Hearthstone- Heroes of Warcraft (Enter Your ID!)

[Sudo_Nym]

Is this cheaper than Magic? More fun than Magic? As a new player, is it worth getting into, and what's the best way to go about it?

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So, I started downloading, I have an old account from the two weeks I spent playing WoW; somebody changed my password and my name for some reason. I'm doubting their intentions were honorable in this.

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I'm apparantly Sudonym#2313, if that means anything to anybody. I certainly didn't add 2313 on there.

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Also, what's the best deck? I've been having a lot of fun with Paladin, at least with the basic cards. Summoning hordes of little creatures and abusing buffs to trade up, trying to keep board control. Been trying to grind for the card unlocks; got Truesilver Champion and Consecration, don't know how much longer before Blessing of Kings.

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From what I understand, ranked actually does a fairly decent job of matching, so I should be okay playing there after unlocking the stuff?

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Got level 10 with Paladin for Blessing of Kings, decided to jump in the ranked play, see what's up. I'm really enjoying it, so far. Simple to play, yet with a surprising depth of strategy, and it doesn't take forever to play. Could wind up spending a lot of money on it, I fear, but I'll see how far I can get with the basic cards...

[Sudo_Nym]

Played some more ranked; I get really nervous when I see opponents playing with gold cards. That said, I seem to be doing alright playing Paladin. Trying to get some of the Naxx adventures for cards is getting tempting, but I'm not sure how easy actually getting the cards involved is.

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I'm looking through the card pool and Druid is looking really nice, too.

[Sudo_Nym]

So I was on a nice win streak there for a while. I don't mind losing, but how am I supposed to beat these Mage Mech decks? Every single one of them so far has been "I summon a million guys every turn, kill your whole board without taking any damage, and then kill you quickly before you can do anything."

[Sudo_Nym]

Holy shit, Mage Power + Grim Patron = Infinite Dudes?

[Sudo_Nym]

Started an Arena run last night, though I only did two games before I stopped; I'm told that I can come back to it later, and I was falling asleep. Besides, it was the 'free' one anyway, since Blizzard operates like a drug dealer.

Won the first game because I managed to pick up 3 Flamestrikes. Drew them all; cleared the board once, and the opponent tried to refill the board, straight into the second Flamestrike. Emptied his hand next turn to try and keep the board, only for me to Flamestrike a third time. I have to imagine that was frustrating for him.

Played against a Hunter in the next game, who kept using Secrets in the early game to keep killing my guys (I supposed I should look up what secrets exist?), only for me to take over the game anyway by dropping a Grim Patron and pinging it with the mage power every turn to multiply them.

[Sudo_Nym]

Do I get to keep the cards from my Arena run? In MTG, I would.

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HOW THE BLOODY FUCKING HELL AM I SUPPOSED TO BEAT THE PALADIN CLASS CHALLENGE GODDAMMIT I WANT THE AVENGES BUT THE DECK IS SHIT AND KT JUST MURDERS ALL MY GUYS EVERY TURN HOW THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO WIN A GAME WHEN I CAN'T PLAY ANY FUCKING CARDS

[Sudo_Nym]

Finally got him down, basically by just lucking into Oozes + buffs. It's just so odd that it's so much more difficult than the other challenges- I don't know if I'd prefer the others to be harder or this to be easier, but I hate that it was so luck dependent.

[Sudo_Nym]

How do I get dust?

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It appears that most cards only give me ~5 dust on being disenchanted, which doesn't seem like a great rate of return.

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Or you could save the dust until you know what you want?

[Sudo_Nym]

So I spent all my dust building a cheap little warrior combo deck, because I love Grim Patron. So I'm rocking Grim Patron, Acolyte of Pain, and Worgen Berserker (?) along with Whirlwind, Death's Bite, and Unstable Ghoul to trigger them. Warsong Commander for added fun. I'm thinking Armorsmith and Frothing Berserker should be in here, but I don't have any and I'm out of dust.

[Sudo_Nym]

Here's my current decklist, if you want to critique it for a newbie:

Execute x2
Whirlwind x2
Fiery War Axe x2
Slam x2
Cruel Taskmaster x2
Unstable Ghoul x2
Shield Block x2
Acolyte of Pain x2
Raging Worgen x1
Warsong Commander x2
Death's Bite x2
Dread Corsair x2
Gnomish Inventor x2
Hungry Dragon x2
Grim Patron x2
Emperor Thaurissan x1

I had Axe Flinger in, but it proved to be bad, so I put in Hungry Dragon. Hopefully, the whirlwinds et al can clear the 1 drop, while the 5/6 Dragon can clear a few threats to keep me alive. Shield Block should be Battle Rage, I think, but I don't have Battle Rage and Shield Block also gives armor when I don't have Armorsmith. Raging Worgen should probably be Frothing Berserker, but I don't have any of those. Unstable Ghoul and Dread Corsair for cheap Taunts.

I'm looking at Revenge, since it has a lot of potential upside, but it costs more than Whirlwind and kills Grim Patron when the second part becomes active. I also have a Loot Hoarder and a Mad Bomber that I'm tempted to put in, but I have no idea what I'd cut. I also feel like Deathlord might be better than Dread Corsair, except that Dread Corsair gets really cheap with a weapon.

[Sudo_Nym]

Cut Slam? But it triggers Patron and draws a card, and can double as kill in the early game. And would you recommend Battle Rage over something (Slam/Shield Block)?

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Is Doomspeaker worth hanging onto, or can I disenchant it to make stuff?

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Yeah, Doomsayer. I think it's the only card I have right now worth more than 5 dust, but I don't want to be disenchanting cards I might actually use someday.

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And Hogger is officially my first Legendary

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Well, I mean other than the guaranteed legendaries from buying Naxx/BRM

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My first potentially

disenchantable

Legendary, if you will.

[Sudo_Nym]

Finally managed my first 7 win run. Almost had 8, but then the druid had double swipe on the turn before I could win.

After about 5-6 runs, I seem to do better when I'm playing control than when I'm not playing control.

[Sudo_Nym]

Audiotsunami#1173
Anyone have any friendly noob advice?

If you hurry and get to rank 20 (you can't go down in rank before you hit it) by the end of the month, you get a special card back for the month! Ranked tends to give fairer matches than Unranked for new players, too.

Yeah; it's weird, because I usually play unranked when I'm trying to get into a new game, but in Hearthstone, Ranked will match you up with other people at your level, whereas Unranked usually matches you with experts testing out a new deck.

[Sudo_Nym]

You don't get cards for reaching 20; you get a special card back for the month. So you can change what the back of the cards look like, but nothing of actual value.

[Sudo_Nym]

Nope. On the plus side, you can't lose rank if you're level 20 or lower, so you can get it guaranteed if you play enough.

