Micro 1091 - Prism v. 1L Year [Game Over]

[Meuh]

I'm a miller

VOTE: Pooky

[Meuh]

wanna bet who has the better miller flavor

Mine because I actually have miller flavor

[Meuh]

The classic 3 scum 9 player setup

[Meuh]

curve

gg scumclaim it's over

[Meuh]

guiltylion scumclaimjng alrdy smh

So many spelling mistakes, you need to learn how to write (there's your crumb)

[Meuh]

I don't really see the purpose of crumbing flavour in a game where scum can ask for free flavour (nor am I a particularly big fan of doing that)

[Meuh]

meuh what is your flavor or crumb of your flavor

I just crumbed it cmon

[Meuh]

I'm Prism's legal research and writing class (yes, the class itself)

[Meuh]

Oh no my claim is legit, I'm a miller

[Meuh]

ok im a member of the federalist society what r u

That's lame I thought you were straight up claiming Donald Trump

[Meuh]

I'm Prism's legal research and writing class (yes, the class itself)

You’re the curve miller.

Nah I'm a regular old townie

[Meuh]

I'm Prism's legal research and writing class (yes, the class itself)

You’re the curve miller.

Nah I'm a regular old townie

(Aside from the miller part)

[Meuh]

ok im a member of the federalist society what r u

That's lame I thought you were straight up claiming Donald Trump

imagine thinking trump knows anything about law w i l d

Didn't he pick the justices though
I was referring to the crumb, not Trump's lawfulness (or lack thereof)
I forget exactly how that functions (I'm a Canadian)

[Meuh]

I'm Prism's legal research and writing class (yes, the class itself)

You’re the curve miller.

Nah I'm a regular old townie

why did u claim miller

I am one I just worded that post poorly

[Meuh]

"regular old townie" is a term to refer to my alignment broadly, and I did not realize it sounds like vanilla claim until that message was already sent!!
Pedit: Uhhhh English is my second language, that's my excuse

[Meuh]

Pooky are you just scum?

[Meuh]

If you're town, it does nothing. If you're scum, it's demoralizing because you're forced to lie to me already

[Meuh]

I for one, love asking that question.
I love it so much, I decided not to get in the way of it.

It's a really fun one tbh!!

[Meuh]

I considered entering game with "I have knowledge there is a miller in the game" and then revealing the miller is just me but then I figured that was just dumb
But I would not fakeclaim miller as town for fun, I'm a shitposter not a game ruiner

[Meuh]

Where is all the shit posting then.
I demand to see some shit.

Spoiler: helpful guide

[Meuh]

I dunno if her flavor is that believable. An entire class is pretty wild and it feels like she's taking "curve" to literally be a curve as the joke. Her lack of curiosity at my flavor feels off since she's CCing me? I don't even know what she thinks of my alignment. I'm not going to loudly push for her to be eliminated just on the claim so I'm going to see how the game plays out

The Law School Admissions Office

This is one of the sample role pms, I don't think a class is any wilder than this!
I think town!you would be taking a stronger stance than just urging us to toss aside the claims for now ? I do agree that focusing on things other than that is probably helpful, but the last sentence of your post feels fake
I did Google your flavour but I don't really have anything I want to expand on with it? Scum have at the very least 4 instances of flavour to base themselves off of (the 2 sample pms + their own pms), and that's without mentioning that they can just ask the mod for some. Your posting itself has more to say than your flavour, so I don't really care for it; especially since you coming out of the gate with it means that you had flavour prepared regardless of alignment. I don't feel great about your posting so far, fwiw

[Meuh]

Okay Bell can just be town

[Meuh]

My post wasn't a response to your post on Pooky, I just went through your ISO for a better feel of your alignment and came back thinking you were town!

[Meuh]

2006 I can't believe my memory goes back that far

Damn, that fakeclaim is older than me

[Meuh]

i think if one of pooky/meuh are a scums then odds of dunnstral also being a scums go up due to emphasis on millers normal

which made an announcement re:millers at gamestart importantly

Spoiler:

Throwback to the Invictus Meuh/Dunn scumteam accusations

[Meuh]

I do lean town on Catboi so far, but I also have the paranoia that he's just good at making content that I find very palatable and that I'll always townread him... I also feel like that's something I'll be able to figure out eventually though
Ydrasse I'm kinda conflicted on because the general, I guess position she's occupying? is one I feel bad about and gives me bad vibes but the actual posts she's made have vaguely good vibes.

[Meuh]

Dunn has town vibes here tbh

[Meuh]

I believe that Ydrasse is usually more charismatic as mafia early. Maybe. I feel like I make this argument a lot in games but I don't remember how that has went for me.

The little thought processes in posts like these just emanate town energy

[Meuh]

Because it's not really a one post kinda read; like I said, it's little thought processes that I can't necessarily pin point super well, but like every other Dunn posts make me think he's slightly town, which adds up fast

[Meuh]

I do lean town on Catboi so far, but I also have the paranoia that he's just good at making content that I find very palatable and that I'll always townread him... I also feel like that's something I'll be able to figure out eventually though
Ydrasse I'm kinda conflicted on because the general, I guess position she's occupying? is one I feel bad about and gives me bad vibes but the actual posts she's made have vaguely good vibes.

like this i didn't have the context of existing when i made my post but it proves my point because what does this even say about my slot that matters.
"kind of good but in a place that is bad". how do people parse this in a way that makes sense to the gamestate (maybe it's a skill issue because it's nonsense to me).

the vibes of this game are that not much is happening, really. some people were pushing on elle and you were defending her, and that was about it. I was sittig on my hands waiting because I'm trying not to take control of the game. The Meuh post doesn't really prove

any

point, because her commentary on you were almost certainly spurred on by that recent discussion, and doesn't really come across as a pivot to vote for you or anything.

You are right that what that post says is inconclusive. Do you think it being inconclusive has any bearing on Meuh's alignment?

i see it differently and see it as a really hedgy place to sit if no other options happen to crop up that meuh likes (said with a wink to the audience). it makes me very antsy.

i think it marginally points downward for her alignment. there was a point earlier in the game when she was talking to pooky and there was a pause before she asked "are you scum?" which kind of felt like going through the motions of a back and forth which might be influencing the dislike. i didn't bring it up at the time because it was one thing that i didn't feel strongly about but now there's two things so it's more worthwhile.

I think this is town Ydra? This feels like genuine progression on me (even if wrong, smh)
There you go, a less hedgy stance

[Meuh]

sorry to hear about COVID Bell :/ rest and take care of yourself

I am getting townvibes from Ydrasse - I've played a handful of games with her as both alignments and I've noticed a pattern where she acts noticeably more vibey and carefree as scum, like she plays in a manner to convince everyone that she's decidedly

not

experiencing any of the pressure or anxiety that comes with Being Mafia. whereas here she's being pretty candid about feeling a possible thread vibe against her, Mesh's hedgey post making her "antsy", etc. It comes across being self-conscious about her standing in the town in a way that I think scum!Ydra would generally tend to hide.

I was kinda wary of her opening for this exact reason, like 138 feels like something she'd post as scum, but the more anxious energy of her page 11/12 posts feels genuine to me.

True!

[Meuh]

Hedging is fine.
I almost never (get it?) say things in absolutes.

I know, I was just poking fun

[Meuh]

I already rolled scum 3 times this year, so the mafia gods will compensate by making me town for the rest of the year

[Meuh]

You know who DOES feel like they're just going through the motions? GuiltyLion.

[Meuh]

You know who DOES feel like they're just going through the motions? GuiltyLion.

I do think this is a general quirk of the way he plays, but he feels especially stiff here I guess?
Like compared to New Year Dance Party (viewtopic.php?sid=&f=56&t=90239&user_select%5B%5D=26515), his posting here feels cleaner in a way I don't feel good about; could partially be justified by the contrast in game tone and him not being 100% checked into that game, but I don't find that fully satisfactory. Also 322 feels generally off (and TMI on Dunn being town maybe?), like I read this post and he presents this questioning of Dunn's alignment but I don't actually feel like this is something he reflected on, I don't buy the thought process.
VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Meuh]

I do not think that I am generally very good at convincing people I am town once I am on the "back foot" as pooky put it, and the thread starts being about me (to be fair, this is probably as true if I were scum as it is when I am town).

And seeing as how I hit E-1 already, and I don't plan on throwing myself all into "proving myself" or what ever, so I think I'll just claim.

I am a 2-shot Tracker.

So, yall can discuss if yall are killing me for claiming, or letting me live for being a PR, and decide on that basis.

And I'll just skip the hassle of trying so hard if I am dying today.

I could do the funniest thing ever and CC this claim too

Spoiler:

(I won't)

[Meuh]

Luke's entrance overlaps a lot with my own perspective on the game over time and I don't know if that's something I should feel good or bad about

[Meuh]

VOTE: Catboi
Recent posting has given me a general bad vibe that I couldn't pinpoint, on reflection I'd say it's because his posting feels... impersonal?
It's very "this is what I'd do in this situation", talking about broader concepts and logic, but disconnected from the game. 539 is a defence that operates in this way, the focus down on passion here as a specific idea and the rebuttal to that feels like the angle scum trying to find holes in an attack would go. Catboi's wording here and his argument here isn't about this game, it's a general statement that for him, lacking energy isn't a scumtell (which is likely true)! I think this points to a scum mentality. The narrative Lukewarm presents is largely unquestioned, it's the specific idea of no energy = scum that he would immediately see as incorrect, as that's something he always believes in. But he's not trying to really understand Lukewarm here still, or at least it doesn't feel like it.
544 shows the contrast between Luke actively trying to figure out what's going on in the game while Catboi clings onto logical ideas that exist on a larger scale.
It's a general mentality that stays true with all of Catboi's posts on the most recent pages. The posts are disconnected from the game, arguments revolve around this broader logic that he probably does genuinely believe in, and statements are overly tied down to a generic view of the correct or incorrect approach to the game.

[Meuh]

[Meuh]

Copycat!

[Meuh]

I'll try to wrap my head around this game at some point, there's a lot my brain just hasn't absorbed at this point

[Meuh]

Cakez are you scum

[Meuh]

Cakez are you scum

is there ever a right answer to this question lmao

If there is one, it's definitely not this
VOTE: SirCakez

[Meuh]

i don’t feel very good about anyone’s alignments this game

wouldn’t vote today: luke, rh9, meuh, bell, and i think not dunn. pooky i don’t think i townread but don’t feel like that’s a good vote right now either
so gl or cakez both of which have had good and bad moments to me

Also this pretty much lines up with who I want to lim today, with the caveat that I might be fine limming you also

[Meuh]

Catboi slot isn't really cleared or anything in my eyes; I've barely gotten anything from the past few pages, and I'm not particularly interested in revisiting them, especially since forming reads on a replace-out always feels gross. I just don't see why not to give RH9 some time to settle in here

[Meuh]

I know that I've just played 2 games with town!Cakez and ended up correctly townreading him both times, so I'm thinking the lack of anything I've really liked there probably makes him scummier than it otherwise would? Which is accentuated with the POE narrowing down, since I'm having good feelings on or not wanting to lim a punch of people. The lack of me liking anything from him also may stem from a very significant amount of his content being involved in back and forths that I just found plain unenjoyable to read? But meh whatever

[Meuh]

It has come to my attention that at least one player, Lukewarm, is having trouble accessing the thread to post.

Given the thread access issues and the two replacements, I have decided to add 24 hours to the deadline. More may be added if technical issues persist, but this is not guaranteed.

Please let me know if you are affected so I can avoid prodding you until it is resolved.

The new Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2023-09-07 12:30:00).

I had issues with this for a while earlier today (checking the thread told me I didn't have access to it) but it's resolved for me, could be fixed for Lukewarm also at this point?

[Meuh]

I kinda feel like Meuh has fallen off a lot this game and that's starting to worry me

I was kind of disconnected from the game and low energy, and then Catboi's reaction to my push kinda just made me fall over for a while
and by the time I wanted to play again the thread was in an uncomfortable and unenjoyable state

[Meuh]

@Meuh I'd like your thoughts on what I just said re:Cakez since you were in that game as well

What you said sounded compelling on the surface at least, but I honestly don't remember much from Eurybia. I wanna get a better sense of that game before putting my stamp of approval on what you've said

[Meuh]

Haven’t even had the time to mourn Ydra and you’re chasing the next mislim
VOTE: Cakez

[Meuh]

Gut told me Ydra was town and I should’ve pushed that harder

[Meuh]

Wait why isn’t Lukewarm dead

[Meuh]

I mean Bell was obv town but also a vt

[Meuh]

Does it really count as a massclaim when it's three people claiming

[Meuh]

Yeah probably
ALSO ONLY CAT GIFS ON NEXT PAGE

[Meuh]

[Meuh]

[Meuh]

[Meuh]

Was about to unvote for the same reason but got sniped!!!

[Meuh]

No cat gifs

Also what exactly has changed between yesterday and now? Why is the setup not adding up now?

[Meuh]

Has anyone mentioned the mysterious disappearance of Cakez' GL scumread?

[Meuh]

One of my initial thoughts was that scum could have neapolitan, and that a miller would mess with their results rather than cop results, but that seems kinda silly? With no cop claim, I'm inclined to think they're just named townies at this point? No clue if this lines up with what Prism would do as a mod though

[Meuh]

Named townies seem silly in of themselves in a flavoured game though tbh

[Meuh]

One of my initial thoughts was that scum could have neapolitan, and that a miller would mess with their results rather than cop results, but that seems kinda silly? With no cop claim, I'm inclined to think they're just named townies at this point? No clue if this lines up with what Prism would do as a mod though

Extra silly since millers usually claim day 1, didn't complete that thought here

[Meuh]

where did meuh go

[Meuh]

One of my initial thoughts was that scum could have neapolitan, and that a miller would mess with their results rather than cop results, but that seems kinda silly? With no cop claim, I'm inclined to think they're just named townies at this point? No clue if this lines up with what Prism would do as a mod though

So, it'd figure one of Dunn/Cakez/GL isn't telling the truth, then?
Because Luke had no way of faking a result on Dunn, given he claimed first.

I mean at least one of them isn't if you/Pooky are actual Millers.

In this neapolitan world, Luke could fake a result on Dunn if they were both scum, but that would leave Cakez as the only town PR and that's not very balanced. I don't think we live in a neapolitan world though if I'm being real

In general, I think the only world where Luke is scum is a world where Dunn and/or Cakez are lying about the amount of shots they have? 1-shot doc + 1-shot rber seems kinda weak? But also I could theoretically see someone see millers as named townies and that somehow swinging balance back to about even, so meh.

I'm thinking Pooky's just town, and Cakez' play around the claims actually looks fairly good here. Page 42/43 look good for them both. So maybe it's just Dunn/GL? I think you can be scum but I don't see it right now
Though what power would scum!Dunn use on Luke? Rolecops do see initial shot count in a check as far as I know, so maybe scum would want to gauge it?

Dunn why did you claim specifically the 1-shot aspect of your role

did you consider withholding the number of uses

I did consider doing that but valued true claiming for figuring out the setup and if other claimed roles are real.

That and I didn't want to cause problems if fake claiming led to people questioning my role, like if there were another gated protective role in the setup.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
I think there's a fair chance that's the thought process Dunn genuinely had here, but as scum
Claiming full doctor or a doctor with more than a shot would be bad if there was an actual town protective. At first I thought this discouraged GL/Dunn because GL hadn't claimed yet and Dunn has no reason to fear a scum!GL claim, but Cakez also hadn't claimed, but DID allude to being a PR

I'm even more suspicious as Luke has claimed he found yet another PR, which, two millers, another visiting PR, Luke

and my role

seems absurd. We should probably mass claim, someone in the PR claims is lying.

I'm alright with mass claiming. Luke should probably claim what they saw first to verify their role.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Like I did the math
I'm not a VT, to clarify what I've been alluding to. So if all the PR claims + Luke's track PR are legit that would make the setup

Ydrasse VT
Bell VT
Pooky Miller
Meuh Miller
Luke 2shot Tracker
Me non-VT
Whoever Luke tracked visiting someone
Scum
Scum

That doesn't look like a legit setup to me, thus why I think in the PR claims there are scum, either whoever Luke tracked or in the millers or potentially Luke himself. Like was said we can check him now with his claimed target.

Luke claims to have seen a visit -> Cakez claims non-VT, not the specific role -> Dunn insists Lukewarm should claim before everyone else -> Lukewarm does claim -> Dunn claims a low-power town role that even he himself noticed wouldn't contradict ANOTHER town protective claim (??? Why is this a thought he would even have as town, if I'm a 1-shot doc in a setup with a 2-shot tracker I'm not thinking there's another protective somewhere)
He's just scum and his play around the claims lines up entirely with what a scum player who visited last night would want to do here

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Meuh]

I don't see anything wrong with that setup. Keep in mind that the PRs are weaker than normal, and that miller is likely not a big factor in balance. Do you think there is an issue with town having three prs in a micro?

the issue is that on D1, town is not going to eliminate any claimed PR and likely not a miller claim either

so for all 5 players claiming roles to be town, it means Prism is handing the scumteam a D1 where only 2 townies are miselimmable

that seems quite clearly unbalanced, my understanding is that's why most 9p setups have generally around 2 PRs unless it's explicitly a role madness type of deal

Scum perspectiveeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee scum seeing the setup as more townsided than it actually issssssssssssssssssss

[Meuh]

Town does not have the thought of "millers are mislimmable on day 1 here"
GL is scum playing against 2 town millers he didn't feel like he could mislim
I think this perspective kinda unpairs Cakez/GL since wasn't Cakez one of the people who was sticking to not limming a miller day 1? His perspective (as town) would affect GL's view of a miller mislim (as scum)

[Meuh]

It's Dunn/Cakez (probably Dunn) with GL/RH9 (probably GL)
Unless Pooky is faking a town perspective very well or we're actually in a weird scum!Luke world and Dunn/Cakez are both town
I feel like Dunn/Pooky is feasible? But not the most likely world. Pooky/Cakez doesn't feel like a scum pair
Pooky with a VT claim I feel is generally questionable in terms of mechs? and neither a Pooky/GL or Pooky/RH9 team looks right to me, but I can't say I've thought of it thoroughly

[Meuh]

Mafia wouldn't have known all the power roles on night 1. They could have avoided killing Luke because they (correctly) assumed that he would be protected.

It wasn't correct!!!! BUT it is what you thought when you decided to kill Bell!!!!!!

[Meuh]

Town does not have the thought of "millers are mislimmable on day 1 here"

“aren’t mislimmable”, not “are mislimmable”, you get the point

[Meuh]

I think the only way I live to tomorrow (to bring my second result) is if dunn is town, and 2-shot, and lied about being 1 shot in order to bait the kill into me.

Which is honestly the smart way for him to play being 2 shot.

And kind of smarter then a 1-shot dunn true claiming being 1-shot. (Actually 1-shot dunn should have claimed x-shot).

And dunn should probably not react to this post either.

Dunn’s reasoning for claiming his shot count is very weak and half of it is literally “I didn’t wanna claim more shots and get into trouble with another protective claim” which is pretty blatantly something scum care a thousand times more about. Scum care more about their claim being good than about Luke actually surviving, and scum would be more likely to expect a protective counter-claim. This is reflected in the way Dunn’s handled the claim, it’s a scum perspective the whole way through.
Town!Dunn cares about diverting the kill from Luke or protecting him from one, scum!Dunn cares about the sanctity of his claim. Dunn isn’t even pretending to have the first mindset.

[Meuh]

I agree with RH9 that town!Dunn is likely trueclaiming and I don't get the vibe he's playing wacky mindgames as town
Which is also a large part as to why Lukewarm's counter to my argument for Dunn!scum is uncompelling to me
I suppose discussing this extensively if Dunn is town and lives to night is bad, but I don't want him to live to night lmao

[Meuh]

I don't think Dunn is scum because then town had 0 protective power. Luke's role + Dunns + me is a perfect level of town power.

Also is town rber not functionally a protective role? It differs in how it's used but a doctor and an rber are both trying to stop the NK

[Meuh]

I agree with RH9 that town!Dunn is likely trueclaiming and I don't get the vibe he's playing wacky mindgames as town
Which is also a large part as to why Lukewarm's counter to my argument for Dunn!scum is uncompelling to me
I suppose discussing this extensively if Dunn is town and lives to night is bad, but I don't want him to live to night lmao

I guess it's also bad if he's scum and lives to night because he might want to let Lukewarm live then?

