New Rule: Replace the Word "Lynch" in Games

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Apparently even the people that just want to play mafia can't avoid the spillover from USPOL. At least it's gonna be real easy to quit mafia now.

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Apparently even the people that just want to play mafia can't avoid the spillover from USPOL. At least it's gonna be real easy to quit mafia now.

before I make a judgement, I need to know if this is a it's gonna be real easy to quit mafia now because you can't use lynch or it's gonna be real easy to quit mafia now because people will be complaining they can't use lynch

Both. I want to talk about mafia in mafia games. I'd prefer that be one of the few places I don't have to worry about USPOL or any of the other crazy shit going on right now.

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so you're an idiot, got it

You're gonna have to help me figure out how to give a shit about your opinion here.

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so you're an idiot, got it

You're gonna have to help me figure out how to give a shit about your opinion here.

try giving a shit about marginalised people and how the words you use affect them

I will. I'll do so by not giving power to words that didn't have much in the first place.

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What is the replacement word that I should use?

"Hammer"?

nailed it.

Careful, that word has deep importance to certain religious groups. You have to be careful not to hatespeak.

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so you're an idiot, got it

You're gonna have to help me figure out how to give a shit about your opinion here.

try giving a shit about marginalised people and how the words you use affect them

I will. I'll do so by not giving power to words that didn't have much in the first place.

this is the same argument ppl use to justify using slurs, so I hope you're not going down that path

Most slurs I'm aware of don't have a legitimate utility within a language that has little to nothing to do with any sort of prejudicial or discriminatory views. I'm also not aware of a particularly large sum of slurs, however.

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Most slurs I'm aware of don't have a legitimate utility within a language that has little to nothing to do with any sort of prejudicial or discriminatory views. I'm also not aware of a particularly large sum of slurs, however.

Ah yes, legitimate utility. That's why dropping the word "chink" all over the forum is fine.

No wait, the opposite of that.

I've literally never heard the word "chink" used as anything other than to refer to a flaw in someone's armor. I've lived in six states in all corners of the US and been to >3 countries including circling the globe. When used in that context, no one has a problem with it either. No one, apparently, accept people like you.

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Most slurs I'm aware of don't have a legitimate utility within a language that has little to nothing to do with any sort of prejudicial or discriminatory views. I'm also not aware of a particularly large sum of slurs, however.

Ah yes, legitimate utility. That's why dropping the word "chink" all over the forum is fine.

No wait, the opposite of that.

I've literally never heard the word "chink" used as anything other than to refer to a flaw in someone's armor. I've lived in six states in all corners of the US and been to >3 countries including circling the globe. When used in that context, no one has a problem with it either. No one, apparently, accept people like you.

This reply is so bad I'm quoting it so you can't get away with deleting it later.

Again, you're gonna have to help me find a way to care about your opinion.

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Most slurs I'm aware of don't have a legitimate utility within a language that has little to nothing to do with any sort of prejudicial or discriminatory views. I'm also not aware of a particularly large sum of slurs, however.

Ah yes, legitimate utility. That's why dropping the word "chink" all over the forum is fine.

No wait, the opposite of that.

I've literally never heard the word "chink" used as anything other than to refer to a flaw in someone's armor. I've lived in six states in all corners of the US and been to >3 countries including circling the globe. When used in that context, no one has a problem with it either. No one, apparently, accept people like you.

This reply is so bad I'm quoting it so you can't get away with deleting it later.

Shit I take it back.

I used the wrong "except."

My bad. I actually feel terrible now.

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Enter you just cancelled a game over this thread I'm actually a bit amused.

There are certain toxic mindsets held by people on this site that thankfully keep to politics and the speak easy. I avoid those places and stick to playing mafia (which is the only reason I'm really here anyways) and everything is fine. Once it starts leaking into mafia, however, I'm just not interested in participating.

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I've literally never heard the word "chink" used as anything other than to refer to a flaw in someone's armor.

r u asian

No. But my high school/middle school was ~30% asian.

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For mods: you must use a verb or noun other than "lynch" for your rules and for moderator communications. If it is in your current ruleset, change it.

I'd open an exception for games with direct medieval/Salem flavor.

