Mini 584: Sudo_Nym Presents- Over!

[Marmalade]

Vote: CaptainCake

I want to have the only username to do with food, dammit!

[Marmalade]

I want to have the only username to do with food, dammit!

This is clearly a scumtell, everyone loves cake. If you don't like cake you must be scum.

Er... good point?

But then if it's such a clear scumtell, why aren't you voting for me, hm? Oooh yeah!

Food Score:

Marmalade: 1
CaptainCake: 0

[Marmalade]

unvote
vote: Johoohno

cause his name is too much Johnny Fairplay from Survivor and I didn't like Johnny Fairplay much cause he wasn't fair.

Is this a random vote?

Also, on the CaptainCake issue, I understand his point, I just don't understand why he backed down so suddenly from it.

[Marmalade]

I would think so.

Hm, okay, just seems odd to do after suspicion was already drawn to CaptainCake (gradually ending the random voting stage).

[Marmalade]

How have I backed down? Granted I said I may have read too far into it but I still stand by my point.

Oh really?

Cake:

Really all you're doing is choosing a random element and voting the player that it matches up with. I don't see the small amount of time later Zeek confirmed to be intentional. So really the last part of that post is poor poor justification for a random vote.

Ninja:

Is there really such a thing as a poor reason for a random vote?

Cake:

Nope, not really.

Me: ...?

Are we going to lynch ScumCake or what?

No. To be honest, I find the cake wagon uninteresting (although I do find those who push it interesting.)

Moving swiftly on...

unvote, vote: GreasySpot

I don't like how he continues to random vote after we are quite clearly out of the random voting stage.

[Marmalade]

Now, as for why I'm voting Zeek: He's rushed a lynch on Cake for no solid reason, which gives off scum vibes.

First, I never "rushed a lynch"; he's only got 3 votes.

Second, trying to lynch Cake would only be scummy if he were town. We don't know that he's town. If he is scum, then how am I scummy for pushing for the lynch of scum?

If you are trying to say you know he's town then you must be mafia, because only the mafia know who the townies are at this point.

My stance at the beginning of the game is to give everyone an equal opportunity by assuming they are town, unless they do an early job proving themselves otherwise, which Cake has not.

I'm pretty sure this is a playstyle difference, hence is not a good reason for a vote -- policy votes, I find, are

highly

problematic and troublesome.

[Marmalade]

Hm -- pretty sure everyone's getting a bit confused here (not in the least myself).

What I meant it that it is difficult to accuse someone entirely because their stance is to treat everyone as town initially, when you treat everyone as scum, or vice versa. I thought you were using that as an attack against Cake, which I didn't think made for adequate reasoning. Although, it appears I was just being a bit dim, and in fact you are voting for Zeek, and not Cake (which I had thought when writing the post).

Now, I even more unsure about what you meant by this, however:

My stance at the beginning of the game is to give everyone an equal opportunity by assuming they are town, unless they do an early job proving themselves otherwise, which Cake has not.

Can you clarify? I took this to be an attack on Cake, but your response seems to indicate that it wasn't.

[Marmalade]

I didn't actually think what Zeek did was particularly bad, to be honest. I mean, it was

bad

, but it wasn't

that

bad.

What I do think

is

scummy though is that Zeek seems to attack all those who attack him.

Let's look:
1. Pretty weak attacks on Iceman for FoSing early game (you do realise this could be playstyle related...)
2.

Very

weak attacks on quite a solid post by FaerieLord (I noticed that Ninja joined in -- scumbuddies?)
3. Attacks on Nanosauromo (although these are slightly more justified, they strike me as off).
4. An example of Zeek's attitude: "If you are a townie (anyone reading this), please go back and look at this bandwagon that's formed on me. I guarantee you'll find scum on it."

So Zeek, why do you feel the need to attack effectively

everyone

who has wagonned you? It feels really contrived and off to me.

[Marmalade]

I'd like to know why Zeek, in his seeming re-read of the thread, ignored my post which accused him of merely attacking all those who attacked him. Since this is a significant reason why I suspect him, I'm concerned that he'd just ignore this.

[Marmalade]

I'd like to know why Zeek, in his seeming re-read of the thread, ignored my post which accused him of merely attacking all those who attacked him. Since this is a significant reason why I suspect him, I'm concerned that he'd just ignore this.

That's what I always do when I'm town, ask TSPN.

1. Why didn't you think to address it? It sounds like you were trying to avoid the points you couldn't defend.
2. Saying "I always do this as town" is pretty inconclusive meta. For this to be balanced,

we need to know if you do the same as scum, or differently.

[Marmalade]

Surely asking for a claim should happen at L-1, not -2, FaerieLord? I do agree that this is slightly scummy, although I'm pretty sure this could be a policy decision. However, I'm pretty happy with his Zeek hate, which was pretty well argued, I'd say.

