Micro 377: Vengeballs. OVER!!!

[Skelda]

/confirm

[Skelda]

Hello there peoples.

So basically I've been thinking about this setup and, since every kill in this game is town-controlled, what is the point of any of us ever vengekilling? Wouldn't it be better to lynch so we gain info and if the person being lynched is a godfather, their teammates die? Or do people just enjoy their bursts of power?

At worst, we could just all make an agreement to lynch the person who would've been vengekilled next, if that makes sense. Since lynching has no drawbacks and vengekilling does.

[Skelda]

Well, if we are just organized and avoid freak hammers and stuff, it could still work. But yeah, I do see your point. People can be obnoxious.

[Skelda]

If enough people disagree with a venge-kill, it simply won't happen.

What if we got the majority to agree before we vengekilled or didn't if we had enough people?

[Skelda]

That's what I'm proposing.

[Skelda]

yeah as far as you go, you didn't RVS vote, so you earn a scum read

and no, voting everyone then unvoting isn't an RVS vote

It's no more helpful than anything else in RVS. Who are you to say what can and can't be put in a period of random voting?

[Skelda]

Well, if we are just organized and avoid freak hammers and stuff, it could still work. But yeah, I do see your point.

People can be obnoxious

.

It would make even more sense for you to say that if you were indeed a goat.

Assuming you are town, would you have proposed this plan as scum and why?

I for one like the bare odds of a successful vengekill and I trust that the one who eats rope has the best perspective to evaluate how legitimately it came to being. Also, I'm a good day 1 scumhunter and I will deliver a scumfuck if you mislynch me.

Would I have proposed this plan? Probably. It was what I thought about when I first discovered this setup and so I already had thought of it before I got my alignment. So I might suggest it as scum just to try to act like Town-Skelda would, if that makes sense. I'm pretty sure there is no scum advantage to this plan. I just try to do things that I would if I were town as scum regardless of whether or not they directly benefit my game. And with this it is just setup speculation, so it definitely wouldn't hurt or help a scum game very much. It is obvious that you people aren't going through with it.

[Skelda]

from just a baseline, there's a 50-50 chance that Espresso is scum. this alone strengthens my read considerably

Shouldn't that just increase the likelihood that everyone is scum? I get that you see a suspicious player and think that since there are so many scum, you can just pick one and lynch them. But it doesn't make one player any more likely than another, and it seems like you are jumping the gun on this one.

[Skelda]

One thing more, pants: you were also wrong about my being scum in those two games I was town. If you're so sure you can use both of those games as evidence against me, why have you not considered this?

Has anyone ever told you the definition of insanity?

Ooo, that's certainly a little twisty, isn't it? I was Town the last two times and you thought I was scum, so obviously I'm scum this time. Your alignment there has no relevance here though, and supposedly he is reading you as scum for different reasons. I think that actually increases the chances of Espresso-scum for me.

[Skelda]

Edit: obviously I'm NOT scum this time

[Skelda]

no, but you straight up lied
in 2 previous games, I ended up getting a correct read on you before the end of the first day
in the last game, i even stopped you from getting mislynched
so your suggestion that I'm bad at reading you is incorrect

You are grabbing strings and running with them. "Straight up lied" is such a gross exaggeration to make him sound way worse than he really is. He may have been slightly mistaken, but he wasn't lying. Scum would have no motive to completely fabricate evidence against you, anyway.

[Skelda]

Optimal play for scum is to bully people into voting for who they want.

If they can do that without fear of repercussion because they have succeeded in manipulating town into thinking they wouldn't be aggressive that's just dandy for scum.

Optimal play for town is to put scum into a corner and force scummy mistakes. You haven't been doing that despite talking more than the average player so I'm still voting you

VOTE: NakedJogger looks about right.

[Skelda]

I don't know how scum would play in a game like this.
I've played some multi-team games, so the theory is actually the same.
The addition of a vengeball is getting you people to off topic.

