Micro 442: Twin Trap Game Over

[Lalendra]

/confirm

Hi all!

[Lalendra]

VOTE: Zymf

Because your avatar makes me supremely uncomfortable.

[Lalendra]

And also because there should be vowels in your name.

[Lalendra]

It might sound wierd, but I can actually explain that xD!

Random voting isn't 100 % random. The townies doesn't know who they are voting on, but the mafia does!
Therefore, we can allready after day 1 start to work out who is supporting who... unless of course the mafia vote for themself.

Whenever you place a vote, you are not "just" voting for that player, you also declare war/hostility.
When 2 players both vote on eachoter, it's like double-hostility, and we can't really use that for much..
However, it could be a sign of 2 mafia trying to act as if they are REALLY hostile against eachother and therefore surely not on the same team.

You catch my drift or is my line of thinking just waaaay to wierd and complicated ?

I think hostility might be too strong of a word, I don't know if people generally read that much into RVS votes as a rule. There is, of course, a point where we come out of the RVS stage and the real interactions begin, but that line is generally perceived differently by different people. (i.e. one person might think we are outside of RVS, while someone else might still be seeing the votes that are being made as joke/RVS votes.)

[Lalendra]

I don't know if I would consider 33 and 36 to be fluff, it's a legitimate topic of discussion. RVS votes can lead to different outcomes depending on who is interpreting them, and the responses to this type of discussion can sometimes be telling.

[Lalendra]

I don't know if I would consider 33 and 36 to be fluff, it's a legitimate topic of discussion. RVS votes can lead to different outcomes depending on who is interpreting them, and the responses to this type of discussion can sometimes be telling.

Whos scum

I said it CAN be telling. Unfortunately we didn't really get anything out of it this time because there were only two posts on it.

[Lalendra]

As town, you're voting for literally the only person in the game who you know isn't scum (yourself). Sort of the definition of anti-town.

VOTE: Grib

[Lalendra]

I have a question.

Why did everyone ignore my self-vote until Aronis pointed it out?

Actually,

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lalendra

for ignoring me and then hopping on my wagon.

I ignored it at first because my gut reaction was "ah ha, self-vote in RVS, cheeky and cute." When Aronis seemed pretty convinced that it was not a protown move, I decided to do a bit more digging, as I am fairly new to mafia and always intrigued by the opinions of more experienced players. It turns out that the general consensus of self-voting is that it is not, in fact, a good reaction test, or even a good RVS move, since (as I pointed out) you are literally voting for the ONLY player in the game of whose alignment you can be sure. It is scummy (at worst) or anti-town (at best), which is why I placed my vote on you at that time. That being said, I feel that it is a weak tell (bad play =/= scummy play), so I am willing to change my vote if/when someone else does something that pings my scumdar harder.

[Lalendra]

I don't know if I would consider 33 and 36 to be fluff, it's a legitimate topic of discussion. RVS votes can lead to different outcomes depending on who is interpreting them, and the responses to this type of discussion can sometimes be telling.

Whos scum

I said it CAN be telling. Unfortunately we didn't really get anything out of it this time because there were only two posts on it.

Regardless of RVS I want reads. I don't care how preliminary they are.

That was pretty much my point. This is why this sort of discussion isn't fluff, because it aids in the process of developing preliminary reads.

[Lalendra]

Yeah the ones you're refusing to tell me about

Unfortunately we didn't really get anything out of it this time because there were only two posts on it.

I didn't get reads, which is why I didn't answer your "who's scum?" question.

VOTE: Zymf for the lie Aronis just caught him in that Aronis mentioned in 79

Yeahhh, this is a much bigger deal than the self-vote. I was wondering when/if Zymf would respond to that. I'm glad it came up again, though, because I'm not any more satisfied with the response this time around. That, combined with the mix-up in who he was voting for/who was voting for him gives me a pretty solid scumread on him.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Zymf

[Lalendra]

Pls don't lynch me guys! I really didn't notice that Grib was self-voting before Aronis pointed it out.. It is day 1 right now, so I mostly just skim through the posts, just like I did when I missread the postcount.

I...really? Your response to L-1 is "Pls don't lynch me guys!"? I'm going to need...well, something at least...if you're going to convince me you're not scum.

I am not going to reveal my role yet... Goodnight, I'll be gone for about 8 hours.

