Mini 584: Sudo_Nym Presents- Over!

[TDC]

Vote: TheSweatpantsNinja

for having a name that will haunt me in my dreams.

[TDC]

All I'm saying is that he's trying to justify something that doesn't need it, it just seems odd to me is all.

Why does a non-random vote not need a justification?

[TDC]

How does it not make sense? You said it's scummy of me to want him lynched. But how is it scummy if he turns out to be a mafia member?

It's NOT scummy if he DOES turn out to be a mafia member, but we don't KNOW if he IS. Since we don't know he is scum or have any real reason to suspect he is scum, we shouldn't kill him just to find out.

I disagree. It might not happen too often, but scum can and probably will lynch each other if they think it makes the lynching scum look very town.
You should not conclude that someone is town, just because he is "responsible" for a scum lynch (especially if he used poor reasoning).
It's obviously somewhat less scummy than being responsible for a town lynch, but still "pushing" for a lynch implies that you want that person dead, and that means you're either scum or have very good reasons to think (or even know) the lynchee is scum - or even both.

Anyway, I have some questions:


Natirasha: I don't exactly get your

unvote

because Greasy_Spot fails at being a jester.

I assume you're joking there - or can Minis actually have roles like Jesters?

Johoohno: You were the first to vote for ZeekLTK and did so for him confirming the latest. You've already said you don't think that's "the strongest case". How does it compare to the Cake-ZeekLTK conversation in your eyes?

Cake: Before you switched your attention from Johoohno to ZeekLTK, you explained your FoS:

[..]Now lets look at the reality of the situation. In all honestly your vote is just as random as anyone's and your reasoning for choosing your random vote is that ZeekLTK is the last to confirm. As a random vote that's just fine and everything. However the part that caught me off gaurd is that you were implying your vote was not random and had some form of reason to your choice. [..]

Johoohno replied with

I don't see my vote as random, I see ZeekLTK being last to confirm as a possible scum-tell. I know it's not the strongest case but [..]

You have not replied to that, so: Why not? I would've thought it would make your "case" stronger and not lighter, since now it's a serious vote with what you characterized as random reasoning and not a random one?
This is where I think you backed down, not sure why everyone focuses on the dialogue icemanE pointed out.

ZeekLTK: Your reasoning only makes sense if you are pretty certain of Cake's scumness. You have however not given even one argument, why that is and then go on and propose we lynch him. Care to elaborate?

unvote

,

vote ZeekLTK

Mod: Could we have a vote count, please?

[TDC]

lol TDC. Care to explain how me wanting to lynch Cake is scummy? I can see how you might disagree with it. But to add vote #4 to a player who has done nothing scummy looks very badly for you.

Again: You want to lynch him without even presenting a reason why. How is that not scummy?
Is it less scummy if he is scum? Yes. Do I know whether he is scum? No.

Also there's the fact that you aren't even paying attention to the thread; there was just a vote count 3 posts above yours...

It wasn't there when I typed up the post.

Look at the situation: No one jumped on his bandwagon but everyone is jumping on mine. Why? Maybe because he's scum and I'm not? Hmmmm....

Why would him being scum explain that "no one jumped on his bandwagon"? Do you think everyone but you here is scum? I don't get it.

[TDC]

By attacking him, you're punishing him for pressuring cake, which is a pro-town thing to do.

We must have very different opinions about the concept of "pressure" in this game.
Are you saying that if I voted you right now and said "Can we get TSPN lynched, now?" that would put pressure on you? That that would be pro-town behaviour from me?

Seriously?

[TDC]

By attacking him, you're punishing him for pressuring cake, which is a pro-town thing to do.

We must have very different opinions about the concept of "pressure" in this game.
Are you saying that if I voted you right now and said "Can we get TSPN lynched, now?" that would put pressure on you? That that would be pro-town behaviour from me?

Seriously?

Quoted for not being answered yet.