Okay, let's say there is a blue mafia and a red mafia member.
They both read each other as scum, and since they know their teammate, they know that person is on the other mafia team.
When I played as scum in a two mafia game, in which we had daytalk (a standard rule), we strategized that we would pick off townies.
Because with 5 vs 4, including the vengeball, the townies would be the most dangerous players.

I guarantee you that mafia are not hunting each other. They are hunting townies.
Right now, it is 5 vs 4. As it should be. Regardless of color or affiliation, there are 4 scum.
They're thinking the same thing. There are 5 townies.
Once we are eliminated, the mafia would then proceed to fight each other.

That is overall the best way to win as scum, and the best way to fight as town.
If the game is played with 5 townies, two red mafia, and two blue mafia, then town will win EVERY time.
Unless......... scum act as one team until town is out of the picture.

I've seen this play out, and all the theories of what scum would do have sounded quite unrealistic so far.
Whomever said "scum would hunt each other" has an FOS. I'll have to look back.
The above comment is something scum would say.

Conclusion:

We need to keep some sectarian violence between the red and blue team.
If they discover each other, then they will cooperate to take us out, and fight 2 vs 2 later on in the game.
Town loses if scum read each other. I'm going to make a hell of a suggestion:

How about we only share scum reads if we're specifically asked?

Letting scum know their future enemy, and current ally, is the WORST possible thing we can do.

Okay, first of all, you are Town.

Second of all, 2 vs 2 scum would lead to a draw, which is hardly optimal for scum. And since their primary goal is to not get lynched, scum probably will settle on any lynch that isn't them. It is a whole lot easier to lynch someone who you think has a chance of being scum than someone you have a strong town read on. If scum could choose the alignment of everyone they help to lynch, then yes, they probably would choose town. But they aren't going to be heartbroken if they hit other scum
either.

[Skelda]

Oh and another thing, I think regardless of what truly is optimal scum play, we definitely shouldn't be convincing scum to gang up on the town and settle for a draw. That is the worst thing possible for us.

[Skelda]

The above comment is something scum would say.

It's the naked truth. Why do you say it's scummy?

And do you seriously suggest we should stfu about our scumreads like scared little lambs? You've just layed bare your insanity. Your proposition is stripped of rationale. Nude madness! Unless of course you're overeager scum caught with his pants down. Have you just unveiled your scummy penis?!

More info is needed to unveil what's going on with you, sir.

I definitely am sharing my scumreads, I agree about that. But I do not think he'd dare suggest that as scum. I am really happy with my vote on you.

[Skelda]

VOTE: ZZZX

Eww. Scum alert!

[Skelda]

NakedJogger is at L-2 already. I don't know that ZZZX is scum, but I think someone who has been quiet is. Possibly him, though I actually lean town on his slot.

[Skelda]

That vote was scummy because as soon as the slightest mention of ZZZx being suspicious came up, you started running with that. With how active ZZZx has been, I don't think anyone should have a strong read on him. That isn't a unique read, it was an excuse to get on a wagon you'd hoped was taking off.

As for Pants, I don't know. He could go either way for me. If he is scum, I definitely see him as a Goon though, so I don't think I plan on pushing his lynch, at least not today.

[Skelda]

As for Pants, I don't know. He could go either way for me. If he is scum, I definitely see him as a Goon though, so I don't think I plan on pushing his lynch, at least not today.

eh what
so i could be scum, but you arent going to hunt me because if im scum im a goon? how does that make any sense?

Isn't it preferable to lynch Godfathers over Goon? I mean obviously any scum is preferable to Town, but I'd rather get a Godfather if possible. But I don't have a confident read on you either way, so it doesn't matter. I find you a bit annoying, which I always want to translate into suspicious. Clearly that isn't always accurate though.

[Skelda]

And how exactly are you gonna separate your scumreads into Godfather and Goon categories? Do you think the Godfather will be more careful in his play?

Depends on the person. Some people are loud and obnoxious no matter what, which might be the case with Pants here.

