity to get rid of him THEN, when everyone else was piling on him?

When Grease claims, Lowell says:

I really hate doc claims.

That was his first comment after the doc claim. That's not something that a power role with more info than the average player says: that's something frustrated scum says. He doesn't say anything that MIGHT indicate that he knows Grease isn't doc until a few posts later, and if he was a power role, THAT would have been the time to start saying "guys, grease ain't the doc." So that's a big part of the reason I'm convinced he's scum.

[icemanE]

TSQ, your point #3 is very poor. I have played a good deal at epic mafia and I understand that scum often claim doc. In another game I am currently play, SD Reaper claimed doc and I'm convinced he is scum, so I'm not THAT inexperienced. I understand exactly what's going on here, whether you like it or not. The policy of lynching all doctor claims is retarded, I don't care how good a player babyjesus is. The sort of defense you're putting up for Lowell really makes me feel like you two are the scum. You seem to suggest that you think he's probably some kind of protown power role, and then you post this:

So I took lowells "I hate doc claims" much more of a "ughhhh...Now I have to try to determine if he's scum fake claiming" then anything else.

My point is that you're incorrect about Lowell being a pro town power role. If this game only has a cop and a doctor I can tell you confidently that Lowell is neither.

[icemanE]

@ Lowell - what makes you so convinced that GS is lying about being doc?

Also:

Still don't like this, but if GS is lying I suppose we'll get him anyway.

What are you saying here? It seems like you're saying you don't like the fact that you're voting for me. Is that the case? If so, there's no reason to. There is no reason to limit yourself to choosing between myself and Greasy Spot - and additionally, you're misguided on both counts. I am about 90% sure you're scum now. The only thing keeping me from being 100% sure is that you haven't come right out and said it. Other than that I can't possibly imagine you not being mafia.

Lowell - explain your vote for me with more reasoning than that I wanted Grease dead for hammering without a claim.

I'm saying I dont' like the doc claim. I'm very happy to be voting you, however.

[icemanE]

Also wtf is going on with the posts right now.

[icemanE]

My text in between the quote and his text.

Also, LOL.

I never said lowell was a pro town power role.

I said that we dont know what he is, so asking him to reveal information that he may or may not have is anyi town. also.

Vote: Iceman

this is because I think a claim from him would be very helpful at this point.

I'm gonna bold this in case it shows up halfway through the quote.

This only serves to strengthen my TSQ-Lowell hypothesis. If everyone else wouldn't mind joining the discussion I'd be pleased.

[icemanE]

TSPN - I think we should both look back at Day 1 and see who else might want you dead. Whoever it was, I'm sure there plan was to kill you to frame me, and the funny thing is, even though they apparently didn't succeed in killing you, the plan still went through. That is, unless there's some bizarre scum combo of like, TSPN, Grease, and Lowell, but I HIGHLY doubt that and don't even want to think of it right now.

[icemanE]

I am very excited for this game to move forward as I am curious to see who is scum, so I think a lynch should happen soon, even if it is me (though, for the town's sake, I wouldn't recommend it). Here is a major Zeek comment, though I think my suspicions are based more in logic than in OMGUS - I'm fairly sure at least two of the three scum are riding me right now. I don't have any strong notions outside of them, so I'm hoping I'm correct.

[icemanE]

this is because I think a claim from him would be very helpful at this point.

My claim won't do anything to convince you to change your mind, so I'll claim now. I am but a simple villager, nothing more, nothing less.

[icemanE]

Oh, I'll concede that someone might have been trying to frame you. But I'm sure as hell not going to not vote for you because I was targeted. I see nothing more suspicious than your day 1 flip-flopping.

That's perfectly reasonable. But sadly misguided.

[icemanE]

How long will it take you to realise! Just because someone defends someone, doesn't mean he is his scum partner!

And it doesn't mean that he's not. either, so I'd prefer to keep it in mind rather than dismiss it, thanks.



Also - fuck this. I'm the only one who is really generating any sort of discussion here, and no one is taking the time to actually look into what I'm saying, so do what you will. TSQ - As I said before, it is NOT my job to convince YOU that Lowell is scum. I think YOU already KNOW that Lowell is scum because you are too. It might be my job to try to convince everyone else, but you're doing a very good job barring that from happening. Carry on, if you can get me lynched, you've brought another townie down. I'm done for awhile.

[icemanE]

I appreciate the "iceman is the new Zeek"-case, but I'd rather find out whether GS is really not counter-claimed first.

Zeek was town you ass hat.

[icemanE]

If Lowel has any kind of reason to suspect that GS is not telling the truth, do you REALLY think it's to the towns best interest for him to tell it? Think what that would mean.

THINK for fucks sake.

Before I shut up for awhile, please explain the above quote, TSQ. You said you didn't say you thought Lowell was a town power role. What are you trying to suggest in that quote, then? That he is psychic? Also, if he knew Greasy was lying, FUCK YES IT WOULD BE USEFUL TO THE TOWN FOR HIM TO SAY HOW!

[icemanE]

Now, Iceman, you say you are 90% certain that lowell is scum. Please post a case for me outlining why you think so?

No.

My question to you is there anything that I'm missing? Please elaborate on your case on me.

There's probably something you're missing, and I don't feel like elaborating at the moment.

[icemanE]

I guess no one here is thinking pro-town, and that's fine with me. The way everyone is talking right now makes me think I was plopped into a game with one town player (myself) and all scum. But that can't be right, because i haven't lost.

Any more players that want to claim they know something, but not what it is?

Let me put it to you this way: as TSQ said, sometimes things are better left unsaid, in the town's interest. Continue to disregard what i have to say, if you feel so compelled.

[icemanE]

And TSQ: If you want ME to outline MY case on Lowell, why don't you ask your buddy to outline his case on ME? He's said nothing of worth all game, and yet you side with him. That's something I consider very scummy. I might give the TOWN a rundown of my case on Lowell later today or tomorrow, but I'm not doing anything for YOU.

[icemanE]

in some cases I am treating players as confirmed town (GS and TSPN)

Why, then, would you support and not challenge a player who clearly does not believe that GS is town, if you consider him confirmed to be so? If you answer any question or point I'll raise in this post please address this one, as that is one thing I can't understand .

I greatly appreciate the change in tone you've shown in your last post. It is much more respectful and reasonable, and as such, yes, I'll outline why I think Lowell is scum. In fact, I have a good chunk of free time on my hands right now, so I'll start from the beginning...