[Meuh]

Town does not have the thought of "millers are mislimmable on day 1 here"
GL is scum playing against 2 town millers he didn't feel like he could mislim
I think this perspective kinda unpairs Cakez/GL since wasn't Cakez one of the people who was sticking to not limming a miller day 1? His perspective (as town) would affect GL's view of a miller mislim (as scum)

I don't understand this post

Dunn asked what is wrong with a micro with 3 PRs + 2 millers, so I explained why there can't be 3 PRs + 2 millers

"scum perspective" is required to explain why a theoretical set up is unbalanced for scum

I kind of think we just yeet GuiltyLion here I believe in all my PRs

there literally has to be scum in the PRs

especially if you are town

@Luke am I crazy? why does it feel like I'm the only person saying both Cakez and Dunn cannot be town

I guess Meuh also said the same thing but called me scum for saying it

My point was more specifically regarding millers not being mislimmable on day 1.
The way that clashed with my own (and others') view of the game and the way that I think scum would be more likely to believe it was my issue
The rest of your post was fine
But yeah this setup does not work if all the claims are real, there's scum in Dunn/Cakez here, though probably not both. (2-shot tracker + 2 millers is feasible I guess? But not super likely in my eyes)

[Meuh]

If I were to rank scum team possibilities on the way I see mech here it'd be something like this

Most likely

RH9/GL/Pooky + Dunn/Cakez
RH9/GL/Pooky + Luke
Dunn + Cakez
Luke + Dunn/Cakez
RH9/GL + Pooky
RH9 + GL

Least likely

(The Luke!scum scenarios likely involve Dunn and/or Cakez lying about shot count)

[Meuh]

VT
VT
VT
Miller
2S Tracker
1S RB
1S Doc
Scum
Scum

Looks like a real setup to me

Absolutely not

If both scum are in the PR/Miller claims then that would make both GL and RH9 town and I find that very hard to believe lol

Who even is saying both scum are in PR/Miller? It's pretty likely to be a VT+1 PR here
Why is this the possibility you're even acklowledging here when you/Dunn + GL/RH9 has been pushed more as an idea (and is more reasonable than your idea that all the PR claims are town)

[Meuh]

@Luke am I crazy? why does it feel like I'm the only person saying both Cakez and Dunn cannot be town

If you ignore the existence of the millers, I think that 2S Tracker + XS Doc + 1S RB can all fit in this game. But with the 2 miller claims added on top, I am less sure.

But I am not sure if that means scum in dunn/cakez or if that means scum in the millers.

Why are you treating Dunn as an X-shot but Cakez as a 1-shot?

[Meuh]

One thing that sticks out in Cakez' favour here is that he was already implying being a PR that didn't visit last night before Dunn had claimed
As scum, he had no need to commit to claiming PR this early and could've waited to choose when his turn came to claim, but he was already directing himself towards that before even knowing who Luke had visited and this person's role. If scum Cakez softs PR and then Dunn claims something like full doc, he's forced to retract his soft or to claim a weak PR, and neither looks good.
This contrasts with Dunn who was forced into a position where he had to claim PR and then did so, self-admittedly being scared of another PR claiming and looking bad because of it. Cakez has backed down on this so it's less significant, but pushing the idea of scum existing in the PRs while deciding to soft PR himself as scum is pretty risky
imo Dunn handled the PR situation in the safest, most textbook way, while Cakez did it in a weird, risky way that doesn't seem like how scum would want to approach it

[Meuh]

If people are unwilling to do Dunn then I'll probably vote GL but I'm a whole lot less excited about that

[Meuh]

I've already said I think one scum is in the VTs and one is in the not-VTs

I think there's a wide difference between VT/miller and VT/PR for team composition, though. The second option is much more likely imo

[Meuh]

Dunn, don't you see?

He thinks you could be a true claiming, scum-aligned, 1-shot doctor (in a game with no Vigilante) who used their 1 shot to protect the town tracker.

That is not what I've been saying.
I'm saying that Dunn is probably trueclaiming the 1-shot aspect if he is really a town doc.

Yeah this part from Luke/Dunn confused me, RH9 was pretty clearly saying that Dunn,

if town

, was being fully truthful (which also lines up with my perspective at this point)

[Meuh]

I've already said I think one scum is in the VTs and one is in the not-VTs

I think there's a wide difference between VT/miller and VT/PR for team composition, though. The second option is much more likely imo

Why? I don't understand why you aren't suspicious of Pooky here, he is of you

I've already said I think one scum is in the VTs and one is in the not-VTs

I think there's a wide difference between VT/miller and VT/PR for team composition, though. The second option is much more likely imo

This sure is a advantageous position for a miller claim to push lol

This is for mechanical reasons... The reason I'm dismissing VT/miller is because it involves all PRs being town, not because I think millers have to be town. VT/miller is actually slightly more likely than VT/VT here.
I think PR/miller is more probable than VT/miller by a good margin, cause I think millers are closer to VTs than PRs in terms of their place in the setup. 1234 outlines this.
I think Pooky flips scum more than RH9 at this point, but I probably should give a closer look to his ISO. I just haven't been super rushed to re-examine him when I think Dunn is very scummy and GL is a decent lim in the miller/VT pool if that can't go through.

[Meuh]

Dunn, don't you see?

He thinks you could be a true claiming, scum-aligned, 1-shot doctor (in a game with no Vigilante) who used their 1 shot to protect the town tracker.

That is not what I've been saying.
I'm saying that Dunn is probably trueclaiming the 1-shot aspect if he is really a town doc.

Yeah this part from Luke/Dunn confused me, RH9 was pretty clearly saying that Dunn,

if town

, was being fully truthful (which also lines up with my perspective at this point)

fwiw, I understood what RH was saying, and was just being a silly goofy guy with that post.

I was thinking you probably were, but I figured it'd be confusing to single out Dunn there if I was just misreading the entire situation and you were actually being serious

[Meuh]

Dunn > GL > Pooky > RH9 > Cakez > Lukewarm
My lim preference at the moment

[Meuh]

I was gonna say I don't recall Pooky doing anything town indicative recently, but I did like his posting a few pages back with Cakez

[Meuh]

[Meuh]

Pretty sure that was a cat, not a wolf

[Meuh]

I've read the posting around it but I don't feel like I've digested it super well
Rep out looks bad but I still think a lot of RH9's posting was good and it felt like our thoughts clicked quite a bit, but I may be overestimating that mindmeld
I don't really feel like my input would actually change whether RH9 gets hammered or not (and it seems like the lack thereof got Dunn to vote for me, which is more than me commenting on it would've done )
I instinctively felt the urge to rush to comment but I realized my take on RH9 didn't actually merit urgency so I just didn't, would it really have done much? Maybe I'm disillusioned for no good reason, meh
Dunn is never happening either way, maybe I could make some cool case for GL being scum but I don't have the confidence or the energy in that read to build a real case right now. and I'm too murky on RH9 to provide meaningful insight either

[Meuh]

Especially since a lot of my good feelings on RH9 came from direct interactions and more feeling good about the position he was occupying? Which is pretty fickle and I should probably reconsider, and is also just not the basis for a convincing argument not to vote for him here

[Meuh]

(and it seems like the lack thereof got Dunn to vote for me, which is more than me commenting on it would've done )

What do you mean by this?

Me making some post saying "no!!! don't hammer RH9!!!!" probably would've accomplished nothing. I'm jokingly saying that me not commenting on the E-1 at all probably did more to help RH9, since a vote on him got deviated onto me instead because of it.

[Meuh]

Person I am mind-melding and enjoying solving with suddenly replaces out, then gets ran to E-1 is a demotivating thing to happen, yes

[Meuh]

Spoiler:

Though, would Prism actually use Millers as Named Townies?

The thing being if yes, then the PR claims are suspect.

One of my initial thoughts was that scum could have neapolitan, and that a miller would mess with their results rather than cop results, but that seems kinda silly? With no cop claim, I'm inclined to think they're just named townies at this point? No clue if this lines up with what Prism would do as a mod though

Named townies seem silly in of themselves in a flavoured game though tbh

One of my initial thoughts was that scum could have neapolitan, and that a miller would mess with their results rather than cop results, but that seems kinda silly? With no cop claim, I'm inclined to think they're just named townies at this point? No clue if this lines up with what Prism would do as a mod though

Extra silly since millers usually claim day 1, didn't complete that thought here

One of my initial thoughts was that scum could have neapolitan, and that a miller would mess with their results rather than cop results, but that seems kinda silly? With no cop claim, I'm inclined to think they're just named townies at this point? No clue if this lines up with what Prism would do as a mod though

So, it'd figure one of Dunn/Cakez/GL isn't telling the truth, then?
Because Luke had no way of faking a result on Dunn, given he claimed first.

I mean at least one of them isn't if you/Pooky are actual Millers.

also his approach is not as townie as the other two

As in after the massclaim?
Because, you could be right on this.
The way Cakez has interacted with claims does feel townier than Dunn's.
(Though, I could biased in that I feel like if all PR claims are town, that means Mafia's basically hoping Luke wastes his last track on the PR claims. And that'd have to mean scum are doing pretty well at not getting any attention.)

I think rn I'm at one of Cakez/GL is scum along with one of the Millers.
P-edit: Maybe it could be GL/Dunn.

Eh.
Now I think about it, Cakez only makes sense as scum with Pooky.

And I don't think Pooky is scum.

At least, Pooky has came across as genuinely concerned town quite a bit.

One of my initial thoughts was that scum could have neapolitan, and that a miller would mess with their results rather than cop results, but that seems kinda silly? With no cop claim, I'm inclined to think they're just named townies at this point? No clue if this lines up with what Prism would do as a mod though

So, it'd figure one of Dunn/Cakez/GL isn't telling the truth, then?
Because Luke had no way of faking a result on Dunn, given he claimed first.

I mean at least one of them isn't if you/Pooky are actual Millers.

In this neapolitan world, Luke could fake a result on Dunn if they were both scum, but that would leave Cakez as the only town PR and that's not very balanced. I don't think we live in a neapolitan world though if I'm being real

In general, I think the only world where Luke is scum is a world where Dunn and/or Cakez are lying about the amount of shots they have? 1-shot doc + 1-shot rber seems kinda weak? But also I could theoretically see someone see millers as named townies and that somehow swinging balance back to about even, so meh.

I'm thinking Pooky's just town, and Cakez' play around the claims actually looks fairly good here. Page 42/43 look good for them both. So maybe it's just Dunn/GL? I think you can be scum but I don't see it right now
Though what power would scum!Dunn use on Luke? Rolecops do see initial shot count in a check as far as I know, so maybe scum would want to gauge it?

Dunn why did you claim specifically the 1-shot aspect of your role

did you consider withholding the number of uses

I did consider doing that but valued true claiming for figuring out the setup and if other claimed roles are real.

That and I didn't want to cause problems if fake claiming led to people questioning my role, like if there were another gated protective role in the setup.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
I think there's a fair chance that's the thought process Dunn genuinely had here, but as scum
Claiming full doctor or a doctor with more than a shot would be bad if there was an actual town protective. At first I thought this discouraged GL/Dunn because GL hadn't claimed yet and Dunn has no reason to fear a scum!GL claim, but Cakez also hadn't claimed, but DID allude to being a PR

I'm even more suspicious as Luke has claimed he found yet another PR, which, two millers, another visiting PR, Luke

and my role

seems absurd. We should probably mass claim, someone in the PR claims is lying.

I'm alright with mass claiming. Luke should probably claim what they saw first to verify their role.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Like I did the math
I'm not a VT, to clarify what I've been alluding to. So if all the PR claims + Luke's track PR are legit that would make the setup

Ydrasse VT
Bell VT
Pooky Miller
Meuh Miller
Luke 2shot Tracker
Me non-VT
Whoever Luke tracked visiting someone
Scum
Scum

That doesn't look like a legit setup to me, thus why I think in the PR claims there are scum, either whoever Luke tracked or in the millers or potentially Luke himself. Like was said we can check him now with his claimed target.

Luke claims to have seen a visit -> Cakez claims non-VT, not the specific role -> Dunn insists Lukewarm should claim before everyone else -> Lukewarm does claim -> Dunn claims a low-power town role that even he himself noticed wouldn't contradict ANOTHER town protective claim (??? Why is this a thought he would even have as town, if I'm a 1-shot doc in a setup with a 2-shot tracker I'm not thinking there's another protective somewhere)
He's just scum and his play around the claims lines up entirely with what a scum player who visited last night would want to do here

VOTE: Dunnstral

I think the only way I live to tomorrow (to bring my second result) is if dunn is town, and 2-shot, and lied about being 1 shot in order to bait the kill into me.

Which is honestly the smart way for him to play being 2 shot.

And kind of smarter then a 1-shot dunn true claiming being 1-shot. (Actually 1-shot dunn should have claimed x-shot).

And dunn should probably not react to this post either.

I don't think Dunn is a gambity sort of player?
I might be wrong but the way Dunn's been playing makes me think it's unlikely he's 2-shot.
At best, we can hope Cakez is town and has not yet used his rb.

If you think that then it's weird that you are suspecting me after I got tracked to Lukewarm

I think you trueclaimed.
Your play makes only real sense if you really were 1-shot.

I kind of think we just yeet GuiltyLion here I believe in all my PRs

I guess this is OK with me.

I agree with RH9 that town!Dunn is likely trueclaiming and I don't get the vibe he's playing wacky mindgames as town
Which is also a large part as to why Lukewarm's counter to my argument for Dunn!scum is uncompelling to me
I suppose discussing this extensively if Dunn is town and lives to night is bad, but I don't want him to live to night lmao

I agree with RH9 that town!Dunn is likely trueclaiming and I don't get the vibe he's playing wacky mindgames as town
Which is also a large part as to why Lukewarm's counter to my argument for Dunn!scum is uncompelling to me
I suppose discussing this extensively if Dunn is town and lives to night is bad, but I don't want him to live to night lmao

I guess it's also bad if he's scum and lives to night because he might want to let Lukewarm live then?

I kind of think we just yeet GuiltyLion here I believe in all my PRs

I guess this is OK with me.

what do you mean you guess? the alternative is you lol

Because there's still wagons on you/Dunn?
And chances are it's going to be between me/you/GL.

Dunn, don't you see?

He thinks you could be a true claiming, scum-aligned, 1-shot doctor (in a game with no Vigilante) who used their 1 shot to protect the town tracker.

That is not what I've been saying.
I'm saying that Dunn is probably trueclaiming the 1-shot aspect if he is really a town doc.

Dunn, don't you see?

He thinks you could be a true claiming, scum-aligned, 1-shot doctor (in a game with no Vigilante) who used their 1 shot to protect the town tracker.

That is not what I've been saying.
I'm saying that Dunn is probably trueclaiming the 1-shot aspect if he is really a town doc.

Yeah this part from Luke/Dunn confused me, RH9 was pretty clearly saying that Dunn,

if town

, was being fully truthful (which also lines up with my perspective at this point)

If you think that then it's weird that you are suspecting me after I got tracked to Lukewarm

I think you trueclaimed.
Your play makes only real sense if you really were 1-shot.

I can't tell if you are calling me town here, but if you are I feel like you were speculating that I may have been mafia earlier

Well. I felt like you could be scum, due to the fact that Cakez barely makes sense as scum with half of everybody but like you and Pooky.
And Pooky hasn't felt like scum to me, so reasonably this limits scum to you/GL/Cakez/Meuh.
However, I have been thinking that Cakez can actually be Town and I've been mindmelding with Meuh, leaving the scumpool to you/GL.
On the other hand, your play if town, makes more sense coming from a world where you trueclaimed than one where you're playing elaborate mindgames like Luke has been suggesting.

[Meuh]

I don't think your posting matches up with your purported mood

nevr, jusge a book by its cover...

[Meuh]

VOTE: RH9 I'd rather not die

[Meuh]

I don't think your posting matches up with your purported mood

nevr, jusge a book by its cover...

yea im sure when you were posting cat memes you were really depressed that your mindmeld buddy got bounced out of the game and dogpiled on

Spoiler:

Me when I was posting that cat gif

[Meuh]

But I'd rather do Meuh first because I think that gives us more info then RH9 slot and Meuh is also going to be harder to elim in later game while pretty much everyone SRs the RH9 slot

In what world am I a hard late game elim???

[Meuh]

I was gonna reply to Luke's whole thing like "RH9 is town so scum just don't care" but I'm less and less confident on that
When Dunn asked for the mindmeld I had with RH9 and I went back to find it, I found that ISO definitely had a lot more echoing other people's thoughts and doesn't have a lot unique he's bringing to the table. Which kind of explains why I felt mindmeld, he just agreed with whatever other people were saying
and Dunn being the one leading the charge on the push for me probably points to that being a possible team at this point
Not sure about the Cakez/RH9 scum team chance here though.
I found the Catboi replace out NAI at the time and I don't really see a reason to change my mind on that (nor do I like reading people based on rep outs)

[Meuh]

Spoiler: Dunn/RH9 slot

shaping view of game around assuming millers are town seems ? to me

miller claims in current site meta are town at a rate well above random (not even counting the very silly normal Dunnstral just linked) and reading into the personality of the players claiming and determining they aren't lying is pretty basic, it's not dissimilar to evaluating most other claims really. It's just based on whether you think the person is likely to be lying or not.

That being said the logic I used for it is trivial to fake as scum and I would probably play around the claims exactly the same way as scum, because it's easy to make that sort of logical point. Dunn townreading me there for it was puzzling but sometimes town make weird reads so I'm not going to do anything about it.

I don't think that will be very helpful for me so would feel guilty making you put in substantial effort to do so. If somebody else thinks this would be useful they can jump in.

I don't think it will be helpful because I don't put a lot of weight into saying you would do things differently when we are this early into the game, and you are the one describing things and there is bias there. I think that mafia fake claiming millers is unlikely, and despite what catboi says I do think a track record of not fake claiming miller makes it more likely to not be fake in this game as well. And meuh was the one who counter claimed so they took an active role and I agree with the thought that mafia are less likely to do so, especially when somebody else is already claiming that role. So that makes me think the millers are town, and

your reaction to them reminded me of when I played the mini normal recently and the mafia made a similar argument against the miller claims

.

And I also am reading catboi and bell as town, so that has me looking at Elle (1L), Ydrasse, SirCakez, and GuiltyLion. And you Elle (1L) are the one who has given the most content to discuss. I am not disregarding the 4 people I am townreading for the rest of the game, I do think it is a good place to start though.

Thought push on elle was maybe a little unfair but I like the bolded line, fakeable but it's a decent thought.

I acknowledge 287 as being correct on some level about the word choices Meuh seeming scummy, I'm just...not sure it actually comes from scum. It's a

plausible

read from Ydrasse, at any rate.

I think 294 from Cakez is a very generic sounding read that does nothing for me, but I think he comes off okay in his tiff with Ydrasse, and I'd even lean town on it? Just my feeling that the passion is real rather than a show being put on by mafia. Could be wrong, but I don't really feel like he's a good vote on Day 1 because he tends to get mis-elimmed as town a lot.

Would Ydrasse, as mafia, feel the need to push SirCakez early on, rather than building up connections?

It's not impossible

if

she felt threatened by cakez scumreading her and felt the need to push back on an accuser before she became a wagon - part of why I squinted at her accusing the game of shifting momentum toward her was that it felt like it could be an unconscious guilt thing - when you're scum you tend to perceive your actions as ore suspicious than they are and get worried that people are going to start pushing you and it felt like an exaggeration of reality.

Or she could just be a paranoid townie. I'm hardly committed to my current vote.

(also 314 got a laugh out of me)

I don't really have a read on elle but I'm not opposed to voting her. I don't have thoughts on Dunn having a read on me because I have almost no success reading people off how they read me. I don't think it's impossible for a townie to see someone reading the game the same way as them and call it town even if it was fast, but in terms of his other content it's been unobjectionable but doesn't scream town to me.

like gls thoughts on catboi exactly mirror my own. so they make sense to me. i just dont bother to question dflors townread cuz i think its tactically bad.

I do not think that it is unreasonable to not be swayed by Dunn's reasons. I wasn't. I still don't have a read on catboi.

It also did not bother me that he asked Dunn to explain the read, that is also reasonable. My issue was where GL went after that.

It did not read to me, like GL was trying to divine if Dunn's read was a plausibly genuine read or not, and therefore whether having that read was scummy or not. At least, I did not see anything about that coming from GL's posts following Dunn's explanation.

Instead, it seemed like he pivoted into trying to convince Dunn not to have that read. And he was not even arguing that Cartboi is scum. Just that Dunn should not have a town read because it is

possible

for scum to replicate it.

I don't see why a townie would actually care if Dunn has a day 1 town read on Catboi, especially one Dunn openly said he is not married to

Spoiler:

I am not disregarding the 4 people I am townreading for the rest of the game, I do think it is a good place to start though.

But there is scum motivation to stop people from forming too many town reads.

Maybe I am ascribing too much to the unsaid, but I thought it was pretty plausible that GL's questioning of Dunn was for exactly the reason of figuring out if it was genuine or not.

hm, okay

having a tracker in a setup with (potential) millers is kind of comedic if it's true, but I don't feel like eliminating a PR claim on Day 1. Still feels like there's probably a scum between Luke and GL but it's not something that needs immediate resolution in my opinion.

VOTE: Dunn

I guess I land here: not really strongly townread by anyone but also not getting pressured.

VOTE: Dunn

I guess I land here: not really strongly townread by anyone but also not getting pressured.

That does not mean I am mafia.

True it doesn't but I don't townread you. If I'm wrong on you then either I'm wrong on cakez (entirely possible but I'm personally not going to vote him Day 1), or someone else is getting misread by people.

I think that I am convincing myself that GL is town, and that catboi is positioning to eliminate him after killing me for being a tracker.