[Skelda]

having a "goon" read is stupid

if you think someone is scum, you should lynch them. you have no way to know whether or not they are a godfather, and trying to hunt for the godfather instead means town is looking for 2 players instead of 4. its bad strategy.

I never claimed to have a Goon read on you! I said you could go either way. I don't want to lynch you over Naked regardless.

[Skelda]

Quick theory question. Since lynching the godfather eliminates the goon, and town will eventually have to lynch the godfather (who brings the goon down with him), I would say goon reads shouldn't be lynched.
It seems like that would just be a fools errand.

It is a mafia phenomenon. His scum meta is to be inactive.

What is his Town meta?

[Skelda]

Quick theory question. Since lynching the godfather eliminates the goon, and town will eventually have to lynch the godfather (who brings the goon down with him), I would say goon reads shouldn't be lynched.
It seems like that would just be a fools errand.

It is a mafia phenomenon. His scum meta is to be inactive.

What is his Town meta?

I think he was scum in all the games I watched him play.
His town meta is unbeknownst, but I have a HUGE scum vibe.
He'll talk more strategy than scum hunting, and will lurk a lot.

How do you know he isn't always like that?

I'm fine with him dying. If he winds up doing that he probably will get shot eventually.

[Skelda]

And how exactly are you gonna separate your scumreads into Godfather and Goon categories? Do you think the Godfather will be more careful in his play?

Depends on the person. Some people are loud and obnoxious no matter what, which might be the case with Pants here.

This is the case with me. I am physically unable to not be loud when I play.

now, yes it is better for godfathers to get lynched. but the best way to do this is to hunt scum normally, and hope your scum read flips godfather. if they flip goon, thats still better than a town lynch.

its like your saying "i cant scum hunt for just anyone, i gotta make sure i lynch the scum PR!" in a game where such a statement would fit the setup. its a bad way to scum hunt

Before I joined this I read a few previous games and a lot of times the people who seemed like obv-scum to me were Goons and would be very blatantly scummy, especially when their Godfather was close to lynch. If it comes down to a practically conf-scum who is probably a Goon and a fairly scummy player who has a fair chance of being Godfather, who would you lynch?

[Skelda]

I've played with bullish where he was scum and quite active. I honestly feel his inactivity here is potentually a scum indicator as people will try to mix things up. But it's not strong.

I feel skelda is scum. His play here feels exactly like his play when he was a scum buddy.

I am still very much disliking csareo and pants. Pants for his lynch vengekill strategy which doesn't fit town for me and csareo is mostly gut.

I agree with you on the activity thing, but I think an eye should be kept on Bull regardless.

Okay, so I don't remember this game you keep referencing at all. I recognize your name, but that is about it. What game was it we played together? Can you link me or something? Whatever it is you are picking up on is either imagined or just because I am the same person.

I think Pants' strategy is ridiculous, but for me it is a Towntell. When people suggest ridiculous strategies, I tend to find that Townie because scum usually don't like to draw that kind of attention to themselves. Ironically I am townreading Csareo for a similar reason.

What do you think of NakedJogger, aphix?

[Skelda]

UNVOTE: Dr Pants
Alright,
so we're all vengeful townies, there's absolutely no point in keeping the head down or playing slightly scummy as to not get capped as PR.

Therefore ZZZX has no excuse for his play. I want to hear everyone's excuse for not voting him.

Well, why aren't you voting him?

Hahaha. Good point.

[Skelda]

the fact that we haven't heard anything really from clusk and ZZZX makes me worry, especially ZZZX.

my scum reads currently are espresso, skelda, naked jogger, and aphix. zzzx is worrying because hes lurking, but he hasn't done anything "scummy"

Why would Pants post these posts if he was a Goon with ZZZX?

[Skelda]

VOTE: skelda

Good point indeed.

Can you tell me what is the same about me in both games? I feel like your vision is clouded because I was scum last time you saw me.

[Skelda]

skelda can you list your top scum reads?