Out of curiosity, why are you refusing to claim? And why peace out without ANY sort of defense?

[Lalendra]

See sig.

Can you elaborate on your reasoning? He was given the opportunity to claim, and chose not to. Why do you have a PL for this?

[Lalendra]

Holy Aronis spam. At this point I'd like to hammer him just so he stops talking.

I don't like Lalendra for the same reasons, regarding Grib's self vote. I also feel like a lot of her posts are filler try-hard nonsense. More specifically, her supposed reaction to the self-vote speaks volumes:

I ignored it at first because my gut reaction was "ah ha, self-vote in RVS, cheeky and cute." When Aronis seemed pretty convinced that it was not a protown move, I decided to do a bit more digging

My questions, really, are
1) why she thought it was so "cheeky and cute" but then ignored it? Honestly, the reaction seems to me like scum going "OH LOOK, A TRAP."

2) Why following Aronis seemed like a good idea over, say, following anyone else at the time? What kind of gravitas does Aronis have for her? It seems a bit inappropriate. She's self-admittedly new to mafia and to the site, which means she can't have had THAT many games with Aronis to have gained that kind of willingness to sheep a case out of nowhere. There were other threads being laid down at the time, but that was the one she picked up - on Aronis' lead.

Legit, I thought it was a silly RVS vote. Then, because Aronis pointed out that it is almost 100% antitown, I started doing some research. I read several posts/articles, all of which were in agreement that it is not a protown move to self-vote during RVS. If you dislike my reasoning, so be it, but I came to that vote after doing some genuine research, and Aronis was simply the catalyst.

So Lalendra seems pretty town atm. Grib's reaction was alright by me, so wouldn't be too surprised if he was town either. Unsure about the others atm.

With the above post, if Aronis flips scum, I believe we have the other in Lalendra.

Nope - sorry, but I'm not your scum. Aronis has essentially admitted that he is, though.

Goddammit.

Lol. Whatever.

Tracked you last night big boy. And you visited the deceased.

VOTE: Aronis

Well done!

Why are you accepting this at face value without even a hint of suspicion? How do we know Kaboose is telling the truth?

So I'm going to shoot Lalendra tonight. If y'all let me live.

Ok, so you are simply admitting you're scum. Why exactly are we not supposed to hammer him, again?

I'd be willing to bet that scum weren't on the same wagon. Mostly because of the quick hammer.

If you don't have anything useful to say just don't say it.

Says the poster of 4 pages of fluff.

See sig.

Can you elaborate on your reasoning? He was given the opportunity to claim, and chose not to. Why do you have a PL for this?

9/10 times it's scum.

I added it after 3 games in a row, scum didn't get lynched after hammering without a claim.

Aronis must be the Watch-Immune Goon. Which makes a lot of sense considering they thought Flubber was tracker.

Lal is probably scum, yeah.

That's fair, as long as the PL is based on something I'm okay with it - particularly if the record is 3/3. I'm completely okay with killing off Aronis, but will wait until we hear from some other people first, as there are some who haven't contributed yet.

[Lalendra]

To clarify my remarks re: 104 - Aronis is obviously scum, that much is sure, but I don't think I've ever seen someone just accept a PR claim without at least a little poking and prodding to be sure that it's legit.

[Lalendra]

Is that a real question?

He would have been counterclaimed and we'd lynch him and Aronis and win the game.

Except that the three of us are pretty much the only ones talking.

[Lalendra]

So I can't find the person who posted about anyone who hammered Aronis without letting the others post, because there's too much goddamn Aronis noise. Out of curiosity, I understand that you want the others to have a chance to chime in here, but Aronis is confscum - why would anyone who lynched him be scum?

[Lalendra]

Sorry, hammered, not lynched.

[Lalendra]

Is that a real question?

He would have been counterclaimed and we'd lynch him and Aronis and win the game.

Except that the three of us are pretty much the only ones talking.

Everyone has posted at least once since Kaboose's claim.

So we're ok to hammer Aronis now?

[Lalendra]

If it wasn't clear, ITH Aronis.

[Lalendra]

Yes! But plz state intent first.

Pedit: What does that mean?

I intend to be the hammer vote. I intend to be the last vote required to strike you dead.

And I can just wait for someone else to vote you and hammer you then.

