Micro 1060: Radiology Mafia [Game Over]

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Aisa

I don't find that image cute at all, and in fact it is mildly unsettling to me.

[Radical Rat]

My oh my, what a wholesome smiley face, Juice.

Fishing for a reaction.

What did you think I was going to say? I mean this as a genuine question, not in a passive-aggressive way.

Why would you think I'm lhf instead of scum?

Had to Google lhf and the first result was Latvian Hockey Federation, lol.

I didn't particularly think you were low-hanging fruit in the sense of a good elimination. Nor did I think you were scum, it was just one of those posts you make in RVS.

Hey Juice, do you think I'm town?

Stop dodging the question, do you or do you not believe Herta to be a member of the Latvian Hockey Federation?

[Radical Rat]

Two more people can hammer me right now - I don't care about dying Day 1 in a mafia game. Everyone on the wagon - would look DAF though afterwards for pushing a RVS wagon

You seem to be pretty fresh based on your join date, so I understand the apprehension, but this is pretty normal here actually. It also doesn't even immediately end RVS a lot of the time.

It's not as dangerous as it seems, because an undue quickhammer, ESPECIALLY one with two players coordinating, is incredibly suspicious and likely to end with the hammerer being next on the chopping block.

Dancing on that knife's edge, staring death in the face though is always intimidating, and thus generates reactions that can help sort alignment, and that's why RVS wagons happen.

For example, I think being afraid of a quickhammer here means you're probably Town

[Radical Rat]

Aisa seems town rn so does the rat.

At the time you wrote this my only posts were low effort jokes. Why does that seem Town to you?

[Radical Rat]

I've been kinda tuning out this whole argument, but skimmed through it and SvS seems like a weird conclusion to jump to. Ausuka's frustration seems genuine to me, and Marci is blatantly trolling and egging them on.

It's either TvT or Marci alone is scum.

Though also I must confess that the hammer is looking incredibly juicy, and though I know I shouldn't, the temptation wells within me....

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Herta

I think the RVS posting looked weirdly self-conscious, and I think there should be more pressure here

[Radical Rat]

Yeah this whole exchange does seem scum vs. scum on surface level - but if its just one scum in the interaction I wold suspect its marcistar. The whole last few posts just feels very forced.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Marcistar

I'd be interested to hear more about this - what about the interaction seems SvS?

I strongly disagree that what I was saying about marci isn't game related btw - although it is true a lot of the argument ended up being clutter because we kind of went around in circles, she was making a meta point and I think talking about the game she was referring to helps explain my perspective her read might have been TMI.

Ive played mafia to know what scum vs. scum chats can possible be - and on Day 1, I am willing to to take more risks. If you were both scum - I would not be shocked

So you've played enough Mafia to be able to recognize SvS play... but not enough to realize RVS wagons are a normal occurrence and not usually particularly dangerous?

[Radical Rat]

Yeah this whole exchange does seem scum vs. scum on surface level - but if its just one scum in the interaction I wold suspect its marcistar. The whole last few posts just feels very forced.

UNVOTE: VOTE: Marcistar

I'd be interested to hear more about this - what about the interaction seems SvS?

I strongly disagree that what I was saying about marci isn't game related btw - although it is true a lot of the argument ended up being clutter because we kind of went around in circles, she was making a meta point and I think talking about the game she was referring to helps explain my perspective her read might have been TMI.

Ive played mafia to know what scum vs. scum chats can possible be - and on Day 1, I am willing to to take more risks. If you were both scum - I would not be shocked

So you've played enough Mafia to be able to recognize SvS play... but not enough to realize RVS wagons are a normal occurrence and not usually particularly dangerous?

If you turn a wagon to L-2 during RVS - its stop being RVS. It worrying you don't think that

It certainly can end RVS, and it did in this instance, but it doesn't always. I find there are frighteningly little "always"es in the game of Mafia, but that aside the issue isn't that I don't think it ends RVS, it's that you expressed fear that Mafia would waltz in and hammer you. That kind of reaction makes sense for someone new to the game, and that's why I bothered explaining it earlier. Technically they could, but it would basically be suicidal of them to attempt it, so it's usually safe.

If you're NOT new though, then suddenly that whole thing looks manufactured and insincere. You'd have known by now that D1 quickhammers like that don't normally happen except in very niche situations, and even if it WERE to happen, it'd actually be a good thing because we'd most likely have found the scumteam!