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Yeah, I had a lot of trouble with Rogue, just because Rogue really gets its power from Combo cards, very few of which you get early. Shaman has the same problem with Overload spells.

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Yeah, and what's with all the jerks playing RDW?

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Finally broke down and bought a bunch of packs to play constructed with. Got a Ysera and a Harrison Jones. Are those good?

[Sudo_Nym]

So here's the deck I've put together:

Execute x2
Whilwind x2
Fiery War Axe x2
Battle Rage x2
Commanding Shout
Slam x2
Armorsmith
Cruel Taskmaster x2
Unstable Ghoul x2
Acolyte of Pain x2
Frothing Berserker x2
Warsong Commander x2
Death's Bite x2
Dread Corsair x2
Gnomish Inventor
Grim Patron x2
Emperor Thaurissan

I seem to be having some trouble with it, though; I'm not great at the Frothing Berserker math yet.

[Sudo_Nym]

Yeah. I found the deck in advance of finding the guide, so I've apparently not been using Grim Patrons proactively enough.

[Sudo_Nym]

I think Battle Rage is necessary, just because you need to draw cards. Especially against Freeze Mage, where getting 3+ cards out of Battle Rage can determine whether you win or lose. I'd be more likely to cut Gnomish Inventor if I wanted a slot.

Dread Corsair is nice, not just because it's a Taunt, but because it's free with Death's Bite- each Dread Corsair is a Frothing Berserker pump + 3 damage if played during the combo, and can hold the fort for a turn when i don't have the combo.

But yeah, I really need to be doing stuff like Grim Patron+Whirlwind in advance of the combo; combined with Cruel Taskmaster/Slam, I'm giving up a lot of value by not doing that. I'm also finding that Frothing Berserker gets me more actual kills than Grim Patron does, which kinda makes me want to try and get a Grommash maybe? I have no idea what a good way to get dust is besides buy a bunch of cards and disenchanting, though.

[Sudo_Nym]

Here's the Druid deck I've put together:

Innervate x2
Zombie Chow x2
Wild Growth x2
Wrath x2
Savage Roar x2
Blackwing Technician x2
Swipe x2
Hungry Dragon x2
Keeper of the Grove x2
Nourish x2
Blackwing Corruptor x2
Harrison Jones
Sludge Belcher x2
Force of Nature
Emperor Thaurissan
Ironbark Protector x2
Ysera

So the point is to try and ramp up, use dragon synergy like Technician and Corruptor to stay alive until either I can drop something large quickly or Force of Nature + Savage Roar for a kill. Card I wish I had include Druid of the Claw, Ancient of Lore, Ancient of War. I think this is the first real deck I didn't netdeck, so any suggestions are gladly accepted.

[Sudo_Nym]

If I had a Shredder, sure. I mostly have Technician because I needed a 3 drop, and it was basically between Technician and Shade of Naxxramus. I could see it going the other way, but I'm hard pressed to think of a better card to play in that slot.

[Sudo_Nym]

I got a Sylvanas and a Dr. Boom. Are those good?

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Hearthstone is a stupid game and I hate it. Played half a dozen games of my Face Hunter deck in a row, didn't have a 1-drop on turn 1, a 2-drop on turn 2, a 3-drop on turn 3, or a 4-drop on turn 4 in any of them. Either this is atypical, or a better player than me can turn a handful of quickshots and glaivezookas into a win.

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I'm not actually playing Face Hunter, it's more like Hybrid Hunter. And I'm getting cards to play, but only the spells (Quick Shot, Unleash the Hounds), not the creatures; I try mulliganing for creatures, but I'm not drawing them on time. Mostly I'm just bitching at a bad night at Hearthstone because I'm a whiny baby.

[Sudo_Nym]

I've been playing Control Priest lately; been enjoying it. Had a Warlock player and a Hunter player scoop to a 3rd turn Deathlord. Been using this:

Circle of Healing x2
Light of the Naaru
Power Word: Shield x2
Northshire Cleric x2
Shadow Word: Pain
Shrinkmeister x2
Wild Pyromancer x2
Shadow Word: Death x2
Thoughtsteal x2
Deathlord x2
Injured Blademaster x2
Shadow Madness x2
Auchenai Soulpriest x2
Holy Nova
Sludge Belcher x2
Cabal Shadow Priest
Sylvanas
Dr. Boom

Basically, the goal is to play board control early, using Wild Pyromancer and Injured Blademaster, draw card with Northshire, and eventually take over the board with Achenai Soulpriest killing stuff. The ability to heal up my guys after trades so they stay on the board later has been working really nice.

[Sudo_Nym]

It's cool. I have a habit of looking over people's shoulders while they play. I've found that some combination of watching and playing has been the most helpful at improving.

I'd been playing Patron Warrior, but having trouble with it; partly, I think it's because people are coming prepared for it now, and partly because my reflexes aren't fast enough to get all my attacks in after the animations chew up my timer. I tried playing a few Hunter variants, but couldn't get the hang of it. Now I'm playing Control Priest; it took some time to get used to it, since Control Priest tends to be a bit more passive in the early game than Hunter or Warrior are, but now that I've got a handle, I've been laddering pretty decently.

I'm curious whether Recombobulator, Lightbomb, or Ysera are worth playing, though. Recomb works well with Shadow Madness, since you then get to keep the new character permanently, and Lightbomb deals with Dr. Boom a lot better than Holy Nova. Ysera would also be a late game threat, since my curve tops out at Dr. Boom. I hadn't though having a bigger threat would be necessary, but I played a Control Priest mirror last night that came down to fatigue, and being able to close those sorts of games out would be nice.

That said, nobody ever seems to expect a Priest to be able to handle a 4-attack minion; stealing Yseras and Piloted Shredders with Shrinkmeister+Cabal Shadow Priest has been super nice. And Shadow Madnessing to kill two guys has been really nice, too. Wish I had more consistent card draw, at times, since I can't always count on Northshire.

If I had more money/dust, I'd be trying to be Control Warrior together next.

[Sudo_Nym]

I like the idea of Paladin, since I like the hero power, but I'm not sure if it's possible to build a viable Paladin deck without Muster for Battle; it seems like such an important tempo card for basically any type of Paladin.

It also strikes me as weird that Paladins get a lot of secrets, but the Rogue doesn't get any secrets at all. What's up with that?

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I was there, can confirm it was awesome.

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How do I zoolock?

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Regular; I don't have Mal'Ganis et al yet.

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Lost 3 straight in Arena today to Ragnaros, Dr. Boom, and then Deathwing. So tilted; if my deck hadn't sucked, I'd be super mad right now.

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I thought they've actually done a good job of avoiding power creep, for the most part. Very few of the cards revealed are strictly better than cards that already exist, nothing looks ridiculously strong, and the cards that are are Epics and Legendaries. Obviously, we'll see what happens to the meta after release, but it doesn't seem too bad. And if it slows down all the aggro decks, I don't see that as a bad thing.