Long ago, in this very game, there was a player named Natishara. Natishara joined the game late, as he had to attend a funeral. Then, Natishara admitted he was lurking in this game because there was a much more complicated game he was playing in that took more of his time.

[quote="Nat:]Anyways, I am watching, waiting, but this game is second on my priority list and that other game is very intricate. [/quote]

Ok, Natishara hasn't done anything too scummy so far. You've gotta feel bad for the guy, right? He just got back from a funeral and he's got this other really complex game... give him his space, it's cool. Then he got too caught up in his other games and asked to be replaced. Enter Lowell.

Hi folks. I'm here. Will read by tomorrow.

Welcome, Lowell. We all hope you'll contribute more than you're predecessor, since unfortunate circumstances prevented him from being a useful member of the town. Still noting scummy to be seen. And shortly after joining, Lowell made a substantial post: essentially, a review and evaluation of the game thus far, for which we were very thankful.

Okay as I read, here goes:

1-25- random voting
27- ice FOSs cake
28-29- mafiassk and cake would like explanation for 27
32- zeek agrees w/ ice, votes cake to "stir the pot"
37- cake offers longwinded response [useless]
39- SPN meta-discusses non-random votes [suspicious]
41- johoohno agrees w/ cake [?]
49- capcake leads w/ 3 votes (marmalade, TSPN, Zeek)
51- johoo calls out ice and greasy for meaningless posts [good]
53- TSPN votes ice for unvoting for no reason
55- zeek pushes cake lynch
56,58- greasy, ice attack zeek w/ FOSs [a little bit off...]
60- cake OMGUSs, votes zeek
62- mafiassk defends ice, orders others not to vote [dumb, but town]
67- greasy spot attacks post 62, posits scum protecting partner theory [weak, and scummy]
68- faiere agrees [still not seeing it]
69- marmalade votes greasyspot
73- ice votes zeek [mediocre reason]
75- TSPN votes mafiassk based also on 62
86- zeek leads with 3 votes (johoo, cake, ice)
88- zeek points out the dumbness of the votes against him [good]
89- TDC votes zeek
92- TSPN chastises people for whining about wagons [good]
96- ice continues to defend his vote on zeek [also good]
99- faiere jumps in, FOSs zeek and TSPN
101- TSPN reiterates his case for a bit more carefree play on D1 [okay]
105- zeek votes iceman for "fake" scumhunting [a bit OMGUS]
108,109- zeek and iceman find faierelord scummy for 99
112- zeek leads with 4 votes (johoo, cake, ice, TDC)
113- nano jumps in, votes zeek (5th vote)
115- zeek again decries his wagon, says there's "scum on it" [useless, scummy]
116- marmalade points out zeek's scummy style, doesn't vote [good]
119- johoo unvotes zeek, FOSs zeek [scummy. not clear AT ALL where he stands on zeek]
125- zeek again questions the legitimacy of the case on him
126- faierelord explains it again
127- TDC opposes zeek claim
131- faierelord votes zeek, fifth vote, wants zeek claim
136- TSPN votes faiere
143- Lowell enters [huzzah!]
144- TDC again opposes zeek claim, wants more from some players
146- TSPN agrees w/ TDC, calls claim request "fishing"
147- faerie claims he'd "think about [killing] if [zeek] claimed vig" [slip, maybe?]
150- TSPN unvotes, looks for new targets
155- TSPN votes mafiassk
156- johoo unvotes, votes mafiassk as well, retains FOS on zeek [odd]

Note that this is a comprehensive summary of everything that happened so far in the game, which proves that Lowell has done his homework and actually read the whole thing before posting. Now, moving on:

A few things:

johoo looks like he was eager to find a different wagon, twice, but doesn't want to admit it. He had his vote on zeek, only to pull it while retaining an FOS. When he followed TSPN in voting mafiassk, he felt the need to stress his retaining of an FOS on zeek. This seems like pressing to me; covering his ass so no one can say "hey, what happened with your suspicion of zeek?"

The CaptCake wagon fizzled out for no reason. No comment, here, other than I'd just like to draw attention to it because I don't understand it.

greasy spot looks really terrible in posts 56 and 67. His rushing to point out that mafiassk's post defending iceman (62) could be scum protecting each other just seems too opportunistic. And way too obvious to be true. There's no way I can sanely read that passage and convince myself that mafiassk just came out and openly asked others not to vote for his scumpartner. I can, however, make a big deal of it if I'm just trying to make it look like it matters. Which is what I think Greasy is doing. It's possible mafiassk IS scum and defending a townie, but that doesn't strike me as all that likely either.

For some reason nano's post 113 gives me solid town vibes. I couldn't tell you why, other than I'm a sucker for WIFOM and doubt he'd be so brazen as to jump in with a fifth vote if he was scum.

I'm also getting solid town vibes from marmalade, both because he's seen some of the game the same way I have and because i particularly like 69 and 116.

Others I'm not sure of yet. For now I'm not feeling the mafiassk mini-wagon, so I'll unvote, vote Greasy Spot.

Here we have Lowell's evaluation of the game thus far, which proves that, not only has he READ the game, he has also THOUGHT about the game. That's great! Lowell also contributes regularly for the next couple of pages, and is very open about his suspicion of Greasy Spot. And then he melds into the cracks for the next few pages, and about 50 posts later, he pops in to say he won't be available for a few days. Jeez, I hope he doesn't just fade away like Nat did. Then the town gets into this whole argument about whether or not lynching mafiaSSK is a good idea... that's TSQ now, for reference. Here's what Lowell has to say about it:

he's sort of useless, someone remind me what the case against him is again?

What happened to that helpful guy we used to know? Now that mafia is on the chopping block, all that analysis seems to turn into an "I don't know what's going on" phase that runs through quite a few of his subsequent posts. Now, when reading this next quote, keep in mind that Lowell currently has his vote on me, and wants me dead:

I don't see the case on iceman, he seems pretty authentic to me. His posts don't look like role-fishing as much as just a wide net of stuff he's willing to talk about. It might not be USEFUL, but unless someone does something dumb in response, it shouldn't cause any great harm either.

That was page 13, ten whole pages ago, and obviously, a lot can change in ten pages. Let's look at the progression of how Lowell worked from not seeing a case on me to finding me a viable lynch candidate:

Iceman looks like he's starting to crack under the pressure, though I still have no idea what the Iceman case was.