[Radical Rat]

I never claimed I was new.

You didn't, but that doesn't change the essence of my point. I thought you were, based on having a newbie-like reaction to getting RVS wagoned, and having a very recent join date, and so I treated you as such. You didn't correct me then, but now that I know you aren't new I obviously am not going to treat you or your posts the same way.

VOTE: Juice

[Radical Rat]

Ausuka's frustration seems genuine to me, and Marci is blatantly trolling and egging them on.

Correct - this is the perceived motion. To me, town normally does not act in a behavior to cause so much disruption. Acting that way, then getting run up, only for someone (generally town) to then say "hey, this is kind of dumb" is a textbook scumplay to me. It gives them both independent town points while actually being on the same dependent team. It is not supposed to be SvS on first thought but behind the surface layer I think it becomes more probable than TvT. TvS is also probable but really dumb in the long run.

In the abstract sense, yes, clogging up a thread with nonsense that also separates the two partners is a potential scumstrat. In this particular case though I believe that Ausuka is just as frustrated as she presents herself to be, and that marci is feeding and encouraging that frustration on purpose. It could be for nefarious ends, it could just be that they enjoy it. But because Ausuka's reactions appear genuine, it rules out SvS in my mind. Either or neither could feasibly be scum, but probably not both. If I were told one of them MUST be I'd pick marci first, but for now I'd rather just move on and let other things play out.

1) Juice says xe's not new. However, you got the inkling that xe is new. So the thought process here is that because xe says xe is experienced - you are going by xyrs words rather than by the feeling you had? How do you actually know that Juice isn't new? I can tell you I'm new - are you going to believe that on a whim? It would be pretty inconsistent, right? It's the flip of the role that you just laid out.

It makes more sense to believe that I made an incorrect assumption than that Juice is lying about their experience level, particularly in a way that hurts xem. And no, I wouldn't believe you if you randomly said you're new because I can see your join date. A recent join date, like Juice's, isn't necessarily indicative of inexperience because they could have offsite experience, could be an alt, any number of things. But an old join date does explicitly remove the possibility of being new. You COULD say you haven't played in a long time, and are out of practice/don't remember theory, and then yeah I'd probably take you at your word there. I think it'd be somewhat of a dick move to refuse to believe either a claim of experience or inexperience, as well as it would be to misrepresent experience in the first place. I think it falls outside the scope of acceptable game-relevant lies to tell.

We start out with a naked pressure vote (coincidentally the worst way to pressure someone). Herta posts but then does not respond and then gets into an argument with Juice.
2) Herta doesn't need pressure anymore. We have 12 days left. ?????

3) Not to mention - the reaction in 7 pages was so bad that it made you okay with going for an E-2 vote?

It's not naked though. I clearly say it's because his posting looked weirdly self-conscious. And then me switching my vote to Juice is not in any way an exoneration of Herta? I move my vote to who I think is most likely to be scum, and right now that's Juice. Does that mean I think Herta is Town now? No. Does it mean I don't want pressure on Herta? No. All it means is that right now, in this moment, Juice is who I scumread the most.
And... yeah, I'm fine with an E-2 vote? I like E-2. It's the perfect balance of genuinely threatening, yet safe enough not to cause accidental claims or eliminations. The perfect place to sort people. Especially in a micro where E-2 is only three people, it's absurd to try to dance around it.

[Radical Rat]

The wagon hit E-1 only 5-10 posts later. That doesn't sound very safe to me.

And then it dissolved immediately, with Juice perfectly unharmed. That doesn't sound very dangerous to me.

[Radical Rat]

And so do other people - so when I accuse you of 'dropping' Herta. You may not 'mentally' drop it but now your naked pressure vote is gone so you have lost all avenues to pressure Herta...in order to join the leading wagon of the day. That doesn't sound very weird to you? You vote because someone you think is scum rather than voting to get information first - especially on Day 1?

I think you're being reductive and misrepresentative.
You're continuing to call it a naked pressure vote which is just factually incorrect; it may not have been fully dressed, but it was at least wearing a nice T-shirt. And there's also the insinuation that because I wanted to apply pressure, it wasn't a real vote. It very much was, the two aren't mutually exclusive. Voting my scumreads and getting information are also not mutually exclusive. I don't need to vote someone to observe and form reads, and I think the most informative way to use my vote is to put it on scum and watch how they and others react.