Both because he linked the two of us together in a way that seems disingenuous, but also in the same post of doing that just side stepped eliminating inside the pair entirely for the day.

Especially when reading 502, and his pivot into Dunn feels toothless, like it was just The Best Option Left. Not like he even thought his thoughts on Dunn were Good.

I literally just said we shouldn't vote you Day 1 so I don't know where you're getting the idea I'm trying to eliminate you. I would only push to eliminate you if you weren't NKed and after a mass claim your claim was one we decided didn't really fit in the setup. You're right I'm trying to eliminate outside you two, but I don't think you're ever scum together, so there's almost certainly a scum outside you. In the event I'm wrong on there being a scum between you two then voting outside you is even more beneficial to the town for obvious reasons.

I don't know where you'd get the idea I'd be able to effortlessly chain-elim GL and then you or why you think I'd lay my roadmap for a path to victory out in the thread Day 1, that's totally unnecessary as scum when I can just go 1 step at a time.

I would agree with your assessment that I'm not being exceptionally forceful with my vote on Dunn. Why should I be? I have no particular reason to believe my reads are highly accurate, and when I try to force a case too much it ends up being wrong. If I really wanted to I could bullshit a case in 45 minutes on how Dunn is obvious scum and needs to die today but it wouldn't mean I believed it or that it's more likely to be right. Why do I have to have a scumread I feel confident about on Day 1?

ughhh i butchered the quote blocks i'm sorry, EBWOP for readability

---

I literally just said we shouldn't vote you Day 1 so I don't know where you're getting the idea I'm trying to eliminate you. I would only push to eliminate you if you weren't NKed
-
I don't know where you'd get the idea I'd be able to effortlessly chain-elim GL and then you

I was not saying that I felt like you were trying to eliminate me. I specifically meant night kill me, and then use my town flip to elim GL.

Lmao

I mean, I get it, but that's still very silly.

Why do I have to have a scumread I feel confident about on Day 1?

My issue is that you seemed more confident in there being scum between me and GL, yet chose Dunn.

Your stated position is that you GL is one of the lower people in your reads, and that his flip would give you insight into me, so that seems like the direction that would be more natural.

But you didn't go that direction. Instead, you voted you weaker read, and punted the Luke/GL pair down the road.

I have other means of getting insight into you besides voting out GL. I felt at the time you were more likely to be scum than him so I wasn't keen on voting him out. (But maybe I'm wrong on you!). If push came to shove I might vote him, but as I've said, if there's a scum outside you two it makes perfect sense to me to try to find that scum first. If I vote one of you out and it's wrong that's bad, if I'm wrong on both of you it's probably a game-loing read. So to me it doesn't hurt to vote outside. Night actions/claims will potentially help clear you up, if we manage to flip scum outside you then we can see if that scum makes sense as a teammate with either of you.

I wouldn't say I was more confident on GL being scum, that doesn't accurately reflect my position. My read on Dunn isn't very strong, it's just the best I have currently.

I find catboi's take on Luke's interactions with the tvt thing surprisingly persuasive. I'm kind of wondering about how they're addressing push back though. They respond differently to pressure than I do though.

Don't know what you mean in particular by this.As far as my response goes, I'm trying to be more communicative for the most part. I think Luke's pushback on me is extremely goofy but it's not setting off the same "absolute bullshit" flags the last two times I saw him as scum. I'm bad at reading people who scumread me though, as I've stated. I can't tell if they're being reasonable or not because I'm biased on knowing my alignment. I usually just reflexively OMGUS if they're being annoying enough.

Dunn is obvious scum

I believe in my cat

LMAO you're evil for this one

{pooky, bell, meuh}
{cakez}
{Luke, GL}
{Dunn, Ydrasse}

I think that I am convincing myself that GL is town, and that catboi is positioning to eliminate him after killing me for being a tracker.

Both because he linked the two of us together in a way that seems disingenuous, but also in the same post of doing that just side stepped eliminating inside the pair entirely for the day.

Especially when reading 502, and his pivot into Dunn feels toothless, like it was just The Best Option Left. Not like he even thought his thoughts on Dunn were Good.

Luke, I want to revisit this. You're scumreading me here because my vote is "toothless", because I lack passion behind it.

Now, GL gets a pass for this because he doesn't know my scumgame and is making the common fallacy that me lacking energy is a scumtell. But you - you've seen my scumgame. Do you think I, at any time as scum, come across as dispassionate? As lacking the will to put conviction behind a push?

Dunn, I will move on you if you don’t suggest a better alternative in a better way.

I say as if power is something I have over anyone.

I think GL accusing Cakez of chainsawing me is moving into "hard to fathom as being the real belief of a town player" territory. It's enough in the territory that I would be okay with voting him today, because his arguments have gotten continually worse, and look more like he's trying to "score points" with every attack rather than attempting to discern a perspective or actually investigate alignments. (I think even if he's town the way he's playing right is outright anti-town, not because he's reading me wrong but because of him tunneling in a single-minded fashion where everything someone does only adds further fuel to the fire. I think if allowed to live he will harm the town regardless of his alignment. That's simply how I've come to view this type of play. I've been guilty of it many times in the past (no pun intended), and part of the reason I've been playing restrained this game is to try to curb that tendency. I think he absolutely should not be allowed leadership/agency in this game).

Luke is simply mad I dared to suspect him. He is probably town and gets resolved mechanically either way. I wish he would not play so emotionally, but at his core he's still the same newbie I flew off the handle at for deathtunneling me a couple years ago.

I think Ydrasse's contributions to the game have overall been minimal to non-existant. Her main reads have been to defend elle for getting flustered, and OMGUSing Cakez. The elle read is not really logical because scum get flustered all the time, and instead comes across as white-knighting a player who was an early push. The Cakez read is entirely reactive and can easily be scum motivated. Beyond that, she shaded me for suggesting I'd be okay voting elle, and then shaded luke for calling her town. This is all play that is merely reacting to major events going on in the thread and responding to them, it takes very little effort. It doesn't feel investigative, like she's actually parsing the game and trying to figure anything out - rather she's simply commenting on big things or things that mention her. I think she is actively procrastinating on contributing to the thread and this is more likely to come from scum who is struggling to manufacture content.

I think the reasons that have been given for her being town are not very good. Guiltylion is suggesting her feeling concerned about the thread vibes being against her is a towntell. I think this is not convincing because it's ultimately a "vibe-based" read that is related t attitude, and that thing can be faked, or maybe she was just legitimately feeling threatened. Dunn says she is more charismatic as mafia early - again, this is a vibe-based read that is really not convincing. Luke is town reading her because she made a joke on page 1 and because she is defending his slot. I think this is obviously terrible reasoning n face value. Early game gutreads are not very likely to be accurate, and townreading someone simply for defending you means you are highly likely to fall into a pocket. Scum defend players who otherwise look to be uncontested wagons all the time. I think he is biased because he disliked being run up so quickly upon entering the game (which to be fair is an entirely understandable response), and so has latched on to anyone he saw as being protective of him.

That's my reasoning for Ydrasse being scum, it could be wrong, I don't think my read accuracy is particularly special. I would still prefer to flip her or GL if I'm voted out today.

---

It's very hard for me to explain how I'm reading pooky but I simply get the feel he is being genuine every time he posts, the way he spoke about me felt unrestrained and like it was coming from a town perspective. Similarly, Bell getting irritated with Cakez for the E-1 thing felt real and he keeps making his contributions that are slightly snarky but insightful. I buy what he's doing as town motivated

Meuh slightly less confident on but nothing she's posted has felt like t was not from a genuine perspective to me, and I still lean on the miller claim as being +town.

Dunn I had more as potential scum for POE reasons and some fear he may have been buddying me, but historically I'm not great at reading him. I thought there was simply a chance he was being overlooked.

As for Cakez, I wish I had an answer for why he felt like voting me before writing this post but I still felt like the response he had to pressure was towny in terms of how he was seemingly challenging people about voting him. I am also historically not great at reading him so my confidence level is not high, but that is the best I can manage. I think if Ydrasse flips mafia he is basically always town and should be treated as an innocent child.

catboi you have paragraphs for why you suspect other people which I read and seems pretty convincing to me. Except for the part where you say we should eliminate "regardless of alignment" - that part I am not a fan of. And then you have sentences for me, saying poe, which doesn't even make sense if you have two other, better scumreads, and then "overlooked" which is based on what other people are doing.

I guess, yeah. I realize the justification for that read isn't great but I was basically spilling out as stream of consciousness, and that was all that came to mind. Maybe that means I should reconsider you, but I don't have a lot of things I can really point to that says anything about your alignment. I often don't really know how to read you and I don't think you've done anything obviously towny to me this game - which doesn't make you scum necessarily, I just can't really clear you.

As for the "regardless of alignment" thing - it's partly salty on my part, no way around it, but it's also a theory I have. I think when a town player is really overconfident and trying to aggressively steer the game, they're usually wrong and usually harmful. On self-reflection, that's where all my worst moments come from. I've witnessed other players run games into the ground by being ego-driven and steamrolling everyone who opposed them. I think GL is tipping close to that in terms of how he's handling me. (Luke also does this but like I can't really suggest policy killing him because I think he's probably town)

To be clear though I think this is an entirely viable model for scumplay and if GL as scum felt I was getting too threatening I could see him taking advantage of Luke here given he'd already laid he groundwork for pushing me.

Dunn can be town because he seems to earnestly care about convincing me I'm wrong on him when there's a chance I get voted out today, and I think if he's mafia he wouldn't care as much about trying to persuade me.

This is an experimental read I just made up, but I like the logic behind it.

after literally just playing against me as mafia feel like he should be more aware that this isnt my mafia game and also p sure he made a post earlier where hes like "when do i not have passion as a wolf" or something and like i can think of multiple times before where hes in fact been "down" or lower energy in games when it was beneficial so it's a nonpoint.

catboi, what do you think of this? Do you think it is a fair assessment?

The latter part is plausibly true but it was a game where I was struggling to keep up with a bunch of hyperposters and was AtE'ing to survive, which isn't really true in comparison to this.

I don't think her posting is meaningfully different from what I've seen of her scumgame, but like I'm not that good at this game so I could easily be wrong

If scum succeed at pushing me out today (which I now think probably happens because I underestimated how fickle certain people are), you two have to take charge of the game because it's a shitshow and I don't think anyone else knows how to find mafia

oh and work with dunn I guess - I'm still cautious about it but I think my last read on him makes sense and he knows how to cooperate

catboi you have 2 votes on you, you're not about to be eliminated

Both Luke and ydrasse are clearly willing to vote for me, cakez was toying with the possibility of voting me for ???reasons???. It's not hard to read the room and see there's support for eliminating me becaus I've pissed off half the game. I think you're the only one actually townreading me.

(If I squint and tilt my head, cakez so readily accepting the possibility of voting me when it became viable looks opportunistic. Maybe Bell is right there and I'm wrong, he has good instincts a lot of the time, I really don't know. You should probably trust someone else's judgment over mine).

I just...lack the will or the enthusiasm to fight off a wagon on me. I probably could do it but I'd have to get really mean to make it happen and I'm trying not to play that way. I don't think I'm so valuable to the town that I have to stay alive at all costs, I'm just a VT and I don't think my reads are anything special. Also when people tunnel me it more or less completely removes any chance I have of getting good reads, because I can't figure out if people pushing me are scum or just tunneled.

I see Luke replied to me but honestly I'm on the verge of passing out, I just wanted to address this before I went to sleep. hope this is reasonably coherent.

Preliminary reads based off what I've read so far:
Meuh — Probably town for claim; I don't think she would fakeclaim something like that
Pooky — Probably also town for claim
Dunn — I like their analysis, so maybe town
Luke — Null; I thought his predecessor was nullish and I haven't really caught up to when he starts posting
Bell — Null; Seems pretty chill, not sure what to make of it as I tend to associate town!Bell with being somewhat aggressive
GL — I've liked his early posts, so maybe nulltown?
Ydra — I feel like from her interactions with Cakez, they feel unaligned
Cakez — I tend to SR him because he usually feels scummy to me; I'm going to try to avoid confbiasing myself this time

Reading Luke's posts, I feel like his argument with catboi over the Dunn vote actually feel kinda towny. In that, it feels like he has genuine concern over catboi's motivations. And his 651 and 652 feel like he's trying to be nuanced, which doesn't really seem like something scum would do? Especially, since he could've take advantage of the increasing pressure.
But I'm leaning towards moving Luke up to my TRs.

i wasnt claiming venge and i think all of this like. stuff about it feels like wolves trying to react to something that literally isn't there
i'm vt
my flavor's catboi. this is why it was funnier before. i also did not want to claim because it's pretty easy now to narrow down what's left

I think this makes sense.

I don't think it makes them any more likely to be town though

True.
It's just that I thought Ydra's earlier statements made sense with the flavour claim.

I'm alright with mass claiming. Luke should probably claim what they saw first to verify their role.

This is a good idea.

I'm alright with mass claiming. Luke should probably claim what they saw first to verify their role.

i think luke should claim last in case he catches someone in a lie

Oh, maybe I should have fully read before I responded lol

At least, Dunn is confirmed to be a PR now.

TBH after Dunn claims, we should get Cakez to claim what PR he exactly is.

P-edit: TBH Beholder is a rare enough role that if Dunn actually is it, I'm going to question if it's a trueclaim.

I'm a 1-shot doctor

Flavor is Student Life's Mental Wellness Dogs

I targeted Lukewarm last night

That checks out, I guess?

I'm in co-op Baldur's gate, hence my terseness

I thought it strange that RH9 went straight to Beholder before I could claim my role

Cakez (I think?) was asking for plausible scum roles that would target Doc.
Beholder was one of them.

I do think 1073 is a weird perspective to have if you are a VT. I get that you will say that it slipped your mind but how?

I said 2 VTs as a reaction test to see if scum would take the bait and treat it as a slip, which seemed to have happened.
I feel like it might've gotten a bit out of hand, though.

One of my initial thoughts was that scum could have neapolitan, and that a miller would mess with their results rather than cop results, but that seems kinda silly? With no cop claim, I'm inclined to think they're just named townies at this point? No clue if this lines up with what Prism would do as a mod though

So, it'd figure one of Dunn/Cakez/GL isn't telling the truth, then?
Because Luke had no way of faking a result on Dunn, given he claimed first.

also his approach is not as townie as the other two

As in after the massclaim?
Because, you could be right on this.
The way Cakez has interacted with claims does feel townier than Dunn's.
(Though, I could biased in that I feel like if all PR claims are town, that means Mafia's basically hoping Luke wastes his last track on the PR claims. And that'd have to mean scum are doing pretty well at not getting any attention.)

I agree Luke's claim has to be town at this point because there's not enough town power otherwise

I'm thinking either

1) Cakez just trueclaimed his role as a scum RB
or
2) Dunn is some kind of scum investigative that targeted Luke

what's extra wonk is that neither Cakez nor Dunn see any issue with eachother's claims

I think at least to Dunn's credit he is just coming off kind of obtuse whereas Cakez pivoted from "scum in the PRs" to just immediately accepting Dunn's claim - feels like he may be strategically positioning and not wanting to make an enemy out of Dunn

This is a good point.
Dunn has been consistently been saying 'PRs are Town' (for reasons which I still don't agree with) but Cakez has only really been 'scum in RH9/GL' but he went from 'scum in Meuh/Dunn/Luke' to 'scum prob just Meuh' (given he seems to be TRing Pooky).
Eh. Maybe this really is a scum!Cakez world, after all.
Though, if Cakez is scum, then I'm stuck on who's his partner other than maybe the Miller claims.

I think rn I'm at one of Cakez/GL is scum along with one of the Millers.
P-edit: Maybe it could be GL/Dunn.

Eh.
Now I think about it, Cakez only makes sense as scum with Pooky.

And I don't think Pooky is scum.

At least, Pooky has came across as genuinely concerned town quite a bit.

I think the only way I live to tomorrow (to bring my second result) is if dunn is town, and 2-shot, and lied about being 1 shot in order to bait the kill into me.

Which is honestly the smart way for him to play being 2 shot.

And kind of smarter then a 1-shot dunn true claiming being 1-shot. (Actually 1-shot dunn should have claimed x-shot).

And dunn should probably not react to this post either.

I don't think Dunn is a gambity sort of player?
I might be wrong but the way Dunn's been playing makes me think it's unlikely he's 2-shot.
At best, we can hope Cakez is town and has not yet used his rb.

If you think that then it's weird that you are suspecting me after I got tracked to Lukewarm

I think you trueclaimed.
Your play makes only real sense if you really were 1-shot.

I kind of think we just yeet GuiltyLion here I believe in all my PRs

I guess this is OK with me.

what do you mean you guess? the alternative is you lol

Because there's still wagons on you/Dunn?
And chances are it's going to be between me/you/GL.

Dunn, don't you see?

He thinks you could be a true claiming, scum-aligned, 1-shot doctor (in a game with no Vigilante) who used their 1 shot to protect the town tracker.

That is not what I've been saying.
I'm saying that Dunn is probably trueclaiming the 1-shot aspect if he is really a town doc.

If you think that then it's weird that you are suspecting me after I got tracked to Lukewarm

I think you trueclaimed.
Your play makes only real sense if you really were 1-shot.

I can't tell if you are calling me town here, but if you are I feel like you were speculating that I may have been mafia earlier

Well. I felt like you could be scum, due to the fact that Cakez barely makes sense as scum with half of everybody but like you and Pooky.
And Pooky hasn't felt like scum to me, so reasonably this limits scum to you/GL/Cakez/Meuh.
However, I have been thinking that Cakez can actually be Town and I've been mindmelding with Meuh, leaving the scumpool to you/GL.
On the other hand, your play if town, makes more sense coming from a world where you trueclaimed than one where you're playing elaborate mindgames like Luke has been suggesting.

I kind of think we just yeet GuiltyLion here I believe in all my PRs

I guess this is OK with me.

what do you mean you guess? the alternative is you lol

Because there's still wagons on you/Dunn?
And chances are it's going to be between me/you/GL.

OK.
Maybe this is going to end up with what you've been saying.

To expand on my point in 1266, it is weird to me that RH9 has an impression of me that I don't gambit, but does not seem to be considering that when thinking I could be mafia. I think that if RH9 is being truthful, they should look at Luke's track result on me and conclude that I am more likely town than not, because to them I would have to be gambitting to be mafia.

Now that I am thinking about this, they also very quickly jumped to saying I might fake claim beholder at the start of the day. Doesn't this also contradict their thinking here, since that would be a gambit?

I

did not

suggest you fakeclaim Beholder.
Stop reframing the narrative.
I suggested Beholder is a

plausible scum role

you could have and

target Luke with

.
And anyways scum claiming doctor when tracked to the tracker is not gambity at all.
It's just what scum would do, since it's the most believable claim.

I wanna delve into this more at some point but reading through these interactions, I think this is a very plausible team here tbh
Catboi does scumread and vote Dunn early on but then throws out an "experimental read" on Dunn being town that he sticks to, and he has no problem shifting to Ydra instead
RH9 starts with a soft townread on Dunn, then shifts to questioning him more when the thread leans that way (notably with Pooky saying he was the most likely PR to be lying and me pushing Dunn), but is also willing to consider Cakez actually being scum instead when GL brings it up. Issue is that a lot of RH9's reads were influenced by the whims of the thread, so I don't really think his shifts here look super bad in terms of being paired with Dunn (though it definitely doesn't unpair them)
RH9 slot/Cakez doesn't really make sense to me either, Cakez' interactions with both Catboi and RH9 don't look paired at all to me
and I'm doubtful on GL/RH9 or Pooky/RH9 for mech reasons (although the latter is a bit more feasible)
Maybe that's just it

[Meuh]

VOTE: RH9 E-1

im so tempted to yeet this without a replacement

but what if it blows up in my face

wolfy poppins

Pretty sure that was a cat, not a wolf

ok ms catwolf

VOTE: Meuh

Yeah maybe that's just it

[Meuh]

Spoiler:

Your annoyance at cakez and his vote was the thing that scared me a little bit on him because I can see him doing the overtly scummy thing as scum b/c he just doesn't care. However I've committed myself to shielding him for today, even if it makes me look foolish.

Also I think ydrasse is significantly scummier than cakez and I don't think they're ever a team so I'd want to flip her before him always. But that's just my opinion.

catboi I want to say is town but I'm worried he may be trying to pocket me so idk. Wouldn't vote rn but definitely not safe town

look i'm just trying to save you from being misyeeted for once in your career

ok well I appreciate you if you're town here <3
but if you're scum

I think GL accusing Cakez of chainsawing me is moving into "hard to fathom as being the real belief of a town player" territory. It's enough in the territory that I would be okay with voting him today, because his arguments have gotten continually worse, and look more like he's trying to "score points" with every attack rather than attempting to discern a perspective or actually investigate alignments. (I think even if he's town the way he's playing right is outright anti-town, not because he's reading me wrong but because of him tunneling in a single-minded fashion where everything someone does only adds further fuel to the fire. I think if allowed to live he will harm the town regardless of his alignment. That's simply how I've come to view this type of play. I've been guilty of it many times in the past (no pun intended), and part of the reason I've been playing restrained this game is to try to curb that tendency. I think he absolutely should not be allowed leadership/agency in this game).