This quote is from a time in the game where there were quite a few fingers being pointed at me - I was most heavily under suspicion. And without any sort of tangible explanation, without even a knowledge of WHY he SHOULD be suspicious of me, Lowell makes that strange comment.

Faerie- Is there anything new on zeek? Or is that actually just a "he's annoying" vote?

Here's what this says to me: Hi, I'm Lowell. I'm going to vote for whoever everyone else is voting for because that's the easiest way to appear as a member of the town and still kill them. I'll sway with the tides, and additionally, I'm not going to do any work to make up my mind, or at least, I'll make it seem that way. It's Zeek on the chopping block? Ok, sounds fine to me."

I'd be interesting in pursuing the nano case. But until we have a replacement, zeek's pushing of it looks a little strange.

"Oh, it's nano now? Sounds fine to me."

AND THEN:

The glorious entrance of The Status Quo! (Trumpets Sound), who replaces our friend MafiaSSK. TSQ posts an incredible amount of content, mostly in argument with TSQ or in support of a Zeek lynch.

Then we get this lame post from Lowell:

I'd be willing to lynch zeek to get this game moving. How many votes does he have?

"Oh, it's Zeek again? Jeez, I care so little about whether or not Zeek is town or scum that I'm not even going to bother looking at a VOTE COUNT and doing simple addition and subtraction to come to a conclusion, let alone do any real research. Oh, and here's my requisite bandwagon vote."

Still only 5? unvote, vote zeek.

So... Zeek was lynched shortly thereafter, with Greasy Spot stupidly placing that final vote before a claim (though as it turned out, the claim wouldn't have done much for Zeek, as he was vanilla). Everyone was pissed, myself included. I said: (post 438, for reference)

Grease you asshat. WTF. Now we know who to lynch day 2.

Everyone else expressed their disbelief/anger.

Here's a comment, quite similar to mine, that TSQ made 5 posts later:

So you're one of those players. We're lynching you tomorrow, and if you're not scum, I'm putting you on my mental shitlist of players never to associate with.

Keep those above quotations in mind, I will make mention of them shortly.

Here's what Lowell has to say about Greasy's hammer:

Some of this seems like crocodile tears to me. zeek has as good a chance as not to come up scum, so why the end of the world talk?

Essentially, I don't give a fuck. Scum know who's town and who isn't. I'm betting Lowell felt pretty satisfied with this outcome - he knew both his partners had survived the day. And at the dawn of day 2, in the midst of all this anger and frustration that Greasy had just hammered prematurely, LOWELL:

vote iceman.

For post 438. He seemed a little to eager to jump on someone for the hammer.

This is where you should refer back to the post where I say we should kill Grease, for a perfectly good reason, which is that Grease quickhammered Zeek. Everyone else was thinking along the same lines, and thus, a bandwagon formed. BUT: Lowell decided he wasn't even going to address Grease's hammer, and instead voted for me, seemingly entirely out of the blue, especially when you consider that TSQ said almost EXACTLY THE SAME THING, which Lowell also fails to address in his post. Strange...

And then Grease claims doc, and the wagon falls apart. Lowell says he hates doc claims. Then he votes for the claimed doc. Even now there is no solid reason not to believe the claim, a fact which I quickly realized when no one counter-claimed (thus, the change in my own thinking). But instead of changing Lowell's mind from "Hey, Grease is probably scum for that quickhammer" to "Grease might not be scum because he claimed doc, and his claim fits with what happened the night before since there was no kill", it changed Lowell's mind from "Iceman is scummy because he wanted to lynch the guy that jumped in out of nowhere and hammered before the claim" to "Grease is scummy because he claimed doc". There is REALLY. SOMETHING. WRONG WITH THAT.

unvote, vote GS. This claim reeks to me. I believe there's a doc, but I dont' believe its him. Letting him off the hook is only forcing the doc to reveal.

I'll still vote iceman, too, btw.

"Guys, I really think we should go back to GS - he might have claimed doc, and there hasn't been a CC, and it would be great if we could lynch the doc cause then I wouldn't have to use a NK on it... but I'm always up for whatever bandwagon happens to start rolling, and its starting to look like it might be Iceman..."

unvote, vote iceman.

Still don't like this, but if GS is lying I suppose we'll get him anyway.

And that's more or less where we are at now. He still hasn't given any sort of valid reason for his vote on me, let alone his vote on anyone else all game, really, other than that one post he made way back when. He doesn't care who we lynch as long as it's not one of his scum partners, he just wants townies dead. If I had another hour to kill I'd explain why I think TSQ is his partner but I'll have to save that for tomorrow or the next day... it'll strengthen the Lowell case as well but I'm out of time for now, enjoy.

[icemanE]

A, he is confirmed town

He is ALMOST CERTAINLY town, but by no means confirmed.

[icemanE]

EBWOP - TSQ = TSPN in:

mostly in argument with TSQ or in support of a Zeek lynch.

[icemanE]

IF he's the real doc, he'll turn up dead anyway and it won't matter.

Right, but why in god's name would we lynch him just because he's going to die at night anyways? That's a complete waste of a lynch, and gives scum an extra kill. What TSQ said directly above me is right.

(you, most notably) started apologizing for it before anything was revealed.

Who apologized, and for what? I wanted to kill Zeek as much as anybody but I wanted him to claim first, duh.

After GS claimed doc, you immediately shifted gears and tried to show your good side.

Also, that's false. I was very skeptical initially, till Faerie said something that made me sit down and think about it, and I realized I was wrong to doubt the claim without a counter-claim, which still doesn't exist.

It's as good evidence for GS actually BEING the doc as I've seen.

...And yet, you still don't believe him...

[icemanE]

If you don't want to elaborate on either case, how do you expect us to think lowell is scum?

I DID wind up elaborating, but I didn't feel like it at the time.

Also, why probably? You don't know the case you are throwing about?

I said probably because: A. I can't possibly know what's exactly going on in his head and B. He MIGHT know what I'm talking about and be pretending he doesn't, like I said, I can't determine that from where I'm sitting.

Why are you quoting "certain scum" for what you say?

Just because he is scum in this game doesn't mean he doesn't know what he's talking about when referring to the game as a whole. I'm sure he's been town before, and he appears to be an experienced player.

Where has lowell been voting you?

I'm not sure what you mean.... he has his vote on me right now.

[icemanE]

Sir T - thanks for finally posting, this game has been slow as a snot.

notice how Johoonoo quietly tries to derail the Iceman bandwagon by voting Captain cake (lurker) on the last page?