[Sudo_Nym]

I'm really liking the look of Wrynn. If it was just "Draw 3" it would be fine, but this is better. And it's not like Control Warrior is going to have trouble paying 10 at some point.

[Sudo_Nym]

The question is, what's the cut for Varian? I feel like a lot of the top end stuff like Alex and Grommash is stuff that Control Warrior would rather keep. I guess you cut something like Ragnaros or Baron Geddon? We'll see what lists look like.

Speaking of Warrior, Alex's Champion looks like it could make Dragon Warrior an actual deck.

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Dr. Boom is probably going to continue being the best legendary in the game; it basically goes in any deck that expects to play out to turn 7.

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That said, I'm really eager to try out that new Priest legendary that summons other Legendaries. Priest control could be a tier 1 deck with all the new toys it got. And Shaman Control and Hunter Control might be real decks, as well!

[Sudo_Nym]

Unfortunately the priest legendary will not survive a turn (even Emperor dies immediately most the time and that is turn 6, with 5 health), which means you have to use it on turn 9... At that point I would rather use Sneed's with pretty much the same effect but with a bigger body.

Fair enough; the Confessor will almost certainly get killed immediately for sure, but even on turn 9, it's value- the Confessor summons the legendary immediately, while Shredder summons it in the future. Combine getting the value now instead of later with the fact that it can't be silenced if you use it immediately, and I think it's good enough for a try. Obviously, we'll see if it's too slow, which I suspect it probably is. Honestly, I think what will do it in is not the comparison to Shredder, but the fact that it's slow and you have a chance of winding up with a Pagle or a Cho.

[Sudo_Nym]

I'm really looking forward to the possible Control Hunter and Dragon Warrior decks. Twilight Guardian and Chillmaw especially look awesome.

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I really like Lock and Load, since it's basically "Draw a card when you cast a spell", and class cards are better than random cards. I just have visions of getting a bunch of Webspinners or something when I play it.

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Goddamnit, I'm too hype right now.

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I can't open anything until I get home I can only assume the release has loaded up all the servers.

I'm definitely getting Varian, though. That's going straight into my Control Warrior deck. I'll probably get Darkbane, too; I've been thinking about a Priest deck that combines that with some buffs for value.

[Sudo_Nym]

I think the numbers worked out such that if you ordered the 50 packs, there's still like an 8% chance that you don't get a legendary.

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I'm surprised they didn't see that exploit and refund arena decks made before release. I'm not sure how much TGT weakens the card pool for Arena, but then, I don't know much about Arena anyway.

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I would assume that arena packs should be TGT now, since I assume it was always packs from the most recent expansion. I suppose you'll have to tell us at the end of your run.

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Finally got home and opened my packs. Here's my first try at a new deck, if somebody wants to critique:


Only worried that I had to cut a Shield Slam and the Brawls to get everything in. Maybe it won't matter? Not sure what to cut to put them back in, though.

[Sudo_Nym]

I just want all the things!

Basically, I think I need the second Shield Slam, a Brawl, and the Belchers. I'd like to try Justicar Trueheart, but I'm not convinced it's worth cutting a Shieldmaiden or something for it. The problem is, these changes require me to cut 4 cards, and I have no idea what to take out.

[Sudo_Nym]

After playing with it, it really isn't fast enough to compete with Token Paladin and the new Shaman deck. Part of that is that I'm not getting Dragons fast enough to activate Twilight Guardian/Chillmaw, despite the fact that I mulligan for them. I might have to cut the whole Dragon theme and bring in more control stuff, or forget the control deck and play Dragons.

[Sudo_Nym]

I think Saraad only works in a deck that's built to take advantage of it, like a mage inspire deck. I don't think you can just play it in an existing deck.

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My god, the out of date meme avatar!

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How much do you know about Control Warrior in the new meta? I'm thinking Whirlwind is now a necessity.

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What's your thoughts on Justicar Trueheart vs. Shieldmaiden?

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I've actually basically dropped the whole Dragon thing from the deck; I can post an updated list when I get home, but basically, I'm going back to straight control warrior, since Alex's Champion doesn't really add anything. I thought it would be nice to have a 2 drop that can 2-for-1 with a lot of Hunter/Paladin cards and get some pressure on Freeze Mage. But I basically would always prefer to have Shield Slam/Whirlwind/Bash instead whenever I drew it.

[Sudo_Nym]

Yeah, but I'm thinking that's better in a Priest deck, where you can use Twilight Whelp and Wyrmrest Agent to fight back on board in the early game until you can drop Twilight Guardian/Blackwing Corrupter to start taking over, and then finish with Ysera/Nefarian/Alexstraza. I was actually doing quite well last night, until a tempo mage Unstable Portaled into Deathwing for the win and I tilted so bad I had to stop.

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Best Legendary is Lorewalker Cho, obvs.

[Sudo_Nym]

Usually, I would suggest getting the neutral legendaries first, since you can play them in multiple decks, but if you've got 1 deck you play more than any other, and don't care about versatility, then get whichever fits into that deck best, I guess.

[Sudo_Nym]

It seems that Gormok is better than expected; he's a nice card for Zoo decks. Mistcaller seems worse than projected, though.

[Sudo_Nym]

So here's an updated decklist:


The biggest problem I'm having is getting board control early; in theory, I should be able to remove my opponent's threats, but in reality, I often just get flooded. It seems to be impossible to get Execute, War Axe, or Brawl before turn 10 for some weird reason.

[Sudo_Nym]

Most of the trouble is with Paladin, being able to play out a ton of stuff. But I've been having trouble with basically anything that hits the board before turn 4- I lost to Dragon Warrior because I literally couldn't do anything to remove Alexstraza's Champion.

[Sudo_Nym]

Why? Given that I need Brawls against most decks, and given that I can't draw a copy of it when I need one with two in my deck, why would I cut one?

[Sudo_Nym]

It's possible; Chillmaw is possibly just a better answer than Brawl anyway.

I would think Alex's champion would be really good in a dragon warrior deck for controlling the board early; 3-3 Charge seems really good. Going Alex's Champion-Blackwing Tech-Twilight Guardian-Blackwing Corrupter seems like a dream.

[Sudo_Nym]

To be fair, Warlock is probably the hardest class for new players. The basic cards aren't very good, and the hero power takes some getting used to.

[Sudo_Nym]

You can do just fine in ranked with basic cards, provided you don't care about getting above rank 15. That said, you'd do best with something like Mage, which has good stuff in its basic cards, rather than stuff like Warlock or Shaman that needs a lot of class cards that aren't in its basic set.