Or pirates. Or wild west. Turns out "lynching" was used for a lot of things that had nothing to do with race.

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sounds like theres a reason no ones called u a chink before

Turns out I wasn't talking about not being called one. This doesn't explain why I haven't heard anyone say it about my best friends. This doesn't provide any support for the argument that using the word for it's original intended use is in any way prejudiced or discriminatory, which is the original point I was making. Just saying I haven't heard it used as a slur before this site.

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This doesn't explain why I haven't heard anyone say it about my best friends.

allow my family to introduce themselves

I get that people have shitty families. I get that people use slurs. I get that stereotypes are a thing. That sucks. Racism and sexism

suck.

Every view that supports one human being over another is bullshit. But if you make everything about how shit sucks, you're just gonna spend your entire life thinking about how much shit sucks. I'd rather come home from work every day and yell at someone over the internet about how they're misrepresenting my argument and how they have no fucking clue how to do a VCA, than come home from work where everyone is spending all their time talking about how much the world sucks right now, and when I try to relax and get away from it all, I instead get more reminders that the world sucks right now shoved into my face.

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Can we stop having bad faith arguments that just because a word didn't always have racial connotations it means that we can use it freely? It is currently assigned a heavily racial connotation. End of story, doesn't matter that it hasn't always, it matters that it does now and has a history of being used this way.

We all know the noose in the Nascar garage was racial and we all know why and that's why we should be removing it from the site.

The only heavy racial connotation associated with the word "lynch" is the one applied to it by sheltered (largely white) social justice warriors who want to promote some form of change in the world and can't figure out how to do it, so instead of just trying to be good, understanding human beings who try to hold themselves to a high standard and lead by example, they victimize themselves and minorities and put the blame on the way people speak.

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when I try to relax and get away from it all, I instead get more reminders that the world sucks right now shoved into my face.

Yeah...

That's why "lynch" is being replaced.

Because, you know, it serves as such a reminder for some people.

Who?

I guarantee this didn't start because someone said "lynch" offends me. It started because someone on site decided that for someone else because it's easier to put the blame on something easy like a word and solve that for them than it is to accept that sometimes the best you can do about a problem is be a good person and treat people how you'd like to be treated.

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Can we stop having bad faith arguments that just because a word didn't always have racial connotations it means that we can use it freely? It is currently assigned a heavily racial connotation. End of story, doesn't matter that it hasn't always, it matters that it does now and has a history of being used this way.

We all know the noose in the Nascar garage was racial and we all know why and that's why we should be removing it from the site.

The only heavy racial connotation associated with the word "lynch" is the one applied to it by sheltered (largely white) social justice warriors who want to promote some form of change in the world and can't figure out how to do it, so instead of just trying to be good, understanding human beings who try to hold themselves to a high standard and lead by example, they victimize themselves and minorities and put the blame on the way people speak.

The sheltered one is you.

We're gonna have to disagree on that one.

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The amount of people actually, legitimately bent out of shape and to some degree UPSET AND ANGRY about having to use a different word in a forum game because a different word is hurtful to some people is...pathetic to say the absolute least. You'd think half these people were the ones who wrote the standard definition of lynch in the dictionary, the way they are taking something extremely easy, simple, and inconsequential for them to follow so personally.

Man you really hit those scarecrows good.

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on a serious note, Enter
*is this the hill you want to die on
*how much are you thinking about what your last post on this site might be

No. I don't think anyone should die on this hill. I think it's ridiculous that it's come to this discussion in the first place. I doubt I'll die on this hill -- I don't think I've said anything egregious enough for anyone to stab me -- and if I do, it will mean the site's in a place where I'm not losing much anyways. I'm legitimately upset you seem to think this is a shameful stance to take, but I won't support turning forum games into racial, political, or social commentary, nor am I particularly interested in spending any significant amount of time censoring myself because someone might go out of their way to be offended by it.

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Can you direct me to where I suggested any arguments on behalf of anyone else? I suggested that there were some people who were bent out of shape and to some degree angry and upset. I don't believe giving my impression of someone's state of mind quite rises to the level of a scarecrow. I didn't even name anyone, so if you are discussing it without being bent out of shape, angry, or upset...it doesn't apply to you?