So no, that doesn't sound very weird to me

[Radical Rat]

My definition of a naked pressure vote would be a vote with no stated reason, places with the intent to apply pressure.
My vote did have a reason: the weird self-conscious vibes from the RVS posts. I said I wanted pressure because I did. That doesn't mean the pressure was meaningless because the vote was still serious, and I didn't think that was unclear.

[Radical Rat]

I did not, sorry. Been a bit scattered lately.

But I do still think so, yes, and as far as specificity, it's mostly the overall vibe. Like it's clearly getting under their skin that marci is dancing around the question and refusing to give a straight answer, and the escalation in frustration seems to gel with that as opposed to looking arbitrary and scripted.

Like if in the scumchat they'd agreed "Hey let's have a fight and clog up the thread" I wouldn't expect the kind of buildup and boiling over observed here, if that makes sense

[Radical Rat]

I don't really have the energy today to do anything super substantial, and in a bit of a grumpy mood, but I will chime in and say Juice looks worse by the moment, and I've never been a fan of arbitrarily dragging out days. If there's something that merits discussion or investigation, pursue that, but token stuff like "Day end bad" is pointless.

To elaborate on Juice somewhat it feels like xe's throwing everything at the wall and making up nonsense to justify it after. But I don't think xe actually expects it to work, at least not directly. I believe xyr strategy is to do so much inane bullshit that people think scum wouldn't play so haphazardly and loudly, and coast on that while also making it more difficult to engage with the game.

[Radical Rat]

I'm really quite grumpy about the self-hammer, like. I get it, you felt the wagon wasn't fair, but. At least make scum put in the work to finish you off, give us something readable to work with.

[Radical Rat]

Yes, your heart lies.

As much as I didn't really like your entrance... I can't possibly vote you after this, it's too good.

VOTE: marcistar
Still not convinced marci/Ausuka is SvS, but that is the angle Hiraki was pushing and he's dead. I don't see why they wouldn't leave him alive to continue to push that if marci and Ausuka are both Town, and I've already expressed who I think looks worse of the pair

[Radical Rat]

Maybe marci and Johnny are scum

whys ausuka always so bad at reading me

You're aware they're saying you're Town right?

[Radical Rat]

I think RR opening the day pushing that Marci killed Hiraki because his theory from early game was correct is really slimy when Hiraki had been pushing RR for like a long time

Pedit: Maybe you should've taken English classes at clown school

Yeah, that's fair. From my perspective, his push on me can't be relevant to the kill, so I was looking at who else he was pushing, but I of course have no way of proving that to you

[Radical Rat]

My thinking was that he was widely townread, yes, but that having a widely townread slot alive to push wagons on Town would be quite good for scum, and they could kill him later on once he stopped being useful. So I find it more likely scum felt threatened by him in some way, and while he was indeed pushing me the most verbally... his vote was on marci.

[Radical Rat]

Of course it isn't true always, but I think it is here, and I don't have much else to go on right now. Juice wagon is frustratingly uninformative because of xyr "playstyle," plus the self-hammer. By play alone, I townread most people alive here. Herta's entrance wasn't great, but the rest of his posting has been fine. Marci's the only one who doesn't seem to fit here, and it lines up with Hiraki's death, the only issue is that I don't really know who the partner could be. I'm obviously townreading someone I shouldn't be, but even so for now marci's the only one I'm comfortable voting.

[Radical Rat]

I'd like to know why juice? You didn't get at them specifically in your catch up.

This is the main one for me. It's a genuine probing question, upon seeing something that doesn't make sense to him. It's also worth noting that Herta was scumreading and voting Juice at this point, and as scum he would probably not be questioning a wagon he wanted to flip, so it reads more like actually trying to gauge Johnny than anything else.

[Radical Rat]

Yes, it could be fake. Anything could be fake. You could be faking this entire conversation, as could I. And I reserve the right to change my mind if he does something more overtly scummy later on, but for now I believe it.

[Radical Rat]

I think carrot face may be town

1. Happy scumday!
2. Who... who is carrot face?!

By the way, I will unironically write a haiku for anyone who can understands how to read marci and can explain it to me. If a haiku is not attractive enough I could be persuaded to do a whole sonnet or even an MS paint doodle xx

Sorry that was spose to be marci. Fingers slipped.