[Sudo_Nym]

It depends on where you're at. If you're completely free to play, then you need to rely on the basics, so you want a class with good basics. If you're willing to spend a little bit and buy packs or arena runs, then you'll be able to put together something cheap like face hunter or aggro pally. if you're willing to buy some of the adventures, you can go with something like a cheap version of Zoolock or Patron Warrior. If you're willing to spend a lot of money, then get whatever, I guess.

[Sudo_Nym]

Basically, you should spend gold on arena runs. Packs cost 100 gold, arena runs cost 150 gold, but come with a guarantee pack in the prizes, so you're basically spending 50 gold for the sake of the arena. If you get at least 3 wins, you'll get more than 50 gold worth of prizes, so you wind up getting more for that. Solo adventures have a lot of useful cards, but saving gold for them is probably going to take forever.

[Sudo_Nym]

Right; if you can consistently get to at least 3 wins, you get more by doing arena runs. Otherwise, you get more by buying packs or adventure wings. But then you can't get to at least 3 wins in arena without practicing arena, so...

[Sudo_Nym]

Hey, free dust, though!

[Sudo_Nym]

I keep thinking that Control Hunter should be able to use Steamwheedle Sniper effectively, but I've yet to see it actually work. Hunter has a lot of cards that feel like they should enable a good control deck, but I haven't seen that really be a thing, either.

It just sucks, since I love control much more than any other style of deck, and a control deck that comes with a built in win condition feels like it should be really good.

[Sudo_Nym]

Speaking of, I'm beginning to think that Kezan Mystic may be a necessary tech card now. Secret Paladin, Face Hunter, and most Mages now depend on secrets.

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I was thinking more of running Kezan Mystic over Piloted Shredder. They have the same stats, and Mystic's battlecry against secret paladin is probably more useful than Shredder's deathrattle.

[Sudo_Nym]

I'm not sure what to make of Mirror Entity vs. Effigy. Effigy is harder to cheat, since you're getting something with a higher base cost, while Mirror Entity can be "tricked" by your opponent playing an Ancient Watcher or something. Effigy has more variance though, since you're getting something random from that cost, while Mirror Entity has the filter that the creature you're getting was good enough to be included in somebody's deck.

[Sudo_Nym]

Especially if you're below level 20, you want to play ranked, because that's where the other newbies will be.

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Wait, is that that Coldara Drake/Majordomo deck? That looks awesome.

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I don't know if it's like a real deck, I just saw on Hearthpwn that somebody put together a freeze mage deck that used Coldarra Drake and Majordome as the finish rather than Antonidas.

[Sudo_Nym]

http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/319161-l ... ferno-mage is the decklist I was thinking about.

[Sudo_Nym]

Dragon Priest does what you're talking about, I think. Wyrmrest Agent at 2 is a good anti-aggro taunt, and it usually draws a Silence so they don't have anything for Twilight Guardian. Combine that with Twilight Whelp to trade favorably early, and your choice of Blackwing Technician or Deathlord at 3 to further punish aggro. Then you've still got stuff like Blackwing Corrupter, Cabal Shadow Priest, and Chillmaw to just take over if they can't finish. And there's still room around the edges for some tech like Auchenai+Circle or Wild Pyro, though Dragons do take up a lot of the room for that stuff that Priest used to have.

[Sudo_Nym]

Not just that, but Priests also get Lightbomb, which takes out Dr. Boom and his bots in one go!

[Sudo_Nym]

I don't necessarily think that the problem is instant kill combos; instant kill combos are fine- I don't think Druids are broken because they've had FoN+SR forever; and I don't think Mages need a nerf. I think the problem with Patron is the inevitability- the combo itself synergizes very well with the rest of the deck to make it very difficult to stop. If they allowed the combo (and future combos) and just took away the part where there's nothing you can do to stop it instead, I think that'd be fine.

[Sudo_Nym]

One of the major problems with Hearthstone combo in comparison to Magic is the mulligan rule, honestly- in theory, a Hearthstone player who goes second can see 9 cards of his deck before he takes his first turn. In a 30 card deck, seeing 9 cards right at the start affords you a high level of consistency that enables combos.

[Sudo_Nym]

The four cards you pitch back get shuffled, so it doesn't really matter that you saw them. Also, if you're mulling four cards, you're stuck with four random cards from your deck, which is way less than ideal for any combo deck.

Except that you're guaranteed to get 4 cards that are different from the 4 cards you started with (except that you can get the other copy). If you're digging for specific cards, being able to see up to 9 cards of a 30 card deck to get it is overwhelmingly in your favor. After that, it doesn't matter, obviously, because of the shuffle, but the fact that the mulligan cards are guaranteed to not be the mulliganed cards is significant.

[Sudo_Nym]

I'm pretty sure the devs have states that you can't get the same card back from a mulligan; you can only get the copy if you've got a 2-of of a card you mulliganed.

[Sudo_Nym]

I've never had a card I mulliganed away come back if it was a 1-of. However, I have sometimes had 1-of mulliganed cards come back on my first non-mulligan draw, which you'd expect because your deck is reshuffled after mulligans.

[Sudo_Nym]

Goddamn I love Dragon Priest.

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Why does Ysera always give me Laughing Sister?!

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No, Reck! Don't go to the Dark Side! Put your faith in the Chillmaw!

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A hideous revelation: observation reveals that AP plays Face Hunter!

[Sudo_Nym]

Hungry Dragon is fine, but it's hard to play. You basically have to be in a position to handle the 1-drop immediately; if you're not, then it's not good. And if you are in a position to handle to 1-drop immediately, you probably would have been fine with any 4-drop.

[Sudo_Nym]

Why does the Unstable Portal brawl include Mindgames?

[Sudo_Nym]

So I have this problem where I like building decks for Hearthstone, and I enjoy spectating matches and watching streamers, but I don't feel like I have much fun actually playing, and I feel like this is both a waste and a quick turnaround on my enthusiasm for the game. Like, I'll build a new take on Dragon Priest, think "that looks good", then log off and never play it.

[Sudo_Nym]

I think my problem with the game is that I love control decks, and dislike aggro decks. Dragon Priest is about as close to a non-control deck as I play. But then I come up against Eboladin, Secretdin, and Face Hunter all the time, and either they have the cancer draw and I lose, or they don't and I win, and it feels like whatever I'm doing is irrelevant.

[Sudo_Nym]

Nozdormu hardcounters Patron.

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Just gotta go fast!

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True story; I tried watching a Lifecoach stream once, because I'd heard good reviews of him. I gave up when he roped on turn 1 with no 1 cost cards in his hand.

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Not that I'm sad to see Patron get dialed down, except that "dialed down" means "completely gutted". Is the deck even viable without Warsong Commander? And does Warrior have a second viable deck without Patron? It's basically down to just Control Warrior, since Bolster Warrior never happened.

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I don't mind netdecking; I do it a lot. My CW deck is basically a netdeck that I tweaked for my style, and it's the most fun deck for me.

