Micro 662: ArcAngel's Twin Trap Mafia (Ended)

[Kop]

confirm I'm in. Wont be till tomorrow till I can fully post.

[Kop]

Wtf are you on about? Tactical bussing works just fine in micros. If you do it in a larger game, it looks odd when the survivor lasts a long time. In a micro, you only have to run Town for a couple of days.

I don't think tactical bussing is something normally done on day one. And even in smaller setups it doesn't always work.

[Kop]

Shrug. I'm just saying it looks fishy. Until evidence suggests otherwise, they're both my suspects.

It definitely doesn't look Town vs Town, so they both need rope.

So are you saying it's Scum vs Town, or are you implying it could be scum theatre and it's scum vs scum?

Judging this post, your implying it's the latter, if both need rope.

[Kop]

Shrug. I'm just saying it looks fishy. Until evidence suggests otherwise, they're both my suspects.

It definitely doesn't look Town vs Town, so they both need rope.

So are you saying it's Scum vs Town, or are you implying it could be scum theatre and it's scum vs scum?

Judging this post, your implying it's the latter, if both need rope.

It could conceivably be TvS, but the whole argument feels contrived and forced. This implies that one or both are scum. I've been saying this right along, are you not reading?

Yes I am reading, and I have read what you have been saying. I just want to know if it was really what you felt.

Because what your saying is, it doesn't look Town vs Town, and both need rope. Your taking a stance that it's Scum vs Scum.

[Kop]

Kop:

Hey Kop, got any reads yet?

I don't like being ignored

Right now, I haven't got any solid reads in my mind to put forward.

Gut feelings is that Milkshake, Lil Uzi Vert, are town. But that's just gut.

[Kop]

Kop:

Hey Kop, got any reads yet?

I don't like being ignored

Right now, I haven't got any solid reads in my mind to put forward.

Gut feelings is that Milkshake, Lil Uzi Vert, are town. But that's just gut.

Could you try to verbalize those gut reads and maybe re-read and come up with at least one guess for scum?

----------------------

As much as I disagree with milkshake's attitude towards random wagons and apathy, he seems to believe it. To be clear, yes it advances the game to have early wagons. But at some point, you need to develop reads and push them. But I don't see the scum motivation in him pushing this stance, so it's more likely that he genuinely believes what he is saying and is probably town.

How can I explain gut feelings, of those 3 I get gut feelings from the post tone.

I need to reread the entire thread again, I've just come back online and forgot about everything that has happened. It won't be tonight.

[Kop]

Vote misa

Throwing shade and then playing the "caught for the wrong reason" game.

>throwing shade
>admitted inthread that I reworded the post weirdly, allowing for misunderstandings which can happen. in a text-based game
>uh

Admitting things doesn't make them town.

But does it make them scum?

It doesn't, but I've played a lot of mafia and her posts are giving me a lot of gut scum vibes.

Let me try to verbalize it.

Interesting exchange

This is a very empty post, but implies suspicion on at least one, if not both, players. Yet the attack is soft enough that it's easy to either back off or choose a side later. This can mean either "both players are scummy", "one of these players is scummy", or "this may be nothing, but I'm watching it". It's just too easy to decide later what you meant and go with the flow or go with what will seem less scummy. A town player is more likely to...commit may be the wrong word, but at least tell us what they are thinking at that moment. For example, why is it interesting? What does it mean that it's interesting? I get that it's early and people will say this is RVS and doesn't mean anything, but misa saw enough to point it out, so I'd like to know why.

I'm actually reminded of the strategy that scum sometimes use where they vote their scumpartner as a means of distancing

Now we get the "why" and it wouldn't be so scummy on it's own, as wrong as it may be. There were no signs of distancing and it's way too early to expect much, if any, distancing anyway. But the real question is whether misa believes there was distancing, and again, the "why" factor is missing. We don't see why misa sees distancing rather than typical early game banter or even genuine suspicion. There's no effort to determine what is going on. Just more weak implied suspicion for no apparent reason.

I mean.It may mean something but it may mean not; I recognize that LUV's/mine's vote can equally be, uhh, that.

