Micro 1082 - I’m the Real Tracker (Day 4)

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hi!

UNVOTE: until i'm caught up.

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Spoiler: thoughts on pages 1-5 in no particular order

i townread the bingle claim until they posted 116. i think it's more likely than not that they're trueclaiming their role though. not going to elaborate unless necessary.

i can't wrap my one braincell around jason's claim plan but if y'all decide that's the plan i'm fine with it.
i really don't get why they think bingle should get policy executed though.

I mean I think we should just policy lim Bingle, because Seeking neighbor's shouldn't be top priority on anything, over getting useful information out of our information roles, and having them to be able to claim that information (which is now impossible, if we keep bingle alive, as claiming targets no longer works.)

Seeking neighbor's should have basically been treated as named Roles.

Does having them out really damage the plan that much though? If I'm reading your suggestion correctly a seeking neighbour would have one of the ones to claim randomly anyway, so I think the other roles are still protected by your idea.

Well any seeking neighbor, Pretender or otherwise targets Bingle, as you noted, a kill would make sense to go towards Bingle, so a Doctor probably needs to go there as well, and the way it was claimed means it could just be scum trying to justify targeting the kill by saying "i am targeting randomly" so Roleblock and Tracker could also make sense heading to Bingle.

All it really does is put all our information into a really shitty basket that says Neighborhood along the side.

or why they think a kill is headed there? or why bingle would claim that to supposedly get out of being seen killing? getting tracked to the nk is sus whether you've claimed or not.
roleblocker should only go there if they think bingle is scum.
so this is simultaneously implying that bingle is likely to get nightkilled (despite their role being kind of useless) and also that their claim is sus enough that it makes sense to roleblock them. idk if that's directly contradictory but it's odd.
this seems to continue in his later posts. interested to see how this plays out in later pages.

the kowah no-lim thing is pretty standard for them and might even be town-indicative. i've played with kowah as both alignments (as town in the game merlyn linked, i'm an alt of alianna, and as scum in this game) and i can confirm the no-execution thing isn't scummy for them. i don't think it really matters that they're pushing it in a different way here because the idea behind it is the same. they're still pushing the idea that no-executing d1 benefits the town. i can actually see town!kowah pushing the no-execution idea more strongly here because there are a lot of night actions in play and that would mean more info to be gained at night. they also didn't mention no-execution at all in the scumgame. my impression is that they genuinely believe a d1 no-execution is good for town and i think it's unlikely they push it here as scum.
i'm not quite sure what to make of bingle's take on it yet though. mayyybe town, especially since they don't have experience with kowah?

I have to disagree with that and I find it actually inherently scummy to be suggesting a no-lim with the intensity that you are. This is the only thing you're pushing and my gut reaction is that it stinks.

if someone earnestly believes in a no lim in this situation then they shouldn't push anyone so that they don't give scum information

I find it weird that there's no hesitancy from Merlyn in calling it specifically 'Not Scum Indicative.

Like they very clearly say that 'It's not scum indicative of them', which isn't preceded by an 'I think or anything like that - it's a very definite statement backed up by absolutely nowt.

I don't think whether or not she said "I think" matters a whole lot? She isn't proclaiming absolute grandstanding confidence. It's not like, a binary thing lol. Disagreeing with the meta read is fine, but getting uppity about this is weird!

I don't like the reasoning for either of your votes

VOTE: Delta

love this post even if it is a vote on my slot.
actually their entire push on delta was pretty solid.

nothing much to say about the others yet.

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Spoiler: thoughts on pages 6-9, which is not much

page 6 pc push is decently reasoned.


black's catchup post (165) is pretty good. i like her commentary on jason.

don as top tr in 168 is also an interesting stance. i don't agree with it, but i think black is towny for doing it.
she is the scum queen though...

jason is still not making sense through page 8 and i am experiencing a strong desire to yeet his slot into the stratosphere. which is exactly how i felt about him last time he was town.

these fences sure are nice to sit on!

page 9 makes my eyes glaze over. kind of want to lazily call black/jason tvt.

i haven't processed 224 yet.