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Play a deck that beats Secret Paladin = Profit

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I think that's the problem I have with Hearthstone right now; I don't mind powerful cards, per se, I mind that a lot of the decks are just "Drop on curve and swing" and remain perfectly viable with no real decisions. Paladin especially has such insane value in it's 3-8 slots that it's basically unbeatable in the midgame if it curves out.

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Well, the simplified design makes it a very accessible game, which is sort of Blizzard's MO about its games. The problem is that a simplified design harshly limits your design space; there's a very small list of viable cards at each cost, so you play the ones that synergize, and try to curve out every game. And the decks that can do this most consistently are the aggro decks, because they have that lower curve that puts immediate pressure on an opponent to find answers and wreck their curve playing answers instead of developing. If aggro doesn't get Leper Gnome t1, it still has a lot of other good plays it can make; but if Control Warrior doesn't get it's Axe turn 2, it might just be game before he stabilize.

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I suppose, though so far that hasn't happened- TGT mostly filled in the gaps on the curve with a few cards, and the rest are largely unplayable. I wasn't around for early Magic, so I don't know from experience if they had this problem when they had a more restricted card pool.

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Which is basically what I'm talking about. There's so many value cards available on curve now, that you just play the best one in each slot and call it. There's not a lot of strategy in deck building, since you're either playing the best card for the slot, or you're playing a worse card that you should cut for the best card instead. Your paladin doesn't have to play t3 Muster, but it's just going to be worse than any paladin that does. So you either play Muster, or you deliberately play a card that's worse than Muster, which isn't really a decision. Then when it's time to play, you mulligan for your curve, then drop on curve- with most aggro decks, there's no point to ever deviate, since you have all the pressure and don't need to answer your opponent's stuff most of the time, since they're the ones that die if they don't answer you. Which is also why Paladin is so disgusting right now- the curve Reck listed is basically 8 turns in a row, from the start of the game, each of which is a must-answer threat that has no efficient answer. By the time Mysterious Challenger or Dr. Boom comes down, you've probably been forced to use your answers for Muster and Quartermaster.

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Honestly, I don't think Dr. Boom by itself is so huge a problem. It's powerful, but lots of cards are powerful. The real problem is that it stands head and shoulders above any other available 7 drop, so any deck that runs a 7 drop has no better options. Or even anything close to its power level. So everybody runs it in every deck that lasts that long.

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Right. I'm not trying to say there isn't a problem with Doom being too powerful, I'm saying he's too powerful because all of the other neutral 7s suck. So if you play 7s, you never have a better option. Druid can maybe get away with playing their Ancients and avoiding running BGH targets, but nobody else can. Either Doom needs to be brought down to match the power level of 7s more closely, or he needs competition. Probably the first one is better, but who knows.

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Right. I'm not trying to say there isn't a problem with Doom being too powerful, I'm saying he's too powerful because all of the other neutral 7s suck. So if you play 7s, you never have a better option. Druid can maybe get away with playing their Ancients and avoiding running BGH targets, but nobody else can. Either Doom needs to be brought down to match the power level of 7s more closely, or he needs competition. Probably the first one is better, but who knows.

I think you're missing my point a bit.

I'm saying that, given where 7-drop power level should be, dr boom is still to strong. Making more cards as powerful as dr boom would just mean you have a lot of really broken shit on 7 instead of one broken thing on 7

I can agree with that. I still think you want things that are above and below where the curve is supposed to be, so I don't have a problem with Dr. Boom being above where 7s should be. Maybe it's too far above where 7s should be, but there's still a huge gap between Dr. Boom and the next best neutral 7 that shouldn't exist.

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I don't know if Piloted Shredder is too good, if I'm honest. Getting a 2 for 1 is good, but there's lots of cards that do that already (Sludge Belcher, Muster for Battle, and so forth). And after TGT, the average 2 drop isn't very good, either. My real problem with Shredder is that there's no particularly efficient removal for it; there's lots of efficient, sticky creatures in Hearthstone, and no quality removal to match it, so when you get stuff like Piloted Shredder dropped on you, you run out of defense faster.

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I don't know if Piloted Shredder is too good, if I'm honest. Getting a 2 for 1 is good, but there's lots of cards that do that already (Sludge Belcher, Muster for Battle, and so forth). And after TGT, the average 2 drop isn't very good, either. My real problem with Shredder is that there's no particularly efficient removal for it; there's lots of efficient, sticky creatures in Hearthstone, and no quality removal to match it, so when you get stuff like Piloted Shredder dropped on you, you run out of defense faster.

The problem is that it means that creatures with 4 health are significantly worse than those with 5 health because of shredder.

That's always going to happen when you have creatures that trade efficiently in the meta, though.

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Is Reno really that good? Feels like it would be hard to trigger in a serious deck.

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Doesn't freeze mage rely on having lots of duplicates? Or are you saving Reno for when you've drawn out your deck late game?

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Flamewaker should already be really good against fast aggro, since most of their stuff dies to pings. I've seen some mages running Arcane Explosion as a 1-of, but I don't know if that's actually good.

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How'd you know which one to play before spinning? Is there an option to only spin against Control decks?

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Freeze Mage does seem like a lot of fun, but I don't have Archmage, and he seems critical.

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Aggro Druid is maybe the best deck in the game right now, Glork. It's good against Secret Paladin, and has no really bad matchups. But it is the only deck that actually plays Fel Reavers, so only craft them if you're committing to that deck.

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I don't think that's what he's saying. He's saying, that with so little interaction, and with the fact that most turns feature no real decision making, the only strategy left is in deckbuilding. Which is a harsh place to be, since as you point out, any deckbuilding game is going to have netdecking. So Hearthstone is kinda shooting itself in the foot from square 1.

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I thought the whole point of Freeze Mage was abusing Thaurissan to get cheap spells for Antonidas.

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Is Kel'Thuzad actually played anywhere anymore?

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To be fair, I think they mulligan hard for those cards. A paladin who plays first on t3 is seeing up to 9 cards by t3 in a thirty card deck to try and find their Musters.

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Patron I think is fine. It's just a midrange deck instead of a combo deck now. You don't get the uberpowerful kill combo, but it's still a deck that can take over the board, and it plays differently than everything else.

Frankly, my biggest problem pre-nerf was the rope.

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Before the nerf, when Patron revolved around the OTK combo, pulling off the whole thing with the animations would take the full 90 seconds, so if you didn't get on your horse, you'd rope out. I don't think the current Patron, being less of a combo deck, has that problem.

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As a curiousity, if I play Sir Finley to discover a new hero power, then play Justicar Trueheart, do I get the upgraded version of my original hero power, or my new discovered one?

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You could try just playing control. Fatigue Warrior doesn't really care about Reno.