Yes, I also noticed. Voting Cake is completely bizarre considering there are two bandwagons already formed, and there's no way people are going to jump off of those wagons and onto a Cake wagon to motivate him to post. Plus, Cake isn't a lurker, from evidence in the early game, so my suspicion would be that he is too busy IRL to make time for the game, and thus a wagon on Cake would accomplish zilch.


Sir T - while I appreciate the brevity and conciseness of your post, you, like Lowell, have thrown a vote on me without any reasoning whatsover... you actually challenge both Johoonoo and Lowell in your post but do nothing more than vote for me, so I would really appreciate if SOMEONE out there would do me a favor and lay out WHAT IN GOD'S NAME the case is against me because so far, no one's said a thing. I've taken the time to outline my thoughts so I'd appreciate the same level of respect if you're going to form a seemingly random, scummy bandwagon. Thanks.

[icemanE]

EBWOP:

so far, no one's said a thing.

No one other than TSPN, and while I can sort of see what he's thinking, I don't understand it. I suppose the tendency would be to vote with the "confirmed townie" but keep in mind that while he is most apparently town (other than GS, for us sane players), there are myriad explanations for what happened last night, and thus it's a poor choice to deem him certain town.

[icemanE]

Gosh darn, I've never seen a replacement turn my opinion of the original player around so quickly. I don't particularly remember Cake doing anything all that scummy - I do remember that he was the first person I was even remotely suspicious of bu that was very early in the game. Looks like its time for a reread, I'll probably be done in a few hours, maybe later tonight.

[icemanE]

Also Sir T - what is a b/w?

[icemanE]

I replaced Nanosauromo...

O right, my bad. Reread still in progress, thanks for the correction.

[icemanE]

Hi guys, sorry for not posting much yet.

Reading over the game, Zeek really jumps out at me as being scummy.

Well unfortunately, replacing Nano makes a pre-replacement read pretty much impossible, since there's nearly nothing to read. The above quote is all I could find worth noting.

Iceman, I thing you are scum due to the nature of your arguments with Zeek on D1. Your case on him was based on a number of non scummy goof ups by Zeek. It was too opportunistic.

I know you aren't him, but your partner's only real post was infinitely less reasoned and more "opportunistic" than my case against Zeek - I'd say the only thing opportunistic about my suspicion of Zeek is that I took the opportunity to be suspicious of him because he was incredibly suspicious?

[icemanE]

Sir T are you seriously away until the 11th.

[icemanE]

Huh, didn't realize I was on L-1. In case anybody decides to pull a GS, I believe I have already claimed vanilla townie, but there it is in case I haven't, and seriously, keep your eyes on Lowell or it will come back to haunt you.

[icemanE]

Shouldn't that be "With 11 alive, 6 will lynch"? You're at L-2 then..

I think the mod wants me dead.

[icemanE]

OK then, has everyone claimed not-doc? Are we done doubting the claim now?

[icemanE]

Because if you turn out doc, we lynch him tomorrow.

It's that simple

Yes, I understand that but how does that disprove my claim for today? It seems like people are waiting to see if someone counter claims, but I'm wondering how are people going to know who is truthful and who is lying?

Hmm... Grease, this is really shaking my confidence in the truth behind your claim...

[icemanE]

How so?

These questions you're asking make is seem like you're worried about someone CC'ing, which you shouldn't be if you're really doc.

[icemanE]

How so?

These questions you're asking make is seem like you're worried about someone CC'ing, which you shouldn't be if you're really doc.

No I worried that everyone else is putting too much emphasis on the CC. They have no way of knowing for sure till the dust settles.

Right, but you have no reason to worry unless someone CC's, which no one has yet. Everyone is claiming not-doc in order to verify you as doc but you're still worried, which makes me uneasy.

[icemanE]

I'll be gone the rest of the week. Sorry, all.

OK. Are you kidding me? LYNCH HIM! EVERYONE CLAIMED NOT DOC AND HE JUST SAYS "I'm gonna be gone, sorry." This person is absurd.

[icemanE]

Jesus...calm down a bit there Iceman. If he posts in other places on the site, we can look into it, but if he really is AWOL, there is nothing we can do about it!

Right, Faerie, but I mean, this guy doesn't even acknowledge the important developments that occur in this game, especially if they challenge his current mode of thinking. He pounced on Grease's claim but once it became clear that Lowell was wrong, which was with Cele's not doc claim, Lowell just up and left without even unvoting. It's ridiculously aggravating.

Sweatpants - absolutely not, but if I were going to disappear for a weak and planned on still being active in the game, I would AT LEAST take the time to say "Oh jeez, guess I was wrong", especially if I was as vocal as Lowell was about my suspicion of the claim. If, say, Lowell were lynched and somehow turned up town, and I was going on vacation for a week after that was revealed, I'd AT LEAST acknowledge it!

Look at this: out of everything that has happened thus far in this game, THIS is the reasoning behind Lowell's current vote:

Iceman- I think I made clear why I'm voting for you. It was your actions at and around the D1 lynch.

My actions around the D1 lynch, which I have already laid out in my extensive post where I explain why I think Lowell is scum, I explain my TOTALLY REASONABLE comment that we should lynch GS for coming in out of nowhere and dropping a hammer (which like I explained TSQ ALSO DID, WHICH LOWELL TOTALLY DISREGARDS FOR SOME REASON DESPITE THE FACT THAT TSQ'S COMMENT WAS EVEN MORE FORCEFUL AND DIRECT THAN MY OWN), which is hugely scummy. It's incredible, this person either has no concept of reality or is pure scum, and as you know I lean almost entirely towards the latter.

unvote, vote iceman.

Still don't like this, but if GS is lying I suppose we'll get him anyway.

WTF DOES THAT EVEN MEAN? I asked him upfront and he neglected to answer. I simply do not understand how everyone else can look past Lowell's completely necessary lynch.

Keep this in mind: At this stage in the game, Greasy Spot is the ONLY CONFIRMED TOWNIE. LISTEN TO HIM. LOWELL IS SCUM. PLEASE END THIS MADNESS!!!

[icemanE]

EBWOP: THE ONLY *LIVING* CONFIRMED TOWNIE

[icemanE]

(Yes I know, scum could have decided to no kill but there could also be a mafia doctors.

I had no idea mafia docs existed.

EBWODP: Also, even if GS says something, it doesn't mean he is right. He could be as easily misguided as the rest of us. He's just confirmed to be town

True, but I figure we let the confirmed townie lead. Though in this case, maybe you're right... that quick hammer doesn't exactly demonstrate the best judgment.