Unless you believe I was legitimately suggesting that some people in this thread are motivated solely by their professional attachment to their dictionary work?

I don't think anyone is upset because they can't use the word lynch.

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Enter did you really cancel a game over this?

Yes.

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Can you direct me to where I suggested any arguments on behalf of anyone else? I suggested that there were some people who were bent out of shape and to some degree angry and upset. I don't believe giving my impression of someone's state of mind quite rises to the level of a scarecrow. I didn't even name anyone, so if you are discussing it without being bent out of shape, angry, or upset...it doesn't apply to you?

Unless you believe I was legitimately suggesting that some people in this thread are motivated solely by their professional attachment to their dictionary work?

I don't think anyone is upset because they can't use the word lynch.

Friend, you literally said the phrase "legitimately upset". And have just admitted you cancelled an entire game over being unable to use literally one word. If this is your calm rational engagement on a heavy issue, I'd hate to see you get emotional.

Yes, I used the term "legitimately upset" to describe my condition concerning the reaction of a person I respect to my stance on a topic.

I'm legitimately upset you seem to think this is a shameful stance to take,

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despite not actually answering the questions, this is a clear "yes" to the first question and "no" to the second question
just making sure you're aware

what will follow may seem inevitable but it is simply consequence

Your interpretation of my stance on the matter differs from mine. It would be more accurate to say "yes" to both questions.

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Me, very calmly: "You want me to stop using one word? This is turning every single mafia thread into USPol Part 2. That's it, I'm cancelling my game."

Your grasp of the situation is almost as good as that of Mufasa's.

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If you're intending on banning me, here's a good last post for you:

I'm a member of the site because I enjoy playing mafia and I have friends here. I expect people who are in situations they disagree with to bring up their discontent and if it becomes obvious they are in a situation they cannot change, they should leave such a place. I have lived such behavior when I encountered unfathomably toxic mindsets in the Speakeasy and other parts of the site. It is apparent I am involved in such a situation again, so I will not be a game moderator given the petty censorship of site administration of game moderators. For this reason I intend to moderate no games. It doesn't matter what word or phrase the site decided it's game moderators could not use, and regardless of whether or not I was planning on using it anyways, I won't put myself in situations where I have to deal with people like that.

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Me, very calmly: "You want me to stop using one word? This is turning every single mafia thread into USPol Part 2. That's it, I'm cancelling my game."

Your grasp of the situation is almost as good as that of Mufasa's.

Ok, so explain it to me. Why is this one word so important that you will cancel your entire game over it? Is it, as you say, you see the removal of the word as some blatant political act? If so, do you object to other politically based censorship that routinely occurs in games? Apparently not, those restrictions have been in place for a very long time, LONG before you even joined and you had no difficulty adhering to them. Slurs on the basis of orientation are relatively newly banned, for example. I recall referring to things as "gay" as a way to dismiss it was very vogue during the early years, but surely you wouldn't be able to refer to an argument in a mafia game you find lacking as "gay" now. I don't recall you cancelling any games over that policy stance, but perhaps I missed it.

It seems like your argument can't be "I oppose all politically based censorship" because you don't have any large objection to it otherwise. It seems like your argument is specifically "I oppose censorship on words I like and want to keep using". Which is an understandable position but not a very logical one, so we must conclude it is an emotional one and...here we are.

My argument is "I oppose all politically based censorship," or close enough to it. Your statements as to why it can't be that are invalid given I'm unaware of any preceding site-wide decree from the administration banning the use of any specific word or words. If you'd like to show me a post that serves the same purpose as this one but for a different word, I'll relinquish my point, but given your argument seems to be more of that "people shouldn't use words that hurt other people and risk administrative action for doing so" is a form of censorship, I'd disagree with you.