I also like Ninja's pressure of FaerieLord, since he clearly is making an effort to scum-hunt. Not sure that I like Ninja though. Something about his interactions with Zeek bug me. And also, the MafiaSSK thing is a bit weird -- feels like a contrived attempt to saved Zeek's butt.

I like Lowell's entrance, although I am a bit curious why he doesn't mention anything about Zeek in his secondary analysis of players post.

So basically you're admitting that you are scum and if I'm a vig you'd quicklynch me (to go "1 for 1")?

It's things like this that make me suspect you. Just blatant attacks with no real evidence behind them, just to save your own butt. I reiterate that I find Zeek most scummy not because of the initial reasons, but because of his OMGUS

responses

to attacks made against him.

I totally don't like GreasySpot's Lowell vote, especially since his response to Lowell seems to be "sure, I'm opportunistic, but so is everyone!" Er... no. That said, I agree that he's really not the scummiest person here at the moment, so voting for him seems relatively pointless.

unvote

.

Not sure who is most suspicious, since I don't really want to vote Zeek yet, but I think I might re-read Johoono, since some of his posts I remember being slightly odd.

[Marmalade]

Zeek:

I have asked you to respond to my suspicion that you are just attacking people who attack you. All you have said is that "I do this when town," which is not at all conclusive.

I invite you to respond to my previous post on the issue:

I'd like to know why Zeek, in his seeming re-read of the thread, ignored my post which accused him of merely attacking all those who attacked him. Since this is a significant reason why I suspect him, I'm concerned that he'd just ignore this.

That's what I always do when I'm town, ask TSPN.

1. Why didn't you think to address it? It sounds like you were trying to avoid the points you couldn't defend.
2. Saying "I always do this as town" is pretty inconclusive meta. For this to be balanced,

we need to know if you do the same as scum, or differently.

[Marmalade]

@Zeek:

(Deja vu): The problem is, zeek, is that

we don't know you're town.

And how easy is it for scum to make that argument? I don't have a problem with OMGUS votes (like, I hate it when I make a case on someone who's voted for me and they try to dismiss it with OMGUS), but when your lead argument is "they voted for me", to us, that's useless information, and its a bad argument. And people who make bad arguments tend to be scum. So, OMGUS is scummy. And definitely unconvincing.

Yeah, basically this. I couldn't really put it better myself.

Also, as scum your actions make sense, as you did it from the start, so it basically would allow your scumbuddies to slip by off your wagon.

That said, I'm kinda nervous that this is Zeek's playstyle. Other than what I have pointed out, I reiterate that the case against him is

not

all that convincing. I am going to read his long post and try and discern anything I can, but I'm pretty sure there are better targets out there.

Zeek, do you have any completed games?

[Marmalade]

Pretty sure that Zeek is town at this point. I don't think the case against him is particularly substantial, and, to be honest, I'm getting a bit bored of it.

I like, however, the MafiaSSK hate, however.

FoS: Mafia

. There is a difference between his type of lurking and that of Nanasauromo, who genuinely seems to have gone. Contibution please?

I will be doing a re-read, but maybe not until next week sometime.

[Marmalade]

Minor FoS: All those metagaming Zeek for his behaviour in #533 only.

This includes FaerieLord, obviously.

You understand that, even though Zeek may have acted like he did in that game here, and he was town there, that's actually inconclusive? Therefore, you are using an

inconclusive

meta to remove suspicion from Zeek? This feels weird.

The reason, in case people didn't know, that it is inconclusive, is that FaerieLord and others don't seem to have found any games where Zeek was scum to compare. The fact is,

this could be Zeek's playstyle not only as town but as scum as well.

Thus, it could be a null tell. I understand that that doesn't make him scummy, but it is odd to consider someone

innocent

because of those actions. (In comparison to myself, for instance, since I consider Zeek to be more innocent than others because the case against him is pretty crap.)

[Marmalade]

I understand (and am pleased) with the response of FaerieLord.

Why do you consider Zeek innocent just because there is a bad case against him? That's not a valid reason for believing someone is innocent - just because the reason people suspect him currently is not good does not mean in any way that there are no other reasons to suspect him. Speaking for myself, I no longer think he is overly suspicious, but I think it's a bad idea to dismiss the notion altogether simply because no one has brought the right issues to the forefront. The meta that Faerie and co. have mentioned is a stronger reason, in my opinion, to tone down suspicions.

Yeah, I understand why you may have got that from my post (it was kinda unclear), but what I meant was that there isn't a particularly good case against him, which is why I don't think he is that scummy at the moment.

I need to re-read, since I think there are better targets than Zeek at this point.

[Marmalade]

Apologies; see V/LA.