Micro 1060: Radiology Mafia [Game Over]

[Hiraki]

ego post

pronoun key is actually helpful even though i try to avoid pronouns at this point anyway - you can put mine down as he/him/his

VOTE: Marcistar

[Hiraki]

VOTE: RadicalRat in an Noir crime drama - never trust a rat

I don't know why but when I read this post I got a strong feeling that you were scum like some sort of supernatural entity was trying to send me a message

(yes i'm being overdramatic allow it)

VOTE: Juice

Weird post.

[Hiraki]

This game is already to a very confusing start when half of the player base has already pinged me in a bad way. I feel like it's me and Meg against the world here.

[Hiraki]

This game is already to a very confusing start when half of the player base has already pinged me in a bad way. I feel like it's me and Meg against the world here.

What has pinged you as scummy so far?

I would need to go post by post on individual separate pings. I'm trying not to be a hardo but I see scum on both sides. Aisa vs Juice is the only thing that is starting to look like TvT but it's really just a glimmer at this point.

[Hiraki]

Hiraki why does meg stand out?

Meg has been a voice of reason for the last few pages. I generally agree with her takes.

Ausuka v marci for the last few pages is cluttered and useless and is generally anti-town on the side of marci for being blunt and obtuse rather than trying to solve something. If Ausuka is being this obtuse, it should be an obvious scumread. To me, it feels like potential SvS but that's really reaching at this point. It just does not feel natural and even game relevant going by the latest post.

[Hiraki]

Ausuka's frustration seems genuine to me, and Marci is blatantly trolling and egging them on.

Correct - this is the perceived motion. To me, town normally does not act in a behavior to cause so much disruption. Acting that way, then getting run up, only for someone (generally town) to then say "hey, this is kind of dumb" is a textbook scumplay to me. It gives them both independent town points while actually being on the same dependent team. It is not supposed to be SvS on first thought but behind the surface layer I think it becomes more probable than TvT. TvS is also probable but really dumb in the long run.

IM NOT A TROLL BTW.. I DID ALREADY EXPLAIN IT AUSUKAS JUST IDIOTIC

Yeah, this whole "It's not me guys!!! It's Ausuka!" when

literally

no one agrees with this take either means marci is VI or scum with Ausuka. I really think it should overall be ignored today (I don't really buy Ausuka's point either) but I don't think it should be forgotten.

I'd be interested to hear more about this - what about the interaction seems SvS?

Just to be clear, Juice is referring to my post.

I also think that Ausuka's playstyle is just more detail and very structure oriented. I used to have a phase like this earlier but it makes super giant walls that can get very confusing overall versus fast speedy points (both for town and scumplay).

None of Hiraki, Herta or Juice feel like they have a towny push on Marci.

For someone who likes details, you really don't like to give them yourself. I also feel like this entire post is a really weird retraction of something that you actually had a valid point on (regardless of the fact that I disagree with where the point is going). Note that in my original post I said that SvS was a

reach

and Ausuka is giving some major OMGUS vibes. I am a little confused because they feel potentially town in the way that they are not outward but that can also be from scum. It just feels more townie to me though - until -

Herta's vote on Marci is the worst and while I don't think his play is like *that* scummy I think the jump on her is ?probably? More likely to come from scum than Hiraki and Juice and if I'm looking for scum on the Marci wagon I would start there

This post is the worst because it's almost assuming that Marci is town. I think Marci is absolutely the best flip for today for information at the very least.

You baffle me

I agree with this but I get 100x more town vibes from Juice's non-reactions than Ausuka's random flip because the wagon on marci is 'bad'.

Keep in mind that you made a good point earlier specifically defining what Ausuka was looking for - which I don't really makes sense considering that xyrs point is that xe sees an SvS teaming. I think that's pretty bad reasoning but I'm willing to accept it for the current moment. In the current moment, Marci has done nothing but tunnel a counterargument and launched insults.

I'd also like to point out that I really have a problem with Radical Rat's progression here. Major red flags below.