[Abnegation]

taking a break from this thread for a few hours because, like i said, my eyes are starting to glaze over.

and this is why i said i was done with alting. i just like playing on this account. can't go a day without mainslipping though.

[Abnegation]

taking a break from this thread for a few hours because, like i said, my eyes are starting to glaze over.

taking a break from this thread for a few hours because, like i said, my eyes are starting to glaze over.

and this is why i said i was done with alting. i just like playing on this account. can't go a day without mainslipping though.

Jeez, just when I was townreading this slot, I see the wizard behind the curtain.

*ducks back behind curtain*

[Abnegation]

taking a break from this thread for a few hours because, like i said, my eyes are starting to glaze over.

and this is why i said i was done with alting. i just like playing on this account. can't go a day without mainslipping though.

relatable

some people use different themes on different accounts to prevent that, but i find that mafblack is the only theme that doesn't feel like staring at the sun lol.

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there should be more themes

i would love more dark themes.

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there should be more themes

i would love more dark themes.

Sounds so ominous

Hey it's my scumday!

i'm two hours behind you so the icon doesn't show for me yet, but happy scumday!

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Spoiler: pages 10-15

this is going to be a very select few posts that i comment on. the rest of what i have to say is more general/vibes-based and i'll address it in a bit.

i don't feel like reading don's walls but pc's reasons to vote them aren't very strong.

I also think donempire is slight scum for saying what he said about no lim being the worst option and not voting kowah.

advocating a bad play doesn't necessarily make someone scummy or warrant a vote.

Delta, why did you answer Invis's question and not mine?

But my statement is backed up by something- Kowah doing this as town in our previous game together. You were actually there too, though you replaced out pretty early, but I think you were still around when Kowah started advocating a D1 no lim policy there too.

I don't like meta reading someone if they are used to doing scummy things as town. The reason people including me were suspect on his no-lim gameplan was because it would be forcing town into hibernation. Playing the game simply in mechanical terms would only benefit scum here. If that is how he plays as town!kowah, then we need to warn him that this helps scum and be suspicious of him anyways as the facts of the matter dont change. And fwiw, i don't buy meta reads, so i'm plainly reading people as per their actions, not their intentions.

I don't believe spitballing ideas itself is scummy. However i don't believe kowah has done enough to convince us of his game plan, which also with him abandoning his no-lim idea as he votes bingle makes it seem as though he wasn't that committed to it in the first place and was just saying it to get some content out.

why didn't you warn kowah then that his actions were helping scum?

and I feel like you are assuming a lot in kowah's intentions like he did x so y must be true it doesn't follow logically. In fact his inconsistency does give me pause let me do y but do x instead. I think that itself is worth exploring. at what point does someone go from 'spitballing' to advocating?

@ kowah how attached are you to no limming day 1?

as they said, they did.

and i don't really get the assumption thing.

I'm not going to clutter by quoting a lot but I find it interesting that don says he likes invisibilities post and goes into a huge post about mechanical talk with kowah. feelweirdman.

and why is this weird?

240 good post.

I can kind of understand why Kowah thinks that discussion doesn't hurt the proposed no lim, fwiw, and at this point I agree that the belief is a genuine one.

Kowah, what do you think about Merlyn's meta defense of you? Reasonable, unreasonable, banana?

I don't believe meta exists. I am fine with people using it if they feel they must, but to me it's usually coming from an egotistical mind set that "I'm able to solve this game when it can't be solved because of this other game". No one wants to admit that Day 1 is a crap shoot at best so someone invented meta reads as a way to act like they're special.

From my experience with them, this is not a reflection on Merlyn as they do not seem like an egomaniac or anything and this is just my opinion of the general use of meta.