Luke is simply mad I dared to suspect him. He is probably town and gets resolved mechanically either way. I wish he would not play so emotionally, but at his core he's still the same newbie I flew off the handle at for deathtunneling me a couple years ago.

I think Ydrasse's contributions to the game have overall been minimal to non-existant. Her main reads have been to defend elle for getting flustered, and OMGUSing Cakez. The elle read is not really logical because scum get flustered all the time, and instead comes across as white-knighting a player who was an early push. The Cakez read is entirely reactive and can easily be scum motivated. Beyond that, she shaded me for suggesting I'd be okay voting elle, and then shaded luke for calling her town. This is all play that is merely reacting to major events going on in the thread and responding to them, it takes very little effort. It doesn't feel investigative, like she's actually parsing the game and trying to figure anything out - rather she's simply commenting on big things or things that mention her. I think she is actively procrastinating on contributing to the thread and this is more likely to come from scum who is struggling to manufacture content.

I think the reasons that have been given for her being town are not very good. Guiltylion is suggesting her feeling concerned about the thread vibes being against her is a towntell. I think this is not convincing because it's ultimately a "vibe-based" read that is related t attitude, and that thing can be faked, or maybe she was just legitimately feeling threatened. Dunn says she is more charismatic as mafia early - again, this is a vibe-based read that is really not convincing. Luke is town reading her because she made a joke on page 1 and because she is defending his slot. I think this is obviously terrible reasoning n face value. Early game gutreads are not very likely to be accurate, and townreading someone simply for defending you means you are highly likely to fall into a pocket. Scum defend players who otherwise look to be uncontested wagons all the time. I think he is biased because he disliked being run up so quickly upon entering the game (which to be fair is an entirely understandable response), and so has latched on to anyone he saw as being protective of him.

That's my reasoning for Ydrasse being scum, it could be wrong, I don't think my read accuracy is particularly special. I would still prefer to flip her or GL if I'm voted out today.

---

It's very hard for me to explain how I'm reading pooky but I simply get the feel he is being genuine every time he posts, the way he spoke about me felt unrestrained and like it was coming from a town perspective. Similarly, Bell getting irritated with Cakez for the E-1 thing felt real and he keeps making his contributions that are slightly snarky but insightful. I buy what he's doing as town motivated

Meuh slightly less confident on but nothing she's posted has felt like t was not from a genuine perspective to me, and I still lean on the miller claim as being +town.

Dunn I had more as potential scum for POE reasons and some fear he may have been buddying me, but historically I'm not great at reading him. I thought there was simply a chance he was being overlooked.

As for Cakez, I wish I had an answer for why he felt like voting me before writing this post but I still felt like the response he had to pressure was towny in terms of how he was seemingly challenging people about voting him. I am also historically not great at reading him so my confidence level is not high, but that is the best I can manage. I think if Ydrasse flips mafia he is basically always town and should be treated as an innocent child.

I guess as a pure spitball guess GL/Cakez isn't impossible, at least off the top of my head

catboi the reason I was/am considering voting you is because your reaction to the recent pressure on you has felt off tonally, it feels like way more concerned with the votes then I feel like you'd normally respond as town. I mean just look at the last two pages - I feel like that claim was really dramatic and unprompted and it doesn't feel organic.

As for me "not actively trying to sort you" - you weren't here, dude. What are you expecting me to do when you're not posting in the game? Why do you think I didn't just vote you? I mean, probably because I'm still trying to sort you?

Now, GL gets a pass for this because he doesn't know my scumgame and is making the common fallacy that me lacking energy is a scumtell. But you - you've seen my scumgame. Do you think I, at any time as scum, come across as dispassionate? As lacking the will to put conviction behind a push?

like these are just gut feels really but this kinda felt like scum indignance at being pushed for something he thinks is NAI

Not primarily real time, more of a "wait and see" player. You were absent for a day and the most relevant stuff was seeing how you would respond to luke and what you'd do after that. I certainly don't feel like me voting you would have helped anything and I had nothing in particular I wanted to ask you.

I dunno, you're free to choose to not believe me if you want. I'm not that worried because I don't think I'll actually go over today. If you actually want to figure out if my read is genuine, ask me questions about it?

here's another example, this is one of those vibes where i can't really describe it that well, but like stuff like "you're free to choose not to believe me if you want" feels like such a weird thing to say from a catboi town PoV where he has indicated some suspicion of GL already

EBWOP - had one quote twice

but this is tough because I don't think catboi/GL make any sense as scum together and I also find things independently scummy from GL

but this is tough because I don't think catboi/GL make any sense as scum together and I also find things independently scummy from GL

How is that tough? Just kill the one you suspect more of being scum individually.

its tough because i find them independently scummy but them not being SvS means even if I'm right there's still another scum out there and I just keep going through the playerlist and being like who tf is scum this game

we have:
pooky and meuh the miller claims
luke who claimed pr
ydra who im really stuck with and keep going back and forth on
dunn who I think is playing like town here
and then you and honestly I don't know what to think about you this game Bell but I wouldn't vote you today

catboi the reason I was/am considering voting you is because your reaction to the recent pressure on you has felt off tonally, it feels like way more concerned with the votes then I feel like you'd normally respond as town. I mean just look at the last two pages - I feel like that claim was really dramatic and unprompted and it doesn't feel organic.

this is very par for the course

viewtopic.php?t=88098
viewtopic.php?t=87197
viewtopic.php?t=89595

Preliminary reads based off what I've read so far:
Meuh — Probably town for claim; I don't think she would fakeclaim something like that
Pooky — Probably also town for claim
Dunn — I like their analysis, so maybe town
Luke — Null; I thought his predecessor was nullish and I haven't really caught up to when he starts posting
Bell — Null; Seems pretty chill, not sure what to make of it as I tend to associate town!Bell with being somewhat aggressive
GL — I've liked his early posts, so maybe nulltown?
Ydra — I feel like from her interactions with Cakez, they feel unaligned
Cakez — I tend to SR him because he usually feels scummy to me; I'm going to try to avoid confbiasing myself this time

Does GL/Ydra make sense?? Is that a thing?

Well, I guess

if

Bell is town, that could be possible. And unless I've just been bamboozled and you/Ydra actually is a possible team, then it's likely either you/GL or Ydra/GL.
However, I had liked GL's early game, so I'm still uncertain rn between him and Bell. (I've felt that Bell has been appearing progressively towny in their ISO.)

Unhelpfully, I think I just tend to lean into TRing GL's posting style, so I probably won't vote for him today.
I'll reaccess Cakez/Ydra, just in case.

Unhelpfully, I think I just tend to lean into TRing GL's posting style, so I probably won't vote for him today.
I'll reaccess Cakez/Ydra, just in case.

As in Cakez/Ydra as a team, in case my preliminary read on them being unaligned was wrong.

TBH, what Luke said about Cakez being opportunistic was similar to something I had contemplated last night.
I'm just unsure if it's because he was trying to look out for an easy mislim or he genuinely SRed catboi and was willing to compromise on a non-GL wagon.

The thing is though, Cakez didn't really seem to express an SR on catboi until a wagon was becoming viable.

Maybe, I'm overthinking this but I would probably go for Cakez over Ydra rn.

You know what, maybe I should put my vote where my mouth is.
VOTE: Cakez

The thing is though, Cakez didn't really seem to express an SR on catboi until a wagon was becoming viable.

well obviously because catboi didn't become scummy until a wagon formed on him

actually no Bell is on me ofc lol so E-1

I thought you were on E-2?
Bell's voting Ydra, I'm pretty sure.

Though, Ydra was interested in voting you.

actually no Bell is on me ofc lol so E-1

I thought you were on E-2?
Bell's voting Ydra, I'm pretty sure.

oh, i didn't see the shift

Though, Ydra was interested in voting you.

yeah this is the dilemma catboi ended up in where he only had two votes I think but enough people were like "i'd vote him" that he felt a lot more pressure than that. or so he claimed at least.

yeah this is the dilemma catboi ended up in where he only had two votes I think but enough people were like "i'd vote him" that he felt a lot more pressure than that. or so he claimed at least.

I guess this is true.

sircakez and i being the two main wagons both on gl is very funny

That's the thing that's making me question if scum!you would rather choose to go for GL, who's unlikely to get limmed over putting Cakez on E-1 to save yourself.

VOTE: meuh
I don't think there are two millers this game. Stuff isn't adding up.

VOTE: Cakez
I don't like how he immediately went for Meuh.

Why do people object to my Meuh vote

Basically what Meuh has said.
Especially when you seemed perfectly fine with Meuh until today.
Like what happened to your read on GL?

Has anyone mentioned the mysterious disappearance of Cakez' GL scumread?

I've brought it up.

BTW, what do you make of Cakez's claim that he's a PR?

TBH after Dunn claims, we should get Cakez to claim what PR he exactly is.

VOTE: rh9
our work here is done

Cakez, do you still think Meuh is scum?

I'm in co-op Baldur's gate, hence my terseness

I thought it strange that RH9 went straight to Beholder before I could claim my role

Cakez (I think?) was asking for plausible scum roles that would target Doc.
Beholder was one of them.

I find it really hard to believe that RH9 was reaction testing

idk something about RH9 being SO honest about his VT slip almost makes me think it actually was town?? Like this is some shit I'd pull after forgetting half my role or something and slipping. I just don't even know what to make of this.

RH9 who do you think is scum?

At the beginning of this day, I thought it was Cakez but with his claim, I'm starting to get why he went after Meuh.
Because, honestly now it does feel a bit weird that there's no Cop but two Miller claims.
Feels like something doesn't add up. As it means assuming all claims are truthful, there's 4 VTs, 2 Named Townies (in that the Millers effectively serve as this without a Cop), a 2-shot Tracker, a 1-shot Doc and a 1-shot Roleblocker.
I'm thinking I need to re-evaluate the Miller claims rn.
Because those no longer feel as towny as they did before Cakez claimed. (Assuming Cakez is telling the truth.)
That said, I should probably UNVOTE: Cakez while I think about things.

So really, I think scum are in Pooky/Meuh/Cakez.

Dunn I agree the three of us are town. That means probably one scum in the two VT claims and one in the millers. I currently think Meuh and going back and forth on RH9 and GL.

also his approach is not as townie as the other two

As in after the massclaim?
Because, you could be right on this.
The way Cakez has interacted with claims does feel townier than Dunn's.
(Though, I could biased in that I feel like if all PR claims are town, that means Mafia's basically hoping Luke wastes his last track on the PR claims. And that'd have to mean scum are doing pretty well at not getting any attention.)

I agree Luke's claim has to be town at this point because there's not enough town power otherwise

I'm thinking either

1) Cakez just trueclaimed his role as a scum RB
or
2) Dunn is some kind of scum investigative that targeted Luke

what's extra wonk is that neither Cakez nor Dunn see any issue with eachother's claims

I think at least to Dunn's credit he is just coming off kind of obtuse whereas Cakez pivoted from "scum in the PRs" to just immediately accepting Dunn's claim - feels like he may be strategically positioning and not wanting to make an enemy out of Dunn

This is a good point.
Dunn has been consistently been saying 'PRs are Town' (for reasons which I still don't agree with) but Cakez has only really been 'scum in RH9/GL' but he went from 'scum in Meuh/Dunn/Luke' to 'scum prob just Meuh' (given he seems to be TRing Pooky).
Eh. Maybe this really is a scum!Cakez world, after all.
Though, if Cakez is scum, then I'm stuck on who's his partner other than maybe the Miller claims.

I think rn I'm at one of Cakez/GL is scum along with one of the Millers.
P-edit: Maybe it could be GL/Dunn.

Eh.
Now I think about it, Cakez only makes sense as scum with Pooky.

I think we should eliminate in the Miller or VT claims today

If both scum are in the PR/Miller claims then that would make both GL and RH9 town and I find that very hard to believe lol

I kind of think we just yeet GuiltyLion here I believe in all my PRs

I guess this is OK with me.

what do you mean you guess? the alternative is you lol

Because there's still wagons on you/Dunn?
And chances are it's going to be between me/you/GL.

If you think that then it's weird that you are suspecting me after I got tracked to Lukewarm

I think you trueclaimed.
Your play makes only real sense if you really were 1-shot.

I can't tell if you are calling me town here, but if you are I feel like you were speculating that I may have been mafia earlier

Well. I felt like you could be scum, due to the fact that Cakez barely makes sense as scum with half of everybody but like you and Pooky.
And Pooky hasn't felt like scum to me, so reasonably this limits scum to you/GL/Cakez/Meuh.
However, I have been thinking that Cakez can actually be Town and I've been mindmelding with Meuh, leaving the scumpool to you/GL.
On the other hand, your play if town, makes more sense coming from a world where you trueclaimed than one where you're playing elaborate mindgames like Luke has been suggesting.

I'd vote any of GL/RH9/Meuh

RH9 buddy can you let me know how you got from

So really, I think scum are in Pooky/Meuh/Cakez.

to

I kind of think we just yeet GuiltyLion here I believe in all my PRs

I guess this is OK with me.

My read on Cakez changed.
And GL moved back into my PoE, as I realised I had no reason to leave him out of it.

Yeah I'm down to yeet RH9 slot. I think I'm still voting there too?

VOTE: meuh whatever i feel like this is the best shot of hitting scum rn
GL vs RH9 feels like a coinflip
Pooky has read very town to me for pretty much the whole game
And then I've already talked about why I think Luke and Dunn are town

My main takeaway from looking at these interactions is Cakez being town tbh, more than any takeaway about being paired with RH9
This is possibly paired I guess? I think RH9's treatment of Ydra/Cakez looks kind of unpaired with Cakez though. The interactions there don't fit it and RH9's positioning makes more sense as scum not caring about who gets limmed than scum paired with Cakez, I'd say. There's also little bits here and there that look unpaired (RH9 being unsure if it was Cakez or someone else who asked him something, Catboi replying to Cakez with a bunch of game links) that add up in my eyes.

[Meuh]

I bet it was

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Wicked

[Meuh]

Now seemingly out of nowhere, when pressure has shifted to Meuh, and it is looking like the elim is either Rh9 slot or Meuh, they suddenly scumread Rh9 slot and point back to their iso to do so.

Did you want me to stare into the void and say "this is why RH9 is scum" instead of looking at his ISO

[Meuh]

I think your read on RH9 changing is motivated by self preservation rather than reevaluation.

You first went to their iso to quote where you were mind melding, and then only later stated that when you did so you started scumreading them.

Okay but why is that my process here if scum?
This would be logical if when I quoted those posts yesterday, I was sitting comfortable, not likely to be limmed... and then suddenly there was a massive push on me!!!!!
I would then opportunistically push for RH9 being scum to save myself!!!! How evil!!!! How nefarious!!!!!
But that's not what happened? I already had a bunch of votes at that point, the reason for me to push RH9 was already there
Why would I, as scum, be there yesterday and not push RH9, and then today be like "hmm I will invent a scumread here, because I'm definitely more incentivised to do this now than I was before"
Or is your point literally just "omg Meuh had a thought she didn't post???? fake!!!!" did you just see something vaguely odd to poke at and then poked at it? Or do you have an actual reason to think this is scummy in the slightest

[Meuh]

My thoughts simmer and develop! These ideas develop even when I'm not actively posting! When I take a walk, when I take a shower, when I'm bored in class!

[Meuh]

I do think 1073 is a weird perspective to have if you are a VT. I get that you will say that it slipped your mind but how?

I do think 1073 is a weird perspective to have if you are a VT. I get that you will say that it slipped your mind but how?

I said 2 VTs as a reaction test to see if scum would take the bait and treat it as a slip, which seemed to have happened.
I feel like it might've gotten a bit out of hand, though.

If I were mafia with RH9 I'd like to believe that this exchange wouldn't have happened.

Why? What about this is unpaired

[Meuh]

To be fair, you voicing that read did help me see it in my own reflections, it's not like I got there entirely on my own.
Though I suppose the angle of "oh shit, the mindmeld was just a symptom of the way RH9 approached the game and actually isn't very meaningful" and the shift I had regarding that is more unique to me

[Meuh]

Wait wtf I thought I was already being wagoned by that point yesterday, it shifted to me really quickly damn

[Meuh]

Ok then yeah Dunn's point there holds some water
I thought I was already the leading wagon. The idea that I would hold off on the read when there hadn't been a major shift between the mindmeld thing and today was weird to me

Pedit: I never disagreed with the notion that scum!me would scumread RH here (I think it'd be beneficial), my issue was with Dunn pointing at the timing of it, as I didn't see why me only doing it now (rather than yesterday) would actually have made more sense

[Meuh]

You guys are so good at the game, believe in yourselves!

[Meuh]

Cmon guys get to voting!!

[Meuh]

I wish we would hammer I don't think there's much more solving to be done here without a flip

Cakez like you thought here, isn't the idea of getting a flip here sooooooo nice? You can put someone on E-1!!

[Meuh]

I think if theres a mafia in the three PRs it would have to be Dunnstral for balance reasons

what did dunn do to luke at night then aside from visit?

I think if Dunn is scum is maybe an investigative like rolecop or tracker and Luke outing meant his role didn't have any real utility so it was worth building a plausible claim in the event that he's tracked

I do think tracker + RBer is a lot of power in the event scum dies D1, maybe both scum have PRs

We didn't mass claim on day 1. If I were a mafia tracker/rolecop I'd be looking for other town power roles. It's not true that my role wouldn't have utility. Also I think your full theory here, that I gambitted my power role and then bussed my buddy is convoluted and reaching for a reason to call me mafia rather than coming to a natural conclusion.

I think you targeting Luke as a tracker/rolecop isn’t really much of a gambit here?
Checking anyone else and getting tracked would end up with the question of “why did you visit them?” If you claim protective, it’s weird af you didn’t target Luke. if you claim investigative, you’re forced to give some sort of result and you probably get limmed since Luke’s also claiming investigative. So what you could claim is pretty limited. Considering we had 2 miller claims and a VT claim, the odds of you being tracked were pretty high, and when weighing the utility of an investigative check vs being potentially seen visiting Luke, picking the second option isn’t very gambity. (Especially if you were a rolecop and could get solid information on Luke’s shot count as an extra bonus)

[Meuh]

I wish we would hammer I don't think there's much more solving to be done here without a flip

Cakez like you thought here, isn't the idea of getting a flip here sooooooo nice? You can put someone on E-1!!

what r u talking about who can cakez put on e-1

I think they are trying to trick SirCakez into hammering Alisae by acting like they are at e-2. That is how I am reading this at least.

Thought it was 5 to lim if I’m being real, those posts asking for the votes were spur of the moment

[Meuh]

I feel like every once in a while someone checks in and goes “Meuh/Dunn, amirite?” and that makes me think Dunn is even more likely to be scum, cause scum would adoreeeeee lumping me in there and getting me as a mislim at some point (I think Pooky, Cakez, elle, and now GL have all pushed it?)

[Meuh]

Quietly hoping that the wagon will lose steam on its own is not all that uncommon for scum to do imo.

as a general rule I disagree with this because I think scum usually feel pressured to Have a Stance on their partner as they understand people are gonna be going back and looking at people's reads on the flipped scum. if Meuh is doing buddies with RH9 here she was keeping him in a very null-y tier:

I think Pooky flips scum more than RH9 at this point, but I probably should give a closer look to his ISO.

Dunn > GL > Pooky > RH9 > Cakez > Lukewarm
My lim preference at the moment

I guess it's possible she's just trying to coast and skate by without a firm read on her buddy but I am not sensing a real agenda positioning around an upcoming incriminating flip. she was advocating (somewhat strongly) that Dunn/I were the scum team and in the RH9/Meuh world that theory would be immediately dead when either of us green flipped.

I think the Meuh/Dunn interactions are much more likely to be S-S given how decisively Meuh was pushing Dunn earlier yet how much that's tapered off (despite her still claiming to scumread him).

and if Dunn is scum then chaining me to him makes sense too

What am I supposed to do??? Push Dunn and scream into the void about how he’s scum? People pretty clearly weren’t interested in doing Dunn, I’d still adore it but I also don’t wanna waste my time pushing for Dunn when no one else wants it to happen

[Meuh]

Like Lukewarm disagreed with me on Dunn, I didn’t find the counter-point compelling but my response to it didn’t change his mind, and he seems to think Cakez is more likely to flip scum here?
Cakez has just been sitting there saying the PR claims are good
Pooky was actually shading Dunn and saying his claim was the most likely to be fake and then just went “oh actually I believe in all the PR claims ”
RH9 seemed willing to believe Dunn could be scum but his reads were super fickle and he didn’t have a strong view on Dunn
Pretty sure you’re the only one who was like “yeah, scum definitely flips in the PRs” but weren’t you pushing that Cakez was scum?
Where’s the wagon? What would be the point of me pushing for Dunn being scum?? Especially since a lot of people are clearing him on mech, which is a lot harder to actually convince someone they’re wrong on (tracker/rb/doc would be very unbalanced here but obviously some people disagree)

[Meuh]

One of my initial thoughts was that scum could have neapolitan, and that a miller would mess with their results rather than cop results, but that seems kinda silly? With no cop claim, I'm inclined to think they're just named townies at this point? No clue if this lines up with what Prism would do as a mod though

So, it'd figure one of Dunn/Cakez/GL isn't telling the truth, then?
Because Luke had no way of faking a result on Dunn, given he claimed first.