[icemanE]

He pounced on Grease's claim but once it became clear that Lowell was wrong, which was with Cele's not doc claim, Lowell just up and left without even unvoting.
[..]

unvote, vote iceman.

Still don't like this, but if GS is lying I suppose we'll get him anyway.

WTF DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?

I don't get it. Why is GS being confirmed a reason to unvote you?
I would've assumed you thought his vote was on GS when it wasn't, but then you also quoted the post where he voted you.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to unvote me, especially not Lowell. My mistake - somehow I forgot he was voting for me and not GS, that's how little sense it makes. Nonetheless, the message is lynch Lowell.

[icemanE]

Here, just waiting for Cele's wrapup.

[icemanE]

@ celebloki:

I see your case on Lowell and will do a reread to see if I'll join you with a vote or if I find someone else more wordy of it. However, I really dislike your listing of most protown players - partly because I don't agree with your idea of who's protown, partly because I don't like you trying to hand scum a list of suitable night kills.

MAAANNN, Johoo, it would be tough to argue that TSPN and GS aren't protown at this point.... FL is debatable (he certainly comes off as protown but hes not as safe a bet as the other two).

[icemanE]

This game has died down, hard. We should decide on a lynch and go through with it.

[icemanE]

Faerie - your case on Johoohno feels nearly identical to my case on Lowell - lurking, not posting useful content, fence sitting... what is the main difference you see between Lowell and Jo?

[icemanE]

One difference I see is your mention of wagons, and how Jo never joined the big ones - Lowell joined almost all of the big ones, how is that not scummier than not joining them?

[icemanE]

Not joining means you are trying to remain out of the spotlight. Also, notice how Johoohno did that whole flip-flop in ideas and voting reasons. Lowell has yet to show such inconsistencies

I agree that Lowell hasn't shown those inconsistencies but at the same time, Lowell has kept himself away from committing inconsistencies but sitting on the fence. Almost every time he makes a point or a vote, he says something like "but I'll also do THIS". It's the same principle, in a different application. Instead of flip-flopping on ideas and voting reasons Lowell is doing the same in his bandwagoning.

[icemanE]

That's a pretty solid case on johoohno.

I would also like to know what YOU see as the major difference between the Lowell case and the Johoono case - please give me a real answer and not just some witty quip.

[icemanE]

Also, TSPN, I really don't understand how you're still so convinced that I'm scum. I've been nothing but pro town this entire day. One thing you should know is that this is my second ever mafia game - during a reread of my games, I can definitely see a huge improvement in my play, and I don't really see how you can miss my participation, unless you're just ignoring it, which it really seems like you are. Is the only thing you see wrong with me the poorly constructed mafiaSSK case? Is that really it?

[icemanE]

Lowell is lowell, and lurking and sitting on fences is sort of what he does. So I'm not surprised that its what he's doing this game.

So you excuse it? I don't know if a meta that reads as scummy behavior can be used in defense of someone acting scummy. Would you expect Lowell to be 100% protown, contributing massive amounts of content if he were town? I would think he'd act just as scummy - that doesn't add up as a valid reason in my book.

Johoohno, on the other hand, did actually contradict himself on the lurker thing, which is certainly notable.

This, though, is a valid reason.

Why am I so confident you're scum? I'm not sure you could have done anything more scummy than that play with mafiassk. Its not a mistake that can be explained away by newness. You wanted him lynched, and then all of the sudden you didn't, and all that changed was other people stopped voting for him. I don't see much town motivation in that.

I guess I'll have to reread that section, and maybe it's my newness that prevents me from seeing it, but I honestly can't see what was so scummy about that part of the game. I made one comment about how it would be difficult for mafiaSSK's replacement to pull him out of the "scum gutter", but I was surprised at TSQ's stark contrast to MafiaSSK's actions, so initially, yes, I did stop being as suspicious of him as I was. However, mostly do to what YOU said about TSQ, I became suspicious of him again. Then I noticed Lowell.

And you may see pro-town in your play today, but I see someone throwing out accusations against every player until he found one with a little traction.

Good point. I have been pointing a lot of fingers. Personally I think it helps more than being stone-set on one person, as you are, because you get info from EVERYONE playing instead of one person sitting there defending themselves on into eternity. You saw the train wreck with Zeek. Honestly, I think that casting suspicions all over the place is not only MORE PRODUCTIVE for the town but is actually LESS scummy than being totally tunnel-visioned in. If you weren't more or less proven as a townie I'd express suspicions, but it doesn't seem like that would be at all productive or reasonable.

The bottom line is this: if you vote for someone, and present a case against them, it draws them out of hiding and forces them to respond and react, and it's primarily those reactions upon which I base my suspicions and votes. Grabbing hold of something suspect and using it as a case against someone is a totally productive, protown idea, and the more you can do it, the more information you gather. As you said, the Lowell case found traction. That's why I've stuck with it, and that's why I think he's scum.

[icemanE]

EBWOP post 676 - The quote tagged "Jo said" should say "TSPN said".

[icemanE]

OK, so after some rereading, especially of the recent analysis posts, I still see the Lowell and Johoono cases as strikingly similar. However, the town in general seems to see the Johoono case as the stronger of the two - perhaps because the case was constructed by a more trusted source, namely Faerie Lord. Considering that I feel the two cases are nearly identical in the conclusions formed from them, I hold the two on a relatively equal plane. Additionally, as the town sees Johoono's as the stronger case, I don't see the Lowell wagon rolling too much further today. In light of all this,

unvote. vote: Johoono

I feel that if Johoono's play leads to him being scum, then Lowell's case should be treated the same way tomorrow.

[icemanE]

A lot of people have jumped on the joohoo case more or less because he told them to.

Either that or he made a case I think is as good as my own.

Also, the wagon on me hasn't died out at all. The 4 who were on it still are.

The thing that scares me about that is that the most evidently town person out of all the unconfirmed players is on it, and in fact started it, along with at least two of the scum.

I think you guys are making a mistake changing your votes from Lowell and following FaireLord. While I admit Johoono is suspicious, I don't trust FaireLord Yet.

My vote is still on Lowell and I wish you guys would reconsider changing your votes back.

Grease, I didn't switch my vote because I trust Faerie Lord, necessarily. I swapped it because of the case he made.

[icemanE]

I'm reading right now, trying to decide if it's time to put ice at L-1.