[TDC]

Basically wondering why I'm "scummy", pointing out that the lynch was never rushed (one comment was blown out of proportion), and then pointing out that Cake COULD be scum and if he was, lynching him would be a good thing (does anyone dispute this?).

Sure, a scum lynch is always good. The point is that you didn't bring on any evidence at all to suggest that he is indeed scum. This is what made people think you want to lynch to find out whether he is scum.
Using your rationale, nobody is ever going to be scummy for voting somebody, unless that somebody is confirmed town.

Besides: Is it possible that there are two scum groups in this game? In that case your reasoning makes even less sense: If Cake was lynched and turned up scum, then you might just be in the other scum group.


Why did it take you so long to claim your "can we lynch him now?"-comment was a joke?

I support a ZeekLTK claim. It'll at least get the life back into this thread. And he's still in lynch distance

I don't think we need a claim from Zeek yet. He's not in danger of being lynched right now, is he? (And obviously anybody quicklynching him without letting him claim would be under much fire tomorrow.)
Why do you want him to claim?

[TDC]

EBWOP: Zeek is on L-3 not L-2, he had 4 votes at the last vote count +Nanosauromo -Johoohno.

[TDC]

Also, I want him to claim because 1)It would rejuvinate the thread, though that can be forgotten now since posts have started again 2)Most of the people here think he is scum, or at least very scummy 3)It's the only way we can get something new out of him

1) Ironically, that's what he says about his "lynch cake"-comment as well.
2) Do they? He has 5 votes but quite frankly, I have no idea who the other two people could be to form a lynch, who do you have in mind?
3) Just that "something new" is going to be his role, and that's not really what we want to know before it's really almost too late (see 2)).

I still don't see the purpose and join TSPN in calling it fishing.

Are you saying that if I voted you right now and said "Can we get TSPN lynched, now?" that would put pressure on you? That that would be pro-town behaviour from me?

Seriously?

Context is everything. On Page 2 of Day 1, I'd have no problem with that. On Page 27 of Day 4, I'd want a little more explanation.

Fair enough, although I have no idea why you'd place Page 5 of this thread nearer to "Page 27 of Day 4" than "Page 2 of Day 1".

[TDC]

Ah, okay.. misunderstood you then.

[TDC]

Johoohno could be one, who relegated his vote to a fos. And tell me, how many of the active people (read: active) don't find Zeek scummy? Just TSPN. Even Marmalade has expressed suspicion.

I see your point, but neither expressed any will to lynch him, did they? In fact Marmalade has his vote sitting on Greasy Spot.
You usually call for a role claim if someone is on L-1 and someone else has expressed his will to hammer, don't you?

Again, please tell me what the next move should be.

I'd say finding out what the others think about the issue.
Here for example is a list of everyone who hasn't said anything about Zeek at all:
Lowell (this is obvious)
MafiaSSK (in fact he hasn't said much about anything)
Rage (even less content from him)

These have posted about Zeek in the beginning but kind of disappeared:
CaptainCake (who I btw still want to reply to my question a few pages back)
Greasy Spot

[TDC]

EBWOP:
That's what I get for reading two threads at once, strike Rage off that list, he's in the other game ..

[TDC]

I see your point, but neither expressed any will to lynch him, did they? In fact Marmalade has his vote sitting on Greasy Spot.
You usually call for a role claim if someone is on L-1 and someone else has expressed his will to hammer, don't you?

I disagree. -1 is a little too late for claiming, since someone could hammer before role discussion could be made. And sometimes, scum will want to go 1 for 1 (I'd think about doing it if he claimed vig)
So yes, maybe we can wait for the rest to come, but -2 is, IMO, the best time to claim.

Uhm, but if he claimed vig, then.. he already claimed.
How is scum going to know he's a vig if he hasn't claimed?

[TDC]

EBWOP: It seems I'm a bit slow today, and I now get your point, it is not that waiting for him to claim until L-1 is dangerous, but that his claim might be dangerous for him IF he is at L-1 at the time he claims, right?