And now that she's been called out, she starts to back off, like I mentioned above. She's now in the mindset of defending herself and forgets all about her attack, if it even was one. A town player would probably still wonder if there is something there as far as the players she thought were distancing where instead of suddenly dropping it when it looks bad on her.

okay thenit's a small, slightly unreliable scumtellthis scumtell kind of depends on yours/tb's flip and the reason why i'm not pursuing it any further (hence my RvS vote) is that i dont like scumhunting before flips, on page frickin one

Then there's the excuse that it was rvs. No. You had a game related reason for making the vote. It may have been weak, but it wasn't rvs. But she chooses to discredit herself completely rather than describe more about what she saw that may have come from scum.

I  just realized people from here scumread uncertainty

whelp

First of all, no, it's not the uncertainty. It's the lack of anything backing suspicion that makes it feel more like an attempt to make people seem scummy than genuine suspicion. Second of all, this shows that defensive mentality again. It's "how do I seem to everyone else?", not "who is scum?".

Also notice, that misa's posts have been entirely defensive since she was questioned about her distancing comment. Not one post after that is scumhunting. It's just her trying to explain herself, which yes I understand she needs to do, but it's not a substitute for scumhunting at the same time

I see some of these points, and do agree to an extent. However the only thing I disagree with, is the fact that it's RVS, not all of what you said, I don't think they would make it that boldly obvious that is what is really going on in page one straight away. I expect distancing in the game, but I don't think doing it during RVS with it all being random to be taken seriously.

However I wouldn't rule it completely out that you may have a point about it all.

I just understand my own feelings that during RVS nothing can be substantially be taken seriously, and that's why I feel trying to force distance is something scum wouldn't do during this stage.

Arnold mentioned Pine's comment that the exchange between MisaTange and Sleepless Assassin was "not town vs. town." I might as well note that I also didn't like Pine's comment. But I don't have any solid reads at this point.

I think the best stance at this point in the game is pro-lynching-anyone. The numbers back this up too. I think this strategy will serve the town well:

1. Bring someone to L-1
2. Listen to what they have to say
3. Someone hammers or someone doesn't. If the latter, repeat these steps.

I can see the good in this idea, but I also see the bad. I'd change around the words in point number one to bringing the highest scum read to L-1 not just someone. Bringing someone brings point number 2 to role claiming in aid to survive, and having roleclaims out just because you wanted someone at L-1 to hear what they had to say, is really not a good idea. But I do see the good side because it shows players mentalities and gets them talking when votes are on them.

Pine, I think I almost have successfully communicated my analysis to you. Just one detail is missing, and you have basically provided it yourself in your post. You said that when scum is the driving force for a wagon, it isn't random. This is correct, and this is why the town needs a random source for the wagon. It is also why I chose the Sleepless Assassin wagon which MisaTange started. It was the only wagon to have accumulated more than one vote at the time (it still is), and it was started for a sufficiently random reason.

I can see what you are saying, and I do agree with it. But wouldn't scum not try to drive wagons, but rather join them to push them?

[Kop]

It's Day 1. Why are we even talking about teams and partners. We should be lynching the person most likely to be scum and figuring out the rest later.

Even putting that aside though...

Teams are pretty hard to figure out when we have people who haven't made a meaningful contribution yet.

I agree with this.

Even if everyone had contributed, talking about teams on day one without flip shouldn't really be thrown around. Get a flip and if the person flips scum, then you can talk about possible teams.

[Kop]

Yup. So anyway I don't think Kop is necessarily scum. But I'd be happy to policy lynch him if he continues to refuse to vote.

Right now the player with the most votes is Sleepless Assassin with three, and the second is me with two. So, everyone should vote Sleepless Assassin. Or me if Sleepless Assassin is your scum buddy. (That last part being partially facetious... partially!)

VOTE: Milkshake

Why are we talking about policy lynches? PL don't gain anything other than an easy wagon driven or mostly driven by scum as it's a easy cop out without generating a case. I'm sure this is what you were hinting at earlier in the game.

[Kop]

VOTE: Kop

I realized if we kill Pine, this game might be even more stale.

Does that make him town though????

Or ah, scum for that matter.