I mean at least one of them isn't if you/Pooky are actual Millers.

In this neapolitan world, Luke could fake a result on Dunn if they were both scum, but that would leave Cakez as the only town PR and that's not very balanced. I don't think we live in a neapolitan world though if I'm being real

In general, I think the only world where Luke is scum is a world where Dunn and/or Cakez are lying about the amount of shots they have? 1-shot doc + 1-shot rber seems kinda weak? But also I could theoretically see someone see millers as named townies and that somehow swinging balance back to about even, so meh.

I'm thinking Pooky's just town, and Cakez' play around the claims actually looks fairly good here. Page 42/43 look good for them both. So maybe it's just Dunn/GL? I think you can be scum but I don't see it right now
Though what power would scum!Dunn use on Luke? Rolecops do see initial shot count in a check as far as I know, so maybe scum would want to gauge it?

Dunn why did you claim specifically the 1-shot aspect of your role

did you consider withholding the number of uses

I did consider doing that but valued true claiming for figuring out the setup and if other claimed roles are real.

That and I didn't want to cause problems if fake claiming led to people questioning my role, like if there were another gated protective role in the setup.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
I think there's a fair chance that's the thought process Dunn genuinely had here, but as scum
Claiming full doctor or a doctor with more than a shot would be bad if there was an actual town protective. At first I thought this discouraged GL/Dunn because GL hadn't claimed yet and Dunn has no reason to fear a scum!GL claim, but Cakez also hadn't claimed, but DID allude to being a PR

I'm even more suspicious as Luke has claimed he found yet another PR, which, two millers, another visiting PR, Luke

and my role

seems absurd. We should probably mass claim, someone in the PR claims is lying.

I'm alright with mass claiming. Luke should probably claim what they saw first to verify their role.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Like I did the math
I'm not a VT, to clarify what I've been alluding to. So if all the PR claims + Luke's track PR are legit that would make the setup

Ydrasse VT
Bell VT
Pooky Miller
Meuh Miller
Luke 2shot Tracker
Me non-VT
Whoever Luke tracked visiting someone
Scum
Scum

That doesn't look like a legit setup to me, thus why I think in the PR claims there are scum, either whoever Luke tracked or in the millers or potentially Luke himself. Like was said we can check him now with his claimed target.

Luke claims to have seen a visit -> Cakez claims non-VT, not the specific role -> Dunn insists Lukewarm should claim before everyone else -> Lukewarm does claim -> Dunn claims a low-power town role that even he himself noticed wouldn't contradict ANOTHER town protective claim (??? Why is this a thought he would even have as town, if I'm a 1-shot doc in a setup with a 2-shot tracker I'm not thinking there's another protective somewhere)
He's just scum and his play around the claims lines up entirely with what a scum player who visited last night would want to do here

VOTE: Dunnstral

Like there you go, this is why Dunn is scum, still applies now

[Meuh]

Open question to the Player List:

If you were choosing between only Catboi/RH/Ali Slot and Cakez, which would you choose?

I’d stick to Alisae

[Meuh]

It’s just Dunn Pooky stop infighting

[Meuh]

And look at the Luke flip. It lines up with Dunn and I's claims.

In what way does Luke’s flip change anything that was literally his claim

[Meuh]

Maybe Dunn/GL but it’s Dunn either way

[Meuh]

One of my initial thoughts was that scum could have neapolitan, and that a miller would mess with their results rather than cop results, but that seems kinda silly? With no cop claim, I'm inclined to think they're just named townies at this point? No clue if this lines up with what Prism would do as a mod though

So, it'd figure one of Dunn/Cakez/GL isn't telling the truth, then?
Because Luke had no way of faking a result on Dunn, given he claimed first.

I mean at least one of them isn't if you/Pooky are actual Millers.

In this neapolitan world, Luke could fake a result on Dunn if they were both scum, but that would leave Cakez as the only town PR and that's not very balanced. I don't think we live in a neapolitan world though if I'm being real

In general, I think the only world where Luke is scum is a world where Dunn and/or Cakez are lying about the amount of shots they have? 1-shot doc + 1-shot rber seems kinda weak? But also I could theoretically see someone see millers as named townies and that somehow swinging balance back to about even, so meh.

I'm thinking Pooky's just town, and Cakez' play around the claims actually looks fairly good here. Page 42/43 look good for them both. So maybe it's just Dunn/GL? I think you can be scum but I don't see it right now
Though what power would scum!Dunn use on Luke? Rolecops do see initial shot count in a check as far as I know, so maybe scum would want to gauge it?

Dunn why did you claim specifically the 1-shot aspect of your role

did you consider withholding the number of uses

I did consider doing that but valued true claiming for figuring out the setup and if other claimed roles are real.

That and I didn't want to cause problems if fake claiming led to people questioning my role, like if there were another gated protective role in the setup.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
I think there's a fair chance that's the thought process Dunn genuinely had here, but as scum
Claiming full doctor or a doctor with more than a shot would be bad if there was an actual town protective. At first I thought this discouraged GL/Dunn because GL hadn't claimed yet and Dunn has no reason to fear a scum!GL claim, but Cakez also hadn't claimed, but DID allude to being a PR

I'm even more suspicious as Luke has claimed he found yet another PR, which, two millers, another visiting PR, Luke

and my role

seems absurd. We should probably mass claim, someone in the PR claims is lying.

I'm alright with mass claiming. Luke should probably claim what they saw first to verify their role.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Like I did the math
I'm not a VT, to clarify what I've been alluding to. So if all the PR claims + Luke's track PR are legit that would make the setup

Ydrasse VT
Bell VT
Pooky Miller
Meuh Miller
Luke 2shot Tracker
Me non-VT
Whoever Luke tracked visiting someone
Scum
Scum

That doesn't look like a legit setup to me, thus why I think in the PR claims there are scum, either whoever Luke tracked or in the millers or potentially Luke himself. Like was said we can check him now with his claimed target.

Luke claims to have seen a visit -> Cakez claims non-VT, not the specific role -> Dunn insists Lukewarm should claim before everyone else -> Lukewarm does claim -> Dunn claims a low-power town role that even he himself noticed wouldn't contradict ANOTHER town protective claim (??? Why is this a thought he would even have as town, if I'm a 1-shot doc in a setup with a 2-shot tracker I'm not thinking there's another protective somewhere)
He's just scum and his play around the claims lines up entirely with what a scum player who visited last night would want to do here

VOTE: Dunnstral

Like there you go, this is why Dunn is scum, still applies now

Still applies, Dunn’s play around the claims is plainly scummy
Luke’s angle on Dunn being town is that he was faking 1-shot to trick scum
He clearly wasn’t

[Meuh]

Dunn literally fucking said he trueclaimed because he didn’t want another PR claim to CC and think the power level is too high, and then get limmed
This is not how a townie thinks about claiming??????? What the actual fuck???

[Meuh]

The main argument that got raised as a counter to my case against Dunn is that there was intent in his claim to trick scum and that he actually had multiple shots
To me, Dunn’s play pretty clearly showed that he wasn’t playing mindgames and that he was really claiming 1-shot, RH9 agreed with me on it! Luke also wanted Dunn to live as a way to prevent his death. The main reasons to keep Dunn alive (avoiding a Luke NK, Dunn potentially being 2-shot) are gone now. He’s the most blatant scum in history.

[Meuh]

i lowkey kind of think it isnt dunn now

Wasn’t your stance yesterday that all the PRs are real anyways? This wouldn’t be a change lmao

[Meuh]

It’s just Dunn Pooky stop infighting

Yesterday you said that mafia were trying to pair you and me together. This does not seem to line up with that theory.

What?

Pooky why aren't you sus of Meuh

I am sus of meuh

esp if dunnstral flips baddie

I kind of believed Catboi's read of "meuh wouldn't gambit" except I can tots see Dunnstral telling meuh to gambit the shit out of this game

okay so if Dunn flips scum she's next

okay so if Dunn flips scum she's next

hell yea

[Meuh]

Kinda think we should just dunk Meuh today, all four of us have her on all of our theoretical scum teams and so if she's town this game is just over already. Don't really want to spin wheels when that's pretty much the only place I see us ending up.

This is so lame, at least evaluate things. This whole “we only win in a theoretical scenario where someone specific is scum, so I’ll turn off my brain and hope that’s it” thing that’s being pushed today isn’t productive in the slightes

[Meuh]

t

[Meuh]

Kinda think we should just dunk Meuh today, all four of us have her on all of our theoretical scum teams and so if she's town this game is just over already. Don't really want to spin wheels when that's pretty much the only place I see us ending up.

This is so lame, at least evaluate things. This whole “we only win in a theoretical scenario where someone specific is scum, so I’ll turn off my brain and hope that’s it” thing that’s being pushed today isn’t productive in the slightes

who do you want to yeet meuh

Still Dunn

[Meuh]

lowkey thinking maybe i just sheep cakez

if cakez town and meuh town i can just blame him
if cakez scum then meuh should be scum because cakez loves bussing

Spoiler:

[Meuh]

maybe stoned cakez can solve this game

I believe in stoned Cakez!!!!

[Meuh]

Ooh boy

[Meuh]

also not voting yet but I feel this vote is encouraging

Encouraging in what way?

[Meuh]

It really is just Pooky/Dunn
Please let me scumcase Pooky before putting a vote on me, we have time

[Meuh]

i cant fathom why you think it would make sense to scumcase me rather than the person voting for you in elo

Because I’ve already cased Dunn and Cakez didn’t care for it
I want a good solve

[Meuh]

I will VOTE: Dunn though

[Meuh]

GL come save me the wolves are after me

[Meuh]

and Meuh suddenly pivoting to scumreading Pooky at the 11th hour and appealing to me to 'save her' feels like she knows I'm town... I should definitely be a suspect to her

Cakez: is trying to solve the game
You: is trying to solve the game
Pooky: is not trying to solve the game

I believe in Alisae

[Meuh]

Why are my notifications for being quoted no longer clearing when I check the thread

[Meuh]

Oh there’s a mark as read button that works

[Meuh]

For the notifs

[Meuh]

I’ll probably try to scumcase him sometime this weekend, I’m busy and phoneposting rn

[Meuh]

Hello yes I'm here

[Meuh]

I've read the posting around it but I don't feel like I've digested it super well
Rep out looks bad but I still think a lot of RH9's posting was good and it felt like our thoughts clicked quite a bit, but I may be overestimating that mindmeld
I don't really feel like my input would actually change whether RH9 gets hammered or not (and it seems like the lack thereof got Dunn to vote for me, which is more than me commenting on it would've done )
I instinctively felt the urge to rush to comment but I realized my take on RH9 didn't actually merit urgency so I just didn't, would it really have done much? Maybe I'm disillusioned for no good reason, meh

Dunn is never happening either way

, maybe I could make some cool case for GL being scum but I don't have the confidence or the energy in that read to build a real case right now. and I'm too murky on RH9 to provide meaningful insight either

weird thing to say about the person you're most sure is scum

I feel like I've already addressed this, haven't I?

Spoiler:

Quietly hoping that the wagon will lose steam on its own is not all that uncommon for scum to do imo.

as a general rule I disagree with this because I think scum usually feel pressured to Have a Stance on their partner as they understand people are gonna be going back and looking at people's reads on the flipped scum. if Meuh is doing buddies with RH9 here she was keeping him in a very null-y tier:

I think Pooky flips scum more than RH9 at this point, but I probably should give a closer look to his ISO.

Dunn > GL > Pooky > RH9 > Cakez > Lukewarm
My lim preference at the moment

I guess it's possible she's just trying to coast and skate by without a firm read on her buddy but I am not sensing a real agenda positioning around an upcoming incriminating flip. she was advocating (somewhat strongly) that Dunn/I were the scum team and in the RH9/Meuh world that theory would be immediately dead when either of us green flipped.

I think the Meuh/Dunn interactions are much more likely to be S-S given how decisively Meuh was pushing Dunn earlier yet how much that's tapered off (despite her still claiming to scumread him).

and if Dunn is scum then chaining me to him makes sense too

What am I supposed to do??? Push Dunn and scream into the void about how he’s scum? People pretty clearly weren’t interested in doing Dunn, I’d still adore it but I also don’t wanna waste my time pushing for Dunn when no one else wants it to happen

Like Lukewarm disagreed with me on Dunn, I didn’t find the counter-point compelling but my response to it didn’t change his mind, and he seems to think Cakez is more likely to flip scum here?
Cakez has just been sitting there saying the PR claims are good
Pooky was actually shading Dunn and saying his claim was the most likely to be fake and then just went “oh actually I believe in all the PR claims ”
RH9 seemed willing to believe Dunn could be scum but his reads were super fickle and he didn’t have a strong view on Dunn
Pretty sure you’re the only one who was like “yeah, scum definitely flips in the PRs” but weren’t you pushing that Cakez was scum?
Where’s the wagon? What would be the point of me pushing for Dunn being scum?? Especially since a lot of people are clearing him on mech, which is a lot harder to actually convince someone they’re wrong on (tracker/rb/doc would be very unbalanced here but obviously some people disagree)

Yeah I already did, and it was directly in response to you

[Meuh]

do you still think i'm mafia with dunnstral

Yeah, but I can't say I'm super wowed by GL's content and I'm getting a bit of paranoia there and I don't despise your more recent posting (it did feel like GL was trying to solve more than you on day 2, though)
I guess I don't necessarily need to find Dunn's partner rn but understanding what exactly's going on would help

[Meuh]

I have no clue how to feel about GL's vote
Cause it felt kinda odd for him to just plop that vote there without major warning, but also the odds of me/Cakez or me/Pooky being the team I think generally looked low, so it makes sense
It makes Dunn more likely to die, which also isn't really necessary cause GL can just try to make me die today
The negative reaction to 1737 might've been a scum!GL who was betting on Cakez/Pooky mislimming me and who's annoyed it might not happen, especially after he's placed his vote on Dunn? In a way, his vote on me could be his means of soothing Cakez/Pooky that the team was me/GL and taking advantage of my assertion that he was town. If he sees Cakez/Pooky's vote as linked, then in theory he should just play in a way that maximizes his chances of getting me mislimmed, and voting Dunn might do that? (and unpair them to some extent idk)
It's confusing

Pedit: Cakez is convinced that Dunn is town, Dunn town means I'm always scum
I guess he showed more willingness to believe Dunn is scum recently though I think?
Cakez has just been so out of line with my own perspective of the game that I'm not even sure how to reconcile our perspectives
I guess I could towncase myself but I also haven't been particularly paying attention to what makes me town here (cause yknow, I'm not reading myself)

[Meuh]

Maybe it is just GL/Dunn and I was on the nose yesterday

[Meuh]

Napkin thoughts: Millers town, catboi town, Bell town

Mafia within: elle (1L), Ydrasse, SirCakez, Guiltylion


This is a lot faster than I usually analyze things, but I already feel like I have things to read rather than the game being banter as it usually feels like.

in theory scum!pooky could have been informed there was a miller and cleverly asked prism for a miller fake claim during pregame to orchestrate as well

this post feels off to me, it's giving me vibes of speculating about something that you know didn't happen
VOTE: elle

What you point out here makes me think of this post which was made by a member of the mafia in that game with 4 town millers and mafia having an informed role:

The thing that's really starting to annoy me is that people are acting as if all these Miller claims mean they MUST be Town.

Did it ever occur to anyone that Scum could be informed about there being one or more Millers in the game?

Also napkin thoughts:

elle (1L) + Ydrasse, or elle (1L) + SirCakez for the scumteam, as post 146 quoted above does not seem like both mafia, and elle (1L) does seem the most suspect to me right now based on how I've seen mafia in this position act before.

Bell I know you are going to ask why I have you as town; I think catboi made a good point about your early aggressiveness leaning town

Puts GL in scumpool -> mentions a GL post reminds him of a past scum post -> conveniently takes GL out of the pool for the scum team because he's unpaired with the others in the scumpool (I mean this is a fake thought because Dunn is scum, but does make me think. Why would Dunn be particularly aware of GL being paired/unpaired with people? I think GL being scum is the most sensical answer to this question.)
Considering Dunn's scum, I think it'd make sense to put more effort (dig into meta) into crafting a scumread on his partner to make it more credible.

[Meuh]

Kind of leans into the whole "saying things that you know are true as scum to have read accuracy" thing? Like he knows GL's posting isn't townie, cause he's scum with him, but because he knows GL isn't scum with anyone else, he can confidently assert him being unpaired as the basis for his read

[Meuh]

Napkin thoughts: Millers town, catboi town, Bell town

why is catboi town?

like does that catboi post (or catboi pointing the same thing out i am saying here) really seem that towny to you?

Napkin thoughts: Millers town, catboi town, Bell town

why is catboi town?

I like the analysis in post 136 and I think it is towny to townread those players like that rather than talk about paranoia

@Cakez - do you have a read on elle?

@Dunn - I get that you like the post but you really believe that's sufficient for a townread? 177 and 179 reads as though you're POEing via your townreads and that feels kinda rote and simplistic. I don't think mafia is incapable of producing catboi's ISO so far

@Cakez - do you have a read on elle?

@Dunn - I get that you like the post but you really believe that's sufficient for a townread? 177 and 179 reads as though you're POEing via your townreads and that feels kinda rote and simplistic. I don't think mafia is incapable of producing catboi's ISO so far

If Catboi is mafia they opened up by calling a lot of people town, including two people who claimed the same role. I think mafia would be more hesitant to do so and would want paranoia to remain there.

I guess my reasoning here isn't convincing to other people, but I wasn't really trying to convince other people, I was just giving my own thoughts

These posts kind of sum up their interactions the entire game, questions back and forth, easily can be faked, feels... impersonal I guess?
Dunn in that last post addresses "other people", but not GL directly. I don't recall them really trying to nudge each other in any way? Just kind of throwing questions at each other. I don't get the sense Dunn is trying to appeal to GL here but more to the thread in general which is odd cause Dunn's scum and would want town GL to believe in his towniness?

[Meuh]

Spoiler:

I believe that Ydrasse is usually more charismatic as mafia early. Maybe. I feel like I make this argument a lot in games but I don't remember how that has went for me.

hah actually this is sorta what I just said but in a more concise tl;dr form

hmmm I wanna say that is +points for Dunn being town but I guess he could still make this argument as scum, especially if he's made it before

If Catboi is mafia they opened up by calling a lot of people town, including two people who claimed the same role. I think mafia would be more hesitant to do so and would want paranoia to remain there.

on this though, I guess like, maybe? scum are certainly incentivized away from making early game townreads but I feel once you hit a certain level of experience/skill in your scum game you realize early TRs are a lot more reversible than people tend to think. in the general case I agree with you but I wouldn't put that much stock in it for somebody who's been on the site for a decade, especially when he himself immediately said he's capable of posting that as scum

Ydrasse points against SirCakez:
o Their vote put pressure on Ydrasse at a time when people were considering voting for Ydrasse
o Their interaction with Pooky is suspicious because they avoided talking about the miller claim to "get into the game", and they would do so as town
o They are being obtuse in their interaction with Ydrasse and missing the point on purpose, including misrepping what Ydrasse is saying


SirCakez points against Ydrasse:
o Their interactions with elle (1L) on page 8 are informed
o Their responses to SirCakez's questions are bad and Ydrasse would have better arguments as town

what are your thoughts about a Cakez vote?

I find the notion of voting SirCakez agreeable

Still feels like there's probably a scum between Luke and GL but it's not something that needs immediate resolution in my opinion.

Why do you have the two of us grouped together in this thought?

I agree with catboi thinking this. My own thoughts on this game right now are 1 between your slot and Gl, and 1 between ydrasse and SirCakez. If you are town Gl is more likely in my mind, and ydrasse/SirCakez is admittedly poe. Leaning more towards SirCakez.

Looking at potential partner interactions, I see posts 337 and 361. Along with post 321. In post 430 Gl seems to be suspecting Luke, catboi, and me. I don't see any mention of their read on SirCakez besides asking me what I thought of it

VOTE: Guilty Lion

Your line of questioning with Dunn did not appear to lead to you voicing any thoughts on Dunn's alignment wrt his Catboi read, nor did you seem to argue that Catboi was scum. It was just "but scum catboi COULD do that too, so you should not town read him." And that being the where that conversation led, left me with that impression.