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8 health taunt is great, especially since against agro, they're likely to wind up with something like Leper Gnome if they kill it, which probably isn't of huge consequence. Against control, they might get something bigger, but most control priests run 2 SW:D anyway.

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I've been seeing some articles suggesting that Elise is really good for Control Warrior, since it obviates the need for carrying lots of win cons. You can make your deck almost entirely answers, and just keep removing your opponents board until it turns your deck in legendaries. Don't know if it'll work, but sounds like fun.

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I imagine Elise isn't that good normally (though I'm at the point where I'm watching streamers and not actually playing right now), just because drawing it all out is super-inconsistent. But if you're a deck that draws the game out and draws most of their deck anyway, and just make your deck even more focused on stalling the game until you win, then maybe?

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Right. You don't bother with running wincons; you just run 29 answers + Elise. Just keep removing your opponent's board until you get the Golden Monkey, then start dropping legendaries. Feels like it'd be a slow win, but that's not too far removed from what Fatigue Warrior was doing already.

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I'd rather go the other way- I'd be more willing to bank on conquest opponents having decks weak to a 3-control lineup than to a 3-aggro lineup.

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What format? I'd be willing to get back in for it, probably.

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Is Bolster Warrior a thing yet?

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Got back in, made it to 16, which is maybe not impressive, but I get a card back. Discover is a fun mechanic, and the meta is fun to play in again, which is nice. We'll see how long it lasts.

Got enough dust to make another legendary. Trying to decide if I want Jaraxxus, Antonidas, Tirion, or Baron Geddon.

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Baron Geddon is really only good in Control Warrior, but I've already got most of the legendaries for that anyway- Trueheart, Ragnaros, Sylvanas, Ysera, Grom, and Alex, because I'm a consumer whore.

Tirion opens up a bunch of Paladin decks, and is maybe the best class legend.

Antonidas is really good in Tempo Mage and Freeze Mage, both decks I like, and Freeze Mage is basically unplayable without him.

Jaraxxus makes Handlock better, which is one my favorite decks, and is basically necessary in Renolock.

And I suppose I like the Reno decks; I hated the fast aggro meta, and I like the new slower meta. Of course, it also means people can't grind through matches in 5 minutes either, which can be positive or negative, based on what you like. Odd that Shammy is the only viable aggro deck now, though- I thought Face Hunter and Eboladin would be around forever.

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Reno does potential price people out of the format, since you need a bunch of good cards to fill out a deck if you want to play it, or you have to play a higher class deck in order to beat it- face hunter was one of the best decks for budget players, but it can't beat Reno, so it's dying. So I can understand that.

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Maybe. I always found the struggle for board control to be more interesting; it's one of the reasons one of my favorite decks to play and to play against was Handlock.

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Got a pack for watching AP. Pack had Cenarius in it.

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Also, what kind of douche brings Wallet Warrior into casual?

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So I started playing RenoLock. That's a fun deck.

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That's basically why I play ranked. To me, casual is where newbies and people testing new decks go; I don't care what my rank is, I just want to play against better competition. I'd rather get stomped by Trump or somebody than beat up 9-year-olds all day.

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I don't think testing in casual is about establishing a win rate, it's about figuring out the interactions in a no-pressure environment. If you're just learning to play Freeze Mage or something, maybe you don't want to lose stars while figuring out how it works.

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Sure, and you'll never get good at any deck without playing quality opponents playing a range of decks. But its still useful for some people to figure out things like "I can Abusive Sergeant his guy so I can BGH it" and stuff in an environment where there isn't pressure.

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I don't think it's a right way/wrong way sort of thing. Different people like different things. I don't think I've actually played casual past my first week of Hearthstone, so I may not be its best advocate. But I will say that if you bring a netdecked Wallet Warrior to casual, you're an asshole.

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However, in poker, you can control the variance by choosing not to play hands. In Hearthstone, you get a bad mulligan, you're losing stars. Poker, you get bad hole cards, you fold, and you're just out the blind.

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Shea playing literally the greatest Druid in the universe.

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That deck was absurd. It was literally like 29 legends and a tree of life. Every single thing that dude played me and sudo were like WHAT

You don't need a coherent game plan when you kick that much ass.

Turn one: coin, Nat pagle. W-w-what are you doing?

Fishing, obviously.

Next hs tournament I'm playing that deck.

I think you have to rock just the hardest every day to be able to pilot that deck.

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I feel like the best arena decks are the ones that can get consistent value from their hero power. Warrior and Shaman can be good if you draft a good deck, but you can't count on your hero power to help you if you don't. Meanwhile, Mages and Paladins have good hero powers that can help them salvage a more mediocre deck.

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Yeah, I think before Paladin moved into Secrets, there was a vogue for Divine Shield. It was awful.

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I find Renolock tons of fun to play, but I don't climb with it very well. Conversely, I hate playing Secretadin, but I climb pretty fast with it.

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Jeweled Scarab is pretty good for slower decks, Ethereal Conjurer is a new staple for Tempo Mage, Tunnel Trogg is the centerpiece of the new Aggro Shaman deck, Tomb Spider is alright in some decks, Unearthed Raptor enables a new Rogue archetype, Fierce Monkey is seeing some play, Gorillabot is pretty good in Mech decks, Anyfin Can Happen enables an OTK Paladin deck, Raven Idol is nice in Midrange Druid, Museum Curator is good in Control Priest, Desert Camel is seeing play in some new Hunter lists, and Curse of Rafaam is seeing a little bit of play in some Zoolock decks. So nothing that's a must-have for every deck, really, but a lot of solid-to-great cards for specific decks.

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Most don't. I've seen a few decks on Hearthpwn that claim to have reached legend playing it. The idea is that you apply so much pressure early that your opponent never gets the chance to get the Curse out of their hand, so it's like playing a free Steady Shot every turn. I don't know if it works, and I've never seen a streamer play it, but there you are.

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Oh, also, of the Challenge cards that I forgot, Dark Peddler, Mounted Raptor, Keeper of Uldaman, Entomb, and Tomb Pillager have all become staples in certain decks, and I've seen a few gimmick decks built around Everyfin is Awesome and Animated Armor, but I can't vouch for their quality.

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Also, also, Brann Bronzebeard, Elise Starseeker, Reno Jackson, and Arch-Thief Rafaam are all pretty good.

I finally managed to drop a Golden Monkey with my Control Priest deck against a Control Warrior when we were in fatigue, but he conceded to Trade Prince Gallywix.

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Easily the boss fight I hated the most, too.

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Also, Sir Finley is really nice in some decks and Excavated Evil gives Priest another board clear. I think that's all that remains of the cards I keep forgetting. I keep feeling like Ancient Shade should also be good, in the Fel Reaver vein, but it doesn't seem to be.

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Tunnel Trogg is so powerful in the 1-drop slot, I wouldn't be surprised if it got nerfed like Undertaker did.