1. Why is marci carrot face and not the rabbit?
2. Why is marci Town?

[Radical Rat]

rodent (sorry, I just like that nickname too much, I hope you like it too RR)

It's a fun one, though it does get moderately confusing in games with either Roden or another rodent-based player. Which I have recently learned rabbits are not!

[Radical Rat]

I'm not claiming to have a perfectly logical infallible argument on anyone. I'm aware Herta could still be scum, and marci could still be Town. All I'm saying is that based on the limited information we have available right now, this is the best I have.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume scum killed Hiraki for a reason. He was a PR, but I didn't see anything that hinted at that in his ISO, so I don't think scum targeted him for that. So there must have been something in his play that scum didn't want him around for. I think the most likely reason is that he was onto something with marci, while the rest of the game had largely moved on. There could potentially be other reasons, yes, but that's what makes the most sense to me. If you've got other theories (aside from it being because of me, since I obviously will not be persuaded on those), I'd love to hear them and talk about them. If you've got a compelling reason Herta, or anyone else, is scum, talk to me about that.

The points you have against my arguments are reasonable, and I'm not disputing that. But in the absence of anything else, I still think this is the most likely case, in spite of the room for error.

[Radical Rat]

I can't really engage in full right now but didn't you say ausuka that my iso was terrible? It sounds like you don't really think so?

I hadn't really taken in aisa's recent posting, well haven't, but I will and think about it. I kinda just closed over it before which sometimes happens when there's complex thought or the appearance of such. I haven't even fully examined your recent posting but I saw the rad aisa question and it struck me on the surface if that makes sense.

I do think that but your more recent batch of posts was better. I am slightly conflicted on how to read you because I know your main and I have seen you a lot as one alignment. If I take that into account I think you are significantly townier than if I don't but from a regular player perspective your posts feel very easy to fake and the push on Juice especially isn't great

Would it help if I said I also know Herta's main? My read isn't a meta read, because I'm really not good at doing that beyond surface-level vibes, but I have played with him in the past via his main, and that does impact things, if not purposefully.

I didn't want to bring it up in case Herta was supposed to be a secret alt, and again, not actually meta reading here, but since you mentioned it...

[Radical Rat]

I didn't think it'd been 24 hours yet, whoops, but I haven't technically been prodded yet at least

[Radical Rat]

I'm mostly in the same position as before, though I do have a nervousness that Aisa might be pocketing me, I don't really want to confront that until there's more reason to suspect her otherwise

[Radical Rat]

1. Yes, I was wrong about Juice. So was half the game, and Juice was an anomaly by actively playing against the game, up to and including xyr self hammer. It's why I haven't put any effort into wagon analysis, Juice undermined whatever could have been learned by that by refusing to elaborate on anything when asked, and hammering xyrself instead of making someone else pull the trigger. I don't regret voting there, nor do I think there are any useful lessons to be learned. Had Juice played Mafia instead, xe probably would have lived for one, but if they hadn't and if it were my fault, yeah I probably would have stepped back to reevaluate things after.

2. You being the main alternative to Juice is kind of... the point? I don't understand how you being in danger is a refutation to the argument that you felt threatened.

3. You're right that I'm not really putting much effort into this game yet. Haven't found the spark that motivates me to get serious yet. However I disagree that I'm just doing whatever the easy thing is. For instance, if you're such an "easy" push, why isn't anything happening? Seems like it'd be easier to take the hint and pick on Herta or Meg, yeah?

[Radical Rat]

Yes, I was wrong about Juice. So was half the game, and Juice was an anomaly by actively playing against the game, up to and including xyr self hammer. It's why I haven't put any effort into wagon analysis, Juice undermined whatever could have been learned by that by refusing to elaborate on anything when asked, and hammering xyrself instead of making someone else pull the trigger. I don't regret voting there, nor do I think there are any useful lessons to be learned. Had Juice played Mafia instead, xe probably would have lived for one, but if they hadn't and if it were my fault, yeah I probably would have stepped back to reevaluate things after.