I also, just, in general do not trust that sort of argument as genuine, because it seems to set a precedent that in order to think someone is more likely to be town, you must believe that their actions could not be replicated. And that is a very silly bar to set for town reads.

on this - I don't think I really had a lot of substantial thoughts on Dunn's alignment, at least not worth sharing. I felt most of his reads seemed artificial and formulaic, outside of when he had the same take as I did on Ydra. That's what is kinda hanging me up as I don't see the scum motivation for that read if Ydra is town, and the fact that he had the same reasoning regarding her scum meta felt mindmeld-y. but the catboi read was concerningly easy and I was trying to suss out to what degree he actually believes in it. I also generally don't like that he seemed reluctant to put down a vote on Cakez

I've been unsure of how to feel re:catboi as well but assuming you're telling the truth here I am thinking he's probably mafia

i thought about your reasoning for GL and i think its kind of weak sauce and its like you decided to vote him then figure out an excuse rather than the other way around.

tbh you can never put it past Luke to find some reason to scumread me

Your line of questioning with Dunn did not appear to lead to you voicing any thoughts on Dunn's alignment wrt his Catboi read, nor did you seem to argue that Catboi was scum. It was just "but scum catboi COULD do that too, so you should not town read him." And that being the where that conversation led, left me with that impression.

I also, just, in general do not trust that sort of argument as genuine, because it seems to set a precedent that in order to think someone is more likely to be town, you must believe that their actions could not be replicated. And that is a very silly bar to set for town reads.

on this - I don't think I really had a lot of substantial thoughts on Dunn's alignment, at least not worth sharing. I felt most of his reads seemed artificial and formulaic, outside of when he had the same take as I did on Ydra. That's what is kinda hanging me up as I don't see the scum motivation for that read if Ydra is town, and the fact that he had the same reasoning regarding her scum meta felt mindmeld-y. but the catboi read was concerningly easy and I was trying to suss out to what degree he actually believes in it. I also generally don't like that he seemed reluctant to put down a vote on Cakez

I've been unsure of how to feel re:catboi as well but assuming you're telling the truth here I am thinking he's probably mafia

You quoted me giving a summary of Ydrasse and SirCakez. Nowhere in the post you had quoted did I suggest that I wanted to vote SirCakez

You made this post:

Ydrasse points against SirCakez:
o Their vote put pressure on Ydrasse at a time when people were considering voting for Ydrasse
o Their interaction with Pooky is suspicious because they avoided talking about the miller claim to "get into the game", and they would do so as town
o They are being obtuse in their interaction with Ydrasse and missing the point on purpose, including misrepping what Ydrasse is saying


SirCakez points against Ydrasse:
o Their interactions with elle (1L) on page 8 are informed
o Their responses to SirCakez's questions are bad and Ydrasse would have better arguments as town

what are your thoughts about a Cakez vote?

And I don't think the post you quoted is showing suspicion on SirCakez.

I think you used my response to you asking if I would vote SirCakez as your reason to point towards me suspecting SirCakez after the fact, which doesn't make sense.

elle (1L) + Ydrasse, or elle (1L) + SirCakez for the scumteam, as post 146 quoted above does not seem like both mafia, and elle (1L) does seem the most suspect to me right now based on how I've seen mafia in this position act before.

I believe that Ydrasse is usually more charismatic as mafia early. Maybe. I feel like I make this argument a lot in games but I don't remember how that has went for me.

@Dunn re:548- the combination of these two posts, not the one I quoted, is what made me think you should be voting Cakez if you were acting on your reads

I didn't post "hm, Dunn seems like he should be scumreading/voting Cakez, but he's not, I'm going to ask him about whether he'd vote Cakez to test him" ahead of time because that would obviously shape any reaction or post that I got from you

elle (1L) + Ydrasse, or elle (1L) + SirCakez for the scumteam, as post 146 quoted above does not seem like both mafia, and elle (1L) does seem the most suspect to me right now based on how I've seen mafia in this position act before.

I believe that Ydrasse is usually more charismatic as mafia early. Maybe. I feel like I make this argument a lot in games but I don't remember how that has went for me.

@Dunn re:548- the combination of these two posts, not the one I quoted, is what made me think you should be voting Cakez if you were acting on your reads

I didn't post "hm, Dunn seems like he should be scumreading/voting Cakez, but he's not, I'm going to ask him about whether he'd vote Cakez to test him" ahead of time because that would obviously shape any reaction or post that I got from you

I was thinking about voting Elle at this point in time, though I didn't voice that and I wasn't voting because I didn't want to push them close to an elimination too fast.

Post 179 should point out as much.

It is true that thinking Ydrasse is more towny made me think SirCakez is more scummy, though. I'm confused about the post you quoted when asking me my read, I guess.

do you think scum!catboi would replace out like that?

I don't disagree with catboi slot being town but the reasoning in 897 is just annoying.

I didn't fully read 890 and 891, honestly, but I do like the look of it.

SirCakez, what happened to your read on GL at the end of the last day, and how do two VT flips make you think a miller claim is more suspicious?

hi ho, I am Prism's roommate and I am a VT

I am just checking in quickly for now but I should have more time to play this afternoon, this week has been super busy

I agree with Pooky's logic that there must be a scum in {Cakez, Luke, Dunn} based on the claims

I need to re-ISO Dunn and remember how he landed on Ydra yesterday

Nothing here really makes me think Dunn and GL are unpaired in the slightest, despite a bunch of engagement together
Can just be it

[Meuh]

Dunn/GL as a team is definitely more winnable than Dunn/Pooky, especially with Cakez' stances here
So maybe I put all my eggs in one basket and go all in on that team
Pooky if you're town let's win this game

[Meuh]

I agree Luke's claim has to be town at this point because there's not enough town power otherwise

I'm thinking either

1) Cakez just trueclaimed his role as a scum RB
or
2) Dunn is some kind of scum investigative that targeted Luke

what's extra wonk is that neither Cakez nor Dunn see any issue with eachother's claims

I think at least to Dunn's credit he is just coming off kind of obtuse whereas Cakez pivoted from "scum in the PRs" to just immediately accepting Dunn's claim - feels like he may be strategically positioning and not wanting to make an enemy out of Dunn

GL/Dunn have a bunch of interactions arguing with each other but then GL shifts to Cakez being the scum in Cakez/Dunn
But also the idea of Cakez trueclaiming RB is weird (as other people have pointed out), maybe the oddity in that idea comes from the fact that he just manufactured this idea to create a scum Cakez world to cling onto

[Meuh]

Dunn's posting around GL early day 2 are so weird because he spends so much time throwing shade with him and disagreeing with everything he says but like, where's the actual stance on GL? Why isn't he commenting on GL's alignment here?

[Meuh]

I kind of buy GL and Dunn's annoyance at each other but I'm not sure that points strongly in any direction

[Meuh]

I think it's intriguing cause GL throws shade at Dunn early on in day 1, but I don't think ever votes there. Day 2 they squabble a bunch, but then neither vote for each other, and GL uses a scumread on Cakez as a way to shift away from scumreading Dunn. Then later on he starts scumreading Dunn again, but it's specifically in a pair with me, and he goes for me instead of Dunn, since I'm a more viable lim in that gamestate
There's always been something preventing the Dunn scumread from materializing into anything real

[Meuh]

Other than just now, but this is a weird gamestate where I can see why GL would vote for Dunn over me, even if partnered

[Meuh]

Why do Dunn and GL perpetually scumread each other, but there's always a better target to focus on? I mean there is Dunn's vote on GL for a while on day 1, but even with that, he shifts away from it not because his stance on GL changes, but because he sees Ydrasse as scummier. That's what's happened all game. They've refused to think of the other as town, but also haven't appealed to the other trying to convince the other they're town? Would a towny in GL's position not scrutinize Dunn over his stance on himself?

[Meuh]

Whether that's Ydrasse, Cakez or me, there's always a juicier target to go for, it's never one of them.

[Meuh]

and it seems very suspicious that meuh is just accepting there are two millers this game apparently???

You’re willing to accept tracker/doctor/rber all in this game and I’m the one who’s out there for thinking we could have 2 millers?????

[Meuh]

Like cmon

[Meuh]

You’re like 97.6353636154182636% town here you’ve gotta find me as town too please

[Meuh]

Maybe you think that 2 millers is crazy but does it in any way contradict my previous thinking or make my perspective here scummy?? Ask yourself if I can think it as town, not if you personally would think it, because plenty of townies in this game (myself included) have had a different outlook on mech than you

[Meuh]

Do you think it can be GL/Dunn? Do you even think it can ever be Pooky? If not, unless you think it’s me+Dunn, why don’t you want GL as the vote here?

[Meuh]

Like please give me an ounce of consideration instead of defaulting to a vote on me when we have five days to solve this

[Meuh]

Dunn’s play around the claims is still so incredibly fucking scummy and everything he did at that time blatantly fed the scum agenda
How can people not see this

[Meuh]

Dunn why did you claim specifically the 1-shot aspect of your role

did you consider withholding the number of uses

I did consider doing that but valued true claiming for figuring out the setup and if other claimed roles are real. That and I didn't want to cause problems if fake claiming led to people questioning my role, like if there were another gated protective role in the setup.

This post alone is a scum claim what even

[Meuh]

Why does Dunn true claim? Or even just claim shot count in the first place? Why is Dunn worried about getting CCed by another gated protective? Why does Dunn want Luke to claim first?
You need to jump through a bunch of hoops to justify this as town behaviour, but as scum behaviour it’s literally all just pushing the agenda

[Meuh]

How is 1-shot RB, 1-shot Doc, 2-shot Tracker less believable than two Millers and 2-shot Tracker

Cause millers do absolutely nothing in this setup and the other PRs swing the game in town's favour? We've already argued this like 20 times

[Meuh]

Whether that's Ydrasse, Cakez or me, there's always a juicier target to go for, it's never one of them.

If I remember correctly you were bouncing between catboi and myself too. I have pointed out, multiple times, that your vote on RH9 did not make sense when you were saying you thought mafia were trying to make us look aligned.

Why does Dunn want Luke to claim first?

Why would I want Luke to claim first as mafia?

As it turns out, there are many factors at play when voting. I thought mafia trying to make us look aligned was likely, but like, not strongly enough to define my course of action alone????
Also do note that this was your initial callout for this:

I feel like every once in a while someone checks in and goes “Meuh/Dunn, amirite?” and that makes me think Dunn is even more likely to be scum, cause scum would adoreeeeee lumping me in there and getting me as a mislim at some point (I think Pooky, Cakez, elle, and now GL have all pushed it?)

Open question to the Player List:

If you were choosing between only Catboi/RH/Ali Slot and Cakez, which would you choose?

I’d stick to Alisae

Looks like not even you believe your point in 1488

The comparison was specifically Alisae vs Cakez, and I had been hard townreading Cakez for a while? You don't actually believe the point you're making here because if you'd thought about it you would've realized, "oh wait, maybe Meuh won't vote for Cakez over Alisae because this new idea doesn't hold weight to Cakez doing townie things all the time"
"If I remember correctly you were bouncing between catboi and myself too. " Also wtf does this even mean here, what are you saying?

You'd want Luke to claim first because you wanted to know whether you were forced to claim PR. There are 3 scenarios here:
Luke claims first, he saw you visit (the one that happened): You're forced to claim PR and are stuck getting CCed by someone else, which is why you were so scared of getting CCed by someone else and eliminated.
Luke claims first, he DIDN'T see you visit: This is the ideal scenario. You don't have to claim PR and you get to stick to the VT pool
Luke claims after you: You're forced to either claim PR or claim VT and risk the chance of getting caught

Luke claiming first just gives you more info to work with as scum and potentially help you avoid having to claim PR (which you were clearly scared of doing)

[Meuh]

Oh and you pivoted to Pooky at day start along with GL. Neither of you went for each other. And when asked to give reasons on Pooky you blew that off and now you've changed your stance.

So you didn't have reasons for Pooky scum, right? You were going to take some time to make something up but you didn't actually have a reason to think it was Pooky, so your stance switching there was made up too.

(Today I learned there's a 30 smiley limit)

[Meuh]

I've already answered that question when you asked it before.

Spoiler: helpful guide

[Meuh]

To me it looks like the mafia have decided to kill me at night and are now trying to convince SirCakez to vote for Pooky in final 3.

Or at least shopping around for the above possibility, seeing what SirCakez thinks

Also this is such a confusing thought? In what world does maf not kill Cakez here lmao

[Meuh]

You should've kept lurking. I'm town and you're scum. The more we post, the clearer we make it. Thank you for helping me out.

[Meuh]

Oh yeah Pooky paced around the room in panic going "but what if it IS Cakez???" for a bit
I don't really think Cakez is ever getting mislimmed here, though. At the very least not with my vote, cause it's not going anywhere near him

[Meuh]

I've already answered that question when you asked it before.

You said tracker or rolecop.

If I were a tracker, I would know that Luke targetted me, so I wouldn't need Luke to claim first.

If I were a rolecop, I would have no reason to target Luke because their slot claimed on day 1.

As I already mentioned, there's merit in a rolecop check on Luke, as it can determine shot count. Also, being seen visiting someone other than Luke would be kind of a predicament for you, regardless of your specific scum role. You can't really claim protective, because then you would've been on Luke. If you claim investigative, you look real bad cause Luke's already claiming investigative, AND you have to give a result, which would show that you're scum, and/or give more info to town. If I were a scum rolecop, I'd be checking Luke on night 1.
I don't particularly care what specific role you are. Looking at the list of roles, I'll say you're a firefighter, cause that's funny. It's not like this setup doesn't have roles that don't do anything, considering I'm a miller and there's no cop.

[Meuh]

I think you revealed your mafia mindset by saying that SirCakez was "obviously" the mafia night kill. I propose that this was not clear or obvious to the town.

Got a response to 1808 or nah?

Omg mafia mindset!!!!!!!! SO TRUE!!!!!!
I can't believe I thought that the obvtown player is going to be killed at night, that would never happen

[Meuh]

I do not think that I am generally very good at convincing people I am town once I am on the "back foot" as pooky put it, and the thread starts being about me (to be fair, this is probably as true if I were scum as it is when I am town).

And seeing as how I hit E-1 already, and I don't plan on throwing myself all into "proving myself" or what ever, so I think I'll just claim.

I am a 2-shot Tracker.

So, yall can discuss if yall are killing me for claiming, or letting me live for being a PR, and decide on that basis.

And I'll just skip the hassle of trying so hard if I am dying today.

They claimed 2-shot tracker here. I wouldn't need to determine shot count.

If being seen visiting someone else would have been bad, I could have holstered whatever role I had as mafia.

Luke can just lie though
Like townies do that sometimes, it's often good to do to trick the mafia (as Luke has said himself), but clearly you haven't heard of it since you claimed 1-shot in a situation where it would be bad to do that as town!!
and if it's between 0 info and getting confirmation of Luke's shot count, I don't think it's unreasonable to pick the second option. and that's all in the world that you're a rolecop, you could be anything, there's loads of roles out there (and tbh the fact you're honing down on this probably indicates you're not rolecop?)

[Meuh]

yo cakeboi and dunny where r u two on who we yeet today if you two actually want to hold hands and believe in each other

I am still thinking Meuh and GuiltyLion is the most likely.

Truly a staunch defence, thank you for saving the town

[Meuh]

I'm thinking Pooky's just town, and Cakez' play around the claims actually looks fairly good here. Page 42/43 look good for them both. So maybe it's just Dunn/GL? I think you (talking to RH9) can be scum but I don't see it right now

Dunn why did you claim specifically the 1-shot aspect of your role

did you consider withholding the number of uses

I did consider doing that but valued true claiming for figuring out the setup and if other claimed roles are real.

That and I didn't want to cause problems if fake claiming led to people questioning my role, like if there were another gated protective role in the setup.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
I think there's a fair chance that's the thought process Dunn genuinely had here, but as scum
Claiming full doctor or a doctor with more than a shot would be bad if there was an actual town protective. At first I thought this discouraged GL/Dunn because GL hadn't claimed yet and Dunn has no reason to fear a scum!GL claim, but Cakez also hadn't claimed, but DID allude to being a PR

I'm even more suspicious as Luke has claimed he found yet another PR, which, two millers, another visiting PR, Luke

and my role

seems absurd. We should probably mass claim, someone in the PR claims is lying.

I'm alright with mass claiming. Luke should probably claim what they saw first to verify their role.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

Like I did the math
I'm not a VT, to clarify what I've been alluding to. So if all the PR claims + Luke's track PR are legit that would make the setup

Ydrasse VT
Bell VT
Pooky Miller
Meuh Miller
Luke 2shot Tracker
Me non-VT
Whoever Luke tracked visiting someone
Scum
Scum

That doesn't look like a legit setup to me, thus why I think in the PR claims there are scum, either whoever Luke tracked or in the millers or potentially Luke himself. Like was said we can check him now with his claimed target.

Luke claims to have seen a visit -> Cakez claims non-VT, not the specific role -> Dunn insists Lukewarm should claim before everyone else -> Lukewarm does claim -> Dunn claims a low-power town role that even he himself noticed wouldn't contradict ANOTHER town protective claim (??? Why is this a thought he would even have as town, if I'm a 1-shot doc in a setup with a 2-shot tracker I'm not thinking there's another protective somewhere)
He's just scum and his play around the claims lines up entirely with what a scum player who visited last night would want to do here

VOTE: Dunnstral

The entire argument here revolves around Cakez being town

Town does not have the thought of "millers are mislimmable on day 1 here"

GL is scum

playing against 2 town millers he didn't feel like he could mislim
I think

this perspective kinda unpairs Cakez/GL

since wasn't Cakez one of the people who was sticking to not limming a miller day 1? His perspective (as town) would affect GL's view of a miller mislim (as scum)

Oh wow, Cakez town!

It's Dunn/Cakez (probably Dunn) with GL/RH9 (probably GL)
Unless Pooky is faking a town perspective very well or we're actually in a weird scum!Luke world and Dunn/Cakez are both town
I feel like Dunn/Pooky is feasible? But not the most likely world. Pooky/Cakez doesn't feel like a scum pair
Pooky with a VT claim I feel is generally questionable in terms of mechs? and neither a Pooky/GL or Pooky/RH9 team looks right to me, but I can't say I've thought of it thoroughly

Oh wow!!!! I see Cakez scum as very unlikely!!

Town does not have the thought of "millers are mislimmable on day 1 here"
GL is scum playing against 2 town millers he didn't feel like he could mislim
I think this perspective kinda unpairs Cakez/GL since wasn't Cakez one of the people who was sticking to not limming a miller day 1? His perspective (as town) would affect GL's view of a miller mislim (as scum)

I don't understand this post

Dunn asked what is wrong with a micro with 3 PRs + 2 millers, so I explained why there can't be 3 PRs + 2 millers

"scum perspective" is required to explain why a theoretical set up is unbalanced for scum

I kind of think we just yeet GuiltyLion here I believe in all my PRs

there literally has to be scum in the PRs

especially if you are town

@Luke am I crazy? why does it feel like I'm the only person saying both Cakez and Dunn cannot be town

I guess Meuh also said the same thing but called me scum for saying it

My point was more specifically regarding millers not being mislimmable on day 1.
The way that clashed with my own (and others') view of the game and the way that I think scum would be more likely to believe it was my issue
The rest of your post was fine
But yeah this setup does not work if all the claims are real, there's scum in Dunn/Cakez here,

though probably not both

. (2-shot tracker + 2 millers is feasible I guess? But not super likely in my eyes)

(This emphasizes that Dunn scum means Cakez town)

One thing that sticks out in Cakez' favour here is that he was already implying being a PR that didn't visit last night before Dunn had claimed
As scum, he had no need to commit to claiming PR this early and could've waited to choose when his turn came to claim, but he was already directing himself towards that before even knowing who Luke had visited and this person's role. If scum Cakez softs PR and then Dunn claims something like full doc, he's forced to retract his soft or to claim a weak PR, and neither looks good.
This contrasts with Dunn who was forced into a position where he had to claim PR and then did so, self-admittedly being scared of another PR claiming and looking bad because of it. Cakez has backed down on this so it's less significant, but pushing the idea of scum existing in the PRs while deciding to soft PR himself as scum is pretty risky
imo Dunn handled the PR situation in the safest, most textbook way, while Cakez did it in a weird, risky way that doesn't seem like how scum would want to approach it

Wow, defending Cakez a bunch!!

Dunn > GL > Pooky > RH9 > Cakez > Lukewarm
My lim preference at the moment

Wow, I don't want Cakez to be limmed!!!!

Spoiler: Dunn/RH9 slot

shaping view of game around assuming millers are town seems ? to me

miller claims in current site meta are town at a rate well above random (not even counting the very silly normal Dunnstral just linked) and reading into the personality of the players claiming and determining they aren't lying is pretty basic, it's not dissimilar to evaluating most other claims really. It's just based on whether you think the person is likely to be lying or not.

That being said the logic I used for it is trivial to fake as scum and I would probably play around the claims exactly the same way as scum, because it's easy to make that sort of logical point. Dunn townreading me there for it was puzzling but sometimes town make weird reads so I'm not going to do anything about it.

I don't think that will be very helpful for me so would feel guilty making you put in substantial effort to do so. If somebody else thinks this would be useful they can jump in.

I don't think it will be helpful because I don't put a lot of weight into saying you would do things differently when we are this early into the game, and you are the one describing things and there is bias there. I think that mafia fake claiming millers is unlikely, and despite what catboi says I do think a track record of not fake claiming miller makes it more likely to not be fake in this game as well. And meuh was the one who counter claimed so they took an active role and I agree with the thought that mafia are less likely to do so, especially when somebody else is already claiming that role. So that makes me think the millers are town, and

your reaction to them reminded me of when I played the mini normal recently and the mafia made a similar argument against the miller claims

.