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Challenger is pretty ridiculous, yeah. I don't know if Reno really needs a nerf, though, since it's a card that only really works if you completely build around it, and building around it costs you a lot of consistency.

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I bring life and BLAAARGH

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That's what Druids are all about, though.

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Also, today I got to spend half an hour playing a Control Warrior mirror. I love playing Control Warrior but constantly getting matched up in the mirror makes laddering slow.

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Is it just me, or is Midrange Druid basically the worst deck? After about a dozen games, all I've managed to do is fall behind on board immediately and then die.

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What the hell is going on today? Did Blizzard put in programming to screw over Control Priests or what?

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Saw a "Malygos, Prophet Velen, Faceless copying Velen, Mind Blast for 40" yesterday.

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now how did that happen

Hella

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amazeballs

Are you being cereal right now?

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So what happens to the players who now can't play the old adventures? A new player wants to get into Wild, but can't buy Naxxramus, so then what do they do? Just not play Belchers?

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The old cards rotated out of Standard will still be craftable, including adventure cards. The Naxxramas adventure itself will be gone though which I find quite silly.

A lot of those cards are soulbound, though, and not craftable. I assume they'll be made craftable?

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I played Silent Combo Druid today. What was meant to happen was that I would use Wailing Soul in combo with Ancient Watcher, Eerie Statue, and Fel Reaver. What actually happened was that I used Force of Nature and Savage Roar to fart out wins by accident. I feel like this always happen when I play Druid.

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So it occurs to me that Sludge Belcher and Annoy-o-tron being gone is going to make Face a lot easier to hit. Piloted Shredder being gone means 4 health minions become more playable? Dr. Boom being gone make BGH worse and therefore other 7 attack minions better?

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I think Face Shaman loses Crackle from GvG, and that's all they care about? So that's 28 cards the deck gets to keep. So Face Shaman is losing one burn card, and all of Face Shaman's opponents are losing Annoy-o-tron, Sludge Belcher, and Antique Healbot.

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I'm wondering what the rebalance of Classic cards will do to the Wild format, though. The conceit of dividing them was to have a format that wasn't affected by rotation so people who wanted to play with all the cards could do so. But if Savage Roar gets rebalanced in Classic to avoid breaking Standard, that's going to affect the Wild meta, too.

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Another problem I'm thinking about is that most decks are made up of a majority of Basic/Classic cards anyway- Druid for example, generally starts with 2x Innervate, 2x Wild Growth, 2x Wrath, 2x Swipe, 2x Druid of the Claw, 2x Ancient of Lore, 2x Savage Roar, 2x Force of Nature. That's 16 cards in a 30 card deck from just the Basic/Classic cards, which suggests that rotation is changing up the flex cards, maybe, but they're not changing the essential core of the Druid deck.

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Maybe they should go to a Magic style system, where instead of having an eternal basic/classic set as a base, you have yearly updates to which cards from the basic/classic sets are legal- sometimes you take out cards and replace them with reprints from the rotated out sets.

I do like the idea of rotation on a whole, though, since it keeps the game from stagnating and opens up design space- adding new cards without removing old cards will require power creep for the new cards to see play, at a certain point. I don't know how well the currently planned implementation will actually work, but I'll be cautiously optimistic until we actually see what the rebalancing will entail.

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Thaurissan is BRM, though, so that'll rotate out. I don't know if the Combo is broken in the absolute, but it is by far Druid's best wincon.

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Nerfing the combo takes out possibly four cards, but that still leaves 12 cards from basic/classic that are auto-includes in druid, which still feels like a lot. Druid isn't going to stop playing Innervate, Wild Growth, Wrath, Swipe, Druid of the Claw, or Ancient of Lore. In a deck that can only have 30 cards, locking down 12 of them feels like a lot, still.

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Nerfing the combo takes out possibly four cards, but that still leaves 12 cards from basic/classic that are auto-includes in druid, which still feels like a lot. Druid isn't going to stop playing Innervate, Wild Growth, Wrath, Swipe, Druid of the Claw, or Ancient of Lore. In a deck that can only have 30 cards, locking down 12 of them feels like a lot, still.

The point is that nerfing Commander was explicitly

because

it was OP as fuck. Nerfing the combo isn't because it's OP.

No, I get it, and I approve of the idea that Druids should have a different build- that's the point of rotation, to make the decks that are good more dynamic. My point isn't that banning the combo shouldn't happen, or that it's OP- it's that Druids are going to have nearly half a deck of auto-includes from the basic/classic cards. If nothing else, taking out the combo doesn't shake Druids up enough.

Nerfing the combo takes out possibly four cards, but that still leaves 12 cards from basic/classic that are auto-includes in druid, which still feels like a lot. Druid isn't going to stop playing Innervate, Wild Growth, Wrath, Swipe, Druid of the Claw, or Ancient of Lore. In a deck that can only have 30 cards, locking down 12 of them feels like a lot, still.

The combo can/should disappear, but these cards not leaving the format isn't really a terrible thing.
That's like taking all ramp spells out of Green in MtG - that's simply what the class is.

I don't disagree that Druids (and all classes) should have some mechanics they always have access to, as part of the essence of what that class is- Druids should always have some sort of ramp, Warriors should always have weapons, and so forth. But Druids always having ramp doesn't necessarily mean always having Wild Growth- maybe sometimes they can have Wild Growth, and in other formats they have Darnassus Aspirant instead. Or maybe sometimes they have a completely different ramp spell; having ramp is important to the essence of druid, but there's a bunch of ways you could play around with that. But Druids are going to continue playing Innervate for as long as Innervate is an option, so that's 2 cards that are on permanent lockdown.

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I don't want to have every staple card taken away from every class. I'd just like to see the staples rebalanced so that you don't start every deck by putting in the 10-16 basic/classic cards that you play in every deck. If Innervate were the only Classic card that got put in every Druid archetype, that'd be one thing. But it's just one of like 16 cards that you put in every Druid deck.

I'd also like to see every class have at least two viable archetypes, but I don't know if that's possible- some classes just have better intrinsic mechanics than others, or are at least more flexible.

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That just seems horrible.

Cards like Innvervate, Fireball, Truesilver Champion, Execute, Sprint, they're part of what defines a class. It's fine for a class to have "signature" cards. I really dislike the MTG approach to color separation where one block white is some hyper aggressive weenie thing and the next it's a slow, controlling archtype, just based on what they felt like. I like how each hearthstone class has a distinctive flavor.

I don't like every fucking game you lose against a class ending the same way, with 14-28 damage worth of trees and bullshit to the face. It's why I think they should consider not evergreening Ice Lance. Frostbolt, Firebolt, Flamestrike, Blizzard, these are all iconic. Ice Lance is just a buff to Freeze Mage, and a key card in that deck.