[Lalendra]

Pagetop?

[Lalendra]

Damn.

[Lalendra]

Yes, if you vote yourself I will hammer you.

[Lalendra]

VOTE: Aronis

[Lalendra]

I agree that if Aronis is scum, Lalendra is his partner.

Don't remember seeing any real reasoning for this, just buddying up and looking for town points.

So you can self-hammer?

I don't think so. I'm not ready to see you go.

Because he was your scumbuddy.

Is that a real question?

He would have been counterclaimed and we'd lynch him and Aronis and win the game.

Except that the three of us are pretty much the only ones talking.

Everyone has posted at least once since Kaboose's claim.

And yet you chose not to hammer Aronis.

We can speedlynch Lalendra toMorrow.

gg no re

You want to speedlynch me because I hammered Aronis, who flipped scum?

VOTE: Grib

[Lalendra]

/me laughs

Hammering outed scum gives you precisely 0 towncred, especially when you were asked not to do so.

VOTE: Lalendra

Next time, don't sheep your partner so blatantly.

Not sheeping my partner since I'm not scum. Just scumhunting and playing to my wincon.

Ok.

Two questions for Lalendra
1. Why did you hammer before more conversation was had? Aronis's lynch was a sure thing.
2. In post 252, you questioned why no one would believe Kaboose. This is of course prior to his flip from last night but what reason did you have at the time to NOT believe Kaboose after that post?

1. He wanted to be hammered. It was clear he was scum. There was literally no reason to keep him alive, why not just finish him off and proceed through the rest of the game? The sooner we lynch the sure scum, the sooner we can proceed with finding the other one. There also wasn't any conversation happening - as Grib pointed out, each of the people we were supposedly waiting for had already posted; again, no reason to wait.
2. I am always skeptical of any claim. It seemed odd to me that anyone would just automatically believe a town PR claim without waiting for a counterclaim, or asking any questions. Kaboose was obviously telling the truth, as evidenced by the fact that Aronis all but admitted that he was scum (an argument could be made he was actually playing against his wincon with the way he played but w/e), and that coupled with the lack of a counterclaim made me believe him.

[Lalendra]

This is the game setup as far as I see it. Red = dead.

1 Track-Immune Mafia Goon - Grib
1 Watch-Immune Mafia Goon –

Aronis

1 Watcher –

Flubbernugget

1 Tracker –

Kaboose

5 Vanilla Townies –

Zymf

, Lalendra, BBmolla, Fresh, Benice

[Lalendra]

There was literally no reason to keep him alive, why not just finish him off and proceed through the rest of the game?

alright. I will try to get back on here later but it likely will not be until tomorrow.

DO NOT END THE DAY UNTIL THEN AT LEAST PLEASE

I think we can squeeze his partner out of the day and that will be game.

Just because I don't agree with other VT doesn't make me scum. There is no reason not to lynch confscum, particularly one who was spamming and making it more difficult to sift through and find actual content. If you want to call it scummy to not follow the "instructions" of another VT, let's talk about how Benice also asked that we not talk to confscum in 124, but you chose to ignore that as well - does that make you scum? (Spoiler alert: you're scum, but that's not why.) As far as I'm concerned, we DID find the other scum from Aronis' interactions during that day - you.

Lalendra, let's play pretend for a moment.

Do you have any suspicions outside of me?

No.

The only other person I could potentially suspect would be Benice, for trying to delay the lynch, but I am quite sure you're scum and Benice was just being careful.

How about you? Do you have any scumreads besides me?

So I can't find the person who posted about anyone who hammered Aronis without letting the others post, because there's too much goddamn Aronis noise. Out of curiosity, I understand that you want the others to have a chance to chime in here, but Aronis is confscum - why would anyone who lynched him be scum?

Hey, other Vanilla Townies.

Try to read this and tell me with a straight face Lalendra isn't obvious scum.

Tell me with a straight face why this makes me obvscum.
Speaking of the other VTs, it would be great to hear from them for a change.

[Lalendra]

Just because I don't agree with other VT doesn't make me scum. There is no reason not to lynch confscum, particularly one who was spamming and making it more difficult to sift through and find actual content. If you want to call it scummy to not follow the "instructions" of another VT, let's talk about how Benice also asked that we not talk to confscum in 124, but you chose to ignore that as well - does that make you scum? (Spoiler alert: you're scum, but that's not why.) As far as I'm concerned, we DID find the other scum from Aronis' interactions during that day - you.