The only real game thought I had from Merlyn making that post is that it was scummy from them and it was an over correction from the previous game we were in. It felt like an attempt to buddy me because they spent most of that game attacking me (scum!merlyn trying a different approach to me since I caught them at the end in that game), so

they decided to mention a meta read from that game where I was town and (I felt) give me a soft town read, but then double backed and said it wasn't even a town read, which really didn't make any sense because all the wording really made me think it was, but then when they started seeing how many people picked up on it they wanted it to go back to neutral OR realized they were linking a game to this thread where they were scum and maybe they rolled scum again and didn't want anyone being able to use the same thing on them. It felt like they made the post and brushed it under the rug soon after.

Like I get this is a huge stretch, but I am just opening up my thought process to put the thoughts into words. The meta read felt scummy to me, but I also think I'm overreacting to it. I also feel like I'm getting too close to letting meta guide my thoughts a bit here by using a previous game to support a reason someone is scum this game.

were you saying what you thought then or do you still believe these things? because merlyn didn't actually do any of that. she said you advocating for no-execution wasn't scum-indicative (in other words, didn't make you look scummier), not that it was town-indicative. she didn't change her stance on you at all. there was no tr there to double back on or brush under the rug.

Also I do love repping into Jason's spot, gives me some much needed real time insight into their town game lol.

this might be a tinfoily reason to townlean someone, but i think this is a real thought. nobody from those last couple of games was in this game at the point in time doc said this, so unless there's more context i'm not aware of, i don't see what would prompt him to fake this thought as scum.

This post really seems like you are trying to make a case when it isn't there Black.

How? There's a contradiction in Kowah's words and his actions. I don't think I'm fabricating anything about that

And I do like PC's question here.

I don't understand why...I think it's pretty obvious how I feel about Kowah

I don't think you should discount your original position Dr. if how you felt is x it is incorrect for black to say well I felt y a long time ago it doesn't change the fact of the interaction in fact it makes your observation more relevant imo.

Don't try and manipulate me.

I felt like they were trying to stear me in a direction and doing in a way like 'hey buddy, have some confidence in yourself', if that makes sense. Like they were doing me a favor.

It was a snap judgment that I immediately felt after reading it.

i liked the vibe of the original post and the follow-up here and in 372 is pretty good.

also i have no idea what pc is doing and i mean that in a sus way, not a null way.

[Abnegation]

unofficial vc so i don't hammer anyone:

donempire (e-2): political clout, kowahbunga, doctor drew
kowahbunga (2): black, donempire
political clout (2): invisibility, appearance
doctor drew (1): bingle

not voting (1): abnegation

[Abnegation]

alright, so here's where i'm at.
bingle/dr. drew/invis/kowah are all townleans of various degrees and i wouldn't vote them today.
black is a bit of a complicated read. i don't find her scummy, but i also know she's good at scum and i don't expect scum!her to play in a scummy way. might be better to give this one some time.
don is null because i'm too lazy to read his wallposting. appearance is null due to lack of content.
i'm fine with pc wagon.

VOTE: political clout

e-2.
also, mech question. is there a benefit to having people claim at e-1/intent in this setup?

[Abnegation]

i had a dream that invis was mafia.

I SWEAR I SIGNED INTO ABNEGATION BEFORE I TYPED THAT.

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i should just rep in on my main at this point. i'm comically bad at alting lol.

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I would also say that political clout is a townlean for now. I might elaborate if needed.

This is the only read I don't get. PC's reads don't really mesh with mine and I also don't really like how he jumped on your wagon

So uhh.... i think you two would be mad if i said i forgot, and i swear i had a post in his iso i was going to show, but i can't find it now so...

Weathers mighty fine isn't it? It's been raining here in Ankara non stop for about 2 weeks now. I live in whats essentially steppe climate and even here we had really lush greens due to the constant raining. Pretty cool right?

i wish it would rain here. canada is being ravaged by wildfires and the air quality is terrible.