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If you're intending on banning me, here's a good last post for you:

I'm a member of the site because I enjoy playing mafia and I have friends here. I expect people who are in situations they disagree with to bring up their discontent and if it becomes obvious they are in a situation they cannot change, they should leave such a place. I have lived such behavior when I encountered unfathomably toxic mindsets in the Speakeasy and other parts of the site. It is apparent I am involved in such a situation again, so I will not be a game moderator given the petty censorship of site administration of game moderators. For this reason I intend to moderate no games. It doesn't matter what word or phrase the site decided it's game moderators could not use, and regardless of whether or not I was planning on using it anyways, I won't put myself in situations where I have to deal with people like that.

Literally nobody interacting with you is a mod or has banning power? For someone who is not upset, you sure leap directly from "members criticizing your stance and questioning you" to "IF I MUST BE BANNED, LET THIS BE MY FINAL STATEMENT"

Please, if we're going to continue discussion, at least attempt to read my posts, their context, and understand my standpoints. This is like the third time you've done something like this. My post was in response to Vi who made a relatively ominous post here:

despite not actually answering the questions, this is a clear "yes" to the first question and "no" to the second question
just making sure you're aware

what will follow may seem inevitable but it is simply consequence

I know she has been on the site for a time significantly longer than I and has better relationships with more people, and even if you were going to discount the fact that she seems to hold sway with a large portion of the site and seems like a very nice, reasonable person who a lot of people like and might be able to get administration to see her way if she felt that way on a subject, she definitely knows more about the banning policies of the site moderation team, so a statement like this holds at least a little weight.

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If you're intending on banning me, here's a good last post for you:

I'm a member of the site because I enjoy playing mafia and I have friends here. I expect people who are in situations they disagree with to bring up their discontent and if it becomes obvious they are in a situation they cannot change, they should leave such a place. I have lived such behavior when I encountered unfathomably toxic mindsets in the Speakeasy and other parts of the site. It is apparent I am involved in such a situation again, so I will not be a game moderator given the petty censorship of site administration of game moderators. For this reason I intend to moderate no games. It doesn't matter what word or phrase the site decided it's game moderators could not use, and regardless of whether or not I was planning on using it anyways, I won't put myself in situations where I have to deal with people like that.

You are throwing a hissy fit because you are no longer allowed to use a word with a lot of racist, hurtful history behind it. Honestly says a lot about you.

No, I'm not.

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If you're intending on banning me, here's a good last post for you:

I'm a member of the site because I enjoy playing mafia and I have friends here. I expect people who are in situations they disagree with to bring up their discontent and if it becomes obvious they are in a situation they cannot change, they should leave such a place. I have lived such behavior when I encountered unfathomably toxic mindsets in the Speakeasy and other parts of the site. It is apparent I am involved in such a situation again, so I will not be a game moderator given the petty censorship of site administration of game moderators. For this reason I intend to moderate no games. It doesn't matter what word or phrase the site decided it's game moderators could not use, and regardless of whether or not I was planning on using it anyways, I won't put myself in situations where I have to deal with people like that.

I'll step up to learn how to moderate games in your stead I already moderate games on EM so it shouldn't be too hard here.

Thank you! Sorry I cancelled on you, good luck on the site!

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Ok, so your argument that this being an official and specific decree about the word, rather than the word being banned as part of a general decree about slurs, that makes it a special case worth leaving the site over?

Yes. To be fair, though, I've wanted to leave for a while now, I've stuck around because I like mafia and I have friends there.

However, I'm really not a fan of any of the following.
1. Censorship. Site-wide administration censoring game moderators specifically depriving them the use of a word that has heavy site culture. To be honest, at least part of me is just pissed that someone else thought it was a good idea to tell me what to do here. If the administration had said "Lynch is a word that has heavy racial implications right now, we're asking that game moderators don't use it in games," I'd probably have just moved on with my life. Petty, I know, but that's how I feel and I don't care enough in the other direction to get over it.
2. Precedent. I've felt for a while now that bans were unjustly given out based on a person's politics and how those views contradicted the views of the moderation team, and I've received a warning before because someone took words I said and used them for an alternate meaning. My post obviously did not mean the terms in the way that the person who reported me reported them for being used, but the fact that the word itself was used was what the moderation team was concerned with. I didn't particularly speak up about it at the time of any of such bans since I generally speaking try to avoid politics and other talk like that anyway and I didn't mind the warning, I just avoided the person in question, but I've feared for a while now that it's moving in this direction. Now that the team has declared its intent moving forward is to make its political views the mandatory views held on the site despite whether or not you want any part in the politics whatsoever, I'm not really interested in staying on the site, especially given the fact that the site's views seem to lean to the extreme, and it is ever more difficult to hold a moderate position.