[TDC]

I agree with pursuing MafiaSSK for lurking (although I'm not quite ready to drop my Zeek-vote yet).

On a similar note, while MafiaSSK has added nothing substantial in the last week, Greasy Spot has not posted at all since April 10th, so

Mod: Could you prod Greasy Spot, please?

[TDC]

It's cute that you use the same logic that I voted you for to accuse me as well.

What I'm saying is I don't like when Z says "don't vote for X" then you jump in and say "EUREKA!! Z and X are scumbuddies!" That's not super-sophisticated analysis to me as much as it is opportunistically trying to look like you're scumhunting.

hmm...opportunistic you say...Dude, the whole game is opportunistic. We pick apart what little tidbits of information and reactions we can until people break. So yes, I am opportunistic as well as everyone else that is playing this game. Bad Logic Lowell.

vote: Lowell

I don't understand that post, unless you have a different definition of opportunism. This is what a dictionary says:
"One who takes advantage of any opportunity to achieve an end,

often with no regard for principles or consequences.

" (underlined for emphasis).. so no, mafia is not to be played opportunistic.. at least not if you're town.

Clearly, we should continue to bandwagon mafiassk until he makes a substantive post.

It's been quite some days, so I guess we could also ask the mod to

prod MafiaSSK?

note: I'll be gone from Friday till Sunday, and also next week from Saturday till Monday. (Will be able to post in between)

[TDC]

Fairly huge post by you, there.

TDC suggests that even if Cake was scum, I could be "bussing him" (lol seriously? he's not even half way to a lynch at this point).

iceman had suggested that you would be cleared if Cake turned up scum and I pointed out that while that would certainly lower suspicion, one should always think about all possibilities.

Basically the question is phrased in a way that if TSPN answers "no" (which is really the logical answer) then TDC will say, "so then you should be suspicious of Zeek and vote for him".

Well, let's look at his post and my question:

By attacking him, you're punishing him for pressuring cake, which is a pro-town thing to do. Pressuring people on day 1 = good.

Are you saying that if I voted you right now and said "Can we get TSPN lynched, now?" that would put pressure on you? That that would be pro-town behaviour from me?

I have no idea how he could have answered "no" without contradicting his own post, so how do you think could that have lead to me telling him to vote for you?

Okay, now let's step back for a second here. Post #89, when TDC enters the game, he has lots of questions for several players (Johoonho, Cake, etc.) None of these questions were ever answered, and they were all fairly relevant to the game. So why did TDC not press these issues?

This was because unlike the others who I asked questions, TSPN had already posted in the thread since I asked (so I assumed he had ignored/overread my question).
Natirasha was soon replaced, Johoonho answered in his next post and Cake has not really been part of the game since then.

I can't really judge whether you misrepresented FaerieLord as much as he claims without reading the mentioned posts again, will do that tomorrow.

[TDC]

Did you really need to quote that wall of text? :/

[TDC]

Perhaps I’m just inexperienced, but I’ve never witnessed a town-favourable-day-one-claim. I believe that the scum would get more useful information from a claim, during D1, than the town.

What? Clearly "scum knows who's <power role>" is still better than "<power role> is lynched", isn't it?

Cake: I know this is cold coffee, but now that you're back, I'd like to remind you of my question in post #89.

Zeek: I replied to some of your takes on my posts.. any comments?

[TDC]

TDC you "addressed" my posts but didn't really give me anything to address back...

I disagreed with you (on facts!), so I'd expect you to either say something like "Fair enough"/"Sorry, I was wrong" or "No, you're wrong, because.."

You did say:

I can't really judge whether you misrepresented FaerieLord as much as he claims without reading the mentioned posts again, will do that tomorrow.

Did you ever do this?

I tried, but I can't say I agree with either of you. Your huge post was _very_ subjective, yet prestented somewhat objective, and FaerieLord apparently took everything you said to be "fact", while most of it appears to be personal opinion to me.. (this is why I did not reply to your "here TDC wants to get me lynched"-style comments, they are absolutely empty of facts).