And I also am reading catboi and bell as town, so that has me looking at Elle (1L), Ydrasse, SirCakez, and GuiltyLion. And you Elle (1L) are the one who has given the most content to discuss. I am not disregarding the 4 people I am townreading for the rest of the game, I do think it is a good place to start though.

Thought push on elle was maybe a little unfair but I like the bolded line, fakeable but it's a decent thought.

I acknowledge 287 as being correct on some level about the word choices Meuh seeming scummy, I'm just...not sure it actually comes from scum. It's a

plausible

read from Ydrasse, at any rate.

I think 294 from Cakez is a very generic sounding read that does nothing for me, but I think he comes off okay in his tiff with Ydrasse, and I'd even lean town on it? Just my feeling that the passion is real rather than a show being put on by mafia. Could be wrong, but I don't really feel like he's a good vote on Day 1 because he tends to get mis-elimmed as town a lot.

Would Ydrasse, as mafia, feel the need to push SirCakez early on, rather than building up connections?

It's not impossible

if

she felt threatened by cakez scumreading her and felt the need to push back on an accuser before she became a wagon - part of why I squinted at her accusing the game of shifting momentum toward her was that it felt like it could be an unconscious guilt thing - when you're scum you tend to perceive your actions as ore suspicious than they are and get worried that people are going to start pushing you and it felt like an exaggeration of reality.

Or she could just be a paranoid townie. I'm hardly committed to my current vote.

(also 314 got a laugh out of me)

I don't really have a read on elle but I'm not opposed to voting her. I don't have thoughts on Dunn having a read on me because I have almost no success reading people off how they read me. I don't think it's impossible for a townie to see someone reading the game the same way as them and call it town even if it was fast, but in terms of his other content it's been unobjectionable but doesn't scream town to me.

like gls thoughts on catboi exactly mirror my own. so they make sense to me. i just dont bother to question dflors townread cuz i think its tactically bad.

I do not think that it is unreasonable to not be swayed by Dunn's reasons. I wasn't. I still don't have a read on catboi.

It also did not bother me that he asked Dunn to explain the read, that is also reasonable. My issue was where GL went after that.

It did not read to me, like GL was trying to divine if Dunn's read was a plausibly genuine read or not, and therefore whether having that read was scummy or not. At least, I did not see anything about that coming from GL's posts following Dunn's explanation.

Instead, it seemed like he pivoted into trying to convince Dunn not to have that read. And he was not even arguing that Cartboi is scum. Just that Dunn should not have a town read because it is

possible

for scum to replicate it.

I don't see why a townie would actually care if Dunn has a day 1 town read on Catboi, especially one Dunn openly said he is not married to

Spoiler:

I am not disregarding the 4 people I am townreading for the rest of the game, I do think it is a good place to start though.

But there is scum motivation to stop people from forming too many town reads.

Maybe I am ascribing too much to the unsaid, but I thought it was pretty plausible that GL's questioning of Dunn was for exactly the reason of figuring out if it was genuine or not.

hm, okay

having a tracker in a setup with (potential) millers is kind of comedic if it's true, but I don't feel like eliminating a PR claim on Day 1. Still feels like there's probably a scum between Luke and GL but it's not something that needs immediate resolution in my opinion.

VOTE: Dunn

I guess I land here: not really strongly townread by anyone but also not getting pressured.

VOTE: Dunn

I guess I land here: not really strongly townread by anyone but also not getting pressured.

That does not mean I am mafia.

True it doesn't but I don't townread you. If I'm wrong on you then either I'm wrong on cakez (entirely possible but I'm personally not going to vote him Day 1), or someone else is getting misread by people.

I think that I am convincing myself that GL is town, and that catboi is positioning to eliminate him after killing me for being a tracker.

Both because he linked the two of us together in a way that seems disingenuous, but also in the same post of doing that just side stepped eliminating inside the pair entirely for the day.

Especially when reading 502, and his pivot into Dunn feels toothless, like it was just The Best Option Left. Not like he even thought his thoughts on Dunn were Good.

I literally just said we shouldn't vote you Day 1 so I don't know where you're getting the idea I'm trying to eliminate you. I would only push to eliminate you if you weren't NKed and after a mass claim your claim was one we decided didn't really fit in the setup. You're right I'm trying to eliminate outside you two, but I don't think you're ever scum together, so there's almost certainly a scum outside you. In the event I'm wrong on there being a scum between you two then voting outside you is even more beneficial to the town for obvious reasons.

I don't know where you'd get the idea I'd be able to effortlessly chain-elim GL and then you or why you think I'd lay my roadmap for a path to victory out in the thread Day 1, that's totally unnecessary as scum when I can just go 1 step at a time.

I would agree with your assessment that I'm not being exceptionally forceful with my vote on Dunn. Why should I be? I have no particular reason to believe my reads are highly accurate, and when I try to force a case too much it ends up being wrong. If I really wanted to I could bullshit a case in 45 minutes on how Dunn is obvious scum and needs to die today but it wouldn't mean I believed it or that it's more likely to be right. Why do I have to have a scumread I feel confident about on Day 1?

ughhh i butchered the quote blocks i'm sorry, EBWOP for readability

---

I literally just said we shouldn't vote you Day 1 so I don't know where you're getting the idea I'm trying to eliminate you. I would only push to eliminate you if you weren't NKed
-
I don't know where you'd get the idea I'd be able to effortlessly chain-elim GL and then you

I was not saying that I felt like you were trying to eliminate me. I specifically meant night kill me, and then use my town flip to elim GL.

Lmao

I mean, I get it, but that's still very silly.

Why do I have to have a scumread I feel confident about on Day 1?

My issue is that you seemed more confident in there being scum between me and GL, yet chose Dunn.

Your stated position is that you GL is one of the lower people in your reads, and that his flip would give you insight into me, so that seems like the direction that would be more natural.

But you didn't go that direction. Instead, you voted you weaker read, and punted the Luke/GL pair down the road.

I have other means of getting insight into you besides voting out GL. I felt at the time you were more likely to be scum than him so I wasn't keen on voting him out. (But maybe I'm wrong on you!). If push came to shove I might vote him, but as I've said, if there's a scum outside you two it makes perfect sense to me to try to find that scum first. If I vote one of you out and it's wrong that's bad, if I'm wrong on both of you it's probably a game-loing read. So to me it doesn't hurt to vote outside. Night actions/claims will potentially help clear you up, if we manage to flip scum outside you then we can see if that scum makes sense as a teammate with either of you.

I wouldn't say I was more confident on GL being scum, that doesn't accurately reflect my position. My read on Dunn isn't very strong, it's just the best I have currently.

I find catboi's take on Luke's interactions with the tvt thing surprisingly persuasive. I'm kind of wondering about how they're addressing push back though. They respond differently to pressure than I do though.

Don't know what you mean in particular by this.As far as my response goes, I'm trying to be more communicative for the most part. I think Luke's pushback on me is extremely goofy but it's not setting off the same "absolute bullshit" flags the last two times I saw him as scum. I'm bad at reading people who scumread me though, as I've stated. I can't tell if they're being reasonable or not because I'm biased on knowing my alignment. I usually just reflexively OMGUS if they're being annoying enough.

Dunn is obvious scum

I believe in my cat

LMAO you're evil for this one

{pooky, bell, meuh}
{cakez}
{Luke, GL}
{Dunn, Ydrasse}

I think that I am convincing myself that GL is town, and that catboi is positioning to eliminate him after killing me for being a tracker.

Both because he linked the two of us together in a way that seems disingenuous, but also in the same post of doing that just side stepped eliminating inside the pair entirely for the day.

Especially when reading 502, and his pivot into Dunn feels toothless, like it was just The Best Option Left. Not like he even thought his thoughts on Dunn were Good.

Luke, I want to revisit this. You're scumreading me here because my vote is "toothless", because I lack passion behind it.

Now, GL gets a pass for this because he doesn't know my scumgame and is making the common fallacy that me lacking energy is a scumtell. But you - you've seen my scumgame. Do you think I, at any time as scum, come across as dispassionate? As lacking the will to put conviction behind a push?

Dunn, I will move on you if you don’t suggest a better alternative in a better way.

I say as if power is something I have over anyone.

I think GL accusing Cakez of chainsawing me is moving into "hard to fathom as being the real belief of a town player" territory. It's enough in the territory that I would be okay with voting him today, because his arguments have gotten continually worse, and look more like he's trying to "score points" with every attack rather than attempting to discern a perspective or actually investigate alignments. (I think even if he's town the way he's playing right is outright anti-town, not because he's reading me wrong but because of him tunneling in a single-minded fashion where everything someone does only adds further fuel to the fire. I think if allowed to live he will harm the town regardless of his alignment. That's simply how I've come to view this type of play. I've been guilty of it many times in the past (no pun intended), and part of the reason I've been playing restrained this game is to try to curb that tendency. I think he absolutely should not be allowed leadership/agency in this game).

Luke is simply mad I dared to suspect him. He is probably town and gets resolved mechanically either way. I wish he would not play so emotionally, but at his core he's still the same newbie I flew off the handle at for deathtunneling me a couple years ago.

I think Ydrasse's contributions to the game have overall been minimal to non-existant. Her main reads have been to defend elle for getting flustered, and OMGUSing Cakez. The elle read is not really logical because scum get flustered all the time, and instead comes across as white-knighting a player who was an early push. The Cakez read is entirely reactive and can easily be scum motivated. Beyond that, she shaded me for suggesting I'd be okay voting elle, and then shaded luke for calling her town. This is all play that is merely reacting to major events going on in the thread and responding to them, it takes very little effort. It doesn't feel investigative, like she's actually parsing the game and trying to figure anything out - rather she's simply commenting on big things or things that mention her. I think she is actively procrastinating on contributing to the thread and this is more likely to come from scum who is struggling to manufacture content.

I think the reasons that have been given for her being town are not very good. Guiltylion is suggesting her feeling concerned about the thread vibes being against her is a towntell. I think this is not convincing because it's ultimately a "vibe-based" read that is related t attitude, and that thing can be faked, or maybe she was just legitimately feeling threatened. Dunn says she is more charismatic as mafia early - again, this is a vibe-based read that is really not convincing. Luke is town reading her because she made a joke on page 1 and because she is defending his slot. I think this is obviously terrible reasoning n face value. Early game gutreads are not very likely to be accurate, and townreading someone simply for defending you means you are highly likely to fall into a pocket. Scum defend players who otherwise look to be uncontested wagons all the time. I think he is biased because he disliked being run up so quickly upon entering the game (which to be fair is an entirely understandable response), and so has latched on to anyone he saw as being protective of him.

That's my reasoning for Ydrasse being scum, it could be wrong, I don't think my read accuracy is particularly special. I would still prefer to flip her or GL if I'm voted out today.

---

It's very hard for me to explain how I'm reading pooky but I simply get the feel he is being genuine every time he posts, the way he spoke about me felt unrestrained and like it was coming from a town perspective. Similarly, Bell getting irritated with Cakez for the E-1 thing felt real and he keeps making his contributions that are slightly snarky but insightful. I buy what he's doing as town motivated

Meuh slightly less confident on but nothing she's posted has felt like t was not from a genuine perspective to me, and I still lean on the miller claim as being +town.

Dunn I had more as potential scum for POE reasons and some fear he may have been buddying me, but historically I'm not great at reading him. I thought there was simply a chance he was being overlooked.

As for Cakez, I wish I had an answer for why he felt like voting me before writing this post but I still felt like the response he had to pressure was towny in terms of how he was seemingly challenging people about voting him. I am also historically not great at reading him so my confidence level is not high, but that is the best I can manage. I think if Ydrasse flips mafia he is basically always town and should be treated as an innocent child.

catboi you have paragraphs for why you suspect other people which I read and seems pretty convincing to me. Except for the part where you say we should eliminate "regardless of alignment" - that part I am not a fan of. And then you have sentences for me, saying poe, which doesn't even make sense if you have two other, better scumreads, and then "overlooked" which is based on what other people are doing.

I guess, yeah. I realize the justification for that read isn't great but I was basically spilling out as stream of consciousness, and that was all that came to mind. Maybe that means I should reconsider you, but I don't have a lot of things I can really point to that says anything about your alignment. I often don't really know how to read you and I don't think you've done anything obviously towny to me this game - which doesn't make you scum necessarily, I just can't really clear you.

As for the "regardless of alignment" thing - it's partly salty on my part, no way around it, but it's also a theory I have. I think when a town player is really overconfident and trying to aggressively steer the game, they're usually wrong and usually harmful. On self-reflection, that's where all my worst moments come from. I've witnessed other players run games into the ground by being ego-driven and steamrolling everyone who opposed them. I think GL is tipping close to that in terms of how he's handling me. (Luke also does this but like I can't really suggest policy killing him because I think he's probably town)

To be clear though I think this is an entirely viable model for scumplay and if GL as scum felt I was getting too threatening I could see him taking advantage of Luke here given he'd already laid he groundwork for pushing me.

Dunn can be town because he seems to earnestly care about convincing me I'm wrong on him when there's a chance I get voted out today, and I think if he's mafia he wouldn't care as much about trying to persuade me.

This is an experimental read I just made up, but I like the logic behind it.

after literally just playing against me as mafia feel like he should be more aware that this isnt my mafia game and also p sure he made a post earlier where hes like "when do i not have passion as a wolf" or something and like i can think of multiple times before where hes in fact been "down" or lower energy in games when it was beneficial so it's a nonpoint.

catboi, what do you think of this? Do you think it is a fair assessment?

The latter part is plausibly true but it was a game where I was struggling to keep up with a bunch of hyperposters and was AtE'ing to survive, which isn't really true in comparison to this.

I don't think her posting is meaningfully different from what I've seen of her scumgame, but like I'm not that good at this game so I could easily be wrong

If scum succeed at pushing me out today (which I now think probably happens because I underestimated how fickle certain people are), you two have to take charge of the game because it's a shitshow and I don't think anyone else knows how to find mafia

oh and work with dunn I guess - I'm still cautious about it but I think my last read on him makes sense and he knows how to cooperate

catboi you have 2 votes on you, you're not about to be eliminated

Both Luke and ydrasse are clearly willing to vote for me, cakez was toying with the possibility of voting me for ???reasons???. It's not hard to read the room and see there's support for eliminating me becaus I've pissed off half the game. I think you're the only one actually townreading me.

(If I squint and tilt my head, cakez so readily accepting the possibility of voting me when it became viable looks opportunistic. Maybe Bell is right there and I'm wrong, he has good instincts a lot of the time, I really don't know. You should probably trust someone else's judgment over mine).

I just...lack the will or the enthusiasm to fight off a wagon on me. I probably could do it but I'd have to get really mean to make it happen and I'm trying not to play that way. I don't think I'm so valuable to the town that I have to stay alive at all costs, I'm just a VT and I don't think my reads are anything special. Also when people tunnel me it more or less completely removes any chance I have of getting good reads, because I can't figure out if people pushing me are scum or just tunneled.

I see Luke replied to me but honestly I'm on the verge of passing out, I just wanted to address this before I went to sleep. hope this is reasonably coherent.

Preliminary reads based off what I've read so far:
Meuh — Probably town for claim; I don't think she would fakeclaim something like that
Pooky — Probably also town for claim
Dunn — I like their analysis, so maybe town
Luke — Null; I thought his predecessor was nullish and I haven't really caught up to when he starts posting
Bell — Null; Seems pretty chill, not sure what to make of it as I tend to associate town!Bell with being somewhat aggressive
GL — I've liked his early posts, so maybe nulltown?
Ydra — I feel like from her interactions with Cakez, they feel unaligned
Cakez — I tend to SR him because he usually feels scummy to me; I'm going to try to avoid confbiasing myself this time

Reading Luke's posts, I feel like his argument with catboi over the Dunn vote actually feel kinda towny. In that, it feels like he has genuine concern over catboi's motivations. And his 651 and 652 feel like he's trying to be nuanced, which doesn't really seem like something scum would do? Especially, since he could've take advantage of the increasing pressure.
But I'm leaning towards moving Luke up to my TRs.

i wasnt claiming venge and i think all of this like. stuff about it feels like wolves trying to react to something that literally isn't there
i'm vt
my flavor's catboi. this is why it was funnier before. i also did not want to claim because it's pretty easy now to narrow down what's left

I think this makes sense.

I don't think it makes them any more likely to be town though

True.
It's just that I thought Ydra's earlier statements made sense with the flavour claim.

I'm alright with mass claiming. Luke should probably claim what they saw first to verify their role.

This is a good idea.

I'm alright with mass claiming. Luke should probably claim what they saw first to verify their role.

i think luke should claim last in case he catches someone in a lie

Oh, maybe I should have fully read before I responded lol

At least, Dunn is confirmed to be a PR now.

TBH after Dunn claims, we should get Cakez to claim what PR he exactly is.

P-edit: TBH Beholder is a rare enough role that if Dunn actually is it, I'm going to question if it's a trueclaim.

I'm a 1-shot doctor

Flavor is Student Life's Mental Wellness Dogs

I targeted Lukewarm last night

That checks out, I guess?

I'm in co-op Baldur's gate, hence my terseness

I thought it strange that RH9 went straight to Beholder before I could claim my role

Cakez (I think?) was asking for plausible scum roles that would target Doc.
Beholder was one of them.

I do think 1073 is a weird perspective to have if you are a VT. I get that you will say that it slipped your mind but how?

I said 2 VTs as a reaction test to see if scum would take the bait and treat it as a slip, which seemed to have happened.
I feel like it might've gotten a bit out of hand, though.

One of my initial thoughts was that scum could have neapolitan, and that a miller would mess with their results rather than cop results, but that seems kinda silly? With no cop claim, I'm inclined to think they're just named townies at this point? No clue if this lines up with what Prism would do as a mod though

So, it'd figure one of Dunn/Cakez/GL isn't telling the truth, then?
Because Luke had no way of faking a result on Dunn, given he claimed first.

also his approach is not as townie as the other two

As in after the massclaim?
Because, you could be right on this.
The way Cakez has interacted with claims does feel townier than Dunn's.
(Though, I could biased in that I feel like if all PR claims are town, that means Mafia's basically hoping Luke wastes his last track on the PR claims. And that'd have to mean scum are doing pretty well at not getting any attention.)

I agree Luke's claim has to be town at this point because there's not enough town power otherwise

I'm thinking either

1) Cakez just trueclaimed his role as a scum RB
or
2) Dunn is some kind of scum investigative that targeted Luke

what's extra wonk is that neither Cakez nor Dunn see any issue with eachother's claims

I think at least to Dunn's credit he is just coming off kind of obtuse whereas Cakez pivoted from "scum in the PRs" to just immediately accepting Dunn's claim - feels like he may be strategically positioning and not wanting to make an enemy out of Dunn

This is a good point.
Dunn has been consistently been saying 'PRs are Town' (for reasons which I still don't agree with) but Cakez has only really been 'scum in RH9/GL' but he went from 'scum in Meuh/Dunn/Luke' to 'scum prob just Meuh' (given he seems to be TRing Pooky).
Eh. Maybe this really is a scum!Cakez world, after all.
Though, if Cakez is scum, then I'm stuck on who's his partner other than maybe the Miller claims.

I think rn I'm at one of Cakez/GL is scum along with one of the Millers.
P-edit: Maybe it could be GL/Dunn.

Eh.
Now I think about it, Cakez only makes sense as scum with Pooky.

And I don't think Pooky is scum.

At least, Pooky has came across as genuinely concerned town quite a bit.

I think the only way I live to tomorrow (to bring my second result) is if dunn is town, and 2-shot, and lied about being 1 shot in order to bait the kill into me.

Which is honestly the smart way for him to play being 2 shot.

And kind of smarter then a 1-shot dunn true claiming being 1-shot. (Actually 1-shot dunn should have claimed x-shot).

And dunn should probably not react to this post either.

I don't think Dunn is a gambity sort of player?
I might be wrong but the way Dunn's been playing makes me think it's unlikely he's 2-shot.
At best, we can hope Cakez is town and has not yet used his rb.

If you think that then it's weird that you are suspecting me after I got tracked to Lukewarm

I think you trueclaimed.
Your play makes only real sense if you really were 1-shot.

I kind of think we just yeet GuiltyLion here I believe in all my PRs

I guess this is OK with me.

what do you mean you guess? the alternative is you lol

Because there's still wagons on you/Dunn?
And chances are it's going to be between me/you/GL.

Dunn, don't you see?

He thinks you could be a true claiming, scum-aligned, 1-shot doctor (in a game with no Vigilante) who used their 1 shot to protect the town tracker.

That is not what I've been saying.
I'm saying that Dunn is probably trueclaiming the 1-shot aspect if he is really a town doc.

If you think that then it's weird that you are suspecting me after I got tracked to Lukewarm

I think you trueclaimed.
Your play makes only real sense if you really were 1-shot.