@arnold you still haven't explained your vote. Was the vote against Kop a way of putting on pressure or was there some other reason?

I'm pretty sure there's scum in the inactive bunch. Might as well be Kop

Might as well not be then. That vote is just a slam it anywhere vote that doesn't have any valid argument on.

Anything else to input or are you still tired?

[Kop]

UNVOTE:

Seriously struggling to get into this game.

@Kop: Why the OMGUS vote? No one was discussing policy lynching at a length that required such a reaction.

I feel that it being mentioned he is keeping cards there that can be played when the time comes. It's not a normal town mentality to even mention a policy lynch, especially this early because it just tells me that if he can't maintain a wagon he needs a fall back that he feels he could drive without much resistance.

Or maybe I am over reacting. A little.

[Kop]

Ok, I will join the Kop wagon.

VOTE: Kop

This will help things happen I think.

My heart wants Pine to be scum, because his play is based on such incorrect understanding of the game from my viewpoint, but I think that just because he disagrees with me doesn't make him scum. However he does seem to think I am scum, ha. I do think there's a chance he's scum, but anyway there's no votes on Pine. So it's a moot point.

There's no votes on Pine so you won't go there, but you won't make a strong enough case and actually vote for him?

[Kop]

Minimum word count requirement reached. Player is town.

I actually read it.

And it took you all of 2 minutes to read that and come to that conclusion? How so quick?

[Kop]

No lynching is empirically bad for Town. Stop it. Go home to whatever idiot site you learned badlogic from.

Nah, no lynching isn't as bad as people make out. I fully understand the problems that come along with it, but it also comes with some slight advantages. However, it's not always the case and doesn't particularly move the game forward.

In a game that isn't massively active, it's going to just stale the game up even more than it is, so I do agree with your statement for this instance. In other games where it has too many leads that you could go down, but no town compromise a no lynch isn't a bad option, if you have roles that can narrow pools down and you lose less town over night.

I've played in a game where we no lynched twice, and town still won. It didn't detriment the game in any way that is being made out.

[Kop]

@Pine please vote for someone. Lil uzi hasn't voted for anyone. And am not sure we can get a replacement before the day ends.

I think Lil voted for Sleepless Assassin.

[Kop]

VOTE: Arnold

I haven't seen anything resembling productivity from this guy, and singleminded focus on a nearly-absent player without other scumhunting strikes me as suspicious.

My focus was on you but nobody seems to want to lynch you sadly. Nice try though ik

You haven't tried hard enough, you've harped on a few times that you would like to lynch Pine, but won't make your points clear for a case. Saying it without any substance isn't going to help gain backing.

I can make 10 posts saying can we lynch Arnold, I'd like to lynch Arnold, Have we not lynched Arnold yet, do you honestly believe anyone is going to take me seriously?

[Kop]

Ugh no

But I'm sure he has a

REALLY

good case!

My case is if I don't get to lynch Pine I will settle for Kop.

You believe you won't get to lynch pine, let me be clear, your case isn't good enough.

VOTE: Arnold

[Kop]

I fear we may have a mod abandoned game here

She hasn't been on since Sunday

[Kop]

Kop is scum and the reason we lynched Arnold was because Kop and his buddy didn't want to lynch Kop. I doubted myself at the end of day 1 foolishly. Kop is a member of the mafia!

VOTE: Kop

Absolutely, categorically, wrong.

If you believe that, why did you choose to vote for Arnold based on a read? This read obviously meant something, not the fact that you chose to go there purely because it was a bandwagon.

The doubted part of your post is basically trying to admit you were wrong but at the same time covering your back.

[Kop]

It was stupid. I thought Arnold wasn't interested in posting that much, because was scum. Whereas Kop seemed more passionate because posts were the only way for him to win. Fortunately it probably didn't affect anything. (Probably).

Anyway, Kop is definitely scum. Why are we still scum hunting based on non-reasons. It's highly possible that Kop's wagon petered out because of the influence of scum. Our best play is to vote Kop.

Or it could have petered out because scum couldn't drive it. Scum like to go for low hanging fruit and slots that won't have much repercussions on them, simply because they can brush it off and say well he wasn't interested in posting that much, because was scum.