/oog
My condolences! I have friends in the DC area and they told me the fires even reached where they were living so i can't even imagine what it is for someone living in Vancouver or Montreal. Apparently western canada also had some wildfires a few months back and now its stabilized, hopefully everything gets better for you soon.

i'm in western canada, it's unfortunately still on fire.

i feel slightly less lazy today so maybe i'll actually read your iso.

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@don - your reasons to vote kowah are fair, i just disagree with them. i don't think it's lack of conviction in a no-execution plan that's causing them to abandon the idea and vote people anyway. my impression of their posting is that they see their plan is highly unlikely to go anywhere and find it pointless to keep pressing the issue. to me, that's a plausible mindset to have as town. kowah, feel free to correct me on any of that if i've misread your posting.

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also, what's your read on pc right now?

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that's actually e-1 because i voted.

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@don - your reasons to vote kowah are fair, i just disagree with them. i don't think it's lack of conviction in a no-execution plan that's causing them to abandon the idea and vote people anyway. my impression of their posting is that they see their plan is highly unlikely to go anywhere and find it pointless to keep pressing the issue. to me, that's a plausible mindset to have as town. kowah, feel free to correct me on any of that if i've misread your posting.

It's one way to read it. But i believe post 243 contradicts your logic, as he says he "doesn't want to ruin 8 people's game" for his pushing this plan. If your theory is right and he is town pushing an idea he finds plausible, why would he be worried pushing this further would damage the game? The way he talks about it, it's a strategy that would break open the game, his exact words in his second post. So why would he not be steadfast on such a good strategy? For me, the pressure was starting to mount on him with a small wagon forming, so he tried to go back to tried and truth mafia gaming instead of raising too much eyebrows by having to defend his idea. As scum, you wouldn't want to be put under the spotlight, as town though it shouldn't matter being on e-1 if you were sure of your strategy and wanted it implemented.

Also the way he said 8 people is also suspect to me, as for town!kowah that also includes the 2 scum. Might be a personality thing, but if i had a button that revealed the 2 scum with no strings attached, i would press it as well as post mocking videos after the fact. So unless it's his conscience getting the best of him, why would he be afraid of ruining the game of scum? Maybe i'm overthinking it.

I understand your point. As scum you don't really have a benefit in pushing a dead on arrival strategy with such fervor. Since we've talked about his posts in detail already, i would also say it's important to consider how much of his posting has malice and how much of it has to do with ineptidute.

also, what's your read on pc right now?

i was actually thinking of 243 when i wrote that.
i think you're right that personality may have something to do with it, and i also think you're misreading some context, but i don't know what more to say that hasn't already been said.

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it would probably be good for kowah to respond to this discussion themself.

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and i will take this pagetop.

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alright, so here's where i'm at.
bingle/dr. drew/invis/kowah are all townleans of various degrees and i wouldn't vote them today.

Any particulars you can share on the Drew townlean, esp since you were picking up what I was putting down about JW's push just not making any sense?

I don't really hate anything Drew's done, but I also don't see anything super towny.

i quoted a couple of things at the end of 400.

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@bingle - since you were talking about meta from newbie 2118 earlier, what's your take on jason's mech talk that game? i'm not telling you to go re-read the whole thing if you don't want to, but i would be interested to hear if you think it's relevant or changes anything from a meta perspective. this post is the one that comes to mind for me. it's also got the aiming of power roles that you were talking about earlier.

[Abnegation]

alright, so here's where i'm at.
bingle/dr. drew/invis/kowah are all townleans of various degrees and i wouldn't vote them today.

Any particulars you can share on the Drew townlean, esp since you were picking up what I was putting down about JW's push just not making any sense?

I don't really hate anything Drew's done, but I also don't see anything super towny.

i quoted a couple of things at the end of 400.

i will say, it's not too strong of a townlean. my reads on you and kowah are both stronger. i just wouldn't vote there today.