I can't tell if you are calling me town here, but if you are I feel like you were speculating that I may have been mafia earlier

Well. I felt like you could be scum, due to the fact that Cakez barely makes sense as scum with half of everybody but like you and Pooky.
And Pooky hasn't felt like scum to me, so reasonably this limits scum to you/GL/Cakez/Meuh.
However, I have been thinking that Cakez can actually be Town and I've been mindmelding with Meuh, leaving the scumpool to you/GL.
On the other hand, your play if town, makes more sense coming from a world where you trueclaimed than one where you're playing elaborate mindgames like Luke has been suggesting.

I kind of think we just yeet GuiltyLion here I believe in all my PRs

I guess this is OK with me.

what do you mean you guess? the alternative is you lol

Because there's still wagons on you/Dunn?
And chances are it's going to be between me/you/GL.

OK.
Maybe this is going to end up with what you've been saying.

To expand on my point in 1266, it is weird to me that RH9 has an impression of me that I don't gambit, but does not seem to be considering that when thinking I could be mafia. I think that if RH9 is being truthful, they should look at Luke's track result on me and conclude that I am more likely town than not, because to them I would have to be gambitting to be mafia.

Now that I am thinking about this, they also very quickly jumped to saying I might fake claim beholder at the start of the day. Doesn't this also contradict their thinking here, since that would be a gambit?

I

did not

suggest you fakeclaim Beholder.
Stop reframing the narrative.
I suggested Beholder is a

plausible scum role

you could have and

target Luke with

.
And anyways scum claiming doctor when tracked to the tracker is not gambity at all.
It's just what scum would do, since it's the most believable claim.

I wanna delve into this more at some point but reading through these interactions, I think this is a very plausible team here tbh
Catboi does scumread and vote Dunn early on but then throws out an "experimental read" on Dunn being town that he sticks to, and he has no problem shifting to Ydra instead
RH9 starts with a soft townread on Dunn, then shifts to questioning him more when the thread leans that way (notably with Pooky saying he was the most likely PR to be lying and me pushing Dunn), but is also willing to consider Cakez actually being scum instead when GL brings it up. Issue is that a lot of RH9's reads were influenced by the whims of the thread, so I don't really think his shifts here look super bad in terms of being paired with Dunn (though it definitely doesn't unpair them)

RH9 slot/Cakez doesn't really make sense to me either, Cakez' interactions with both Catboi and RH9 don't look paired at all to me

and I'm doubtful on GL/RH9 or Pooky/RH9 for mech reasons (although the latter is a bit more feasible)
Maybe that's just it

I think Cakez looks unpaired with RH9!!!

Spoiler:

Your annoyance at cakez and his vote was the thing that scared me a little bit on him because I can see him doing the overtly scummy thing as scum b/c he just doesn't care. However I've committed myself to shielding him for today, even if it makes me look foolish.

Also I think ydrasse is significantly scummier than cakez and I don't think they're ever a team so I'd want to flip her before him always. But that's just my opinion.

catboi I want to say is town but I'm worried he may be trying to pocket me so idk. Wouldn't vote rn but definitely not safe town

look i'm just trying to save you from being misyeeted for once in your career

ok well I appreciate you if you're town here <3
but if you're scum

I think GL accusing Cakez of chainsawing me is moving into "hard to fathom as being the real belief of a town player" territory. It's enough in the territory that I would be okay with voting him today, because his arguments have gotten continually worse, and look more like he's trying to "score points" with every attack rather than attempting to discern a perspective or actually investigate alignments. (I think even if he's town the way he's playing right is outright anti-town, not because he's reading me wrong but because of him tunneling in a single-minded fashion where everything someone does only adds further fuel to the fire. I think if allowed to live he will harm the town regardless of his alignment. That's simply how I've come to view this type of play. I've been guilty of it many times in the past (no pun intended), and part of the reason I've been playing restrained this game is to try to curb that tendency. I think he absolutely should not be allowed leadership/agency in this game).

Luke is simply mad I dared to suspect him. He is probably town and gets resolved mechanically either way. I wish he would not play so emotionally, but at his core he's still the same newbie I flew off the handle at for deathtunneling me a couple years ago.

I think Ydrasse's contributions to the game have overall been minimal to non-existant. Her main reads have been to defend elle for getting flustered, and OMGUSing Cakez. The elle read is not really logical because scum get flustered all the time, and instead comes across as white-knighting a player who was an early push. The Cakez read is entirely reactive and can easily be scum motivated. Beyond that, she shaded me for suggesting I'd be okay voting elle, and then shaded luke for calling her town. This is all play that is merely reacting to major events going on in the thread and responding to them, it takes very little effort. It doesn't feel investigative, like she's actually parsing the game and trying to figure anything out - rather she's simply commenting on big things or things that mention her. I think she is actively procrastinating on contributing to the thread and this is more likely to come from scum who is struggling to manufacture content.

I think the reasons that have been given for her being town are not very good. Guiltylion is suggesting her feeling concerned about the thread vibes being against her is a towntell. I think this is not convincing because it's ultimately a "vibe-based" read that is related t attitude, and that thing can be faked, or maybe she was just legitimately feeling threatened. Dunn says she is more charismatic as mafia early - again, this is a vibe-based read that is really not convincing. Luke is town reading her because she made a joke on page 1 and because she is defending his slot. I think this is obviously terrible reasoning n face value. Early game gutreads are not very likely to be accurate, and townreading someone simply for defending you means you are highly likely to fall into a pocket. Scum defend players who otherwise look to be uncontested wagons all the time. I think he is biased because he disliked being run up so quickly upon entering the game (which to be fair is an entirely understandable response), and so has latched on to anyone he saw as being protective of him.

That's my reasoning for Ydrasse being scum, it could be wrong, I don't think my read accuracy is particularly special. I would still prefer to flip her or GL if I'm voted out today.

---

It's very hard for me to explain how I'm reading pooky but I simply get the feel he is being genuine every time he posts, the way he spoke about me felt unrestrained and like it was coming from a town perspective. Similarly, Bell getting irritated with Cakez for the E-1 thing felt real and he keeps making his contributions that are slightly snarky but insightful. I buy what he's doing as town motivated

Meuh slightly less confident on but nothing she's posted has felt like t was not from a genuine perspective to me, and I still lean on the miller claim as being +town.

Dunn I had more as potential scum for POE reasons and some fear he may have been buddying me, but historically I'm not great at reading him. I thought there was simply a chance he was being overlooked.

As for Cakez, I wish I had an answer for why he felt like voting me before writing this post but I still felt like the response he had to pressure was towny in terms of how he was seemingly challenging people about voting him. I am also historically not great at reading him so my confidence level is not high, but that is the best I can manage. I think if Ydrasse flips mafia he is basically always town and should be treated as an innocent child.

I guess as a pure spitball guess GL/Cakez isn't impossible, at least off the top of my head

catboi the reason I was/am considering voting you is because your reaction to the recent pressure on you has felt off tonally, it feels like way more concerned with the votes then I feel like you'd normally respond as town. I mean just look at the last two pages - I feel like that claim was really dramatic and unprompted and it doesn't feel organic.

As for me "not actively trying to sort you" - you weren't here, dude. What are you expecting me to do when you're not posting in the game? Why do you think I didn't just vote you? I mean, probably because I'm still trying to sort you?

Now, GL gets a pass for this because he doesn't know my scumgame and is making the common fallacy that me lacking energy is a scumtell. But you - you've seen my scumgame. Do you think I, at any time as scum, come across as dispassionate? As lacking the will to put conviction behind a push?

like these are just gut feels really but this kinda felt like scum indignance at being pushed for something he thinks is NAI

Not primarily real time, more of a "wait and see" player. You were absent for a day and the most relevant stuff was seeing how you would respond to luke and what you'd do after that. I certainly don't feel like me voting you would have helped anything and I had nothing in particular I wanted to ask you.

I dunno, you're free to choose to not believe me if you want. I'm not that worried because I don't think I'll actually go over today. If you actually want to figure out if my read is genuine, ask me questions about it?

here's another example, this is one of those vibes where i can't really describe it that well, but like stuff like "you're free to choose not to believe me if you want" feels like such a weird thing to say from a catboi town PoV where he has indicated some suspicion of GL already

EBWOP - had one quote twice

but this is tough because I don't think catboi/GL make any sense as scum together and I also find things independently scummy from GL

but this is tough because I don't think catboi/GL make any sense as scum together and I also find things independently scummy from GL

How is that tough? Just kill the one you suspect more of being scum individually.

its tough because i find them independently scummy but them not being SvS means even if I'm right there's still another scum out there and I just keep going through the playerlist and being like who tf is scum this game

we have:
pooky and meuh the miller claims
luke who claimed pr
ydra who im really stuck with and keep going back and forth on
dunn who I think is playing like town here
and then you and honestly I don't know what to think about you this game Bell but I wouldn't vote you today

catboi the reason I was/am considering voting you is because your reaction to the recent pressure on you has felt off tonally, it feels like way more concerned with the votes then I feel like you'd normally respond as town. I mean just look at the last two pages - I feel like that claim was really dramatic and unprompted and it doesn't feel organic.

this is very par for the course

viewtopic.php?t=88098
viewtopic.php?t=87197
viewtopic.php?t=89595

Preliminary reads based off what I've read so far:
Meuh — Probably town for claim; I don't think she would fakeclaim something like that
Pooky — Probably also town for claim
Dunn — I like their analysis, so maybe town
Luke — Null; I thought his predecessor was nullish and I haven't really caught up to when he starts posting
Bell — Null; Seems pretty chill, not sure what to make of it as I tend to associate town!Bell with being somewhat aggressive
GL — I've liked his early posts, so maybe nulltown?
Ydra — I feel like from her interactions with Cakez, they feel unaligned
Cakez — I tend to SR him because he usually feels scummy to me; I'm going to try to avoid confbiasing myself this time

Does GL/Ydra make sense?? Is that a thing?

Well, I guess

if

Bell is town, that could be possible. And unless I've just been bamboozled and you/Ydra actually is a possible team, then it's likely either you/GL or Ydra/GL.
However, I had liked GL's early game, so I'm still uncertain rn between him and Bell. (I've felt that Bell has been appearing progressively towny in their ISO.)

Unhelpfully, I think I just tend to lean into TRing GL's posting style, so I probably won't vote for him today.
I'll reaccess Cakez/Ydra, just in case.

Unhelpfully, I think I just tend to lean into TRing GL's posting style, so I probably won't vote for him today.
I'll reaccess Cakez/Ydra, just in case.

As in Cakez/Ydra as a team, in case my preliminary read on them being unaligned was wrong.

TBH, what Luke said about Cakez being opportunistic was similar to something I had contemplated last night.
I'm just unsure if it's because he was trying to look out for an easy mislim or he genuinely SRed catboi and was willing to compromise on a non-GL wagon.

The thing is though, Cakez didn't really seem to express an SR on catboi until a wagon was becoming viable.

Maybe, I'm overthinking this but I would probably go for Cakez over Ydra rn.

You know what, maybe I should put my vote where my mouth is.
VOTE: Cakez

The thing is though, Cakez didn't really seem to express an SR on catboi until a wagon was becoming viable.

well obviously because catboi didn't become scummy until a wagon formed on him

actually no Bell is on me ofc lol so E-1

I thought you were on E-2?
Bell's voting Ydra, I'm pretty sure.

Though, Ydra was interested in voting you.

actually no Bell is on me ofc lol so E-1

I thought you were on E-2?
Bell's voting Ydra, I'm pretty sure.

oh, i didn't see the shift

Though, Ydra was interested in voting you.

yeah this is the dilemma catboi ended up in where he only had two votes I think but enough people were like "i'd vote him" that he felt a lot more pressure than that. or so he claimed at least.

yeah this is the dilemma catboi ended up in where he only had two votes I think but enough people were like "i'd vote him" that he felt a lot more pressure than that. or so he claimed at least.

I guess this is true.

sircakez and i being the two main wagons both on gl is very funny

That's the thing that's making me question if scum!you would rather choose to go for GL, who's unlikely to get limmed over putting Cakez on E-1 to save yourself.

VOTE: meuh
I don't think there are two millers this game. Stuff isn't adding up.

VOTE: Cakez
I don't like how he immediately went for Meuh.

Why do people object to my Meuh vote

Basically what Meuh has said.
Especially when you seemed perfectly fine with Meuh until today.
Like what happened to your read on GL?

Has anyone mentioned the mysterious disappearance of Cakez' GL scumread?

I've brought it up.

BTW, what do you make of Cakez's claim that he's a PR?

TBH after Dunn claims, we should get Cakez to claim what PR he exactly is.

VOTE: rh9
our work here is done

Cakez, do you still think Meuh is scum?

I'm in co-op Baldur's gate, hence my terseness

I thought it strange that RH9 went straight to Beholder before I could claim my role

Cakez (I think?) was asking for plausible scum roles that would target Doc.
Beholder was one of them.

I find it really hard to believe that RH9 was reaction testing

idk something about RH9 being SO honest about his VT slip almost makes me think it actually was town?? Like this is some shit I'd pull after forgetting half my role or something and slipping. I just don't even know what to make of this.

RH9 who do you think is scum?

At the beginning of this day, I thought it was Cakez but with his claim, I'm starting to get why he went after Meuh.
Because, honestly now it does feel a bit weird that there's no Cop but two Miller claims.
Feels like something doesn't add up. As it means assuming all claims are truthful, there's 4 VTs, 2 Named Townies (in that the Millers effectively serve as this without a Cop), a 2-shot Tracker, a 1-shot Doc and a 1-shot Roleblocker.
I'm thinking I need to re-evaluate the Miller claims rn.
Because those no longer feel as towny as they did before Cakez claimed. (Assuming Cakez is telling the truth.)
That said, I should probably UNVOTE: Cakez while I think about things.

So really, I think scum are in Pooky/Meuh/Cakez.

Dunn I agree the three of us are town. That means probably one scum in the two VT claims and one in the millers. I currently think Meuh and going back and forth on RH9 and GL.

also his approach is not as townie as the other two

As in after the massclaim?
Because, you could be right on this.
The way Cakez has interacted with claims does feel townier than Dunn's.
(Though, I could biased in that I feel like if all PR claims are town, that means Mafia's basically hoping Luke wastes his last track on the PR claims. And that'd have to mean scum are doing pretty well at not getting any attention.)

I agree Luke's claim has to be town at this point because there's not enough town power otherwise

I'm thinking either

1) Cakez just trueclaimed his role as a scum RB
or
2) Dunn is some kind of scum investigative that targeted Luke

what's extra wonk is that neither Cakez nor Dunn see any issue with eachother's claims

I think at least to Dunn's credit he is just coming off kind of obtuse whereas Cakez pivoted from "scum in the PRs" to just immediately accepting Dunn's claim - feels like he may be strategically positioning and not wanting to make an enemy out of Dunn

This is a good point.
Dunn has been consistently been saying 'PRs are Town' (for reasons which I still don't agree with) but Cakez has only really been 'scum in RH9/GL' but he went from 'scum in Meuh/Dunn/Luke' to 'scum prob just Meuh' (given he seems to be TRing Pooky).
Eh. Maybe this really is a scum!Cakez world, after all.
Though, if Cakez is scum, then I'm stuck on who's his partner other than maybe the Miller claims.

I think rn I'm at one of Cakez/GL is scum along with one of the Millers.
P-edit: Maybe it could be GL/Dunn.

Eh.
Now I think about it, Cakez only makes sense as scum with Pooky.

I think we should eliminate in the Miller or VT claims today

If both scum are in the PR/Miller claims then that would make both GL and RH9 town and I find that very hard to believe lol

I kind of think we just yeet GuiltyLion here I believe in all my PRs

I guess this is OK with me.

what do you mean you guess? the alternative is you lol

Because there's still wagons on you/Dunn?
And chances are it's going to be between me/you/GL.

If you think that then it's weird that you are suspecting me after I got tracked to Lukewarm

I think you trueclaimed.
Your play makes only real sense if you really were 1-shot.

I can't tell if you are calling me town here, but if you are I feel like you were speculating that I may have been mafia earlier

Well. I felt like you could be scum, due to the fact that Cakez barely makes sense as scum with half of everybody but like you and Pooky.
And Pooky hasn't felt like scum to me, so reasonably this limits scum to you/GL/Cakez/Meuh.
However, I have been thinking that Cakez can actually be Town and I've been mindmelding with Meuh, leaving the scumpool to you/GL.
On the other hand, your play if town, makes more sense coming from a world where you trueclaimed than one where you're playing elaborate mindgames like Luke has been suggesting.

I'd vote any of GL/RH9/Meuh

RH9 buddy can you let me know how you got from

So really, I think scum are in Pooky/Meuh/Cakez.

to

I kind of think we just yeet GuiltyLion here I believe in all my PRs

I guess this is OK with me.

My read on Cakez changed.
And GL moved back into my PoE, as I realised I had no reason to leave him out of it.

Yeah I'm down to yeet RH9 slot. I think I'm still voting there too?

VOTE: meuh whatever i feel like this is the best shot of hitting scum rn
GL vs RH9 feels like a coinflip
Pooky has read very town to me for pretty much the whole game
And then I've already talked about why I think Luke and Dunn are town

My main takeaway from looking at these interactions is Cakez being town tbh, more than any takeaway about being paired with RH9

This is possibly paired I guess? I think RH9's treatment of Ydra/Cakez looks kind of unpaired with Cakez though. The interactions there don't fit it and RH9's positioning makes more sense as scum not caring about who gets limmed than scum paired with Cakez, I'd say. There's also little bits here and there that look unpaired (RH9 being unsure if it was Cakez or someone else who asked him something, Catboi replying to Cakez with a bunch of game links) that add up in my eyes.

I back down on the unpaired thing but emphasize Cakez being town!!!!

Open question to the Player List:

If you were choosing between only Catboi/RH/Ali Slot and Cakez, which would you choose?

I’d stick to Alisae

Voice once again that I don't want to lim Cakez!!!

It’s just Dunn Pooky stop infighting

Maybe Dunn/GL but it’s Dunn either way

Make it clear that I don't see a scum Cakez world!!

Kinda think we should just dunk Meuh today, all four of us have her on all of our theoretical scum teams and so if she's town this game is just over already. Don't really want to spin wheels when that's pretty much the only place I see us ending up.

This is so lame, at least evaluate things. This whole “we only win in a theoretical scenario where someone specific is scum, so I’ll turn off my brain and hope that’s it” thing that’s being pushed today isn’t productive in the slightes

who do you want to yeet meuh

Still Dunn

Make it clear once more that I think Dunn is scum (and as I've said before, this makes Cakez town!)

This is a staucher defence of Cakez than anything you've done this game, cmon. All you've done is say "well I think all the PRs are town, yay!" which is technically pro-Cakez but also just what you'd want to push for your agenda
My stances around this were clear, and I've probably been the person who's been the least willing to lim Cakez since like mid-day 2. I didn't spend a bunch of time calling Cakez town at the start of this day because it was already pretty blatant that it was what I thought.

[Meuh]

Do you think it can be GL/Dunn? Do you even think it can ever be Pooky? If not, unless you think it’s me+Dunn, why don’t you want GL as the vote here?

I mean I've suggested it here
I think I'd slightly prefer doing Dunn just cause he's conf scum (whereas I could be wrong about GL)
But tbh I don't see a winning path if it isn't Dunn/GL and I don't have that much wiggle room here, so if you guys are eyeing a GL lim I'll hop on

[Meuh]

i'm tempted to hammer dunn but I wanna see what cakes thinks

Do it to honour Catboi

[Meuh]

i'm tempted to hammer dunn but I wanna see what cakes thinks

Do it to honour Catboi

wicked

I can't believe you would appeal to a dead player like that...

lukewarm too busy playing video games to save the village smh

Actually, was too busy going to see an Off-Broadway production of Wicked

How was Wicked Lukewarm

It was SO GOOD!

I had family come in from out of town to go see it, and it was a all around great time.

Would recommend.

Now Luke is going return from dead chat and protect you

[Meuh]

If I vote GL and lose to Pooky/Dunn I'll cry but also that would be really funny

[Meuh]

Decisions, decisions...

[Meuh]

I mean it's obviously not Dunn/Cakez
GL is 100% the vote from your POV
I'm just paranoid
Pedit: Ughhhhhhhh that's true

[Meuh]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

[Meuh]

Turning the ATE around on me is evil tbh

[Meuh]

UNVOTE:

[Meuh]

just wanted to conftown myself

So greedy actually wow

[Meuh]

If it's Cakez/Dunn I'll have to reconsider a lot of my life choices
Like at least a handful of them

[Meuh]

Hi I am meuh, Pooky we should kill all the townies

[Meuh]

FUCK WRONG THREAD

[Meuh]

Didn't think I'd ever say this here but I don't think that post from Dunn was outlandish tbh

[Meuh]

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Meuh]

anyway yah will post tomorrow love ya folks be safe enjoy yr Saturday

Where are the posts... I'm starving for posts right now...

[Meuh]

Yeah I want to point at the posts and go "heehee, look, that's scum"

[Meuh]

Dunn/GL as a team is definitely more winnable than Dunn/Pooky, especially with Cakez' stances here
So maybe I put all my eggs in one basket and go all in on that team
Pooky if you're town let's win this game

Yeah, I didn't try to hide this