Juice was an easy push for scum to make because xe acted in such a silly way. I think there were definitely scum pushing that wagon

Or they saw what was happening and knowing xe would likely go down without them pushing it stayed off of it. Actually now that I'm thinking about it, perhaps I should be going back and looking for unnatural defenses of Juice... I'll follow up on this later

[Radical Rat]

Today is my last day of work for the week, and I am making an official promise to get in here and effort properly over the weekend once I have more spoons on offer

[Radical Rat]

On a reread of D1, I'm mostly just more confused. I don't actually think it would have been that hard for scum to push him today if they'd wanted to. His argument with me was pedantic and just generally bad, and the comment on expecting Juice to flip Town could probably have been spun as a TMI thing were they so inclined.

Other than him, the only people who seemed to think Juice might be Town were Meg and marci. Which is interesting since Meg was on the wagon, while continuing to engage with Juice as though xe were just misguided Town. However, this is also a problem I have sometimes, and have been wrongly called scum for it before, so I'm hesitant to jump on it outright.

I still keep coming back to marci though. Most of their posting is like. Putting on an appearance of content without actually doing much, it's supported by the Hiraki kill, and I just can't find anyone looking worse.

[Radical Rat]

On a reread of D1, I'm mostly just more confused. I don't actually think it would have been that hard for scum to push him today if they'd wanted to. His argument with me was pedantic and just generally bad, and the comment on expecting Juice to flip Town could probably have been spun as a TMI thing were they so inclined.

Other than him, the only people who seemed to think Juice might be Town were Meg and marci. Which is interesting since Meg was on the wagon, while continuing to engage with Juice as though xe were just misguided Town. However, this is also a problem I have sometimes, and have been wrongly called scum for it before, so I'm hesitant to jump on it outright.

I still keep coming back to marci though. Most of their posting is like. Putting on an appearance of content without actually doing much, it's supported by the Hiraki kill, and I just can't find anyone looking worse.

I didn't peg you for such a heavy NKA user! For what it's worth I agree Hiraki was pushable, I'm not sure why he was the kill and I have just decided I'm not going to let that influence me too much. If you're confused as to why Hiraki was the kill, maybe just let that go?

Talk to me about why marci looks worse that everyone else to you?
Aus I can see you townreading. I'm lowkey thinking Meg is town. I'm confused as to why you seem so certain that Herta and Johnny look better.

Honestly, I don't normally lean so heavily on NKA, I just feel like there isn't enough of anything else to go off of.
With marci, it's like. The argument with Ausuka is mostly fluff, but as I've said before looks worse for her than it does Ausuka. Kill doesn't make sense to me if none of Hiraki's scumreads were accurate, because he could have been pushed himself, or simply exploited to push wagons for scum to safely sheep if he was completely wrong. And then in general, marci's posting doesn't really seem geared toward sorting or progressing the game, except for her post-prod wall. There isn't really anything that screams scum at me, but there's enough that doesn't scream Town.

Regarding Herta, it really isn't that strong a read, but with the exception of his RVS posting, his thoughts and reads feel real. I highlighted questioning Johnny's Juice read in particular because it's the kind of post scum has no reason to make, but the rest of his posts also just look... fine. Nothing to really rouse suspicion beyond his opening yet.

Johnny's catch-up was good I think, I'm always partial to that kind of stream of consciousness deal because I think it's hard for scum to effectively fake. And since then kind of a similar deal. Posts look believable enough, nothing in particular jumps out at me yet.

I'd really like to see more from both of them, but then that's a bit hypocritical of me with how my activity's been lately. We can't ALL just do the wait and see approach, but I just don't really see any threads worth pulling so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Radical Rat]

asuska is scum question mark

Why?

[Radical Rat]

asuska is scum question mark

Why?

[Radical Rat]

I think Johnny feels scummy actually but I might be biased because he was scum last game

Anything in particular making him look scummy for you?

[Radical Rat]

I would say the Marco push and the Herta read aren't really scummy independently but play into a worrying trend. I think the part where he says Meg is the most likely player to be scum but spends his time pushing other people is just bad.

This is a good catch actually, and I'd be very interested in hearing Johnny's reasoning here

[Radical Rat]

I'll follow if we run out of time, but I'd prefer to hear him speak first

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Herta

Does anyone think this would be a bad vote?
Does anyone think this would live until endgame?

I'm going to trust Meg on Not-Johnny for now, but I'm not sold on Herta here.