[Abnegation]

@bingle - since you were talking about meta from newbie 2118 earlier, what's your take on jason's mech talk that game? i'm not telling you to go re-read the whole thing if you don't want to, but i would be interested to hear if you think it's relevant or changes anything from a meta perspective. this post is the one that comes to mind for me. it's also got the aiming of power roles that you were talking about earlier.

Reading that post in Isolation makes me think it's an improper application of a Nash equilibrium, but I'd have to read for context.

It is true enough to say that a Doc should always target an outed investigative role. The idea that they shouldn't is part of the aforementioned Nash equilibrium concept where it is sometimes optimal to make a suboptimal choice to subvert the opponent always making the optimal choice. (In this case, doc should always target tracker which means that scum shouldn't target tracker and should go doc hunting, which means that doc should maybe target someone who looks doccish like 5% of the time so that scum might instead choose to target the tracker somewhere like 2% of the time which adjusts up and down based on both parties' understanding of the equilibrium. It's a rather fascinating concept, actually.) JW is also just flat wrong in that a tracker poses no threat to scum.

there is some...interesting follow-up discussion on pages 21 and 22 of that game.
the reason i brought it up is that, as much as i'd like to scumread jason's scummy mech spec this game, i don't know if i can really take that position when i consider previous games. i feel like maybe i'm overrelying on meta but idk.

[Abnegation]

12 hours left on deadline. i'll be around for 3-4 more hours but i doubt i'll wake up before the deadline hits tomorrow.
my vote is unlikely to move at this point.

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I don't scum read Kowah, I think I have finally settled on that lol.

why is that? is it related to their recent posting?

[Abnegation]

stealing the mod's job again (sorry gif):

political clout (e-2): invisibility, appearance, abnegation
donempire (e-2): political clout, kowahbunga, doctor drew
kowahbunga (1): black
doctor drew (1): bingle

not voting (1): donempire

[Abnegation]

i could maybe switch to don, definitely don't tr them even after reading their posts, but this wagon is fine.

[Abnegation]

i could maybe switch to don, definitely don't tr them even after reading their posts, but this wagon is fine.

why are you voting PC?

few things.
- i agreed with the initial push on them by you and invis on page 6. i hate the reactivity tell most of the time but the way it was used there made sense.
- their vote on don was weak (explained that in one of those spoilered catchup posts, forget which one).
- i find their vibes to be questionable. is that a good reason? maybe not lol but it's d1.

[Abnegation]

i am questioning why doc took issue with invis questioning me.
i thought that question was a fair one, given that all my reasons were in spoilers.

[Abnegation]

I just mean why are you upset that someone is voting your, I can only assume, top scumread?

oh I'm not upset at all. Sorry if that was unclear

Then I don't understand your question to her.

I wanted to know if it was an SR or like just a compromise lim type thing if she was willing to vote Don

it's kind of both.

[Abnegation]

given that all my reasons were in spoilers

oh did I just miss them LOL

yeah, didn't want to clog the thread with my catchup posts even though it's nowhere near as extensive as what some people do.

[Abnegation]

Also I should say that I am feeling very empowered right now after Invis's game that just ended, subbed in and caught scum right away.....despite the scum winning it made me feel good in my vibes first strategy lol.

trust in the vibes .

Also, Alianna, end gamed reminded me of Chatgpt where i had scum dead to rights but scum weaseled their way out of it.

You remember right?

When you were scum?

i think i remember that, yes.
i know you're plotting to get your vengeance one of these days and it makes me slightly paranoid.

[Abnegation]

i am questioning why doc took issue with invis questioning me.
i thought that question was a fair one, given that all my reasons were in spoilers.

on the contrary, i actually find it townish for drew to poke on that

it makes more sense after 469.

[Abnegation]

i will take this pagetop too.