VOTE: Herta

I think the RVS posting looked weirdly self-conscious, and I think there should be more pressure here

We start out with a naked pressure vote (coincidentally the worst way to pressure someone). Herta posts but then does not respond and then gets into an argument with Juice.

You didn't, but that doesn't change the essence of my point. I thought you were, based on having a newbie-like reaction to getting RVS wagoned, and having a very recent join date, and so I treated you as such.

Okay, this is somewhat fair (I don't agree with it).

You didn't correct me then, but now that I know you aren't new I obviously am not going to treat you or your posts the same way.

So let's be super clear here. Radical Rat is running under the following fact pattern:

1) Juice

says

xe's not new. However, you got the inkling that xe is new. So the thought process here is that because xe says xe is experienced - you are going by xyrs words rather than by the feeling you had? How do you actually know that Juice isn't new? I can tell you I'm new - are you going to believe that on a whim? It would be pretty inconsistent, right? It's the flip of the role that you just laid out.

2) Herta doesn't need pressure anymore. We have 12 days left. ?????

3) Not to mention - the reaction in 7 pages was

so

bad that it made you okay with going for an E-2 vote?

I'm okay with Marci/Radical Rat at this point. Both are good flips.

Post-Edit:

I'm giving you every lifeline I can here.
Mafia is very much a team sport. It is about persuasion, deception, deduction, but most importantly cooperation. If you are town, your goal isn't just to figure out scum. It is to figure out and persuade others that scum is scum.

In that same vein saying 2 players are the scumteam while not supplying evidence and dying for it would not be helpful to the town, regardless of whether that solve is correct or not.

I agree with this which is why I'm confused why you're questioning Juice in this manner. Maybe you are ignoring your gut - which is respectable.

[Hiraki]

It's not naked though. I clearly say it's because his posting looked weirdly self-conscious.

You literally called it a pressure vote. It's naked.

And then me switching my vote to Juice is not in any way an exoneration of Herta? I move my vote to who I think is most likely to be scum, and right now that's Juice. Does that mean I think Herta is Town now? No. Does it mean I don't want pressure on Herta? No. All it means is that right now, in this moment, Juice is who I scumread the most.

And so do other people - so when I accuse you of 'dropping' Herta. You may not 'mentally' drop it but now your naked pressure vote is gone so you have lost all avenues to pressure Herta...in order to join the leading wagon of the day. That doesn't sound very weird to you? You vote because someone you think is scum rather than voting to get information first - especially on Day 1?

And... yeah, I'm fine with an E-2 vote? I like E-2. It's the perfect balance of genuinely threatening, yet safe enough not to cause accidental claims or eliminations.

The wagon hit E-1 only 5-10 posts later. That doesn't sound very safe to me.

That doesn't jibe with a townie mindset.

In textbook, agreed. I am starting to think Juice is just a troll at this point - something that does not help with alignment.

This is a lovely interaction I had with Marci in ELO in our last game together when she was town. I think it's reasonable to believe that her behaviour here is within her townrange.

There is a pretty clear difference in tone and insult throwing here.

[Hiraki]

everything thats about me is so boring did hiraki say anything else other than the fact that im a good elimination

I didn't even talk about you. Try using something other than Control F to read.

[Hiraki]

Herta's jump on Marci felt convenient and like he was trying to give the bare minimum explanation? I can't explain it that well but I didn't like it. Your vote was leftover from RVS and you didn't really explain much why you thought Marci was scum - I still townlean on you overall but I think I'm right that it wasn't a towny push on your part. Juice's jump on Marci, like Herta, was convenient and seemed a bit shallow, but the vote putting her at E-1 made it so blatantly suspicious, that I thought it was less scummy than Herta's overall.

Do you not see the irony in saying this and looking at the Juice wagon - which actually got to E-1 - but you have not made the same point about that?

I actually agree with you that Herta's change is a little strange to me but it's not at all 'convenient'. It's the second vote on the wagon after Herta already asks a question.