Before you do that, you might want to let the prodded players, who are both sitting on my wagon, come back and have a look-see, too.

[icemanE]

The fact that his lynch sort of fizzled out without much fanfare from anyone (as everyone quickly looked in other directions) makes me more sure this is the right play.

How does that make you "more sure this is the right play"? Are you really suspicious of anything I've done or are you still mad I put up a case against you?

FL's position worries me. A lot of people have jumped on the joohoo case more or less because he told them to.

If you read my reasons and Cele's reasons for joining the wagon, you'll see neither of us joined "because Faerie told us to". I read through Faerie's case on Jo and found it similar to the one I put up against you - the big difference I see is that people are reluctant to join the wagon against you because I'm under suspicion, and I'm the one that made the case, whereas Faerie is not. Therefore I don't see your wagon going anywhere until at least tomorrow, so unless something significant happens between now and then I'll be back on yours tomorrow for the same reasons, if there aren't more.

I don't particularly think FL is scum, and I appreciate his activeness, but I do think a few scum are on the wagon, trying to look good in FL's eyes, knowing that a lot of players are content to lurk.

There are 3 (that's 3, meaning "a few" people on the Johoono wagon. So what you're saying is that everyone on the Johoono wagon is scum. Am I reading that right?

[icemanE]

I advocate lynching me so the town can move on. Clearly neither of the scum are going to be lynched today. In reflection I honestly don't see why I'm under suspicion, at all, so I feel I'm wasting my time here, distracting the town from finding the real scum. Everything I do draws fire and it's a waste of bullets.

Please win this, and somebody hammer so you can put yourselves to use.

unvote - vote: IcemanE

[icemanE]

Listen, I'm not going to argue FOR my lynch, but if that's what will get the town back on track I think it's a step in the right direction.

Other than that it's Lowell and/or Johoono.

[icemanE]

unvote - vote: Lowell

[icemanE]

I am also considering Cele and want to do an analysis, probably tomorrow.

[icemanE]

Whoops. All these replacements are throwing me off. I meant Surye, not Cele - Cele replaced Cake, I have it straight now.

[icemanE]

@ Mod:

- There's only 3 votes one me.

- Please put a deadline on this game.

[icemanE]

icemanE: I don't see the lynch being not any of you, Johoohno and Lowell.. so what exactly was the point of suggesting to lynch you? It was going to be either you or one of your two suspects anyway? I (once again) have no idea what you were doing there..

I am one of the suspects, TDC. What I was trying to say is that, if we're going to be hung up on me this whole game it makes sense to get me out of the way so everyone can focus on finding the actual scum. I would of course prefer lynching one of my suspects.

[icemanE]

So TSQ has evidently picked up his prod, then. And FL shouldn't prod over AIM. Anyways, back to the game.

We have a deadline now so we should decide on a lynch and execute it. You know where I stand. I would rather lynch Lowell today but if it comes down to it I will hammer Jo.

[icemanE]

Actually, I'm gonna revise in the interest of progress. The inherent problem I see in the decision between Lowell and Johoono is that the cases against them are so similar. I think I tend to lean toward Lowell mostly because I made the case on him - however, while I feel it's on par with the Johoono case I have to take into account the fact that I'm also on the chopping block today. As such, I'm going to transfer to Jo again, and I would recommend you do the same, Grease, so we can get a claim and get this game moving.

unvote - vote: Johoono

[icemanE]

Why aren't we lynching iceman again?

Who's we? You and your partners? You can kill me tonight if it makes you feel better.

Anyways, I'd like to hear Jo's claim before someone hammers, but either way, I feel pretty good about this one.

[icemanE]

TSQ, why the fake hammer?

[icemanE]

This recent TSQ seems nothing like the one that came into this game. First off, what happened to the avatar (jk, but really, where is it)? Also, I'm used to seeing big analytical posts instead of one liners vote-only posts.

Anyways,

mod: are you counting TSQ's vote despite the lack of an unvote?

Regardless of Jo's allegiance we will be in a good position tomorrow - especially after I get a little more 'information' tonight!

[icemanE]

The success of iceman's desperate flailings astounds me.

You'll be more astounded if I help us win the game, which is my intent.

[icemanE]

Well, when someone dies I like to look back and do a little PBPA.

Johoono:

Post 1: Says he doesn't like random voting - votes Zeek for being the last to confirm.

2: Does a sum-up of the first page, which is filled mostly with "X random voted for Y", seems a strange thing to do for someone who dislikes random voting. In this post he begins and argument with Captain Cake (Celebloki) about whether or not Jo's vote on Zeek was actually a random vote (which when you get right down to it, it was).

This look suspicious because scum have a harder time with random voting, since for them, it isn't random at all. The fact that Jo would defend his vote against Cake's assertion that it isn't random is strange.

3. Calls Cake a sloppy reader of posts.

4. Says he understands where Cake is coming from - explains that he thinks being the last to confirm is a scum-tell (really?) - says they should stop arguing because

It's easy for scum to hide by agreeing or staying silent.

5. Tells Greasy Spot and I we should start scumhunting.

6. Agrees with TSPN who told mafiaSSK (TSQ) he should not answer people's questions for them.

I'm going to post these 6 points at a time so I don't lost everything with one unfortunate click.

[icemanE]

7. Sums up the case on Zeek:

The case on ZeekLTK as I see it:
• Last to confirm (weak scum tell as said before).
• Eager to vote for CaptainCake - #55 – (has been brushed away as a joke, but it really didn’t sit well with the crowd here).
• Illogical posts (#76) which is commented in #85 by CaptainCake. This is something ZeekLTK avoids responding to, instead he moves on to something else, namely the votes on himself (#87 & #88).
• Doesn’t really explain his vote on CaptainCake which he also kept all the way up to #105.

He then removes his vote from Zeek.

8. Challenges mafiaSSK (TSQ) for keeping his vote on Nano (Sir Tornado).

9. Agrees with TSPN on his vote for mafiaSSK (TSQ), citing that he had earlier tried to get mafiaSSK to post more content, but that it didn't work, so he thought a vote was necessary to motivate him. Mentions that his FoS on Zeek is still strong.

10. Explains to Lowell that he moved his vote to mafiaSSK from Zeek for two reasons. 1 - Zeek was close to a lynch and Jo wasn't ready yet (

an interesting tactic for scum

), and 2 - he had tried to get mafia to post by FoSing him but it didn't work, so he voted for him instead. He then harps on Zeek for his diminished post frequency.