[TDC]

Second part, you said:

By attacking him, you're punishing him for pressuring cake, which is a pro-town thing to do.

We must have very different opinions about the concept of "pressure" in this game.
Are you saying that if I voted you right now and said "Can we get TSPN lynched, now?" that would put pressure on you? That that would be pro-town behaviour from me?

Seriously?

You are clearly trying to get him to "agree" with you that what I did was "not pro-town"... and thus I can only assume that if you managed to do that you would call on him to vote for me.

"Not pro-town" and "scummy" are not equivalent.
Him voting for you after explicitly claiming your behaviour was pro-town is a pretty ridiculous thought.

Third part, "okay" I initially missed Johoohno's answer but you admitted that 2 of the 3 people never did answer, so I was still (mostly) correct in pointing that out.

I replied to this question of yours: "So why did TDC not press these issues?" and not to "Oh look, these guys haven't answered his questions".
By saying I "admitted" you imply that it's somehow my fault, so please specify what you think I've done wrong, because I have no idea.

[TDC]

I understand where you are going with the null-tell thing, although I quite honestly have no idea how a Zeek-scum-tell would look like then, I guess he'd need to do something incredibly stupid. I don't really like such double standards.

I can't say I have much of an idea of whether he's town or scum at this point, but if his "town"-behaviour is anything to go by we'll probably never find out..

Anyway, since my discussion with him is going nowhere and the town consensus seems to be we should just let him be, I might as well

unvote Zeek

.

Cake: Fair enough, I thought you had just missed the question due to your absence.

As for MafiaSSK, I've previously said I appreciate his bandwagon, and I'd like to add this:

It seemed to me, by the way they were acting that TSPN and Zeek were defending each other, sort of like scum would do.

I have no idea where you think Zeek defended TSPN, but I guess the reverse is true.
However, one of your few previous posts was this:

Unvote, vote icemanE

for saying "we're not in the random voting stage anymore but I can't be bothered to scumhunt. [/b]

Don't vote him. He could just be newbie town. My playstyle was exactly like that in my last game.

Now, TSPN's defense of Zeek was based on "I played with him in another game, he was town and played like here". Your defense of iceman is based on "I've played like this as town".
Your defense is less well-founded than his, yet his suggests a link between them in your book.. What should we think about you then?

I do have a question for everyone else regarding MafiaSSK though: Nanosauromo said (in his random vote) that MafiaSSK lurked a lot in their last game.. doesn't that make his lurking a null-tell, because he "always does it"?
In Mini 539 he had 23 posts, was mason and lived until Night 4, that's like five posts per game day..

Again: I'm not saying we should not attack him for his lurking - I for one don't share the null-tell-theory.

Greasy Spot: Your last post contained a correction of the Mod's votecount.. anything else to add?

Could we get a prod/replacement for Nanosauromo?

Also a quick reminder that I'll be gone over the weekend.

[TDC]

Anyway, no, we shouldn't lynch mafiassk. We should have him replaced. He hasn't done much that's scummy except be completely useless.

I agree. Makes you wonder why iceman claims "that it's difficult to imagine anyone pulling him out of the scum gutter he's fallen into", though.

[TDC]

Wait... So because he's been a poor player so far he's scum, but substituting in a better player won't possibly be able to change your mind on him? Honestly that sounds like one of the worst reasons I've heard to suggest a lynch before a replacement is found.

unvote vote: icemanE

That post struck me the wrong way.

Which way?

[TDC]

I find it hard to judge someone on _two_ posts and would prefer to wait for his replacement to say anything.

[TDC]

The case on iceman is him trying to lynch a lurker. You have found him scummy for it.

You are trying to lynch a lurker.

I'm sure he's done that as town before as well...

[TDC]

[..] and basically get a free pass out of Nano's scummy action.

And we don't want people to get a free pass, do we?

[TDC]

Without the threat of a lynch, there's literally no incentive for a player to do ANYTHING once they have reached 5-6 votes, and thus it loses all purpose.