1) You seem very, very sure Benice is VT. It's almost like you

know

he is.
2) I talked to Aronis because I like him.
3) You think scum!Aronis would repeatedly and deliberately engage his other scumbuddy during his trolling? Are you sure?

Aronis clearly wasn't super invested in convincing anyone he wasn't scum, since he admitted it. So yeah, I don't really think it's that far out of the realm of possibility that he wasn't being extra careful about not outing his scumbuddy.

No.

The only other person I could potentially suspect would be Benice, for trying to delay the lynch, but I am quite sure you're scum and Benice was just being careful.

How about you? Do you have any scumreads besides me?

Well, that's odd, considering how many times you've just surely called him VT.

Funny enough, Benice's massive townread on me felt like buddying him and I'd consider going after him if you somehow flip town. But since you confirmed for me that he's Vanilla and you're scum, I don't think that'll be necessary.

I'll be sure to check and see if you follow up on this, if you manage to succeed in lynching me. Also, as I said, I am sure that you are scum and BBmolla is VT. You asked if I had any scumreads other than you, so maybe I should have been more clear - the only other person that I might suspect, if you somehow flipped town, would be him, since he tried to delay confscum lynch. But you won't flip town, so that doesn't matter.

Tell me with a straight face why this makes me obvscum.
Speaking of the other VTs, it would be great to hear from them for a change.

You point-blank asking why scum would hammer their outed buddy? You desperately trying to reap any towncred you can from hammering Aronis because "scum would never hammer their buddy"? Yeah, that's not scummy at all.

Of course scum would hammer their outed buddy for towncred. Town would also hammer confscum to play to their wincon, which is what I did. You can construct whatever narrative you want, but that's what happened.

[Lalendra]

Sorry, when I said BBmolla in the above post I meant Benice. I was thinking BBmolla because I also meant to ask him -

@BBmolla, why the naked vote on me? Not even going to put effort into explaining your reasoning, just sheeping scum!Grib?

[Lalendra]

3) You think scum!Aronis would repeatedly and deliberately engage his other scumbuddy during his trolling? Are you sure?

He also engaged me, which (unless you choose to ignore it because it's inconvenient) is a fact which goes against your scum!Lalendra theory.

[Lalendra]

Lalendra, look. Your buddy got caught, and you associated yourself with him too much. On top of that, you're pushing some pretty scummy points. Even if you somehow managed to get me mislynched, there is no way in hell you wouldn't immediately get roped toMorrow.

This game is over.

I really hope this game is over after this

Spoiler alert: It won't be. I'll just be silently gloating when I'm vindicated.

[Lalendra]

1. He wanted to be hammered. It was clear he was scum. There was literally no reason to keep him alive, why not just finish him off and proceed through the rest of the game? The sooner we lynch the sure scum, the sooner we can proceed with finding the other one. There also wasn't any conversation happening - as Grib pointed out, each of the people we were supposedly waiting for had already posted; again, no reason to wait.
2. I am always skeptical of any claim. It seemed odd to me that anyone would just automatically believe a town PR claim without waiting for a counterclaim, or asking any questions. Kaboose was obviously telling the truth, as evidenced by the fact that Aronis all but admitted that he was scum (an argument could be made he was actually playing against his wincon with the way he played but w/e), and that coupled with the lack of a counterclaim made me believe him.

1. Despite Aronis spamming the thread, there could have been conversation. I for one was moving house as I posted and never got the chance to contribute to the discussion.

2. This is the big one. Kaboose had a PR. You wanna protect the PRs. Now he outed being a tracker which if I understand this mechanic correctly means he nailed the watcher scum (this of course was not confirmed until after the lynch but that's what I believe). Thus his PR was useless after the watch-immune was nailed. Ultimately there's no reason to out that kind of info unless its true because you're making a big gamble doing it. And to your part about waiting for the counterclaim, there was time supposed to be allowed for it...but someone hammered.

Intent to hammer on my end. But will give benice the chance to post first.

These are good points, and I still have a townread on you despite you wanting to lynch me. So, I implore you, if I get mislynched today, make sure Grib dies.