11. Huge analysis post of all players. I will run down the list and cite whether he paints them as protown, scum, or middling.

Cake - Middling (says nothing about Cake really, simply asks him to post when he returns to the game).
FL - Middling (agrees on Zeek case but accuses FL of rolefishing)
GS - Middling (wants him to post more useful content)
Ice - Scum (Accuses me of pretending to be a newbie, says my playstyle has changed)
MafiaSSK - Scum (speculates on an Ice - MafiaSSK scumteam. Asks mafia to post more content and read through a few games to get the idea of how to play)
Marmalade - Protown (agrees with most of what Marmalade says, and for some reason mentions this:

Keeps kind of a low profile (though more active than me).... Seem to be a cautious player, not wanting to stick out.

For someone painted in a protown light this does not sound like protown behaivior - it sounds like Jo is defending lurking, which he mentions very often that he hates

Nano - Scum (for lurking)
Lowell - Middling (agrees with some of his posts, disagrees with others, and oddly, gets mad at Lowell for saying Nano is town (because "that will make him post even less)).
TDC - Scum (Three points against TDC:

Tries to appear town a bit much in the beginning (89), tries to spread paranoia with your speculation on two scum groups (127). Is also kind of defensive in the retort to ZeekLTK (207).

The "tries to appear town" segment of the quote sounds off to me - it sounds like something one partner would try to slip in to assist another. This sounds more like an advice post, combined with distancing, than an actual accusation of anything

TSPN - Middling (Accuses TSPN of not scum hunting, asks why he thinks Zeek is protown)
Zeek - Scum (accuses him of OMGUS, not scumhunting, vote-hopping, and framing, all in one post)

Jo summarizes this post by saying he feels his vote on mafiaSSK is still justified.

He also keeps his FoS on Zeek. It seems bizarre that his vote is still on mafia after the much stronger points he brought up against Zeek and TDC.

12. Goes back on his lurker hate by saying to TSPN that there are more townies than scum, and therefore probably more lurking townies than lurking scum. He is now defending lurkers. Argues with FL that it doesn't matter if Zeek claims or not, because he's never witnessed a 'town-favourable-day-one-claim'.

I don't know how I didn't catch how scummy this post is earlier - gee whiz

[icemanE]

How about you use a text editor write it there and then just paste it into the reply box?
Please don't.. octo-post.

I'll do what I can to consolidate, if it helps, but I'll be back and forth on two computers all day and I don't have my flash drive handy...

[icemanE]

13. Justifies to TSPN that his accusation against TSPN (not scumhunthing) is valid - he claims that pursuing lurkers is not scumhunting, and yet he has explained that his vote is on mafiaSSK, in large part, for his lurker tendencies.

14. Wants Grease to scumhunt, tells TDC that claims are more important than he says they are, and tells me to do an unvote before a vote for it to count - note that I was voting for mafiaSSK at the time.

My suspicion of MafiaSSK (TSQ) has begun to fall, during this PBPA - with a confirmed scum we can get a decent idea of who is and isn't scum through the confirmed scum's interations - he hounds mafiaSSK hard, and even corrects me to assure my vote on him will be counted. It's either hardcore bussing or it's the same as his cases on Grease and Zeek, who were both town

15. Says he thinks his vote on MafiaSSK is still legitimate, but the wants the replacement to come in before anyone kills him.

16. Takes a jab at Zeek for unvoting when he wasn't voting for anyone. FoS's me for the role-speculation.

17. Wants mod to find replacements for inactive players.

18. Justifies his FoS AGAIN on Zeek, but says he'll leave his vote on mafiaSSK to deliver pressure for the replacement.

The connection between mafiaSSK and Johoono is very hard to read - Jo continues to bring points against Zeek but refuses to take his vote off of mafiaSSK. He is either set on getting mafiaSSK lynched for some reason or he is trying to motivate his partner to play - the former seems more likely.

19. Says he's still waiting for the replacements and GS's catch-up post.

20. Says he either wants the replacements soon or he may have to do some rethinking.

[icemanE]

21. Asks Zeek to prep questions for the replacements. Asks the replacements for their perspectives.

22. unvotes mafiaSSK (now TSQ). Says his vote was there to deliver pressure, and now that TSQ has started posting big, he thinks he doesn't need it on him anymore.

23. Says he still isn't ready to lynch Zeek, among other things, like that he disagrees with people following TSQ and that he's surprised that TSPN is defending himself against TSQ.

I'd like some opinions on this: why do you think Jo, who is scum, was so reluctant to lynch? Why does he want the lurkers to start playing - he mentions it time and time again - he continually says he doesn't want to lynch until the replacements arrive, and once they do he unvotes. This is bizarre scum-play, he is against lynching for a good portion of the game, and the whole idea of being scum is to eliminate town, and Zeek was an easy target. Why the focus on mafiaSSK/TSQ?

24. Brings a couple points against FL, like starting a "claim-train". Says he isn't fence-sitting.

25. votes for GS - says that even if he's town he's not helpful.

26. unvotes after GS claims, awaits a CC.

27. Asks FL for clarification.

28. Says he's still waiting for a CC.

29. Asks GS if he "knows something of the game setup," because GS made the assumption that he was the only doc-type role in the game.

I think that's a valid assumption, if you know you're the doc, which he did, in a mini-game.

30. Claims not-doc. Votes Captain Cake to "wake up the lurkers".

31. Says TSQ is stretching the truth a little to say that if someone CC's GS we've caught scum.

This seems an odd comment coming from scum - he knows GS isn't scum. Why would he bother to say something like that?

32. Says he's not interested in voting GS. Wants Captain Cake to come back and do an analysis.

[icemanE]

33. Asks if Surye's FoS on GS is doubting his claim.

34. Says he's waiting for Cele's catch-up.

35. Agrees w/ Cele's case on Lowell. However, he says he disagrees w/ Cele's list of protown players, which is as follows:

TSPN
FL
GS(hes doomed to be NKed imo)
and I get some Pro-town vibes off of TSQ.

Looking at this list, it's tough to argue that TSPN and GS are not town at this stage in the game. That leaves TSQ and FL. FL is obvious, because FL was the major opponent of Johoono. TSQ is a little shakier - I'm curious why you all think he was on Cele's protown list, and whether or not you think he was one of those that Jo disagreed with, and if so, why?