I agree, but the threat to lynch can only come from players who are not already voting for the lynchee, and that seemed to me what was lacking. So FaerieLord's request of a claim was premature in my eyes.
I always thought the purpose of bandwagoning was finding out who's scum and who isn't, and not simply extracting a claim. I see that more as a last resort.

I agree that this wagon horribly failed at everything though.

Up to page 13 and the Zeek bandwagon has completely disintegrated for no logical reason that I can see...

Can only speak for me, but somehow the town seemed to have come to the consensus that "Zeek is scummy when he's town, so his scumminess here is a null tell", so that Zeek seemed pretty unlynchable, regardless of what he does.

If you can change the town consensus, kudos to you, I'd happily put my vote back on him if I see it's not a waste of time anymore.

Would like to hear from SirTornado.

[TDC]

WTF?

[TDC]

Vote: Greasy Spot

There you go, L-1.

I hope people can actually wait for a claim this time..

[TDC]

Hm, well.
I guess with that no night kill, we can be pretty sure there is a Doc, so I'd see GS pretty much as confirmed town if nobody counterclaims.

unvote

Still, even if he is the Doc

I've been real busy in RL and that's why I haven't been posting. I saw the vote count and figured if I hammered that would surely get me voted the next day.

That's just a tiny bit off committing suicide with a power role (at least you didn't self hammer at L-1).
Why not lurk until a replacement is found?

[TDC]

There could still come one though.

[TDC]

Can I point out that there are still three players who have not posted at all today?

I appreciate the "iceman is the new Zeek"-case, but I'd rather find out whether GS is really not counter-claimed first.

Mod: Have you prodded CaptainCake (last post: May 7th), Marmalade (May 13th) and SirTornado (no post at all)?

[TDC]

I appreciate the "iceman is the new Zeek"-case, but I'd rather find out whether GS is really not counter-claimed first.

Zeek was town you ass hat.

So from now on, everyone who plays like Zeek is proven town? WTF?

[TDC]

So from now on, everyone who plays like Zeek is proven town? WTF?

of course not, but when you say you play just like person A and then person A turns town then your argument against person B doesn't hold water. And when you make this argument after you know person A is town then that is just plain stupid.

Okay, let's say you were a) quick lynched earlier on today and b) town.
By your logic, we would not be able to go after whoever quicklynched you, because you did the same and came up town.
That doesn't make sense.

[TDC]

Any more players that want to claim they know something, but not what it is?

[TDC]

While reading D1, I also had a feeling that I need to keep a close eye on TDC. His playstyle in this game is exactly like mine is when I am scum.

And what is that playstyle?

[TDC]

Shouldn't that be "With 11 alive, 6 will lynch"? You're at L-2 then..

Still waiting for Celebloki and Surye to say whether either of them is the doc.

[TDC]

Well technically the only way you will know is if he survives the NK and I don't.

It has been said multiple times: You would not actually be alive going into the night in the first place.

[TDC]

He pounced on Grease's claim but once it became clear that Lowell was wrong, which was with Cele's not doc claim, Lowell just up and left without even unvoting.
[..]

unvote, vote iceman.

Still don't like this, but if GS is lying I suppose we'll get him anyway.

WTF DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?

I don't get it. Why is GS being confirmed a reason to unvote you?
I would've assumed you thought his vote was on GS when it wasn't, but then you also quoted the post where he voted you.

[TDC]

The thing is, even though Lowell is pretty scummy as well (I'm glad that you are finally putting all your thoughts into posts), a Johoohno lynch will provide us with more information in my eyes than a Lowell lynch, especially in the interchange Johoohno had with CaptianCake in the beginning.

Do you mean the random voting thing?
What would Johoohno's alignment tell us about CaptainCake?

[TDC]

icemanE: I don't see the lynch being not any of you, Johoohno and Lowell.. so what exactly was the point of suggesting to lynch you? It was going to be either you or one of your two suspects anyway? I (once again) have no idea what you were doing there..