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culture

THIS MEANS NOTHING

SHOULD NEVER MEAN ANYTHING

TO EVER DEFEND A POSITION

IF YOUR CULTURE IS SHIT

CHANGE IT

WE'VE ALWAYS DONE IT

IS NOT A DEFENSE

FUCK

Yeah TBH I only said it because it made my sentence look pretty. I hate site culture, it's pretty darn toxic.

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Yeah TBH I only said it because it made my sentence look pretty. I hate site culture, it's pretty darn toxic.

I've banned you from all my games and didn't allow you to join the dead thread because you're the toxic site culture.

seriously every time I see you post, all you do is get in fights and shit up threads over the most asinine arguments and you need to reflect because when you're getting into fights with everyone, you gotta realize the common factor in all those is you

I'm gonna level with you because I feel like you level with me, but TBH I felt the same way about you. I was hesitant to join your game because I've seen the same from you, and that's part of why I replaced out and didn't touch the dead thread. The difference between you and me is that this site has a tendency to support views like yours to the extreme, so finding people who disagree with you is going to be rarer, and it doesn't help your bias when a lot of those people are banned for having views dissimilar to yours.

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1. Ok, but do you understand how that is an emotional position coming from a place of being upset?

2. This seems to contradict your agreement with my statement though. If you are concerned about your words being taken out of context to mean something you didn't intend, wouldn't a more explicit rule be BETTER to solve that issue? There is no room for error here on what the mod's position on "lynch" is. If they had pursued the method you suggest and folded it into a general rule against bigotry, I suspect you'd be quite perturbed and rightfully so when a mod slide into your inbox to say "Please stop using lynched, it is against site rules against bigotry".

I think the problem is you consider removing the word lynch an extreme position when it is in fact a VERY moderate position, especially in the soft way the mods have decided to enact it. If you truly 100% consider something as minor as this an extreme political position, I think you are probably right this isn't the site for you because you are just completely out of step with the morality of most everyone else here and that is going to be fun for nobody involved.

1. Sure.

2. I'm not particularly concerned with people taking my words out of context. People who take offense where none is intended are not the sort of people I'm particularly interested in spending my time around anyways.

If you think your views are moderate, you're welcome to that stance, I just disagree with you.

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Yeah TBH I only said it because it made my sentence look pretty. I hate site culture, it's pretty darn toxic.

I've banned you from all my games and didn't allow you to join the dead thread because you're the toxic site culture.

seriously every time I see you post, all you do is get in fights and shit up threads over the most asinine arguments and you need to reflect because when you're getting into fights with everyone, you gotta realize the common factor in all those is you

I'm gonna level with you because I feel like you level with me, but TBH I felt the same way about you. I was hesitant to join your game because I've seen the same from you, and that's part of why I replaced out and didn't touch the dead thread. The difference between you and me is that this site has a tendency to support views like yours to the extreme, so finding people who disagree with you is going to be rarer, and it doesn't help your bias when a lot of those people are banned for having views dissimilar to yours.

this is a bad take

and I never gave you access to the dead thread and im glad you're trying to find agency in something you had no literal say in and never brought that point up until I told you to fuck off.

Maybe not, I thought you did, but if you didn't, you didn't. I wouldn't know because I never looked. I never brought the point up because I'm not the sort of person who just starts telling people off every time I have a disagreement with them or I dislike their stance on a matter. Plenty of people have given me loads of opportunity to say some pretty mean ugly things here by saying more personal shit first, and I haven't because I'm trying to be reasonable. If you're gonna take this as me trying to get back at you, whatever, to be honest I don't actually care all that much what your opinion is of me, and it was likely a bad idea to try to talk to you in the first place.

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You're right ythan

I'm not very interested in politics and therefore I shouldn't express my opinion

Mb

Not you you're golden.

she agrees with me >_<

I also agree with you, if that counts for anything.