I think I'm feeling NakedJogger, Espresso, aphix, and Bull for scum. ZZZX has a certain boldness to him in that even though he is being accused he hasn't been defending himself. I don't know, I guess I'd be fine with his lynch. But if he was trying to stay alive, I feel like it would benefit him to not be so obvious with his active lurking. I think my teams would be Naked and aphix and Espresso and Bull.

[Skelda]

This isnt my godfather play imo you should check the finished vengeball (366?) I had as a godfather

otherwise I will be back in 2-3 days since I had no net.

People are going to really hate you and I wouldn't be surprised to see you lynched.

[Skelda]

Why are you people suspecting ZZZX but not Bull?

[Skelda]

Hmm, maybe you are Town aphix. I wasn't sure whether or not to add you to my list of scumreads. A part of me wanted there to be four since there are four scum, but aphix seems really genuine in a way that he definitely didn't when we were scumbuddies. He had this thing where it seemed like he was trying to twist past experience and form it into a scumread on me, which seemed kind of fake to me, but his inquires seem really townish. He's starting to warm up to me. But there is still a part of me that wants you to be scum with NakedJogger.

Anyway, the reason I asked is because everyone is putting a bunch of heat on ZZZX for lurking/meta when people have described Bull having a meta of lurking and they seem to be pretty much guilty of the same things. So I was just wanting to know why pressure was on ZZZX and not on Bull. It didn't matter how many votes he had, the most anyone had was two votes at that point.

NakedJogger is my strongest scumread by far, which is why my vote is there. I was leaning towards town with ZZZX and had strong townreads on Csareo, Clusk, and Pants. It was kind of just PoE at that point, plus people saying that this is Bull's meta when scum. But I agree about lynching a lurking though, I still think NakedJogger is the best lynch for today. I am curious why you have a town read on him.

[Skelda]

Forum ate my post last night and I got a prod, great.

I'd be fine lynching ZZZX or yourself NJ. We have over five days left, and my stances on whom I am scum are clear (to my knowledge) so explain to me why I should feel such an immense pressure to place my vote right now.

I want to know what's going on with you and why you're not voting ZZZX.

Why aren't you voting someone other than ZZZX?

This is just a stupid question and I'm sick of it being asked. It isn't like ZZZX has been so scummy that everyone should be voting for him. The way you just picked a target and latched on seems like scum to me, you aren't considering othed options because all you want is someone who isn't you or your scumbuddy dead.

What are your other reads, Naked?

[Skelda]

Skelda: To answer your first question regarding NJ. 98, 99, 101. 163 and 198 all read as town motivated posts. For you, you accuse Naked of latching on and riding the vote ... I'm pretty sure you are doing exactly that. Can you explain what makes your play not scummy if his is?

You know, while I was typing that I was like, "Someone is going to accuse me of being a hypocrite because there definitely is an argument to be made that I did the samd thing." but I just didn't care. I do things like that sometimes, post things knowing people will suspect me for them but posting them anyway because it is what I think. And I wouldn't post that as scum, but you'll have tovgake my word for that.

People were saying that ZZZX's meta was lurking. He was hardly around and NJ just jumped on him. He saw suspicions being formed and saw his chance go jump on the wagon early. And then once ZZZX started posting more, it seemed like he was trying to justify his original suspicion rather than actually viewing things as they were. Town have the ability to change their mind, but scum like trying to make up their mind to seem Town and aren't going to change their minds unless they really need to save their buddies. It feels different to me, my thing with NJ and his thing with ZZZX. Especially because that justifying and coming up with reasons after a decision has been made is a massive scumtell. And maybe I'm a hypocrite for accusing him of something I arguably could be guilty of, but heck, can't Town be hypocrites?

[Skelda]

Espresso, who are you feeling like you want to vote for?

[Skelda]

Who would be willing to vote for Bull? That is another lynch I'd be happy with today. Or Espresso if that is the only option.