As I said, I don't mind every class having its trademark mechanics. But there's a difference between "Trademark Mechanic" and "Can only have these cards". Druid can and should always have ramp. The ramp doesn't always have to be Innervate. Mages should always have burn spells. Those spells don't have to be Fireballs.

The difference is that innervate is wayyyyyyyy better than Fireball.

Also that's kind of unfair to Shaman and Hunter because both only really have 1 archtype.

1. Fireball isn't even the most obvious staple for mage, I've seen certain decks that only run x1 or none at all(certain types of Dragon Mage for example). It's Frostbolt that is the even bigger staple for mage. Can you really say though that cards like Fiery War Axe for Warrior, Northshire cleric and the other 50 auto-include priest cards, Eviscerate for Rogue, etc, are fundamentally any different from innervate?
2. Shaman is universally considered the most poorly designed class in the game (thanks overload). Hunter is predisposed to be a class with an aggressive archetype thanks to its hero power. These two classes have bigger issues than staple cards.

I'd just like to see the staples rebalanced so that you don't start every deck by putting in the 10-16 basic/classic cards that you play in every deck.

The key strength of the auto-includes being basic cards is that new players start with strong cards they can build their early decks around. It should remain like this, the strongest cards shouldn't always be the ones a new player has to spend a lot of money or days of grinding to collect. The main game developer, Ben Brode, said this is the biggest reason why basic cards are as strong as they are and I agree with him that it's a good idea for newbies.

I don't mind basic cards being good so that people have a strong base to start. I have a problem with the basic cards being so strong that they take up half your deck before you've decided what your deck actually is. If basic cards were at the level where it's "These basic cards for this archetype, these basics for that archetype, season to taste", that'd be great. The current "I'm Druid, so I have 16 cards committed, then I'll figure out what variant I am" is less good. It's not dynamic, and it's not interesting. I'd even be comfortable with "These basics are good in this standard, but in the next standard, different basics will be good." I'm not sure how workable that actually is from a design standpoint, but I feel like "These basics are so good that you have to play them no matter what" is an inherent limitation on both card design (since cards have to either synergize with or be better than those cards to be playable) and on deck design (because Innervate for example is so good that you don't build a 30 card druid deck, you build a 28 cards + 2 Innervate deck).

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Is Taz'dingo going to be good enough to slot in for Sludge Belcher? Losing GvG and Naxx would seem to make control a lot worse (Warriors lose Shieldmaiden and Death's Bite; Priests lose Lightbomb, Vol'jin, Shrinkmeister and Velen's Chosen, for instance), but it also gets rid of of a lot of the stickier threats (Dr. Boom, Piloted Shredder, Muster for Battle, Shielded Minibot, and Haunted Creeper). So how does that shift the equalibrium?

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It's kind of pointless to speculate on that, considering we have seen ZERO cards from the new (likely full-sizes) set.

You're kinda pointless to speculate on!

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Also, Mal'Ganis is gone. No more being a turtle.

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Reno Priest? I am intrigued. Decklist?

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So, as a guy who prefers control decks, I've been having most success with this:


It's kind of annoying.

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So, as a guy who prefers control decks, I've been having most success with this:


It's kind of annoying.

What's this do?

It's an aggro-midrange deck. You play powerful minions (Ancient Watcher, Eerie Statue, Fel Reaver) that are cheap because they have downsides, then use a Silence effect to eliminate the downside. It's not uncommon for me to innervate out an Eerie Statue t2, then coin Keeper swing for 7 on t3. Very few decks have answers to creatures that big that early in the game, and sometimes they think that they're safe from Eerie Statue because they played a Muster or whatever, so they don't bother answering. But if they don't answer, they lose. Even if they do answer, they usually still get at least one hit in, which is enough to really pressure an opponent. Often, I only get one hit with the big creatures before the opponent takes them down, but that usually means that they're low enough that I can finish with Druid of the Claw in charge mode, or a half-combo: I'd have to check the stats, but I'm pretty sure that my most common finish is using Wailing Soul/Keeper of the Grove to silence a Statue or Watcher, pound the opponent until he answers, and then Savage Roar on whatever I have left for the reach. I almost never need to rely on getting the full Force of Nature+Savage Roar combo. And with a good draw, you can take down a Secretdin before the Challenger comes out.

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So, as a guy who prefers control decks, I've been having most success with this:


It's kind of annoying.

What's this do?

It's an aggro-midrange deck. You play powerful minions (Ancient Watcher, Eerie Statue, Fel Reaver) that are cheap because they have downsides, then use a Silence effect to eliminate the downside. It's not uncommon for me to innervate out an Eerie Statue t2, then coin Keeper swing for 7 on t3. Very few decks have answers to creatures that big that early in the game, and sometimes they think that they're safe from Eerie Statue because they played a Muster or whatever, so they don't bother answering. But if they don't answer, they lose. Even if they do answer, they usually still get at least one hit in, which is enough to really pressure an opponent. Often, I only get one hit with the big creatures before the opponent takes them down, but that usually means that they're low enough that I can finish with Druid of the Claw in charge mode, or a half-combo: I'd have to check the stats, but I'm pretty sure that my most common finish is using Wailing Soul/Keeper of the Grove to silence a Statue or Watcher, pound the opponent until he answers, and then Savage Roar on whatever I have left for the reach. I almost never need to rely on getting the full Force of Nature+Savage Roar combo. And with a good draw, you can take down a Secretdin before the Challenger comes out.

[Sudo_Nym]

I suppose you could try finding another cheap 8/8. Why do you hate Fel Reaver?

[Sudo_Nym]

In an all out aggro deck like this one, especially one that carries Silence effects, it's not really a downside. The thing about Mill in hearthstone is that it doesn't actually hurt you unless you get to fatigue; Fel Reaver burning the card is the same as not drawing it. And generally, if you're reaching fatigue with this deck, you've lost, regardless of whether Fel Reaver has actually burned anything.

[Sudo_Nym]

Though if you really hate Fel Reaver, you can try playing Ancient Shade once Piloted Shredder rotates out. The problem is that the deck relies on having undercosted beaters, and there aren't enough to play if you don't like Fel Reaver.

[Sudo_Nym]

Is it worth playing secrets in Tempo Mage without Mad Scientist? Mirror Entity is fine, but I don't know if it's really worthwhile if I can't fetch it.

[Sudo_Nym]

I'm trying to limit my speculation because of that, but I think Mad Scientist is singular enough that we can speculate on its removal.

Although I would love to see like a rotating classic sort of thing, where old card sometimes get taken out and cards from old sets get put back in, kinda like MTG has. Be fun to play with old favorites and keep Standard in a bit of flux.

[Sudo_Nym]

I kinda have this weird idea of a Mana Wyrm/Mana Addict deck, with the Mana Addict and more cheap spells to activate it coming in to fill in for the Mad Scientist/Secrets package, but I don't know if it'd be any good.