Your vote was leftover from RVS

That's a pretty bad assumption. I try my best not to participate in RVS because I think it's dumb but necessary. My vote was never RVS.

and you didn't really explain much why you thought Marci was scum

Do people need to explain their votes? Maybe this goes into a little bit of theory but I don't think you need to explain a vote until you actually want support on it.

Uh, no it doesn't. I can call out a vote that I see as bad without assuming the person being voted is town. Even disregarding that everyone is more likely than not to be town at this stage regardless of my read on them, scum vote each other literally all the time.

This isn't really addressing the actual topic on hand here. If you call out the wagon but you think the person is still scum, you think that scum is joining a scum wagon on Day 1 to gain credit. That's a really weird buss to make before the 10th page. Saying 'scum vote each other literally all the time' is correct but they don't do it for nothing - which is something that you're accusing almost every person in your explanation above of doing.

[Hiraki]

I mean, if we're just going to disagree - I'd rather not continue with this dialogue. It seems pretty obvious to me so I'd like to hear what others think.

[Hiraki]

The test just feels like the ultimate "haha, gotcha suckers..." - it's moderate trolling at this point.

[Hiraki]

I don't think they approach the wagon in the way they did if it was actually a reaction test. Especially since they ignored a lot of questions, at least a few of which were more general and not about the push they now say is a test.

Correct. I agree with you that this whole 'test' is not genuine. My point is that I'm not sure if it comes from town or scum. Gut says town but I really don't trust my gut here.

[Hiraki]

The wagon hit E-1 only 5-10 posts later. That doesn't sound very safe to me.

And then it dissolved immediately, with Juice perfectly unharmed. That doesn't sound very dangerous to me.

So you voted knowing that it would go down? Are you a fortune teller?

You're continuing to call it a naked pressure vote which is just factually incorrect;

Okay - let's play this game. What is your definition of a naked pressure vote?

Because here's mine. It's a vote where you openly state that you are voting someone for pressure reasons. I don't need to quote - those boxes are checked. I don't know what other definition you could have but I'd consider it an abnormal definition.

And there's also the insinuation that because I wanted to apply pressure, it wasn't a real vote. It very much was, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

No - that's not the point. The point is that if you call it a vote for pressure, the person who is being voted knows that they do not need to worry about it as long as they ignore it. That's why the vote in itself was already off to a bad start. I never said anything about it being a bad vote. You could have a lot of good reasons (of which you have not talked about) behind the vote but instead, you voted because:

I think the RVS posting looked weirdly self-conscious,

and I think there should be more pressure here

Bolded for emphasis.

I don't think they approach the wagon in the way they did if it was actually a reaction test. Especially since they ignored a lot of questions, at least a few of which were more general and not about the push they now say is a test.

Correct. I agree with you that this whole 'test' is not genuine. My point is that I'm not sure if it comes from town or scum. Gut says town but I really don't trust my gut here.

Your gut says being disengenuous is towny?

In this fashion, I've seen it done more as town than as scum. It's not anything I'd like to bet on but it's something I'd use if I had to bet on it.

[Hiraki]

You refuse to participate in discussion directly adressed at you.
Even if you aren't being actively Anti-town, you are refusing to engage in pro-town behavior, at all.

If you aren't going to help town play the game then I see no reason not to eliminate you. At worst we lose a non-player.

Actually, that's not how this works at all.

why are you engaging with them if theyre clearly not trying to help town? if you think that just move on and try to sort others..?

how am i not helping town? just because you dont understand my style of play.

Know that I am here saying that you are probably going to flip town but I never want to play with you again because of this annoying playstyle.

Wooooooahhhhh guys! You think I'M unhelpful?!?! HAHA! You actually look bad for stating your opinion!

What's my opinion?!? Woooooaaaaahhhh guys!! I'm being run up!!! That's trash!!!

What about Meg's early play makes them the only good one?

It was the only logical one.

@marci

Spoiler:

Anyway I think marci is town.
Johnny's catch-up is *fine I suppose. I don't want to elim there today at least.


RR
Marci

Aisa
Johnny/Herta
Ausuka/Hiraki

Juice

Yeah I'm definitely going to need an RR explanation here.