[Skelda]

Naked, what is the scum advantage of not voting when you've been asked to? That doesn't exactly stunt conversation because it draws attention to you.

I'm not crazy about how blended some of Espresso's posts feel, but I definitely have stronger scumreads. I would really rather Naked or Bull be lynched.

[Skelda]

Well, we need to form some sort of compromise pretty soon. I'd really prefer it not be Espresso or ZZZX. ZZZX, would you change your vote to NakedJogger? You said you'd vote for him all Day tomorrow, why not do it today? I really think he is obvious scum and definitely the scummiest player in this game for me. The only reason I can think of NOT to lynch him is that I wouldn't trust him with a vengeshot if by he was Town, but hopefully he'd use it on ZZZX who is inevitably going to die at some point regardless.

[Skelda]

so you want a lynch, but not espresso or ZZZX. but, if a player gets a vengekill, you hope they would use it on ZZZX

seems legit

It is though! Because the people I see Naked shooting are not people I want shot and I don't think ZZZX is going to live to the endgame regardless.

Anyway, I don't see NJ's lynch happening today. So I guess I'll just do a VOTE: Bullish. Keep. If anyone decides they'd prefer a NJ lynch, I would love to go back to that.

[Skelda]

ZZZX are you scum, or are these fuckers playing a number on us? Why aren't you more involved in this game?

Is it scummy to not be more involved in the game?

[Skelda]

There is no night kill this game, right? It's just a majority at the deadline.

Nope, it is Nightless.

[Skelda]

VOTE: zzzx
I strongly feel we need a lynch. I'll go with this.

I'd also like to point out skelda going from one no lynch target to another. Albeit slightly better vote. Meh. Don't care for it but well see.

Well, if I don't want Espresso or ZZZX lynched, what choice do I have? I thought there was a better chance of Bull getting lynched than NakedJogger since most of you seem adamant not to lynch him. And I really just lack the confidence in my Espresso read to vote for him. I will if I have to at deadline, but I don't want to.

[Skelda]

Mod: What would happen if Deadline ran out and there wasn't a lynch?

We are running in the principle of a plurality lynch. If no one gets hit 5 times, the person who receives the highest amount of votes first gets lynched

[Skelda]

ZZZX are you scum, or are these fuckers playing a number on us? Why aren't you more involved in this game?

Is it scummy to not be more involved in the game?

Skelda, your goddamn pointless comments are interfering with my inquiries. Can't you just wait until the guy responds before you let loose one of your dumbass questions?

It isn't pointless though! You know what your reason for voting ZZZX seems like? He isn't around as much as he ought to be and when he is around his posting is sparse and unhelpful. Yes, I get why you are annoyed by that! But you are wrong if you think that just because someone's play is unhelpful or annoying, they are scummy. Scum aren't out to annoy you. They aren't out to draw needless attention to themselves when they are perfectly capable of trying to fake a little scumhunting and blending in. The fact that ZZZX doesn't care about that makes me think Town. But obviously you are going to tug at whatever you can and you are probably going to push his lynch through. I really hope he shoots the right person.

[Skelda]

VOTE: Espresso

I think ZZZX is Town and Espresso has a chance of being scum. This isn't optimal, but whatever.

[Skelda]

Espresso is town

Okay, why do you think that? Just because you want ZZZX lynched? Didn't you suspect Espresso earlier for not voting?

Uggh, you are such scum. You must die!

[Skelda]

I reaction tested you. You are scum, Skelda. And ZZZX is probably your gf.

Was saying, "Espresso is town." your reaction test? Come on now. And yes, I have sort of made myself tied to ZZZX. I would like to think I'd be a bit more subtle than that. But if someone shoots him and he flips GF, I definitely would not be surprised to see myself lynched. The thing is, I kind of don't care about being tied to him because I think he is Town.

[Skelda]

Oh wait, I think deadline already expired. Meaning that ZZZX is dead anyway. I hope he shoots well.

[Skelda]

What a bizarre win.