Lowell: Do you still doubt GS's Doc claim?

And then when the heat turns up on Johoohno he actually starts playing but it turns into what looks like a big OMGUS case against FL. My vote is set on him and I think we need more pressure his way.

I agree with this.

Vote: Johoohno.

[TDC]

What is wrong with you guys?

[TDC]

*sigh*

[TDC]

Regardless of Jo's allegiance we will be in a good position tomorrow - especially after I get a little more 'information' tonight!

So.. ?

[TDC]

How about you use a text editor write it there and then just paste it into the reply box?
Please don't.. octo-post.

[TDC]

iceman: Is your Surye vote for the same reason TSPN has, or is it because of he additional information you claim to have?

[TDC]

TSQ had just ended the day with a quick hammer (or at least, I thought he had until you pointed out that the unvote was missing).
That it came from him, who had all day (and in the very post before the hammer) looked like set on lynching you and was one of the most vocal critics of GS's hammer the day before, was rather absurd.

[TDC]

So, iceman:
Why the soft claim in twilight?

[TDC]

Meh, this game is dying.

Can we get some prods on SirT and Cele?

Surye: What do you think about iceman, would you've put him on L-1 had the wagon not shifted to Johoohno? Would you like to lynch him today?

[TDC]

My list of potential scum at this stage in the game:

- Surye
- Cele
- Sir T
- TDC
- Lowell

That is in order from scummiest to least scummy.

I agree with this, I don't see the Surye wagon going any further.

unvote - vote: Lowell

I think this needs elaboration.

[TDC]

My list of potential scum at this stage in the game:

- Surye
- Cele
- Sir T
- TDC
- Lowell

That is in order from scummiest to least scummy.

I agree with this, I don't see the Surye wagon going any further.

unvote - vote: Lowell

I think this needs elaboration.

You can look back to day 1 to see my reasons for being suspicious of Lowell. The fact that he's on the bottom of the list of 5 people I'm suspicious of means nothing, as I see the Lowell wagon as most productive currently.

I know why you are suspicious of Lowell, that's not at all the point.
Yesterday you were very sure that Lowell is scum, you even said this:

I feel that if Johoono's play leads to him being scum, then Lowell's case should be treated the same way tomorrow.

But instead of starting the day with a vote on Lowell you do a PBPA of Johoohno and come to the conclusion that no less than four people are actually more scummy than him.
And know you vote for him anyway.

Do you still think Surye, Cele, Sir T and I are more likely to be scum than Lowell?

[TDC]

EBWOP: know -> now, obviously.

[TDC]

A claim might be helpful.

[TDC]

I think we've had two nights.

[TDC]

Are you so sure of iceman's scumness that you didn't bother to investigate him?

[TDC]

Yay, simulpost.

[TDC]

I approve of a mass claim.

[TDC]

I'm vanilla.

[TDC]

Pretty simple. I thought you bread crumbed cop at least 3 times.

Where?

Also Surye: Why FaerieLord?

[TDC]

I doubt we have a vig, so nightkill immunity would be pretty useless..

Can Cele and Sir T be prodded?

[TDC]

*pokes Mod with a stick*

[TDC]

Have Cele/Sir T picked up their prods?

[TDC]

You're probably right, he has actually made more than 100 posts forum-wide since he promised he was catching up..

Vote: Sir T

.

Would like to hear from Cele though (remember that mass claim we started two freaking weeks ago?) , before anyone hammers.

[TDC]

Would like to see elaboration on why I should be the lynch.

[TDC]

I'm back and I see nothing has changed o_O

vote: Cele

[TDC]

Has he picked up his prod?

[TDC]

If by "end this game" you mean "get nightkilled and watch the iceman, TSQ, Cele end game", I guess you're right.

[TDC]

Finally.

So, was I obvscum, or was everybody else obvtown?
I suppose Cele was obv-solurkythathecouldnthavesentanightchoice...

[TDC]

FaerieLord was the MVP this game.