[Abnegation]

what's up with you talking about who you think the investigatives should check? this wouldn't be the first time you've done that today.

[Abnegation]

what's up with you talking about who you think the investigatives should check? this wouldn't be the first time you've done that today.

i'll explain tommorow
(it's to do with my role)

interesting.
i am debating whether to ask you which investigatives you think should be on invis.
is that a question you can answer?
because it's kind of useless for a tracker to go there now if they're trying to catch a killer, and inspector is just worse watcher.

[Abnegation]

^
tracker thing is assuming people go with your plan of course.

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well i didn't say they had to answer. i'm just confused by it. also i don't see how that helps me determine what invis' role is, which would be the point of rolefishing if i'm not misunderstanding.

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yep, i said invis when i meant appearance. my bad.

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uhhhhhh, no.
i strongly object to the idea that voting to end the day 12 hours before deadline in a game where the deadline is 9 days + extensions is in any way suspicious. also dr. drew had previously stated he wouldn't be around at deadline.
i can see a world where you just forgot that time zones exist but i think that's sus of you.
i'll only be up for another hour-ish though and i don't think switching to you is viable. pc is still sus and better than a no-execution.

[Abnegation]

ok maybe i wouldn't switch to you for just that but that's a weird thing to shade someone for.

[Abnegation]

alright, so here's where i'm at.
bingle/dr. drew/invis/kowah are all townleans of various degrees and i wouldn't vote them today.
black is a bit of a complicated read. i don't find her scummy, but i also know she's good at scum and i don't expect scum!her to play in a scummy way. might be better to give this one some time.
don is null because i'm too lazy to read his wallposting. appearance is null due to lack of content.
i'm fine with pc wagon.

VOTE: political clout

e-2.
also, mech question. is there a benefit to having people claim at e-1/intent in this setup?

I think I overlooked this...can you explain your Kowah townread?

perhaps putting my catchup posts in spoilers was a bad idea. one second, i'll find all the relevant stuff and quote it.

[Abnegation]

the kowah no-lim thing is pretty standard for them and might even be town-indicative. i've played with kowah as both alignments (as town in the game merlyn linked, i'm an alt of alianna, and as scum in this game) and i can confirm the no-execution thing isn't scummy for them. i don't think it really matters that they're pushing it in a different way here because the idea behind it is the same. they're still pushing the idea that no-executing d1 benefits the town. i can actually see town!kowah pushing the no-execution idea more strongly here because there are a lot of night actions in play and that would mean more info to be gained at night. they also didn't mention no-execution at all in the scumgame. my impression is that they genuinely believe a d1 no-execution is good for town and i think it's unlikely they push it here as scum.

okay, turns out it was just one paragraph before the post you quoted. it's a meta read.

[Abnegation]

uhhhhhh, no.
i strongly object to the idea that voting to end the day 12 hours before deadline in a game where the deadline is 9 days + extensions is in any way suspicious. also dr. drew had previously stated he wouldn't be around at deadline.
i can see a world where you just forgot that time zones exist but i think that's sus of you.
i'll only be up for another hour-ish though and i don't think switching to you is viable. pc is still sus and better than a no-execution.

Well i just woke up so it's 12 hours for me. Morning

I still believe the game is far from being solved. The 3 replacements are one reason, appearence and pc being inactive is another. 20 pages in 10 days is nothing.

good morning!
i'm not saying the game is solved. it doesn't have to be solved on d1.

[Abnegation]

here's hoping!

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i went to lock the thread and then i remembered i'm not the mod.

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gg and thanks for modding gif! i know things didn't exactly go as they were supposed to, but it was fun for the two irl days i was alive.
speaking of that, how dare you kill me n1 again!

[Abnegation]

stop rolling scum so much and i won't know you're scum next time!

[Abnegation]

i wonder if we're ever getting the pts.
i asked, like, 3 days ago but no response.
i want to read the scum's murderous plots.