36. An EBWOP.

37. Says he'll catch up - unvotes.

Note: This analysis covers everything up to page 28. From this point forward Jo's primary focus is arguing with FL about why he shouldn't be lynched. It would take up a lot of space to cover all that, and since it's only three pages back I figure you can review that piece of it yourselves. However, there is one more crucial review post that I feel needs to be covered, that being post 699. I will go over it much as I did his other general analysis post, but this time, I will cite whether his opinion is consistent, or has flipped.

Cele (Middling; consistent) - Says he's stalling, following others, and that he has a hard time getting a good read on him - the options Jo provides are scum or inexperienced town.
FL (scum; raised from middling) - Cites suspicions from day 1 and the wagon FL started on him, talks about lurker policy.
GS (Town; lowered from middling) - No one CC'd the doc claim.
Iceman (Middling; Consistent) - "Still on line between newbie scum and newbie town."
TSQ (Scum; consistent) - For getting Zeek wagon rolling on D2, calls him shifty, says he tried to save myself and FL through his town list.
Surye (Middling, lowered from town) - Says he thought marmalade was protown, but that Surye hasn't said enough to judge.
Sir T - (Middling; raised from scum) - Ditto latter half of above.
Lowell - (Middling; consistent) - Agrees with the anti-not-doc claiming idea. Also agrees with my case on Lowell.
TDC - (Middling; raised from scum) - Says he's hard to read and "stays just above the lurking surface.

Note: The previous four seem like breeze-overs in comparison to his others, which are brief but more substantial.

TSPN - (Town; lowered from middling) - Proven town by GS doc prot on N1.

He then comments that he thinks FL and TSQ are a scumteam, and votes FL.

Overall points to consider:

1. Perhaps the biggest question raised by Jo's posts is: what's his connection to the lurkers? He is constantly flip-flopping on his position on them, one minute voting them into posting and defending them the next. Especially noteworthy are Surye, TDC, and Sir T.
2. Also, before my PBPA I was suspicious of mafiaSSK/TSQ, but due to the fact that Jo is confirmed scum, in looking at his interactions with TSQ, it's tough to believe Jo would hammer him that hard if he were his partner.
3. Additionally, it would be hard to believe that FL is scum judging by Day 2.

My list of potential scum at this stage in the game:

- Surye
- Cele
- Sir T
- TDC
- Lowell

That is in order from scummiest to least scummy.

Therefore,

vote: Surye

[icemanE]

iceman: Is your Surye vote for the same reason TSPN has, or is it because of he additional information you claim to have?

It's based almost entirely on the interactions I mentioned with Marmalade, especially the part where he defends Marmalade's lurking. It's totally inconsistent with everything else he says about lurking. TSPN also brings up a good point against him.

[icemanE]

What is wrong with you guys?

@TDC - I just noticed this post - It came right after TSQ's hammer vote on Johoono. Who is it directed at, what does it mean, and why did you say it?

[icemanE]

So, iceman:
Why the soft claim in twilight?

I was hoping to get NK'd to save GS. Didn't work out as planned.

[icemanE]

Something about this answer sounds just a little f-ed up.

I know what it is. Everything.

Lol?

[icemanE]

You guys don't want to lynch me, but honestly, I've been such a horrible player in this game activity wise, that I deserve it.

I don't like this.

If anything, a TSQ wagon makes more sense. "Feeling absurd" is not a real reason.

Good point.

I'd rather re-visit Lowell

That would be fine with me.

[icemanE]

Surye's wagon continues to lurch to completion!

Also, I'll be out of town until the 7th.

So it does

How about a wagon with some substance? Lowell would be a nice start. Here, I'll help.

Vote: Lowell

I agree with this, I don't see the Surye wagon going any further.

unvote - vote: Lowell

Surye is actually playing the game and contributing well now, and Lowell is bandwagoning again.

I agree with this though, and want to keep my eye on Surye as time goes on:

when someone plays the "I realize I've been bad, guys, do what you want" card, that's when I start reading scum.

We're ahead of the game now, and I still think Lowell is scum, so it's a good bet for today.

[icemanE]

My list of potential scum at this stage in the game:

- Surye
- Cele
- Sir T
- TDC
- Lowell

That is in order from scummiest to least scummy.

I agree with this, I don't see the Surye wagon going any further.

unvote - vote: Lowell

I think this needs elaboration.

You can look back to day 1 to see my reasons for being suspicious of Lowell. The fact that he's on the bottom of the list of 5 people I'm suspicious of means nothing, as I see the Lowell wagon as most productive currently.

[icemanE]

Yesterday you were very sure that Lowell is scum, you even said this:

Yesterday we didn't know for sure yet that Johoono was scum. That makes a huge difference in the way I look at things.

Do you still think Surye, Cele, Sir T and I are more likely to be scum than Lowell?

I would vote for any of the 5 candidates on that list.

[icemanE]

Why?

Answer my question.

There's no context or subject for your question. Provide one and the appropriate party may answer it.

I guess I should ask TSQ why he hammered yesterday, that's a good question.

TSQ, why did you hammer yesterday?

[icemanE]

Are we seriously going to attack me now for hammering scum?

Would it be more reasonable to attack you for coming out of nowhere and hammering him if he flipped town? I don't think so, as if you're scum you'd know what Jo was anyways. Which would allow you to clear yourself with a statement like ^.

I think the Lowell wagon is more productive because it has some momentum currently. I don't see a wagon on anyone else rolling too far, and since I think the Lowell wagon is a good one I don't see a reason to try to force another.

[icemanE]

unvote, vote TDC for role-fishing.

Here we have OMGUS, and TDC asked for a claim straight up, there was no role fishing.

[icemanE]

1) Most likely.

2) I do too.

3) Yes.

[icemanE]

SirT is feeling nice right now.

Why?

[icemanE]

Who's going to start the claim? I believe I already claimed back when I was on L-1.

[icemanE]

I doubt that a game with a godfather does not have a cop

That would make godfather obsolete

Good point. It's too bad about the V/LAs - it makes it awfully easy to claim cop. It appears there is no CC to the claim though - and with a godfather and no CC, it's tough not to believe it.

[icemanE]

Can Cele and Sir T be prodded?

Oh right. Forgot that not everyone has claimed yet. There may still be a CC

[icemanE]

Should sir T be replaced?

[icemanE]

/bump.

Has this game fizzled out completely?

[icemanE]

vote: Sir T

Screw it. Let's finish this game.

[icemanE]

And I think the best lynch at this point is TDC.

Not that I disagree, but do you have any reasons for wanting to vote TDC?

[icemanE]

vote: TDC

[icemanE]

yipee!